[HN Gopher] FairEmail: Open-source, privacy friendly email app f...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       FairEmail: Open-source, privacy friendly email app for Android
        
       Author : sirffuzzylogik
       Score  : 174 points
       Date   : 2021-03-08 14:54 UTC (8 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (email.faircode.eu)
 (TXT) w3m dump (email.faircode.eu)
        
       | cassepipe wrote:
       | I was wondering it seems like when you get a mail app, Android
       | ends up storing that mail address as an account in the account
       | section of the parameters. Is there a way to avoid this ?
        
         | g_p wrote:
         | Just checked on mine and no FairEmail email account is listed
         | in the accounts list in Android - it's all handled in-app.
        
           | cassepipe wrote:
           | Beautiful. Thank you.
        
         | tadfisher wrote:
         | This is the user interface to the AccountManager API, which is
         | one of the standard mechanisms to manage auth tokens and
         | background sync. IIRC it's been around since Android 1.0 and
         | it's probably not a useful vector for third-party tracking.
        
           | tjoff wrote:
           | Why not?
           | 
           | Being the standard way of doing it since beginning of time is
           | just an argument for why it is a useful source to steal
           | contact information and track users.
        
       | hnarn wrote:
       | While I applaud any effort to make email more usable and secure,
       | I can't escape the feeling that email is quickly becoming the new
       | snail mail. It seems most people only use it for very "official"
       | communication, or communication with more or less autonomous
       | services, while using other channels for almost everything else.
       | 
       | For me at least, email is moving into the same space as a phone
       | number: something you know you need to reliably have, but you'd
       | throw out in a minute if you could get away with it.
        
       | aasasd wrote:
       | Am I the only one who can't make FairMail deliver mail faster
       | than 15-20 minutes? The notification is on, the battery
       | optimization for the app is off, still nothing. K9 actually
       | receives the message earlier, despite not having a persistent
       | notification.
        
         | g_p wrote:
         | This sounds like you are having an issue with the
         | notifications. Does your server support IMAP IDLE? I'm
         | wondering whether K9 is polling for email, and the server isn't
         | supporting push messages via IDLE.
        
         | RedComet wrote:
         | I was having the same issue when I last used it.
        
         | artificialLimbs wrote:
         | Same.
         | 
         | It also drank my battery juice like an electroholic.
        
         | mdaniel wrote:
         | Have you opened an issue for that behavior? I haven't looked at
         | the repo's issue reporting policy, but my experience says that
         | telling HN isn't nearly as effective as telling the issue
         | tracker. I would be especially interested in knowing if that
         | happens in a DeGoogled setup, versus on "normal" Android
        
           | aasasd wrote:
           | > _isn 't nearly as effective as telling the issue tracker_
           | 
           | I don't agree with this conjecture, at all. After seeing
           | plenty of projects with hundreds of open issues, I don't
           | create them anymore unless I'm ready to submit a patch, or
           | it's just a quick question. Whereas here in a thread that
           | will be out of sight by tomorrow, it's a no-brainer--two
           | people answered already.
           | 
           | FairEmail makes this decision even easier by 1) promoting its
           | paid version, which I didn't buy and thus am not in a
           | position to demand anything; and 2) not having an issue
           | tracker in the first place.
        
       | curt15 wrote:
       | K-9 Mail had some difficulty getting IMAP IDLE to work with
       | Android's Doze. Does FairEmail fare better?
        
         | g_p wrote:
         | Yes, this is probably the biggest feature of FairEmail.
         | 
         | If your server supports IDLE, it will work well. I've got it
         | working with 3 different backend mail servers, and I'm told by
         | friends that it actually receives mail faster than the official
         | Gmail Android app (which had access to Google push servers).
         | 
         | FairEmail will ask you to disable doze for it, but don't be
         | concerned - it's a very power efficient solution and it doesn't
         | impact on battery. It even works out its own back-off timers
         | for keepalives to minimise wakes.
        
       | bantunes wrote:
       | Good it's open source and all that, but it's very hard to use and
       | parse what's on the screen.
        
         | feanaro wrote:
         | Indeed, this is the only pain point I have with FairEmail. I
         | would love it if a skilled designer overhauled the interface.
        
         | burundi_coffee wrote:
         | I agree, which is why I stuck with the default email app that
         | comes with LineageOS for now.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | cassepipe wrote:
       | Just bought the premium features because this is both simple and
       | well thought and works very well. I really like it.
        
       | spacebeer wrote:
       | I've been using FairEmail for some time (premium version,
       | F-Droid) and it is great. I have my main IMAP account there
       | 
       | But I also use K-9 Mail (beta, from F-Droid). It is easier for me
       | to handle multiple (secondary) accounts with K9, than FE
        
       | Snetry wrote:
       | I've been using FreeMail for a while now and I can only say that
       | its a fantastic app. The setup and settings are a bit unintuitive
       | but despite that its great
        
       | dane-pgp wrote:
       | It's interesting that the FAQ says:
       | 
       | > FairEmail will send the Autocrypt header for use by other email
       | clients, but only for signed and encrypted messages because too
       | many email servers have problems with the often long Autocrypt
       | header.
       | 
       | That might be out of date, now that Autocrypt version 1.1 has
       | been published:
       | 
       | > the 1.0 version of the Level 1 spec mandated RSA 3072 keys for
       | ecosystem reasons and only the more recent 1.1 version from
       | February 2019 now mandates that the new default scheme for
       | creating Autocrypt keys is Curve 25519 keys.
       | 
       | https://autocrypt.org/faq.html#why-also-rsa3072-and-not-only...
        
       | kop316 wrote:
       | I was curious to see if FairEmail could work with OAuth without
       | Google Play (I have a school Google account that does not allow
       | me to log in without OAuth):
       | 
       | https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/blob/master/FAQ.md#user-co...
       | 
       | "OAuth for Gmail is supported via the quick setup wizard. The
       | Android account manager will be used to fetch and refresh OAuth
       | tokens for selected on-device accounts. OAuth for non on-device
       | accounts is not supported because Google requires a yearly
       | security audit ($15,000 to $75,000) for this. You can read more
       | about this here."
       | 
       | You can see it here too:
       | https://support.google.com/cloud/answer/9110914#zippy=%2Cexc...
        
         | pomian wrote:
         | Using both this and k9 without Google play or any Google. They
         | work great. But both of them, no longer allow storing your mail
         | and/or attachments on 'external' or SD card. That is
         | frustrating. This anti feature, just started in the last few
         | months.
        
           | kop316 wrote:
           | I use k9 right now for my fastmaol account, and that works
           | fine. I just can't use my school account that is gmail.
           | 
           | I'm not sure how you're using it?
        
           | llarsson wrote:
           | Could be a new API that needs to be supported. I just
           | downloaded another app (NewPipe) that let me specifically
           | choose some new API that made its external storage
           | permissions work.
        
       | jesse_m wrote:
       | I love this app. I really like how it shows you tracking images
       | and stuff in the emails.
        
       | Black101 wrote:
       | been using this app for months... my favorite email app in this
       | current market.
        
       | safaci2000 wrote:
       | it looks like a cool project though what I'd love to see is some
       | solution that makes PGP/Secure Email more accessible to the
       | common person. I know hushmail, tutanota, and protonmail are all
       | around, but still only works if everyone is on the same service.
       | 
       | it's interesting how secure email has been solved decades ago
       | (how to do it) but making it accessible has been an ongoing
       | struggle. :(
       | 
       | Anyone ran across a more tangible solution for the common man?
        
         | muppetman wrote:
         | Why use PGP when there are such better alternatives these days?
         | Signal springs to mind immediately. PGP is clunky in every way.
         | I know I can readily communicate with almost every one of my
         | workmates securely using Signal or WhatsApp. None of them would
         | have anything other than a passing idea of what PGP was, or how
         | to use it.
         | 
         | 20 years ago when there was no better solution, PGP was great.
         | But I think it's probably had its time in the spotlight and now
         | the world has moved on, when it comes to using it to secure
         | email.
         | 
         | I think the solution is that if you want to communicate in a
         | secure manner, don't use email.
        
           | forgotmypw17 wrote:
           | PGP has support for every language, client, and platform one
           | may be using. It,s time tested and the most widely adopted
           | standard. It supports plaintext. Signal has support for...
           | Signal.
        
             | muppetman wrote:
             | None of those points detract from the fact PGP is a complex
             | nightmare to use. There's a reason millions of people have
             | Signal/WhatsApp installed and not PGP.
             | 
             | Even Media organisations have ditched it in favour of
             | things like Securedrop (and/or Signal).
             | 
             | I'd argue that Signal is much more widely adopted that PGP
             | ever was.
        
               | forgotmypw17 wrote:
               | I agree that a good interface is missing...
               | 
               | But the protocol has all the capabilities needed.
               | 
               | Nor is full support of every feature needed by every
               | client.
               | 
               | I think from a crypto strength perspective, it,s silly to
               | reinvent the same thing over again.
               | 
               | (The thing being basic PKI of just public/private keys
               | and signed/encrypted messages.)
        
               | muppetman wrote:
               | PGP is the giant, the shoulders of which many modern
               | crypto apps/protocols stand on. PGP was _the_
               | implementation that brought proper, trustable crypto to
               | the masses. It was a great solution, filling a void where
               | there was no good solution before it.
               | 
               | It's time is done though, for communicating between
               | people. There are many better solutions where you don't
               | need to worry about having the public key of every person
               | you wish to communicate with. You no longer need to
               | unlock your key every time you send a message to "prove"
               | you sent it. The world has moved on to better technical
               | solutions to those problems.
               | 
               | PGP was brilliant for its time. It still is brilliant for
               | a number of uses cases (like verifying your Debian .deb
               | file is signed by a legit Debian person)
               | 
               | However, communicating with people is no longer one of
               | them. People HAVE invented/reinvented how to communicate
               | securely. And the world's better for them having done so.
        
       | meremortals wrote:
       | I've been loving FairEmail for the last 6 months
        
       | andrewshadura wrote:
       | No JMAP support?
        
       | Animats wrote:
       | I've been running that for years.
        
       | sebsauvage wrote:
       | I have been using this email app for months, with 4 different
       | email providers. It works like a charm, it's snappy, and privacy-
       | oriented (preview links before opening them, block pixel
       | tracking, and lot of other clever features.)
       | 
       | Oh and the developer is _very_ active (several versions a week),
       | very kind and answers very quickly.
       | 
       | One of the best bargains. (I bought the full version)
        
         | muppetman wrote:
         | You've typed exactly what I was going to type, except I only
         | use it for 3 providers.
        
         | Assossa wrote:
         | The developer is so active that it is actually annoying for me.
         | I get a notification to update my client almost every time I
         | open the app.
        
         | mahathu wrote:
         | > preview links before opening them
         | 
         | I noticed this feature in the default macOS mail App too but
         | I'm not quite sure I understand correctly. If you click on the
         | little arrow next to a link, it opens the website in a little
         | window -- from a privacy/security POV, is that really helpful?
         | Wouldn't the sender know you read the E-Mail if my computer
         | sends a request to their server using that URL, no matter if
         | it's for a preview window or my actual browser (except the
         | latter has cookies etc)
        
           | g_p wrote:
           | In FairEmail, the "preview" is to show you exactly what URL
           | is about to be opened, and give you the chance to force it to
           | HTTPS, or remove known tracking parameters from it.
           | 
           | It also warns you prominently if the link's text differs from
           | the target address, and allows you to pick which you actually
           | want to visit (good for newsletters that mangle links for
           | click tracking, but which show the raw link in the text).
           | 
           | Tapping a link will pop this box up, without the site being
           | alerted, giving you the chance to decide whether you want to
           | actually visit it or not.
        
       | mike-cardwell wrote:
       | Can somebody with access to an Android phone test out this client
       | with https://www.emailprivacytester.com and report back please.
        
         | ivann wrote:
         | The only test turning red for me was the "DNS Prefetch -
         | Anchor" one.
        
       | throwaway81523 wrote:
       | I'm using F-droid K-9 and am happy with it. What would be the
       | point of switching? If the new thing is flat-out better then it
       | might be worth considering, but I haven't seen any explanation of
       | this.
        
         | g_p wrote:
         | IMAP IDLE push support for any server that supports it, good
         | configurability in settings for a wide range of advanced power
         | user features, and good private-by-default settings (avoiding
         | and blocking tracking pixels/images in emails, and stripping
         | known tracking parameters from links you click, etc.)
         | 
         | Those would be my top 3 personally.
        
           | tadfisher wrote:
           | IDLE is especially difficult on recent Android versions
           | without a hosted service piping through FCM. You may be able
           | to get away with a foreground service that displays a
           | permanent notification, but I believe Android 11 or 12 limits
           | even those services so you cannot have a persistent process
           | keeping a socket open.
           | 
           | Power usage would be an interesting problem as well, because
           | I'm not sure if keeping a socket open would pin the radio
           | active.
        
             | g_p wrote:
             | I haven't had any issues on Android 11 with FairEmail using
             | a foreground service. I believe that the changes coming in
             | 12 are able to be worked around though, and at minimum a
             | version distributed outside of the Play Store won't be
             | affected. There's some get-outs to Google's changes at
             | least as they stand right now, but who knows if that will
             | remain the case in subsequent versions.
             | 
             | I haven't seen any suggestion the radio is being pinned
             | active - it seems to still sleep fine, and I believe an
             | incoming messages triggers a downlink page to the phone,
             | which will then wake the radio to deliver the packets.
        
           | licebmi__at__ wrote:
           | Doesn't k9 already supports IDLE? I kinda remember
           | researching about this years ago, unfortunately, IDLE on it's
           | own is no equivalent to native push notifications that use
           | google services. Either way, it was just a hobby research and
           | I might be wrong.
        
             | aasasd wrote:
             | Last time I looked into this, K9 didn't work in background
             | continuously (since Android requires displaying a
             | notification for that, and K9 never implemented it). And
             | nothing seems to be happening in this regard.
             | 
             | However, I wasn't able to make FairMail to deliver without
             | a considerable delay either--despite it displaying a
             | notification and being excluded from 'battery
             | optimization'. But apparently it's just me.
        
               | muppetman wrote:
               | EDIT: See comment below this - it appears I might be
               | talking out my bottom.
               | 
               | It's easy to change an app's background ability in
               | Android. By default apps are forced into the background,
               | but if you change that your k9 email will notify you all
               | day long (it does support IDLE)
        
               | aasasd wrote:
               | There's an issue on their tracker that discusses
               | implementing the notification, and docs that say that
               | without it K9 can only check mail every 15 minutes or so,
               | even if excluded from battery optimization. So I don't
               | know what support for IDLE and 'background ability'
               | you're talking about. Before Android 9 or so, sure--it
               | could just run in the background and connect to the
               | servers whenever it wanted.
        
               | muppetman wrote:
               | Interesting - I can't say I've encountered this but I'm
               | going to check the bug tracker now. Thank you - I have
               | updated my parent comment.
        
               | aasasd wrote:
               | Here it is: https://github.com/k9mail/k-9/issues/857
               | 
               | The issue is even older than I thought, though I was
               | pretty sure the requirement for a notification
               | specifically appeared around Android 8 or 9.
               | 
               | Also, seeing as K9 doesn't look to be anywhere near
               | frequently updated, I'm not expecting this to change
               | soon.
        
               | g_p wrote:
               | Out of interest, do you use a phone with a custom OEM
               | firmware that has battery-saving features. I've seen
               | issue with FairEmail (and other well-behaved foreground-
               | service using apps) on some OEMs' firmwares. Heck,
               | sometimes even big-name OEMs like Samsung cause issues.
               | 
               | On "pure" Android (thinking Pixel, and the relatively
               | pure Motorola devices, etc.) there's no delays at all -
               | it's really impressive. I'll get the notification on my
               | phone consistently before on my PC.
        
               | aasasd wrote:
               | It's a Pixel. Starting with 9 or 10, Android limits apps'
               | background activity unless they show a notification (and
               | probably has limits for those too when the screen is
               | off). Plenty of apps had to deal with this, I have four
               | of these notifications.
               | 
               | These limits don't apply to notifications via Google's
               | services (GCM or whatever they're currently called). So
               | if you're using the Gmail app or another app for a
               | specific mail service, sure you will receive push
               | notifications quickly.
        
               | g_p wrote:
               | Interesting - I've not been able to reproduce this on a
               | Pixel 3a or 4a 5G. FairEmail, with foreground
               | notification, doesn't have any issues delivering
               | notifications.
               | 
               | As you say, Google is making it a lot harder, but FE with
               | a foreground notification seems to do this fine for me.
        
         | artificialLimbs wrote:
         | Can't remember specifics but I couldn't recover email from K9
         | after my provider pulled the plug and the only copy I had was
         | on device.
         | 
         | Am now a happy user of Fastmail with BYOD(omain). =D
        
         | stilisstuk wrote:
         | I love fairmail. Can't remember what the problem was with k9.
         | But fair mail can't do everything. And it's slick and modern.
         | Privacy first. Removes tracking images. And also identifiers in
         | images you send out. It's really really good
         | 
         | P.s also f-droid here (ps you can donate with crypto if you
         | want)
        
         | skratlo wrote:
         | Comparing K-9 to FairEmail is like comparing Outlook Express
         | (from Windows 95 fame) to Mozilla Thunderbird
        
           | selfhoster11 wrote:
           | Give me a modernized Outlook Express over Thunderbird any
           | day.
        
           | throwaway81523 wrote:
           | I don't understand the comparison? Outlook and Thunderbird
           | were pretty similar iirc. K9 does give me notifications when
           | new email arrives. It's possible that it's every 15 minutes
           | rather than instant: it hasn't been an issue for me so far. I
           | know that Linphone is able to receive phone calls which is
           | presumably by listening on a socket or getting activated by
           | some inetd-type thing in Android. Maybe K9 could do similar.
        
       | ancarda wrote:
       | Is anyone else getting this error on F-Droid?
       | Download failed!         The requested file was not found.
       | https://f-droid.org/repo/eu.faircode.email_1518.apk
       | 
       | How can I download this app? I use K-9 Mail at the moment, but
       | I'd like to try this to see if it's any better.
        
         | severine wrote:
         | Same error, for several different apps, since yesterday.
        
         | rhamzeh wrote:
         | Sometimes, the FDroid client errors out. Some steps I generally
         | found helpful to fix this issue were: - Refresh the repos (pull
         | down to refresh) - Reduce the caching thresold (Settings =>
         | Other (Bottom of the screen) => Keep Cached Apps) - Wait for a
         | bit then try again
         | 
         | You can also always download this directly from the browser.
        
           | mdaniel wrote:
           | I got so fed up with the F-Droid client that I moved to Foxy
           | Droid, which I ironically installed via F-Droid:
           | 
           | > Foxy Droid (Yet another F-Droid client) -
           | https://f-droid.org/packages/nya.kitsunyan.foxydroid
           | 
           | I believe there are a few other clients too but I just like
           | Foxy so far
        
           | ancarda wrote:
           | I cleared F-Droid's cache and data. After an hour, I still
           | can't download it :(
        
       | CuriousNinja wrote:
       | Does IMAP clients handle Gmail labels well? Last time I tried to
       | use an IMAP client it treated all the labels as separate folders.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | kitsunesoba wrote:
         | I may be wrong but my understanding is that this is just a
         | limitation of Gmail's IMAP implementation. Every IMAP client
         | I've tried so far displays tags as separate folders.
        
         | gtf21 wrote:
         | I think this is down to the way Google implemented labels. I
         | looked into this when I moved all my email off Google's servers
         | and noticed they just list them as folders on IMAP, so a client
         | would have to implement a special google-specific way of
         | dealing with them. There are other ways to implement labels in
         | IMAP (I've forgotten the exact details but I did it
         | successfully while interacting with the IMAP server using
         | `openssl s_client`).
        
         | contravariant wrote:
         | If you mean the [IMAP]/Read kind of labels then yeah it handles
         | those properly.
        
       | saagarjha wrote:
       | Scrolled down to the bottom to look at the screenshots, but they
       | look mildly stretched to me. Is anyone else seeing this?
        
       | pw6hv wrote:
       | Just switched from K9-mail to FairEmail.
       | 
       | I was using the Google Play version of K9 so at the moment I am
       | quite happy of the switch. There is only one thing that I did not
       | manage to find in FairEmail which is the ability to read the
       | header of emails. Like the whole information, from SPF, DKIM
       | validation and so on. Does anyone know if it's possible to get
       | this?
       | 
       | For the moment I am planning to stay with FairEmail and maybe one
       | day try the F-Droid version of K9 as I heard it has evolved a lot
       | in the recent times.
        
         | dilawar wrote:
         | Same here. I switched from k9 to bluemail to fairmail. Bluemail
         | was good but proprietary solution. Fairmail is almost as good
         | as bluemail. Though I still looking for 'share' email with an
         | todo list app. Fairmail and Joplin works but Joplin is not my
         | preferred to do app.
        
         | chadcatlett wrote:
         | When viewing a message, you can tap on the '...' below the
         | address information and near the buttom of the menu will be a
         | show headers option as well as an option to show the raw
         | message.
        
         | dlkmp wrote:
         | I'm using the FDroid version of K9. What do you like from
         | FairEmail over K9?
        
           | butt_hugger wrote:
           | One great feature is that when you add images in FairEmail,
           | it removes metadata, renames the file and other privacy-
           | preserving data.
        
             | pmlnr wrote:
             | Unless that is optional, it's a bug, not a feature.
             | Attachments should never be manipulated unless asked.
        
           | azalex wrote:
           | I realise that this is not a common use case, but FairEmail
           | is the only e-mail client I could find that supports TLS
           | client authentication.
        
             | creeble wrote:
             | Does K9 not do this? I am certain it works with STARTTLS,
             | it's what I'm currently using.
             | 
             | Do you mean just straight TLS connection at the start of
             | session?
        
               | g_p wrote:
               | I assume they're referring to TLS client certificate
               | authentication support. As you say, most email clients
               | can handle TLS.
               | 
               | Few can handle authenticating to the server with a client
               | certificate, but FairEmail seems to support it fine,
               | although I've yet to configure it on my own server as
               | it's likely to break other clients that don't support it.
        
           | pw6hv wrote:
           | I've been on the Google Play version of K9 for years and I
           | must say that it was perfectly fine. I changed to FairEmail
           | as I thought having a very old version of an email client
           | might not be ideal from a security perspective. At the moment
           | the biggest change from my workflow is the UI, which looks
           | better that the old K9. Now I am not switching to K9 F-Droid
           | version just because I am lazy to configure everything again
           | another time.
           | 
           | But please bear in mind that my way of using email on my
           | phone is very minimal. I usually just need something to read
           | and for most of my productivity task I use mutt.
        
             | pmlnr wrote:
             | K9 has an export settings feature.
        
             | stonesweep wrote:
             | We had a HN thread a few weeks back on the K-9 Donations
             | blog, basically the K-9 Play version is still the old
             | client UI (but the betas are not 100% feature complete);
             | you can opt-in to the K-9 beta on Play or F-Droid and get
             | the new UI experience if some features like IMAP IDLE are
             | not that important to you. (side comment, the new K-9 betas
             | allow export/import of settings but not sure about the
             | older version you're currently using)
        
               | tjoff wrote:
               | The old ones have export/import as well.
        
         | g_p wrote:
         | You can view email headers in FairEmail by opening an email,
         | then using the "..." menu above the message text, and selecting
         | "show headers".
        
       | doc_gunthrop wrote:
       | FYI this is by the same developer who authored the popular
       | NetGuard (https://github.com/M66B/NetGuard) for Android.
        
         | _e wrote:
         | ... and M66B developed XPrivacyLua:
         | https://github.com/M66B/XPrivacyLua
         | 
         | it spoofs and restricts Android API calls made by apps.
        
       | rexreed wrote:
       | Am I a weirdo for using POP mail on an Android? I don't trust any
       | third party with storing my email. Is there a reason why I should
       | move to IMAP?
       | 
       | I mean I know the technical reasons. But it says on the FairEmail
       | page: "FairEmail might be for you if you value your privacy." and
       | also says "works with virtually all email providers, including
       | Gmail, Outlook and Yahoo!"
       | 
       | For me, privacy is more than what's on the client - the server
       | matters too. POP has seemed to work for me for 25+ yrs.
        
         | lisper wrote:
         | If you don't trust your provider then POP won't help you
         | because you can't trust them not to keep copies. The only
         | solution is to run your own SMTP server, at which point you
         | might as well use IMAP.
        
           | rexreed wrote:
           | I'm in control of my server (host) which is a shared-hosting
           | account. While it is possible for them to store copies of the
           | email, it is much more cumbersome for them to do that than if
           | I just had my entire IMAP store residing on their server. For
           | POP copies to work, they would have to purposefully copy and
           | store all the email, whereas with IMAP they would just need
           | to query the data store.
        
             | lisper wrote:
             | Ah, so you do trust them. You trust that they are too lazy
             | to take the initiative to keep a copy, but merely
             | untrustworthy enough that they might sneak a peek if they
             | can do so without having to put forth even the minor effort
             | of making backups of the spool directories.
             | 
             | Fair enough, but that strikes me as a very odd risk posture
             | to take. Either your email privacy is valuable to you, in
             | which case I would think you would want to protect it
             | against non-lazy people as well, or it isn't, in which case
             | what difference does it make?
             | 
             | But it's obviously your call.
        
               | [deleted]
        
               | tjoff wrote:
               | There are tons of situations where not having everything
               | on the server is beneficial.
               | 
               | A hack will barely get them anything, neither a warrant
               | or a bored employee.
               | 
               | Of course any of those situations could result in an
               | active tap that stores everything. But that is orders of
               | magnitude more effort and still doesn't get any history.
               | 
               | Just minimizing the attack surface.
        
         | flopunctro wrote:
         | IMAP is not an email provider, it's just another protocol for
         | reading your mail. It is the successor of POP3, having several
         | key improvements. Somewhat like HTTP2 is to HTTP.
         | 
         | If both your email provider and your client (aka mail reading
         | software) support it, there really is no reason to use POP
         | instead of IMAP.
        
           | rexreed wrote:
           | Yes, I'm aware of IMAP as a protocol. My point has to do with
           | the location and trust. I need to be able to trust the server
           | as a point of mail storage.
           | 
           | While I agree that POP still uses the server as a go-between,
           | at least the mail doesn't reside on POP servers forever.
           | Whereas with IMAP, if I have 25+ years of email I'd like to
           | be able to view and archive and search, all of that has to
           | sit at the server rather than at the client.
        
             | jedberg wrote:
             | > at least the mail doesn't reside on POP servers forever.
             | 
             | That's very dependent on the POP server. The protocol only
             | tells the server that it is _allowed_ to delete the
             | message, not that it _must_.
             | 
             | I'm pretty sure if you use POP on gmail it just does an
             | "archive" on the backend and the mail is still there, for
             | example.
        
             | t0astbread wrote:
             | I'm not at all educated on POP/IMAP but I always thought
             | the deletion thing with POP was just by convention and
             | there's nothing in IMAP preventing you from doing the same
             | there.
             | 
             | getmail supports deletion as an IMAP client, for example.
        
         | sokoloff wrote:
         | The convenience of having the same view (via IMAP) of my email
         | from multiple devices is worthwhile for me. It also makes
         | supporting my parents from hundreds of miles away much easier
         | when they are on IMAP vs when I had them on POP3 before. "Mom,
         | your email is also on your phone, your laptop, your desktop,
         | and on Dad's computer. It's all the same."
         | 
         | I already trust my provider to _handle_ my email once; there
         | doesn 't seem to be a vastly larger trust requirement on my
         | part for them to handle it multiple times. (And epsilon
         | additional privacy concern.)
        
         | xearl wrote:
         | FairEmail does support POP3 accounts.
        
         | deckard1 wrote:
         | If you don't trust Google to store your email, I have bad news
         | for you.
         | 
         | You will _never_ escape having some of your email stored on
         | Gmail servers. Most people you email are using a gmail address,
         | whether direct or via forwarding.
         | 
         | End-to-end encryption is your only true ally. In this regard,
         | email is hopeless. I personally feel that all these privacy
         | mechanisms on top of email are a) hopelessly pointless and b)
         | give people false comfort. They do more harm than good. It
         | would be better if people saw email as a plaintext, insecure
         | protocol and treated it that way _at all times_. Just imagine
         | whatever you write in an email is the same as a message you
         | send out to the world on Twitter. Doing it this way ensures you
         | never send a message you will regret and will guarantee your
         | protection rather than the security theater of privacy
         | mechanisms layered on top of a fundamentally broken protocol.
        
           | t0astbread wrote:
           | You're absolutely right but unfortunately, my biggest use-
           | case for email is still sending my own personal data to
           | businesses I (more or less) have to interact with that don't
           | offer an alternative.
           | 
           | Also, I'm not sure most email users know what a "plaintext,
           | insecure protocol" is and what it would imply.
        
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