[HN Gopher] The Mac price crash of 2021
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The Mac price crash of 2021
Author : blinding-streak
Score : 49 points
Date : 2021-02-27 18:11 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.zdnet.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.zdnet.com)
| rubicon33 wrote:
| Slightly off topic but - Does anyone here have an opinion on
| whether or not it's a good idea to update to an M1 macbook?
|
| I'm usually weary of GEN1 products, but it's been hard for me to
| hold off on picking up one of these. The performance boosts seem
| to be quite impactful in a daily workflow especially if you're
| compiling a lot of code regularly.
|
| I'd be upgrading from a late 2015, 15" non-dedicated GPU macbook
| pro. It works fine and I don't really have any complains other
| than of course I'd love if it were faster. Since I'm on my
| computer all the time, removing sources of friction are
| important.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| For myself, I run dual 4K displays and the M1-based laptops
| don't support that.
| jurmous wrote:
| They do support it with display link.
| https://www.macrumors.com/2020/11/24/m1-macs-able-to-run-
| six...
| RyanShook wrote:
| I would go ahead and upgrade. For the cost of a MacBook Air
| your experience will improve a ton.
| smoldesu wrote:
| I've got an M1 MBA that work sent me for debugging, it spends
| most of it's time collecting dust. Granted, I'm not a big fan
| of MacOS, but this computer isn't doing much to change that.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| They only have 8 GB of RAM don't they? Seems like a major
| limiting factor for many applications at the moment.
| Jtsummers wrote:
| 16GB is the max configuration option.
| perardi wrote:
| Both the Air and Pro have a 16GB option.
|
| https://www.apple.com/macbook-air/specs/
|
| https://www.apple.com/mac/compare/?modelList=MacBookPro-13_1.
| ..
| [deleted]
| dkjaudyeqooe wrote:
| I wouldn't right now. First versions after a major update tend
| to be disappointing compared to what comes afterward. It's
| usually a good idea to wait until the next refresh.
| Wowfunhappy wrote:
| If you don't have any complaints, I don't think it's a bad idea
| to wait a bit longer for the second gen.
| qbasic_forever wrote:
| The only downsides would be if you need to produce or deal with
| architecture-specific binaries. For example if you build
| container images or native code on your machine and ship them
| up to AWS, Google, etc. to run your service.
|
| With the change to ARM you'll now build an ARM container (or
| exe, etc.) and it won't run on Intel or AMD-based servers.
| You'll need to invest time figuring out Rosetta 2, cross-
| compilation, QEMU, and other multi-architecture workarounds to
| produce non-native binaries. It's not difficult or particularly
| confusing once you understand all the moving parts, but it has
| tripped a lot of people up who thought things would just
| magically work.
|
| If you're dealing with particularly gnarly messes of complex
| build systems with obfuscated and obtuse decades old makefile
| messes it can be quite daunting to add cross compilation and
| multiarch support. But most codesbases aren't like that and
| you'll probably be fine. Interpreted and JIT-compiled languages
| like Python, Node, etc. are generally smooth sailing (unless
| you link to native code). Modern systems languages like Go,
| Rust, etc. are very easy to cross compile. With C/C++ you're up
| against a bit more pain depending on how nice your build system
| behaves (but let's be honest if you're dealing with a C/C++
| codebase in 2021 you're used to some pain).
|
| The inverse problem is also now true. If you pull down a
| container image, download a binary, etc. it ideally has to be
| ARM to work. Rosetta 2 can help in the short term to get Intel
| dependencies working, but again there will need to be some work
| done to get the dependency moved to multiarch and ARM support.
|
| There's also a major gap in this story if anyone on your team
| is using Intel machines. There is no good equivalent to Rosetta
| 2 for Intel--i.e. those Intel users are going to have trouble
| making an ARM binary or container that your mac can consume.
| You're going to have to coach them up and walk them through
| using something like QEMU to achieve this goal (this might not
| be easy, be warned). IMHO it will be easier to push this load
| onto your CI system (assuming it can support building ARM) so
| that people just push source code from their machines and CI
| takes care of ensuring Intel, ARM, etc. builds are available to
| everyone.
|
| If this sounds like a lot of issues, try to stay on the happy
| path of using one architecture everywhere. M1 macs + AWS
| Graviton 2 instances in AWS is 100% ARM64 all the way and
| really something incredible once you live in that world. Other
| cloud providers (ahem Azure?? Google??) need to get their act
| together and get ARM64 instances available yesterday.
| jurmous wrote:
| You can build a multi-platform docker container which runs on
| multiple platforms thanks to the buildx command:
| https://www.docker.com/blog/multi-platform-docker-builds/
| Already many docker images are published with both x86-64 and
| arm64.
| qbasic_forever wrote:
| Yep, the tooling is still lagging a bit in this regard so
| just be prepared to deal with confusing errors (invalid
| image format, etc.) when multiarch isn't available.
| Docker's manifest command is useful to see if a container
| has ARM builds: https://docs.docker.com/engine/reference/co
| mmandline/manifes...
| BGthaOG wrote:
| I have heard complaints when it comes to local development of
| apps running Python. Seems from [1] any version older than
| Python 3.9.1 may have problems:
|
| "Python v3.9.1 becomes the first version of the language to
| support macOS 11 Big Sur. The developers note that the release
| is made possible thanks to Xcode 11..."
|
| [1] https://www.techradar.com/news/you-can-now-run-python-on-
| app...
| fmajid wrote:
| 2.7's ctypes doesn't compile on M1, for instance.
| boxed wrote:
| News to me! I'm on 3.8 on an M1. Works fine.
| bartvk wrote:
| The M1 MBP can't drive more than external screen, that's
| something to think about.
| jurmous wrote:
| You can connect up to five external screens on the M1 MacBook
| Pro. https://www.macrumors.com/2020/11/24/m1-macs-able-to-
| run-six...
| cranekam wrote:
| The extra grunt is impressive. On my old 2018 MBA playing Zwift
| on medium quality graphics would cause the fans to howl. My new
| M1 MBA will run Zwift on high quality graphics, at 2-3x the
| frame rate, and be 70% idle. Of course, the fans are quiet
| because there aren't any.
| kcartlidge wrote:
| I'm a few months in on my M1 Air 8GB base model. To fund it I
| sold a 2020 Intel Air (before the prices started dropping) and
| a ThinkPad L14. I have no regrets.
|
| For context, I'm a dev. I do DotNet Core, Node, Go, Python, and
| Ruby. All of them are far faster than previously on the Intel
| Air, and at least as fast as the L14 with its 16GB and Ryzen 7
| Pro. The only performance downside being an initial hit of up
| to a second or two for the tooling the first time it's used
| since the last restart (whilst it does its Rosetta wonders).
| Everything is working as it should, although I have no current
| need for Docker so can't comment on the progress of that. I had
| some issues getting Homebrew using ARM versions of stuff (I
| think, it was a while ago now) but otherwise life is good.
|
| The biggest benefit for me, though, is that unlike previously I
| am getting this enhanced performance from a stone-cold fanless
| machine with a battery life good enough that I only plug it in
| daily out of habit (I could easily go several days without).
|
| Two ports is enough (for me) - bear in mind that really _is_
| two ports, as mostly there is no need to be connected to the
| power so you don 't lose one during the day.
|
| The keyboard isn't a patch on the ThinkPads, obviously, but its
| the proper Apple standard not the dodgy one from a few years
| back. Feels good, slightly shallow travel. One oddity is there
| are no longer hotkeys to control key backlights. Unless you
| open the settings, MacOS does it automatically. I didn't think
| I'd like that, but it works consistently well.
|
| BTW in the couple of months I've had it, I've had three lock-
| ups. All when running JetBrains IDEs as it happens, but that's
| Java for you. Rebooting is quick enough that it wasn't an
| issue.
| burnthrow wrote:
| Wait for a screen larger than 13"!
| cjohansson wrote:
| The lack of control over hardware and software on contemporary
| Macs is a show-stopper for me. Once they get back to Snow Leopard
| ideology I'll return, until then it's Linux or Windows for me
| jonplackett wrote:
| What exactly is it you don't like?
| fmajid wrote:
| Fears were that they would be locked down like iPhones are,
| but there is Asahi Linux running on M1 already, and OpenBSD
| soon.
| dangus wrote:
| This is a weird attitude I've seen where Snow Leopard is
| worshipped as "the greatest macOS version there ever was."
|
| Apple's design philosophy isn't particularly different from
| that time. Snow Leopard was something of a feature freeze to
| make up for deficiencies with Leopard.
|
| Apple was never some pariah of hardware and software
| flexibility. If you had a PowerPC Mac or older you dealt with
| all kinds of incompatibilities from different peripherals,
| floppy disk formats, and physical connectors.
|
| The interoperability of Macs is the best it's ever been,
| especially since Apple no longer deals with a <5% market share
| like the 1990s.
| Wowfunhappy wrote:
| I can't say for sure what aspect of "Snow Leopard design
| philosophy" the GP was referring to, but since they also
| mentioned "lack of control over hardware and software",
| that's one thing that comes to mind.
|
| I don't think enough people appreciate just how beautifully
| hackable OS X used to be. The Library folder was unhidden by
| default, basically inviting users to go explore their
| systems. Applescript and Automator were treated as first-
| class citizens, offering an easy way to extend existing apps.
| Custom themes--while never officially supported--were easy to
| make via a bit of file replacement, and there seems to have
| been quite a lot of them, if DeviantArt is any indication.
| And there was nothing to stop you from writing and loading
| your own drivers to add support for new hardware, as plenty
| of enthusiasts did.
|
| Today, stock apps like Music store data in obtuse and non-
| human-readable locations, Apple Events are virtually useless
| due to mandatory permission dialogs, kernel extensions are
| deprecated, and the root filesystem is mounted via a complex
| snapshot mechanism in which a reboot is required for changes
| to take effect.
|
| Perhaps this was always Apple's goal. Perhaps it was
| necessary for security. Perhaps, for a majority of users, it
| ultimately provides a better experience. But if you are
| someone who likes to tweak and customize your machine, OS X
| _used_ to be a great home, in a way that it isn 't today.
| TheCoelacanth wrote:
| > Snow Leopard was something of a feature freeze to make up
| for deficiencies with Leopard.
|
| Could that be an indication that users don't really want new
| features in their OS?
| auggierose wrote:
| What you want and what you need are two different things
| ;-)
| cammikebrown wrote:
| I've been wanting to get a 2015 MacBook Pro before they switched
| to the worse keyboards, but now I should maybe just look for an
| even newer one...?
| kiddico wrote:
| Still using my 2015 MBP 15" with no issues minus some loss of
| battery life. If you can find one with light usage for cheap it
| might not be a terrible idea.
|
| I don't use mine for CPU intensive tasks though, so YMMV.
| nicoburns wrote:
| Rumour has it that they're planning to bring back all the ports
| in the next version, and that they'll be an 12-core version.
| Personally I'm waiting for that (but then I already have a 2015
| model, so I'm in a good position).
| bonestamp2 wrote:
| > they're planning to bring back all the ports in the next
| version
|
| I'd be surprised if they brought back ALL of the ports. I'm
| guessing they'll bring back the HDMI and the sd card slot
| (although probably microSD this time).
| nicoburns wrote:
| Yeah, probably not all of them. I'd certainly be surprised
| to see usb-A. The rumours I heard said the magsafe port
| would be back too though.
| bonestamp2 wrote:
| I loved magsafe at the time, but I can't decide if I want
| magsafe now. It's pretty nice being able to charge most
| devices in my bag with the same USB-C cord. If they had a
| magnetic breakaway connection in the middle of a USB-C
| cord, that would be the best of both worlds.
| sokoloff wrote:
| I held onto my old one until the 2019s came out. I'm happy with
| my decision to wait and also with the 2019 MBPro.
|
| Post-pandemic, I'm almost exclusively typing on a Kinesis, but
| pre-pandemic, I found the laptop keyboard to be okay.
|
| If I'd known we'd have a pandemic, wouldn't be traveling in
| 2020, and that M1s were coming out, I'd have waited longer, but
| I'd probably have made other, more impactful decisions than
| which laptop to buy.
| ThePadawan wrote:
| So overall, a good time to buy an Intel-based MBP to install
| Logic Pro and Photoshop on, then completely disconnect them from
| the Internet?
| H1Supreme wrote:
| Doesn't Photoshop require an internet connection?
| ThePadawan wrote:
| I'm blissfully unaware of the current state of Photoshop.
|
| I've heard nothing but complaints about their licensing, but
| IIRC some older versions (CS6?) still work after only one-
| time activation.
| fmajid wrote:
| Conversely, I expect used Intel MacBook and Mac Mini prices to go
| up when the last models are discontinued in 1-2 years' time, as
| that will be the only way to run x86 virtualization for Windows
| et al.
|
| It's called a dead-cat bounce.
| jonplackett wrote:
| Resale value of the older laptops is still decent. 2013 MacBook
| Pro's still going for PS750 on eBay - For a machine 8 years old?
| I think it only cost PS2000 back then anyway. So that Mac has
| only cost PS13 a month to own.
| lostmsu wrote:
| In U.S. you can get it for $370 (~GBP 265):
| https://www.ebay.com/itm/2013-Apple-MacBook-Pro-13-3-RETINA-...
| jonplackett wrote:
| This is only 13 inch and 8gb ram, small SSD. I'm at least
| talking about decent versions.
|
| Saying that, I still own a MacBook Pro 2013 and a newer 2016
| for from work, and the performance is indistinguishable - so
| maybe PS750 is a good deal.
|
| That is all part of the reason prices stayed high - until
| there was a genuine update.
| burnthrow wrote:
| Nobody's paying that much for a 2013 MBP. The will have to
| lower the price considerably before it's "going."
| jonplackett wrote:
| No they're actually selling. Just saw one go for PS850 a few
| weeks back. And one with only 256gb SSD for PS650. It's
| crazy!
| burnthrow wrote:
| I stand corrected, that is crazy!
| supernova87a wrote:
| I wish articles would be more specific about the loads and use
| cases under which the new Macs shine versus are not much better
| than the old Intel macs.
|
| I thought the main strengths distinguishing the performance of
| the M1 were the idle power chips that saved a lot of energy, and
| the shared CPU/GPU memory. For loads running flat out all the
| time and emphasizing GPU, the difference is not as great, I
| thought?
|
| Apple is still selling Macbooks with Intel inside. That cannot be
| just stupidity, right?
| apozem wrote:
| > Apple is still selling Macbooks with Intel inside. That
| cannot be just stupidity, right?
|
| No, it just means the transition to ARM is not done. At WWDC
| they said it'll take two years to convert the whole product
| line [1]. We are only a few months into that. Judging by the
| last couple years, the Apple HW ship turns slowly, but it does
| turn.
|
| Also, there's no need to be so harsh. When other people do
| something you don't understand, it's bad to assume they're
| stupid. They probably have reasons you don't know about.
|
| [1]: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/06/this-is-apples-
| roadm...
| floatingatoll wrote:
| The article author seems to assume that Apple will steadily
| increase the performance of part or all of their entire product
| line in 2021 with Apple Silicon. Since Apple has been doing
| that with the iPhone for ten years, it's quite reasonable to
| assume this will affect their laptop and desktop lines too.
|
| The first Apple Silicon release is better than nearly
| everything available from Intel. That same first release will
| likely be obsolete by the end of 2021, as Apple advances with
| M1X or M2. That annual obsolescence may well continue for the
| next ten years, too.
|
| So the used Apple laptop market is going to look a lot more
| like the used iPhone market - and in the used iPhone market,
| you get 15% of what you paid, not 85%, because there's an
| endless supply of new phones forcing the used market down.
| qbasic_forever wrote:
| It's not really about the raw speed or single core perf
| anymore. These M1 processors have huge caches and flat-out
| workloads can really scream on them. Apple engineers took a
| holistic approach to optimizing the processor for general
| computing workloads, and it shows.
| kleinsch wrote:
| The only reason they're selling MacBooks with Intel is bc they
| haven't updated the whole line yet. They did the entry level
| models for MacBook, Air, and mini. They'll do the rest when
| they roll out the M1X (higher end first party chip) later this
| year to the rest of the line.
|
| Look up the performance stats, for loads running flat out or
| using GPU, M1 is insanely faster. People are replacing their
| two year old $5K top of the line MacBooks with an entry level
| M1 and seeing massive real world performance gains. That's the
| point of this article - why would anyone pay $2-3K for a used
| 15" MacBook Pro that retailed for $5K in 2018 when they can buy
| an M1 that blows it out of the water brand new for half the
| price?
|
| There are still limiting factors (if you need ports, more RAM,
| etc) since these are entry level models, but the rumors about
| the next gen MBPs coming in H2 of this year sound like they'll
| tackle those easily.
| rubicon33 wrote:
| Would you say it's worth waiting for the M1X if one hasn't
| already picked up an M1?
| jurmous wrote:
| M1X will be a lot faster with multicore loads. So if you
| are daily depending on heavy multi core payloads it will be
| worth the wait.
| dawnerd wrote:
| Oddly M1 macs have also been having pretty deep price cuts
| lately. I get the feeling sales have greatly slowed down past the
| initial burst.
| dangus wrote:
| I think there are two dynamics at play: the weak economy for
| much of the middle class and the jobless rate being higher than
| normal, along with work from home and pandemic aspects of life
| increasing demand for home electronics.
|
| People want computers perhaps more than normal, but do they
| have the money to spend?
|
| I think this is why Apple was advertising Education pricing on
| the M1 Macs the day they came out. They don't care that you
| qualify, it's basically a "buy from Apple directly instead of a
| third party retailer" discount.
|
| This is all just my amateur theory - I think Apple wants to
| keep volumes up and sell _something_ to meet demand.
| Firehawke wrote:
| Yeah, I think it's more that people can't justify what I'd
| call luxury pricing for hardware right now. I'm not aware of
| any significant failures in the M1 design to suggest that
| Apple screwed up hard at least.
|
| When things turn around, I'd expect Apple to pick back up
| pretty well. I'm not an Apple owner nor a fan, but I
| definitely have an interest in watching the evolution of
| these since they're the first real rival to x86 in a long
| time.
|
| There's a real possibility I'll end up going to a future
| Apple, Microsoft (since they're looking into doing their own
| ARM chips now as well), or some other ARM architecture in the
| next 10 years if Intel and AMD can't keep x86 ahead. It looks
| like Intel already lost with almost no hope of getting back
| into a competitive position, so AMD's what I'm watching
| closest on that side.
|
| Also, look, before anyone downvotes me for being Anti-
| Intel(tm), I just want to say that I'm going to remain
| skeptical until Intel can do 2-3 generations of good chips in
| succession without dropping the ball hard. Zen has two or
| three generations of good improvement showing up, and Intel
| _might_ have ONE generation with the newest chips coming out
| but that doesn 't mean they'll keep it up.
|
| If Intel does that, I'll keep them in consideration. Until
| that point.. well, I'm just going to remain skeptical and
| cautious.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| The middle class who still have jobs currently have more
| money than they know what to do with! Markets are soaring and
| personal current accounts are full to bursting, according to
| central banks, as nobody has anything to spend money on. This
| gives me hope for a quick economic bounce-back. It's the
| working class and people who have lost their jobs who are
| seriously struggling. The middle class are fine.
| rienko wrote:
| At our company we have a bunch of Macbook pro 13" with butterfly
| keyboards that nobody wants to use internally, that in combo with
| the new M1s really made the resale value drop, it did leave us
| with a bad taste in the mouth.
| tonyedgecombe wrote:
| Yes, I like to buy my machines 2nd hand but I'm not going to
| touch anything with that keyboard.
| blobbers wrote:
| This guy claims swapping is efficient, yet I see other posts
| saying they're going to blow out in under 2 years due to write
| load on the 8GB versions of the M1 laptops
| heax wrote:
| It does not matter what you think how good the M1 is, what the
| author states is the opinion of the potential buyer of a mac out
| there. I do not see it as so much superior as he does, but the
| prices will crater because most think it is.
| ravi-delia wrote:
| Even if the M1 isn't a complete upending of the Apple line, the
| next generation is expected to be yet _another_ leap from the
| M1. They probably won 't get another jump like that again, but
| 2 is more than enough.
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(page generated 2021-02-27 23:02 UTC)