[HN Gopher] In the U.S., more immigrants with children are still...
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In the U.S., more immigrants with children are still in their first
marriage
Author : aminozuur
Score : 36 points
Date : 2021-03-03 19:52 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (ifstudies.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (ifstudies.org)
| firebaze wrote:
| They are not. They are normal. Would-be opinion-forming bullshit
| articles are supporting the bad guys, by delivering easy to
| refute narratives which ultimately support immigrant haters. I'm
| so sick of this good/bad scheme predisposed to paint immigrants
| bad.
|
| Edit: from my perspective a new strategy of far-right idiots is
| to propagate "positive immigrant narratives" which then prove
| wrong, just because they have been exaggerated from the start.
| Cheap psychological trick, still effective.
| bee_rider wrote:
| The IFS _does_ appear to be a right wing group. That said --
| have you noticed this trend elsewhere?
|
| From my not-terribly-informed position, it looks more to me
| like this is part of the ongoing power struggle in the
| conservative movement. They recently had fairly poor election
| results, and this looks more to me like an attempt by this
| group to reverse their looming demographic challenges by at
| least trying to reach out to immigrant groups.
| firebaze wrote:
| If you downvote, please post an opinion and offer your opinion
| to be down- or upvoted!
| whatshisface wrote:
| Well, if the article has statistics saying "yes," I'm not
| sure how far one could go on a comment that only has words
| saying "no."
| jcims wrote:
| I didn't vote on your comment because I couldn't really parse
| what you were saying. So the IFS makes a poorly supported
| argument for immagrant family stability, is the idea that
| it's giving the anti-immigrant community a leverage point to
| turn it into a crater?
|
| edit: I figured there had to be a term for this, but couldn't
| find one. 'Grass Man' is proposed here -
| http://www.michaeldello.com/straw-man-steel-man-grass-man/
| firebaze wrote:
| I _despise_ the idea of differentiating between immigrants
| and natives. All people are equal.
|
| We all should be measured by equal terms. Quite often there
| are articles painting immigrants as innately good, which - to
| me - is the same racism as painting immigrants as bad.
| jacob2484 wrote:
| If I immigrate to Switzerland or Singapore, I should not
| have all the rights that the citizens have, such as right
| to vote or social programs which would stress their system.
| Not until enough time passes and I qualify to be a citizen.
|
| Otherwise would be unfair to the natives.
| foogazi wrote:
| > Otherwise would be unfair to the natives.
|
| Says who ? These arbitrary rules were made up by someone,
| and are always subject to change.
|
| Life's not fair
| tw04 wrote:
| >I despise the idea of differentiating between immigrants
| and natives. All people are equal.
|
| You seem to be confusing the words equal and same. Nothing
| in the article says immigrants aren't equal, it says their
| family dynamics are DIFFERENT. With statistics to back it
| up. It's no different than me saying that statistically:
| the average black family from alabama living in zip code
| 35033 consumes a different variety of food than the average
| hispanic family from south dakota living in zip code 57620.
|
| Nothing about that says they aren't EQUAL, but they are
| absolutely DIFFERENT.
|
| Calling that "racism" is a pretty blatant abuse of the
| term.
| foogazi wrote:
| Immigrant here - I don't see ANY difference between myself,
| Americans, Indians, Russians or Chinese I have met while
| working here - at the end of the day we are all people
| ahupp wrote:
| Your comment is written as if immigrants are a homogeneous
| group, all identical to each other. That seems like a far
| more pernicious view than suggesting that they might differ
| (in positive ways, no less!) from natives.
| andreygrehov wrote:
| I'm an immigrant. Culturally, we are all different.
| dbatten wrote:
| Surely "all people are equal" does not mean "we should
| never do sociological research on people" or "any
| sociological research that finds statistical differences in
| how different groups of people behave is necessarily wrong
| and evil."
| lurquer wrote:
| There doesn't appear to be any comparison of ages between
| immigrants and natives. The age rage is "between 18 and 64".
|
| That's a big range.
|
| Too big.
|
| How do I know -- from the stats given -- if the disparity is
| simply a matter of age?
|
| If the native average age is 45 while the immigrant average age
| is 35, the 'result' may simply be a matter of the natives having
| had more time to get divorced.
|
| Something is screwy. I smell an agenda.
| sebmellen wrote:
| Could it be that this actually tracks more with wealth than being
| an immigrant? Looking at the numbers in the study, those richer
| immigrant groups like Indians seem to skew the data away from
| poorer groups like South Americans.
| golemiprague wrote:
| I don't think immigration or wealth is the factor here but
| rather traditional values. An immigrant from Europe will have
| probably the same marriage rate as a non immigrant American
| while an Orthodox Jew will have higher stable marriage rate
| even though they are non immigrants and not particularly rich.
| jacob2484 wrote:
| Let's not forget how the divorce system in the US HEAVILY favors
| women - perhaps more men would marry if the consequences of a bad
| marriage weren't so devastating.
| foobarbaz33 wrote:
| I agree. I like the idea of marriage. But in the US 1 party is
| given financial incentive to divorce and make the other person
| their indentured servant for life. That incentive may be a
| factor in the high divorce rate.
| smegger001 wrote:
| yeah the potential of lossing access to children, your home,
| car, half of your possessions, and large part of your social
| network is not something to take lightly. then trying to peice
| your life back together when your have to pay alimony and child
| support, before your other expenses is a lot to ask when the
| alternative is free internet porn.
| [deleted]
| amir734jj wrote:
| I'm not sure if "stable" is the correct word here.
|
| Story time. I'm 27, immigrant living in the U.S. for the past 12+
| years. We moved here from Iran when I was in highschool and now
| I'm a PhD student in computer science. I have been in the school
| since we moved in here. I have a brother and a sister who are 12
| and 15 years older than me. They were not able to move here
| because they were over 21 years old. I work 2 jobs (senior
| software engineer and teaching at university), own a house and
| support my family in Iran. Iranian currency has been devalued by
| x20 times at least since we moved in so economy is messed up over
| there. I wouldn't call it a stable life. It's more like a
| survival.
|
| I'm not alone. I see international students (or couples) who work
| extremely hard to be able to get a job after graduation.
| Immigration is rewarding but not an easy path.
|
| I haven't been able to go to back to Iran and visit my friends
| and family members but I am scared being detained and used for
| the purpose of "hostage diplomacy" by the Iranian government.
| juskrey wrote:
| Immigration is a tough survival filter for relationships.
| filoleg wrote:
| Yep, but it is a very just filter, i think, because it seems to
| kill off relationships that were already cracked and being held
| together by just pure will.
|
| Had that happen with my parents. We immigrated when I was a
| teen, and just 4 years later my parents divorced. To people on
| the outside it seemed completely out of nowhere. But growing up
| with them, it was painfully obvious (in retrospect) that they
| kept it all together not by trying to actually solve problems
| or work things out, but by holding it all together just on pure
| will. It could've been held forever if everything else was
| stable, but immigration process and the experience of adapting
| to a new country is anything but stable.
|
| While it sounds bad, I don't think of it as a tragic
| experience, and I don't wish that it had never happened. I am
| not happy that it happened either, but it was bound to
| eventually happen one way or another. Either that or one (or
| both of them) would just settle with being unhappy and
| miserable until the last days, being constantly anxious that
| one day that bridge held by duct tape would collapse.
| yalogin wrote:
| Isn't this directly related to the divorce rates in their
| respective countries of origin? IMO, this plays a stronger role
| in the divorce rates than anything else. One number I would love
| to see if how the subsequent generations of the immigrants do,
| both divorce rates and financially.
| andrewmcwatters wrote:
| The amount of comments espousing the idea that stable marriages
| can't be happy is off-putting to me and what I see as a
| reflection of how Americans value marriage.
| dang wrote:
| That would be a non sequitur! This is a classic case of the
| contrarian dynamic: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=
| 0&prefix=true&sor....
|
| Your post, and the upvotes it's getting, are the second wave :)
| enjeyw wrote:
| How interesting! Would love to see come quantative research
| into Contrarian Oscillations.
| AmericanChopper wrote:
| Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never
| does any good, and it makes boring reading.
| beisner wrote:
| ... it's dang.
| AmericanChopper wrote:
| I know who it is. I just think it's funny that that
| particular guideline is so poorly written that even Dang
| violates it occasionally.
| jacobolus wrote:
| > _espousing the idea that stable marriages can 't be happy_
|
| I don't see anyone saying this. Instead the claim is: when
| divorce is a cultural taboo, people are more likely to stick in
| an unhappy or even abusive marriage. This claim seems pretty
| uncontroversial, but at any rate it is a positive claim (not
| normative) whose accuracy can be judged by empirical data.
| hwbehrens wrote:
| What makes it more surprising to me (as a participant in the
| counter-contrarian dynamic that dang highlighted) is that among
| the many factors that correlate with reductions in divorce
| rate, they must surely be over-represented in the HN
| demographics: higher educations, greater incomes, later
| marriages, and more technical professions, for example.
|
| HN commenters (or the stereotype thereof) who are married would
| actually be more likely to be in stable marriages, and thus
| able to weigh first-hand the relative likelihood of a
| stable/happy correlation.
| darth_avocado wrote:
| Am I the only one overtly bothered by the fact that in the chart,
| 60% is literally half of 72%?!!
| paxys wrote:
| This isn't necessarily something to celebrate. "Not divorced"
| doesn't automatically mean stable. I'm Indian, and know so many
| couples (mainly older) who have been locked in loveless and
| joyless marriages for decades. Divorce is such a taboo subject in
| the community that it isn't something you can even consider. If
| you peel back the curtain you will see a shocking amount of
| infidelity, emotional/mental/physical abuse, marital rape and
| more, not exactly stuff I would associate with "stable"
| marriages.
| Spellman wrote:
| Of course, the instant caveat is that defining Stable = In First
| Marriage doesn't mean they are necessarily "happy."
|
| Huge cultural stigmas and structures that reinforce stability
| family structures is likely at play. Similar to how other stats
| show Religious folks have a lower rate of divorce. Partially
| because of the forces encouraging to not divorce, both positively
| with huge support networks to keep couples together, and
| negatively with implicit shame for those who break up. And also
| partially that many who divorce may also leave said faith (eg
| self-selection Religiosity). This second component of course
| doesn't apply to immigrants.
|
| Plus, a "no divorce" policy can also create systems where
| spousal/domestic abuse can run rampant and no recourse to escape.
| So it's not always the best metric to optimize for.
| dharmach wrote:
| Both ends will have extremes. Too much calculations, too much
| expectations, keep hunting for better deals even after
| marriage, no willingness to compromise, having all eggs in
| spouse relationship basket and expecting her/him to play all
| roles, selfishness for own happiness but disregard for
| children's life, trivial reasons leading to breakup..
|
| Plus culture where freedom, independence and success are more
| valued than institute of marriage, interdependence and family
| life.
| maerF0x0 wrote:
| > happy
|
| Is happiness the most important goal? Could one have other aims
| in life beyond the pursuit of happiness?
| saiya-jin wrote:
| Yes, if you are able to (many can't for whatever reason, ie
| messed up childhood). And yes of course, although those aims
| usually also bring some sort of happiness, at least they do
| ie for me
| djrogers wrote:
| What would be the purpose of pursuing something that did not
| ultimately bring you joy?
| InvertedRhodium wrote:
| Stability and safety are both values that a lot of people
| would put before joy. But fundamentally we're approaching
| the penultimate "What is the meaning of life?" question -
| to which everyone has to find their own answers. I suspect
| hedonists would be inclined to agree with you.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Not surprised, given the source:
|
| https://sourcewatch.org/index.php/Institute_for_Family_Studi...
| sebmellen wrote:
| Rather embarrassing to see such a piece of propaganda posted
| on HN :/
| dang wrote:
| On HN we consider article quality more than site quality
| [1]. This doesn't seem like a bad article to me. It's an
| interesting finding, not one that's been much discussed,
| and certainly possible to have a curious conversation
| about.
|
| Arguably the article title is slightly misleading, because
| "stable family" can mean many things and has strong
| emotional associations. So I've changed the title to
| representative language from the article body [2], which is
| more precise.
|
| [1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=fal
| se&so...
|
| [2] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=tru
| e&que...
| sebmellen wrote:
| Yes, agreed, I definitely don't think it should be
| censored. In fact, the article's conclusions are
| interesting, but it is my opinion that it is _written_ in
| a somewhat deceptive manner.
|
| Thank you for changing the submission title.
| DiggyJohnson wrote:
| Neutral (if it was possible) observer here...well handled
| Dang.
| addicted wrote:
| What about research that shows religious people are also
| happier than non religious people?
| willcipriano wrote:
| In addition to the above point many religious organizations
| offer services like counseling to couples who are struggling
| as well as things like play groups so parents can manage a
| date night every once in a while. If you are like me and not
| religious and have little actual exposure to this sort of
| thing you may want to spend some time visiting (post Covid)
| some churches to see what goes on there, its about 50%
| religion, 50% general life advice and community outreach.
| It's not surprising to me that a marriage with that support
| system is less likely to fail than one without.
| dash2 wrote:
| My favourite book of the past few years, Eric Kaufmann's "Shall
| the religious inherit the earth", points out that some religious
| minorities, often quite extreme ones, are much better at having
| children, and are likely to spread at the expense of the
| mainstream. This cultural difference in family stability reminds
| me of that.
|
| I would like to believe that the US and Europe can pick up
| whatever enables poor immigrant families to maintain stable
| families and viable reproductive structures - without buying into
| the more extreme aspects of some pro-natalist religious cultures.
| edgyquant wrote:
| While this is true, the children of these families tend to move
| away from extremism (at least in the west) and the same rate as
| every one else.
| dash2 wrote:
| Yes, but those children that move away also move towards
| Western norms of sub-replacement fertility; while the
| children that don't, don't.
|
| I wouldn't say the best way to think about this is "these
| crazies are baby-making machines!" (Strawmanning your
| argument a little there.) There is some craziness in e.g.
| Quiverfull protestantism or Ultra-Orthodox Judaism, sure.
| Nevertheless, if culture X is set to survive into the future
| on current trends, and culture Y is not, then maybe culture X
| isn't completely stupid.
| filoleg wrote:
| I cannot find the citation anymore, but I remember reading
| about an interesting phenomenon related to this. Since I
| cannot find the source now, please call me out if it is
| actually wrong, but it seems to make sense and rings true to
| my personal anecdotal experiences.
|
| Basically, the hypothesis is that immigrant families
| themselves indeed move away from extremism. But their
| children born in the new country tend to overcorrect and try
| to "discover the roots" by swinging harder in the opposite
| (extremism) direction. One generation down from the one that
| became less extremist, basically.
|
| I might be confusing some details given how long ago I had
| read it (it might be not the children of the immigrant
| family, but children of their children, for example), but
| that's the gist, and I saw it happening myself more than
| once.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| It depends how cultish and restrictive the parents are. I
| know of some cults that even handicap their kids' English
| skills and keep them mingling amongst their own so that they
| don't really have any outside resources. Once they're
| economically dependent on their tribe, it's much harder for
| them to break out.
| maerF0x0 wrote:
| > are much better at having children,
|
| Also see Idiocracy ( https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/ )
| licnep wrote:
| Seems like there are a lot of confounding factors here.
|
| For many people marriage is a prerequisite to immigrate to the us
| or bring their family over, and people risk deportation if they
| divorce. So saying that immigrant families are more stable can be
| akin to saying that H1B workers are more loyal to their company.
| m463 wrote:
| I also imagine living in a foreign country you spend a
| disproportionate amount of time just doing basic things, let
| alone growing a social circle from zero, let alone getting out
| and dating other people.
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