[HN Gopher] Almost 40% of U.S. Consumers Trust Online Reviews Le...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Almost 40% of U.S. Consumers Trust Online Reviews Less Than They
       Did 5 Years Ago
        
       Author : sharkweek
       Score  : 179 points
       Date   : 2021-03-02 17:24 UTC (5 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.reviews.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.reviews.com)
        
       | williesleg wrote:
       | Nothing is UL listed anymore. AI bots and Chinese and Indian
       | cheap labor reviews are everywhere. Same with postings, even to
       | hacker news. Hard to know what's human and what's not anymore.
        
       | mchusma wrote:
       | This is great news!
        
       | OhSoHumble wrote:
       | I recently bought some sheets. Actually sorting through the
       | sheets on Amazon was a hassle because 90% of the reviews would be
       | obviously fake "best sheets I've ever slept on - 5 stars" and the
       | remaining 10% would be 1-3 star reviews that would be photographs
       | of poor fabric or tears in the arriving product.
       | 
       | It is almost impossible to buy quality goods online and I'm
       | afraid that is just going to get worse.
        
         | 99_00 wrote:
         | I'm shifting to brick and mortar or online retailers that I
         | feel vet their sellers like Costco.
        
         | my_usernam3 wrote:
         | I had the same exact issue. So I went to target and felt the
         | material i would be sleeping on and have been super happy ever
         | since.
        
         | niklasd wrote:
         | What is also strange is when comparing "different" offerings
         | they sometime turn out to be exactly the same product, just
         | with a slightly different picture/text and a (sometimes
         | substantial) price difference.
         | 
         | For products like iPhone cases it feels like there is one
         | factory in China which produces a few different models, which
         | lead to the 200 offerings you'll see when searching for one at
         | Amazon.
        
           | bluGill wrote:
           | Making something in a factory is skill and there are scale
           | factors. You can buy a lawn mower from dozens of different
           | companies, but the vast majority are made in one factory. If
           | you want to sell lawnmowers you just need to order some
           | quantity (I'm guessing 1000) and they will paint their
           | standard mower with your colors and got to word and
           | substitute your name in the manual. Easy enough for them to
           | do and they don't need to worry about marketing at all.
           | 
           | Nearly all store brands are the same way. A lot of other
           | brand name products are also the same. That iPhone case
           | factory will probably make any patter you want.
           | 
           | Don't assume though that store bands are the same quality.
           | There are some choices. They can use thicker metal in lawn
           | mowers for quality. They can use source plastics of different
           | qualities for the iphone cases. However the price isn't that
           | much different and so sometimes the expensive products are
           | the lowest quality.
        
           | jxramos wrote:
           | this, it's product representation dilution. When things go
           | sour a new listing is made with a different name, edited
           | photos, and same product. Amazon is so polluted with noise
           | like this we've started to shift our business elsewhere.
        
         | akvadrako wrote:
         | It's not impossible to buy quality goods online, but it is on
         | Amazon.
        
       | andrewclunn wrote:
       | Is this an appropriate thread to trash talk the garbage up / down
       | vote system that is hacker news karma?
        
       | vpmpaul wrote:
       | In other news 60% of people don't pay attention to anything other
       | than what is parroted to them by other "people"
        
       | gallamine wrote:
       | A fun anecdote from my wife: 6 years ago she reviewed a nursing
       | bra on Amazon. Gave it five stars. Fast forward to now and she
       | when pulls up her review history that same review (with the exact
       | text!) now appears on a consumer electronics device.
        
         | milesvp wrote:
         | Yup, it's a very common way to get a product with high sales
         | and ratings. You put up a low cost, high volume, high quality
         | item. Sell it cheap, then after you have enough 5 star reviews,
         | swap all the pictures and text with a new higher margin (maybe
         | lower quality item), completely unrelated item.
        
       | whalesalad wrote:
       | Would love to see a 'social score' come back a-la Klout, but not
       | Klout.
       | 
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klout
       | 
       | Instead of measuring how powerful or influential you are - it
       | could instead be used to prove your honesty, trustworthiness,
       | identity in some kind of anonymous way, etc...
        
         | paxys wrote:
         | Variants of this have existed forever. Here's what will happen
         | - I spend years writing great reviews and building up a good
         | score. People trust me, I become famous in the community.
         | Brands start to vie for my attention. A shitty company comes
         | along and offers me $1 million in exchange for a good review.
         | What incentive do I have to turn it down?
        
       | umvi wrote:
       | I use niche (<2M subs) YouTube channels like ProjectFarm[0] to
       | decide between products these days. Huge YouTube channels are no
       | longer trustworthy as I've noticed they will shill for whatever
       | "opportunity" comes knocking (MatPat recently did an interview
       | with Dr. Fauci[1] on his The Game Theorists channel, and while I
       | didn't disagree with the content of the video, it raised some red
       | flags in my mind because it was obviously content that didn't fit
       | into the channel...)
       | 
       | [0] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2rzsm1Qi6N1X-wuOg_p0Ng
       | 
       | [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLIkZRmqgjI
        
         | jxramos wrote:
         | +1 for project farm, I've found his recommendations and putting
         | things to the test to be very accurate. Been pleased with the
         | buys I made off his recommendations.
         | 
         | Will Prowse is a real gem too
         | https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoj6RxIAQq8kmJme-5dnN0Q
        
       | BitwiseFool wrote:
       | I invite people to checkout BestBuy's online shop. Just about
       | every single item has a rating from 4.0 to 4.8 out of 5. I have
       | yet to see a single listing under 4 stars. There are of course,
       | unrated items, but can you honestly believe that virutally every
       | product they carry is nearly perfect? Who actually writes a 5
       | star review for a no-name brand of tape and cable ties?
       | 
       | When everything is perfect, nothing is, and I don't trust
       | BestBuy's review system at all. I can't help but think there is
       | some kind of false advertising law against fake reviews that
       | they're breaking.
        
         | rhino369 wrote:
         | This is a problem with nearly every online rating place. 4.0
         | means TOTAL GARBAGE and 5.0 means it didn't burn by house down.
         | Totally useless.
        
           | troydavis wrote:
           | This is so common that I considered creating a browser
           | extension to convert/normalize the the min and max values on
           | a page into a 5-star rating. When the lowest rating of items
           | on the page is 4.2, 4.2 would displayed as 1.
        
             | vpmpaul wrote:
             | That is actually a really cool idea. Probably a lot more
             | work than it sounds like.
        
           | briffle wrote:
           | I gave an honest review of some $30 bluetooth headphones. I
           | gave it a 3 star, and listed my complaints. The company
           | reached out to me, offered to send me 2 more, for free, of
           | their newer and better model, if I just adjusted my review to
           | all stars. That was when I stopped believing them.
        
         | vel0city wrote:
         | Lots of products have <4 stars on Best Buy's website. If you're
         | not seeing products with < 4 stars, you're just looking at
         | their featured items.
         | 
         | I also agree its hard to trust online reviews, but we don't
         | need to throw out falsehoods about how every product is 4+
         | stars.
         | 
         | https://www.bestbuy.com/site/ge-7-8-cu-ft-10-cycle-electric-...
         | 
         | https://www.bestbuy.com/site/whirlpool-7-4-cu-ft-36-cycle-el...
         | 
         | https://www.bestbuy.com/site/combo/washer-dryer-bundles/d40c...
         | 
         | https://www.bestbuy.com/site/hisense-32-class-h55-series-led...
         | 
         | https://www.bestbuy.com/site/furrion-49-class-led-outdoor-fu...
         | 
         | https://www.bestbuy.com/site/jam-been-there-wireless-on-ear-...
         | 
         | https://www.bestbuy.com/site/tcl-mtro-series-mtro200btbl-wir...
         | 
         | https://www.bestbuy.com/site/sennheiser-ie-80-s-bt-wireless-...
         | 
         | https://www.bestbuy.com/site/supersonic-7-tablet-8gb-black/6...
         | 
         | https://www.bestbuy.com/site/azpen-10-touch-screen-tablet-an...
         | 
         | To be honest though, if you were a retailer trying to push the
         | idea that almost any product you sell if cool tech, wouldn't
         | you probably remove most SKUs that are genuinely 2-star
         | products?
        
         | jwagenet wrote:
         | I think the reality is not just that Best Buy is (maybe)
         | creating fake reviews or removing bad ones, but that most
         | reviewers only rate with 1 star or 5 stars. The majority of
         | reviews I find are in one of those two buckets, and only a
         | handful of nuanced reviews fall in 2-4, effectively making the
         | rating of a non controversial product that does what it's
         | supposed to - but has lemons - from 4 (meh) to 5 (works as
         | expected).
        
           | bombcar wrote:
           | This is why I would support a law that says if you're selling
           | a product and have reviews you must also report how many
           | you've sold over the last year, and how many returns (or
           | maybe a percentage or something).
           | 
           | That would be a much more useful metric.
        
             | jfim wrote:
             | It would be gamed anyway, you'd just get sellers saying
             | "we'll give you twenty dollars for not returning the item."
        
         | boatsie wrote:
         | Almost all online stores seem to be like this. Why would Dell
         | or Lenovo show you products that had anything less than 3.5
         | stars? There's a huge conflict of interest in showing reviews
         | of their own products. BestBuy has to sell the inventory they
         | carry, so sure, they will tell you everything is 4-5 stars.
         | Amazon is actually slightly better because they profit no
         | matter which headphones you buy, but then it's the sellers that
         | are gaming the system. In theory it should be easier to detect.
        
         | undefined1 wrote:
         | and Doordash. how is everything >4? are we really to believe
         | that McDonalds has a rating of 4.6 out of 5?
         | 
         | it makes the system completely useless.
        
           | ssharp wrote:
           | If you order McDonalds, you probably know what McDonalds
           | should taste like. If it meets 100% of your expectations, why
           | would you rate it lower?
           | 
           | Similarly, if I get a meal from Michelin Star rated
           | restaurant and it fails to meet my high expectations, should
           | it get a better rating than McDonald's just because the
           | restaurants meal was still likely much better than McDonald's
           | even if it failed to meet expectations?
        
             | BitwiseFool wrote:
             | In practical terms it dilutes the value of 4 and 5 star
             | reviews for other restaurants. There's some cognitive
             | dissonance involved when McDonald's gets a 4.6/5 and a mom
             | and pop haute-cuisine restaurant gets a 4.6/5 as well.
             | These are two very different dining experiences but they
             | are being judged using the same system and feels
             | inaccurate.
        
               | spaetzleesser wrote:
               | For what McDonalds is they probably deliver a 5 star
               | review the way their customers see it. You probably have
               | to divide restaurants into different categories and
               | compare within them. I beat a lot of people will rate
               | MCDonalds higher than haute cuisine restaurants even in
               | direct comparison. There is no absolute rating for
               | restaurants.
        
               | neltnerb wrote:
               | If in direct comparison they rate McDonald's higher, then
               | that's fine... McDonald's is a huge business, they
               | obviously have people who like them.
               | 
               | But it should be a direct comparison, I certainly think
               | KFC is far superior to most haute cuisine fried chicken.
        
             | neltnerb wrote:
             | From a utility standpoint, I mean, yeah. You should
             | definitely rate McDonalds lower than a restaurant with food
             | you liked better, if people want to search for "how was the
             | food" divided by "cost of the food" that's obviously a
             | sliding scale that depends on the person. Maybe it should
             | be something you can sort by, but I don't see how you could
             | possibly reconcile ratings from different people if they
             | _all_ give five stars for any restaurant that meets their
             | expectations.
        
           | conception wrote:
           | This I think stems from a different issue. Doordash has a
           | very easy, one second review they ask from everyone. And I
           | think 99.999% of folks think "oh yeah that was fine, 4 stars"
           | or "it was pretty good, five stars." Do people get what they
           | expected from that McDonald's? Was it cheap, fast and
           | nostalgic? 5 stars.
           | 
           | The people doing these reviews are not good critics, or
           | critical with any sort of depth.
           | 
           | They are the sort of folks that get doordash to bring them
           | McDonald's.
        
             | BitwiseFool wrote:
             | This reminds of me leaving reviews on Uber or Lyft. A
             | perfectly fine ride is a 5/5 because anything less than
             | that hurts the driver. In reality I just need a binary
             | "Satisfactory? Y/N" and then maybe an optional extended
             | rating for leaving feedback if anything was out of the
             | ordinary, good or bad.
        
             | undefined1 wrote:
             | good points. maybe that makes all the difference between
             | Doordash compared to Google/Yelp, where McDonalds is more
             | along the lines of 1 or 2 out of 5.
             | 
             | it means Doordash ratings are useless for discovery, but if
             | you already know the restaurant, it might have utility in
             | terms of delivery.
        
             | egypturnash wrote:
             | There is also unevenly distributed cultural knowledge:
             | anything less than five stars starts causing hassle for the
             | driver. I hate this inflation but I also wanna make sure
             | the person who gave me competent service that I would
             | _realistically_ mark as three stars - not bad, not great,
             | job done exactly as specified and I 'm perfectly happy with
             | that - is going to get five.
             | 
             | (hassle varies: offered fewer/worse-paying jobs is a good
             | start)
        
               | neltnerb wrote:
               | When I moved to California for a while I once made the
               | mistake of describing my food at a restaurant with "fine,
               | thanks" when the server asked how it was.
               | 
               | Apparently this translates very differently in the
               | culture of the Bay Area where it means something like "I
               | am very upset" whereas in Boston I think this roughly
               | would be read as "I am satisfied, but don't really feel
               | like chatting."
        
               | throwawayboise wrote:
               | Randomly reminded me of George Carlin's bit on that.
               | 
               |  _It's like "fine." Another weak word.
               | 
               | "How are you?"
               | 
               | "Fine."
               | 
               | Bullshit! Nobody's fine. Hair is fine.
               | 
               | "How's your hair?"
               | 
               | "Fine."
               | 
               | That makes a lot more sense to me._
        
               | fuzxi wrote:
               | "Good" is a California "fine", and "fine" is a California
               | "pox be upon you".
        
               | bluGill wrote:
               | I've given up on leaving reviews. For 3 stars to be
               | average, you need to actually give average reviews to
               | some things, thus I rate almost everything as 3 stars
               | which results in the "what went wrong", "Nothing, you
               | were average, just like everyone else". I got sick of
               | that exchange and gave up. Doing better than average is
               | almost impossible in my book because almost everyone is
               | doing their best. Sometimes someone will mess up and get
               | a 1, but not often, and not bad enough that they make
               | enough of a difference as to raise everyone else to 5.
               | 
               | Also, I just don't buy enough of most things to honestly
               | know. Is Brand X thing better than Brand Y - how should I
               | know? I don't have the time to spend a week trying each
               | item to give a fair review. I happened to choose Brand X,
               | and it is fine but it might really be far worse than
               | Brand Y if only I had tried the other in stead.
        
           | throwaway0a5e wrote:
           | They can both be 5/5 in terms of delivering the product you
           | expect them to deliver.
        
           | notahacker wrote:
           | Isn't this just the logical consequence of the "less than 5
           | stars means you want them _punished_ " mentality popularised
           | by Uber?
        
             | walshemj wrote:
             | And I suspect the use of grades in US Highschools where
             | anything that isnt an A is considered a failure is an
             | element why every ones gives a 4 or 5
        
             | ghaff wrote:
             | It was popularized at least as far back as eBay (albeit as
             | a positive/neutral/negative scale). "Seller shipped me an
             | empty box but at least there wasn't dynamite in it.
             | A+++++++ seller."
             | 
             | I do think restaurant and product ratings are a bit
             | different. With Uber, eBay, etc., a lot of people recognize
             | that any less than perfect rating can lead to a personal
             | impact on someone even if a small number of people leave a
             | negative.
             | 
             | That said, many will leave good marks on satisfaction
             | surveys because a middling mark may lead to someone
             | reaching out to find out what the problem was and that can
             | just be more hassle than it's worth.
        
               | notahacker wrote:
               | Arguably the punishment side existed before the web then
               | in US tipping etiquette.
               | 
               | But at least the eBay 'approve' asks you whether the
               | vendor was adequate or not, not to give them the maximum
               | on an entirely artificial multiplier scale unless you
               | think they should face consequences.
        
               | ghaff wrote:
               | >Arguably the punishment side existed before the web then
               | in US tipping etiquette.
               | 
               | True. In general, even if service is bad for whatever
               | reason, most people would say you should leave a tip even
               | if a less generous one than you normally would.
               | 
               | I haven't left a rating on eBay for a long time and don't
               | use it much. But for many situations there's something to
               | be said for thumbs up/down or an up/neutral/down rating
               | when you're not really trying to fine tune.
        
           | RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote:
           | > are we really to believe that McDonalds has a rating of 4.6
           | out of 5?
           | 
           | Why shouldn't it? You know what you are getting with
           | McDonalds. For the price point they sell at, it is pretty
           | good food. They are consistent. And they do a really good job
           | with food safety, probably better than a lot of more highly
           | rated restaurants (when was the last time you heard about an
           | outbreak of a food borne illness at McDonalds)?
        
             | ghaff wrote:
             | I very rarely eat at McDonalds because I don't like them
             | for the most part. But, if I did, and I was promptly served
             | what I ordered, why would I ding them because their burger
             | isn't up to the standards of the (costlier) burger joint
             | down the street or even Shake Shack.
        
         | tenebrisalietum wrote:
         | Even if you didn't feel the reviews were gamed--why would
         | BestBuy leave bad reviews on its site--it would basically be
         | admitting they sell bad products. Ideally maybe they are
         | removing products that get continuous bad reviews before you
         | see them, but generally reviews can't come from the same place
         | you buy items and be trustworthy.
        
           | Judgmentality wrote:
           | > why would BestBuy leave bad reviews on its site
           | 
           | Because any website that doesn't do this I immediately assume
           | is untrustworthy and I will choose to buy nothing from them
           | at all.
        
             | [deleted]
        
             | neltnerb wrote:
             | How would someone know this when visiting them for an
             | occasional purchase? You might easily assume that the lower
             | rated items rapidly stop being carried, that the items that
             | are carried are curated to have a real bias towards higher
             | ratings, or merely that the lower rated items are on a
             | different page of results.
             | 
             | Which isn't to say I trust Best Buy's customer reviews, I
             | definitely don't. I probably trust Amazon's more simply by
             | sheer quantity combined with fakespot.com to sanity check
             | the reviews.
             | 
             | But I don't think a website having weird average scores is
             | very suspicious, especially when they have small numbers of
             | reviews. If many items are totally unreviewed and others
             | have only a few dozen reviews, the results are essentially
             | noise right? That's why I would trust Best Buy reviews
             | less.
        
           | BitwiseFool wrote:
           | I can understand if a company uses truly bad reviews as an
           | indicator that they should stop carrying the product. That
           | makes sense, and you'd have survivorship bias from that.
           | However, the problem I see with BestBuy's approach is that
           | even average reviews are being diluted by a deluge of 5 star
           | reviews. _Decent_ products should be getting 3 out of 5 stars
           | and only the truly exceptional ones should be getting the
           | perfect 5 /5.
           | 
           | I sense the problem is partly due to the shortcomings of the
           | X/5 rating system.
        
         | dawnerd wrote:
         | To answer your question about tape and cable ties, BestBuy will
         | offer rewards points for writing reviews and sometimes offers
         | bonus points for certain products.
         | 
         | Im sure they're also doing some review cleaning like Amazon
         | does where if the review is negative they will moderate it more
         | aggressively. After all, badly rated products hurt the entire
         | storefront so it is in their best interest to keep "bad"
         | products off.
         | 
         | But that said I still will trust BestBuy over Amazon. I know
         | items from BestBuy are not being co-mingled with potential
         | knockoffs and returns are pretty easy for items that are
         | terrible.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | marcosdumay wrote:
         | In theory, they could actively remove bad items from the
         | catalog, thus not having any lower than 4.0.
         | 
         | Yeah, I'm aware that is not what is happening there, but you
         | seeing no item lower than 4.0 is not a certain and general sign
         | of fraud.
        
         | akramer wrote:
         | I spend entirely too much money at Best Buy, and I've only
         | written 5 star reviews for products I like. The bad products
         | get immediately returned for a full refund - one of the
         | advantages of buying from a big brick and mortar store. I never
         | think about products I returned, I would prefer not to unless
         | I'm given some incentive to write a bad review. Now, if I were
         | stuck with the item, I'd probably trash it online in their
         | review section.
        
           | vel0city wrote:
           | Same kind of experience here. On top of that, I'm usually a
           | pretty picky purchaser who does a decent bit of market
           | research ahead of time. So I'm probably more likely to only
           | buy that good electronic item from a shop like Best Buy that
           | I've got a high likelihood of giving a 4-5 star review.
        
           | spaetzleesser wrote:
           | I guess a useful metric would be if they posted return rates,
           | warranty cases and so on.
        
             | aSockPuppeteer wrote:
             | This is one of the bonuses of a brick and mortar store if
             | you can get a commissioned associate to tell you.
             | 
             | Ex: I'm not going to say phonefriend makes a bad phone but
             | they have the highest return rate and people will buy a
             | much more expensive Panasonic when they leave for a second
             | time.
        
       | dhdhhdd wrote:
       | Maybe there should be a "return rate"% per product? :-)
        
         | kardos wrote:
         | That would give competitors an incentive to buy&return said
         | product to drive up the return rate
        
       | kull wrote:
       | Reviews and rankings are broken across the industries. For
       | products I usually start my journey at NYT Wirecutter
       | https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/.
       | 
       | I was also recently looking for a place at Apartments.com, as I
       | learned all places get 5 star ranking to start, and it's of
       | course not clear at all in the UX. I think at the moment google
       | maps does pretty good job with rankings.
        
         | mumblemumble wrote:
         | I'm finding Wirecutter to be less-than-useful, though. There's
         | the question marks around their funding model, but the deeper
         | problem is their "the best X" format. It requires setting up a
         | very specific rubric that tends to favor Cadillac models, and
         | leaves you with very little information to go on if you don't
         | have Cadillac needs.
         | 
         | Concrete example: I recently bought a new office chair. My
         | shopping process involved a lot of reading reviews and a lot of
         | sitting in actual chairs. The chair I ended up with, an Ikea
         | Langfjall, wasn't even considered by Wirecutter because it
         | lacks a lot of adjustability features. But there are a lot of
         | truly independent reviews (by which I mean, people talking on
         | Web forums or mentioning the chair they use on their personal
         | blogs) with the general consensus being, "This chair is
         | fantastic if it fits your body and you don't need/want all the
         | bells and whistles." A couple people even said they happily
         | switched to it _from_ an Aeron chair or similar. Which
         | describes me well enough, insofar as my office was supplying me
         | with Herman Miller love up until the pandemic hit.
         | 
         | So, all in all, I'm loving this chair. But, if I were
         | constrained to the Wirecutter "The best X" format, I wouldn't
         | include it, either, because its lack of adjustability means it
         | just won't be suitable for lots and lots and lots of people.
        
           | TRcontrarian wrote:
           | The funding model is extremely sus. I used to trust them but
           | your criticisms are right on, and their 'the best x' lists
           | have a curious tendency to prioritize brands that already
           | have high ad spend, rather than surface little known indie
           | choices.
        
             | mumblemumble wrote:
             | The possible saving grace of their funding model is that,
             | even if the manufacturer itself doesn't have an affiliate
             | program, they can probably still get some sort of affiliate
             | link through Amazon or Wal-Mart.
             | 
             | That said, there's just no amount of "not actually sketchy"
             | that will prevent this sort of revenue model from seeming
             | sketchy. Hard not to wonder if there are small Internet-
             | only companies that only sell direct-to-consumer who are
             | being shut out of independent reviews, or are feeling
             | pressure to give them a cut in order to avoid being cut
             | out.
        
         | JoshTko wrote:
         | I trust them a bit less these days. Seems that at least some of
         | their products are pay to play.
         | 
         | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25993512
        
       | ajdude wrote:
       | I recently canceled my Amazon prime subscription after having it
       | for almost a decade. The final straw was Amazon removing the
       | ability to comment on reviews. First, they remove the ability to
       | see the comments using the mobile site, then they remove them all
       | together saying that not as many people were utilizing it.
       | Unfortunately, those comments were a good litmus test to the
       | authenticity of a review - positive or negative - and gave
       | insight to the responsiveness of the seller. Some comments on
       | reviews even had instructions on how to solve the reviewer's
       | problem from experts in the field, it's all lost now.
        
         | choward wrote:
         | I agree completely. Now the only way to "reply" to a review is
         | to leave another review which adds something that shouldn't be
         | a review to the reviews making reviews even more worthless.
        
       | ericol wrote:
       | For me, the biggest issue I have is book ratings on Amazon.
       | 
       | Besides companies - and small time authors - paying for good
       | ratings, you have a similar amount of people that genuinely
       | bought the book, giving 1 start ratings because of whatever
       | quality of the book manufacture, be it physical or digital.
       | 
       | One of these two alone would not be difficult to manage, but
       | having to deal the two makes it almost unbearable to find out the
       | proper rating. We should start giving ratings ratings.
        
       | tehjoker wrote:
       | Companies undermining consumer reviews undermines the
       | justification for consumer capitalism. The idea is supposed to be
       | that a merchant sells a product that solves some problem real or
       | imagined at a given quality level. The consumer is supposed to be
       | able to make a fair evaluation of the quality and fitness of the
       | product and compare it with their budget and the item's price and
       | make a decision.
       | 
       | If companies systematically and intentionally destroy the
       | consumer's ability to do this, then why should their state
       | charters even be valid?
        
       | cronix wrote:
       | I wonder what the % would be if they asked a more general
       | question about just "information they read online." I'd bet it's
       | in the same ballpark. How many major news stories did you read in
       | the last several years that made large sensational claims, which
       | later turned out to be completely false?
        
       | jdlyga wrote:
       | An absolute ton of Amazon sellers give you gift cards for
       | positive reviews.
        
       | Blackthorn wrote:
       | You can't even search for information about products anymore. All
       | that shows up is affiliate spam pages that read like they were
       | generated from a ML algorithm.
        
         | ChrisLTD wrote:
         | This is what's going to kill the search engine ad market if the
         | algorithm designers aren't careful.
        
         | umvi wrote:
         | It's infuriating. I've noticed the auto-generated pages
         | especially when searching using patterns of the form "X vs. Y".
         | Half the links will just be auto-generated pages that show the
         | specs side by side along with some ML-tinged paragraphs above
         | to make it seem like the article was written by a human. (but
         | after reading a few sentences it obviously wasn't)
        
       | geocrasher wrote:
       | I don't understand the need to mistrust online reviews. They are
       | all 100% accurate and only published by people who are completely
       | authoritative in their segment. I find online reviews to be
       | objective and informed, while providing deep insight into the
       | inner workings of that which is being reviewed. They always
       | express an unbiased approach, and in my expert opinion, everyone
       | should trust online reviews. A++++++ would do business again. You
       | can trust me on this!
       | 
       | Yours Truly,
       | 
       | Prince Alyusi Islassis
       | 
       | Nigerian National Petroleum Company
        
       | nixarian wrote:
       | Honestly can you even trust something like an HN comment? How
       | many times do you see someone spouting corporate-favored opinions
       | as if they were truth? Sure, they could just be delusional
       | libertarians, but there are times when it stretches credulity.
        
       | mistyvales wrote:
       | I stopped caring about user "reviews" years ago. A good chunk of
       | them are paid and another good chunk are absurdly
       | emotional/hyperbolic, most of which the buyers don't even know
       | what the use case of a product is. Most people, especially on
       | Amazon, buy a product without even looking at every detail about
       | it.
       | 
       | I partially blame Amazon's product UI which is generally
       | terrible, but also people that don't do any research on a product
       | they buy.
        
       | roboman wrote:
       | I use the FakeSpot extension for the Brave browser. Works with
       | any Chrome based browser.
       | 
       | Uses AI to analyze reviews as well as the reviewers other
       | reviews. Then it gives a letter grade from A to F that rates the
       | trustworthiness of the reviews.
       | 
       | Maybe not perfect but very cool!
        
       | JoshTko wrote:
       | Just had an Amazon vendor offer me the full value of my purchase
       | (in Amazon gift cards) to change my review from 3 stars to four.
       | On one hand, it's great customer service, but on the other the
       | product is still really a three star product.
        
         | rsync wrote:
         | Well, did you ?
        
       | SeanFerree wrote:
       | I'm the same. I've slowly looked at reviews as something that can
       | be manipulated, so it's hard to trust
        
       | argiope wrote:
       | In Germany there's Stiftung Warentest [1] which offers reviews
       | without the apparent conflict of interest. They release paid
       | articles with review and comparison all kinds of items. I find
       | their offering a breeze of fresh air compared to the dumpster
       | fire that online reviews have become.
       | 
       | [1] https://www.test.de/unternehmen/ (German)
        
         | insickness wrote:
         | Who pays for the articles and who writes them? Is this like
         | Consumer Reports?
        
         | Tenoke wrote:
         | Can't you literally request for any negative review to be
         | removed in Germany as it 'hurts your business' by law? I live
         | here and that's the explanation I've been given when negative
         | reviews disappear .
        
           | argiope wrote:
           | As far as I know, businesses have no right in Germany to
           | remove lawful reviews, even if they are negative [1] and I
           | can confirm to see occasional bad reviews on their articles.
           | In any case I'm rather interested in finding trustful
           | positive reviews to guide my purchases and I value having a
           | neutral agency that offers that.
           | 
           | [1] https://www.anwalt.de/rechtstipps/negative-bewertungen-
           | im-in... (German)
        
       | meddlepal wrote:
       | I basically always go to Reddit now for reviews... even if
       | companies are astroturfing their as well, there's usually more
       | honesty in the reviews than whatever is on the vendor's site.
        
         | spoonjim wrote:
         | If you are going to Reddit then they are going to Reddit.
        
           | esturk wrote:
           | If they're going to Reddit, they'll have to put in a lot more
           | effort than just using bots to post fake reviews.
           | 
           | For some subreddits like r/BuyItForLife, it's not about the
           | number of upvotes. Some people just gravitates toward old
           | fashion goods.
        
             | spoonjim wrote:
             | Yes but one Reddit comment has a lot more weight right now
             | because of the ease of astroturfing, so it doesn't need to
             | be a Bot. Someone posts a Swiss Army knife and someone else
             | might say, "I love my Swiss Army Knife that my grandfather
             | left me. Oddly enough my aunt thought it was lost and
             | bought me a knockoff from Amazon and it actually works
             | better than my grandfather's knife."
             | 
             | Then someone replies saying "what was the brand?"
             | 
             | Then the person replies with a picture of the knife with
             | the lettering in tatters saying "QUINIPO" or one of those
             | Chinese brand names.
             | 
             | Boom
        
       | abecedarius wrote:
       | Somehow this problem will be solved -- not perfectly, but like
       | how spam went from a serious problem to an annoyance. The
       | question is, how? What's the solution going to look like? You'd
       | think Amazon would've focused more on it by now.
        
       | makecheck wrote:
       | I mean, when articles point out clear scams with _thousands_ of
       | 5-star reviews, how can a lowly honest person compete?
       | 
       | Similarly, what can you possibly do if someone with deep pockets
       | decides to trash your competing product's reviews?
       | 
       | Also, in my experience at least, the overwhelming majority of
       | real customers do not submit reviews _at all_. Thus I am
       | skeptical of any product that has miraculously convinced
       | thousands of people to contribute positive feedback.
       | 
       | At this point, every single review system acts more like a tool
       | to _help_ scam people, instead of helping them to avoid bad
       | products. It pushes bad products to the top of search, whereas
       | unrated products would be forced to scam a handful of people in
       | obscurity.
       | 
       | And the worst part is that I _still_ think twice about any low
       | review, even _knowing_ that in all likelihood the reviews I am
       | reading may not even be real! It really messes with your head.
        
       | djoldman wrote:
       | Amazon/walmart/google throwaway account people: whats the holdup
       | on fixing fake/fraudulent/spam reviews? Is it a tech problem or
       | do people not care to fix it (perceived small benefit to cost)?
       | 
       | If it's a tech problem, I'd be curious to know the details. Is it
       | more interesting than "too big of a firehose"?
        
         | yblu wrote:
         | Dealing with fake/fraudulent reviews is hard enough, this is
         | probably harder: manufacturers incentivizes real customers to
         | write good reviews & remove bad reviews. I recently bought a
         | few highly-rated gadgets from Amazon. One of them came with a
         | leaflet saying they would send $50 gift card (the product costs
         | $200) if I review and send them the screenshot. For another
         | product, after I posted a 3-star review, which was not at all
         | negative, I've been receiving a dozen or so emails from
         | different addresses with varying subjects/contents but all
         | asking me to remove that review in exchange for a gift card. I
         | could only imagine how much harder they would go after the
         | 1-star reviews...
        
       | spectramax wrote:
       | Checkout Tabelog, a Japanese version of Yelp. Anything over 3.5
       | is phenomenal. 4.0+? Rare. 4.5 is probably the best sushi place
       | in all of Tokyo. Anything over 2.0 is great. 1.5 is manageable
       | and 1 or below is bad.
       | 
       | We in the west just love so much excess. Everything is amazing or
       | everything just sucks. Bimodal distribution and extreme greed.
       | Most things in nature, society, etc are normally distributed and
       | our review system and the people are broken from the most
       | fundamental ways.
       | 
       | Something to learn about this from Japan.
        
       | JustSomeNobody wrote:
       | So, at what point does this become a problem for Amazon (for
       | example)? They _seem_ to not care.
        
         | paxys wrote:
         | Amazon realized long ago that selling cheap Chinese-made
         | products (whether real or fake) isn't the future of the
         | company. Something is only a real problem if it affects their
         | first-party products and services ecosystem (Echo, Alexa, Fire,
         | Kindle, Audible, Ring, Prime, Video, Whole Foods, Fresh).
        
         | kansface wrote:
         | Does Walmart care about low quality products? Or alternatively,
         | what would an online marketplace that avoids fraud,
         | intentionally low quality reproductions, or just low quality
         | products in general look like?
         | 
         | We'd really like to align the incentives of the reviewers with
         | potential buyers. One way to achieve that would be to pay
         | reviewers as judged by the people who buy the product from the
         | service. There are a few problems here, like there not being
         | much incentive to review low volume products, or manufacturers
         | introducing 10k variations that differ by a single letter in a
         | GUID (monitors/tvs), or a change in the quality of the product
         | itself. These sound tractableish.
         | 
         | Outstanding questions: does the math add up such that the
         | incentive of maintaining a high quality platform is larger than
         | the incentive for manufacturers to defect (signal high quality
         | and cheat). Can we pass on that win to reviewers?
         | 
         | Other thoughts: we can't punish manufacturers for cheating
         | because its too easy for their competitors to abuse.
        
         | iujjkfjdkkdkf wrote:
         | I've stopped using amazon for anything unless either I already
         | know exactly what it will be or if its throwaway and I dont
         | care.
         | 
         | Even books now are often something that looks like it was
         | printed on photocopy paper from a word processor.
         | 
         | I think amazon is converging to its niche (maybe not a niche if
         | there is ~a trillion in annual revenue at stake) as a Walmart
         | replacement. For instances where quality matters, I think they
         | are already off the table for many people.
        
           | walshemj wrote:
           | Or check out amazon first and go direct to alternate sites in
           | the UK there are sites like Book Depository for books or
           | Weyland Games for 40K gear 4 music for sound cards etc.
        
         | fullshark wrote:
         | When they stop growing and decide fixing it is the way to win
         | market share against Costco etc / Direct to Consumer
         | purchasing.
        
         | dragontamer wrote:
         | AmazonBasics seems like a way to build brand-name recognition
         | in the face of untrusted online reviews.
         | 
         | Clearly Amazon cares. Not enough to fix the problem, but enough
         | to build a new brand of white-label goods. If anything,
         | untrusted reviews is to the benefit of the AmazonBasics brand.
         | 
         | --------
         | 
         | Amazon Reviews are a benefit to the 3rd party marketplace, more
         | so than anything else. Buying non-branded goods from unknown
         | (or nearly unknown) brands. I'm not entirely sure to see how,
         | or why, untrusted Amazon reviews is Amazons' problem.
        
         | Finnucane wrote:
         | I haven't ordered anything from Amazon in over a year, for
         | various reasons, but the general untrustworthiness is a factor.
         | On the other hand, while the problem is particularly bad for
         | Amazon, it isn't exclusive to them. It has generally become
         | difficult to find reliable information about products. So I
         | tend to stick with stuff I know, and buy direct as much as
         | possible.
        
         | TinyRick wrote:
         | When it affects their bottom line. Consumers largely _seem_ to
         | not care either, and continue buying from Amazon.
        
       | paxys wrote:
       | I recently ordered delivery from a highly-rated restaurant on
       | Yelp. In the bag was a $10 off coupon for the next order if I
       | left a 5-star review and sent them a screenshot. I reported it to
       | Yelp, but to my knowledge nothing has changed. This is the state
       | of online ratings and reviews today.
        
       | bsd44 wrote:
       | Nowadays I look for reviews on Reddit. If I can't find any that I
       | consider to be legitimate, I won't buy the product if it's more
       | than PS10.
        
         | TRcontrarian wrote:
         | I'm afraid it's only a matter of time before that becomes an
         | astroturfing target as well. At least there's account history
         | associated with it, so there is some effort associated with
         | creating or purchasing accounts with believable histories. Long
         | term I think facebook wins this space because they have the
         | most in depth real digital identities tied to people.
        
       | quxbar wrote:
       | The other 60% are simply not paying attention.
        
         | usrusr wrote:
         | The other 60% claim that they were already at zero trust in
         | 2016. I think that they are exaggerating their distrust and I
         | reject the idea that there could be a third option.
        
       | coding123 wrote:
       | Maybe re-phrase the question - I ONLY trust negative reviews now.
       | The key is to see how many people have negative reviews and then
       | scan them.
       | 
       | Let's say I am interested in a BBQ Grill.
       | 
       | 10 reviews about an open box/returned box? I'll probably go to a
       | local CampingWorld and pick it up instead of Amazon and pay the
       | extra $50.
       | 
       | 4 people say the grill grate is bent but there are 1200 other
       | reviews that don't seem to have a problem? Low chance I'm going
       | to get the bent grill grate.
       | 
       | Things like that.
        
         | kardos wrote:
         | > I ONLY trust negative reviews now.
         | 
         | That won't last long, negative reviews will get flooded by
         | glowing reviews with trivial complaints. "This thing is perfect
         | except I don't like green so 1/5"
        
         | m463 wrote:
         | are you saying 1-star reviews? Because they are sometimes
         | bonkers reviews from some non-critical-thinking folks.
         | 
         | I would say 3-star reviews are more likely to provide useful
         | information.
        
         | dragontamer wrote:
         | What if those 1200 other reviews were bought from a Facebook
         | review farm?
         | 
         | https://www.amzfinder.com/blog/top-100-facebook-groups-list-...
         | 
         | There are a ton of Facebook groups out there whose sole purpose
         | is to shove $$$ into paid reviews on Amazon (or Yelp, or other
         | review sites). Could be a bunch of college kids looking to make
         | a quick buck, or maybe some broken-English dude from some 3rd
         | world country who actually made it their full time job. I don't
         | know, but that's not the point.
         | 
         | The point is: you can literally buy Amazon reviews (or Yelp
         | reviews, or ... any kind of review really) from Facebook
         | groups, if you know where to look.
        
           | bombcar wrote:
           | What I look for is bad reviews that indicate to me the
           | problem is PEBKAC - nobody is buying bad reviews, but if the
           | only real complaint is that when someone dropped it on their
           | toes it hurt, then it's probably OK.
           | 
           | But more and more I lean toward "if I have to get it from
           | Amazon it needs to be something I'd be happy with being
           | crap".
        
             | dragontamer wrote:
             | > nobody is buying bad reviews
             | 
             | https://usasocialmediaservices.com/services/buy-negative-
             | fac...
             | 
             | Going price of negative reviews (that lean positive to sell
             | the product) is $10 for 5 reviews.
             | 
             | A mix of good, medium, and bad reviews "naturally" sells a
             | product. You can literally buy astroturfing for your
             | products these days on the cheap.
        
               | bombcar wrote:
               | Ah snap they're on to me. :(
        
               | dragontamer wrote:
               | There's also "rival company" reviews. I've heard from
               | some business friends in the Hotel business that rival
               | Hotels are probably leaving bad reviews on Yelp. And
               | there's pretty much nothing you can do about it.
               | 
               | You look at a review, you back-check the date and try to
               | line it up with customer records. You look for
               | complaints, you ask staff if they remember the customer.
               | Etc. etc. Ultimately, its a phantom, clearly a made-up
               | review designed to hurt your company for some reason.
               | 
               | That's more of a thing on Yelp where if you bad-mouth a
               | neighbor with a fake-review, your own business across the
               | street benefits. Less of a thing on Amazon (where a fake
               | negative review won't necessarily lead to customers
               | buying your thing).
               | 
               | ----------
               | 
               | Back 20 or 30 years ago, a fake negative review on a
               | newspaper or an advertisement would lead to suing the
               | perpetrator for slander or libel. Today, there's no
               | recourse at all. And more-and-more people are learning
               | about the marvels of the modern internet age where you
               | can pretty much slander your opponents and benefit from
               | customers as a result.
        
               | fmajid wrote:
               | And even more devious, companies paying people to leave
               | obviously fake _positive_ reviews for competitors so they
               | get afoul of what little review verification Amazon does,
               | and banned:
               | 
               | https://www.theverge.com/2018/12/19/18140799/amazon-
               | marketpl...
        
             | Fomite wrote:
             | This. I look for genuine problems. Works with hotels too -
             | are the negative reviews unreasonable ("Dude, I think
             | you're the problem, not the hotel...") or things that I can
             | see someone like me being upset about occurring ("They say
             | construction is done on the new wing, it's not done and
             | they start at 8 AM...")
        
       | 99_00 wrote:
       | Every product I order from Amazon from a Chinese brand has an
       | offer for a free 'gift' for leaving a good review.
        
         | klmadfejno wrote:
         | Just curious. Like what kinds of products?
         | 
         | I hear this a lot, but I've never seen it in the wild.
        
         | duxup wrote:
         | That and requests to delete my review in exchange for a refund.
        
           | kevin_thibedeau wrote:
           | I don't even get that courtesy. Amazon deletes legitimate
           | negative reviews all the time without the seller having to
           | make amends.
        
           | elliekelly wrote:
           | Then it's only a matter of time before consumers start gaming
           | the system right back. Write a poor review, await a refund
           | offer, then write the real review.
        
             | FireBeyond wrote:
             | Well the flip side to this scam too is now I start seeing
             | hints in the reviews.
             | 
             | "Edit: I left this review a month ago, and I have not seen
             | the 'special gift' that the seller promised for my help"
        
             | dawnerd wrote:
             | Then find out Amazon wont accept your real review because
             | it 'doesn't meet their community standards'
        
               | jjoonathan wrote:
               | Yep, can't let the word spread that someone peed in the
               | co-mingling pool. That might cause a panic!
               | 
               | Also: can't let the word spread that "prime" shipments
               | get silently substituted for 30-day slow-steamed-in-a-
               | containers-and-then-USPS shipments. That wouldn't reflect
               | fairly on the product!
               | 
               | Ugh.
        
       | briga wrote:
       | I've found that instead of looking for positive reviews I'll
       | first search for negative reviews. Can't really trust the
       | professional reviewers because they have an incentive to bend the
       | truth. But you also can't really trust casual reviewers because
       | it's so easy to game the system. Sometimes I'll look at places
       | like Reddit for product reviews but you can't even really trust
       | that anymore because more and more companies have started to
       | understand the value of viral marketing on social media. So it
       | seems like the only thing you can really trust are the negative
       | reviews.
        
         | breckenedge wrote:
         | And you can't really trust those either since companies will
         | review competitor's products negatively. These days I just ask
         | coworkers and friends and family
        
           | flanbiscuit wrote:
           | Yeah the whole system is gamed. This is my process:
           | 
           | - check out the reviews that actually post pictures
           | 
           | - read the 1-stars to see what happened.
           | 
           | - Do a google search for "best X product" to see if product
           | shows up there. Sift through the many many bullshit sites set
           | up to make money from Amazon affiliate links. Sometimes a
           | result sticks out that I feel like I can easily trust, like
           | if I'm looking for hiking equipment and an REI links shows
           | up. Even the NY Times has a whole product review section and
           | has amazon affiliate links:
           | https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/
           | 
           | - Look for YouTube video reviews. I know a lot of those are
           | free products provided to YouTubers so I take any positive
           | reviews by them with a grain of salt. I just want to see the
           | product in use.
           | 
           | - Check out Reddit. Also take these with some scrutiny
           | because Reddit has already been infiltrated by marketing
           | companies willing to pay for fake reviews & upvotes
           | 
           | - Check FakeSpot and ReviewMeta to see what they say
           | 
           | - Analysis paralysis sets in. Are the good reviews fake? Are
           | the bad reviews from competitors? Did the websites reviewing
           | the products actually review it or just searched the top 10?
           | 
           | - Walk away for a day or 2
           | 
           | - Go back to the product, and decide to gamble and buy one of
           | the top results in Amazon.
           | 
           | It's so annoying
        
       | sgt101 wrote:
       | I just hope that the 44% didn't trust them 5 years ago either!
        
       | mumblemumble wrote:
       | I also don't particularly trust professional reviews anymore. The
       | affiliate link funding model has set up a glaring conflict of
       | interest.
        
         | yborg wrote:
         | Consumer Reports. That's literally it.
        
           | monkeybutton wrote:
           | Are they still influential? They're something I associate
           | with my parent's generation and the era of print magazines.
        
             | mumblemumble wrote:
             | They won't influence you if you don't subscribe, of course.
             | 
             | I used to subscribe, my sense is that they do a good job,
             | but their tastes are geared toward those of more affluent
             | boomers and genxers. If you're someone who can't afford a
             | Lexus, or who'd even consider choosing a Kia over a Lexus
             | even though you can easily afford one, then Consumer
             | Reports may not cater to your tastes.
        
               | kevin_thibedeau wrote:
               | It was humorous when they started doing computer reviews
               | in the 90's and they clearly didn't have a clue about
               | what they were reviewing.
        
               | throwawayboise wrote:
               | How so? I mean, I could imagine that they were reviewing
               | computers on practical things that real-world users cared
               | about, but maybe a tech enthusiast would find irrelevant.
        
               | bluGill wrote:
               | I remember they rated the Atari (8 bit) computers a best
               | buy. At the time I was an Atari fan and that how great it
               | was. On hindsight, it was obvious even back then that the
               | Atari was obsolete and the PC was where everyone was
               | going for a reason. (though they could reasonably put
               | mac/St/Amiga in the review, at least they were not
               | obsolete)
               | 
               | That would have been the mid-late 80s, but it set the
               | tone for the time: rate something high because it was
               | cheap not because it was the best for the job.
        
               | Mc91 wrote:
               | I subscribe to their web site. Because my father
               | subscribed and liked it, and I find it useful as well -
               | also my former team lead was a lead there for a while. It
               | is $40 a year.
               | 
               | They do surveys of consumers as well as do their own
               | testing. About once a year they survey about vacuum
               | cleaners - I had to buy one recently, and some brands got
               | high grades, other low grades - so I bought a Shark
               | vacuum cleaner. A few years ago I needed to buy an air
               | conditioner and used CR for that as well. I also needed a
               | laptop in a hurry and CR was one source I consulted
               | (although I consulted several sources).
               | 
               | $40 a year is worth it to me to get a decent air
               | conditioner and vacuum cleaner and such at a decent price
               | (and laptop, although CR was just once of the consulted
               | sources). The Shark vacuum cleaner was the last item I
               | bought and it picks up dirt good, is easy to empty, and
               | can vacuum rugs as well as things that need the hose to
               | vacuum.
        
           | wincy wrote:
           | My method for making >$100 purchases is open up Consumer
           | Reports, look at the top 3 ratings, and often the first will
           | be some I'm sure very good product at $1200, and the second-
           | best will be $500, so I buy the second-best rated of
           | everything.
           | 
           | Like a Peloton is really good, yeah, but there's probably a
           | $1000 treadmill that's pretty good, or Traeger makes great if
           | overpriced pellet grills, but there's definitely some cheaper
           | options that will smoke your meat fine if you don't need wifi
           | and bluetooth for your smoker. And then sometimes the
           | expensive products are really terrible quality with an aura
           | of mystique about then (looking at you, Molekule air
           | purifier) and Consumer Reports is willing to call these snake
           | oil salesmen companies.
           | 
           | I don't trust any other reviews, though.
        
           | [deleted]
        
       | boatsie wrote:
       | The internet is making everything winner take all. Off the first
       | page of Google? You don't exist. Not on first page of Amazon for
       | "Bluetooth headphones"? You don't exist. That's why companies
       | will pay so much to game whatever system gets them to the top
       | rank, which is only further reinforced when people buy/click that
       | top product/result. This is a hard problem to solve but I think
       | there needs to be a way of segmenting the results you see,
       | perhaps more highly weighting the opinions of others similar (in
       | preferences) to you.
        
       | JohnTHaller wrote:
       | Tons of Amazon vendors pay for reviews. Either a direct offer
       | ahead of time (buy this product, give it a 5 star review, we pay
       | you via PayPal), an offer in the box (give us a good review and
       | we'll give you a free product!), or in response to a bad review
       | (delete your review and we'll give you a refund). This is
       | expected behavior now on Amazon. Amazon doesn't ever seem to
       | penalize these vendors as they keep making Amazon money. They
       | will, however, ban customers from leaving reviews once they have
       | engaged in this. And prevent users from posting reviews
       | mentioning things like receiving counterfeit products (had this
       | happen to me).
        
       | ggggtez wrote:
       | There was a time when I read Amazon reviews. At best now, I only
       | look at the 1 star reviews to see if there are glaring problems.
       | Any review with 4 or more stars causes "ad blindness" for me. I
       | don't even see them.
        
       | everdrive wrote:
       | As well they should.
       | 
       | This is a game of cat and mouse. Consumers were ahead for a
       | little while, but companies have really gotten a grasp on the
       | internet, and they're winning the information war.
       | 
       | It's no mistake that I've come to rely on brand name again. It's
       | the best heuristic available to me. When all this first started
       | (mid-2000s) I was actively avoiding basing ANY decision on brand
       | name. For a brief window, I had better information, but no more.
        
         | AdmiralAsshat wrote:
         | > It's no mistake that I've come to rely on brand name again.
         | 
         | I've been saying for awhile, this could be the salvation for
         | brick-and-mortar stores. As long as Amazon continues to play
         | fast and loose with counterfeits, the one thing that will get
         | me to drive down to the store and buy something in-person is
         | the store's guarantee that the product came from the vendor
         | whose name is on the box, and that I can return it if I get a
         | lemon.
        
           | MereInterest wrote:
           | That and in-person testing of equipment. When (pre-pandemic)
           | I was buying a new set of headphones, I was able to go
           | through different options, test out how they feel, and
           | whether there are any significant sound quality issues. I
           | prefer over-the-ear headphones, but have bigger ears, so it
           | is hard to tell whether a set will be comfortable without
           | trying them on first. To do the same with an online store
           | would require ordering a dozen headsets, then navigating the
           | return policies for all but one of them.
        
         | jedberg wrote:
         | This is true in the real world again (still?) too. We're
         | currently stocking up on disinfecting wipes to donate to the
         | school when they open next month. We've been told that the
         | teachers only want brand name Clorox wipes, because they don't
         | trust any other brand to actually disinfect safely.
        
           | neartheplain wrote:
           | Unfortunately, even this approach isn't foolproof. Fake
           | brand-name products make it into supply chains all the time,
           | especially on sites like Amazon via third-party sellers. In
           | China for example, "fake alcohol" (where brand-name bottles
           | are refilled with cheaper, sometimes dangerous off-brand
           | liquors) has been a big problem:
           | 
           | https://www.mersolluo.com/china-cracking-down-on-
           | counterfeit...
           | 
           | I can't imagine that the rubbing alcohol wipe industry is
           | that much more resistant to counterfeiting.
           | 
           | (Edit: It's not- https://wjla.com/features/7-on-your-
           | side/scammers-promise-cl...)
        
             | jedberg wrote:
             | Yeah that is true. I'm hoping Costco has their supply chain
             | down well enough that it's not an issue, but at least there
             | is a slightly higher chance it's legit if it says Clorox on
             | the side.
        
               | bombcar wrote:
               | Yeah, we've gone back to having to trust the brand name
               | of the distributor - if it says it came from Amazon it is
               | basically assumed to be counterfeit chinese crap; Costco
               | and Home Depot (and even Walmart in store) are a bit more
               | secure there.
        
               | depingus wrote:
               | Does Walmart (online) co-mingle their inventory with
               | third party inventory like Amazon?
        
               | somethingwitty1 wrote:
               | Amazon doesn't co-mingle their inventory with 3Ps, they
               | do co-mingle 3Ps that don't opt to avoid it. This is one
               | of the reasons I look for the "sold and shipped by
               | Amazon" for important purchases.
               | 
               | Unfortunately, I've never seen information about how
               | Walmart handles this. Given their massive shift to 3Ps
               | providing most of their products online...I'd imagine
               | they use a similar strategy (it improves same/next day
               | availability and lowers cost). I follow the same strategy
               | with Walmart (try to only buy directly).
               | 
               | It is a sad time for online purchasing :(
        
               | bombcar wrote:
               | I'd heard that they DO mingle their 1st party inventory,
               | but that you have an easy return when it turns out to be
               | fake; but perhaps the story changes.
        
               | jxramos wrote:
               | absolutely, I've been shifting my purchases to in store,
               | leaning heavily towards Costco because whoever their
               | buyers are have a good eye for quality. Also with their
               | incredibly generous return policy I don't really worry
               | about buying things from Costco and will buy by default
               | because I know I can change my mind later if things don't
               | work out.
        
           | lotsofpulp wrote:
           | Surely buying a brand name disinfectant by the gallon and
           | paper towels and a spray bottle are orders of magnitude
           | cheaper. And probably orders of magnitude better for the
           | environment?
        
             | throwawayboise wrote:
             | Not to mention it isn't really necessary. It's pretty clear
             | now that surface contact is not a major vector for COVID
             | transmission.
             | 
             | https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-
             | si...
        
               | jedberg wrote:
               | Teachers have been using disinfecting wipes for decades,
               | not just for COVID. Kids spread lots of germs.
        
               | thrwaway2day wrote:
               | When dealing with teachers understand that when presented
               | with a career choice they are the folks who self selected
               | into the job with summers off and the easiest course
               | load. They will use the smallest excuse not to have to
               | show up for work.
        
               | bluGill wrote:
               | Covid isn't the only reason to disinfect surfaces. Proper
               | disinfecting surfaces does prevent a large number of
               | diseases. Covid we now know isn't one of them, but the
               | others are still a worry.
        
             | jedberg wrote:
             | If you're an engineer, and when you get back to your job
             | you're told that you are now responsible for wiping down
             | your workstation every hour, your first response will
             | probably be, "I'm an engineer that's not my job" and your
             | second response will be, "ok fine but make it as easy as
             | possible".
             | 
             | Teachers are not supposed to be cleaning their classroom or
             | teaching your kids about hygiene, but they have to now
             | because parents don't and there is no budget for staff.
             | There needs to be a tradeoff there. Spend a little more on
             | supplies to save time so you don't have to hire a janitor
             | to come around every hour and wipe down the classroom.
        
         | spoonjim wrote:
         | There are also retailers which actually vet brands. For example
         | anything edible that Target or Walmart or Trader Joe's or Whole
         | Foods (Amazon ownership notwithstanding) sells in their stores,
         | they actually contract a testing company to test it to make
         | sure that it's safe. For things where safety is important an
         | actual physical national store is going to be much better than
         | Amazon.
        
           | TheCoelacanth wrote:
           | That's still relying on brand name, just the brand of the
           | retailer instead of the brand of the manufacturer.
        
         | sharkweek wrote:
         | I used to trust Amazon for just about anything I needed to buy,
         | but I'd guess maybe in the last 6-8 years I'll mostly only
         | order something if I recognize the brand name selling me the
         | product.
         | 
         | Tried to buy a pair of cheap-ish bluetooth headphones off there
         | a few months ago. Three different pairs and none of them even
         | worked out of the box. Gave up and bought a more expensive pair
         | from a known brand.
        
           | depingus wrote:
           | You can't trust ANYTHING on Amazon; including name brand.
           | They co-mingle their legit inventory with counterfeit 3rd
           | party inventory. When you order something, even if it's "Sold
           | and Shipped from Amazon", they ship you the closest product.
           | You may very well end up getting the fake 3rd party item.
        
             | cout wrote:
             | If it's Amazon brand (e.g. Kindle), I'd be surprised to get
             | a counterfeit.
             | 
             | I also trust less popular brands to not be counterfeit,
             | though I expect that to change in the future.
        
             | everybodyknows wrote:
             | Also ship damaged, repackaged goods as "new", e.g. monitor
             | with scratched screen. Solution: Order monitor from
             | Staples, insist employee open box for inspection. Cost an
             | extra $20 over Amazon -- bargain!
        
           | AJ007 wrote:
           | My experience ordering from Shopify sites over the past or
           | two: the checkout is now faster and easier than Amazon.
           | Overall Amazon's failings are good for everyone else involved
           | in e-commerce. The bottlenecks to purchasing online 20 years
           | ago are far behind us now.
           | 
           | If your business is selling low margin items at massive scale
           | then Amazon probably continues to win (in the US.)
        
         | rsj_hn wrote:
         | Why not look at consumer reports
         | (https://www.consumerreports.org/)? I purchased a subscription
         | and use them quite a bit. The problem here is in willingness to
         | pay. If companies are willing to pay to promote their product,
         | you will need to pay to get objective information. Any attempts
         | at free objective information is going to be vulnerable to
         | pollution by those willing to spend resources.
        
         | tobib wrote:
         | And then there are fakes of brand name products which makes it
         | difficult to even know what you're buying. Personally I started
         | buying things that I used to buy at Amazon locally instead
         | whenever and wherever possible. That might mean a trip to the
         | store but better than not knowing what you get.
        
         | Shivetya wrote:
         | Oh my, I am at the point I only read the 1 star reviews and
         | maybe 2 star reviews. Worse dealing with Amazon is a royal pain
         | when the company fulfilling the order ships the wrong item.
         | 
         | Brand names are a fine method to follow but not when sellers
         | ship the wrong model/version/etc.
        
         | fearling wrote:
         | > It's no mistake that I've come to rely on brand name again.
         | 
         | Big +1 here. Brand name is a core part of my decision making
         | process at this point. Otherwise, I'm relying on word of mouth.
         | _Occasionally_ , I'll use some of the more "reliable"
         | independent review services.
        
           | tjs8rj wrote:
           | This has been mentioned before but I've done this for a
           | while: searching "[product] reddit" often does the trick when
           | looking for candid reviews. Normal people with nothing to
           | gain except internet points (which just incentivizes them to
           | give the popular consensus or fantastic failure of the
           | product).
        
             | mumblemumble wrote:
             | Though, I would still go stalk the reviewer a bit and make
             | sure they're a real person. Reddit isn't necessarily any
             | less amenable to astroturfing than amazon.com or
             | bestbuy.com; the only thing that might be protecting it
             | right now is that it's currently not as big a pot of honey.
        
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