[HN Gopher] Optimal boarding method for airline passengers (2008)
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Optimal boarding method for airline passengers (2008)
Author : tjalfi
Score : 27 points
Date : 2021-02-27 16:01 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (arxiv.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (arxiv.org)
| coding123 wrote:
| Just drive.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| Across an ocean?
| throwawayboise wrote:
| Best boarding strategy is probably for the average person to lose
| 50 lbs. I've been on planes where some passengers could barely
| squeeze down the aisle to their seats.
| the__alchemist wrote:
| Here's a derivative Youtube video (CGP grey). It visualizes how
| different proposed methods work:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAHbLRjF0vo
| laurent92 wrote:
| The CGP Grey video is particularly visual and well-designed;
| and especially well described is everyone unboarding after each
| experiment, using the slowest method of all.
| scrooched_moose wrote:
| Heck, I'm just impressed with it for acknowledging the family
| issue. Not sure why this is such a popular internet topic, but
| almost none of the treatments I've seen bother considering it.
|
| Any method that starts separating a parent from their 7&9 year
| olds is a non starter. Even telling a married couple they can't
| stand in line together for 20 minutes is going to be unpopular
| and lead to people breaking the system.
| tjalfi wrote:
| (submitter)
|
| That video was where I learned about this paper and the impetus
| for submitting this story.
| davidrupp wrote:
| I worked for several years in the 90's on United Airlines'
| computer reservation system, on the team that managed seat
| reservations. I proposed the window-middle-aisle scheme to a task
| force that wanted to improve boarding times, and they ran a pilot
| for a while, but never implemented it widely, probably because of
| how disruptive it was to groups and families.
|
| Separately, I have done a lot of flying for business, and I've
| lost count of how many times I've seen people put their bags in
| an overhead compartment several rows in front of their assigned
| seat. The best way to speed up boarding would be to eliminate the
| overhead compartment entirely. But I don't expect that ever to
| happen.
| bluejekyll wrote:
| > would be to eliminate the overhead compartment entirely.
|
| I feel like the incentives are backwards, or not aligned.
| Airlines are starting to charge for checked baggage, when the
| overhead compartment is the more valuable asset.
|
| They should charge for the overhead space, you get a tag that
| can be clearly seen from the aisle.
| marcosdumay wrote:
| Checked baggage has a real cost in terms of fuel and aircraft
| performance. You carrying some means the company can not sell
| that same amount as cargo.
|
| Carry-on has costs that fall mostly on the passengers as a
| collective. Even the stop time of the plane is shared with
| other procedures, and more often than not boarding is not the
| bottleneck.
| SilasX wrote:
| Yeah, I've long thought they should charge more for the
| carryon (or at least for its overhead bin space) than for
| checked luggage. The latter is more inconvenient for the
| passenger and imposes fewer real costs on the trip (security
| screening, boarding/deplaning time).
|
| Edit: Earlier discussion:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12439465
| xiphias2 wrote:
| Why is the overhead component more valuable asset?
|
| Every checked in baggage means less cargo on the plane, which
| is lost money for the airline.
| bluejekyll wrote:
| This is a great point. From the airlines perspective this
| is true. From passengers perspective I think it's generally
| opposite?
| xiphias2 wrote:
| Yes
| toast0 wrote:
| > I proposed the window-middle-aisle scheme to a task force
| that wanted to improve boarding times, and they ran a pilot for
| a while, but never implemented it widely, probably because of
| how disruptive it was to groups and families.
|
| I haven't booked tickets in large groups, but usually when I
| fly with family, we're all on the same record and in the same
| row, so we could get lumped into the same group and optimize
| our row individually.
| [deleted]
| prepend wrote:
| It seems to me that the main speed up is people not having to
| get up to let people in. So they could let any group flying
| together with a window go at the same time.
| Steko wrote:
| Optimal boarding in 2020's seems like you use an app and based on
| a party's seating location, need for overhead bin, presence at
| the gate/readiness to board the AI buzzes certain groups into a
| higher priority lane.
| ipnon wrote:
| High speed trains in Taiwan have rotating seats, so if your loved
| one sits in front of you they can rotate their row to face you. A
| similar setup in airplanes would solve the biggest impediment to
| implementing the optimal method, that "I'm not leaving my child!"
| jacquesm wrote:
| There is no way an aircraft seat that can rotate would get
| airline approval for economy class, and then you'd still have
| the problem of getting a seat not facing forward certified.
| Usually the only people in rearward facing seats are airline
| personnel so they can see the cabin and spot issues with the
| passengers.
| MaxBarraclough wrote:
| > There is no way an aircraft seat that can rotate would get
| airline approval for economy class
|
| Why's that?
| jacquesm wrote:
| Because it would mess up in flight service, would be a mess
| when it comes to having people get up and go to the loo,
| would be hard to keep an eye on during ascent/descent and
| so on, and besides it would only work for the outer seats
| of a row, and somehow the geometry of the inner seats would
| have to remain undisturbed (shared arm rests), and that's
| before we get to talk about the weight. It's a funny idea
| which works on trains because the rows are much narrower
| and the weight isn't a consideration, nor do trains
| typically have in transit meal service tray tables mounted
| in the backs of the seats before them.
| rjsw wrote:
| Some military transport aircraft [1] have had all passenger
| seats facing to the rear.
|
| [1]
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_VC10#Military_service
| MaxBarraclough wrote:
| As I understand it, rear-facing feats are generally
| accepted to be safer, but are far worse for airsickness.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Same in vehicles. Another factor: lots of people simply
| prefer to face forward.
| sokoloff wrote:
| I can't imagine the seat pitch in economy on any airliner is
| nearly large enough to permit rotation.
|
| Removing even a single row of seats is probably worse for
| airline economics than the amount by which it would speed
| boarding or add flexibility. (US law also prohibits car seats
| from being installed in rear-facing seats in aircraft; that law
| I think is a slight detriment to safety, but it is the law.)
| tyingq wrote:
| Yeah, it's pretty cool, but wouldn't work with airline seat
| pitch: https://youtu.be/6-ee-eZtUKc
|
| There is a design where the middle seat is further back than
| the aisle and window seats. It would help in a different
| way...it's easier to get in and out of the seats. There's
| even an option to slide the aisle seat in during boarding,
| though I'm somewhat skeptical about that.
|
| It does make the middle seat more desirable than it currently
| is, by making it wider and solving the armrest problem.
| https://www.fastcompany.com/3067612/this-redesigned-
| airplane...
| nsxwolf wrote:
| I am picturing a seat where the seat itself is stationary
| but the back slides forward or back on a track. Tray tables
| could be the style that stow in the seat and flip up and
| over.
| sokoloff wrote:
| If you look at the side view of seated people, the
| incline of the upper body and the nesting of feet under
| legs of next row pax works against you for club seating
| (seating which faces each other) and works for you for
| all forward seating.
|
| If you look at the sibling comment's video, you can see
| that the pelvis of humans seated back-to-back is farther
| apart than what you can achieve in today's all forward-
| facing seating.
|
| People are willing to some extent to nest feet with
| people they know but probably don't want to sit 90deg
| upright for over an hour.
| Izkata wrote:
| Like these (except for the tray):
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxDrPeb2mxs
| dfilppi wrote:
| It would be more efficient to slide out the passenger compartment
| into the terminal for loading and unloading.
| IgorPartola wrote:
| Myth Busters did an episode about this. Basically they found that
| the optimal method mathematically did not get high satisfaction
| marks and the most satisfying method was definitely not the
| fastest. I guess we value fairness more than we value overall
| efficiency.
|
| https://mythresults.com/airplane-boarding
| sneak wrote:
| This is something I find to be true a lot in many different
| places. Humans place outsized (IMO incorrect) value on things
| like fairness, perceived fairness, and sometimes even
| retribution/punishment, in cases where they really do no good
| at all.
|
| Something we failed to shuck when we came down from the trees,
| I guess, to paraphrase Heinlein.
|
| It's sort of crazy how often this comes back up again and again
| once you notice this. Behaviors while driving are another big
| one.
| harha wrote:
| On the fairness aspect: one issue is checking in hand luggage
| and the perception that boarding first will increase the
| chances of avoiding that and the wait at the luggage belt after
| the flight.
|
| There are several things to improve: 1. it would be good to
| inform about the need to check luggage before walking through
| the whole airport or at least giving that option, it's very
| annoying to carry luggage around only for it to be checked in
| at the last moment. 2. incentives would be nice, eg if a flight
| is fully booked, why not add a small amount of extra weight if
| you volunteer to check in the hand luggage. 3. primarily check
| in those who also have checked in luggage. I've often been on
| flights where they check in the hand luggage of some people,
| then you end up waiting with many others who took the hand
| luggage on board and are waiting for checked luggage. 4. Let
| people upgrade for a small fee last minute, say 5-10$ to avoid
| checking in, but only as a last measure.
|
| Once the luggage is dealt with I don't see why anyone would
| care - I'd prefer boarding last in that case.
| easton wrote:
| If you knew you'd be able to check your too big to carryon
| bag at the gate for free you would never pay the cost of
| checking it before security (unless it is too large to fit
| through the X-ray scanner at TSA).
| xboxnolifes wrote:
| Or if you're packing things that can't go in carry-ons.
| burlesona wrote:
| Note that the Southwest Airlines method (no assigned seats) was
| fastest in the Mythbusters test. I'm surprised that it got such
| a low "satisfaction" rating, as it's one of the main appealing
| factors for me to fly Southwest.
|
| Maybe it's just very polarizing, and SWA "gets away with it"
| because their market share roughly represents the percentage of
| travelers who like that method?
| [deleted]
| vmception wrote:
| Tangental note:
|
| I recently had a flight that had some backwards seats. My seat
| was one. First class.
|
| I had read for many years that this was the best for passengers
| but consumers wouldn't accept it. I had always thought that was a
| bad assumption probably based on some tiny focus group that
| nobody ever questioned, and look at that, I didn't have a problem
| with it.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > this was the best for passengers
|
| It's only best for when you crash.
|
| When you're not crashing (most of the time) most people find it
| quite a bit less pleasant as it means you're facing down when
| the aircraft climbs and descends. I'd avoid it pretty strongly
| when booking seats.
| vmception wrote:
| I didn't find it less pleasant, I was glad they ignored the
| focus groups. I don't get the impression anyone knows how
| they'd actually feel, given how less common that seating
| arrangement is. I really enjoyed the angle out of the window.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > given how less common that seating arrangement is
|
| It used to be much more common. They seem to have done away
| with it - I guess based on customer response not just
| randomly.
|
| You can't now because it's mostly gone, but you used to be
| able to see when booking a seat that all the forward-facing
| ones were booked before anyone booked a single rearward-
| facing one.
|
| For example - united Polaris. Replaced a 50/50 forwards-
| backwards configuration they'd had standard for decades
| with the overlapping style almost everyone seems to use
| now.
|
| I associate forward-backward with crusty old 747s and
| military transport and I think that's how much consumers
| see it as well.
| permo-w wrote:
| It absolutely bewilders me that people will queue for half an
| hour for no other reason than getting into their cramped,
| uncomfortable seat as quickly as possible
|
| People will queue just because other people are queuing, to no
| concrete end, and we wonder why democracy keeps throwing up such
| bad eggs
| Steko wrote:
| Standing up for a bit before an hour or 10 in a cramped airline
| seat isn't so bad imho.
| EvanAnderson wrote:
| Prior to COVID, at least, earlier boarding makes getting space
| in overhead bins more likely.
| jghn wrote:
| This is the reason. I go back and forth on if I prefer
| checking luggage or carry on. Which ever is my preference at
| the time has a huge impact on my boarding strategy.
| drewg123 wrote:
| If you board first, you're guaranteed overhead bin space, and
| you have 20-30 minutes to work before you have to put away your
| laptop for takeoff. If you're in first or business class,
| you're often offered a ground service (a complimentary drink),
| though I haven't seen this since COVID started a year ago.
| Mediterraneo10 wrote:
| Being at the front of the queue means you don't have to make
| your way through a long series of other passengers who are busy
| putting their luggage into the overhead compartment and not
| able to get out of your way. Having to squeeze through that can
| feel more cramped and claustrophobic than the seat you finally
| arrive at.
|
| Also, if you are at the back of the queue, there is
| occasionally a risk of there no longer being space in the
| overhead compartment for your stuff.
| [deleted]
| lumost wrote:
| I've always wondered why airlines charge for the privilege of
| being first on the plane rather than the last...
| icegreentea2 wrote:
| I always feel like you're actually paying for first dibs on
| carry-on / overhead baggage positioning. Well, unless you're
| actually in business/first class.
| ModernMech wrote:
| My strategy is to always be last on the plane. More often
| than not they will run out of overhead space and gate check
| my bag for free. Then I don't have to worry about hauling
| my luggage through the plane. I agree most people want
| first dibs on overhead baggage bins, but what's the big
| deal? I never understood this.
| RobertoG wrote:
| The deal is that when you arrive you have to wait for
| your bag and sometimes that's a lot of time.
| im3w1l wrote:
| Makes a lot of sense if you already checked bags anyway.
| potta_coffee wrote:
| I pack very light and I hate checking luggage. To me,
| it's nice to grab my little bag and immediately exit the
| airport rather than wait for my luggage. Spaces like
| airports with tons of people make me anxious and I
| optimize for getting out as quickly as possible. It's
| just nice not having a lot of possessions to worry about
| as well when traveling. Of course, this strategy doesn't
| work for every kind of trip.
| sneak wrote:
| Less time at the destination airport: you get to skip
| baggage claim, and the time at baggage claim waiting for
| the throwers to unload your luggage, drive it to baggage
| claim, and throw it on to the belt.
|
| Additionally, less risk of loss, too: obviously not all
| bags make it.
| jghn wrote:
| The thing I like the most about checking my bag is not
| having to lug my stuff through the airport while waiting.
| The primary downside for me is having to wait at the
| baggage claim on the other side. Gate checking can be the
| worst of both worlds if it's the sort where I still have
| to go through baggage claim.
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