[HN Gopher] Someone is hacking the hackers
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Someone is hacking the hackers
        
       Author : fortran77
       Score  : 217 points
       Date   : 2021-03-07 15:14 UTC (7 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (gizmodo.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (gizmodo.com)
        
       | tyingq wrote:
       | I'm curious what forum software Maza, Verified, and Exploit use.
       | If they all use the same one, that might explain the quick
       | succession.
        
         | wyxuan wrote:
         | I'm guessing xenforo? Most forums use it - even the illicit
         | ones. The issue probably stems from an insecure plugin - this
         | was how OGUsers was hacked.
        
         | ryanlol wrote:
         | None of these hacks were related to the forum software. Maza
         | and VF run ancient vb, but nobody has found vulns in that for
         | ages. Exploit frontend proxy was compromised by someone, most
         | likely the hoster. The forum software doesn't run on the
         | frontend proxy.
         | 
         | VF was hacked with a MITM attack that intercepted admin
         | credentials, you can check CT logs to verify this.
        
           | tyingq wrote:
           | I'm surprised even ancient vbulletin doesn't have new
           | vulnerabilities arise. Last I looked at it, it was a horrible
           | kluge. For example a fair amount of the actual PHP than runs
           | was in database tables.
        
             | jart wrote:
             | That makes it unpleasant which does not necessarily mean
             | insecure. In fact, having an unpleasant codebase can be an
             | advantage from a security standpoint. If the code is so
             | ugly and complicated that no one wants to add new features,
             | then that means less churn, and less churn means fewer
             | weaknesses. Imagine if the Sudo codebase, which has had
             | over 9,000 changes, had been written that way. I think
             | Donald Knuth got it right with his marvelous tex.web
             | monstrosity that some software should arch towards
             | immutability. https://mirrors.concertpass.com/tex-
             | archive/systems/knuth/di...
        
               | tyingq wrote:
               | It's another surface to inject code, puts "eval" type
               | functionality in the main code, and makes cleaning up
               | after you've been compromised more difficult.
        
           | tyingq wrote:
           | This article says VF was hacked via their DNS registrar.
           | Though I guess proxing the real site might be a
           | straightforward MITM if you control the DNS.
           | https://securityboulevard.com/2021/03/three-top-russian-
           | cybe...
        
             | ryanlol wrote:
             | Yes, you can very this using passivedns. The DNS was
             | briefly switched over to cloudflare right before the hack
             | happened.
        
               | fuoqi wrote:
               | I do not know much about this whole story, but does it
               | mean that Cloudflare has helped to perform those hacks?
               | Since Firefox now uses it by default for its DoH, I think
               | it warrants some serious questions about the choice.
        
               | tyingq wrote:
               | I don't imagine Cloudflare did anything other than
               | provide a proxy platform that's nice for MITM because of
               | features like ssl termination, edge workers, page rules,
               | etc.
        
       | bmsleight_ wrote:
       | dang - can we change the source to https://krebsonsecurity.c
       | om/2021/03/three-top-russian-cybercrime-forums-hacked/ please ?
        
         | tacker2000 wrote:
         | Yes please, Gizmodo is cancer. Whats with that sticky video
         | container??
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | goatinaboat wrote:
       | _I just love the arrogance of these fuckers. "No one but state
       | level law enforcement could take us down!" What a crock of shit.
       | More likely just an ex member with an axe to grind._
       | 
       | Yep, everyone always says they were the victim of a sophisticated
       | hack by advanced state-sponsored level hackers, whereas maybe
       | their password was <company name>123.
        
         | mannykannot wrote:
         | Indeed; it seems unlikely that a state-level actor would
         | announce to the targets that they have been compromised.
        
       | chiefalchemist wrote:
       | > This hack comes shortly after similar attacks on two other
       | Russian cybercrime forums,
       | 
       | I don't understand so I have to ask:
       | 
       | What allows these sites to be designated as Russian? Is it simply
       | the location of the server(s)? Is it a geographic designation, or
       | more of a political one? Or both?
        
         | theMuckPot wrote:
         | According to this article:
         | https://krebsonsecurity.com/2019/11/why-were-the-russians-so...
         | 
         |  _Since their inception in the mid-aughts, both of these forums
         | (Mazafaka and DirectConnection) have been among the most
         | difficult to join -- admitting only native Russian speakers and
         | requiring each applicant to furnish a non-refundable cash
         | deposit and "vouches" or guarantees from at least three
         | existing members._
         | 
         | In addition, their administration is exclusively Russian
         | nationals, and all forum posts and communications are done in
         | Russian.
        
         | luplex wrote:
         | I don't know the sites in question, but maybe the language?
        
       | mrkramer wrote:
       | "Criminal hackers have been known to hack each other, but is that
       | what is happening here?"
       | 
       | After years of researching computer security and cybercrime I
       | think this is most likely the case with this one.
       | 
       | "KrebsOnSecurity reports that the intruder subsequently dumped
       | the stolen data on the dark web."
       | 
       | If Law Enforcement people are after them they wouldn't do this
       | they would simply seize the website and put notification on
       | website's front page so it seems like rival group hacked them or
       | simply whitehat hackers.
       | 
       | Some of this cybercrime forums are running for more than a decade
       | so no wonder they have attention and problems with Law and cyber
       | criminals alike.
        
         | hollander wrote:
         | It could very well be law enforcement doing this, just to
         | encite a war between different groups. Didn't they do this with
         | drug gangs in Colombia?
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | mrkramer wrote:
           | They don't do it when they prosecute cyber criminals. You
           | don't dump data and information you seize in investigation
           | because you can use it in further operations or because you
           | will need to use it in court.
        
         | newsclues wrote:
         | If LEO gets data/evidence illegally and they are unable to use
         | it for prosecution, leaking it is the modern anonymous phone
         | call equivalent.
        
           | mrkramer wrote:
           | > If LEO gets data/evidence illegally and they are unable to
           | use it for prosecution
           | 
           | Law Enforcement Agencies work in cooperation with DOJ and
           | they obtain evidence with the use of warrant[1] which is
           | issued by court.
           | 
           | Speaking of obtaining illegal evidence you can search for
           | numerous court cases where judges turned blind eye on
           | questionable methods of obtaining evidence using hacking
           | techniques. Some of those cases were seizure of Dark Web
           | websites and their servers. Courts will always protect
           | government agencies because they want to be cohesive and in
           | synergy.
           | 
           | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_(law)
        
       | sigmaprimus wrote:
       | Im surprised there was no mention of Jokers Stash, it seems
       | reasonable to me that after it shut down it left a power vacuum
       | of sorts with several actors looking for new places to ply their
       | trade. Not to mention the real possibility that some "peepls"
       | have an axe to grind because they got burned when J$ closed up
       | shop.
        
         | ryanlol wrote:
         | Nobody got burned when joker quit, everyone got paid.
        
           | sigmaprimus wrote:
           | I didn't say they didn't get paid. There a plenty of other
           | ways to lose out from having the rug pulled out
           | suddenly...but now that You made the argument, unless I
           | missed it, the only evidence that everyone got paid was the
           | promise made within the announcement which is no evidence at
           | all.
        
             | ryanlol wrote:
             | There's lots of evidence if you read VF and similar forums.
             | Joker manually processed withdrawals for those who
             | requested them, even small amounts. All the sellers got
             | paid.
        
       | YarickR2 wrote:
       | Brain drain, infosec edition. Pandemic struck, and suddenly
       | relocation is all the rage. I know a few infosec guys moving from
       | Russia to various places outside of reach of local law
       | enforcement (and "law enforcement") agencies . Next steps are
       | usually easy to guess - infosec guys are doing what they were
       | doing before, but for new management, and with new targets (ex-
       | allies) in sight. Just a wild guess, of course.
        
         | cosmodisk wrote:
         | The problem with infosec,even during good times, is that it's a
         | low paid job. I don't mean it's 10$/h or something, however
         | taking into consideration what's at risk and usually the
         | knowledge required, majority get paid peanuts. No surprise more
         | lucrative deals of questionble sort pop up and attract the more
         | talented ones.
        
       | derefr wrote:
       | Is it just me, or has the number of large hacks on "things you'd
       | expect to be at least somewhat secure" picked up since the
       | pandemic started? It seems like every week now there's a source-
       | code leak for some high-profile project.
       | 
       | My own assumption so far is that credentials that were previously
       | being passed along through (essentially) in-person key-exchange
       | parties, have now been forced to be passed along over channels
       | like email/Slack/etc., making the ability to spin "mail/chat
       | server admin creds" into "general system-level elevated creds" a
       | lot more frequent.
        
         | TheRealPomax wrote:
         | Sort of: since 2017 the number of CVEs have basically gone up a
         | steady 8% per year [1], but the fact that you only noticed it
         | this year also suggests that this alone is not why you noticed.
         | 
         | The more likely reason you're noticing is that thanks to covid,
         | and the accelerated death of real news services, combined with
         | the echo chamber effect where we're all reminding each other of
         | how bad things are, means you're getting more exposure to
         | sensationalism, because that echos the best. And hacks
         | certainly qualify as sensational, especially on slow news days,
         | where news services desperately need clicks, and "X got hacked"
         | gets those (even if it's a report on a hack that isn't actually
         | one, like when someone walked into a data container with tens
         | of servers, one of which happened to be rented by a password
         | manager).
         | 
         | The real wtf is what happened in 2017, though.
         | 
         | [1]:
         | https://nvd.nist.gov/vuln/search/statistics?form_type=Basic&...
        
           | SavantIdiot wrote:
           | I don't think major hacker sites getting hacked, or the MSE
           | exploit from a few months ago qualifies as "sensationalism".
           | These, especially the latter, are a Pretty Big Deal (tm).
           | 
           | What do you consider a big news item that isn't
           | "sensationalism"? (Your link timed-out)
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | kilroy123 wrote:
         | I think people just have a ton of free time these days. I know
         | I have.
        
           | fortyrod wrote:
           | Occam called, he wants his razor back :)
        
         | the8472 wrote:
         | This shouldn't be necessary.
         | 
         | Getting the SSH pubkeys of other developers is easy. Grab them
         | from github or from a shared server or ask them once. Then use
         | age/rage to asymmetrically encrypt the secret you want to
         | share. No password has to travel in cleartext anywhere.
        
         | aboringusername wrote:
         | I think the pandemic has a role to play in this for sure. I
         | imagine may were required to use computers/tech as they've not
         | done before. Often times those who are uneducated have to be
         | accounted for so concessions are made.
         | 
         | For example, Sam needs to use a corporate network, doesn't
         | really understand "apps" or what a "TOTP" is, so they optimize
         | (weaken security) to allow them in.
        
           | lpriv wrote:
           | Cocks are tasty
        
           | luckman212 wrote:
           | Can we change this to "dumber than average" Sue? I guarantee
           | when I'm 60 I'll still be able to safely operate a computer
           | and understand what an "app" is, FFS. Ageism is really out of
           | control these days.
        
             | ldng wrote:
             | You have a point about ageism, but you also make quite a
             | condescending mistake of your own. You could have say "less
             | tech savvy" than "dumber than average". It is not because
             | you don't master something that you did not use before that
             | you are dumb.
        
             | aboringusername wrote:
             | I edited the comment, you make a good point. My bias is
             | that in my experience the elderly tends to struggle the
             | most as it wasn't common in their day, but point duly
             | noted.
        
             | cosmodisk wrote:
             | Absolutely agree on this. I've seen the entire spectrum by
             | now: kids,who literally grew up with computers in their
             | hands, not being able to operate simple software and people
             | way past retirement age doing complex 'magic' on their PCs
        
               | ethbr0 wrote:
               | I'm not impressed by the digital native, current
               | generations.
               | 
               | I think a better descriptor would be "app-native" -- i.e.
               | "I don't understand or care how anything computing works
               | under the hood, and it'd better be tied off with a pretty
               | bow and UI."
        
               | cosmodisk wrote:
               | This is a topic we discussed with a colleague earlier
               | this week: everyone's smart to click some buttons on an
               | app,which, even a monkey with some basic training could
               | do, but anything outside their comfort zone is a foreign
               | language to them. Just a few days ago got asked what's
               | the url to login to Office 365. There doesn't seem to be
               | any willingness to think.
        
               | gmfawcett wrote:
               | I don't understand your example. There is such a URL
               | (https://www.office.com/). Or are you just suggesting
               | that the colleague could have looked it up themselves?
        
               | boomboomsubban wrote:
               | As someone who hasn't touched Microsoft office in a
               | decade, what's the URL for Office 365 seems like a fair
               | question. Isn't it competing with Google? I assume they
               | offer an in browser client,
               | 
               | So yes, I have no idea how things I don't use work. This
               | isn't that I'm unwilling to think, things are more open
               | ended.
        
               | cosmodisk wrote:
               | It's not the part whether one knows or doesn't know the
               | url fascinates me: it's a professional setting, where
               | people are quite used to solve problems much more complex
               | than figuring out what's the url. For me it's the thought
               | process: What's the url? I don't know.. error... error..
               | error. The equivalent of this is if I'd say to someone
               | I've read a great article on Financial Times website,and
               | they'd reply with: sorry, I can't read it,I don't know
               | the url..
        
             | klingon79 wrote:
             | How about Pat? That's ambiguous enough.
        
               | fortyrod wrote:
               | Or pretend you're in the southeastern US, where "Sam" and
               | "Sue" are both non-gendered, and probably ageless,
               | according to Mr. Cash, at least. You could also go with
               | Courtney, Tracy, Billie, Casey, Drew...
        
             | jstanley wrote:
             | Sure, but when you're 60 you might not be so hot on
             | technology that you first encountered in your 50s.
             | 
             | I'm sure today's 60-year-olds are still perfectly good at
             | the kind of things they've been doing since they were 20.
        
               | blackrock wrote:
               | 25 years ago, the hot technology was dial-up modems. And
               | PCMCIA cards to connect to WiFi.
               | 
               | Haven't had much use of that lately.
        
               | ineedasername wrote:
               | The implication that someone couldn't keep up with a
               | relatively new things-- in your case vague example
               | something they even encountered a few years earlier-- is
               | pretty much the definition of ageism. Anyone who decides
               | to keep their professional skills current will do just
               | fine whether they're 5 years out of school or 40 years
               | out of school. If someone doesn't keep current & is 5
               | years out of date on their skills, there's not a lot of
               | difference between a 30 year old and a 60 year old that
               | are equally 5 years out of date. Though the 60 year old
               | might have decades more of experience working in their
               | advantage, so maybe the two aren't equal.
        
         | lefstathiou wrote:
         | It's not uncommon to test the resolve of a new administration
         | soon after a changing of the guard.
        
         | Barrin92 wrote:
         | >things you'd expect to be at least somewhat secure
         | 
         | I feel like with a lot of security or cyber-crime stuff there's
         | a "physician who smokes" dynamic to it where the people who you
         | expect to have great security actually often don't take a lot
         | of precautions. How many hackers end up being exposed because
         | of fairly trivial or random accidents is actually surprising.
        
           | theMuckPot wrote:
           | I've heard it said that first day beginners on a wood saw
           | will almost never hurt themselves. Their fear of it, combined
           | with their known ignorance of it, makes them extra cautious.
           | 
           | Veterans of many years are the ones who get too comfortable,
           | and too complacent. I guess the confidence of many years
           | leads them to work a little too closely to the blade.
           | 
           | This might be a universal human trait, across any industry.
        
           | guerrilla wrote:
           | That reminds me that Qualys was just hacked.
        
             | Godel_unicode wrote:
             | I wasn't surprised, I've used their product...
        
         | mrkramer wrote:
         | Pandemic has nothing to do with frequency of cyber security
         | incidents at least not on a large scale. Every time when
         | something global is happening spammers jump on the bandwagon
         | and try to lure people into opening their email spam and buy
         | something or download attachments filled with malware.
         | 
         | This global situation is specific because a lot of people are
         | working remotely so they easier to target and compromise then
         | before.
         | 
         | In the last decade or so a lot of businesses moved their
         | presence and other ops online and lots of them practice poor
         | cyber security that's why you see a lot of hacks happening.
         | 
         | Speaking of big companies they are always targets of state
         | sponsored attacks and industrial espionage.
        
         | threeseed wrote:
         | There was a US election.
         | 
         | And one in which many countries i.e. Russia, Israel, China,
         | Saudi Arabia, North Korea did not want Biden to win and who
         | have a record of state-sponsored hacking.
         | 
         | Solarwinds and the Microsoft compromises for example are
         | clearly at a scale beyond your regular criminal hacker.
        
         | dEnigma wrote:
         | It wouldn't surprise me if the pandemic had an influence on
         | some of these hacks. E.g. at our company there are some PCs
         | still running Windows 7. For that reason they had no direct
         | internet access, only to the internal network. But since about
         | half the workforce, or at times more, had to work from home,
         | and the licenses of our ERP software are bound to hardware, IT
         | had to connect those PCs to the internet again, so the office
         | workers could access them from home.
         | 
         | Of course the whole situation was less than ideal to begin
         | with, but now it's even worse.
        
           | lostlogin wrote:
           | > there are some PCs still running Windows 7.
           | 
           | A humble brag!
           | 
           | There are some very elderly machines out there.
        
           | dboreham wrote:
           | Just to point out this makes no sense: you can have
           | connectivity between host A and host B without also enabling
           | transitive connectivity to the world of hacker-contolled host
           | N.
        
             | dEnigma wrote:
             | I should also mention that it isn't in-house IT, but a
             | separate company, and the whole thing was set up in a
             | rushed effort late on a Friday afternoon the week before
             | the whole working from home business would start (our
             | management slept on it until the last minute), with a lot
             | of other companies requesting the same support from the IT
             | company at the same time. Not that it completely excuses
             | everything, and as you can tell from the Windows 7 PCs it
             | was never the most secure setup, but simply to explain some
             | of the reasons behind the mess.
        
               | Kalium wrote:
               | This has all the hallmarks of an organization that views
               | IT as a cost center rather than an enabler. Such an
               | organization will tend to resent any spending on IT, so
               | it's unfortunately not a surprise that it has likely
               | scrimped and saved its way into ineffectual IT.
        
             | ethbr0 wrote:
             | I believe this is assuming companies have segmented
             | networks and jump hosts.
             | 
             | In my experience, most... don't.
             | 
             | Enterprise IT at non-tech companies is an absolute #&@_
             | show. The only rationale I've been able to come with is: if
             | some portion of your company isn't developing / keeping up
             | with tech trends, your IT shop isn't going to be pressured
             | to either.
        
               | Godel_unicode wrote:
               | It's also the case that the perception of non-technical
               | companies having garbage IT means they get overlooked by
               | more savy admins in their job-hunt. Very few people want
               | to drag a manufacturer kicking and screaming into modern
               | IT, when it's way easier to get a job with a company that
               | gets it.
               | 
               | This year is going to be huge for Google cloud and m365.
        
               | Kalium wrote:
               | It's also been my experience that non-technical companies
               | sometimes strongly undervalue IT or programming
               | expertise. Few who have a choice ways to take a job at a
               | rate well under market using outdated technologies with
               | an employer who will not value them.
               | 
               | I had one of those jobs for a while. It was awful. The
               | worst part was the ridiculous demands (example: all bugs
               | should be fixable in 30 minutes or less) on top of the
               | embarrassingly low pay.
        
               | buran77 wrote:
               | > non-technical companies sometimes strongly undervalue
               | IT or programming expertise
               | 
               | Half of this is actually the right way to do it. On one
               | hand undervaluing IT in almost any company these days is
               | a major problem waiting to blow up. IT isn't just an end,
               | it's the means to do everything else. Using computers but
               | ignoring any good IT practice under the excuse that it's
               | not an IT company is like working from an office with
               | asbestos, lead paint, and black mold because you're not a
               | construction company.
               | 
               | But on the other hand non-technical companies, meaning
               | ones without a strong IT culture and focus, _should_
               | undervalue programming expertise. One of the worst things
               | a non-tech company should do is deploy all kinds of
               | custom IT solutions developed internally by their
               | "programmers with expertise". Invariably (and I mean this
               | in the most literal sense possible) they will end up with
               | a patchwork of systems that nobody understands or
               | maintains properly but which underpins all the core
               | services the company needs or delivers.
        
               | danaris wrote:
               | "Undervaluing", by definition, means "valuing something
               | _under_ its actual value to you. " It doesn't just mean
               | "value the thing less than you do now," or "value the
               | thing less than the average."
               | 
               | So...no, undervaluing programming expertise is never a
               | good thing, whether your particular needs are for a lot
               | of programming or only a little. Either you need exactly
               | _zero_ programming--in which case undervaluing it is
               | impossible--or you need _some_ --in which case you need
               | to value it _the right amount_.
        
               | buran77 wrote:
               | Well you're technically correct but I was hoping my point
               | was clear beyond the vocabulary nit-picking. This being
               | said I also suggested "the right amount" of value such
               | companies should put on those skills is none, because it
               | suggest they have wrong priorities and/or unrealistic
               | expectations of what they can achieve. You can't
               | undervalue 0. Nit-picking works both ways but just lowers
               | the quality conversation.
               | 
               | In general precision is important but in this case it
               | doesn't make that much of a difference besides a
               | linguistic discussion. Let's try to look beyond it and
               | more at the point I was trying to make: In the companies
               | referenced above, as I understand them, valuing
               | "programming expertise" at all is setting yourself up for
               | disaster. You'll be tempted to use it but pretty much by
               | definition in those companies you have no ability to
               | support the outcome long term. Even tech focused
               | companies have a hard time keeping up with the custom
               | solutions they develop and are struggling with technical
               | debt.
               | 
               | If you worked in these companies you know how this goes
               | and have seen the story countless times. IT manager of
               | small IT dept has a "great idea", hires some people to
               | implement it, and they get it sort of done with the
               | limited resources. Pretty soon both the techies and the
               | manager move on to greener pastures, leaving the
               | solutions in the hands of someone with little to no
               | interest in it but who has another "great idea". The best
               | solutions are manageable ones and custom stuff is hard to
               | manage in the best of cases. Programming expertise is
               | like a live grenade, only useful in capable hands (which
               | "non-tech" companies are almost without exception not).
        
               | Kalium wrote:
               | I think your first scenario is a good illustration of
               | undervaluing IT, with attendant eventual disaster.
               | 
               | Perhaps your second is IT being _over_ valued? You've
               | described a situation where technologies are being
               | deployed inappropriately by an organization ill-equipped
               | to handle the ongoing effort required. This is the sort
               | of silver bullet thinking I would expect from leadership
               | that does not understand IT beyond that it is powerful.
        
               | buran77 wrote:
               | > You've described a situation where technologies are
               | being deployed inappropriately by an organization ill-
               | equipped to handle the ongoing effort required.
               | 
               | I took the archetypal "non-technical companies" you gave
               | as an example earlier. If I understood your meaning
               | correctly in the vast majority of those cases
               | undervaluing "programming expertise" is probably the best
               | thing to do. And by "undervaluing" I mean they such
               | companies should not consider this as a skill they should
               | rely on to build their IT around.
               | 
               | It's not that the skill is not useful in itself, just
               | that it doesn't serve that type of company well, and
               | valuing it suggests the companies are considering heading
               | in waters that they're unlikely to successfully navigate.
               | 
               | Most of those companies will do things inappropriately
               | _because_ they are ill-equipped to handle this. For all
               | intents and purposes  "programming expertise" in such a
               | company is like driving drunk. Sure you can get home safe
               | anyway but that's not a reason to be proud of. Or you can
               | crash but the real issue isn't that you couldn't cut it
               | while driving drunk. You shouldn't be doing it to begin
               | with.
        
               | ethbr0 wrote:
               | I think there are two different kinds of IT value.
               | 
               | The first: I am a competent employee, who can do what
               | needs to be done (in whatever technology).
               | 
               | The second: I am a forward-thinking planner, who surveys
               | and keeps abreast of options and can identify, test, and
               | deploy appropriate ones.
               | 
               | In my experience, it's the second that's lacking. Aka the
               | "we can only deploy if Microsoft holds our hands through
               | it" shops. Usually 1/2 because of lacking talent and 1/2
               | because of lacking / incorrect policies.
               | 
               | I've seen, but haven't seen too many, instances of
               | "insert crazy state-of-the-art technology." Usually it's
               | just institutional paralysis that prevents _anything_
               | from getting done.
        
               | HappyDreamer wrote:
               | > non-technical companies sometimes strongly undervalue
               | IT or programming expertise
               | 
               | They might also be unable to know if a job applicant is
               | good at IT or not? And listen mostly to how he/she
               | describes him/herself, and how confident he/she sounds?
               | 
               | Meaning, the company in effect hires IT people a bit
               | randomly, and then mostly finds people who aren't that
               | good at their job.
               | 
               | And if the company started paying more, then, more
               | competent people, but also lots of more so-so competent
               | people, would apply for the job? And I wonder if the
               | company then still ends up with a random mediocre IT
               | people who are unable to really secure the network? Just
               | that the salaries are higher?
               | 
               | I wonder if the underlying problem is that 99% of the
               | population is unable to know if someone is good at
               | software or not
        
               | jlg23 wrote:
               | +1. Even when being told (for money!) to do the right
               | thing most pay the consultant fee but don't act.
               | 
               | True story: A friend was pentesting a large company
               | network in Germany, wrote his report and got paid. Years
               | later, when being hired as head of IT security, he pulled
               | out his old report and simply tried the default/easily
               | crackable passwords he had discovered in the core
               | infrastructure: They all still worked.
               | 
               | If his section about "use jump hosts" was ever useful for
               | the company, it was because someone had that page open by
               | accident, needed a place to put down his mug of coffee -
               | et voila: His report even made a difference!
        
               | dredmorbius wrote:
               | This goes back well over a decade, but a talented Linux
               | admin at a tech shop had to spin up a fresh Windows VM
               | instance to use some MSIE-dependedent intranet app. By
               | the time they'd completed the task ten minutes later, the
               | instance had been pwned, on the office LAN.
               | 
               | It's a sh*tshow _everywhere_.
        
               | sbarre wrote:
               | Most non-tech companies don't have an IT department, they
               | outsource.
               | 
               | Which means they rely on those companies to do the right
               | thing, while not really prioritizing the work (i.e. not
               | giving it much budget), or being able to critically
               | evaluate the quality of the work being done.
               | 
               | So none of this is surprising.
        
               | bobbob1921 wrote:
               | Great point. + most of mgmt doesn't see the real value in
               | security until _after_ the first (major) incident has
               | occurred. (Has been my experience atleaste for  < 50
               | employee orgs.)
        
               | [deleted]
        
             | ddalex wrote:
             | VPNs ?
        
             | Kalium wrote:
             | You're absolutely correct. You can do that!
             | 
             | There may be some room to question the general technical
             | expertise and competence of a shop that runs a bunch of
             | Windows 7 systems, though. IT running beyond the limit of
             | their competency may not be capable of doing what you so
             | wisely and rightly point to.
        
               | reaperducer wrote:
               | _There may be some room to question the general technical
               | expertise and competence of a shop that runs a bunch of
               | Windows 7 systems, though_
               | 
               | Or they may simply not have a choice.
               | 
               | My company has a particular automated machine that I have
               | to work with once or twice a month. It is controlled by a
               | computer that runs Windows XP. It can only run Windows XP
               | because the company that made the software went out of
               | business years ago.
               | 
               | Because of that, the control computer is not permitted on
               | the public internet. When I interface with it, it's using
               | a dedicated laptop through a VPN to a remote session
               | which then accesses the control machine on a dialup
               | connection. It's slow as heck, but since I only have to
               | do it once or twice a month, I deal.
               | 
               | Just before the pandemic, we looked into replacing the
               | circa 1995 automated machine with a new one. Because of
               | the nature of the machine, and the local government
               | regulations about replacing it, the cost would have been
               | little over one million dollars. Not going to happen.
               | 
               | Everyone hates it. But that's why my company's IT
               | department, which tries hard to keep up with the times,
               | has a single Windows XP computer in its stable.
        
               | marshmallow_12 wrote:
               | which regs tells you what computers you can buy?
        
               | reaperducer wrote:
               | _which regs tells you what computers you can buy?_
               | 
               | Not all machines are computers.
        
               | Kalium wrote:
               | Sometimes medical devices and similar come with a
               | computer as part of a whole certified system. The
               | regulatory framework does not tell you which computer you
               | can buy, precisely, but it does tell you what
               | certifications your system must have to be used for a
               | given purpose.
               | 
               | Changing out the part for an unapproved one, obviously,
               | voids the certification.
        
           | dhosek wrote:
           | Some? I've never seen anything newer than Windows 7 on a
           | corporate PC. I'm sure they're out there somewhere but none
           | of the companies that I've worked at in the last 9 years has
           | ever had Windows 8 or newer.
        
             | jcrites wrote:
             | Amazon was on Windows 10 in 2020 (and probably earlier; I
             | don't remember when I upgraded while I was there).
        
             | inglor_cz wrote:
             | The last Windows 7 I saw in production was on Wednesday. An
             | attorney with a lot of secrets to protect had them on his
             | notebook.
             | 
             | He isn't entirely oblivious about security, has his hard
             | drive encrypted and encrypts some of his calls, but the
             | non-updated system is a disaster waiting to happen.
        
         | cloudking wrote:
         | Generally the only people I've seen transfer credentials
         | securely are IT and software engineers. You can count on every
         | other department to send passwords over plaintext channels.
        
       | naebother wrote:
       | > Whoever hacked Maza netted thousands of data points about the
       | site's users, including usernames, email addresses, and hashed
       | passwords, a new report from intelligence firm Flashpoint shows.
       | Two warning messages were then scrawled across the forum's home
       | page: "Your data has been leaked" and "This forum has been
       | hacked."
       | 
       | Oh no. Not my username, email address and hashed password. I'm
       | shaking right now. But then again there's always some idiot who
       | doesn't try to anonymize.
        
         | lstamour wrote:
         | All it takes is one hit traced to a misconfigured VPN or
         | browser, for example, to learn an IP address and thus real
         | user, at least from a law enforcement perspective... though I
         | suppose the same is true for any honeypot links. Same goes for
         | checking your "anonymous" email, unless the provider is only
         | accessible to check email on Tor, for example. Anonymity, like
         | security, is hard to do 24/7 if someone is actively interested
         | in you...
        
       | imwillofficial wrote:
       | What is the route somebody takes to join forums like this? I've
       | always found it fascinating. Even when I was a teenager.
        
         | imhoguy wrote:
         | word of mouth or challenges like Cicada 3301
         | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cicada_3301
        
         | cheeze wrote:
         | I've read that the biggest thing is referrals. Gotta be in the
         | know or 'trusted' by someone else in the scene
        
       | thrownaway69 wrote:
       | What does elders of HN do recommend if you find serious bug in
       | security company's system?
       | 
       | They don't have security.txt or bug bounty. First time I've had
       | to go thru data I've obtained and email multiple times to get
       | thing patched. They were ass about it.
       | 
       | p.s. The company is affiliated with three letter agencies and
       | basically offer them device decryption.
        
       | varjag wrote:
       | No honor among thieves.
        
       | praptak wrote:
       | It would be out of character for a government agency to act like
       | that.
       | 
       | Shutdown and a threatening message? Maybe. Dumping the data on
       | darknet? I'm not even sure if they can legally do that. Besides,
       | which agency wouldn't use that to gain even more possibly useful
       | information?
        
         | temp485850 wrote:
         | You've clearly never heard of intelligence laundering before.
        
         | libraryatnight wrote:
         | Am I the only person, when thinking of governments, that has
         | removed "legality" as a barrier to any potential action?
        
           | srswtf123 wrote:
           | You most certainly are not the only person.
           | 
           | At this point, I _presume_ governments are breaking every law
           | on the books. Who is going to stop them?
        
         | juanani wrote:
         | The government, in a time of war, will pull all sorts of nasty
         | shenanigans. Thankfully, we've been at war for a while so..
         | dont be traitors now.
        
         | cosmodisk wrote:
         | Nowadays you just call it the fight against terrorism and
         | greenlight whatever you want.
        
         | osipov wrote:
         | It would not be out of character for a government contractor...
        
       | sunstone wrote:
       | Traditionally the message on the hacked homepage should be: All
       | your base are belong to us.
        
         | 1f60c wrote:
         | What you say!!
        
           | RedShift1 wrote:
           | You have no chance to survive make your time!
        
         | smoldesu wrote:
         | Yeah, today's hackers lack class. The Cyberpunk codebase hack
         | would be pretty funny if someone awk'd the subtitle files to
         | say "Can I haz cheeseburger?", but I guess today's crowd is
         | more interested in editing HTML and CSS.
        
         | majkinetor wrote:
         | Damn be those hacker hackers for breaking such a great
         | tradition.
        
       | killjoywashere wrote:
       | In addition to law enforcement, keep in mind intel, counter-
       | intel, and private-yet-national (e.g. Mandiant, Kaspersky,
       | Sophos, et al)
        
       | marshmallow_12 wrote:
       | hmm. seems the US government hasn't been twiddling their thumbs
       | doing nothing about Russian Hackers after all...
        
       | joe_the_user wrote:
       | Everyone's excuse is "state actors" now and maybe they're right;
       | 
       |  _Only intelligence services or people who know where the servers
       | are located can pull off things like that," mused one mainstay of
       | Exploit. "Three forums in one month is just weird. I don't think
       | those were regular hackers. Someone is purposefully ruining
       | forums._
       | 
       | The thing with the state actor stuff is; once a actor state
       | creates some tooling and methodologies, what could possibly
       | prevent this from getting into private hands? (I mean, serious
       | question) States have huge computing power for cracking passwords
       | or whatever, state have "patience" but still, computing power can
       | be stolen (via botnets or however), any process can be automated,
       | etc.
        
       | lpriv wrote:
       | I suck cocks.
        
       | ivanech wrote:
       | [deleted]
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | dang wrote:
         | " _Please don 't complain about website formatting, back-button
         | breakage, and similar annoyances. They're too common to be
         | interesting. Exception: when the author is present. Then
         | friendly feedback might be helpful._"
         | 
         | https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        
           | ivanech wrote:
           | Whoops, sorry!
        
             | dang wrote:
             | Appreciated! These things genuinely are super annoying,
             | which is why we need the rule. It's about foregoing a local
             | optimum (justified but repetitive criticism of flaws in web
             | pages and software) for a global one (more interesting,
             | less predictable conversation).
        
       | lpriv wrote:
       | Hjj
        
       | lpriv wrote:
       | Gjj
        
       | gigatexal wrote:
       | The data that was harvested was leaked to other "dark web"
       | locations. The gangster move to take out your hacker competitors
       | is to "out" these hackers on something more social like a github
       | dump or to pastebin.
        
         | zelon88 wrote:
         | Unless you want to run extortion or blackmail against them.
        
         | ivrrimum wrote:
         | Yeah... like any serious hacker would use his real
         | email/identity when registering into a cybercriminal forum.
         | 
         | Clickbait..
        
       | beny23 wrote:
       | Was it due to an intern?
        
       | Strongylodon wrote:
       | People still post about crime on the internet?
       | 
       | A LOT of anti social people seem to act badly thinking no one is
       | going to even look at what logs exist due to existing policy, let
       | alone illegal sources of info that are used in parallel
       | construction.
       | 
       | https://www.npr.org/2021/03/04/973696073/a-former-police-chi...
        
       | cyberlab wrote:
       | > spurring fears among criminals that their identities might be
       | exposed
       | 
       | I imagine there is very little to gain from the leaked
       | credentials. I mean we are talking about cyber-criminals, who
       | always like to mess with their real IP with Tor or VPNs. And who
       | would be stupid enough to use their legal name on a darkweb
       | carding forum?
        
         | tgsovlerkhgsel wrote:
         | People make mistakes.
        
           | klingon79 wrote:
           | Or people just make it look like they've made mistakes.
           | 
           | Maybe this was an elaborate honeytrap set by the hackers for
           | the hacker hackers.
           | 
           | Possibly an AI independently hacked the hackers.
           | 
           | A hacker may have convinced an AI to hack the hackers while
           | posing as the hacker hackers. The AI then hacked the hackers'
           | honeytrap which exposed one single piece of data included by
           | mistake. Only the AI knows why, since the hacker was
           | brainwashed by a secret society of vegans.
           | 
           | News at 11.
        
         | alksjdalkj wrote:
         | You'd be surprised, after 10+ years worth of accounts and
         | online presence it's easy to trip up - reuse an account name
         | from years earlier, use their real email to register for a
         | domain, etc. Krebsonsecurity.com has a few articles where he
         | tracks down an attacker's real identity - e.g.
         | https://krebsonsecurity.com/2020/07/twitter-hacking-for-prof...
        
         | ryanlol wrote:
         | People have lost hundreds of thousands because they reused
         | their forum logins on jabber... Lots (most?) of the people on
         | these forums aren't hackers, but banking experts moving tens of
         | millions of stolen money around the world.
        
           | tgsovlerkhgsel wrote:
           | How did they lose the money, impersonation? Are they running
           | some informal banking/laundering system via jabber chats?
        
             | ryanlol wrote:
             | Hey, here's my new bitcoin address for payments:
             | 
             | Hey, here's the new bank account info to send stolen money
             | to:
             | 
             | Hey bro, can you borrow me 100k for a few days?
        
       | doniphon wrote:
       | Strike Back - XXI season teaser
        
       | williesleg wrote:
       | About fucking time those commie chinese bastards get their shit
       | stolen. Hopefully now I won't get those shit calls about my car
       | warranty. Assholes.
        
       | ChuckMcM wrote:
       | Personally I would expect to see more of this than we have. After
       | all, with crypto cash exploding in value it seems like there are
       | assets to be seized. But the cynic in me suspects that its really
       | just an escalation of the world wide cyber war that has been
       | going on for years now and is getting more resources as it hits
       | more sensitive spots.
        
       | 0xbadcafebee wrote:
       | I'll bet money this is a private corporation that sells 0days
       | taking out their competition.
       | 
       | State-sponsored entities and research groups don't take down
       | forums, for the same reason you don't arrest all the low-level
       | perps on the street. You need to watch them to trail them to the
       | bigger crimes. And blackhats don't take out forums of other
       | blackhats.
        
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       (page generated 2021-03-07 23:00 UTC)