[HN Gopher] 5k Year Old Bog Oak Table: Digging up 4k-year-old tr...
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       5k Year Old Bog Oak Table: Digging up 4k-year-old trees for
       furniture
        
       Author : WuTangCFO
       Score  : 279 points
       Date   : 2021-03-09 08:27 UTC (14 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (blog.lostartpress.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (blog.lostartpress.com)
        
       | zenbane wrote:
       | That table is stunning, fascinating article. I wonder what the
       | supply of these logs is like and whether we will see "Real Fake
       | Bog Log Bedframe" coming out of the black market shops of Asia
       | any time soon.
        
         | dylan604 wrote:
         | Probably already exists on Amazon
        
         | panzagl wrote:
         | Old growth wood is physically different from what you'll find
         | at a regular lumberyard, so I would like to think no, but I'm
         | sure it will be turned into marketing speak eventually.
        
       | yitchelle wrote:
       | While the furniture is beautiful, (that cabinet is out of this
       | world), do you really need bog oak to give it that beauty? Can't
       | it be manufactured to the same beauty using wood from today's
       | trees?
        
         | TylerE wrote:
         | One case where old wood is actually useful is musical
         | instruments. Old growth wood is much denser than modern farmed
         | wood, and this does (usually Good) good things to the sound.
        
         | bradford wrote:
         | > Can't it be manufactured to the same beauty using wood from
         | today's trees?
         | 
         | I work with wood, and I'd like to think the answer is yes.
         | While bog oak does have a special beauty to it (I can't think
         | of another wood that's similar), most wood species have their
         | own special qualities, and I wouldn't say that bog oak is
         | inherently any more beautiful than walnut/cherry or many other
         | varieties.
         | 
         | Bog oak _is_ notable for its rarity and difficulty in handling.
         | This drives up the cost and makes it coveted. But beauty really
         | is in the eye of the beholder.
        
         | madengr wrote:
         | No. I cut down a 5,000 YO tree and the table I made out of it
         | turned out great. Also, the Chinese will buy the sawdust as a
         | libido enhancer.
        
         | anonAndOn wrote:
         | While artificial petrifaction is possible in a lab, I doubt
         | it's practical at full log scale. You are only going to get
         | this kind of timber from the right anaerobic conditions and (x)
         | thousand years.
        
       | oflannabhra wrote:
       | Lost Art Press is worth a follow in general. If you're ever near
       | Cincinnati, I highly recommend checking out their store front.
       | They focus on keeping traditional woodworking books in print, but
       | they also do a lot of woodworking (chair making especially) in
       | their shop.
        
         | deberon wrote:
         | They produce a series of books about "Anarchist" woodworking
         | which I recommend. In fact, they released the workbench book
         | free of charge as a pdf:
         | 
         | https://blog.lostartpress.com/2020/07/07/updated-anarchists-...
         | 
         | They are my go-to for woodworking reading material.
        
       | hdjfkkrrn wrote:
       | Saw a documentary about ultra rich people houses in London.
       | 
       | Another similar thing is water logged trees - they pull trees
       | which sat for centuries in Slovakia's lakes. They fill the cracks
       | with metal (bronze).
       | 
       | A bonus point it's that the table becomes a "story".
       | 
       | Pretty much everything in the house needs to have a "story",
       | which is more important than the actual thing.
        
         | smoe wrote:
         | I'm far from ultra rich, but I like that many of the items in
         | my apartment have at least little bit of story behind them or
         | their makers and are not just being purely functional or
         | decorative. Not that I feel the need to tell the stories to
         | anyone, but at least to me, this gives the space a lot more
         | soul, than if I just had hired an interior designer filling it
         | with stuff or got complete IKEA sets.
         | 
         | I live a fairly "minimalist" lifestyle (I don't subscribe to
         | the ideas of minimalism, the Swedish "Lagom", "just the right
         | amount", is closer), so I can spend more on fewer items,
         | maintain them and have more time selecting, making or
         | commissioning them.
        
         | noir_lord wrote:
         | > which is more important than the actual thing.
         | 
         | When you can already buy the best possible thing then the story
         | is what matters.
         | 
         | > "Even the dog wouldn't--" "But humans will, Mr. Bent," said
         | Moist. "And therein lies genius. I think he makes most of his
         | money on the mustard, but there's a man who can sell sizzle,
         | Mr. Bent. And that is a seller's market." - Making Money - Sir
         | Terry Pratchett.
        
       | dylan604 wrote:
       | When moving day comes around, I'm guessing you have to offer more
       | than just beer & pizza when it comes to moving a 43' table.
        
         | quesera wrote:
         | And 43' of table with the density of ebony..!
         | 
         | From the article: 72 lbs/ft^3. Estimating the table width at
         | 6', and thickness at 2", that would be a total weight of 3096
         | lbs. Plus a healthy non-zero for the legs and other supports.
         | 
         | If you carry the tabletop (legs and trusses removed) with 24
         | people, 12 on a side, one every 4 feet, that would be 129 lbs
         | each. OSHA would not approve.
         | 
         | You could probably find 24 people at a woodworking school who
         | are up for the challenge. It might be harder to find a place to
         | put a 43' table in the first place!
        
           | hu3 wrote:
           | For metric system folks: 129 lbs is roughly 58.5 kg of mass
           | per person to lift.
        
             | dylan604 wrote:
             | Metric system conversion should not be difficult, however,
             | I recently learned it has been made convoluted.
             | 
             | Attempting to find out the per gram price of something
             | bought in a kilogram bundle, I simply divided the kilo
             | price by 1000. This is where it got confusing. I was told
             | there are only 985 grams in a kilo. Me: huh?? It's
             | literally the definition of the word kilogram, 1000 grams.
             | 
             | Fucked up maths: 1kilo = 2.2lbs * 16oz * 28g = ~985g
             | 
             | Further discussion on 1oz = 28g and least significant digit
             | only made matters worse. Apparently, this is the standard
             | on purchasing of items sold in kilograms.
        
               | Dylan16807 wrote:
               | Who told you this? I can't find anything talking about
               | 985 grams.
        
               | dylan604 wrote:
               | The people selling things in kilo bundles do not
               | appreciate names being used. While there is no NDA in
               | place, repurcussions are more severe than NDA's could
               | dream. Silly questions like this are also not condoned.
        
               | mkl wrote:
               | > Apparently, this is the standard on purchasing of items
               | sold in kilograms.
               | 
               | That sounds like nonsense. Standard where? What items? In
               | countries that just use the metric system, there would be
               | no conversion to pounds and ounces (most people would
               | have to look up how to do it).
        
               | dylan604 wrote:
               | Hello logic, meet brick wall. Enjoy the conversation.
               | 
               | Lots of in between the lines intentionally left for the
               | reader. No, I'm not in a country that normally uses kilo
               | for weight. There are not many things sold by the kilo in
               | non-metric using countries, but some items are
               | regardless.
               | 
               | Trust me, I've already had this argument until I was blue
               | in the face. It doesn't change the fact that this still
               | occurs.
        
           | dylan604 wrote:
           | Does OSHA have any say of something occurring in the UK
           | though?
           | 
           | One of the image captions states 18 people carried a single
           | slab, so there's no way 24 would carry the full table, even
           | without doing the maths.
        
             | quesera wrote:
             | Naturally OSHA is not relevant, nor are feet or pounds, in
             | the UK.
             | 
             | But I feel fairly confident that there are UK-localized
             | versions of each.
             | 
             | > One of the image captions states 18 people carried a
             | single slab, so there's no way 24 would carry the full
             | table, even without doing the maths.
             | 
             | That does not follow. 18 people make many carrying jobs
             | easier, but they are not necessarily all required.
             | 
             | However, since the four tabletop planks are not joined into
             | a single piece, it is clear that 12 people on a side is not
             | a reasonable approach.
             | 
             | If the tabletop is removed from the support structure, then
             | 12 people make multiple trips with each plank, at 65 lbs
             | per person, per plank.
             | 
             | If the tabletop is _not_ removed from the support
             | structure, and we conservatively estimate legs etc at 50%
             | of the tabletop weight, for a total weight just about 2.3
             | (US /short) tons ... you would need 66 people, properly
             | distributed, to stay within the OSHA recommended lifting
             | maximum of 70 lbs each.
             | 
             | To get 66 people around that table, they would need to be
             | about 3 feet apart, which is just barely adequate working
             | space.
             | 
             | Fortunately we don't move things like this using people.
             | Not even in the UK!
        
         | lmilcin wrote:
         | I would say, in case of this table, "if you have to ask for
         | price you can't afford it".
         | 
         | Just the raw wood material probably costs a fortune. Given the
         | fact there aren't many people that can produce anything out of
         | it I assume that the prices are astronomical.
        
           | samdb wrote:
           | People have been volunteering their time and they are still
           | raising PS200,000 to get the table completed.
        
       | wcarss wrote:
       | forgive me for pulling such a large quote out, but it just glows:
       | 
       | > "Don't ever underestimate a craftsman," he emphasizes, "because
       | they're highly disciplined, highly trained, very determined
       | individuals. I'm a real advocate of traditional apprenticeships.
       | I don't think you could be good at this job other than by doing
       | it as an apprenticeship. Doing it as an apprenticeship teaches
       | you humility. One of the people I worked with said, 'Somebody who
       | never made a mistake never made anything.' Processing bog oak
       | went so wrong, so often; you could take the view that it's a
       | waste of time. Or you can say, 'I've applied myself to this in
       | the wrong way, so what can I do to do it right?' A craftsman
       | accepts that they've made a mistake. Then, rather than saying,
       | 'That's a stupid idea,' or 'This is impossible,' they say 'What
       | did I do wrong and what have I got to do to make it work?'"
       | 
       |  _chef 's kiss_ this is sage and serious advice, well told
        
       | tpmx wrote:
       | This is obscene. Don't do this.
        
       | hawkjo wrote:
       | So, how do we find out when they put it on display at Ely
       | Cathedral?
        
       | bombcar wrote:
       | If I remember something similar is done with "logging" the Great
       | Lakes for sunken old-growth wood.
        
       | 52-6F-62 wrote:
       | Anyone with any knowledge know if bog wood like this oak has been
       | used as a tone wood?
       | 
       | Really interesting read I didn't expect to see this morning.
        
         | VBprogrammer wrote:
         | My friend has a very nice spalted swamp ash custom guitar. I
         | forget the name of the builder but it's pretty rare to go along
         | with it.
         | 
         | As for tone wood, its very existence is mired in controversy.
         | This is probably not the time or place to get into it!
        
         | ejs wrote:
         | I've used bog oak for a bunch of things, it behaves about the
         | same as white oak to me - so I doubt it would be great for tone
         | wood uses.
        
           | 52-6F-62 wrote:
           | Thanks for the behaviour note--it sent me on a hunt! Of
           | course, before I'd asked I hadn't searched up whether or not
           | it's been used in instruments.
           | 
           | Seems like the consensus is mixed. It might be a sleeper tone
           | wood for a specifically-tuned instrument?
           | 
           | Either way, the results can be quite pretty...
           | 
           | https://www.brentrup.com/page2/page2.html
           | 
           | https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/21176740531/in/album-.
           | ..
           | 
           | https://reverb.com/item/9428705-brand-new-avalon-a1-oak-
           | cara...
           | 
           | One of the criticisms leveed against it was in line with your
           | dismissal of white oak--because of it's structure there's
           | more damping than a rosewood but it's otherwise bright just
           | with a fast decay. So I suppose that lends itself well to
           | specific playing styles. Not a standout (aside from maybe
           | looks and rarity), but not useless either.
           | 
           | Found a clip: https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/21176740
           | 531/in/album-...
        
       | hbarka wrote:
       | This is all so fascinating. The idea of using wood thousands of
       | years old. The craft of the people doing it. The realization that
       | there are colonies of trees still standing, yes still standing,
       | that are hundreds of years old.
        
         | mikeyouse wrote:
         | There are trees still standing in parts of the world that there
         | are several thousand years old. Some of the oldest trees in
         | California's redwood groves took root before the Roman Empire.
         | E.g:
         | 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stagg_(tree)
        
       | danans wrote:
       | Old growth woods like these are obviously unbelievably unique
       | (and expensive).
       | 
       | But even if you can't find or afford anything like that, if you
       | are ever remodeling, it's worth reusing weathered but intact
       | lumber from your house when possible.
       | 
       | I pulled and reused about 50 ft of existing redwood 2x6 off my
       | house recently as part of a remodel, refinished it with shou sugi
       | ban (Japanese wood burning technique) and built a new gate
       | structure with it, and it turned out beautiful.
        
         | evanlivingston wrote:
         | This advice should have a very large disclaimer.
         | 
         | A majority of old finish lumber in the U.S. has been painted
         | with lead based paint. Unfortunately the safest thing to do
         | with this lumber is throw it away.
         | 
         | Also in many homes floorboards have been covered with asbestos
         | containing adhesives when newer floors were laid on top.
        
           | cosmodisk wrote:
           | While we on this: I noticed lots of interior design projects,
           | where old pallets are used( Euro Pallet being the most
           | popular). They are all treated with chemicals to withstand
           | harsh environments and definetly shouldn't be used indoors.
        
             | driverdan wrote:
             | This isn't true. Most pallets are heat treated now and can
             | be distinguished by "HT" on the side.
             | 
             | You should still be careful about selecting and working
             | with pallet wood. They can be subject to hazardous spills
             | and can have random debris embedded in them that will
             | damage blades.
        
               | tvb12 wrote:
               | I think this site was on HN a few days/weeks ago:
               | https://www.1001pallets.com/pallet-safety/
               | 
               | I checked a few of the pallets where I work; they're heat
               | treated, no chemical treatment. But! While I'd feel safe
               | using the pallets used to ship corrugate bundles, the
               | pallets used to ship the sketchy drums of mystery
               | chemicals look identical and end up in the same trailers
               | headed off to some pallet recycler.
               | 
               | I keep forgetting to check the CHEP pallets.
        
               | evanlivingston wrote:
               | Also, dust from certain species of wood can be quite bad
               | for you. If I didn't know the origin and history of a
               | piece of wood, I'd likely avoid working with it.
        
           | danans wrote:
           | Good point. My house's original wood is from 1998, so no risk
           | of lead paint. Even in old houses, a lot of framing lumber
           | was never painted though, so it should be safe to use.
        
       | tristor wrote:
       | I had never heard of bog oak before, but this material is
       | absolutely stunning. I really wish there was more appreciation of
       | proper heirloom-quality furniture and things in general. I think
       | it's part of making living more ecological, and it's a form of
       | generational wealth. Unfortunately we live in an era of cheapest
       | possible items, and disposal of things when they go out of style.
       | Something like this never goes out of style.
        
         | hellbannedguy wrote:
         | I was watching that show called Antique Archeology.
         | 
         | It's basically two grifters from Iowa who take the good stuff
         | from hoarders, and collectors.
         | 
         | This one guy (Jersey John) pull out a 1886 Windsor chair, and
         | acting like he's doing the owner a favor by offered the guy
         | $25. The owner shot back with, "I can get $40 at a yard sale?"
         | 
         | Anyhoo--it just reminded me how far we have gotten away from
         | buying beautiful handmade things that will last forever, and
         | going with junk make in the cheapest country.
        
           | mywittyname wrote:
           | People have different tastes. Just because something is old
           | or handmade, that doesn't make it desirable.
           | 
           | Plus, 140 year old furniture takes specialized maintenance if
           | you want them to last. It's kind of expensive to properly
           | maintain or refinish antique furniture. Chairs, especially,
           | need proper maintenance, they experience much more wear than
           | something like a chest, and an improper fix can destroy it.
        
             | rabf wrote:
             | Older furniture can be much easier to repair its just a
             | shame that the knowledge is somewhat less commanplace than
             | it once was. Shellac finishes are a known quantity, easy to
             | touch up or remove an re-apply. The animal glues used in
             | woodwork of the past also allows joints to be easily
             | disassembled for repair and often you can just reactivate
             | the existing glue with some moisture and heat.
        
               | mywittyname wrote:
               | Of you break a spindle or a stretcher, especially at a
               | tendon, then doing a proper fix does take skill and
               | specialized tools. Disassembly really isn't an issue,
               | because, like you said, some heat and pressure will
               | release most joints with ease.
               | 
               | But actually fixing a break does take skill. If you're
               | _lucky_ the pieces will mate back together seamlessly and
               | you can use wood glue and maybe some wax to get the piece
               | looking like new and just reassemble them. But if the
               | break is not clean, or there has been a previous repair
               | (maybe involving screws or nails) then replicating a
               | piece is pretty difficult. Turning a new piece requires a
               | lathe, color matching stains is definitely a skill you
               | acquire through experience.
               | 
               | Chips on surfaces and the like pretty much require you to
               | have a decent collection of veneer on hand, in order to
               | luck out and find something with similar grain patterns.
               | 
               | I do a fair bit of antiquing and (proper) refurbishing of
               | old furniture (not 'upcycling'). It's not for the faint
               | of heart. It's a time-consuming labor of love that's akin
               | to maintaining a classic car.
        
           | sigstoat wrote:
           | > it just reminded me how far we have gotten away from buying
           | beautiful handmade things that will last forever, and going
           | with junk make in the cheapest country.
           | 
           | selection bias. all the cheap junk your grandparents bought
           | was disposed of before you were born. you never even saw it.
        
         | Mediterraneo10 wrote:
         | One reason for less interest today in heirloom products that
         | last forever: falling birthrates often mean that just one
         | person is inheriting all the possessions left behind by
         | multiple people. No surprise that that one person doesn't have
         | that much room in his or her home, especially since sometimes
         | younger generations are likely to have smaller living spaces
         | than their parents.
        
         | MisterBastahrd wrote:
         | I first encountered bog oak (morta) in the world of tobacco
         | pipes. Turns out that some pipe makers have been using the
         | material for quite a while because the grain patterns are
         | stunning.
        
         | chrisseaton wrote:
         | Ikea has made millennials think furniture is disposable.
        
           | quesera wrote:
           | That's a shallow dismissal.
           | 
           | IKEA has been around longer than millennials have.
           | 
           | And some IKEA products last forever.
        
           | SavantIdiot wrote:
           | I think that's a bit misplaced, as millenials are in their
           | 40's now, so they probably don't just throw things away like
           | you assume. But also...
           | 
           | I used to live out in the woods and had to haul my garbage to
           | the dump every few months. (I didn't want to burn plastic,
           | like some of my crazy neighbors did.)
           | 
           | The city dump changes seasonally. After Christmas, there are
           | piles of old toys that were replaced. After summer, there are
           | hundreds of discarded blue-plastic kid pools. After fall
           | there is a TON of furniture. I have no idea why: do people
           | buy more furniture in the fall in preparation for holidays?
           | 
           | Anyway, I see more cheap furniture from Target and department
           | stores than I do IKEA. Ikea is inexpensive furniture, but
           | vastly better than Walmart, Target, Sam's Club, etc. So I
           | didn't see a lot of IKEA at the dump.
        
             | TylerE wrote:
             | > After fall there is a TON of furniture. I have no idea
             | why: do people buy more furniture in the fall in
             | preparation for holidays
             | 
             | Students moving into new places/moving out and going home.
        
             | dfxm12 wrote:
             | _I have no idea why: do people buy more furniture in the
             | fall in preparation for holidays?_
             | 
             | Veteran's Day furniture sales :)
        
             | sillyquiet wrote:
             | yeah, spot-on, it's less IKEA and more the cheap assemble-
             | it-yourself knock-offs you find at Target and Wal-Mart and
             | the like that gives that kind of furniture its poor
             | reputation. IKEA furniture I bought a decade or more ago is
             | _still_ in great shape.
        
               | mywittyname wrote:
               | Quality IKEA furniture is made of solid fir/pine/spruce
               | and is finished with a resin paint that resists
               | scratching pretty (though, pine is still soft and dents
               | easily). If you put it together using some wood glue, it
               | will hold up for years.
               | 
               | IKEA absolutely sells cheap furniture made of laminated
               | MDF, and it's often half the price of the quality stuff.
               | And it's not fair to lambast IKEA for sacrificing quality
               | to hit a price-point when they do allow people to pay
               | more to better stuff.
               | 
               | The step up from the good IKEA tier is a big step. Even
               | cheap hardwoods like oak are a lot more expensive than
               | s/p/f. And that's not even getting into how much more
               | wear hardwoods put on tooling or the weight difference.
        
               | novok wrote:
               | Half the time it's not even MDF anymore, it's just
               | laminated reinforced cardboard with chunks of MDF here
               | and there for screw points. What I find really sad is how
               | a lot of expensive furniture also uses MDF.
        
               | mywittyname wrote:
               | Solid wood is _expensive_ and it does have a lot of
               | seasonal movement. I do some furniture building and there
               | 's something to be said for how workable MDF is. It
               | doesn't warp, it's dead simple to cut through, it's
               | pretty light, and it's _cheap_.
               | 
               | If it's used correctly, MDF is a fine material for
               | furniture. The key to quality pieces with it seems to be
               | in the finish. A piece that's primed, painted with high
               | quality, durable paint, then sealed/lacquered will last a
               | good long while.
        
           | ballenf wrote:
           | I wonder if the original purchaser of that antique dresser
           | you love would have chosen a nice Ikea one if given the
           | choice? (Especially if you adjusted the prices for relative
           | purchasing power.)
        
           | minikites wrote:
           | We're not stupid or tasteless, we just don't have enough
           | money to buy furniture that is actually nice. Also, it's not
           | like we can afford to own homes so Ikea futons in a studio
           | apartment it is.
        
           | zo1 wrote:
           | Or that you don't need to own it - you can just rent it...
           | Isn't that the "exxagerated" trope regarding that these days?
           | 
           | Don't need to own a car, just use Uber! Don't need to own
           | your servers, just provision (rent) them from AWS! etc.
           | 
           | Wonder when it'll apply to furniture?
        
       | dzdt wrote:
       | I am amazed in an article about bog oak no mention of
       | dendrochronology. Scientists have been collecting and matching up
       | tree rings from samples including especially bog oaks. This
       | builds an unbroken chain of ring width measurements back to the
       | last ice age. It lets wood pieces be dated to calendar year
       | resolution, serves as the basis for calibration of radiocarbon
       | dating curves, and enables study of past climate conditions.
        
       | toomanybeersies wrote:
       | In New Zealand, there are old swamplands filled with swamp Kauri.
       | Around a year ago, construction workers found a 16 m (52 ft) long
       | log which had been buried underground for 40,000 years [1]
       | 
       | They used to dig up $200 million worth of timber a year, mostly
       | exported to China, until the government cracked down on exports.
       | It's illegal to export unfinished native timber, so exporters
       | exploited a loophole by cutting the trunks into "tabletops", or
       | adding basic carvings and labelling them as "totem poles", and
       | then shipping the logs to China for further processing.
       | 
       | [1] https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/giant-ngawha-swamp-kauri-
       | log-d...
        
         | tomrod wrote:
         | The limits of regulation. There is no way to plug all
         | loopholes.
         | 
         | That said, the added labor ensures a more finished product is
         | exported. Was that the intent, or was the intent to force the
         | wood to stay in NZ?
        
           | CPLX wrote:
           | The intent of finished goods laws like this almost invariably
           | is to protect domestic jobs. Many other countries have
           | variations on these type of laws.
           | 
           | The concern is that a raw material export based economy is
           | bad for the people who live in the country because most of
           | the value is extracted from the country and only the most
           | unskilled jobs are left.
           | 
           | This type of resource extraction was a hallmark of the
           | colonial era, which is one reason governments are very wary
           | of it.
        
           | minitoar wrote:
           | Certainly the former, but clearly not in the spirit of it.
           | However as long as the tax man got his share maybe that's all
           | that matters. Presumably the more finished product is taxed
           | higher.
        
             | lostlogin wrote:
             | Not here in NZ. The wetlands were being plundered and
             | trashed with all the raw logs shipped to China. The tax
             | wasn't the issue, it was getting paid.
        
             | TheIronYuppie wrote:
             | Both the letter of the law and the spirit seem to point to
             | just using the regulation around finished furniture as a
             | way to limit over harvesting. Why do you see it
             | differently?
        
           | aantix wrote:
           | Lawmakers are slow and playing defense all of the time.
           | You're always a step behind when you have to react to moves.
        
           | weregiraffe wrote:
           | >The limits of regulation. There is no way to plug all
           | loopholes.
           | 
           | Sure there is. Just ban export of wood and wooden items.
        
             | tomrod wrote:
             | Then you find wood called "cellulose products" and the
             | cycle starts again. It's impossible to limit creativity,
             | and also why would a government want to pursue a ban as it
             | impacts negatively woodworkers?
        
               | weregiraffe wrote:
               | >Then you find wood called "cellulose products" and the
               | cycle starts again.
               | 
               | Inventing new words doesn't magically absolve you of
               | crimes, you know.
        
               | tomrod wrote:
               | Actually it does. Consider "bribe" versus "campaign
               | donor." "Execution" versus "murder". Many cases exist.
               | But that is beside the point.
               | 
               | Laws have to be specific, and that is the issue. If you
               | can perform a minimal treatment to the object under the
               | law, then it can be transmuted under the law and the
               | spirit of the regulation is sidestepped.
        
               | tptacek wrote:
               | A bribe is a donation made with an overt expectation of
               | quid pro quo.
               | 
               | A murder is an unlawful killing.
        
               | tomrod wrote:
               | The points stand. Campaign donations can have
               | undocumented quid pro quos. Legality is what we agree it
               | is, so if some consider an execution unlawful then it is
               | murder. Consider how many innocents given death penalty
               | and exonerated earlier (for a simple case, Salem witch
               | trials).
        
               | shuntress wrote:
               | Laws cannot be specific for this exact reason.
               | 
               | Reason, judgement, and consensus must be part of the
               | process.
               | 
               | To ban the export of unprocessed domestic wood, is it
               | preferable to pre-define and include every possible
               | "process" or is it better to have judges who asses
               | whether any given would-be export is "processed"?
               | 
               | Also, lets skip the argument of regulatory
               | capture/neglect by just agreeing that government
               | transparency/accessibility and voter enfranchisement are
               | critically important to maintaining any reasonable
               | consensus-based system.
        
               | mellavora wrote:
               | I really want to agree with you; this is how law should
               | work (and why "law is like software" analogies are so
               | fundamentally wrong, software doesn't make judgement
               | calls). The problem is that people are involved, which
               | means some of the judges will show poor judgement,
               | including possibly okay'ing something if their friends do
               | it but not if other do, or other less obviously unfair
               | things.
               | 
               | I don't see a solution; the obvious choice of trying to
               | make the law more specific and thus less reliant on
               | judgement gets us back to the idea you are opposing.
        
           | SavantIdiot wrote:
           | Yes, but still better than no regulations. It's an arms race.
        
             | tomrod wrote:
             | Why is that better, specific to this instance?
        
               | jayd16 wrote:
               | I would venture to guess the regulation, weak as it was,
               | still slowed the exports.
        
               | BurningFrog wrote:
               | Right, but I'd argue this export was beneficial, both to
               | NZ and China.
        
               | tomrod wrote:
               | I would imagine so, if only a minor amount. Seems like it
               | increased the price I would gather, unless the
               | international market for unique wood doesn't behave as
               | I'm speculating :)
        
           | sandworm101 wrote:
           | There is also an environmental aspect. Limits on the export
           | of unfinished wood/logs ensures that the wood isn't being
           | sold to become firewood.
           | 
           | Firewood is a thing. Something like 8-10% of UK electricity
           | (2017) came from firewood harvested in the US.
           | 
           | https://www.pri.org/stories/2018-06-20/uk-s-move-away-
           | coal-m...
        
             | alisonkisk wrote:
             | Seems like another case of "this should have been a tax
             | instead of an easily circumventable kverly-specific
             | regulation".
        
             | lostlogin wrote:
             | The wood dug out of swamps in NZ is far too valuable to be
             | firewood, but wrecking wetland does have a massive negative
             | impact.
             | 
             | It's worth googling images of swamp kauri if woodworking is
             | your thing, the logs are truely massive.
        
               | brabel wrote:
               | I did just that... and found this interesting article
               | about swamp kauri and how they helped understand what
               | happened last time the Earth's magnetic poles reversed,
               | 42,000 years ago: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-
               | advocate/news/ancient-no...
        
               | njarboe wrote:
               | The Earth's magnetic poles last permanently reversed
               | about 780,000 years ago. The magnetic event that happened
               | ~41,000-42,000 years ago is called the Laschamps
               | excursion. An excursion is when the magnetic field gets
               | very weak, becomes non-dipolar, but then returns to the
               | original polarity that the field was before the
               | excursion. Occasionally durning these excursions the
               | field flips directions and becomes stable in the opposite
               | direction. That did not happen for the Laschamps. Many of
               | these excursions have occurred since the last reversal of
               | the field.
               | 
               | The article you linked to is a bit woo-woo, especially
               | with all the Douglas Adam's stuff and the number 42. The
               | article did not link to the scientific paper, which is an
               | interesting read. It seems to be open access, so check it
               | out[1].
               | 
               | [1]https://science.sciencemag.org/content/371/6531/811
        
         | lostlogin wrote:
         | For those that aren't aware, there was also a scandal when the
         | main fuel line for Auckland airport was ruptured by a digger
         | looking for swamp kauri. To make it all more complicated, the
         | company that did it had a director married to a high ranking
         | MP. It all got murky fast.
         | 
         | https://thestandard.org.nz/the-strange-case-of-oravida-and-t...
        
         | itronitron wrote:
         | So the job market in NZ for chainsaw artists is picking up?
        
       | agustif wrote:
       | kay, can't delete now, stand corrected lol. Sorry for random rant
        
         | sambroner wrote:
         | The article is specifically about digging up old trees that
         | were found in bogs.
        
       | 11thEarlOfMar wrote:
       | Though not as astonishingly aged, the Brewery Gulch Inn in
       | Mendcino, Ca. is paneled with lumber from 'sinker logs' that were
       | lodged in the silt of the nearby Big River for ~150 years. The
       | mineralization has created color variations otherwise not
       | naturally seen [0][1].
       | 
       | [0] https://www.brewerygulchinn.com/the-history-of-the-inn
       | 
       | [1]
       | https://media.expedia.com/hotels/1000000/900000/894100/89401...
        
       | simonebrunozzi wrote:
       | I didn't know what "Bog Oak" was, so I found this [0]: an
       | interesting explanation of how these trunks are preserved over
       | many years.
       | 
       | [0]: https://davorinmortapipes.com/what-is-abonos-morta/
        
       | jahlove wrote:
       | Can someone explain how all the planks of the bog oak fit
       | together so perfectly? The article says go to their instagram for
       | details but I'm not really getting a whole lot when I click on
       | individual photos.
        
         | dahdum wrote:
         | It looks like they cut a single 43ft board from the oak, then
         | cut that into 4 planks for the kiln and milling process. After
         | that completed they would join them back together. You lose at
         | least an 1/8" for the blade width plus whatever they had to
         | trim due to cupping, but that could be very difficult to see in
         | the final top.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | quesera wrote:
         | The planks are expertly milled to fit together perfectly. No
         | doubt this required extra handwork due to the density and
         | length of the planks.
         | 
         | It's usually done by machine, but the traditional process is
         | manual of course.
        
         | kevinpet wrote:
         | I haven't seen their page, but I've seen this kind of thing
         | before. After lining up approximately where things should fit,
         | one piece is cut in a smooth curve just back far enough to
         | remove the live edge. The other piece is cut to match that.
         | This can be done using router templates. IIRC there's some
         | trickiness with the size of the router bearings / guides to
         | account for cutting on one side vs. the other.
         | 
         | For the scale they are doing, they might be able to set up a
         | more customized solution. For example, a router attached to
         | some guide tracks like a
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantograph
        
         | etrautmann wrote:
         | digging through their Instagram posts, it appears as though
         | they've developed a newish technique for this which they call a
         | "river joint." They match the not perfectly straight edges of
         | adjacent boards as well as they can, then they square up and
         | rout a tongue and groove into the edges. Where there are small
         | gaps, they add small filler pieces as necessary, but try to
         | minimize that.
         | 
         | It seems like a beautiful but laborious process that is mostly
         | applicable to a very high effort piece like this.
        
         | patrickyeon wrote:
         | The project site has a page on the process, not quite a step-
         | by-step guide, but probably enough to satisfy curiosity.
         | https://www.thefenlandblackoakproject.co.uk/the-table-top
        
       | intrasight wrote:
       | Cool recycling story. Lou Stiver has been making mandolins for
       | decades. Some time ago, a neighbor was renovating their kitchen.
       | Lou knew that the original cabinets were made from maple
       | harvested from the property. He asked the neighbor for the old
       | cabinets, and made what he believes are some of his finest
       | mandolins.
       | 
       | https://www.yourheaven.net/2018/3-mandolin-makers/
        
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