[HN Gopher] Nodes.io - A new way to create with code
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Nodes.io - A new way to create with code
Author : triptych
Score : 338 points
Date : 2021-03-07 00:16 UTC (22 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (nodes.io)
(TXT) w3m dump (nodes.io)
| coolgeek wrote:
| This seems interesting. It would be really cool to rapidly
| prototype and modify/refactor apps using this.
|
| But it seems to me like the _much harder_ part of this problem is
| 1) developing the nodes, and 2) ensuring that the nodes have the
| appropriate (sufficiently flexible /extensible) API for
| connections.
|
| I guess what I'm saying is that this needs a "standard library"
| of nodes - at multiple layers of abstraction - if it is to gain
| traction. This is especially true, given that there are several
| other projects that are at least functionally equivalent.
| Hnaomyiph wrote:
| Seems cool and very interesting. I don't have too much to add
| beyond giving praise due to the sheer number of low-quality
| replies on this submission. If the people who made this are
| reading; don't let an off-day on hn discourage you.
| notdan wrote:
| I need something like this to let non-programmers create some
| basic JavaScript scripts/flows in an app I have. Obviously would
| need to be some level of power user but hopefully doesnt require
| them to know how to code. Has anyone tried this or any of the
| related projects and have an opinion or experience on what works
| best for a "normal" user?
| nfoz wrote:
| I love this category of thing, glad to see more of it.
|
| How do projects like this get off the ground / get funding?
| DecoPerson wrote:
| Looks like a new assembly of old ideas that's different enough it
| might do better for some purposes. Very exciting.
|
| I was about to start prototyping some tool ideas I had in it, but
| I can't find it's source or license info anywhere. By Googling, I
| found the GitHub repo [0], but it's empty of code and looks to be
| used for issue tracking only.
|
| I can't see something that's trying to be an ecosystem being very
| successful without being open (see: every closed-source
| language/runtime ever).
|
| I couldn't even find any example code. I tried clicking the
| examples on the home page. I even tried clicking "Playground" and
| it wasn't a link. The only CTA I could find was "Download Nodes"!
|
| [0] https://github.com/nodes-io/nodes-io
| axguscbklp wrote:
| >What if programming was about ideas, not semicolons?
|
| This is like saying "What if writing was about ideas, not
| periods?" It already is.
| nickthemagicman wrote:
| Yeah are they trying to sell python?
| [deleted]
| heldrida wrote:
| Nodes.io is looking great!
|
| *For other HN readers: If you're going to leave a message, can
| you ask yourself, if it's really worth to be so negative? *
| [deleted]
| eyelidlessness wrote:
| I very seldom share anything of my own here for this reason.
| It's cool to have high expectations but it's really a shame how
| much people just dump on everything without any consideration
| for the intent or level of effort that went into something.
|
| It's disheartening. I have a project I've just launched that
| I'm incredibly proud of, with all the warts a just launched
| thing might have, and I've barely mentioned it here and
| certainly won't Show HN because I would be heartbroken to see
| it trashed by a bunch of strangers.
| fermienrico wrote:
| Why are negative comments bad? I wouldn't mind at all.
| Rudeness is not acceptable but people poking holes at your
| project is a good thing. People poked holes at Dropbox back
| in the day. Just take negative comments, grow a thick skin
| and move on. Please don't hesitate one iota, would love to
| see your work.
|
| The thing is, HN is a pretty safe place to test and get early
| feedback. Are the comments tell you it sucks? Hey, they cared
| enough to say it sucks, so incorporate their feedback and try
| again.
|
| Most people who are negative here have high expectations or
| are clueless. Ignore if they are the latter kind!
| hermitcrab wrote:
| I agree totally. And, as a one-man-band indie developer who
| is totally dependent on sales of my software to make a
| living, the pain of low sales is much greater than the pain
| of any criticsm. Also a lot of the comments have been
| incredibly useful, even if they were a bit painful.
| ALittleLight wrote:
| I think the negative comments are inversely proportional to
| the language used to hype the product or project. If you make
| an app that points out carcinogens in the user's grocery
| list, and explain that your project's mission is curing
| cancer then people are going to have a lot of negative things
| to say about how this approach will never do that, etc.
| Conversely, if you describe it tightly as what it is there
| will be less room for people to have negative takes and more
| for people to appreciate the project for what it is.
|
| I encourage you to share your project. Negative comments,
| even if they happen, won't diminish your accomplishments.
| hermitcrab wrote:
| Trying selling software commercially online for a few years.
| Your skin will soon thicken up a bit. ;0)
| Aeolun wrote:
| > level of effort that went into something
|
| The level of effort that went into something is absolutely
| irrelevant to your users if it doesn't solve their problem.
| eyelidlessness wrote:
| Okay thanks Jira, sometimes people are just making stuff to
| learn, or explore, or experiment, or share something that
| addressed their own needs or wants.
| esperent wrote:
| The people who knee-jerk complain here are not the users
| though. They are the people who say "I wouldn't use this,
| therefore it's useless".
| Aeolun wrote:
| I think it's mostly that they think the people that seem
| targeted by the product would not (generally) use it.
|
| That can be either an error on their part, a problem with
| the copy on the website, or a deliberate choice on the
| creators' part (e.g. hobby project, I don't care).
| beaconstudios wrote:
| looks cool guys! I'm working on something similar (won't be so
| vulgar as to self-promote on your post though) - it's exciting to
| see more people exploring this space. I think there's a lot of
| potential in visual programming going forwards; I know it's been
| explored before but it feels like smart phones pre-iPhone: lots
| of entries but no-one has captured the essence of it into a
| compelling product yet (outside of specialist but great tools
| like Houdini and UE Blueprints).
|
| Have you shared this with the Future of Coding community
| (https://futureofcoding.org/)? They're very excited by these
| kinds of tools.
| spiralganglion wrote:
| A few of the Nodes devs are in the FoC community, yep!
| Borlands wrote:
| This is really great,loving the whole code catalog and podcast.
|
| Codeflow looks interesting, but is mislisted as open source in
| the catalog[1] although private on github, and there's a new
| sign up for beta option on their page - I believe it's no
| longer open source
|
| [1] https://futureofcoding.org/catalog/codeflow.html
|
| [2] https://github.com/codeflowlang
| uglycoyote wrote:
| I agree with some of the other posters who are saying that that
| it is difficult to figure out what this does or who it is for.
|
| There's a huge headline saying "nodes for everyone". So, it's for
| my grandmother and my son and my uncle too?
|
| Looking at the examples I see that there's a lot of cool looking
| geometry and special effects. So maybe "nodes is for everyone who
| wants to make cool visual things?"
|
| Is it for artists who don't want to have do deal with code? Is it
| for coders who want their code to be more modular?
|
| The best way I can understand this is maybe it's a competitor to
| something like Houdini, for people who are working at the
| intersection of art and code, it's like a procedural generation
| tool for art.
|
| I thought it might be something which lets you build cool stuff
| without much code, but I was disappointed in the lack of
| modularity of some of the examples -- e.g. the "basic webGL"
| example in the playground. In that example almost everything
| interesting is going on in the one shader node.
|
| Similarly with the boids example, the entire boid simulation is
| in one node with Javascript. It's not a reusable node.
|
| I think the examples would be a lot more compelling if the nodes
| were each some trivial piece of functionality than anyone could
| look at and understand within 30 seconds, but they were put
| together into impressive creations. Like MIT Scratch for adults.
|
| The problem with these examples is that there's too much
| complexity baked into a single node, which makes it difficult to
| understand those as reusable nodes. If I'm understanding it
| correctly, reusing nodes is the whole idea here.
| distalx wrote:
| This looks amazing.
| anotheryou wrote:
| Looks like a web based TouchDesigner :) (all originating from
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartz_Composer )
|
| How does it compare? What's new?
|
| Certainly could say somewhere that it's one of these node-based
| visual programming languages made for artists. Well the node part
| is in the name at least :).
| [deleted]
| pharke wrote:
| After taking a quick look at existing visual scripting tools[0],
| it seems like the main feature differentiating this from the
| others is that the nodes are code modules instead of primitives.
| I think this is where visual programming can really shine, write
| modules in a text editor and then wire them up in a visual
| editor. This gives you the high level, conceptual view of the
| program flow without the excessively verbose visual spaghetti of
| wiring up individual operations and control flow statements. I
| think UE4's blueprints can work this way as well, writing a new
| node in C++ and then wiring it up, but they're not really
| portable to the wider development ecosystem.
|
| [0] https://github.com/ivanreese/visual-programming-
| codex/blob/m...
| dmnsgn wrote:
| We tried to stay close to what you would write without it,
| using npm packages and all that comes with it. TBH, spaghetti
| cables is kind of inherent to this kind of programming when
| scaling up but having code modules instead of just primitives
| is helpful indeed, letting you give the weight you want each
| node to have. We're also thinking about node groups as another
| level of abstraction to reduce visual cluttering.
| ingenieros wrote:
| There's really nothing unique or "differentiating" about
| nodes.io Plenty of other visual scripting environments offer
| power users the ability to code their own nodes: cables.gl,
| TouchDesigner, vvvv, Grasshopper, Houdini.....
| herunan wrote:
| I love this. We need to get out of the usual representations of
| data and get 'out there' a little more. Who said art and science
| couldn't coalesce? Nothing wrong with a bit of wackiness. Will be
| following this closely.
| taldridge wrote:
| Whenever I see things like this I tend to think back to this:
|
| > Largely I think that text is already a highly-structured
| graphical notation, and that when people try to get "away" from
| it they're often doing so from a position of ignorance of how
| very long it took to get to where we are in textual notations,
| and how very many technical innovations are latent in textual
| notations. Visually unambiguous yet uniform symbol sets,
| combinatorial-positional word formation, linear spatio-temporal
| segregation, punctuation and structured page layout .. these are
| all technologies in writing that we had to laboriously invent,
| and they have purposes, advantages! Similarly in coding, we had
| to invent and adapt technologies from verbal and mathematical
| notations refined over millennia: lines and columns, indentation,
| block layout, juxtaposition and precedence, scope, evaluation
| order, comments, grammars, version control, diff and merge
| algorithms ... the pile of structuring technologies embedded in
| the textual representation of programs isn't free, and it isn't
| useless. So I'm just really cautious when people suggest throwing
| it all out for some hypothetical reinvention. You need those
| structures: so you've got an immediate problem of "what are you
| going to use instead", and a longer-term question of "what makes
| you think you're not going to wind up right back at the same
| place ten thousand years of refining graphemes-on-a-page wound
| up"?
|
| (Taken from https://graydon2.dreamwidth.org)
| breakfastduck wrote:
| Ohhh, this looks like Cycling 74's Max MSP.
|
| Lot of seeming derision in the comments but I LOVE Max and this
| is an amazing step in that direction for visuals.
| mirekrusin wrote:
| Is it (going to be) open source or not?
| verifex wrote:
| This looks like Node-Red, but with less pre-made nodes, and
| designed to show stuff, I love the idea. Also, maybe this is a
| problem with my installation, but I only see one type of block
| "custom". If I'm supposed to use npm to install any blocks that
| support anything, this isn't an ideal starting point, too little
| information on getting started.
|
| Looking at the examples, I'm a bit overwhelmed with how much new
| boilerplate code I need to remember in order to use all the fancy
| GUI. I like the idea of having the code be front-and-center, but
| if you require me to remember how to use the UI elements, why not
| make some of that code auto-generated based on some UI widget? I
| like what you have, but it's so minimalist (or brutalist as
| someone else pointed out) that I find the actual utility of the
| visual controls... disappointing.
| ralusek wrote:
| I'm so sick of this ironic brutalist web design. That HTML blue.
| It's so frequently paired with that gross salmon color.
| ibn_khaldun wrote:
| I have not thought about the irony of "HTML blue" before, but I
| am not a fan of its use, nor that inner-nostril shade of pink
| (please don't insult salmon by calling the color that). I love
| Space Mono/Grotesk and I don't understand why they chose Space
| Mono as the _body_ type, when it has a lower x-height and lower
| weight. They were already using Space Grotesk to begin with for
| headings and else where (albeit sparingly
| /unpredictably)...strange.
|
| All of this has nothing to do with the software, which looks
| really interesting and may be quite successful in the future.
| But it's worth noting and there's nothing wrong with pointing
| these things out. ralusek's post should not be so grey.
| eyelidlessness wrote:
| I personally like seeing it because it's still not as pervasive
| as a lot of design trends and feels like there's still some
| variety on the web. But I pain for anyone struggling with the
| accessibility of these designs.
| wccrawford wrote:
| Even just directly on white, I find that Blue to be far too
| powerful. On that salmon, it's _horrid_.
|
| Combined with the fonts and font sizes, it's rather hard to
| enjoy the site.
| singhrac wrote:
| I'm fine with brutalist web design, what I can't stand is low
| font-weights and small font sizes, like assuming all of your
| readers are on a 4K screen with the eyes of a 20 year old.
|
| On a more substantive note, this looks really neat. However, as
| a data scientist of sorts I've found that what people really
| want is not some sort of interactive 3D visualization, but a
| well-computed chart showing a sort of natural experiment (e.g.
| the results of an A/B test) with the right axes. Has anyone
| used a 3D visualization outside of tech demos? I guess the
| NYTimes has some neat stuff that's useful.
| systemvoltage wrote:
| It started with Dropbox:
| https://www.itsnicethat.com/news/dropbox-rebrand-collins-gra...
| eyelidlessness wrote:
| I'm certain that I saw similar stuff on Bloomberg well before
| that. But yeah it's been a thing for a while.
| dannyow wrote:
| For completeness, here https://github.com/ivanreese/visual-
| programming-codex is a pretty comprehensive list of different
| takes on visual/flow based programming through the ages...
| lmeyerov wrote:
| Been following the creators for awhile and very much happy to see
| them democratizing their difficult skillset.
|
| Most designers -- think anyone using figma -- are effectively
| locked out of modern interactive and animated visuals due to not
| knowing hardcore shaders + effective js coding. To get a feel for
| how hard that is, look at the public timeline of Shirley Wu,
| another wonderful award-winning designer and experienced js
| coder, to pick this kind of stuff up. Nodes makes it a lot more
| accessible, similar to Max/msp for musicians. Once you look
| beyond the over-claiming, which is clearly nails-on-chalkboard
| for most engineers and scientists as you are seeing in the
| comments -- this is a wonderful and enabling project.
|
| Extra impressive is they do not seem to try to 'dumb it down'.
| They are a consultancy and (seem to) try to use it for their own
| bespoke advanced installations. I don't know how well this will
| translate to others, but the success of Max msp and super
| collider make me optimistic that it can grow to those levels.
| Cycling 74 supports 20+ employees and empowers many musicians,
| and as Nodes can be used for commercial art (web+tv ads, music
| videos, landing pages, ...), I can see them being even bigger.
| bezelbuttons wrote:
| > look at the public timeline of Shirley Wu,
|
| Do you have a link to this?
| lmeyerov wrote:
| https://twitter.com/sxywu/media?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwc.
| ..
| dmnsgn wrote:
| Being coders ourselves we focused on a programmer-first
| approach indeed. The idea came naturally from a gap we
| identified in our day-to-day practice at Variable.io (data-art,
| installations, generative systems, ...). It enables some
| collaboration with designers (through exposing some parameters
| of the UI) but still focus on the coding experience to bring
| our projects to life.
| dmnsgn wrote:
| Hi all, Damien here, one of Nodes creators. We tried to bring our
| own take in the visual programming space. We're still in beta and
| figuring out how people are using Nodes. Happy to answer any
| question you might have, AMA.
| motohagiography wrote:
| It's hard to overestimate the impact of this technique, though it
| is 5-10 years too soon. :)
|
| What this does is lets people reason about change in massively
| multivariate data sets. Like GPT level multi-variate. I look
| forward to seeing this applied to the state of ML models, as this
| is what we're going to need to express the complexity of a lot of
| techs we will all depend on.
|
| There is a casting pearls before swine problem they will need to
| overcome, as the level of management understanding to interpret
| and respond to the changes this framework expresses is going to
| take some years to get people with that level of technical
| sophistication into decision making positions.
|
| Near term, my impression is it will be amazing for getting
| funding for scientists of all kinds, and being used in hyper-
| competitive data fields like americas cup sailing, F1 racing, and
| spooky intelligence/social media company social engineering
| analysis, and I could see it being used in a new hybrid of quant
| trading funds, as any sufficiently advanced data vis is
| essentially arbitrage. All very rarefied niches with a high
| degree of autonomy. It may be too cool for making policy or lower
| level decisions in the near term, but this is super epic.
|
| When you look at the recent history of how data viz has impacted
| fields, it has always been way out ahead of the industries it
| served. I hacked around with 3D "coral" graph viz back around
| 99-01 (early CAIDA stuff) for internet security analysis in govt,
| and in spite of its incredible analytic power, the anecdata was
| it didn't get traction because it was unmanageably powerful.
| However, I think we're just entering a data viz renaissance, and
| this is the bar. Amazing.
| [deleted]
| barnaclejive wrote:
| I'm so confused.
|
| "Build interactive web apps"
|
| "Create bespoke tools"
|
| Any examples besides weird shapes?
| breakfastduck wrote:
| This isn't necessarily made for building enterprise web apps or
| social media sites.
|
| There always seems to be a complete absence of appreciation for
| value to artists on HN. This is very clearly a creative tool
| first and foremost.
| jpomykala wrote:
| Maybe weird shapes is the future of web? Forget about JS and
| React. This is future old man.
| goatlover wrote:
| CSS regions back from the dead?
| jspash wrote:
| Maybe it's for creating NFTs? Every one I've seen so far is
| hideous yet "priceless".
|
| Like the old saying: During a gold rush, sell shovels.
| pjmlp wrote:
| That is already here, since 2003, provided there is enough
| budget,
|
| https://www.outsystems.com/
| pharke wrote:
| I think it has other uses, being able to attach visualizations
| to data processing code is very helpful especially if it's
| simple to just drop in something like a histogram. It would be
| even nicer to have a way to scrub through the processed items
| and see them displayed in an easy to read format on the screen
| as you do so. Cypress allows this to a degree by recording the
| visual state of a page as tests are run and lets you hover over
| the output and see the layout change as you scroll up and down.
| fao_ wrote:
| 40-second video that lagged so much it was unplayable on my X200
| that runs discord fine, and can have 300 tabs open in firefox
| without a sweat. Obviously, we're off to a good start.
| Hnaomyiph wrote:
| Forever benchmarking on old hardware is counterintuitive to
| forward progress. As much as I love my T400, I know someday,
| probably sooner rather than later, it won't be suited to daily
| use.
| mrnothing_123 wrote:
| the power of HN, Speculation the conteiner is creating new
| instances like fire to HN traffic
| viraptor wrote:
| An embedded Vimeo video lagging most likely has nothing to do
| with the power of your laptop. It's just slow due to whatever
| issues Vimeo is having.
| Biganon wrote:
| Don't be snarky.
| domano wrote:
| Ran fine on my ipad.
| naebother wrote:
| Remember https://noflojs.org ?
| pjmlp wrote:
| Looks quite interesting, I always had a found spot for visual
| languages.
|
| The problem with visual spaghetti is the same as with monoliths,
| lack of understanding how to modularize the code.
|
| I think applying digital circuit design best practices to such
| tools would help more people to properly modularize their boxes.
| rgovostes wrote:
| Tangentially related, I've been thinking about how it is somewhat
| difficult to describe state machines in regular textual code, and
| it would be nice to have a drag-and-drop visual interface for
| mapping out the states and transitions, then tie regular code to
| the transition events.
|
| Is there anything like that out there? Or a good open source
| diagramming library that might lend itself to prototyping this?
| cryo wrote:
| QtCreator has a SCXML based visual editor for state charts
| https://doc.qt.io/qtcreator/creator-scxml.html
| rgovostes wrote:
| Thank you! This looks very much like it would fit my needs,
| and I love that the output is an XML file I can integrate
| with other tools.
| strogonoff wrote:
| You might be interested in XState[0] and its visualizer[1]. It
| is not drag and drop, but it does provide a nice visualization
| that can help debug state logic. I imagine it's possible to
| extend it to support visual manipulation and code generation.
|
| Project is JS/TS-specific, however.
|
| [0] https://github.com/davidkpiano/xstate
|
| [1]
| https://xstate.js.org/viz/?gist=bbcb4379b36edea0458f597e5eec...
| davidkpiano wrote:
| Thanks for sharing!
|
| > It is not drag and drop
|
| > I imagine it's possible to extend it to support visual
| manipulation and code generation
|
| It will be soon ;-)
| TFortunato wrote:
| Yakindu comes to mind as one (if you aren't allergic to eclipse
| :-) )
|
| https://www.itemis.com/en/yakindu/state-machine/
| domano wrote:
| I somehow fail to understand what this is, but am impressed by it
| nonetheless. Is this purely for animation designers with coding
| skills? I thought animation work is done in editors with even
| less code required usually, but for me as a developer this seems
| more approachable.
|
| I could not look at the advanced examples on my iPad though.
| eyelidlessness wrote:
| At least at a glance I think you've got this right. And I think
| it's the same kind of productivity boost that came with
| graphics tools getting JSX/etc bridges. You can design and dev
| in the same environment with minimal handoff, far fewer broken
| expectations when they render differently due to different
| presentation metrics, and tons of opportunity to automate the
| design-build process and visual documentation.
| dmnsgn wrote:
| We're more geared towards programmers as you define what each
| node does in their code but you can choose to expose selected
| node parameters when exporting, for a designer/animator to
| potentially tweak.
|
| Sorry about the advanced examples, some use WebGL and might
| have issues on iPad Safari that we'll need to check.
| cheeaun wrote:
| Wow, somehow looks similar to another site that I discovered few
| weeks ago: https://cables.gl/
|
| I googled and found this: https://nodes.io/story/#background
|
| > When we set off to create a tool of our own, there were already
| plenty of different node-based or visual scripting/programming
| tools and environments; VVVV, Houdini, TouchDesigner, Cables.gl,
| Vizor Patches, Lichen, MaxMSP, UE4 Blueprints and Origami were
| among the most popular.
| nafey wrote:
| There is a similar project for building web services visually:
| http://blyss.tech/
| jslakro wrote:
| It took 15 years from the first versions of Context Free Art to
| get to this point of evolution in that kind of experimental
| proposals. It's interesting anyway, a cool/creative hobby (I
| think no more than that)
| galfarragem wrote:
| Unpopular idea here (from a hobbyist programmer).
|
| I would "kill" for a text editor/IDE/REPL shaped as a spreadsheet
| where each cell is a block of code with 2 possible views (text or
| result) linkable to other cells. This "spreadsheet" would be
| programming language agnostic (each cell could use a different
| language) and I could organize/format my cells (location, colors,
| size, etc) as I wish.
| ReservedIgnac wrote:
| Sounds like microservices taken to the atomic level.
| jlundberg wrote:
| I am very curious about this idea of yours.
|
| Do you have a draft drawing of the concept or could you
| otherwise elaborate a bit more?
| galfarragem wrote:
| As an anecdote I used to use a spreadsheet to visually
| "assemble"[0] HTML code for a niche blog. Some cells would
| compute values to be used in other cells that would compose
| the final HTML code. Of course existent spreadsheets are way
| too rudimentary to use as an "Excel Code": cells don't act as
| a REPL for the language of your choice nor allow a "text
| view" with syntax highlighting.
|
| [0] Maybe because I have a background in Architecture, I tend
| to look at code as I would look at a house plan.
| progfix wrote:
| That's an idea that seems to be forming in the heads of a lot
| of people. I started working on something like that a couple of
| months ago. Blender is adding spreadsheet now. Excel is getting
| a more advanced language. ...
| david-cako wrote:
| Replit has touched on this idea, @tylerangert on twitter
| chrisweekly wrote:
| Yes! This concept aligns with MWeststrate's ideas about
| reactivity / observables, implemented in MobX
|
| https://mobx.js.org/README.html
| FractalHQ wrote:
| Ellx.io is doing this at the moment afaik
| galfarragem wrote:
| Ellx.io seems promising, I'll toy with it a bit, thanks!
| Unsurmountable objections:
|
| - not language agnostic (JS only, AFAIK).
|
| - lack of _native_ desktop app to keep it fast.
|
| - not spreadsheet view only. I would then hide/collapse
| syntax highlighted code inside of cells as I wish.
| regularfry wrote:
| I suspect Emacs could be convinced to do this. Right now
| there's the Simple Emacs Spreadsheet which uses elisp as a
| formula language and has a grid view, but I can't imagine
| shelling out to alternative interpreters would be beyond the
| wit of man.
| primitivesuave wrote:
| This is actually a great idea. I had a conversation over beers
| with some people in a higher intellectual realm who were
| discussing the details of flow-based languages. It was the
| general consensus among them that in the future, flow-based
| programming will be the way everyone learns structural
| thinking, and we will look back on sequential instruction
| programming the same way we look back on punch cards today.
| voceboy521 wrote:
| this seems obviously true. but why has it failed for like 40
| years so far? many attempts have been made. for some reason
| all tools seem to fail, no matter how simple, they cause more
| problems than they're worth.
| [deleted]
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