[HN Gopher] Dr. Seuss Books Deemed Offensive Will Be Delisted fr...
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Dr. Seuss Books Deemed Offensive Will Be Delisted from eBay
Author : undefined1
Score : 38 points
Date : 2021-03-04 20:16 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.wsj.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.wsj.com)
| offby37years wrote:
| This is what the fall of an empire looks like. If you're bearish
| on this being a Chinese century, ponder where this unchecked neo-
| McCarthyism leads to.
| dTal wrote:
| ...because China has such a open, free culture?
|
| This take feels pretty left field, to be honest.
| nscalf wrote:
| Censorship is the first tool of the CCP. Abduction and forced
| re-education is the second. Let's ponder where forceful
| suppression of your people in the modern age, like Hong Kong,
| leads to. People whining about how dr Seuss is a bit racist
| until it's censored is a far way from what the manipulative,
| brutalistic, and violent government of China does.
|
| And that's not even mentioning the active genocide they're
| committing...
| Barrin92 wrote:
| gentle reminder that in China currently if you want to create
| audiovisual fiction you cannot portrait an extramarital affair
| that ends well. There are about a bazillion such rules.
|
| Also I'm unsure what that has to do with the American Empire,
| does Darpa and the military run on Dr Seuss comics?
| tim333 wrote:
| The thing seems a bit silly.
|
| Curious what was offensive I found the books are on youtube and
| I'm guessing it's drawing Chinese
| https://youtu.be/Vl6wD6EGOVk?t=228 and tribal Africans
| https://youtu.be/Vl6wD6EGOVk?t=519 looking like cartoon versions
| of those. Does this means cartoon caricatures are only acceptable
| if they are of white westerners?
|
| I mean I can understand the publishers thinking they may get in
| trouble and it's easier to drop those lines but the thing seems
| to be getting a bit out of hand.
| offby37years wrote:
| Yes. When only whites can be racist, only whites can be
| caricatured.
| emptysongglass wrote:
| Not only whites can be racist. Any race in power, anywhere,
| becomes the new "white man" when powers are tipped. There is
| nothing fundamental to your skin color: all of us bear the
| seeds of our future cruelty. And until we address desire and
| deconstitute it atom by atom, none of us will ever be free.
| Dig1t wrote:
| I don't understand the need for the "in power"
| qualification. It specifically is saying that
| discrimination based on race is not racist unless they are
| the majority.
|
| So does this mean that if an asian man murders a black man,
| specifically because he is black, that this is not racism?
|
| I honestly don't get it.
| jfengel wrote:
| They're not just cartoons. They're caricatures associated with
| racist tropes, which have been used in conjunction with
| discrimination and even violence. The African pictures in
| particular look like minstrel shows, which were deliberately
| intended to demean black people in America.
|
| It's not that the publishers were afraid of getting in trouble.
| It's that they were ashamed of their own book -- with good
| reason.
| BitwiseFool wrote:
| Am I not alone in thinking this Neo-puritanism is going too far?
| sergefaguet wrote:
| No, you are not. A substantial majority of people consider this
| foolish
|
| Just think of it as a weird entertainment show that doesn't
| have to be rational. There are crazies in all historical eras;
| the various social justice people are ours :)
| 5tefan wrote:
| No. Seems a minority gained too much influence. No idea why
| they are perceived as influential in the first place? They
| exhibit horrible behaviour. Letting go of Seuss seems like a
| small price to pay to get rid of them. But the sum total is
| censorship.
| undefined1 wrote:
| The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small
| Minority
|
| It suffices for an intransigent minority - a certain type of
| intransigent minorities - to reach a minutely small level,
| say three or four percent of the total population, for the
| entire population to have to submit to their preferences.
| Further, an optical illusion comes with the dominance of the
| minority: a naive observer would be under the impression that
| the choices and preferences are those of the majority.
|
| https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-
| dict...
| vipa123 wrote:
| When a shark gets to taste a drop of blood does it just head
| home afterwards?
| DanBC wrote:
| Had you ever heard of these six books before today? Have you
| ever read them? How many were sold?
|
| We've been sanitising kids books for decades now.
|
| What version of _Charlie and the Chocolate Factory_ do you own?
| The original with actual African slaves and the colonialist
| rescue narrative, or the later version with Oompa Loompas and
| the colonialist rescue narrative? What version of _Edward 's
| Sneeze_ from the Thomas the Tank Engine series do you own? The
| one that uses the N word and has a black face joke, or the one
| that replaced the N word but kept the black face gag?
|
| There are like a million kids books published each year. We're
| not going to miss the few that have lazy, racist, stereotypes.
| stolenmerch wrote:
| You just proved the point that things have gone too far.
| Instead of quietly editing out a drawing or word or two it
| now must be banned in every store, from ever platform, and
| even the word "Mulberry", for example, must be purged from
| theme parks. I wish there weren't old racist things it books
| too, but the weird censorship and book banning creeps me out.
| Bostonian wrote:
| Why should eBay override the wants of buyers in this way? How
| many people think the continued sale of Dr. Seuss books is doing
| harm? I think there are opportunities for less woke companies to
| gain share.
| ostenning wrote:
| I guess we can start burning these books soon, seems like the
| next logical step
| nph5667 wrote:
| What bothers me is the speed with which this process - "accused
| -> convinced -> executed" happens. We are not discussing things
| anymore. Today, you could tweet any accusations, and, no matter
| how ridiculous they look at first, it will lead to a race of who
| is taking them most seriously. Something definitely is broken.
| Look at what happened to the "okay". 4chan forced that meme 5
| years ago in what they thought is a mischievous parody of
| ridiculousness of the cancel culture, and recently I watched CNL
| where the audience gasped in disbelief when one of the sketches
| included "o"-word. 5 years only, and most common (almost used
| "o"-word, sorry) sign became a synonym of hatred and racism. And
| now, Dr. Seuss. What's next, someone will tweet the act of
| breathing is racist? Do you really think it's impossible?
| replwoacause wrote:
| >We are not discussing things anymore.
|
| Sure we are. There has been discussion. Just because you
| weren't involved in it, which is natural since I doubt you work
| for Dr. Seuss Enterprises, doesn't mean it didn't take place.
| The onus is on them to protect Dr. Seuss' legacy and it is
| important to change with the times.
|
| This is not the first time something like this has happened and
| it won't be the last. There are plenty of examples to be found
| online of popular family cartoons which depicted racial
| stereotypes.
|
| Go check out the Anti-black imagery in the Jim Crow Museum of
| Racist Memorabilia and see if you think, by following the same
| logic you displayed in your comment, this stuff should still be
| allowed while keeping in mind it was mainstream acceptable
| during its time.
|
| https://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/cartoons/
| retox wrote:
| For some 'fun' just search for 'is x racist'. What o-word are
| you referring to, ordinary? ok?
|
| https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/04/air-pollutio...
| balozi wrote:
| I realize now just how easy it is for any society to fall into
| the abyss.
| bobcallme wrote:
| Finally, the homosexual problem will be solved.
| Udik wrote:
| Oh yes, finally the book burnings!
| tomdell wrote:
| Surprised by the majority of comments here. How many of you have
| actually looked at these pictures? A private entity decided to
| stop publishing certain things. Another private entity is
| declining to sell old copies of said things. This is not "cancel
| culture" like conservative commentators want to make it out to be
| - and I think the publisher and now eBay are making the right
| call - children are impressionable, and presenting racial
| caricatures like these to them is not good.
| allturtles wrote:
| > children are impressionable
|
| Like how exposure to pictures of demons and pretending to be
| wizards turns young D&D players into satanists? And exposure to
| violent rap lyrics turns them into murderers?
|
| I have looked at the pictures, some make me cringe a bit,
| others don't seem like a big deal to me. And ultimately the
| Seuss copyright holders can do what they want, it's their
| property. I'm not sure why eBay feels the need to get involved.
| But I found the "think of the children" arguments for banning
| media equally unconvincing when they were conservative talking
| points thirty years ago.
|
| Edit: Also, almost all kids will be exposed to these books with
| a parent present, having it read to them. The parent can
| contextualize the images however they like, reducing any risk
| of bad 'impressions'.
| TheAdamAndChe wrote:
| A handful of companies influencing the overton window of the
| entire nation in response to easily upset Twitter mobs is
| precisely what I consider to be part of cancel culture.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| The irony is that the people I see complaining about are
| usually very pro market forces and let businesses do what
| they want type people.
| DC1350 wrote:
| eBay still sells Mein Kampf. Banning books is stupid.
| rhema wrote:
| Now do fraudulent GPU listings.
| yellowapple wrote:
| It's weird that these books got pulled from circulation in the
| first place; the offensiveness is relatively mild (especially for
| the time), and quite a few of these have historical and literary
| significance (including the very first children's book published
| under the "Dr. Seuss" pen name).
|
| eBay deciding unilaterally that people can't buy or sell already-
| printed copies is just icing on the weirdness cake. This is the
| same website where searching for "minstrel" or "mammy" turns up a
| veritable smorgasbord of racist caricatures, and yet some Dr.
| Seuss books cross the line for them?
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > eBay deciding unilaterally that people can't buy or sell
| already-printed copies
|
| eBay isn't deciding that, it is deciding unilaterally that it
| will not _participate_ in the buying or selling of those items.
|
| eBay probably has no interest and in any case has no power to
| make decisions about what can be bought and sold, only about
| what it will participate as a facilitator of buying and
| selling.
| dTal wrote:
| Good point! Well I guess I'll just go and buy my copy at the
| other well known online auction site... what was it called
| again?
|
| /s
|
| eBay has a natural monopoly due to the nature of auctions. If
| they decide not to list something, it becomes at the very
| least much harder to trade.
| jfengel wrote:
| I agree with you that it's a little weird that eBay has decided
| to draw the line there, but you might give a second thought to
| what constitutes "relatively mild offensiveness".
|
| These racist caricatures have a long and ugly history, and they
| persist. They may seem mild to you, but to people who have to
| deal with racist caricatures every day of their lives, it's
| unpleasant. Not just having to explain to your children why
| they've been presented like that in this book targeted to them,
| but why all of the other children they know will have been
| exposed to the same images.
|
| I don't think you intended to diminish that in your post, but I
| think it's worth taking note when you tell other people that
| they shouldn't be offended by something when you don't
| experience it.
|
| Take a look at the images, and you can see why the publishers
| felt that they were better off without them. As for why eBay
| decided to glom onto that... that I can't say.
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| This HN topic in two acts.
|
| [ACT1] Comment here: "What bothers me is the speed with which
| this process ... happens. We are not discussing things
| anymore."
|
| [ACT2] jfengel discusses racism. Gets repeatedly downvoted.
| dTal wrote:
| https://images.indianexpress.com/2021/03/dr-seuss.jpg
|
| Maybe I'm old fashioned but all I see is a smiling boy, in
| traditional Chinese dress, eating what appears to be rice out
| of a bowl with chopsticks. Are there actually Chinese people
| who find this offensive? Why?
| offby37years wrote:
| No. The Chinese have a term for these privileged westerners
| who exhibit faux-outrage: Sheng Mu Biao , Sheng Mu Biao
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baizuo
| hntrader wrote:
| As someone with an Asian background, it's not offensive at
| all, and I can't think of an Asian person who would find it
| offensive.
|
| This is just cancel culture playing out. Weak, risk-averse
| executives cowardly bending the knee to a small group of
| malicious, narcissistic activists.
|
| This reminds me of the "What is the problem with Apu?"
| fiasco. No Indian I knew cared, but a small number of
| sociopathic activists forced the hands of the cowards in
| charge.
| jfengel wrote:
| None of the white people are presented in exaggerated,
| outdated costumes. It exaggerates the slanted eyes, the
| queue, and (in some editions) the bright yellow color.
|
| Compare it to some of the deliberately-racist cartoons that
| Giesel drew during World War II:
|
| https://reimaginingmigration.org/dr-seuss-political-
| cartoons...
|
| This wasn't intended to offend, and I don't know how many
| people were offended by it. But if I were the publisher the
| similarities would distress me.
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