[HN Gopher] A new chapter - full-time working from a van in a fo...
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A new chapter - full-time working from a van in a forest
Author : ghuntley
Score : 290 points
Date : 2021-02-27 13:11 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (ghuntley.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (ghuntley.com)
| akudha wrote:
| I expect more and more people are going to live in vans, buy tiny
| houses etc. Housing prices across the world are insane, rental
| prices are even worse (though Covid has put a temporary brake on
| rents/prices, it will go back up soon enough). And wages aren't
| rising, and rental companies buying up properties every chance
| they get.
|
| Something needs to change. Why screw oneself with a 30 year
| mortgage, plus property taxes, plus constant maintenance
| headaches? And deal with shitty HOA too, in some places. Maybe
| this is a good way to silently protest and force progressive
| housing policy changes.
| shrubble wrote:
| Starlink internet may be the catalyst for an exodus from the
| cities(even though many smaller cities and towns do have good
| enough internet). Or at least a re-examination , given that so
| many are working from home.
| mym1990 wrote:
| While I see some of your point, it goes without saying that
| vanlife or smaller dwellings will still have maintenance and
| overhead. You can trade the HOA for gas costs and campground
| fees(across the US at least unless you're on public land). The
| vehicle will breakdown, the vehicle will get broken into, etc,
| etc...
|
| With a more remote workforce now on the long term horizon, why
| not just move to a cheaper city rather completely jumping off
| the proverbial cliff?
|
| (This comment is coming from someone who is considering van
| life and I have also spent some extended periods of time
| working and living out of my vehicle).
| dredmorbius wrote:
| A cheap home base + a van seems like a flexible option.
| You've got low overhead but the option to hit the road for
| on-location gigs or when the wanderlust kicks in. A co-
| housing arrangement might make the base more tractable.
| akudha wrote:
| Yeah, true. But there is a big difference between maintaining
| a three bedroom house (or apartment) and a tiny house. Van
| life is probably much harder (just guessing, I haven't done
| it), so it will probably not be as widespread as tiny houses.
|
| Remote work might not be possible for everyone.
|
| Personally, moving to a cheaper city would be my first
| choice, followed by tiny house.
|
| All of these have pros and cons. But for many people in their
| 20s/30s, buying a house might never be an option at all,
| simply because they can't afford it.
|
| Unless progressive policies are implemented, we can expect
| major housing crisis soon. People want their home's value to
| continuously increase, they see their home as an investment
| first - instead of seeing it as a place to live, first.
|
| I dunno what the solution is, but I don't think this
| situation can continue.
| Erlich_Bachman wrote:
| > Housing prices across the world are insane,
|
| They only are insane if you insist on living centrally in large
| cities. Which you can't do anyway if you live in a van. So it's
| hard to give a lot of weight to this prediction.
| randomsearch wrote:
| I think they're just insane generally. Almost everywhere in
| the U.K., housing is much more expensive than the cost of
| building it.
|
| This is really beginning to concern me. I think we've created
| a fake plastic economy built on face plastic house prices. By
| stoking the bubble, the purchase and renovation of housing
| keeps pushing money through the economy.
|
| By constantly remortgaging, new value is "created" which
| allows people to have a new kitchen, go on holiday, buy a
| car, extend their house. But it feels like a trick to me. I'm
| not an economist, but where's the wealth creation here?
|
| As a result of the forever rising prices, foreign investors
| buy properties, often leaving them empty. They see the game
| the government is playing and exploit it.
|
| Feels like the U.K. government doesn't have a Plan B. They
| don't know how to create a strong economy so they turn to
| retail and the housing market. Surely the wheels have to fall
| off at some point?
| pjc50 wrote:
| Most of the price is in the land value. And quite a lot of
| the bubble money is from overseas, as you've spotted. The
| UK is using housing as an export industry. One of the few
| export industries unaffected by Brexit.
|
| UK retail is just wrecked. Even before the pandemic it
| wasn't great.
| ptrincr wrote:
| > _This is really beginning to concern me. I think we've
| created a fake plastic economy built on face plastic house
| prices. By stoking the bubble, the purchase and renovation
| of housing keeps pushing money through the economy._
|
| This has been an issue for a long time now. There should
| have been a crash in 2008/2009 but instead the government
| in the UK decided to prop up house prices with various
| schemes. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, for many
| people, house owners and people looking to purchase, this
| helped people stay out of negative equity/allowed people to
| purchase their own home.
|
| > _By constantly remortgaging, new value is "created" which
| allows people to have a new kitchen, go on holiday, buy a
| car, extend their house. But it feels like a trick to me.
| I'm not an economist, but where's the wealth creation
| here?_
|
| I'm not sure remortgaging is creating new value. All money
| is loaned into existence, remortgaging is just creating new
| debt secured on your home. It still has to be paid back.
| People could still get loans, just not perhaps at the same
| favorable rate.
|
| There has been a lot of money printing over the past 10
| years or so, I think rising house prices are a natural
| result of that. I think it's more of a case of decreasing
| purchasing power of the PS in your pocket, rather than
| homes rising in value. Have a look at this chart when house
| prices are compared with gold[0]. It's also a function of
| the availability of loans, since now you can borrow cheaply
| over long periods, this increases the total amount people
| are able to borrow, as it's much easier to service the
| debt.
|
| What's more surprising to me is that we're not really
| seeing inflation in other areas of the economy, such as
| wages or consumer goods. Inflation has been surprising low
| since the crisis of 2008/2009.
|
| [0] http://pricedingold.com/uk-house-prices/
| randomsearch wrote:
| Was hoping someone would reply and convince me I was
| wrong rather than agree :-/
|
| "Value" in quotes because it isn't, as you said.
|
| Regarding inflation: I think house price rises have been
| stoked by the stamp duty trick once again, but agree that
| there may also be a bit of inflation mixed in.
|
| The reason we're not seeing general inflation yet is the
| extra money supply has yet to leave bank accounts and
| move through the consumer economy. After things open up,
| we should see that money being spent and a short term
| boom, then as demand rises prices will respond and we'll
| see inflation. At least according to Keynes, who in
| retrospect just seems to be more and more correct.
|
| Wages won't rise at the same pace because employers will
| exploit inflation, the trade unions are weak, and the
| govt doesn't care - 120K dead and the Tories are seven
| points ahead, reality doesn't matter in U.K. politics.
| bananaface wrote:
| Getting a mortgage isn't purchasing a home, _paying off_
| a mortgage is purchasing a home. The bank owns your home
| when you get a mortgage, and they have the right to sell
| if you miss even your last payment.
|
| If the housing market crashes 30% tomorrow it'll bankrupt
| everyone who signed on for a 30-year mortgage in the last
| 10 years, unless they've overpaid substantially. Very few
| leveraged first time buyers who bought since 2008 own
| their homes yet.
| dredmorbius wrote:
| If you look at the net of local affordability, access, and
| availability, the problem is widespread.
|
| Housing has become a principle (and one of the largest) asset
| classes. The things that make it suitable for investing are
| precisely the same attributes that make it inaccessible,
| especially to the young, poor, old, and otherwise
| disadvantaged.
|
| Flyover-state housing may be affordable by SF / New York / LA
| / Chicago standards. It's often _not_ affordable to locals
| themselves.
|
| And services (data, power, food, support, healthcare,
| education) are often far below standards typical on the
| coasts / near major metros.
| thecardcheat wrote:
| All of this - and maintenance. The house that may be
| "inexpensive" re: sale price may cost just as much to fix.
| The cost of fixing X sq ft of thing or replacing appliance
| Y may certainly increase with the size of the home, but
| even small homes can have major expenses (and if you are in
| a "cheaper" area this means more home for less, so more to
| fix).
|
| Lack of regulation in places without rigid building code
| enforcement can also make it hard to find people who aren't
| hacks (if you can find people at all) in construction.
| maxerickson wrote:
| Power and internet in small towns (and anywhere larger)
| isn't "far below" the standards on the coasts, the internet
| is fast and power is reliable.
|
| There's a lot less restaurants, and they are all the same,
| and grocers tend not to stock quite as much variety, so
| those are more true.
|
| Education and healthcare are a lot more variable. I expect
| having to travel further tends to be the biggest difference
| in healthcare.
| tkiolp4 wrote:
| Large cities is where jobs are. 90% of the jobs out there are
| non remote.
| legulere wrote:
| The problem is not the cost of houses, but the cost of land in
| desirable locations. Van living and tiny houses don't solve
| those problems and most people are still bound to their city
| jobs.
| gexla wrote:
| Right, why can't I just delete my comment then?
|
| [ETA: Removed content of unpopular comment]
| b0tzzzzzzman wrote:
| Glad I can comment.. But today I tried to make an Ask HN
| postbecause I wanted to talk to tbis community ... and I guess
| I have too little 'karma' or idk.. Can't post on most sub/R.
| Without using my main long standing account..Twitter deletes
| any account I make just to follow people, FB.. Well just no.
| Disenfranchisement is real on HN. Wish I had the old account I
| made on my Last Android..
| bpodgursky wrote:
| Then you should post those articles, and comment on them,
| instead of complaining about this one.
| seibelj wrote:
| This thought experiment is turtles all the way down. When you
| read about someone running a marathon, do you not think from
| the perspective of a paraplegic? How dare someone writes about
| something as trivial as running super long distances, when we
| could be reading about people who struggle to walk one step?
|
| Yes, the world is full of problems, but we don't need to stop
| living our best lives and writing about them just because
| someone, somewhere is living worse.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Once replied to, a comment can't be deleted, but still edited
| for two hours from creation.
| agumonkey wrote:
| I see a lot of people, a lot, spending time in their cars. Adults
| between duties sit in theirs on parking spots. Teens spending
| nights watching movies.
|
| With wireless coms, weird real estate fluctuations.. new vehicle
| designs too it might become a new form of nomadism.. are we
| becoming snails ?
| blunte wrote:
| There's so much value in this post that it's worth reading a few
| times.
| lioeters wrote:
| I agree, that was quite an article: heartfelt and thought-
| provoking.
|
| Thank you, Geoff, for writing about your experience. It made me
| happy to see how you pulled through the difficult times, and
| living better than ever.
| ghuntley wrote:
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| I have been prototyping a portable working setup so that I can
| write code while camping. Rather than a van I've got a smallish
| travel trailer (24') in part because I like having the tow
| vehicle available when I don't want to batten down the hatches to
| go into town, but we are set up for 100% off road dry camping
| which gives us access to a LOT of BLM land. Now if I could get
| mobile Starlink service ... that would be stellar. But not
| happening any time soon AFAICT.
| whymauri wrote:
| How are you dealing with internet connectivity? Also car/van
| dwelling here (dipping my toes in for a few weeks) while taking
| a break from employment. I'm starting to get attached to the
| nomadic life style, lol.
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| Generally cellular signals. For actual development I don't
| need connectivity (embedded/fpga stuff) so it isn't a large
| handicap.
| saint_angels wrote:
| seems people upgrade their vans significantly(additional
| batteries, solar panels etc) before living and remotely working
| from it. Is it because there is no good ready-made options, or
| vans like that are too expensive?
| michaelt wrote:
| I think the DIY aspect is the brand differentiation between
| "vanlife" and living in an RV in the wal-mart parking lot.
|
| There's plenty of ready-made options, they're just not using
| the "vanlife" brand on their blog posts.
| monkmartinez wrote:
| Great story! My wife and I recently sold our home and are now
| renting. My stress level has decreased 10 fold in the last 4
| months since selling. There is always that little nag in the back
| of your mind regarding a house: "I would love to go on that trip
| and we have the money, but our <A/C || roof || plumbing ||
| appliance> is going to need to be replaced in the next year or
| so."
|
| I don't think I am cut out for a permanent #vanlife, but it sure
| sounds like a cool arrangement if you have the proclivity to
| handle all that it entails. My wife and I plan to do slow travel
| when our kids go to college. Move every year or so with a light
| load while learning different cultures.
|
| Would love to hear more about the financial aspects of
| #vanlife... from my perspective, I reckon you save a bundle....
| but I could be wrong.
| tomerbd wrote:
| What about a nag in the head that something would happen to the
| bank account that has the money that you got from selling the
| house or by money deprecation with relation to housing prices
| (or stock market crash if in stocks)?
| johanvts wrote:
| Buy some real estate that someone else lives in, maybe
| through a REIT.
| jdthedisciple wrote:
| "...but our <A/C || roof || plumbing || appliance> is going to
| need to be replaced in the next year or so"
|
| How does this prevent you from going on a trip? I don't
| understand. Mind to elaborate a bit?
| speedgoose wrote:
| Many people don't have enough money to replace their roof and
| go on a trip in the same period.
| danielheath wrote:
| If your plumbing or roof fails and you aren't there to deal
| with it immediately, the bill is pretty steep (once the
| weather / water gets inside the house).
| mrweasel wrote:
| Replacing our roof last year was 40.000USD, (250.000DKK).
| While we able to pay it off faster, it's basically a 14 year
| bank loan. Not everyone, depending on country and salary, is
| able to get those loans at reasonable rate, but you'll still
| need a new roof. That means saving like crazy and holidays
| get expensive pretty fast, and isn't something you REALLY
| need, making it a place to save money.
|
| Try saving to much on home maintenance and you risk damaging
| your property, lowering it's value in the future. Owning a
| home is expensive, it's still a sound finacial choice,
| depending on country and so on, but it has a running cost.
| brimstedt wrote:
| Having a home is definitely expensive, but in my mind it
| also comes down to manage money.
|
| When you get your pay, put aside money first and save for
| dedicated budgets.
|
| Decide what budget you think is required in each slot.
|
| Example: I want a house saving for min $30000 for
| unexpected and expected maintenance.
|
| I want a minimum of $8000 for vacations.
|
| Etc
|
| Then, save as much as you can into those accounts until you
| reach their goal and then keep saving into them, but maybe
| lower the amount.
|
| In the beginning (and if your out in time, this will be
| while you're DINKing) it might be rough, but it will be
| easier as your buffers stabilize.
|
| When fixing the house, don't steal money from your travel
| buffer. And absolutely never take money from house buffer
| for travels. :-)
|
| I think a lot of people spend way to much on luxury, like
| eating out or having three movie streaming services instead
| of none or one. And then they realize that "oops, no money
| left for savings this month neither"
|
| Survival, savings, higher standard, then luxury, not the
| other way around.
| kugla wrote:
| But even when renting the roof still needs to be replaced.
| Owner pays for it, but it is financed from rent money.
| mrweasel wrote:
| I don't know how it works around the world, but
| maintenance of the property is normally factored into the
| rent. Large maintenance work won't affect your rent so
| your expences are more predictable.
| Jon_Lowtek wrote:
| expenses are predictable, which may lower the stress
| level, which is the main part of the parent comment.
| However owners want to make money using the property, so
| rent is overall higher then the cost of owning the
| property including roof replacements.
|
| The problem many home buyers face is that it has become
| normal to go deeply into debt to buy and maintain a
| house, so it is not like they pay rent into their own
| house ownership account which slowly accumulates reserves
| for costly maintenance. A house costs twice as much as
| its sale price and if one has to go into dept to buy it
| in the first place, one is not middle class.
|
| Back in Boomer-Days a middle class worker could buy and
| maintain a house, provide for a family with multiple
| children, pay for their education and still have money
| left to go on vacation. Today two working parents can't
| do the same, instead children go into debt to finance
| their education and fathers live in their cars in googles
| parking lot.
| ornornor wrote:
| Sure but the point is that you always pay the monthly
| rent no matter what instead of having to pay 40k one
| month because of the roof. Also, in some places, it's
| actually cheaper to rent because properties are
| overvalued.
| throwaway316943 wrote:
| 40000USD!? Must be one hell of a roof. Where I live it's
| less than a quarter of that unless you live in a McMansion.
| mrweasel wrote:
| It's Denmark, and that was actually the cheapest offer.
| Half the cost is labour, but we opted for the cheaper
| cemet tiles, the alternative would have been clay tiles,
| like bricks, but for the roof.
|
| It's honestly a pretty good deal. Oh and we have a 25%
| VAT on everything, so your price is basically just what I
| have to pay in VAT.
| popotamonga wrote:
| Why do roofs need replacement? Cant they make more durable
| roofs? Is it the rain? (Never had to deal with such
| problems so have no idea)
| violetgarden wrote:
| Where I live, there is extreme weather like hurricanes or
| tornadoes. Even if you opt for a more expensive roof, the
| wind might come along and wreck it. Most people I know
| have shingles, and they wear down in the elements after
| 20 years or so. You might start getting leaks or you
| might not, but once your roof reaches a certain age you
| can expect to start seeing problems. Kinda like a car.
| mrweasel wrote:
| Sure, you can get a roof that last for 120 - 150 years,
| but the cost means that many opted for cheaper solutions.
| My house was built with an asbestos roof, those last
| forever, almost. If a tile broke I would get asbestos
| particles in my yard.
| gambiting wrote:
| I've lived in houses which were close to 100 years
| old(British terraced houses from the 1930s) and the idea
| of having to replace the roof is.....a bit weird. Sure
| they need repairs, an odd tile replaced here and there,
| but....replacing the whole thing? I can't think of any
| reason why you'd need to do that.
| michaelt wrote:
| My parents replaced the roof on their 150-year-old slate-
| roofed house, as did several other people on the street.
|
| A house that old will often have developed a few minor
| leaks in its lifetime. It's been subject to a lot of
| weathering. Probably it was put in without any felt
| underneath, as was normal at the time. Maybe the nails
| have weakened from rust. Many lofts are a bit damp, due
| to condensation as the roof is of course cold. So often
| the battens holding the slates will be a bit tired as
| well.
|
| You spend a few years with strategically placed plastic
| tubs catching drips, then a once-a-decade storm comes
| along, you lose several slates at once, and it's time for
| a new roof.
| throwaway316943 wrote:
| Asphalt shingles. They degrade over time and can't be
| replaced piecemeal. They're cheap and easy to lay down. I
| think the original idea behind them was that the home
| owners could DIY cheaply every 10-15 years but both
| houses and people have moved away from that being
| considered an option. If you have a low pitch roof
| without a lot of valleys it's still easy to do though.
| lb1lf wrote:
| Oh, you can, but it grows expensive fast.
|
| Around here (Norway) a lot of houses have shingles on the
| roof - typical lifespan ~20 years or so. On the upside,
| it is simple to replace.
|
| Next step up being corrugated steel, though mostly it is
| shaped to look like tile. IIRC you can expect to get
| 30-40 years out of one.
|
| Proper tile - lifespan depends greatly on the quality of
| the tile, but around here (west coast, lots of crap
| weather) the limiting factor tends to be the nails used
| to hold the tiles in place.
|
| Anecdotally, my father in law and I redid a slate roof
| last laid in 1917 last year. The nails had all but rusted
| away, and only the sheer mass of the slates held them in
| place. We redid it using marine grade stainless screws,
| part of me is a little peeved that I won't ever know how
| long it lasts - but I fully expect it to last way more
| than 100 years. Was fun to etch a couple of small plaques
| for my far-off descendants to read, though. We put them
| under the first couple of slates you'd need to remove
| when redoing the roof. :-)
| tarsinge wrote:
| I have quite the opposite experience: my stress level decreased
| since I own. I guess it depends on your financial comfort.
| Doing the vanlife is great but what happens if you lose your
| job and your van needs maintenance? Maybe add a downturn on the
| stock market. Suddenly you have nothing. It's a very personal
| choice, for me traveling freely while being assured I have a
| place back home (albeit very minimalist) was needed.
| deanclatworthy wrote:
| You have similar anxieties with renting. "When will my landlord
| give me my 6 month notice?" Depending on your location and who
| you are finding an apartment for rent can't be easier. e.g. in
| Finland most landlords won't pick foreign names.
| pjc50 wrote:
| Six month notice? Try one month notice.
| [deleted]
| have_faith wrote:
| > 6 month notice
|
| What alternative timeline is this?
| nom wrote:
| Come to Germany where it's almost impossible for a landlord
| to get rid of a tenant unless there are special
| circumstances and lots of time, effort and money involved
| by the landlord.
| deanclatworthy wrote:
| Europe :)
| Daho0n wrote:
| That's illegal. They can't throw you out even when the
| contract run out unless they are moving in themselves.
| Dansvidania wrote:
| Where in Europe? In my experience (In Italy, Spain, Czech
| Republic) the notice period is 2 months.
| wiredfool wrote:
| We got 4 months in Ireland, but the statutory requirement
| was less than that for the time that we had been there.
| Had we been in the house another year os wo, it would
| have been 6 months.
| CorrectHorseBat wrote:
| Belgium, 6 months minimum with conditions.
| Hard_Space wrote:
| UK.
|
| Source: Frequently happened to me when I rented.
| jlokier wrote:
| UK.
|
| Currently I can be given 2 months notice at any time.
|
| This is actually preferable to on the earlier time with
| this tenancy, where I could be given 2 months notice and
| also the landlord makes an active decision whether to
| renew or decline every 12 months.
|
| In fact they always send a no-reason formal eviction
| notice 3 months before the end of each 12 months renewal
| as a matter of policy, just to rub it in.
|
| (I would be surprised if that's legal. It seems against
| the spirit of eviction law where timescales are supposed
| to begin when a tenant refuses to leave, not months
| before they are supposed to leave)
|
| On one occasion they did decline to renew, giving no
| reason. They changed their mind at the last moment after
| I had a chat with the landlord's property manager. That
| was a source of great stress for me, not even knowing
| why.
|
| Eventually I found out. The agency (not landlord) told
| me, to my face, that they didn't know the why, couldn't
| get a reason, but the landlord had decided not to renew.
| But later the landlord's property manager told me that
| the agency had _lied to my face_ and the landlord did not
| initiate the decline.
|
| It was the agency who had made the recommendation. I saw
| it advertised briefly at ~35% raise, so I suspect that
| was their motivation. These are not rent-controlled, I
| already pay a substantially above inflation annual raise,
| so it's not stuck on an ancient rate. If they had got a
| tenant in to replace me, not only would they have
| increased their agency fees as a percentage, they would
| have charged the landlord additional fees for processing
| a new tenant as well.
| nextos wrote:
| Sadly, the UK rental market is terrible.
|
| Real estate managers are incentivized to change tenants
| frequently to generate more fees. Sometimes, this also
| goes against the interest of the landlord as depending on
| his contract he might need to pay pretty hefty
| readvertising fees.
| mkingston wrote:
| Yeah, the UK rental market is pretty bad.
|
| My understanding is those fees are no longer legal.
|
| https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/tenant-fees-act
|
| See the section near the bottom starting "From 1 June
| 2019, the only payments that landlords or letting agents
| can charge to tenants in relation to new contracts are:"
|
| Anecdotally, it seems these fees have indeed disappeared,
| although few people I know now live in rental
| accommodation in the UK.
| nextos wrote:
| Sure, the fees have disappeared for tenants, but not for
| landlords! I know because I've been renting myself till
| last summer. It's a step in the right direction.
|
| In a place such as Oxford or Cambridge you have tons of
| overseas landlords. Thus, agents are typically extracting
| fees from them by claiming the tenant has left and the
| house needs to be readvertised. But, in reality, the
| tenant wanted to renew the contract. Since they are not
| on-site, let alone managing the property themselves, it's
| easy to trick them.
|
| In other words, agents often have a perverse incentive to
| force a high tenant turnover. Some agents are not like
| this because they are more ethical, or because they
| guarantee a minimum income per calendar month. But, on
| average, it's a very nasty market as you've noted.
| deanclatworthy wrote:
| Finland. Never seen or heard of notice period on a
| "normal" rental less than 6 months. Tenant's usually can
| give 1 month notice. Landlord 6 months.
| jlokier wrote:
| Nope :-)
|
| In France I was given 2 weeks notice, immediately before
| Christmas.
|
| The landlord sold the property I was in without telling
| me, then gave me 2 weeks.
|
| That was difficult as I was booked to fly to the UK in 1
| week.
|
| Finding another place to live at Christmas is difficult.
| Doing everything to process it including moving within 1
| week is difficult. Luckily for me, some Mormon friends
| came to visit, and when I told them my predicament, they
| did everything to help me move my stuff quickly to my new
| temporary place. Good people - thanks guys!
|
| In January I had to find somewhere again, because I
| hadn't been find a suitable long term rental before
| Christmas.
| Nodraak wrote:
| This sounds very illegal. From what I know, in France the
| notice period is 1 month if it is "meuble", or 3 months
| if the appartment is empty.
|
| Edit: actually, I just checked and that's for tenants. If
| the landlord wants to break the contract to sell the
| property, it's 3 months for "meuble", 6 months otherwise.
| guerby wrote:
| Yes it's illegal in France, here is the official
| documentation:
|
| https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F929
|
| 3 to 6 month with certified letter before the sale, and
| can only happen at lease renewal dates (every 3 years).
| loloquwowndueo wrote:
| The landlord has to make the same repairs you would, and still
| turn a profit, at a margin likely higher than a mortgage's
| interest rate. So that nice saved-up vacation money would still
| go away eventually.
|
| For me the nag was about all the thing we wanted to do to the
| house but couldn't because it was a rental.
|
| To each their own I guess - there are fair points for both
| approaches. Do what makes sense financially and keeps you happy
| / less worried :)
| Daho0n wrote:
| >The landlord has to make the same repairs you would, and
| still turn a profit, at a margin likely higher than a
| mortgage's interest rate.
|
| Many (most?) rentals in my area (in Scandinavia) is not for-
| profit and get cheap loans to build. Just like the utility
| company (electricity, heat, water, fiber). You can get
| permission to improve and if it is good for the environment
| you get some of the money back if you move out.
| rcpt wrote:
| They don't have to turn a profit from the rent. Many operate
| at a loss in a bet to build wealth from equity gains.
| amelius wrote:
| So the landlord has to sell the property to make a profit?
| That may not be the best outcome either for the people who
| rent it.
| Supermancho wrote:
| > The landlord has to make the same repairs you would, and
| still turn a profit, at a margin likely higher than a
| mortgage's interest rate
|
| That's unlikely, if the rented space is part of a complex.
| The complex repairs are amortized across all the units. The
| issue is about cost per square footage. Given you don't have
| to pay for the same square footage (not the full lot, only
| the space your unit and parking occupies) it's almost always
| lower.
| atleta wrote:
| But you get to keep the money you'd spend on buying the
| house/apartment which you can then invest into other assets.
| Also, who repairs what is down to agreement. I've always been
| renting (it's not that uncommon here, in Europe, though it is
| less common here, in Hungary) and the agreement was always
| that all repairs that are due to proper usage is to be paid
| for by the landlord but any damage is to be paid for by the
| renter (me).
|
| Now the little repairs that were due during these years (in 3
| different downtown apartments) always went like this: I tell
| the landlord that something needs to be fixed, they tell me
| to call someone (or sometimes they send someone they know)
| and I pay for it, get the invoice which we then deduct from
| the rent next month. No extra profit made on the repairs. You
| can say that it is priced in the rent, but then that's the
| rent (which will be subject to competition). Yes, obviously
| they are looking to make some meaningful return on their
| investment. Whether that's higher than the mortgage's
| interest rate depends a lot on when they actually bought the
| property. But in an equilibrium the two should be pretty
| close because if they start to diverge too much people will
| either stop renting or they will stop buying apartments (and
| do the other).
| petra wrote:
| Even assuming the margin on rent is similar to the interest
| on a mortgage, mortgages end. Renting does not.
|
| So financially, unless the mortgage is much more expensive,
| buying is a better decision.
| atleta wrote:
| Again: you either invest into a realty, that happens to
| be your home, so that you don't have to pay rent, or you
| pay a rent and you invest into something else. You have
| to _always_ consider the opportunity cost before you
| decide which one is a better decision. And it will depend
| on the market.
| eecc wrote:
| Margin on rent is always higher for several reasons: risk
| (the landlord remains hamstrung by a mortgage regardless of
| whether they have a tenant or not), privilege (not everyone
| can afford the downpayment, have good enough income history
| to convince the bank) or convenience (not everyone is
| interested in settling 10-20-30 years and bother with the
| hassle and costs of buying.)
| astrostl wrote:
| Landlord here. This implies perfect pricing, but it's still
| moist robots like me making very imperfect decisions.
| pacman2 wrote:
| Yes, but the landlord does this repairs pre-tax and all the
| repairs are deductible.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| Only against rental income right? Otherwise one could get a
| tax break simply by renting their own house to themselves.
| If just against rental income, then there still isn't a
| difference (they get a tax break because tenants pay rent
| and for the repairs indirectly post tax).
|
| Also, they can't both be pretax and deductible. The former,
| the money never shows up on taxes at all, the latter they
| show up as a subtraction on taxable income.
| pacman2 wrote:
| I am not a tax specialist, nor do we know which country
| we are discussion (EU, US, Australia, like in the post).
|
| But it may make more sense to buy real estate to rent out
| to others and live somewhere else for rent.
|
| If a company holds a few apartments (and getting rid of
| non-paying renters can be tricky in some jurisdictions)
| then you can deduct interest payments, repairs etc.
|
| If you live in your own house I don't know how much you
| can deduct mortgage payments. And if you need a new roof
| then you have to pay for this by your after tax income
| salary. Big difference.
|
| I am eyeing a loft in an EU country. I wish I had the
| money to buy it, renovate it and making loft apartments
| out of it. One I would rent for myself (from my company).
| labawi wrote:
| I still don't understand how would it be cheaper if
| you're paying rent with money that was already taxed -
| deductions would only make sure it's not taxed again.
| Maybe you could avoid paying VAT?
|
| Another situation would be if your company is financing
| the apartment directly with pre-tax money that didn't
| make a round-trip as income, though that's quite a
| different situation than most rentals, and may be a big
| no-no (or may be acceptable in your jurisdiction - no
| idea).
| pacman2 wrote:
| You earn 100k as a wage slave. After 30% Tax 70k. (Random
| numbers). Now you pay for your roof 40k. You have 30k
| left. (Likely your would take a loan but lets ignore this
| now). The bottom line: You pay 30k in taxes and 40k for
| the roof and have 30k left.
|
| Landlord has 100k rental income. To make it simple, he
| has to pay 30% tax too. But he has now another bisness
| expense of 40k for the roof, so he gets only 60k income.
| Not he pays 30% income tax on that, so he has only 42k
| left. But this is 12k more than you because the roof was
| a business expense.
| tkiolp4 wrote:
| Out of curiosity: would you be still renting when you are over
| 70? In my mind the kind of people who never mind owning a house
| is the kind of people who know they will inherit their parents'
| house.
| astrostl wrote:
| I currently own and 100% expect to rent something like a low-
| maintenance condo in a community when older.
| gambiting wrote:
| >>There is always that little nag in the back of your mind
| regarding a house
|
| Do you not have any nagging thoughts about renting though?
| Because I went the exact opposite way. I was always super
| stressed when renting, because I knew that at the end of our
| contract the landlord could tell us to leave. Especially when
| we were on a monthly rolling contract, my stress about this was
| probably 10/10.
|
| Now that we bought a house I sleep well - if anything goes
| wrong I can probably repair it myself, in case of appliances I
| can buy second hand ones cheap or again, try the repair myself
| ...and for things I can't repair myself(ie - boiler) I have
| insurance for. It's about 10x less stressful than renting to
| me.
| Daho0n wrote:
| >because I knew that at the end of our contract the landlord
| could tell us to leave.
|
| Luckily this can't happen in most of the EU. Even if the
| contract say X years you can't throw people out after the
| contract runs out unless you are moving in yourself.
| gambiting wrote:
| Definitely not true in the UK(and wasn't true when we were
| still in the EU) - if the contract comes to an end and the
| landlord doesn't want to extend it then that's it, you have
| to move out. They don't have to give any reason.
| HarryHirsch wrote:
| Ah yes, the assured shorthold tenancy, the default form
| of rental contract in the UK since the mid-1990s. That
| was an attempt to goose the housing market in a stagnant
| economy, together with buy-to-let mortgages. It was
| embarrassing to see the national newspapers promote the
| scheme enthusiatically.
|
| Asset inflation is great when you hold assets, but the
| husing bubble is one of the ways the establishment pulled
| the ladder up from the Millennials and later.
| scandox wrote:
| In Ireland sadly we have a Landlord culture and many
| landlords move people on regularly to ensure they don't get
| any rights or simply get too comfortable.
| mattr47 wrote:
| You have insurance for major appliances ? Or do you mean a
| warranty?
| ggcdn wrote:
| Not op but our mortgage lender offers a "total home
| warranty" for like $8/month which covers appliances and
| systems (hvac, boiler, etc). It's basically appliance
| insurance. And at that price it's a pretty good deal when
| buying a used house.
| gambiting wrote:
| Boiler insurance. PS100 a year, includes a service, if the
| boiler breaks down it will be repaired or replaced. Similar
| thing is available for things like dishwashers and washing
| machines, but I have never seen the need.
| WildGreenLeave wrote:
| I am buying a place in the capital city of my country for this
| exact same reason. I want to travel and be free to do what I
| want, yet I also need a place to live in for the months that
| I'm not away traveling. I could rent something but that would
| be the same price as my mortgage and it will be lost money
| anyway. Instead I picked buying so only a small part (interest)
| is lost, but everything else goes back into my own pocket. So
| even if I'm only spending 50% in my own place it is still
| cheaper then renting.
|
| However, you are talking about things that I don't really have
| to worry about since it is an apartment. So maybe there is a
| slight difference here.
| heipei wrote:
| It's important to realise that you can't compare your rent
| with your mortgage payments without factoring in a lot of
| things. The rent you pay includes things like taxes,
| insurances, upkeep, depreciation, risk and opportunity costs
| that your landlord has to pay while still coming out ahead.
| And he has to deal with all the administrative things too. So
| if you're a homeowner yourself, ask whether you're still
| coming out ahead carrying those costs yourself, plus the risk
| that something around your house breaks, plus the risk that
| your home might lose value for another reason, plus the
| opportunity cost of your down-payment not being invested
| otherwise (e.g. stocks). At the end of the day, it depends on
| the location and how far apart the purchase prices have
| diverged from rents. With the current economic situation and
| low interest rates, house prices where I live have mostly
| broken away from rents so significantly that it doesn't make
| any sense to buy from a financial standpoint.
| WildGreenLeave wrote:
| I've checked your profile and saw you are living in
| Germany, I am living in The Netherlands and buying in
| Amsterdam. I do not know if it is different in Germany so I
| cannot say too much about that. However, regardless of what
| the situation is, in the end the landlord will have to come
| out ahead when you are paying rent. Only by that definition
| it should save you money in the long run when buying your
| own place.
|
| The only argument that can be made is that the money you do
| not spend on your own house is money that could be put into
| a different investment like the stock market. But in NL
| renting a place is roughly as expensive as my monthly
| mortgage payments. So both situations it is money I cannot
| put in the stock market. Insurance and heating is being
| added on top of those monthly payments regardless of the
| option you pick.
| ido wrote:
| In Berlin your rent will most surely be less than
| mortgage payment unless you take a very very long
| mortgage (like 50 years). Plus you need a down payment.
|
| The reason it makes sense for landlords is that they have
| nothing else to do with the money if interest rate is
| zero or close to it - the alternative is slowly losing it
| (or higher risk stuff like stocks).
|
| So they slowly build equity while not profiting every
| month, counting on prices continuing to rise for their
| long-term profit and if they run several properties you
| can get economies of scale going for managing them.
| VBprogrammer wrote:
| On a month to month outgoing basis I can imagine you
| might be correct that renting works out cheaper in some
| cases.
|
| However, it's missing something I think is important. In
| my case we have a PS335k home at 1.6% interest which
| means every year we pay PS5000 in interest, but we paying
| off around PS15000 of the principal on the loan. After 10
| years we could sell the house, spend the PS150k+
| (assuming the home value stays the same) we've paid off
| on a sailing boat and head off around the world or
| whatever takes our fancy.
|
| If we'd have rented we might have been able to save maybe
| PS200 a month in outgoings. Even invested in index funds
| it's unlikely to come close.
| bearbawl wrote:
| It doesn't work like that.
|
| You certainly paid a tax when you bought your home. I
| don't know how it's called or how much is it in your
| area, but you have to add that to the cost of what you
| bought, or deduce it from what you will sell (assuming
| the home value stays the same).
|
| Then you also have to deduce all the real estate yearly
| taxes. And then all the costs associated with the real
| estate property itself (the ones you wouldn't have to pay
| as a renter). Then you'll have to deduce the real estate
| agency fees.
|
| Then and only then you can start making some comparisons
| between buying and renting.
| VBprogrammer wrote:
| In the UK there is stamp duty which you pay when you buy
| a house. First time buyers though get a pretty good deal,
| nothing on up to PS250k, I think we paid around PS2000.
|
| However, there aren't property taxes which you wouldn't
| need to pay as a renter. The closest thing to my
| knowledge is council tax but that is the same whether you
| buy or rent.
|
| On the other hand, I've spent hundreds of pounds on
| rental contracts, referral fees, unfair deposit
| deductions etc.
| ido wrote:
| The situation in the UK is different than Germany - there
| are a lot less tenants protections & a lot less rent
| control (almost every renter in Germany is enjoying some
| sort of rent control - at the very least the landlords
| can't easily raise rent on an existing tenant and can't
| easily end the contract - which is by default unlimited
| in duration).
|
| Rent is kept artificially low & safe in Germany via
| legislation, where as purchasing happens on the free
| market.
|
| Also culturally Germans are very fiscally conservative
| and risk averse, it is not as common to take up debt
| (=mortgage) as in the UK or the US.
| SanFranManDan wrote:
| Housing prices change. Rent prices change. Here in SoCal
| I was going to buy a place but the pandemic hit so we
| decided to rent.
|
| Our rent payment is about half what we would pay if we
| bought. Just look at the last two places I rented: Rent1:
| $2500/mo Condo next door: $850k. That's 4K mortgage and
| 1k HoA.
|
| Rent2: $4100 Equivalent mortgage: $10k/mo
|
| Doesn't make sense to buy unless you are speculating on
| housing prices.
| pureliquidhw wrote:
| Housing prices don't change (much) after you buy. Rent is
| at the mercy of your landlord and the market. Here in
| metro Milwaukee rents are up 30% since I bought a house,
| but my mortgage/taxes/insurance is up 1% (I pay $18/mo
| more now in taxes).
|
| My home value has skyrocketed as well, but so has every
| other home. However, the growth cancels out, I get my
| home's growth as a sort of discount were I to sell and
| buy another home. It's called the housing ladder and is
| key to preserving wealth as your housing needs change and
| the market gets more expensive.
|
| Your example works in shorter time frames, buying vs
| renting in a given year or 3. But over the long haul I've
| only regretted thinking like that in my 20s and not just
| snatching up a home and land.
|
| It's easier to make a person who will need a house than
| it is to build a house, and it's extremely difficult to
| make more land to put a house on.
|
| Edit: grammar/clarity
| bearbawl wrote:
| << in the end the landlord will have to come out ahead
| when you are paying rent >> is way too simplistic I'm
| afraid. He doesn't have to << come ahead >>, or at least
| not in the way you think he has to.
|
| You don't know how your landlord got the property you're
| renting. He may purely and simply never bought it. Or he
| bought it when it was costing nothing for him, or on the
| reverse a lot which prevents him to sell. Or selling it
| would generate massive tax for him. Or it is a
| diversification strategy. Etc.
|
| And to say << renting is roughly as expensive as my
| mortgage payment >> to justify to buy is a very common
| and very bad argument that is built on a misconception of
| what is at stake.
|
| When you buy a property, being a flat or a house, you
| have costs associated with it. A lot of them. Costs
| associated with the purchase and costs associated with
| the property.
|
| First of all, you'll have to pay some sort of one-off
| real estate tax when you buy. Then you will pay all the
| interests of your bank credit (which are higher the
| longer is your credit). Then you will pay all on the on-
| going real estate taxes. Then you will pay all the costs
| of the property itself (all the on-going things a renter
| do not have to pay, all the big 5-10 years maintenance
| tasks like frontage restauration).
|
| So renting is bad only if it is costing more than all
| those costs during the period, minus the real estate
| price increase during the period.
|
| I don't know where you live but in a lot of big cities,
| it is actually way way cheaper to rent than to buy.
|
| The truth is most people do not really look at the proper
| numbers when they want to justify to buy a property
| because there is a lot more involved in being the owner
| of the place than what people want to admit.
| WildGreenLeave wrote:
| I do get the feeling that NL/Amsterdam is one of the few
| exceptions to everything you are saying. I am aware of
| all the costs but 3 key things to note here: 1) I am not
| paying the real estate tax for this apartment. (This is a
| coulance thing from the Dutch government and is only
| available till the first of april for houses above 400k
| EU.) 2) The rents in Amsterdam are roughly the same as my
| mortgage. The interest rates are at an all time low at
| 1.4% for 20 years. 3) Interest rates can be deducted from
| my income so I don't have to pay tax over it (either 36%
| or 49%). While rent cannot be deducted.
|
| To give you an idea about numbers. My mortgage is around
| 440k with a monthly payment of +/- 1500eu (includes
| interest). For the same apartment a 1500eu rent a month
| isn't unheard of. On top of this you have to pay for
| electricity and heating yourself and the insurance. When
| renting the additional tax (e.g. waste or sewer) is also
| added on top of the monthly payment regardless of buying
| or renting. The only thing that you have to pay when
| buying is when things break down, or the so called 'VvE'
| which is an organisation maintaining the building itself.
|
| So yes I do agree with the statement that it cannot
| easily be compared, but in the situation of The
| Netherlands I feel like this is the right choice to make.
|
| Edit: Although, if you (or anyone) disagrees with it I am
| curious to know why.
| bearbawl wrote:
| I am not disagreeing with you. I don't know all the
| numbers for your case and I don't want to compute
| everything for your specific scenario.
|
| But I'm just saying that there is a general assumption in
| most discussions around buying versus renting that buying
| is always better. It's not.
|
| It's the general argument << when you buy you don't throw
| your money out the window >>.
|
| In reality you do throw money out the window when you
| buy, only differently, and I'm highlighting the numbers
| people usually do not take into account when they make
| their comparison.
|
| Comparing mortgage payments and rents is usually not the
| good way to do that, because the costs when you buy are
| only partially monthly based.
|
| One other number I didn't mention above: real estate
| agency fees.
| ryandrake wrote:
| Another thing to consider: You should not compare to your
| entire mortgage payment--only to the interest portion of
| the payment. The principal portion of the payment is not
| an expense: It goes from one of your pockets to the other
| because it is your own home equity. Also you need to
| apply any tax advantage you get from mortgage interest(in
| the USA it's deductible), so subtract your effective tax
| rate. You also need to add to that your estimated
| property taxes / 12 (and that's often tax deductible),
| and add any expected yearly expenses / 12.
|
| So mortgage_interest * (1-T) + property_taxes/12 * (1-T)
| + home_expenses/12. Compare that to rent payment.
| ant6n wrote:
| What about using it as a vacation rebtal while away. There
| are probably companies that take care of the details.
| Personal stuff could be locked away somewhere.
| [deleted]
| EdwardDiego wrote:
| How is your security of tenure renting where you are?
|
| Sadly in my country, our rental laws are still firmly stuck in
| the "quarter-acre" dream of the 1960s, where renting was only
| something you did at university before shortly buying your
| first house with a tiny deposit and a Government backed home
| loan.
|
| These days as house prices rocket, only now are changes being
| made to tenancy laws to give tenants some more security. Back
| in my renting days, I had to move 4 times in 5 years because
| the landlord wanted to move in, or they sold it, or the farm my
| cottage was on had been sold and the new owner wanted it for
| workers, etc.
|
| So here, at least, owning removed a significant amount of
| stress for me - I know I'll still be living here in 5 years, I
| haven't been able to say that until now.
| hmhhcycbtsc557 wrote:
| I'd love to know what these nomadic folks do for friends and
| socialisation. I think I'd find it exceedingly lonely to uproot
| myself from urban civilisation (that includes the case of living
| in a new city every few month).
| unnouinceput wrote:
| Second picture from his camping trip should fully answer "what
| these nomadic folks do".
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| There are certainly areas you can go where lots of other nomads
| go (and then hang out with them). Quartzite, Arizona in the
| U.S. is the obvious example. I understand that, from there, you
| can caravan off with a group of like-minded nomads to the next
| destination.
| forgotmypw17 wrote:
| Accessibility link for noJSers who still want to see the images:
| https://archive.is/Xx1WB
|
| I lived out of a minivan and then a larger fan for 2.5 years
| while writing software and loved it.
|
| It was one of the most freeing and enriching experiences of my
| life, and was so much better than living in a stationary
| building.
|
| I traveled all around the country and was still able to remain
| productive. In fact, I was more productive and motivated, because
| my life was actually interesting and different day-to-day.
|
| It was sometimes uncomfortable, especially in the beginning when
| I learned the ropes, but nothing too bad. (This is in the U.S.,
| where it's safe to do in majority of places.)
|
| In my gradual cutting of monthly upkeep expenditures I had to
| give it up in favor of more detached living, but it was great,
| and I would do it again if I didn't have to do paid work to
| accomplish it.
| SamuelAdams wrote:
| So, something that always seems to be missing from these blog
| posts: what do you do about showering / bathroom? What happens
| when it gets into cold wintery weather?
| ghuntley wrote:
| I'll blog about this next. Add yourself to the newsletter at
| https://ghuntley.com/signup to get it in your inbox.
| forgotmypw17 wrote:
| i signed up for your newsletter and look forward to your
| post eagerly.
| forgotmypw17 wrote:
| for bathrooms, i can usually find one. for showering, i used
| to find them too... but more recently showers are just
| something i gave up. i live indoors atm and i have access to
| a shower pretty much 24/7, and i,m just not interested.
|
| i don,t think it is missing, it is one of the most frequently
| asked questions, and also one of the most frequently
| answered.
| Frypa wrote:
| Could you please share your monthly expenses. I found this
| fascinating.
| villasv wrote:
| Completely off-topic, but I find it weird when someone is making
| a comment on the warmth of a community says things like "Love was
| free and it was custom to hug everyone". So it was normal, then?
|
| It probably has something to do with being born in Brazil/RJ,
| where hugging everyone is the norm.
| ulucs wrote:
| I think frowning upon physical contact is a British custom that
| spread far because of all the imperialism. It's really weird
| how people avoid close contact, something a human body needs.
| Wildgoose wrote:
| We traditionally shake hands when we greet - that's physical
| contact. Whereas East Asians typically bow and make no
| physical contact at all. So your comment simply isn't true
| and doesn't really make much sense. (I haven't downvoted you
| by the way).
| max_ wrote:
| Could someone explain to me why/how divorce ends up delivering
| such fate?
|
| Do these citizens in these countries think these laws around
| divorce are fair?
| kleinsch wrote:
| From the article: "the cost of housing in Sydney, Australia and
| sole-income was a leading factor in the dissolution of the
| relationship"
|
| Whatever opinions you have about divorce law aside, it's a
| simple fact that if housing was already a difficult expense, it
| gets much harder when one family becomes two.
| agumonkey wrote:
| Same as people owning a property .. messy split up, probably
| selling the previous 'house' and having to find a safe spot
| somewhere. The van part doesn't seem the main factor.
| nvahalik wrote:
| This is a complicated topic. Marriages dissolve for many
| reasons. In general, though, western society has embraced a
| view of marriage that combining view with a coupling view. No
| longer are married people "as one" but rather a couple mutually
| supporting each other.
|
| While this doesn't seem like a difference, it has major
| implications in pretty much all aspects of life.
| lucaspanjaard wrote:
| Can you tell us more about the combination of van life and
| raising children?
| wombatmobile wrote:
| I've been thinking about working from a van. The main thing I'm
| undecided about is whether satellite internet would work out?
|
| I've read mixed reviews on whirlpool and other forums.
|
| I understand minimum latency is 650ms. What's that like for
| videoconferencing?
|
| Presumably I'd need an articulated dish so I can recalibrate
| every time I stop. Anyone had any experience with those? They
| cost about $2000. Can they be secured, or are they likely to be
| ripped off from time to time?
| zlsa wrote:
| Starlink[0] is made for you. It's a constellation in low-earth
| orbit, so latency is far lower than 650ms (current users are
| getting around of 30-60ms.) The current iteration must stay
| within the "cell" it's assigned to, which is only a few miles
| wide. But in the future, there will be a version available
| that'll work almost anywhere in the world.
|
| [0]: https://www.starlink.com/
| brudgers wrote:
| Try tethering a cell phone first. It's the simplest thing that
| might work. You will always be solving problems as they come
| up. And they won't be what you thought was critical before you
| left.
| TaylorAlexander wrote:
| Certainly the thing to use in the near future would be
| starlink. 50-150 mbps and <100ms ping. Right now they're only
| advertising their service for fixed locations, but if you park
| the van in one place for a while it might work out just fine.
|
| We use Viasat at our farm and it's acceptable but kind of slow
| and has a long ping. I'm really itching to get starlink which
| they've projected will be available at our place later this
| year.
| wombatmobile wrote:
| So it's possible to videoconference with viasat's long ping?
| Unpleasant, or unusable?
| TaylorAlexander wrote:
| Yep it's possible. We have two connections - viasat and a
| fixed hilltop wireless and I can't remember which one was
| active when I last had a video call, but my partner has
| video calls daily and I know he's done it when that
| connection was active. But I can't recall how pleasant it
| is.
| mkingston wrote:
| Depends how remote you want to be. Your username suggests
| you're not living in Western Europe. But a (directional,
| especially) 4g antenna outside your vehicle can still go quite
| a long way, compared to cell phone tethering. You'll probably
| have to buy a 4g router also. I guess the lot would set you
| back less than AUD200.
| jbarches wrote:
| A router may be ~200, but I imagine monthly plans for
| unlimited are over 100/month from a traditional cell
| provider.
|
| This seems very expensive. How do you set up the monthly plan
| more efficiently?
| ant6n wrote:
| Trying to get a 100$ bill down to 50$ seems like premature
| optimization on van life.
| mkingston wrote:
| I can't answer that, I'm afraid, I know very little of the
| Australian context, only estimated a router/antenna price
| based on a slightly conservative conversion of the price
| where I live.
| yurishimo wrote:
| You might look into the new Space X satellite internet. Right
| now they're geo fenced to an area but if you move once every
| few months, it might be feasible to change your service
| address.
| dis-sys wrote:
| Thanks to the pandemic and the hot money dumped into the market
| under the name of helping the economy, Sydney property prices is
| going up again. For me, it is simply criminal to drive the
| property prices further up after 8 years nonstop growth.
| jstanley wrote:
| > every two years that goes by at a company you don't like (or
| unemployed) is wasting 2% of your working life.
|
| Can someone explain this? Is OP suggesting that the typical
| working life is 100 years?
| rdiddly wrote:
| Yeah, it's wrong. 2 years out of let's say 40 would be 5%. 2/50
| is 4%.
|
| Also 8 hrs is closer to half one's waking hours so that's
| either another math error, or a mistaken inclusion of the word
| "waking" (actually he used "awake"), or he works part-time.
| knuthsat wrote:
| Depends on how much time (in hours) you spend working. 2 years
| is maybe 1 year of working time.
| godDLL wrote:
| 1/50 is 2% math
| atleta wrote:
| Not too many people work for 50 years. Also, the post said
| every _two_ years: "every two years that goes by at a
| company you don't like".
| atleta wrote:
| It was ambiguous, but he compared the wasted time (time wasted
| _at work_ while working for a bad company) to the total time
| you have in your working life. He says you spend 21%-35% of
| your time at work, so during that 2 years you 'd spend .42-0.7
| years working. And if you calculate with 40 years of work life,
| then it comes to about 2% of that time.
| rdiddly wrote:
| That might be what happened. The reason it's unsound is, the
| numerator is in actual time spent at work and the denominator
| is in total elapsed time including non-work.
| CodeGlitch wrote:
| I've never understood using vans over caravans. With a van if it
| breaks down you are pretty stuffed as all of your kit is in it.
| Plus if you have to make trips into a city/town you are wasting
| fuel carting all that stuff around, and the risk of theft would
| make me nervous.
|
| Caravans don't have any of those downsides, but I guess people
| make it work?
| betwixthewires wrote:
| As someone who lives how you say OP should, caravans do have
| downsides. They're not usually made very well and if you're
| traveling a lot they're not well suited to it. If you're moving
| to a new place every few months or something they're alright.
| If you're moving every 2 weeks or few days, a van is where it's
| at. There are different ways to live a nomadic type of life and
| vans are more suited to a more extreme nomadic life than
| caravans.
| sammyq wrote:
| Where do you leave your caravan when traveling into town,
| wouldn't leaving it make it more susceptible to theft?
| knocte wrote:
| Exactly. On top of that, you have to find specific places
| where it's allowed to park them. However, you can park a van
| anywhere.
| CodeGlitch wrote:
| I would say the risk of theft is far lower out in the country
| side.
| postit wrote:
| I don't understand the reason why but it seems a constant that
| the majority of tech workers are the sole income for the house.
| Maybe I'm more exposed to H1B workers in US, but that holds even
| in other places.
| michaelt wrote:
| It's common enough in other professions _that make six figure
| salaries_.
|
| And if you're in tech, you probably know more people in tech
| than you know accountants/doctors/lawyers/chemical
| engineers/business owners.
| johndoe42377 wrote:
| Why do difficult? $500/mo buys you a room, wi-fi and home made
| food almost everywhere in developing countries.
|
| Working from home is a long sought boost for everyone. Places
| like Sikkim, or Ladakh, unspoiled parts of Nepal and Sri Lanka
| are ideal for remote work.
|
| The problem is that there is no demand.
| akudha wrote:
| One thing westerners don't realize when they move to places
| like SriLanka is that they end up increasing the local prices.
| This happens in the US too, when Californians move to Texas and
| start paying more for properties (or rent). It is hard enough
| for people in developing countries to compete without
| foreigners moving in - with them, it becomes impossible.
| aww_dang wrote:
| There's also employment generated from the services consumed.
| USD shortages and other problems are similarly ignored.
|
| This is a zero-sum view. I've recently observed it becoming
| more popular online. True to form, the simple take misses all
| of the nuance.
|
| On one hand there are people decrying the horrible conditions
| for housekeepers sending remittance from the Gulf. On the
| other there are economically troublesome analyses like the
| above.
| paganel wrote:
| This already happens in a way in my country, you've got all
| these people who have emigrated for better wages and who are
| using the money they earned in those other countries to buy
| real estate at home. This is kind of shitty for the people
| that did not choose to emigrate, because on top of the shitty
| local wages they have to contend with rising real estate
| prices, too.
| geocrasher wrote:
| Demand isn't the main problem- it's that if you live in such a
| place, most employers will want to pay you according to local
| wages. The idea of taking a job in the US overseas and the
| exploiting the economic difference sounds good on paper, but
| I've seen companies attempt to adjust income accordingly.
| BEEdwards wrote:
| Just lie.
|
| Use a friends address...
| xgbi wrote:
| << Why is is nighttime on your cam? It's 1PM?! >>
| [deleted]
| ekianjo wrote:
| Use virtual backgrounds
| robjan wrote:
| Most companies don't allow fully remote or remote in different
| time zones. If they did, they could just outsource all the work
| to nationals of lower cost of living countries.
| adav wrote:
| The author wanted to be nearby his children in Sydney, one of
| the most expensive cities in the world.
| SeeManDo wrote:
| It all comes down to having a decent place to eat, use the
| restroom and sleep. After that the only necessity is electricity
| and internet.
| SeeManDo wrote:
| Everything else (marriage, kids) are luxury items.
| moocowtruck wrote:
| Thank you for writing this I really enjoyed it, read the whole
| damn thing! I am happy for you and it helps put things in
| perspective for me. I look forward to reading more in the future
| from you
| Xophmeister wrote:
| The idea of living in a converted van has certainly appealed to
| me many times. However, vehicles need maintenance and
| consumables, to the point that their natural life is quite short
| compared to a building (which also needs maintenance and
| consumables). Is the "freedom" that the mobility buys you worth
| it over, say, 10 years; at which point, your van is nearing the
| end of its life? A middle ground might be a boat, but I am aware
| of the adage: "The two happiest days of a boat owner's life are
| the day he buys a boat and the day he sells it!"
| thaeli wrote:
| 10 years is far from end of life for a vanlife conversion. Many
| conversions start with something older than that. Boats are in
| water, so they have a lot more wear and tear. If you stay out
| of the road salt states, it's normal to see 40 year old camper
| vans still in daily use.
|
| The real limiting factor is when the furnishings, flooring,
| cabinets, appliances, all that stuff wears out. Manufactured
| housing in general has this 20 to 40 year depreciation, because
| we don't pretend as a society that they're an appreciating
| asset. Its ridiculous that we treat stick built houses (as
| opposed to the land they are built on) that way; houses have
| major maintenance costs over time as well. It's just easier
| with manufactured housing of any type to, instead of: new roof,
| new HVAC, a kitchen renovation, new flooring, etc etc, just..
| defer maintenance on those items as practical and then replace
| the whole thing or do a major midlife overhaul. (The latter
| does require a "home base", so doing vanlife long term does
| require finding places to settle down occasionally - this
| lifestyle is much easier for people who have families and/or
| friends with single family detached homes in suburban or rural
| areas they can crash with sometimes.)
| scrappyjoe wrote:
| One thing I've struggled to get right is building the right
| workspace inside a van.
|
| At the moment I just sit on the bench seat with my laptop on my
| lap, but it's slowly taking its toll on my posture.
|
| Any advice?
| [deleted]
| mkingston wrote:
| Others have mentioned an external screen. I have two
| ThinkVision M14 monitors (selected for USB C power + data on a
| single cable, and high brightness) and some tablet holders that
| mount on a range of different 1/4in tripod mounting hardware.
| Look for tripod clamp stands, gooseneck arms, swivel heads.
| There's a lot out there, you'll figure out something that works
| for you. If you want a larger monitor, a VESA mount is what you
| want. There's various mounting hardware available for this
| also.
|
| In the interim, try to put a pillow on your lap, and your
| laptop on the pillow. Try to tense your core a little in
| general, and especially if you feel discomfort in your back.
| You'll probably need to maintain the tension for a little
| while. I find this avoids or alleviates my discomfort- but is
| probably not a _good_ solution.
| meowster wrote:
| > laptop on the pillow
|
| This is terrible for the thermals. You should never put a
| laptop on a surface that restricts airflow between the
| surface and the laptop.
| mkingston wrote:
| For sure it's bad for the laptop, I totally agree, and if
| you have something better to put your laptop on (a small
| table that goes over your lap, for example- I believe Ikea
| sells such a thing) do that. But given the choice between
| pillow and no pillow, I'd rather damage my laptop than my
| body.
| Jon_Lowtek wrote:
| https://oshwiki.eu/wiki/Ergonomics_in_Office_Work#Ergonomics...
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| Are you able to stand in the van? If not, that's going to be
| problematic, I think.
| fy20 wrote:
| Getting a monitor would probably help, at least you won't be
| bending your neck down all the time to see the screen. I've
| seen some vans that have swivel mounts, but you could also hook
| it up when in use, and take it down afterwards.
| riekus wrote:
| I have lived in Sydney (manly) in 2020, it is a beautiful city,
| but indeed crazy expensive. I have left to the outback to save
| money and kickstart the nomadic life. I really hope I will be
| able to return to australia when I am older to do exactly this.
| There is a big community of (mostly older and retired) people
| roaming australia with camper/caravan. To me, it would be the
| ultimate life.
|
| To the OP, please come and visit Hopetoun VIC, free camping at
| the lake, you would love it here
| chrisrickard wrote:
| I envy you Geoff (as you know!), and my plan is to do the same
| later this year.
|
| I'm not sure how my wife and I will go long term, but living in
| campervan has always been a dream - so only one way to find out!
| :)
| jspash wrote:
| If this sort of thing interests you, watch Nomadland
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomadland_(film)
|
| It's about people in American with similar situations who decide
| to go off grid. And like the OP are a bit older, not necessarily
| the hippie type.
|
| The movie is quite stark and realistic. A mix of documentary and
| drama. And it starts Frances McDormand from Three Billboards, who
| is excellent in it.
|
| That said, this lifestyle has absolutely no appeal to me. What do
| you do when you get older? I mean much older? Is a 70 year going
| to be lugging propane tanks around and doing odd jobs for food?
| There needs to be _some_ sort of plan, doesn 't there?
| wombatmobile wrote:
| > Is a 70 year going to be lugging propane tanks around and
| doing odd jobs for food?
|
| Good question. That's a thing. People have this grey nomad
| ideal and when they reach that age they sell up everything and
| buy a big rig, only to find that at age 70, it's difficult to
| drive such a thing. Particularly if they've never reversed a
| trailer before.
|
| This is why you can buy second hand rigs that are 12 months old
| that are hardly used, cheap.
| zemvpferreira wrote:
| While I don't think you're wrong on average about the physical
| abilities of senior people these days, consider that anyone who
| is forced to do a reasonable amount of manual labor as they age
| will age a lot a slower than if they were sedentary.
|
| My dad has been 100% sedentary since his 60s. He's now 71 with
| the mobility of a 90 year old. His father was a military man
| who kept a strict exercise routine till his 80s. He looked (and
| performed like) 55 at 75. Designing a lifestyle that forces you
| to move and lift heavy things is a really good idea.
| Veen wrote:
| There is definitely a benefit to keeping up an exercise
| regime, but people who work manual labor jobs throughout
| their career frequently suffer from severe joint pain, back
| pain, and other other unpleasant consequences as they age.
| Many of my father's friends were physically destroyed and
| living with chronic pain by the time they reached their
| early-50s.
| agumonkey wrote:
| It's all about balance, sitting is deadly, overwork in bad
| conditions is deadly
|
| both are good when done properly
| zemvpferreira wrote:
| Absolutely, hard manual labour 8 hours/day for 40 years
| will wreck anyone worse than the same time at a desk job.
| What is needed is a gentler average through our whole life.
| BruceBlacklaws wrote:
| What happens if you have an accident?
|
| I can imagine this going really wrong
| TheSmiddy wrote:
| What happens if a nearby tree falls on your stationary house?
| villasv wrote:
| Local firefighters and an ambulance will come and arrive
| quickly? I think that's exactly the point of the question.
| BruceBlacklaws wrote:
| I'm sure they will but that won't help much and it's even
| worse considering your entire office had an accident too
| BruceBlacklaws wrote:
| Really?
| varispeed wrote:
| The problem is that big corporations are raking in the billions
| whilst at the same time paying unrealistic salaries. Plus, in
| many western countries employees pay enormous taxes on top of
| that. The system is rigged towards the rich - their companies
| don't pay the same taxes an average Joe company pays and they can
| afford creative accounting to keep much more of what they make
| than me and you. This has to change! I am sick and tired when
| next politician claims they'll rise the tax for the rich, and
| then it turns out me and you have to pay even more whereas your
| CEO laughs and buys another Bentley.
| fakedang wrote:
| I always roll my eyes whenever another hard-left politician
| such as AOC or Corbyn comes over and does the whole big talk
| about how corporations ought to be taxed fairly and all. And
| later, when they are in power, they call for actions such as
| (favorable) censorship and what not, while doing zero about big
| corporations because it's easier to control (and pander to) one
| big entity than multiple single entities. As long as corporate
| entities are allowed to donate to political parties, and as
| long as fundraising remains some kind of race in the eyes of
| the media, expect this nonsense to continue.
|
| Politicians don't care about taxing corporations that they
| like. You'll see them do the whole dance against Big Oil or
| Walmart or whatever, but when it comes to Big Tech, boy do they
| love their Apple toys and Google Internet.
| simonbarker87 wrote:
| I lived in a van for a winter a couple of years back outside the
| company I then owned while weekly-ish commuting to my new home a
| couple of hundred miles away. While I didn't have the isolation
| that OP can have (we ran a small factory and staff) it was
| freeing to be unshackled from a stationary home and to move about
| freely, looking back I'm bit sure I took full advantage of that
| period but I did enjoy it.
|
| Perhaps I will try it again in a few years with my wife this
| time.
| codesternews wrote:
| How did you take bath and clean your self. Where did you go for
| piss etc?
| simonbarker87 wrote:
| Gym membership at a hotel gym round the corner, showered
| after my evening gym session, camping loo in the van if no
| alternative
| bigmattystyles wrote:
| Glad the person landed on their feet. Can't help but think this
| could have been titled 'from a van down by the river'
|
| https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xv2VIEY9-A8
| tonyedgecombe wrote:
| _Glad the person landed on their feet._
|
| I'm not sure they did, their situation looks precarious to me.
| xXReadmeXx wrote:
| Right? That blog took a really weird turn- and so do these
| comments.
| forgotmypw17 wrote:
| I can guess which video it is, and perhaps there is some truth
| to it, but it's quite one-dimensional, and taking it at face
| value is like buying into the stereotypes overweight nerd with
| Cheetos stains image of sysadmin or inept socially challenged
| software developer.
|
| This lifestyle is incredible and life-changing, and shouldn't
| be discounted by anyone who's looking for a change.
| Xavdidtheshadow wrote:
| I did a similar thing (full time van living while doing full time
| software development, but in the US) for ~ 6 months until the
| pandemic cut the trip short. Depending on the build of your van,
| you will have differing levels of reliance on public resources.
| Unfortunately, our van was built around urban living - showering
| in gyms, working in coffee shops, etc.
|
| In normal life, I think that's a much _simpler_ approach than
| being out in the forest. We were never far from a water source or
| a hardware store in case of emergency, which came in handy more
| than once.
|
| I hope it continues to work out for them!
| harlanji wrote:
| I'm on day 1,002 in my Civic, the last stop before a tent. With
| showers and the library and people not afraid of each other it
| was pretty good and I questioned why I paid $1,850/mo for
| 350sqft for so long. I camp 10 blocks from there. Hope it's
| normal soon. Going on a year without a shower. Nobody I know
| will put me in a hotel and decreasing few will talk to me. I
| need to get my shit together, apparently. I was waking up at
| 3am to sponge bath myself when I worked retail--was not enough.
| "At least we're not in Africa" -a diverse boss from my
| Engineering days.
| mym1990 wrote:
| Second this and also willing to chip in. I'm not sure where
| you are but I know in the US it is fairly common for gas
| station truck stops to have shower facilities as well!
| forgotmypw17 wrote:
| Hang in there. You're a good person, and you are enough just
| the way you are. You don't need anyone's approval to exist.
|
| If you are in East Coast U.S., I may be able to find you a
| shower.
| m_kos wrote:
| Do you know how much a monthly gym membership near you costs?
| If money is an issue, I could chip in via paypal or venmo.
| (Just a grad student with kids here, so don't expect too
| much, please.)
| idlewords wrote:
| Matt Foley was a prophet.
| SommaRaikkonen wrote:
| Glad to hear it's working out for you on the work front Geoffrey.
| Do you have any concerns about long-term plans living in the van?
|
| Also, any cool stories to tell about power maintenance? I see you
| have giant solar panels but wonder if they're enough for your
| daily workload - do you have enough power at night?
|
| Sorry if you've answered these questions before, I'm new to your
| blog!
| mkingston wrote:
| Not OP. The van in the article appears to have ~800W of solar
| on the roof. Depending on preference, lighting requirements can
| be ~5-30W, laptop requirements ~20-150W. If heating and cooking
| needs are met with natural gas (the most common solution- and I
| can see a gas pizza oven in the article). Making some
| assumptions:
|
| * the solar panels deliver average ~200W for 8hrs per day,
| 1.6kWh total
|
| * OP has average 50W power draw while working, 8hrs per day,
| 0.4kWh total
|
| * OP has lighting requirements of ~20W, 4hrs per day, ~0.1kWh
|
| I guess he's probably fairly comfortably net positive for
| electrical power. In my experience the solar panel estimate is
| reasonably conservative, although I've experienced some
| extended periods of very bad weather where my panels produce
| less than 5% of their rated maximum (in the UK- not Aus!).
| codesternews wrote:
| Why do you love vanlife? Why you are living like this? Sorry
| just curious want to know your point of view
| mkingston wrote:
| Well, it's working for me right now. I've been in the van
| for a little over six months now and have a planned rough
| end date around mid next-year, so it's somewhere between
| living and long-term traveling.
|
| I'm not much of a city dweller. It's not that I hate
| cities, they have their charms, it's mostly just that the
| things I most enjoy don't exist in them. My job is
| reasonably flexible and living in a van allows me to be
| closer to the things I love to do: skiing, climbing,
| running/hiking (off road), especially. Typically I'll do
| one of those for 2-4 hours per work day, and much of the
| weekend. Because I guess you may wonder: I find this makes
| me happier and gives me more motivation in general, which,
| anecdotally, has a positive impact on my work.
|
| A little more background: I work an average of 40hrs/wk; I
| have no children; minimal financial responsibilities; I
| live in the van with my partner, who works ~20hrs/wk, also
| remotely.
| b0tzzzzzzman wrote:
| Can you add perspective to how you live or why this seems
| out of scope from how we 'live'.
| mkingston wrote:
| I don't understand what you mean by out of scope.
|
| I basically travel from activity to activity. Right now
| I'm skiing. As the snow recedes, I intend to take some
| time learning to paraglide. Then climbing season will
| begin. Circumstances permitting, I'm hoping to spend time
| in Scotland and Norway (in particular) over the spring
| and summer months, perhaps
| Greece/Corsica/Sardinia/Spain/Italy (unsure) before
| winter, then likely the Alps somewhere.
| knocte wrote:
| Van-life with no bed in the van? or it's not clear from the
| pics...
| latchkey wrote:
| My primary home is a campervan (Promaster 2500). I travel to
| places and then I rent a house or apartment for a few months to
| bring some stability to my life. Then I move onto the next place.
| It is lovely. I can't think of any other way to live.
| mym1990 wrote:
| How long have you been doing this?
| latchkey wrote:
| About 6 months now. I got stuck in the US, so I decided to do
| something different instead of just couch surfing at friends
| houses. Bought a campervan that was already mostly fitted
| out, did the rest myself.
|
| Prior to that, I spent 2 years on a motorbike living out of
| hotels and rentals all over Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos.
|
| I am lucky to have a job and a life that was already remote.
| b0tzzzzzzman wrote:
| Often statment, articles, glanced over reads are dismissed. I
| have seen several similar things today which are heavily
| commented on and shills repeate the mantra .. Poor millennial
| forced to live in van, or tiny house. This was a nice change from
| that.
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