[HN Gopher] In Defense of Dumb TVs
___________________________________________________________________
In Defense of Dumb TVs
Author : rbanffy
Score : 410 points
Date : 2021-02-26 10:05 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (frame.work)
(TXT) w3m dump (frame.work)
| KirillPanov wrote:
| RCA makes a truly-100%-dumb 4k@60hz 43" screen that's actually
| quite good -- model RTU4300.
|
| Regarding Sceptre: if you buy one to use as a monitor _turn down
| the "sharpness" to zero_ or it will look hideously awful. Same
| with the RCA RTU4300.
|
| Unfortunately the sharpness menu is missing from all of their 43"
| and above displays. On those panels you need to go into the
| hidden "service menu" to adjust the sharpness. The procedure is
| different for each model, but you can generally find the secret
| code by googling around:
|
| https://www.avsforum.com/search/1117513/?q=sceptre+service+m...
|
| You'll be amazed how much better text looks.
| [deleted]
| scottmcdot wrote:
| I recently bought a new "LG UN7300 UHD 43" Smart 4K TV with AI
| ThinQ". I will never connect it to WiFi as it is plugged into my
| media PC. I'm hoping this will have some benefit to the resale
| value when mainstream realise the benefits of Smart TV's that
| have not been 'tainted' by firmware updates.
| jeffgreco wrote:
| Vizio's CTO confirmed in 2019 that smart TV data harvesting
| subsidizes their prices:
| https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/7/18172397/airplay-2-homekit...
| chaostheory wrote:
| This is how a 70in TV at $499 is possible
| nuker wrote:
| Lets DD-WRT them
| prepend wrote:
| That's weird how Vizio TVs haven't dropped in price once ads
| started "subsidizing" their prices.
|
| I think he means that without ads they wouldn't make as much so
| they would have to charge more to make the same amount of money
| they would with ads (which is the same they used to make).
| Rebelgecko wrote:
| Not surprising. Every time my Vizio TV downloads an update, it
| "forgets" that I've opted out of all the tracking and phone-
| homeing
| m463 wrote:
| do you get prompted again to opt-in, or does it start
| collecting data until you opt-out again?
| sunstone wrote:
| The best thing about smart TV's is they are cheaper than
| otherwise and you can dumb them by not connecting them to
| wifi/internet. Just add in your own NUC running linux and you
| have the best of both worlds. Get a logitech mx ergo as the
| "remote control" and you're good to go.
| daveFNbuck wrote:
| They're still taking extra time to boot up an OS and using
| electricity to track what you're doing. There have also been
| stories on HN about smart TVs connecting to open wifi to send
| data home.
| [deleted]
| anothernewdude wrote:
| Haven't had an actual TV in years, I have a large HDMI monitor
| attached to a PS4 (aka. netflix machine)
| vidanay wrote:
| Has nobody rooted the firmware for "smart" TV's?
| milofeynman wrote:
| This comes up every time an article like this is posted on HN
| and the answer is basically no.
| pabs3 wrote:
| These folks have:
|
| https://www.samygo.tv/
| mathgladiator wrote:
| Instead of rooting, I wonder if it would be possible to simply
| replace the insides with a raspberry pi or similar thing
| userbinator wrote:
| You can "lobotomise" one with something like
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24877363 which truly
| dumbs it down.
|
| (The referred article seems to have disappeared, but the
| archive saves: http://web.archive.org/web/20190511065920/http
| ://redlightgre... )
| asaph wrote:
| Let's not lose sight of the fact that in the era before smart
| TVs, the revenue model for most TV networks was advertising.
| lambda_obrien wrote:
| Now I pay money to netflix so as to not see those, my tv should
| have nothing to do with it; except that corrupt execs and wall
| street zombies want more more more, so they put ads on
| everything, forcing me to watch their drivel, all supported by
| software developers and electrical engineers who have money
| signs for pupils.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| Just don't connect them to Wi-Fi.
|
| I really hope they don't start trying to auto connect to the
| xfinity ssid...
| mattowen_uk wrote:
| You can tear my dumb 50" Panasonic plasma TV from my cold, dead
| fingers (or when it finally breaks, whichever comes first!)
|
| Also, see my dumb Panasonic projector, again an awesome bit of
| kit.
| vimy wrote:
| Instead of a TV you can buy a 4K monitor and some audio speakers.
| Simple but effective.
| listic wrote:
| TVs come in bigger sizes.
| monkpit wrote:
| Yeah, I used to buy TVs and use them as bigger, cheaper
| monitors. Now it seems like I need to do the opposite... too
| bad it probably costs a hefty chunk of change to get a giant
| monitor!
| acuozzo wrote:
| Cool. Can you hook me up with a hyperlink to a 75-inch computer
| monitor?
| account-5 wrote:
| Im in the market for a dumb TV. My current "smart" TV from
| Samsung is a joke. Slow to start, adverts in the UI. Snapped the
| "smart" remote so no voice stealling nonsense.
|
| Im think a dumb panel connected to either a PC or RPi.
|
| I don't see the point in swapping one tech company for another,
| so Apple and android are out. Dont trust them any mire that
| Samsung.
| petepete wrote:
| I wrote this guide on blocking the UI ads a few years ago.
| These days a PiHole might be more straightforward.
|
| https://gist.github.com/peteryates/b44b70d19ccd52f62d66cdd4b...
| ravenstine wrote:
| Question: Does a smart teevee need to be hooked up to the
| internet? I have a dumb teevee so I genuinely don't know. If not,
| can't one simply not ever give it access to a WiFi network, plug
| in a Chromecast/Firestick/Xbox, and call it good?
| snuxoll wrote:
| There's no way of knowing it won't decide to connect to an
| unsecured network without asking, and some have done just that.
| sjy wrote:
| I don't think I've ever seen a working open wireless network
| (ie. no captive portal) in public, let alone been able to
| access one from my living room. Are they more common in other
| countries?
| sircastor wrote:
| Yes, but it is still running an OS (rather than, for instance,
| an RTOS) there's more that can go wrong, and bugs may require
| updates, which require network access.
|
| That said, I've got many friends who do exactly as you have
| said and never connect it. IIRC, there is some talk about
| including 5G modems in near term models to further encourage
| connection. The data is valuable enough to merit the inclusion.
| lyrrad wrote:
| It's possible. I've had Samsung and LG TVs that I've left
| disconnected most of the time and used them with external boxes
| like the Nvidia Shield, Apple TV, PCs and game consoles.
|
| I've used wired connections or temporary Wifi network in order
| to prevent the TV from connecting to the internet without my
| knowledge.
|
| I was able to update the firmware on my LG TV by downloading it
| and loading it onto a USB drive. Some firmware updates may
| improve picture quality or compatibility with external devices.
|
| One annoyance is that there may be buttons on the remote that
| launch built in internet connected apps. It's important to have
| a TV that can easily switch between inputs.
| ScoobleDoodle wrote:
| I think a better term would be "simple TV". It has one job and
| does it well.
| vincengomes wrote:
| In India, amazon calls it a Standard TV.
| luplex wrote:
| Consumers no longer own their devices. Companies decide which
| code runs on them, and of course they choose code that makes them
| money.
|
| There really is no reason to couple two functions (displaying
| images, selecting and playing content) in a single device. It's
| an antipattern for resilient and serviceable systems.
| colincooke wrote:
| This resonates with me. Recently my Samsung "smart" TV decided
| that after I turned off an input device, the appropriate
| behaviour was to immediately display some garbage "entertainment"
| channel called cheddar. I think it's what is played at gas
| station pumps?
|
| The day that happened is the day my TV lost internet privilages
| (wifi is turned off) and we started just using a chromecast for
| all the "smart" functionalities.
| petepete wrote:
| > Recently my Samsung "smart" TV decided that after I turned
| off an input device, the appropriate behaviour was to
| immediately display some garbage "entertainment" channel called
| cheddar.
|
| This could be the opening line from a near-future dystopian
| novel.
| Zardoz84 wrote:
| I don't use a TV anymore, as I use my pc to watch movies and
| series. But for my mother, on the futures I'm thinking buying a
| cheap big computer screen and plug a chrome cast or something
| similar.
| p1mrx wrote:
| > Incredibly, Samsung even recommends
| (https://www.samsung.com/us/support/tip/TIP00083197/) that you
| run virus and malware checking on your TV regularly.
|
| The linked page does not contain the word "virus" or "malware"
| abrons wrote:
| looks like that page did indeed mention both terms:
| https://web.archive.org/web/20200303012835/https://www.samsu...
|
| now it's a redirect to
| https://www.samsung.com/us/support/answer/ANS00077524/
| Arn_Thor wrote:
| While I let my smart TV connect to the internet for firmware
| update reasons (bug fixes), I'm running my entire home network
| through NextDNS, and before that a PiHole. Not seeing any ads in
| the UI, and I note some attempted logging traffic is blocked.
|
| Before I upgraded to LG last year I had a Samsung and it was
| trying to ping home constantly. It constituted 80% of outbound
| requests denied by the PiHole
| aembleton wrote:
| Out of interest - Why do you use both a PiHole and NextDNS?
|
| I removed my PiHole once I got NextDNS as it just seemed
| redundant.
| toast0 wrote:
| My smart TV will update the firmware via USB. Other than the
| fact that it's a 1.5 GB download [1], it's quick and easy.
|
| [1] There's a couple 4k test videos in the system menu, which I
| guess is some of the hugeness. Seems crazy though.
| sa1 wrote:
| In this arms race, these companies might start shipping with
| their own resolver.
| eternalban wrote:
| It's already mentioned in this thread: built in IoT. There
| are IoT vendors that have roaming agreements worldwide;
| typically you stick these things on containers or other
| mobile assets. They call home whenever they can.
|
| For an actual arms race, we need vendors on the consumer side
| front to create beautiful Faraday Cages for "your" home
| appliances.
| quicksilver03 wrote:
| You can work around this by either setting a fake gateway in
| a static IP configuration, or configuring your DHCP server to
| give a fake gateway to requests coming from the TV's MAC
| address.
|
| By "fake gateway" I mean a non-existing IP on your LAN: that
| way, no outgoing request from the offending MAC address will
| ever get out to the public Internet.
| nuker wrote:
| > work around this by either setting a fake gateway in a
| static IP configuration ...
|
| Take it to backyard and axe it to pieces. Just to be sure.
| ntsplnkv2 wrote:
| > like breaking up the traditional channel bundle and increasing
| access to more personalized and niche content.
|
| Yea this is benefit decreases every day. The "cord-cutting"
| phenomenon is dead. Want to watch a discovery show? Oh great,
| it's only on Discovery plus now, $5 a month. Want to watch
| Premier League soccer? Peacock Premium! Cobra Kai? Netflix...
| marvel? Disney+. Oh but you can't watch THIS nfl game on here
| because it's blacked out locally for TV. Champions League soccer?
| Sign up for CBS All Access. Can't forget HBO Max!
|
| When you add everything up, cable for me was actually cheaper.
| But now I'm screwed, because they aren't putting shows on TV
| channels anymore to get people to sub to their streaming service.
| kevinmchugh wrote:
| If a service has something I want to watch, i sign up for it
| and immediately cancel it. My state has a law that any
| subscription that allows signups online has to allow
| cancellations online, so this is convenient.
|
| Doesn't work well for sports, admittedly.
| gigatexal wrote:
| We've a LG C9 OLED TV purchased in late 2019. It was never
| plugged into the internet. Wi-Fi is disabled on it as well. We've
| an Apple TV for everything else. We trust that far more than any
| smart TV. I would have paid extra for a TV that had no smarts: no
| Wi-Fi hadware, no fancy OS; if it was just really good at taking
| signal and presenting it to the screen well and was very very
| dumb otherwise I'd have chosen that.
| 74d-fe6-2c6 wrote:
| What is actually the appeal of a (smart) TV - especially for the
| tech-friendly scene on HN? Why doesn't a large monitor cut it?
| (Serious question)
| petercooper wrote:
| My LG CX "just works". Turns on in seconds, all the apps work
| fine, and everything is integrated really well. Certainly beats
| having to juggle three or four other things to get all the same
| services _and_ figure out how to get the HDR /Dolby Vision and
| 4K-ness working between them all.. I'd probably need an HDMI
| switch as well. Instead I have one device with update-able apps
| and it works flawlessly. The only thing I needed to add was a
| Bluray player.
|
| Oh, and the sound is fantastic, complete with Dolby Atmos
| support, without needing a soundbar or anything separate at
| all. Plus where am I going to find a non-smart 65" OLED panel
| with Dolby Vision support anyway?
| 74d-fe6-2c6 wrote:
| fair enough. I guess I don't have such high expectations
| regarding the multimedial experience. it seems a 30 to 40
| inch display would be more than large enough for my home
| cinema activities (at the moment I'm actually using a 26 inch
| monitor). and soundwise I'm anyway wearing bluetooth ANC
| headphones. all connected my notebook.
| petercooper wrote:
| Yeah, I'm really into watching movies at home (though not
| quite enough to have a lot of separate expensive gear) so
| there are a few tick boxes that it's nice to have wrapped
| up in one purchase :-)
|
| If I wasn't really into movies though, then yes, I would
| just want the simplest thing.. HDR, OLED, etc. are all an
| expensive waste if you're not watching content aimed for
| them.
| 74d-fe6-2c6 wrote:
| I am biiiig movie watcher, as well! I guess it's a lot
| about what you get used to. Never had a big TV - maybe
| that's why I'm happy with my modest setup.
| tonyfader wrote:
| fine, you'll have dumb tvs (but smart phones and homes), but your
| kids won't.
| recursive wrote:
| Nope, my home is dumb too. I turn my lights on with physical
| switches.
| ttt0 wrote:
| I don't buy anything with "Smart" in its name.
| johs wrote:
| this is intresting
| lrvick wrote:
| This is exactly why I never connect TVs to the internet.
|
| Then they are just dumb HDMI panels.
| freedomben wrote:
| Soon they'll be coming with their own 5G chips that phone home
| over cell networks - no wifi access required.
|
| Or, like the Amazon Echoes, they'll form a mesh network with
| your neighbors TVs and other devices and then just use your
| _neighbor 's_ wifi to phone home.
|
| It's coming. I'm buying Spectres and I suggest others do the
| same.
| kstrauser wrote:
| I've got an FCC radio license that says I get to hack my
| hardware and tell other people how to do the same.
| lrvick wrote:
| Also why I keep a hackRF/BladeRF around.
|
| I don't have any active cell phone modems on my property
| ever, so such transmissions would be easy to identify.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| I just don't have a TV.
| ttt0 wrote:
| Modern problems require modern solutions.
| tjpnz wrote:
| And I enclose the display in a Faraday cage.
| ddingus wrote:
| Lol, if this all gets too onerous, I will just stick with my
| plasmas and CRT displays.
|
| I have a few of each, they are in great condition and will be
| collecting a few more.
|
| OLED may prove compelling enough to get me interested, but
| nothing LCD will, except as computer display.
|
| I got super lucky on the plasma. It is big, beautiful and not
| all that smart. Got two of them, one seeing very light use.
|
| Those things said, chances are the display tech that performs
| on par with fast plasma and CRT will probably come with the
| worst of this "smart" code.
|
| Fine. I am game. Lets play. I will probably win, but it will
| also probably be a pain in the ass too.
|
| Maybe I will just get a third plasma...
|
| The other thing which has happened as a result of all this is
| I personally do not bother with TV much. Just hate the ads.
| Too much, too frequent, too repetitive.
|
| I have never been happier. All that bonus time!
| alacombe wrote:
| > Soon they'll be coming with their own 5G chips that phone
| home over cell networks - no wifi access required
|
| This is something I never understood about the IOT bullcrap,
| even if something _can_ connect to a mobile network, they 'd
| still need the expense of a data subscription which render
| the whole thing pretty moot. It's not as if 5G providers were
| operating their network for free.
| Merad wrote:
| I'd expect that a company the size of Samsung is able to
| negotiate data plans at least an order of magnitude cheaper
| than anything available to the average consumer.
| sidpatil wrote:
| The device manufacturer will eat the cost of the 5G
| subscription, since it will likely be lower than the
| revenue generated from the harvested personal data.
| alacombe wrote:
| How low can you get these ? Even at $5/month, that's
| $60... is a single user's data worth that much ?
| drevil-v2 wrote:
| It will be only tracking and surveillance data that the
| TV uploads to the mothership. It's not like they will let
| you stream YouTube, Netflix or Prime on their inbuilt 5G
| connection.
|
| So the cost will be minimal and further reduced by the
| bulk volume that the manufacturer would purchase from the
| telco. Like how Amazon Kindle comes with a free 3G
| connection to download your books and upload your reading
| habits.
| alacombe wrote:
| You're not answering the question, I'm not asking
| anything about streaming anything over 5G. I'm asking
| about the cost of IoT subscription, plus all the logistic
| to put in place in every country where a company intend
| to your product.
| throw2183912983 wrote:
| They did answer the question:
|
| > So the cost will be minimal and further reduced by the
| bulk volume that the manufacturer would purchase from the
| telco. Like how Amazon Kindle comes with a free 3G
| connection to download your books and upload your reading
| habits.
|
| I have no doubt a TV manufacturer selling millions of
| devices could get any US LTE carrier to sell them a low-
| bandwidth data service for pennies per device per month.
| You're talking about retail rates, when a bulk IoT buyer
| like this will not be paying anything close to retail.
|
| As for the logistics, it's not that hard. They already
| have to produce separate SKUs for various regions for the
| power adapters. So you just add another variable:
| included SIM card. US gets a [Verizon|ATT|T-Mo] SIM, EU
| gets one of their carriers, etc.
| sidpatil wrote:
| When we had satellite TV (more than a decade ago), one of
| the conditions was to keep the receiver plugged into the
| phone line. If it wasn't plugged in, there'd be a $5
| surcharge on the bill that month.
|
| I figured this was because they were collecting data on
| viewership habits. Each customer profile must have been
| worth $5 or more, based on the surcharge amount.
|
| (The phone line was useful for other things too, like
| ordering PPV/on-demand/premium channels through the menus
| directly, as opposed to calling them in through a 1-800
| number.)
| BerislavLopac wrote:
| FWIW, I recently bought a 50" Acer monitor [0] I use for all my
| viewing needs. There is a Google Chromecast and a Mac Mini hooked
| up to it; previously I also had an Amazon Fire stick (not needed
| any more since Google allowed casting from Amazon apps) and a
| Raspberry Py (I was never really able to find a good use for it,
| so I removed it). I don't watch live TV, so I don't need a tuner.
|
| [0] https://www.amazon.co.uk/Acer-EB490QKbmiiipx-Monitor-
| Black-P...
| tigrezno wrote:
| What about using a mini-pc with a TV tuner to bypass your TV
| software???
| xwdv wrote:
| Did "Dumb" TVs really need defending? Seems like if anything we
| should be convinced instead why Smart TVs are a good idea.
| capableweb wrote:
| Maybe not in the HN bubble, but certainly outside. Many people
| don't give a fuck if it's smart or dumb, they buy what the
| salesman in the store manage to sell them. "Smart" sounds...
| Smart, so easy sell.
| xwdv wrote:
| Then this article is simply preaching to a choir here.
| Perhaps it should be posted somewhere where more common
| people frequent so that their minds may be blown a bit, if
| they actually manage to read the article that is.
| spoonjim wrote:
| If they were not user hostile it could be nice. For example if
| the device itself ran the streaming software, you could turn on
| your TV from that streaming service's phone app.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| > For example if the device itself ran the streaming
| software, you could turn on your TV from that streaming
| service's phone app.
|
| That was what HDMI CEC was supposed to deliver... assuming
| that it works. Hit and miss.
| monkpit wrote:
| But when it works... man, is it great!
| mrweasel wrote:
| Many TV already allow this, either via Chromecast or AirPlay.
| Personally I hate using my phone as a remote, but many TV
| supports it. Given that this doesn't work without networking,
| the inclusion of these features, might be a trick to get
| people to allow teir TVs to get on a network.
|
| For me one of the major down fall of smart TVs is that even
| with out the privacy invasion they all just SUCK. The
| interfaces are terrible, the hardware isn't nearly fast
| enough, they just all feel slughish, you can't expect
| software updates for more than a few years and you can't be
| sure that you prefered streaming service is available if you
| not in a major market.
|
| It's actually a surprise that not one TV manufacturer has
| admitted that they aren't in fact able to produce a quality
| smart TV.
|
| Maybe it's just me, but I use the AppleTV as the benchmark
| for what you need to deliver as a minimum. Anything less is a
| bad experience. Remember the AppleTV is still just a minor
| product for Apple, and companies who try to sell a similar,
| more integrated product, can't do better? Why?
| imglorp wrote:
| > Incredibly, Samsung even recommends that you run virus and
| malware checking on your TV regularly.
|
| Given its constant ambient speech scanning, Samsung also
| recommends that you leave the room if you want to have a private
| conversation. This makes me very, very angry.
| neolog wrote:
| Source?
| imglorp wrote:
| https://www.cnet.com/news/samsungs-warning-our-smart-tvs-
| rec...
| neolog wrote:
| > If a consumer consents and uses the voice recognition
| feature, voice data is provided to a third party during a
| requested voice command search. At that time, the voice
| data is sent to a server, which searches for the requested
| content then returns the desired content to the TV.
|
| That seems normal, not like persistent background
| recording.
| 420codebro wrote:
| Google it you royal faggot.
| scrooched_moose wrote:
| At least for the time being it's still possible to keep TVs off
| the internet and bypass this garbage. I've got a 2020 Sony and
| have never seen an ad on it.
|
| I'm expecting these days are numbered though; some combination of
| ethernet-over-HDMI, Amazon Sidewalk, built-in 5G antennas, or
| just straight up refusing to work without a network connection
| feels like it's just a couple years away.
| habeebtc wrote:
| I cannot seem to find it now, but I read couple years back
| something about TV manufacturers considering embedding a cell
| and sim card SoC into these smart TV's for exactly this reason.
| m463 wrote:
| That would be 5G iot stuff. Sort of like wifi you don't own.
| nuker wrote:
| > built-in 5G antennas, or just straight up refusing to work
| without a network connection feels like it's just a couple
| years away
|
| Tesla cars now.
| Buttons840 wrote:
| Imagine a TV that must be connected to the internet at all
| times being hacked so that it only plays educational videos
| about the evils of Smart TV's 24/7.
| saxelsen wrote:
| There's a good Darknet Diaries podcast episode about Hacker
| Giraffe, a guy who hacked 50,000 open printers to tell the
| owners their devices were exposed.
| nitrogen wrote:
| Way, way, way back in the day there was a tool called Simba
| and a search engine that you could use to find tons of
| music, etc. that would open download links in the Simba
| app. Turns out, that was just an SMB client connecting to
| open Windows shares.
| yftsui wrote:
| I upgraded my TV to a Sony X950 because I cannot find a decent
| dumb TV, got really annoyed with the super buggy Google Android
| TV thing.
|
| The cold start time is absurdly high, the basic feature of a TV -
| built in OTA TV player has a bug that the channel display stays
| on forever, the Airplay frequently play video with no sound. The
| only fix is find the 3 level deep restart menu item, because
| power on / off doesn't matter. I would be more than happy to pay
| more for a normal Sony TV, with a "not using Google Android TV"
| label.
| [deleted]
| smileybarry wrote:
| They're not all bad, at least. I bought a Sony X900H (2020) and
| I don't have those issues. Heck, it's fast enough that I put my
| Shield TV away.
|
| Also -- you can restart by holding the power button on the
| remote, then choosing "Restart".
| yftsui wrote:
| Ahh long press power button works! At least this would make
| my regular reboot for watching local channels easier.
| j1dopeman wrote:
| I also bought one recently. The most annoying issue for me is
| that it automatically changes the setting for my audio output
| and there is no way to tell it to just respect my damn setting
| and stop doing auto changes.
| kinghtown wrote:
| Maybe we should be reading more books? TV is a classic waste of
| time anyways and now the experience is becoming more and more
| user hostile.
|
| I'm honestly worried about this tech coming after computers next.
| Windows tried this before but I'm thinking it was a test run.
|
| Like watch an un-skippable ad before sending an email levels of
| bullshit.
| myrandomcomment wrote:
| I just bought the TV I wanted and never connected it to the
| internet, never ran the "setup". I use an AppleTV 4K which has
| all the streaming apps you want (Netflix, Amazon, BBC, Pluto,
| etc.). For local media I use an application called MrMC ($6.99)
| which is a Kodi port to the AppleTV that allows you to mount
| Samba/NFS (https://mrmc.tv). MrMC even supports using a SQL
| backend for keeping track of your media (like Kodi). I just run
| it in on a jail in my TrueNAS setup. Every TV is the same, every
| time someone starts MrMC everything is in sync. Nice and simple.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| _> never connected it to the internet_
|
| Which is all fine and dandy but if you've bought a fancy new TV
| with bleeding edge features for use with your next-gen console,
| like low-latency gaming mode, HDMI 2.1 4K/120Hz, dolby atmos,
| etc, it can all comes apart when you realize you need a
| firmware update that fixes a bug with said bleeding edge
| features, since a lot of consumer HW these days is rushed out
| the factory door with their firmware partly unfinished and the
| expectation that a day-one patch will be available once the HW
| gets to consumers and the manufacturer has had more time for
| testing.
|
| What then?
|
| Even on TVs from over 10 years ago you could update the FW
| offline by plugging in a USB drive with the FW binary you would
| download from the manufacturer's website but now your only
| option is to keep the TV online and have it pull the updates
| itself, often unencrypted from some often unsecure CDN server
| while it sends telemetry data back to the mothership about your
| usage patterns.
|
| I know I'll have to miss out on the next-gen features for a
| while but you can count me out from the shit-show that is smart
| TVs.
| gambiting wrote:
| I mean.....I have the top of the line LG CX TV and it can be
| updated from a USB stick. I honestly have no idea why you'd
| leave it unplugged though, the OS is super fast, starts up
| instantly and it has all the apps I need, plugging in another
| device just to watch Netflix seems super wasteful.
| gorgoiler wrote:
| Connect it, update the firmware, disconnect it.
|
| It's useful to a separate SSID for smart-TV like devices. You
| can randomly update the passwords (to execute the _disconnect
| it_ step) without annoying everyone else in the house.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| _> Connect it, update the firmware, disconnect it._
|
| If your original intent of having it air-gapped in the
| first place was for privacy and security then doing what
| you said would be like saying:
|
| _remove condom, have intercourse, put back condom :D_
| gorgoiler wrote:
| My main reason is to neuter ad delivery.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| The problem with this approach is that once you hook it
| up online for the first time, ads can be cookied and
| still displayed once it goes offline.
| z3ncyberpunk wrote:
| temporarily, you're making mountains out of mole hills
| myrandomcomment wrote:
| There are 2 paths:
|
| 1. Connect it, allow it to update, disconnect it. If any
| local "ads" pop up, do a factory reset which will wipe all
| the cached data.
|
| 2. Most devices allow you to update firmware from a file via
| USB. Just get the file which is only the firmware and update
| that way.
| mrmonkeyman wrote:
| Then you connect it. Update. And then disconnnect it again.
| fock wrote:
| well, with the "white-label" TVs mentioned in the article you
| don't have this problem, because they don't even have these
| features.
|
| Said that, the advertised brand just looks like the usual
| bottom of the barrel chinese TV set. And these usually have
| substantially worse specs than what you get from NEC and Co.
| for around 25% more than the equivalent TV (viewing angles,
| coating and brightness come to mind in a conference room
| application).
| Freak_NL wrote:
| I'm a bit worried about the TV having some kind of internal
| clock set in the factory configured to throw an undismissible
| prompt after a year or two because your firmware 'expired' and
| you need security updates to keep your internet connected
| device that is not connected to the internet safe.
|
| You won't know if the TV has such a feature until someone
| encounters it years after the device is first sold.
| jannes wrote:
| Couldn't you just change the date back a few years in that
| case? Why do you need an accurate date on the TV?
| _underfl0w_ wrote:
| How would you change the date if you can't get around the
| prompt?
| TylerE wrote:
| FWIW, one of the majors complaints is that many of these
| devices will _actively, without prompting_ search for and
| connect to open wifi.
| tombert wrote:
| I've heard this mentioned on HN a few times; is there any
| documented case of this actually happening?
| dijit wrote:
| Some stuff a year ago. It was confirmed by others at the
| time (after testing) though didn't seem to get picked up by
| news outlets.
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/bpr6xs/if_you_cho
| o...
|
| Anecdotally I have 6 Samsung TVs hung on my office wall for
| monitoring, which run the Tizen OS and the nag screens
| about connecting to a network and accepting the ToS make
| the units a little annoying to work with. (But it's not as
| bad as to say I wouldn't use the thing). It wouldn't
| surprise me if they were scanning for open Wi-Fi. I might
| test it out, but we're surrounded by free Wi-Fi which has
| captive portals, so it's effectively black holed.
| myrandomcomment wrote:
| This Reddit post is not proof as no one has been able to
| replicate this. This internet lore until there is
| repeatable proof.
| neonscribe wrote:
| Or you can just treat your smart TV like a dumb TV. If you ignore
| the smart part, they generally work just fine as a monitor and
| speakers and HDMI input switch with ARC and CEC. Choose your TV
| for the picture quality and whatever other features you want. The
| cost penalty for buying smarts you don't use is usually very
| small. You don't need to connect your TV to the Internet. If you
| need to install a firmware update, connect it to the network then
| disconnect it, but you may never even need a firmware update if
| you aren't using the smartness.
| darksaints wrote:
| I don't really see any criticisms inherent to the idea of a smart
| TV, although some might like them to be simpler for simplicity's
| sake. But I would imagine most people would love their smart TVs
| if they were not just one more convoluted layer of ads to
| generate continuous revenue and spy on you to harvest data.
| Spivak wrote:
| I just wish you could buy TVs with either Apple TV or
| Chromecast built in like we have for Android Auto or CarPlay.
|
| (some, usually lower end, TVs do have chromecasts but they're
| not super common)
| kstrauser wrote:
| I'd never voluntarily buy one. Tech ages much more quickly
| than TV panels and I don't want to have to replace my entire
| TV unit just to upgrade the computing part. Also, you just
| know that the quality of the computing bits would be tied to
| the quality of the screen: you wouldn't be able to get a
| high-end Apple TV paired with a reasonably priced screen.
|
| I think the current combination of dumb or defanged screen
| plus an easily replaceable settop box is just about perfect.
| I'd vastly rather mix and match components than be saddled
| with some awful chimera.
| Spivak wrote:
| I agree with you completely but since it seems like we're
| already in a future where basically every TV is smart this
| seems like the least bad option. At least Apple TVs ans
| Chromecasts get updates for a decent amount of time.
| phreack wrote:
| It's inherent inasmuch as that if companies are able to profit
| by using 'smartness', they will do it, absolutely. I've yet to
| see one company large enough to sell TVs with a proven track
| record of not selling data for ads if able.
| anshumankmr wrote:
| In my parent's house, they have a regular flatscreen and they
| bought a Chromecast. There are ads when they use YouTube but
| thankfully Netflix does not.
| petepete wrote:
| If you pay for YouTube Premium, like you do Netflix, you can go
| totally ad-free.
| wiether wrote:
| As an avid TV show consumer, people regularly asks me why am I
| still using my 10 years old 32" Panasonic. Well, not only it
| still works as day one, so why would I get rid of a perfectly
| working piece of tech, also I'm not sure a bigger screen will
| improve my consumer experience. Having a nVidia Shield and Plex
| setup, what would be the point of having a smart TV since I've
| already got everything a smart TV do and even better. 4K UHD ?
| Legally or not, there is so limited content available in more
| than 1080p at that moment that it wouldn't makes sense to upgrade
| now. Also with new TV it seems that you have to take care of
| framerate profiles, HDR and whatnot. I just want to watch The
| Office for the 200th time, I don't care about that and I don't
| want to.
|
| I remember when I bought my TV, the salesmen were trying to make
| me buy a 3D TV since it was the hype at that time. But I was
| certain that 3D was no for me, that it wasn't going to last and a
| 3D TV will cost me more than a 2D. So I just looked at images on
| the screens in the shops and finaly I said : "this one", without
| knowing anything about it except that I felt satisfied with how
| the images were rendered. It appeared that not only it wasn't a
| 3D TV but also it wasn't, by far, the cheapest one. The 3D ones
| they were trying to sell me were actually cheaper than the one I
| picked. I don't know if the salesman got a better % on the sell,
| but me I was and still am very satisfied with my choice !
|
| Smart TV is not a trend like 3D was, it will definitely stay so
| unfortunately I don't see how better it can be in the future
| since people want cheap TV, and even if some manufacturers offers
| dumb TV, they will cost more than the smart ones so it will never
| a huge success.
| nuker wrote:
| Im praying my pre-android Sony 55" will live another 5 years.
| Wifi is disabled and i will never run sw update. Works with
| AppleTV now, sound via AV receiver.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| This is yet another proof that advertising is a cancer on society
| and should be kept in check by regulation otherwise it ends up
| taking over everything including _paid_ products and pushes ad-
| free products out of the market.
| nuker wrote:
| List of Ad-Free TV sets by RTings.com
| https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/ads-in-smart-tv
| gpspake wrote:
| Huge "dumb tv" proponent here I've had an nvidia shield for years
| and it checks all the boxes for me. It runs android and from what
| I know, it's one of the most well supported android devices
| period in terms of consistent updates. Here's why I love it:
|
| - I have access to the play store for apps, not some proprietary
| tv manufacturer subset of poorly developed apps. That means I can
| install the retroarch/plex/etc android apps directly from play.
|
| - It has built in google assistant which I use every day to play
| music and yt videos (as well as controlling other stuff in my
| all-google house.
|
| - Thanks to CEC, if I say "hey google play [artist] videos on
| shield" it will turn on the shield, which will turn on my TV,
| which will turn on my stereo. I never have to touch buttons if I
| want to listen to music.
|
| - Because it's android TV, I can clear my homescreen of
| everything but the app launchers I use - no ads, no suggestions,
| no junk apps.
|
| - It has a really cool feature that lets you stream 4k from a PC
| with an nvidia card. I added the rdp exe as a "game" that I can
| stream so I stream my office desktop to my living room tv to
| browse reddit and check emails and stuff. (This is probably one
| of the most incomparable features)
|
| - It has 2 usb ports. I use one for retroarch roms and the other
| one for a logitech wireless kb with a touch pad (which is great
| for when I'm streaming my desktop but also when I need to enter a
| password or something.
|
| - you can pair any controller with it but I've used the nvidia
| controller that came with it to play a bunch of n64 and snes
| games all the way through on retro arch.
|
| My TV is stupid and I like it that way. As far as I'm concerned,
| the shield is my TV's os
| reedjosh wrote:
| > - I have access to the play store for apps, not some
| proprietary tv manufacturer subset of poorly developed apps.
| That means I can install the retroarch/plex/etc android apps
| directly from play.
|
| > - It has built in google assistant which I use every day to
| play music and yt videos (as well as controlling other stuff in
| my all-google house.
|
| You're not getting it. The whole point is to avoid constant
| tracking. If you have Google services, you're being tracked.
| iFreilicht wrote:
| The point is to get to choose the experience you want, and if
| you want the simplicity of having an Android box connected to
| your dumb Tv, that's a-ok. If you want to go kore custom and
| just have a raspi with plex on it, that's great, too.
|
| The problem with smart TVs is that they force tracking and
| ads upon you, with little to no options of opting out.
| jannes wrote:
| The problem with Google is that they force tracking and ads
| upon you, with little to no options of opting out.
|
| You don't know what background processes are running on an
| Nvidia Shield, do you?
| panta82 wrote:
| I bought a Sony smart TV about a year ago. I don't get ads per
| say, but there is a prominent area in the main menu where Sony
| wants to shill their services and that can't be turned off. Also,
| TV has to be restarted every week or two (it's android).
|
| On the other hand, I love that I can easily cast screen from my
| laptop or photos from phone using built in chromecast.
|
| Smart TVs are a mixed bag.
| jjgreen wrote:
| _per se_
| https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/per-se
| lostlogin wrote:
| I have a Sony too, and it's a little too chatty for my liking.
| I blocked port 53 unless it came from my own dns and added the
| below to my blocklist on a pihole. It's deeply imperfect but
| has blocked a lot of their crap. I had to whitelist one Netflix
| domain.
|
| https://github.com/Perflyst/PiHoleBlocklist/blob/master/Smar...
|
| Edit: I just checked. The Sony TV made 8249 requests in the
| last 24 hours. I have more locking down to do.
| temp8964 wrote:
| But does anybody here really use dumb TV? How is a dumb TV + a TV
| stick different from a smart TV?
| witherk wrote:
| I think the idea is that you don't use a stick but instead some
| kind of open source content manager like kodi.
| nerdponx wrote:
| Of course I do. I bought it for $150 on Black Friday in 2016,
| not realizing that I would never have a chance to buy one
| again. I refuse to upgrade. I don't use a stick or anything
| either, I just plug in my laptop with HDMI.
| temp8964 wrote:
| So that's just a monitor.
| jefft255 wrote:
| Less buggy in my experience. My Sony's software is pretty
| buggy, and the experience is overall poorer than my previous
| setup of dumb + chromecast. Plugging a chromecast is doable of
| course but it feels silly since I can cast directly to the TV.
| Google now sells a stick with a full blown android tv
| implementation and I'm sure it's much better than what
| manufacturers are putting on their TVs.
|
| Also, software ages much more poorly than screens. TV have a
| useable life of more than 10 years. So the smart features will
| be broken long before the TV. On a dumb tv you can upgrade the
| stick for 50$. Not so long ago I was using an ancient plasma TV
| just fine with a chromecast.
|
| To me the real deal is still dumb tv + Linux media pc. If
| freedom and privacy is important to you then you have full
| control over that.
| justaguy88 wrote:
| If you use an apple tv, then all you want of your tv is to be a
| dumb hdmi display
| jjice wrote:
| My roommate recently bought a TV that described itself as quad
| core. I love computers and I love software, but as a developer, I
| don't want computers in places they aren't necessary. Your TV is
| one of those to me.
| banana_giraffe wrote:
| Shopping for a new dryer and I had a similar thought. Nothing
| good is going to come of my dryer being connected to Wifi.
| buildbot wrote:
| If only my Samsung tv would stop killing the hdmi ports of Apple
| TV's :(
| ketamine__ wrote:
| Cool domain name.
| prpl wrote:
| just bought an insignia with fire TV today. Took me 20 minutes to
| figure out how to tune to a local TV station.
| rubyfan wrote:
| I recently bought a new TV and did a little searching for dumb
| TVs before buying. It's really hard to find a dumb TV. I learned
| that you can in fact buy a commercial TV that is dumb which seems
| like a good option.
|
| I ended up going with a smart enabled Samsung TV and have not
| enabled the TV to access wifi. It wants me to agree to terms and
| conditions whenever I pull up the main menu. I've learned to
| ignore it but it has asked at least once without good reason to
| access wifi.
| julianlam wrote:
| This may be tinfoil-hat adjacent, but I have heard that the
| allure of advertising data is so high that TV manufacturers
| will program their software to connect to any open WiFi network
| in order to deliver their collected data.
|
| By the way, your post is basically the article, except they
| mention Sceptre TVs, who specialize in making dumb tv panels.
| derwiki wrote:
| If you connect to a black hole Arduino AP is it smart enough
| to detect that and roam to an open Wifi network?
| Groxx wrote:
| I mean, "smart enough" is "can I phone home? no? try other
| wifi" which is pretty darn simple to build. Even by
| accident.
| o-__-o wrote:
| Yes.
| chrisrogers wrote:
| At that point it's time to open the thing up and rip out the
| antenna.
| Silhouette wrote:
| At some point, it becomes time to pass draconian laws
| against consumer-hostile practices like phoning home other
| than to perform the intended function of a product or
| forcing updates that change behaviour in adverse or
| unwanted ways.
|
| I am reasonably sure that point is already behind us, but
| politicians are not exactly known for their tech savvy and
| timely regulation of tech industry.
| nichos wrote:
| You can't legislate morals.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| What else is worth legislating? If it was in the
| manufacturer's short-sighted selfish interest, they'd do
| it. For everything else, there's customer action and
| legal action.
| mschuetz wrote:
| It's being done all the time, and it's exactly what
| legislation is for. Workers rights, consumer protection,
| EPA, outlawing child labor and slaves, etc.
| nicbou wrote:
| There is already the GDPR, but it lacks sufficient
| enforcement.
|
| This is a very relevant read (PDF): https://www.bundeskar
| tellamt.de/SharedDocs/Publikation/EN/Ot...
| KirillPanov wrote:
| Have you seen the size of the antenna in your cell phone?
|
| You're never gonna find all the antennas inside a product
| the size of a television. Some will be part of the circuit
| boards.
| o-__-o wrote:
| So I advertised sceptre TVs here last year about this time.
| I've had one for a year now and I do not recommend it. The
| color recreation is garbage, lots of glare, poor upscaling,
| and basically it's everything you would expect out of a $200
| 55" tv (or $380 75", they are stupid cheap) . Also my TV has
| a line of dead pixels and sceptre seems to have forgotten
| about my RMA.
|
| While I won't replace it with an LG Cx series oled, I won't
| be ashamed to pickup a hisense or Samsung when I eventually
| rage quit this trash
| iFreilicht wrote:
| It's worth noting that they sell very high-peice dumb TVs
| for over 2000$ as well now, so I'd expect those to have
| pretty amazing panels built in.
| augstein wrote:
| A possible alternative, at least for people inclined to a more
| cinematic watching experience (which has its pros and cons), is
| to buy a projector.
| zhte415 wrote:
| A projector also makes an excellent second monitor, again
| pros and cons.
| stevenwoo wrote:
| Don't know if they are widely available or available anymore
| but the last time I bought a TV, I got a commercial display for
| digital signage which had no smart tv features. It just had a
| bunch of HDMI/av inputs which I used with game consoles/android
| TV box. The screen is not as great as latest TVs for home use.
| vincentmarle wrote:
| I picked up a 40" Sceptre "dumb tv" for $150 on Black Friday
| and added a Google TV Chromecast. The TV itself just does the
| bare minimum: turn on/off, sound higher/lower. Everything else
| is controlled by Google TV. By far my best purchase of the
| year.
| dreen wrote:
| Some people upgrade to a new TV as often as every two/three
| years. You just need to find them on gumtree just before
| christmas. Thats how I got my big dumb LG.
| massysett wrote:
| Could you just do a computer monitor? They have an HDMI port so
| they will show anything you want. Downsides: no tuner. Not a
| problem if you don't need one. No remote control. Maybe not
| much of a downside if you're just watching using a streaming
| box. No sound. Not a problem if using a sound bar.
|
| Seems a worthy idea if you're concerned about tracking, but I
| don't see this idea around so I must be missing a downside.
| rubyfan wrote:
| Yeah that would probably work for smaller needs but haven't
| seen monitors at 65" and higher range
| pxeboot wrote:
| Dell sells at least 75" monitors. They do cost 10x as much
| as a similar size smart TV from Walmart though.
| colordrops wrote:
| I'm sure i sound like a luddite but why does anyone need a
| 65" screen.
| PurpleFoxy wrote:
| No one needs a TV at all so that argument is pointless.
| PeterisP wrote:
| Do people need a 15" computer monitor?
|
| If instead of a chair-desk-monitor you're sitting at a
| couch 5 times further from the screen, the equivalent
| screen size is 5 times larger, so 75" for the equivalent
| of what a 15" monitor gives you at your desk.
| Macha wrote:
| Meanwhile to sit somewhere where a 75" TV in my living
| room takes up a corresponding field of view to my 27" PC
| monitor I think I'd need to knock a few walls and sit in
| my neighbours
| cy_hauser wrote:
| Backwards. Not sure if it's the square of the distance
| but you do need more than double the size at twice the
| distance.
| holoduke wrote:
| I am using a 65 inch dumb Samsung pc screen together with a
| Nvidia shield. 3 years ago I bought the screen for 1000
| bucks. Nvidia shield remote also works with the screen and
| stereo tuner. For my it's the perfect setup. Rooted the
| shield to get rid of all non essential crap. No ads. Very
| fast. And Plex,Kodi, Netflix, YouTube and Spotify working
| perfectly.
| scrooched_moose wrote:
| I did much the same and ultimately came to the conclusions
| that:
|
| 1) The remaining consumer options are on the low to mediocre
| end of the spectrum and don't have great picture
|
| 2) The commercial options are more expensive with mediocre
| picture, as they're intended for digital signage (24/7 full
| brightness), not movies.
| rubyfan wrote:
| Yeah those are the reasons I went with the smart TV kept
| offline. It's a bummer that TVs now come with terms and
| conditions designed to monetize you and even though you own
| the thing you can't control it.
| pridkett wrote:
| I'm really pleased the author called out the Apple TV as a device
| that lets you avoid ads. We tried to go cheap on another of our
| TVs and get an Amazon Fire Stick and in addition to it being not
| as smooth (combo of UX and speed) at the Apple TV, it had a good
| amount of ads all over the place.
|
| There's lots of griping about the cost of an Apple TV 4k, but
| I'll pay that extra $100 to avoid ads and not be tracked so
| extensively.
| deadmutex wrote:
| Ehn, no vp9 though (last I checked)... so if you watch a lot of
| YT in 4K, it uses more bandwidth than say Google TV.
| pwthornton wrote:
| I don't think most people care about vp9 or codec wars. It's
| not something on almost anyone's minds.
|
| h.264 and h.265 are the dominant codecs, regardless.
|
| And Netflix found that h.265 consumed less bandwidth than
| vp9, not more: https://www.streamingmedia.com/Articles/ReadAr
| ticle.aspx?Art...
| summm wrote:
| People should care if they want to watch YouTube in more
| than 720p resolution...
| yaml-ops-guy wrote:
| tvOS has supported vp9 since last year, the youtube app
| however has been slow getting that message...
|
| https://9to5mac.com/2020/09/18/4k-youtube-videos-still-
| not-c...
| exsf0859 wrote:
| Looks like it's been supported since October 2020:
|
| https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/3/21500399/apple-tv-
| youtube...
| bobbylarrybobby wrote:
| Somehow, google has made it so that the best way to watch
| YouTube on an Apple TV is to open YouTube.com in a browser
| on another apple device and airplay to the Apple TV.
| mkoubaa wrote:
| To be fair tvs are a very low margin product and without the
| ads it would be profitless for anyone but apple (or another
| manufacturer that sold as a premium to avoid ads). I don't know
| how big the market for that is, personally I'm happy with a
| dumb tv connected to a video game console that has all my
| streaming services.
| prepend wrote:
| To be fair, TVs are a decades old market that have paid off
| great for many companies and they didn't have ads until
| recently.
| m463 wrote:
| i can't help but think it is like bundleware and the PC,
| which would subsidize the cost of the system, maybe by $50.
|
| same thing is happening with TVs. This crap subsidizes the
| price of the TV, so then the $279 tv looks more attractive
| than the more expensive tvs without ads/tracking/data
| gathering (which then disappear)
| devoutsalsa wrote:
| TVs used to much more expensive, and they only became cheap
| when TV manufacturers realized there's a ton of money to be
| made by selling your personal information. A manufacturer
| that doesn't do this would not be competitively priced I'm
| afraid.
|
| "Why TVs Have Become So Inexpensive" =>
| https://youtu.be/NWwawTnT7LM
| prepend wrote:
| I don't agree with this video. I bought a 55" plasma for
| $800 over 10 years ago. And I bought a Sony Triniton for
| $1000 around 2000. The price of TVs seems to be fixed
| around this price point and we seem to get more features,
| bigger screens, etc and the price stays about the same.
|
| The highest end TVs I see also have ads. So I don't think
| this factors into the price at all. It's just bonus
| profits on top of existing profits.
|
| If ad data subsidized prices significantly, I wouldn't
| expect it in $4,000 TVs. Am I supposed to believe that
| the TV would be $4,050 without ads? It seems strange that
| high end TVs would care about these small amounts.
|
| I think this is just a cover story by marketers to garner
| sympathy.
| BrandoElFollito wrote:
| What kind of ads do you have on the fire stick?
|
| I am curious because in France at least there is only the top
| banner on the home screen, which I do not even see as I
| directly jump into an app.
| Egrodo wrote:
| The non-Apple equivalent is the Nvidia Shield TV. Excellent
| piece of hardware that gives you access to basically every
| streaming app, plus integrates with Android's casting setup.
|
| Also fun fact, the Shield TV is the longest supported Android
| device in existence
|
| (https://www.androidauthority.com/nvidia-shield-tv-25th-
| updat...)
| jannes wrote:
| > Android
|
| I wouldn't trust the world's biggest tracking company not to
| track me.
|
| You're kind of moving laterally there. (From trusting Smart
| TV to trusting Google.)
| throwawei369 wrote:
| All brands of smart TVs track you. Regardless of operating
| system. With this reasoning, one should not even look at
| any modern equipped TV.
| secfirstmd wrote:
| Yep plus when you start to stretch the Fire Stick and a few
| other products you find a number of issues. For example I've
| spend probably in the region of 40 hours trying to fix issues
| with Firestick and Echo Studio. When they work well they are
| excellent value for money products. But then you get a glitch
| (like audio dropping because of a lack of sync) and it becomes
| a morass. Hours upon hours and no solution (eventually getting
| to, we need to send this to our Devs). Apple stuff just works.
| Not as cheap and maybe not as hackable in some ways but it just
| works.
| jimmaswell wrote:
| I never had a single issue with my roommates' Samsung smart
| TV (casting or otherwise) besides some buggy apps. Apple
| doesn't have a monopoly on "just works."
| PurpleFoxy wrote:
| My parents have a Samsung TV and it's incredibly slow to
| the point it's difficult to change the volume. I think they
| pushed out OS updates that made it slower.
| throw0101a wrote:
| Great except for the fact that smart TVs connected to the
| Internet have all sorts of privacy concerns:
|
| * https://techcrunch.com/2019/12/01/fbi-smart-tv-security/
|
| Samsung actually released a TV app to tell you what it's
| doing:
|
| * https://fortune.com/2020/01/18/samsung-smart-tv-data-
| privacy...
|
| Which is nice, in a way, but it'd be better if they just
| didn't.
|
| I'd be much more trusting of Apple TV being connected to
| the Internet than with a smart TV.
| lostlogin wrote:
| As a bad alternative. By the smart TVs, add a Pihole to
| the network. Block port 53 if it isn't from the Pihole
| and add an as list like the one below.
|
| It seems to work well.
|
| https://github.com/Perflyst/PiHoleBlocklist/blob/master/S
| mar...
| bitwize wrote:
| That is a bad alternative, as in no alternative at all
| really. I don't want a device that requires me to do
| network engineering to prevent it from doing things I
| didn't ask for or want.
| throw0101a wrote:
| 1. I'm not going to tell my parents to get a Pihole.
|
| 2. Wait until your smart TV starts using DNS-over-HTTPS
| (DoH) to by-pass it. (Paul Vixie will be proved right
| eventually IMHO.)
| jeremy_wiebe wrote:
| Bought a Samsung TV that purports to support Airplay. It
| works... except for some apps can't stream to it. Turns out
| that some apps can only Airplay to official Apple devices
| and not the Samsung TVs despite marketing. I was planning
| to neuter the network from my TV and go with an Apple TV
| anyways, but that sealed the deal.
| PurpleFoxy wrote:
| I'm fairly sure that's DRM getting in the way. I use an
| open source tool to emulate an airplay target but it
| won't work on copyright content.
| koolba wrote:
| Just works vs. just works and also uploads screenshots of
| what you're watching for ad targeting analysis isn't much
| of a contest.
| jeswin wrote:
| I have been using an Apple TV and a Chromecast for a long time.
|
| I've never seen an ad on the Chromecast - it simply plays a
| stream as instructed by an app on the phone. Is it different
| with the Fire Stick?
| lostlogin wrote:
| The Chromecast does some gross shit. You see it in Pihole if
| you force it to route its dns through the Pihole.
|
| It has some black magic whereby it ignores local dns setting
| as far as I can tell. I blocked port 53 at firewall and sent
| it back to a Pihole.
|
| Good times.
| nuker wrote:
| > I blocked port 53 at firewall and sent it back to a
| Pihole
|
| Im betting my savings this is far from enough, its Google
| sw, they smart AF. Send that thing back to where you bought
| it better :)
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| Better melt it down just to be sure :)
| dijit wrote:
| I don't think it's black magic. They just do DNS over
| HTTPS.
| pridkett wrote:
| At the rate things are going you're likely going to want to
| just blackhole all of the public DNS-over-https
| providers[0] to ensure that it's not switching to DoH to
| get around your rules.
|
| [0]: https://gist.github.com/roycewilliams/dd13c8f4a3371a57
| f8dd82...
| chovybizzass wrote:
| apple still tracking you. i like the fire tv because you can
| side load apps that aren't in the store. great for us hackers.
| rishav_sharan wrote:
| Are ads on firestick a US only thing or have I been blind to
| not notice any ads in my firestick?
| barrkel wrote:
| The only ads I see are the banners, but I don't pay any
| attention to those. There aren't any video ads, which is all
| I really care about.
|
| (My dumb TV is a projector, one of the best decisions we've
| made in the past 5 years.)
| anuragsoni wrote:
| I like the apple tv interface, but I really disliked the remote
| that ships with it. The touchpad like interface feels really
| awkward, i would lift it up the wrong way pretty much every
| time. I remember reading about an apple certified 3rd party
| remote that was more like a traditional tv remote but that was
| only sold in the european market for some reason. If they ever
| decide to switch back to a proper remote i'll take a look at
| apple tv again. I'll keep running a roku til that happens.
| ProfessorLayton wrote:
| Not a huge fan of the Apple TV remote either (But I also
| don't hate it). The good news is that the Apple TV plays nice
| with stock TV remotes + game console controllers -- I use my
| 8bitdo Sn30 Pro, but PS/Xbox controllers should work fine
| too.
|
| If you already own an extra gamepad, then it's worth a try
| and doesn't cost extra. There's a few gems in Apple Arcade,
| which was a surprise.
| anuragsoni wrote:
| > Not a huge fan of the Apple TV remote either (But I also
| don't hate it). The good news is that the Apple TV plays
| nice with stock TV remotes + game console controllers -- I
| use my 8bitdo Sn30 Pro, but PS/Xbox controllers should work
| fine too.
|
| Thanks, this is nice to know! I'll keep this in mind for
| whenever I'm ready to replace my Roku.
| prepend wrote:
| I didn't like it at first, but now it's my favorite tvbox
| remote ever.
|
| Mainly because it doesn't take batteries, is flat, works
| great with my phone, and I can use the touchpad without
| finding the specific button in the dark.
|
| I do pick it up the wrong way a lot, but it's better than all
| other devices I've tried- fire, roku, tv, wd.
|
| Just not having to find doubleA batteries in the past few
| months has made me accept it.
| anuragsoni wrote:
| The built in batteries are indeed nice and I did like that
| aspect of the remote.
|
| > and I can use the touchpad without finding the specific
| button in the dark.
|
| Interesting! This goes to show how the same design feels so
| different to different users :)
|
| I think I could've gotten used to the touchpad if I spent a
| lot more time with with the apple-tv/remote, but at the
| time it felt like a big regression. Compared to the roku
| remote, i'd lose a mute button, a headphone jack for
| private listening, and ended up with a touch heavy
| interface that was more frustrating than useful considering
| me and wife would pick it up the wrong way a lot. At the
| end of the day I decided to stick with a Roku and have
| something that doesn't frustrate my wife, instead of trying
| to get used to the remote just to have the apple tv
| interface :)
| m463 wrote:
| Of all the apple remotes, I liked the old white one because
| it was tactile and clicky. (although they overloaded too many
| features on the buttons)
| interpol_p wrote:
| I initially preferred the old, aluminium Apple TV remote when
| I first got the new one. But now, especially with kids I
| really appreciate the new one.
|
| - My four year old can search for shows by asking Siri
| instead of needing to type
|
| - When we're all watching together you can slide your finger
| over the touch surface to make one of the icons wobble in 3D.
| It's great when you're asking which episode someone would
| like to watch, you can highlight and focus the UI for them
|
| - No batteries and charges by lightning. I never had those
| R2032 batteries for the Aluminium remote whenever it ran out
|
| Agreed on lifting it up the wrong way every time. I bought a
| few cheap silicon covers for mine in bright colours and it
| really helps
| BoorishBears wrote:
| The Apple TV 4k supports HDMI CEC (and I'd assume the earlier
| models do too?)
|
| My normal LG TV remote works fine for controlling it
| nanidin wrote:
| I bought a silicon sleeve[0] for my remote - it makes it much
| easier to find in the dark, and it makes it really obvious
| which way is the right way to grab and use it.
|
| I generally use the built in remote app on my iPhone though -
| it's accessible from control center, and my phone is usually
| easier to find than the remote at any given moment.
|
| [0] https://www.amazon.com/Remote-Generation-Silicone-
| Controller...
| Zelphyr wrote:
| I had gotten used to my Apple TV remote. Sure, it kinda
| sucked not being able to instantly orient it but I kind-of
| got used to that too. Sure, it kinda sucked when I would
| accidentally brush my finger against the trackpad and do
| something unintended but I kind-of got used to that too.
|
| But it being made out of glass. What where they thinking?!
| You know how I orient the Apple TV remote now? My fingers
| know where the broken glass is on it. Making that out of
| glass was so beyond a dumb idea that I can't begin to imagine
| what they were thinking.
|
| The end result is, I love the Apple TV, but I don't know that
| I'll ever buy another one if the remote continues to be made
| of glass.
| jhoechtl wrote:
| You know you are tracked, right? It's just all the tracking
| information goes to one big monopolist instead of multiple
| providers. This may make it feel as if there is less tracking
| going on but it really isn't.
| robin_reala wrote:
| You can adjust the privacy settings so that you're not
| tracked: https://support.apple.com/guide/tv/adjust-privacy-
| settings-a...
|
| Beyond Apple, you should expect individual Apple TV apps to
| track by default.
| gurkendoktor wrote:
| I agree that you are still being tracked on an Apple TV, but
| that's because the YouTube app is still made by Google, and
| the Netflix app is made by Netflix, etc.
|
| Apple probably has some sort of tracking system, but they're
| hardly a tracking monopolist, not even on their own devices.
| fossuser wrote:
| Yes - I wish Apple would just make a TV. Call it a living room
| screen or a living room monitor or something.
|
| Make it OLED, dumb TV, instant on, Apple TV box plugs in.
| Separate box with front facing ports that connects to screen
| with one cable. A remote designed by someone who thought about
| it for ten seconds (why do modern TVs have dozens of buttons no
| one ever uses?).
|
| This entire market is in desperate need of someone to make
| something decent.
|
| The best available option today is LG and it's still laden with
| ads and takes a few seconds to boot up.
| randallsquared wrote:
| > _A remote designed by someone who thought about it for ten
| seconds_
|
| I love that a sibling comment to yours calls out the remote
| as dealbreaker terrible, but I agree with the sentiment that
| I would love a remote that was really well-designed.
| namdnay wrote:
| Much as their adware laden TVs drive me crazy, I have to
| admit that their remote is absolutely amazing. A nice piece
| of aluminum with a minimum number of buttons, and yet you
| can control Netflix, Prime, TV etc
| SOLAR_FIELDS wrote:
| You can go too far in the other direction too, however.
| Apple TV remote infamously has no mute functionality. And
| if you do an internet search on how to mute the Apple TV
| using the remote (because of course there's a way, right?
| No one would design a TV remote that has volume control
| without mute) you get either one of two answers:
|
| - it's impossible/difficult to do with current tech (not
| true)
|
| - the classic Apple forum response of "why would you want
| to do that?"
|
| This turned into a bit of a rant but I'll conclude the
| thought by saying that there's certainly some sort of happy
| medium between a gajillion buttons on the remote and lack
| of absolutely critical functionality. In fact if you invest
| a bit of extra money into the Sideclick add-on to Apple TV
| remote you achieve exactly that.
| olliej wrote:
| Personally I find the problem with the apple remote to be
| the symmetric design (I would have though the puck mouse
| would have taught that lesson)
| banana_giraffe wrote:
| I put some gaffer tape on the bottom of my Apple TV
| remote to make it obvious which end is up. I'm personally
| not a fan of the touchpad. In principle, it's a decent
| solution to the problem, but Apple's implementation is
| somehow not sensitive enough and too sensitive at the
| same time.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| This, it's like the designers tested it only outdoors.
|
| Who would've thought it's necessary to be able to grab
| the remote when it's dark and know what orientation it is
| in.
| vetinari wrote:
| That's why I love the Nvidia Shield remote. It is
| triangle shaped, and it has accelerometer that lights up
| the buttons once you grab and move it.
| SOLAR_FIELDS wrote:
| I bought some silicon sleeves that fix this issue (the
| bottom half of the remote face with no buttons is covered
| by silicon). It also resolve the issue that the remote is
| very slippery in your hands as well as the issue of being
| unable to tell which remote goes where if you have
| multiple Apple TV's (you can get different color silicon
| for each TV).
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| This is a great suggestion, but it is also surprising
| that it is necessary.
| Zardoz84 wrote:
| I remember a universal remote that I had on the 90s to
| control my small bedroom CRT TV. it has only 7 buttons,
| and had mute button.
| dexterdog wrote:
| I never use the mute button. I just turn the volume down
| because I know where that button is without looking.
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| Amazon FireTV remote is pretty good, latest gen added a
| volume control inc. mute button (so you don't need your TV
| remote). Source switching uses CEC over HDMI. You don't
| need to point the controller for most tasks as it's
| Bluetooth. If I had a TV that used CEC I wouldn't need the
| original remote at all.
| amelius wrote:
| > I wish Apple would just make a TV.
|
| But that would be a TV which you can't use to watch adult
| content. And Netflix and HBO would be 30% more expensive.
| knolan wrote:
| And yet I can do all of that on my iPad without extra cost.
| ghaff wrote:
| And cast it to a TV using Chromecast and/or Apple TV. I
| basically never use the "smart TV" features on my TV.
| [deleted]
| dwighttk wrote:
| What do you think this device would cost? I'm guessing
| starting around $7999 for 45"
| afterburner wrote:
| OLEDs are much cheaper than that. Or do you mean an Apple
| markup?
| m463 wrote:
| Look at recent trends in the price of the mac pro, or how
| much their headphones cost.
|
| Heck, the _stand_ for the mac pro monitor is $999.
| gowld wrote:
| A tv is not a Mac Pro.
|
| Look at the price of Mac mini.
| atoav wrote:
| The best option that I know of today (in terms of resulting
| usabilty and long term reliability) is using a dumb computer
| monitor and roll the rest yourself with a Raspi.
|
| While this option is certainly not available to all, it is
| the only thing that will really fit your needs. I completely
| gave up on finding anything decent in that market.
| marshmallow_12 wrote:
| Are the graphics on a Raspi really that good?
| gowld wrote:
| Full-screen Streaming is much less compute intensive than
| rendering and compositing.
| atoav wrote:
| A Raspi 4 can run two 4k HDMI streams at once. What do
| you mean?
| pridkett wrote:
| The Raspberry Pi 4 can drive 4k displays and easily run
| Kodi[0].
|
| [0]: https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/build-the-
| ultimate-4k-home-...
| blkhp19 wrote:
| The best for who? This is a ridiculous take, nobody wants
| to roll their own TV UX except HN users looking for a
| weekend project.
|
| What usability / long-term reliability perk does your own
| software running on a RPI have over an Apple TV plugged
| into a dumb TV / monitor?
| mikeryan wrote:
| Or just buy a smart TV and just never connect it to the
| internet.
| gowld wrote:
| That doesn't stop it from spending a minute trying at
| every boot, or from using a cellular whispernet.
| m463 wrote:
| I know plenty of folks who run kodi.
|
| I would say not "hn user" level folks, more like "i have
| a gaming pc".
| atoav wrote:
| The best for _me_ obviously. I was the one who made the
| comment and declaring an object "the best" of any
| category is always a subjective statement.
|
| My own solution has the pros:
|
| - I control precisely what I need and what not, both in
| terms of features and in terms of usability
|
| - I control when it gets changed/updated
|
| - I control which data flows in and out of the system
|
| - Your device is not a brick when the manufacturer
| decides to end the support or shuts down the wrong server
|
| The obvious downside is that it means work and requires a
| certain set of skills. Whether it is worth it or not
| depends on how important that thing is for you and how
| much all the TVs suck at doing what you want in the way
| you want it done.
| smaudet wrote:
| This comment is a part of why TV sucks so hard -
| ridiculous users.
|
| Everyone's idea of 'simple' is rather asinine,
| unimaginative.
|
| The latest Pis come practically preinstalled with
| everything, just have to load Kodi.
|
| But someone who has found 'their' solution i.e. some crap
| by Apple e.g. assumes this is how everything should be...
| And we all get stuck with crappy 'smart' TVs (or don't
| own one - I have survived 10+ years without a TV -
| absolutely nothing about TVs today makes me want one. So
| much hot garbage)
| tfehring wrote:
| In my experience getting Kodi set up is a massive time
| sink, to the point that the programmer time needed to set
| it up would easily double the total cost of a typical
| home theater setup. Admittedly my experience with it is a
| few years out of date, but a quick search for incredibly
| basic functionality like running the big streaming
| services makes it clear that this hasn't really changed.
| On top of most of them being limited to 720p, it looks
| like the canonical solution nowadays is to run them in
| Chrome from Kodi, which (1) phones home to Google, unlike
| an Apple TV and (2) necessitates a mouse or other
| pointing device since you can't rely on "keyboard"
| navigation with a remote - this alone would be a
| dealbreaker for me.
| wlesieutre wrote:
| Google is adding a "dumb TV mode," but I'm skeptical.
|
| https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/the-best-feature-
| of-...
|
| Presumably will still boot slowly and only the topmost UI
| layer loads differently, and until they confirm otherwise I'm
| guessing that even with a simplified UI it still includes all
| the creepy tracking of everything you watch.
| m463 wrote:
| I would imagine people would conflate "dumb tv" with
| privacy (sort of like "incognito"), when google doesn't
| actually say that.
| cactus2093 wrote:
| How will they track you though, some sort of real time
| content id of everything you watch? Is there any evidence
| that they do this? If it's in dumb tv mode and the display
| stream is coming from a separate device like an Apple TV
| then it seems much less trivial to track you than if you're
| using the builtin smart features.
| wlesieutre wrote:
| Yes, they're basically all doing this. "Automatic Content
| Recognition," called various things by the different
| brands, lets them know what you're watching even if it's
| coming from another device over HDMI instead of using the
| TV's apps.
|
| https://www.consumerreports.org/privacy/how-to-turn-off-
| smar...
|
| Android TV might not build it in, but much like android
| phones, you get extra "features" from pretty much every
| OEM.
| Freak_NL wrote:
| They can't. They already used up the name 'Apple TV' for
| another of their products (which oddly enough doesn't
| actually seem to be a TV at all).
| kalleboo wrote:
| Apple TV Pro Max
| oarsinsync wrote:
| "For another" sounds singular. Was that intentional? It's
| already got a plurality of meanings
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21438152
| WalterBright wrote:
| > A remote designed by someone who thought about it for ten
| seconds (why do modern TVs have dozens of buttons no one ever
| uses?).
|
| I'd prefer the remote as an app on my phone. My desk is
| covered with remotes. Remotes are so 1980s :-/
| systemvoltage wrote:
| Physical remote > any app. By far.
|
| Die apps, die. I want dedicated remotes for lights, stereo,
| curtains, garage door, and TV.
|
| Apps won't be around - forget 20 years, 5 years if you're
| lucky. A company can disappear along with its stupid
| fucking app.
|
| About the only advantage an app has is a keyboard.
| [deleted]
| squarefoot wrote:
| > A company can disappear along with its stupid fucking
| app.
|
| Absolutely true, which makes a good argument also for
| going back to websites and pages (HTML5 helps a lot)
| instead of the apps business model that basically brought
| us back to the pre-www era. Also regarding the phone
| (mis)use as remote, why nobody mentions latency? Every
| smartphone I tried had an absolutely atrocious UI latency
| even compared to my 30 years old Amiga 500, why should I
| want to use it instead of a dedicated device that does
| the job immediately and I can substitute with 5EUR, and
| sometimes even repair?
| WalterBright wrote:
| > A company can disappear along with its stupid fucking
| app.
|
| They can also disappear and when you lose your remote,
| too bad. (That's why remotes go for $$ on ebay.)
| benrbray wrote:
| Hi systemvoltage!
|
| We heard you like remotes, so how about a remote with
| dedicated, non-reprogrammable buttons to open apps you
| never use that don't even exist anymore?
|
| Sincerely, Roku
| fossuser wrote:
| Maybe one that isn't tied to a box that stuffs ads in the
| UI?
| systemvoltage wrote:
| How about arrow keys and an ok button?
| benrbray wrote:
| ^ < OK! > v
| jasonkester wrote:
| But have you even seen an app that remained paired to any
| piece of hardware whatsoever for more than a few minutes?
|
| Using any form of technology? Without dropping one side or
| the other into an irreparable state that requires power
| cycling one or both ends at least once and then hoping for
| the best?
|
| It'd be cool if it worked, by my expectation is that it'll
| be implemented by the guy in charge of that YouTube "cast"
| app that has only theoretically worked one time in a lab in
| Palo Alto.
| Lvl999Noob wrote:
| Physical remotes are better, particularly if your hands are
| dirty (like during eating). A physical remote can be used
| easily without looking at it and it can be cleaned later
| easily too. Though it's also true that a lot of remotes are
| difficult to handle.
|
| What we need might actually be a single remote for
| everything.
| yellowapple wrote:
| I'd argue the opposite: in my experience, a uniform glass
| surface is a lot easier to clean (and avoid getting dirty
| in the first place) than some bumpy surface with crevices
| into which crumbs inevitably sneak in.
|
| Re: a single remote for everything, the term for that is
| "universal remote", and not once have I been satisfied
| with one due to the difficulty and fragility of
| programming it. Maybe in this day and age we can finally
| make that programming dead simple and robust; Logitech
| came close with its universal remote from years ago, but
| even that still wasn't quite easy enough to setup and use
| to fully replace all my remotes. That HDMI-CEC or
| whatever it's called also comes close, but it's
| restricted to HDMI, obviously leaving non-HDMI devices in
| the dust.
| nitrogen wrote:
| A lot of the responses disagree. I generally prefer
| physical remotes, but a touchscreen remote could be pretty
| sweet for very complex systems (think whole-room/whole-
| house systems that integrate A/V with lighting, HVAC, etc.)
| _if_ implemented well. But the whole interaction model with
| phones and apps is just... _wrong_ for this usecase. The
| delays, the many swipes and taps just to get to the right
| screen, the delays, waiting for the app to load and connect
| to the network, and also the delays.
|
| I've been meaning to hack an old phone to be an instant-on
| remote with some custom software, but there are always
| dozens of higher priority projects. If anyone wants to
| hire/partner with me to build such a thing though...
| pards wrote:
| Logitech's line of Harmony remotes were (are?) great for
| this. Physical buttons, programmable sequences, and a
| touch screen.
| ramraj07 wrote:
| You'd prefer it until you try using it. When you want to
| reduce the volume the last thing you need to do is go
| looking for the app. Now a watch app, that's something.
| scatters wrote:
| For that situation, wouldn't you use voice control? I can
| say "OK Google mute" in less time than it takes to reach
| for a remote.
| hnlmorg wrote:
| Sure. Assuming your voice assistant works first time.
| Otherwise the dialog would go a little more like this:
|
| Me OK Google mute
|
| Me> OK...Google....mute
|
| Me> OKGOOGLE mute
|
| G> Sorry, I don't understand
|
| Me> mute...
|
| Me> MUTE MUTE MUTE MUTE MUTE
|
| Me> OKGOOGLE MUTE
|
| G> What would you like to mute?
|
| Me> The TV
|
| Me> Mute the fucking TV Google
|
| Me> OKGOOGLE MUTE THE FUCKING TV
|
| G> Sorry, I don't understand
|
| Me> Fuck it. I should have just looked for the controller
| to begin with.
| BrandoElFollito wrote:
| This comedy piece usually sends my family into laughter
| when I try to ask Google Auto to play a song or to call
| someone.
|
| I end up with some vulgarities and ask my children to do
| it the old fashioned way (that is to tap the name on
| their phones, not to use smoke signals)
| hef19898 wrote:
| I stopped wondering where kids pick up vulgarities after
| I caught myself years ago yelling at a guy in another
| car.
|
| And we usually end up insulting Alexa as well.
| aconsult1 wrote:
| I got into a very similar conversation with Chase's robo
| call the other day. Went like this:
|
| C: bla bla bla, if you want to speak to a representative
| say "representative".
|
| Me: representative
|
| C: sorry i couldn't understand, please chose an option or
| say representative to speak with one
|
| Me: re-pre-sen-ta-tive
|
| C: (same answer as before)
|
| Me: REPRESENTATIVE
|
| C: (same answer as before)
|
| Me: GO FUCK YOURSELF
|
| C: Ok, I'll call a representative
|
| I want to believe that their system either sensed the
| tension in my voice or saw the expletive and decided to
| call for adult supervision.
|
| I'm not an native English speaker so I have an accent
| (which isn't too heavy, but still). Using any form of
| speech recognition is an instant fuck-show.
| gowld wrote:
| The standard polite way to request an agent is: "operator
| operator fuck fuck fuck"
| bitwize wrote:
| If I roar "I WANT TO SPEAK TO A HUMAN" into the phone,
| this works about 66% of the time.
| yellowapple wrote:
| My HTC One M8 back in the day shipped with a universal
| remote app that used the built-in IR blaster and it was
| fantastic. HTC's subsequent discontinuation of that app
| (and its replacement with a third-party app that was
| basically useless) is what immediately drove me to never
| want to buy an HTC product again.
| hnlmorg wrote:
| I had that phone too and I vaguely recall that wasn't
| HTC's decision to cripple the IR but rather the result of
| HTC infringing someone else's (because naturally someone
| would have a patent about something as obvious as using a
| smart phone as an IR remote....)
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| we measure innovation by the number of patents given, so
| gotta keep up the statistics
| nanidin wrote:
| On iPhone, there is a built in remote app in control
| center, then you use the volume buttons on the phone to
| adjust the TV volume. It's part of the OS, not the remote
| app from the App Store, and I've found it to be a good
| fit for those emergency volume adjustments. Sharing so
| others can benefit from what took me a while to discover
| :)
| jedberg wrote:
| The AppleTV lets you use your iPhone as a remote. I
| _always_ reach for the physical remote first. The phone
| remote is just a huge pain -- the physical remote just
| works.
| culturestate wrote:
| _> The best available option today is LG and it's still laden
| with ads and takes a few seconds to boot up._
|
| Sharp offers (most of) their range as dumb TVs[1]. They still
| take a few seconds to turn on, but not notably longer than a
| typical computer monitor.
|
| 1. https://sg.sharp/products/tv?filters%5B33%3A36%5D=33%3A36
| kccqzy wrote:
| In the U.S., Sharp TVs aren't actually made by Sharp. They
| are made by Hisense and then rebranded Sharp. The link you
| posted is the Singapore site.
|
| https://www.wsj.com/articles/sharp-to-americans-you-dont-
| wan...
| culturestate wrote:
| I had no idea that was a thing, though it's not
| altogether surprising given where Sharp was back then.
|
| At any rate, according to Google it seems to be over[1]
| and Sharp took back control in 2019.
|
| 1. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-sharp-hisense-
| idUSKCN1SE1...
| nitrogen wrote:
| _> In 2015, Sharp signed a deal with Hisense giving the
| Chinese company the right to use the Sharp name on TVs
| sold in the U.S. through 2020._
|
| Hopefully that means there are better options this year?
| ksec wrote:
| As much as I want this to happen. And I have been advocating
| for it [1] for many years. The more I read into the whole TV,
| display panel and electronic industry the grimmer it is for
| such Apple TV set to exist.
|
| An Apple branded TV, even if it is without the TV part or
| just a monitor would have to be _at least_ 2-3x the price of
| today 's similar TV sets. And if anything OP were only
| willing to paid an extra $100 is probably why Apple didn't
| make one.
|
| Some of the TV in the industry isn't just on Low Margin. They
| are entering negative margin territory if you are discounting
| Data Selling and software / partner sponsorship.
|
| Unless the cost electronic part continue to raise to the
| point where Apple has an advantage with their SoC.
|
| I think one of their original purpose or intention for ProXDR
| was the use the Dual Layer LCD technology to create something
| like a true Reference Display Monitor. But the technology and
| cost never got to that point. At least I hope they could
| continue their investment in that area even if they do not
| intend it to be in consumer usage.
|
| [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10710734
| TylerE wrote:
| The thing is, Apple _could_ charge 2-3x, because the prices
| have gotten so cheap.
|
| People would absolutely pay $1000-1200 for a 55" Apple TV
| with nice software, and maybe a nice brushed aluminum frame
| that looks nice on the wall.
|
| (For comparison, the cheapest 55" I could quickly find from
| a major retail is around $300, with a "name brand" starting
| around $400).
| fossuser wrote:
| Agreed - Apple could easily charge 3-5k. The LG TVs I
| mentioned cost that much.
|
| They could offer three sizes. Mini, Normal, Max.
|
| They could use it as a jumping off point to own the
| "living room" if they wanted.
| ksec wrote:
| All OLED TV, including non LG OLED currently ships about
| 5M unit per year. The volume of those high price range
| OLED are tiny in total shipping volume.
|
| And if that specific LG model charges 3 to 5K, Apple will
| have to sell it at 6 to 10K.
| fossuser wrote:
| I don't think so - Apple has a better supply chain, more
| committed users, more scale, etc.
| ksec wrote:
| There is only one OLED TV display panel maker. That is
| LG.
|
| Edit: I think I need to spell things out a little more
| clearly. If Apple were to use OLED and aim at a top tier
| market, then it would be competing directly with LG TV,
| which also happens to be gaining momentum in terms of
| both OLED display panel ( LG Display ) and TV set ( LG
| Electronics ). LG Display will also need to built new Fab
| for Apple. The recent expansion at Guangzhou doubling
| their capacity, AFAIK has already been booked and has no
| relation to Apple. i.e LG has little interest to do it
| with Apple given they are already fully booked on
| capacity. And Apple doesn't seems to be interested in
| pushing LG to partner.
|
| The answer to if Apple _could_ do something will always
| going to be yes given they have hundreds of billions of
| cash and has little idea what to do with it other than
| buying back stocks.
|
| The answer to if Apple _will_ do it is always going to
| complex. And nothing in the supply chain and BOM cost
| analysis suggest it is a good strategy worth going for.
|
| I do wish Apple prove wrong though.
| 411111111111111 wrote:
| they were talking about OLEDs, so 3000-5000 would be a
| more realistic estimate with that markup.
| cm2187 wrote:
| ...and that would only play Apple content.
| leadingthenet wrote:
| The Apple TV plays content from other providers just
| fine.
| iso1210 wrote:
| I've got a 3rd generation apple TV, which is EOL and apps
| are being slowly discontinued (no disney, youtube is
| going soon)
|
| However I can still watch Disney on it using airplay from
| my OG iphone SE (2016). As far as consumer electronics
| go, apple is well ahead of the pack.
| onion2k wrote:
| Why would it be 2 or 3 times more? Apple phones are
| between 10 and 15 times the price of the cheapest Android
| alternatives (iPhone 12 $999 from Apple, Samsung Galaxy
| A01 $55 from Amazon). Apple could, and probably would,
| sell a $4000 television.
| ksec wrote:
| 2x to 3x at a comparable model on Hardware level.
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| What? Just no, that's like how a Vespa moped an
| alternative to a Porsche car?
| dijit wrote:
| Which puts it in spitting distance of some of the highest
| end Samsung TVs (or short throw projectors) anyway.
|
| (Samsung LSP7 is $3,500)
| adtac wrote:
| The $300 TV that you found probably has poor audio,
| viewing angle, contrast ratio, support, etc. From the
| limited research I did before buying my TV, a 55" TV with
| good reviews for panel and sound quality that you can
| rely on for 5-10 years costs C$1,200 today.
| ghaff wrote:
| Good sound probably requires a sound bar. I'm not sure
| the physics of flat panel TVs allows for great sound
| quality. Getting a sound bar went from me mostly using my
| wall mounted TV as a digital picture frame (which was my
| primary thinking when I bought it) to actually being the
| TV I use for streaming most of the time.
|
| 5-10 years? I know I'm not on the latest technology step.
| But 4K isn't worth me upgrading perfectly functional TVs.
| Maybe if we get to reasonably priced OLED panels but I'm
| not in a big hurry to upgrade TVs that are working.
| throwawei369 wrote:
| I disagree, 4K HDR even on LCD panels is worth the
| picture. And a major jump from 1080p. Though what I agree
| with you about is the OLED prices. Been ages and still no
| indication of the prices climbing down.
| friseurtermin wrote:
| I fully agree about dumb TVs for personal use. Even having to
| wait for your TV's OS to boot up when you turn it on is a
| terrible UX.
|
| However, when it comes to buying a TV for your conference room
| where you have a TV running 12hrs/day (when you're not a small
| startup with 10ppl), invest in a proper commercial TV like NEC or
| (my personal favorite brand) iiyama: 1) the're dumb TVs from the
| start, 2) you get proper warranties and support, 3) you can get
| larger TVs without 4K HDR (which your computer may not support
| anyway), 4) the color grading is more apt for your PowerPoint
| slides, etc and finally, 5) these panels are actually rated for
| that kind of use and won't break after a few weeks. From my
| experience building conference rooms, that investment is actually
| worth it
| 1-6 wrote:
| NEC's are expensive so it'll be tougher passing approval at the
| expense department.
|
| This smart TV business has to end, I have a Samsung "The Frame"
| and it looks a lot like those NEC's you're mentioning. In fact,
| it's the perfect conference TV. The problem is that when I keep
| it disconnected from the Internet, I get a message on screen
| every time I power it off. I'm going to try changing the region
| to a more internet-sparse region to see if that helps.
| tbihl wrote:
| Maybe you could give it your wifi password and block all
| traffic at the router?
| rurban wrote:
| The problem is not the mere boot time of your SmartTV. You are
| waiting for the SmartTV to send your viewing profile home.
| That's a lot of data. Before that the UI stays frozen. In
| earlier SmartTV OS versions it was immediate startup, the delay
| only started some years ago. Never upgrade your OS.
|
| Maybe they are even sending home recorded audio of what you did
| in your bedroom, that long it lasts.
| zapdrive wrote:
| Citation needed. There's no evidence that any TV sends this
| data at boot (and frankly there's no need to, it can send
| this data later on).
| gowld wrote:
| It's also not a lot of data, of course. "Viewing data" is
| under a megabyte.
| rurban wrote:
| No citation possible, because the data is encrypted. What
| is measurable is the delayed startup. Of course they can
| send the data later, but that's not what is measured.
| zinekeller wrote:
| Not saying that they don't send data at startup (but it
| is more likely that it will be delayed by around a minute
| or two), but not acknowledging that dumb (OLED/LCD)
| televisions' faster boot times is simply due to having
| literally fewer functions is missing the bush. Even well-
| optimized embedded Linux still takes around 5 seconds to
| boot to init whereas dumb TVs are already (usually)
| finished in 3 seconds.
| anticristi wrote:
| Don't SmartTV manufacturers risk getting fried with GDPR? If I
| didn't consent to the TV phoning home my habits, then it is
| legally not allowed to do so.
|
| Remember when Google got fined 50 megaeuros? They sent location
| data despite user opt-out. I guess Samsung wants to be more
| popular than Google.
| joney_baloney wrote:
| Saw this just after reading this post. Not a bad development.
|
| https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/the-best-feature-of-...
| smitty1e wrote:
| Uh-huh. Until Google decides to alter the bargain in accordance
| with paragraph 3.5.34.3.67.2 of the User Agreement.
| joney_baloney wrote:
| More than likely.
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| Pray that I don't alter it further.
| smitty1e wrote:
| Will we eventually arrive at a product spectrum, where customers
| can have the desired level of network integration for cel phone,
| camera, car, television, software, etc?
|
| We use the same word for governance as we do for data: the state.
|
| Having a hardcopy DVD, a dump player, and a dumb TV allows you to
| partake of the state you own without the State (or its BigTech
| owners) hassling you.
|
| Much to be said for that.
| Abishek_Muthian wrote:
| I'm tracking the need gap for dumb TVs on my problem validation
| platform[1], I'm adding links to high quality dumb TVs there as
| and when I find them. Please do let me know if you come across
| good dumb TVs which should be added there.
|
| [1] 'Make TV dumb again': https://needgap.com/problems/64-make-
| tv-dumb-again-privacy-c...
| the_only_law wrote:
| Last time this topic came up, I asked about the idea of a company
| producing dumb TV. I know a number of "normal" people who don't
| particularly care for internet connectivity in anything so I was
| curious why no one was doing it, at least not with the sizes and
| resolutions you see on top of the line TVs.
|
| Apparently the margins on commodity hardware like TVs are too
| small. Someone did bring up and interesting idea of running a
| batch released product based on something like a Kickstarter
| though.
| julianlam wrote:
| The article mentions Sceptre TV, which is doing just that.
| lbotos wrote:
| These displays exist now. "Digital Information Displays".
|
| Example search here: https://www.cdw.com/Search/computer-
| monitors-displays/large-...
|
| Looks like you can't check out without an account, but I'm sure
| you could find a shop that would sell you one.
|
| Here is a basic one:
| https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1242029-REG/samsung_3...
|
| It looks like since I last checked the "smart" is creeping in,
| but these are designed to "accept input, and display it" so
| it's as close as we can get without custom manufacturing.
| randallsquared wrote:
| If I understand correctly that these are all roughly
| comparable TVs as far as the viewing is concerned, the
| comparison at https://www.bestbuy.com/site/compare?skus=64064
| 18,6325571,64... really highlights that the smart features
| subsidize the TV!
| reaperducer wrote:
| Thanks for the link. They're not nearly as expensive as I
| thought they'd be.
|
| A Samsung at 55 inches for $600 is perfect for my needs.
|
| So much for the lie about TVs need ads to keep the price
| reasonable.
| AndrewUnmuted wrote:
| These kinds of displays are not really calibrated to present
| television and cinema video content. Watching long-form
| visual media on these kinds of displays could be a
| frustrating experience - at least, these have been my prior
| results.
| fock wrote:
| though if you just compare specs and ad-copy, you can just
| get a one designed for indoors and control room
| applications. Which behaves like a typical TV priced around
| 20-30% below. At least this seems true for the samsung
| lineup, which roughly looked like "cheapest option (for
| sure not worse than their awful 350$ TVs) < 24/7, medium
| brightness (got that and it's super nice in a bright living
| room, also non "calibration" issues ) < high end, QLED" -
| this mirrors their "normal" lineup very closely and I think
| economies of scale dictate that they won't use custom
| panels (as indicated by their yearly update of this bland,
| simple to understand lineup) so I guess these won't be any
| worse than what you get in a TV. Backlights are obviously
| not tuned for super-highend-HDR, but I don't think people
| here complaining about ads are in the market for that and
| full sRGB is pretty ok on a device which just works (no
| banding, no ads, no "image-improvement" algos in the
| background).
| foresto wrote:
| Is there any reason that this wouldn't be solved by
| spending an hour with a colorimeter? Do these displays not
| expose any calibration controls?
| phkahler wrote:
| Any manufacturer could release a dumb model at a higher price
| and advertise it as such.
| Quequau wrote:
| I have been using a living room PC on my TV for many years. I
| found it worth the extra expense and added workflow... but I
| don't watch cable or sat TV, so I don't know how to integrate
| them into my setup.
| sharkweek wrote:
| Bought a new smart TV a few months ago.
|
| The move for me was never, not even at setup, connecting my new
| TV to wifi and simply routing everything through the Apple TV.
|
| Seems to be working great so far at avoiding a lot of common
| "smart TV" problems.
| alacombe wrote:
| Do you inspect all traffic going through ? I'll NEVER trust my
| TV to be "connected", I basically use all my "TV" as monitors
| for a raspi or chromecast.
| wmf wrote:
| Coincidentally, Google just announced a "basic TV" mode, although
| we don't know what TVs will ship with this feature.
| https://9to5google.com/2021/02/24/google-tv-basic-tv-mode/
|
| Maybe Framework's next product should be a dumb TV, perhaps based
| on the latest LG OLED panels.
| nrp wrote:
| It was on the long list of product categories we explored from
| a distance for our roadmap. It's not a category we're going to
| enter any time soon, but we did at least get a blog post out of
| it!
|
| In addition to not having the ecosystem network effects from
| modules and upgrades that notebooks (our first category) have,
| TVs are extremely difficult logistically. You need to be able
| to get really great financing terms and freight rates to be
| able to have huge thousand dollar objects sitting on boats,
| trains, and trucks for weeks at a time.
| unwiredben wrote:
| Roku TVs have had this from the start. When you first setup (or
| factory reset) the TV, you can choose to not connect it to a
| network. In that state, neither WiFi or Ethernet are routable,
| so no data leaves the TV. The TV does broadcast a private WifI
| network used for pairing RF remotes. Roku releases USB updates
| for the TVs periodically, usually a little while after a major
| release has been released over the network to all units, but
| those updates usually aren't needed for unconnected use unless
| there's some issue with OTA reception or HDMI that were found
| in the field.
| karolist wrote:
| I've been hunting and buying old (~2008-2012) Panasonic plasma
| TV's off my local craigslist alternative. They were the best in
| business as far as plasma screens go and the build quality is
| insane. Colour reproduction is very natural and deep blacks are
| just wow, only the OLEDs beat it but I'm not sold on the
| longevity of OLED screens yet. For example I bought Panasonic
| TH-42PZ85EA for $30, plugged in an STB for IPTV in one port,
| Chromecast in another and that's all the smart features I need,
| there's still a 3rd HDMI port in case you'd want to plug in a
| game console.
| listic wrote:
| Isn't plasma screen susceptible to burn-out?
|
| What search terms do you use?
| karolist wrote:
| It is but much of that is overblown because of really old
| plasma screens - early 2000s and such. Some manufacturers
| dealt with it better than others. If you're buying an old
| plasma without burn-in after ~10 years of use with minimal
| attention you'll be OK. I make sure not to leave paused frame
| for longer than 30m periods and enable screensavers where
| possible. You sometimes can see contours of an image after
| turning off the TV if the image was still for some time but
| they fade away quickly and not cause any artefacts.
| Chromecast has a screensaver, my STB as well. Things like
| channel logos are not a problem even after long viewing
| sessions. I've had Panasonic and LG plasmas. They do draw
| much more power (150-300W) and in case of active cooling you
| can hear the fans just slightly but otherwise, to me, it's a
| steal at these prices for this image quality.
|
| EDIT: I search for "panasonic plasma" and make sure it's at
| least 1920x1080 screen and try to buy it under $50, so far
| I've bought a few for family and one for the holiday cabin.
| listic wrote:
| Thanks for the tips! I see someone selling '11gen 200Hz'
| plasma, where does that stand?
| karolist wrote:
| I personally can vouch for old Panasonics, anything else
| is probably not worth the hassle. Just make sure it's FHD
| screen, has HDMI ports and it's a Panasonic - you can't
| go wrong. 11gen probably refers to G11, which you want to
| target at the oldest, the TV I've wrote about is a G11
| panel.
|
| www.avforums.com/threads/g11-panasonic-plasma-
| release.754974/
| arh68 wrote:
| Plasma & _burn-in_ : I have a '13 Panasonic Viera VT60 with
| 10,000 hours, no real burn in. I've got a '08 Viera and it's
| fine, too. I actually bought it with a vertical line
| malfunctioning, and it's seemingly sorted itself out (looks
| fine now). No dead pixels, no burn in, tens of thousands
| hours.
|
| If I watch 24 hours of CS:GO, the white scoreboard text will
| be visible, but if I turn to max brightness/contrast and play
| Mad Max for 24 hours, it's always come back to normal.
|
| The panels do get hot, though. That part's always been real.
| marstall wrote:
| agreed! the pioneer kuro line was considered the high-end
| during this era. owned one myself. skin tones were blotchy
| compared to the Sony Trinitron I also had at the time but
| otherwise pretty good, far superior to LCD.
| yellowapple wrote:
| I definitely second the Sceptre recommendation. Yeah, there are
| probably higher-quality displays out there, but my TV's been more
| than good enough for me, and the price point is pretty hard to
| beat. In terms of bang for the buck, a Sceptre TV and a box/stick
| of one's choosing is about as close to ideal as I've seen these
| days.
|
| Hopefully they realize that the lack of smarts in their TVs is
| indeed a differentiator in a market flooded with "smart" TVs, and
| that they maintain that differentiator and resist the urge to
| copy everyone else.
| withinboredom wrote:
| If you're in the market for speakers, trying to find ones
| without "bluetooth" or "Alexa" support is just as difficult. I
| ended up buying speakers built for computers because they were
| simple and dumb and just played sound.
| vhanda wrote:
| I don't quite follow the problems with having bluetooth
| support. Could you please elaborate?
| ajot wrote:
| Not OC, but I guess that if you're using Bluetooth, you
| depend on whatever DAC they've put onto the speaker, which
| may or may not be good enough for your taste.
| fock wrote:
| well, there's plenty of passive speakers which you can hook
| up to any amplifier from the last 50 years.
| bigtiger wrote:
| I have the 65" 4k model and I couldn't be happier. I bought it
| for 350 dollars from Wal-Mart's website. I even use it as my
| all-day monitor for work.
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