[HN Gopher] The Framework Laptop
___________________________________________________________________
The Framework Laptop
Author : bitigchi
Score : 2502 points
Date : 2021-02-25 15:09 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (frame.work)
(TXT) w3m dump (frame.work)
| hamburglar wrote:
| The page about smart TVs makes me wonder if anyone has reverse-
| engineered the interface between a Samsung Frame TV's main
| controller box and the panel that goes on the wall (it's a
| remarkably thin cable that carries both the signal and power and
| can easily be fished through the wall). I absolutely love the
| panel itself with its wonderful display characteristics, but the
| software that drives everything from the main controller box is
| such trash that I'll probably never buy one again). I'd happily
| buy a 3rd party box that would drive that display panel and be
| free of the buggy, spying, shitty UX that Samsung provides.
| znpy wrote:
| this is a fantastic concept.
|
| also, this look like a realistic way to tackle e-waste (not the
| apple-esque BS)
|
| I understand that most of the e-waste is in the motherboard and
| the battery, but still, it's something. It's a huge step in the
| right directions.
| varispeed wrote:
| This would be perfect think to spin off your own machines.
| Imagine downloading a Kicad files for motherboard, adding your
| own stuff, sending off to JLCPCB or similar for assembly and then
| stuffing into the laptop shell.
| baybal2 wrote:
| KiCAD is not the calibre of an EDA you would use to make PC
| motherboard.
| varispeed wrote:
| That depends on the frequency I guess and how integrated the
| chips of your choosing are. If you don't go to idk 1GHz area,
| then things can be forgiving. Shame that the things like
| Altium are still out of hobbyist reach.
| nrp wrote:
| That's the goal! We will actually be publishing KiCad and
| OpenSCAD-based reference designs for the Expansion Cards for
| folks to be able to make their own. The mainboard is a bit more
| challenging, but we do want to enable an ecosystem around that
| as well.
| Animats wrote:
| _Shipping Summer 2021_
|
| Does it actually exist?
| SloopJon wrote:
| One of the repair challenges is access to old parts. The drain
| hose on our three year-old washer sprung a leak. When I called a
| repair man, he at first said that Samsung doesn't make that part
| anymore. Fortunately, he was mistaken, but if that's something
| that happens for a simple hose, imagine trying to replace the
| "high-end headphone amp" expansion card on this laptop five years
| from now.
|
| Even if I'm not too excited about the proprietary expansion card
| system, which will last as long as the founders' attention spans,
| if it gives access to standard memory and storage, that's an
| improvement over the current trend.
| marzell wrote:
| Since the modules are just USB-C adapted, those parts would
| probably be easy to mimic by a third party. Maybe they need to
| be signed or something, hence the marketplace they allude to.
| opsy2 wrote:
| Sounds like 3rd party extension is the goal, and according to
| other comments here without necessitating distribution on
| their marketplace either.
| psalminen wrote:
| From the article: "In addition to releasing new upgrades
| regularly, we're opening up the ecosystem to enable a community
| of partners to build and sell compatible modules through the
| Framework Marketplace."
|
| Maybe I am misinterpreting it but it sounds like its not a
| completely proprietary system?
| f6v wrote:
| A marketplace for an extremely narrow market? Who's going to
| invest their money to develop hardware for this platform?
| They better do everything themselves in the beginning.
| nrp wrote:
| Definitely! It's on us to make the ecosystem work by
| building a large enough install base for other hardware
| developers to see a reason to come in. We're going to
| continue to develop modules ourselves until that point, and
| past that point too!
| nrp wrote:
| It is definitely on us to prove that we'll provide long term
| support for the modules that we're developing, but we're also
| opening up documentation and reference designs for things like
| our Expansion Card system. If something ever happens to us,
| other companies and the community can continue to use and
| extend the ecosystem.
|
| We designed the Expansion Cards in a way that it's possible to
| 3D print the housings for them on a home 3D printer and get
| PCBs fabbed through the normal hobby channels. We hope that
| folks in the community come up with interesting card ideas and
| bring them out themselves in addition to what we develop.
| simonebrunozzi wrote:
| > We designed the Expansion Cards in a way that it's possible
| to 3D print the housings for them on a home 3D printer and
| get PCBs fabbed through the normal hobby channels.
|
| That's a bold and brave move. Well done.
| foobarian wrote:
| GPIO cards on a modern laptop? Sign me up!!!
| nrp wrote:
| Yes! Actually, one of the first cards we built internally
| is a little Arduino-compatible one with a SAMD21
| microcontroller and an external-facing 0.1" pin header for
| GPIO.
| robocat wrote:
| Will the expansion cards work if plugged into a USB-C
| port on another laptop or desktop? (Assuming I have
| driver e.g. Linux installed).
| kieranl wrote:
| Yep! Most do not require any custom drivers.
| TimTheTinker wrote:
| Woooow. This has a huge market potential among hobbyists.
| thiagocsf wrote:
| Will your specs include metric or just imperial
| measurements like you just used here?
| TheSpiceIsLife wrote:
| Fear not, modern inches are metric inches:
|
| _since the adoption of the international yard during the
| 1950s and 1960s, it has been based on the metric system
| and defined as exactly 25.4 mm._
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inch
| ben_ wrote:
| I love it!
| mtrovo wrote:
| Wow that's actually a really cool idea
| acomjean wrote:
| There used to be a pretty standard adapter card for laptops.
|
| I had an "ethernet modem card" from ibm in that form factor
| that worked well. And a scsi adapter for a zip drive I think.
| Its been a while...
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC_Card
| blhack wrote:
| It would be really cool if they had just made a laptop that
| accepted PCMCIA cards, and then made a bunch of new PCMCIA
| cards.
| wtallis wrote:
| The more recent choice would have been ExpressCard, but
| that standard was never updated beyond PCIe 2.0 x1 and USB
| 5Gbit/s. But the bigger problem with both ExpressCard and
| PCMCIA is that the cards are _long_ --those form factors
| date back to an era where expansion cards needed a lot more
| PCB space than they do now. ExpressCard 34 is 70/75mm long,
| compared to a typical client WiFi card that's M.2 22x30mm.
| It's quite impractical to have ExpressCard slots on both
| sides of the machine.
|
| I don't think it would have worked well to try to make a
| hot-swappable externally-facing card form factor derived
| from M.2. Likewise, cutting EDSFF E1.S down to a third of
| the length wouldn't leave any provision for USB or
| DisplayPort signals. USB-C is clearly the best available
| connector choice among current standards.
| wongarsu wrote:
| On the other hand in the laptop space I've never had problems
| with part availability. With brands like Dell or Lenovo there
| are plenty of new and used parts available on ebay or your
| trusted reseller, and official service handbooks are easy to
| download.
|
| The real value-add of the framework laptop is imho the upgrade
| path: you can swap in newer components without replacing nearly
| everything. Usually that's limited to just SSD and RAM, with
| everything else being on one huge mainboard assembly.
| dvdkon wrote:
| It actually is a problem for cheaper laptops whose exact SKUs
| often don't last more than half a year, which is my primary
| reason for buying "business" laptops.
| rchaud wrote:
| Is that true for the premium laptops? I worked at my school's
| help desk and yes, Dell parts and service manuals were
| plentiful, but usually for bulky Inspiron and Latitude budget
| laptops. The ones with ugly screens, wacky trackpads and
| replaceable batteries.
|
| It's been a while since I was in that world, but Dell makes
| some mighty nice looking machinery these days, but it doesn't
| look particularly repairable.
| wongarsu wrote:
| XPS are still very repairable. Not as nice as Latitude, but
| for example replaceing the battery or upgrading RAM only
| requires unscrewing the bottom (held on by about a dozen
| torx screws).
| rchaud wrote:
| good to know, thanks!
| 99_00 wrote:
| >if that's something that happens for a simple hose
|
| But it didn't happen...
| SilverRed wrote:
| But it has happened to many of us for other things. The
| camera on my pixel 2 broke but no one sells new parts for the
| pixel 2 and google doesn't support it. All you can get is
| poor quality second hand and stolen parts. For a less popular
| product, you get nothing.
| oblio wrote:
| To people hoping this will succeed (which I would very much like
| it to, personally), think about this:
|
| 1. Do you patch your socks, shirts, pants, jackets? Do you know
| regular, passive folks (so not the standard HN overachiever)
| doing this? I don't know anyone doing this.
|
| 2. Do you repair your home appliances? Same thing, I don't really
| know anyone doing this.
|
| Of course, this being the internet, someone will reply "yes, I do
| this", but my reply to that: "of course someone does it, but it's
| not a real market, there isn't any money in this".
|
| Poor people tend to repair their stuff, well off or rich people
| don't do it because it's a negative status symbol. And poor
| people can't afford expensive stuff, which this will probably be.
| Poor people can't afford high up-front costs, even though TCO
| might be awesome.
| salusinarduis wrote:
| I don't patch my clothing but I absolutely do repair appliances
| using guides I find on Youtube and blogs. I've also always been
| a custom parts pc guy, so it appeals to me, and I think there
| are tons of people like me based on Reddit's communities for
| this stuff.
| vb6sp6 wrote:
| Anecdotal but whatever: I know a lot of people who try and fix
| their own things. The most prolific fixer I know is quite well
| off
| e12e wrote:
| > Do you patch your socks, shirts, pants, jackets?
|
| Socks, generally no - by the time they've got holes, they're
| usually overall worn down anyway.
|
| I don't generally patch t-shirts or boxers (same reason), but I
| do sew worn seams, and patch pants, sweaters and jackets. I
| don't personally replaces zippers, but there's a local shop
| that does.
|
| For eg gortex outwear, it's possible to fix minor holes (like
| from sparks from a bonfire) with repair tape.
| tromp wrote:
| What led framework to choose Intel CPUs over AMD ones? Did it
| simplify the design of the system?
| fiddlerwoaroof wrote:
| Yeah, if I'm getting another laptop with an Intel CPU, I'll
| just get a Mac: a Ryzen 4XXX laptop with Mac-like build quality
| would make me reconsider.
| CoolGuySteve wrote:
| Yeah it's too bad, if this laptop had a 16 thread AMD CPU, it
| would be exactly what I'm looking for: a 3lbs mobile
| workstation that I can service/upgrade myself.
| chaosharmonic wrote:
| If I had to make an guess from how they're describing the I/O,
| USB4 would be the immediate limitation.
| jpetso wrote:
| This would also suggest that once AMD gets their USB4 act
| together (hopefully starting with Rembrandt?), Mobile Ryzen
| should become an option.
| cpursley wrote:
| No AMD is an absolute deal breaker for me. Might as well get a
| mac.
| freeopinion wrote:
| A modular laptop that doesn't offer an AMD module? So, so
| close.
|
| Hopefully the AMD board will ship late Summer 2021. Lack of AMD
| support is a showstopper for some.
| chaostheory wrote:
| This. I would bite if it was an AMD chip. Intel is just
| overpriced.
| dfgdghdf wrote:
| Reading down the proposed spec sheet, I'm starting to see how
| crappy the competition is!
|
| * Apple MacBook - Nothing configurable. Expensive and not build
| to be repaired.
|
| * Microsoft Surface - Much the same, but with Windows
|
| * Lenovo Thinkpad - A little more configurable than a MacBook,
| and much better value, but still difficult to repair. Missing
| premium features like an Aluminium case.
|
| * Dell XPS 13 - Much like the Lenovo, but the Linux option is
| nice.
|
| If they pull this off, developers are going to love it. I really
| wish them the best.
|
| My advice? Make sure it works _flawlessly_ with the top 3 Linux
| distributions.
| w0mbat wrote:
| Intel processors are done in the laptop market. I'll stick with
| fast, silent, ARM based machines like the M1 MacBooks.
| f1refly wrote:
| My first thought on it was that I love it and I want one, my
| second thought was that its really sad they don't have a
| thinkpad-like rubberized alloy case but only a subpar mac-like
| shell available. Tastes differ, I guess.
| protomyth wrote:
| _My advice? Make sure it works _flawlessly_ with the top 3
| Linux distributions._
|
| May sure it works flawlessly with one of the BSD distributions
| and you know the Linux experience will be flawless.
| arianvanp wrote:
| > * Lenovo Thinkpad - A little more configurable than a
| MacBook, and much better value, but still difficult to repair.
| Missing premium features like an Aluminium case.
|
| difficult to repair? They're super easy to repair! My T430 even
| came with a bay to access the RAM and hard drive without
| opening the case up.
|
| Also replacing things like keyboard usually is only 2 screws
| even on the newer models.
|
| All screws are standard philips too.
|
| Lenovo also published comprehensive repair guides for all their
| thinkpad laptops.
| dfgdghdf wrote:
| I think that model is discontinued. You need to compare with
| the X1 Carbon models.
| nickflood wrote:
| Dell XPS 13/15/17 are super repairable, too. Unlike the
| macbooks, the battery is replaceable. On 15"/17" models the
| RAM is socketed. The SSD drives are all standard socketed.
| And nothing is glued, everything is screwed in with a good
| replacement parts market available after about a year of
| the laptop coming out. I've just gotten the XPS 9310 and
| 9700 and they are very repairable.
|
| Only things missing are the RAM on a 13" version and wifi
| cards being soldered in (but you can theoretically use a
| different wi-fi card on a 17" as it has a spare M.2 slot).
|
| Before that I've performed upgrades from XPS 15 9550 to
| 9560 and 9570 by swapping the motherboard and couple other
| parts. So it's not like Apple _at all_. It's more like the
| opposite of Apple
| codemac wrote:
| > Missing premium features like an Aluminium case.
|
| Magnesium is a different type of premium for some.
| SilverRed wrote:
| Its extremely light. I initially thought it was plastic until
| I tapped and scraped my fingernail along the vents.
| notretarded wrote:
| Just don't get it wet!
| efficax wrote:
| Is the thinkpad better value than the MacBook?
|
| The i7 16GB ram / 512GB ssd Thinkpad X1 Carbon is $1900 and you
| don't even get a nice display. The M1 16GB/512GB ssd Macbook
| Pro is only $1700 and you get a best-in-class display along
| with that.
|
| The XPS 13 and Surface are similarly priced. Macbooks are very
| price competitive and have been for a long time.
| fsflover wrote:
| > I'm starting to see how crappy the competition is!
|
| What about this laptop? https://puri.sm/products/librem-14
| [deleted]
| nightowl_games wrote:
| Honestly this is exactly what I want (quality, repairable,
| upgradable), but I'm not all in yet. I feel like this space is
| extremely hard to break into, and I'm worried about their ability
| to pull it off. Is there massive capital in this corp? Will the
| price be really high? I'd pay a premium for this kind of thing,
| but if they start crowd funding it's gonna seem like a red flag.
| nrp wrote:
| We have the funding we need to bring the product to market (an
| odd downstream benefit of Oculus getting bought by Facebook),
| but we will be taking pre-orders with a deposit prior to
| shipping to make sure our SKU mix and production rates are
| matched to actual demand.
|
| We won't be asking consumers to pay a premium for longevity,
| but it's nice to hear that you'd be willing to!
| [deleted]
| conqrr wrote:
| Will it be cheaper than a mac? If yes, you have my money as I
| can see it being used for the next 20 years (with upgrades).
| deadmutex wrote:
| How often will you be pushing out new releases? every 18
| months? 24? etc.
|
| Personally, I am waiting until av1 hardware decoders are more
| common, and BT 5 LE Audio (so they can stream to wireless
| headsets easily) is out as well.
| samatman wrote:
| Drive by suggestion here.
|
| I think you should offer a first-class Linux experience with
| this laptop. It's a genuinely underserved market, with a lot
| of overlap for people who care about the repairability and
| upgradability which are core to your offering. A market with
| premium mind share, as well.
|
| When I say first class, I mean something specific: you should
| spend some of your engineering budget making a really good
| driver Linux driver for your touchpad, and open source it.
| That would be huge. I'm sure your hardware is up to snuff,
| but your control over how good that feels in Windows is very
| limited.
|
| There are a bunch of developers who have stuck with the Mac
| for essentially one reason, the touchpad.
|
| Windows is dominant in laptops, but with distinct verticals,
| and I struggle to figure out which one this would fit into.
| Cheap semi-disposable laptop for a broke college student?
| Clearly this will cost more than that. Gaming? No way you'll
| have enough power and battery with that form factor. Excel
| ninjas who get it from work? Why would they care about
| expansion and repairability?
|
| But "I'd rather be using Linux if the experience just sucked
| a little bit less" is underserved. Obviously you can't offer
| _just_ Linux, and maybe licensing shenanigans with Microsoft
| mean you can 't even consider this (although I really hope
| that's not a factor anymore).
|
| Anyway. Good luck, it's a cool idea.
| bscphil wrote:
| > you should spend some of your engineering budget making a
| really good driver Linux driver for your touchpad, and open
| source it
|
| It's funny how completely random this suggestion feels (I
| figured you were going to suggest a customized distro based
| on Ubuntu or something), and yet I _completely_ agree. Most
| everything uses libinput these days, and a whole lot of the
| "feel" is baked into the driver at compile time. Getting it
| right yourself (or even just making it more configurable
| for users) would be an enormous step forward.
| Finn1sher wrote:
| Totally agree! I think there's a real market for laptops
| with Linux preinstalled - if they offered 2 or 3 distros,
| (Pop, Manjaro, Fedora for example) all with excellent
| touchpad drivers, I would snap it up.
| someperson wrote:
| Relevant to this conversation is Bill Harding's project to
| fund a better touchpad driver [1] [2]. It's well worth
| reading his blog posts and seeing his related GitHub
| project.
|
| Definitely worth understanding his understand motivations,
| then considering collaborating and/or funding him.
|
| [1] https://bill.harding.blog/2018/04/12/linux-touchpad-
| like-a-m...
|
| [2] https://bill.harding.blog/2020/04/26/linux-touchpad-
| like-a-m...
| fsflover wrote:
| > There are a bunch of developers who have stuck with the
| Mac for essentially one reason, the touchpad.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24700537
|
| > Obviously you can't offer _just_ Linux
|
| Yes, you can: https://puri.sm/products/librem-14
|
| https://system76.com/laptops
| spijdar wrote:
| Purism is a good example, but System76 is not -- they're
| not actually designing or building hardware specifically
| for Linux, but tailoring existing hardware for Linux.
|
| The distinction is they're not trying to develop a new
| computer that only runs or officially supports Linux.
| Instead they're leveraging the sales volumes of these
| OEM/ODMs which do offer Windows in order to keep prices
| in line with similarly specced laptops.
|
| Compare this to Purism, whose offerings are much more
| expensive compared to similarly specced laptops, and
| because of this unlikely to gain mass market appeal. An
| initiative like Framework needs some amount of mass
| market appeal to make the repairability aspect really
| make sense, else it'll just be expensive and resource
| intensive to manufacture small quantities of these
| systems.
| ihsw wrote:
| Do you have plans for a Ryzen (Zen 3) CPU?
| [deleted]
| pbronez wrote:
| I would love to see an e-ink display upgrade for this!
| nrp wrote:
| We'd love to see that too! The Dasung 13.3" is actually sized
| just about right to be able to mod into our lid assembly. It's
| probably not a thing that we'll do ourselves, but it would be
| great to see someone try it.
| mark242 wrote:
| Very disconcerting to launch a laptop without any mention of
| battery life.
| nrp wrote:
| Apologies for that. We packed in a 55Wh battery and are using
| popular silicon and a display that is used in several other
| popular notebooks, so you can use those as a reference point.
| We didn't want to state a figure in hours until we wrap up our
| firmware work and can release reproducible benchmarks for it
| (since battery life marketing statements tend to be pretty
| questionable).
| rkagerer wrote:
| With an aluminum rather than magnesium or other body, how bad do
| you anticipate the flex will be?
| hinkley wrote:
| Reinforcing fins can do quite a bit. Macbooks don't have a lot
| of flex.
|
| However, Apple has some patents that cover building up solid
| aluminum with stir welding instead of CNCing out of a solid
| block.
|
| You might have to challenge that patent (prior art, Boeing
| patents that may be older) to make it cheap, but if it's
| enthusiast targeted, an extra 50 bucks or whatever might be
| just fine for people.
| baybal2 wrote:
| You cannot weld aluminium, or at least not on the cheap.
|
| The only real "weldable aluminium" known today are scandium-
| aluminium alloys which are both hard to get, and expensive.
| hinkley wrote:
| Cannondale bicycles would like to have a word with you.
| They started out making bikes out of 'aircraft aluminum'
| which if memory serves was
| [6061](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6061_aluminium_alloy),
| which is magnesium silicon, not scandium. Do you mean you
| can't weld aluminum in an oxygen environment? I think
| you're right about that at least. I think they used argon,
| and then had a patented(?) annealing process to keep it
| from falling apart under the customers. Not sure what they
| do now.
|
| You have probably flown in an airplane with stir-welded
| aluminum. Stir welding is a bit like... making velcro and
| sticking it together at exactly the same time.
|
| Nobody is building things out of 'aluminum' so it feels
| like nitpicking to argue about metalurgy for a company that
| is just going to buy stock in block or plate form. With a
| bunch of electronics nerds.
|
| I only brought the metal in to talk about stiffening and
| because some patents may make it difficult for them to
| build a work-alike that lives up to their hype.
| baybal2 wrote:
| There are somewhat weldable alumium alloys, but their
| joints are still nowhere near as strong as steel ones in
| relative comparison.
|
| And you still have very painstaking process of finding
| the optimal welding recipe for the part, post-treatment,
| and defectoscopy.
| ConfusedDog wrote:
| Looks very interesting. Hopefully the pricing isn't ridiculous,
| and come with empty SSD/RAM so users don't waste money on a basic
| build. I have concerns about the port modules, as they are
| "mechanical moving parts" that I don't have good experience with,
| but definitely a better alternative than dongles in a lot of use
| cases. Signed up subscribed. Looking forward to see it in action.
| teddyh wrote:
| Yeah, let's pretend that firmware isn't a thing and RYF
| certification isn't important. /s
|
| I only care about repairability when it affects a product's
| _longevity_. And if the drivers are proprietary and will be
| unsupported after the warranty runs out, who cares if I can
| repair the hardware? It's useless anyway if I can't get security
| updates to the thing.
| villgax wrote:
| This is excellent, would have loved swappable 18650 based battery
| packs too!
| josefresco wrote:
| I can't imagine the stress of launching a "sustainable" tech
| product like this, knowing every aspect of the product and
| business will be ultra-scrutinized.
| nrp wrote:
| I had a 7 year long trial run for this by making consumer VR a
| thing ;)
| josefresco wrote:
| I guess confidence is not your main issue ;-)
| hinkley wrote:
| That recessed port trick is something I've thought about every
| time I snag my Logitech universal receiver on my laptop bag. Only
| difference is that USB-C puts that idea on steroids.
| ThinkBeat wrote:
| I really want to buy hardware that allows easy repair. That goes
| for laptops and cellphone in particular.
|
| Laptops used to allow easy replacement of battery, memory and
| hardrives at the very least.
|
| All that sacrificed in the name of making the devices "thinner"
| and the design more attractive.
|
| What bits me most is that a lot of younger friends I have, have
| no such expectations.
|
| Talk to them about a cellphone the answer is usually "well if you
| have had it for 2 years it is probably time to buy a new one
| anyway"
|
| Apples wireless earplugs are use and throw away. With a life
| expectancy of a little over 2 years from what I have read. No way
| to swap the batteries. I do not know if that figure is accurate.
|
| I live in Norway now and the government is doing all sorts of
| things "for the environment" but have no interest in laws to
| force hardware makers to sell equipment that can be easily
| repaired.
|
| Not that it would matter much for Norway, hardware makers would
| just pull out and the citizens would be very angry at the
| government.
|
| If the EU and the US could join forces on it there would be
| repaid change.
|
| I wonder if a latest generation Apple Air would be "easily"
| updated by Apple to allow end user replacement.
|
| I doubt it.
|
| Let say such a law could be passed, and it mattered, how much
| thicker and "less" attractive would things get. I wonder what
| engineering could come up with.
|
| Buying less, keeping things longer, and making things repairable
| should be at the very top of the green agenda. That would all
| results in less sales so no major government seemsm to go that
| way.
| poutrathor wrote:
| high tech and environment considerations are conflicting way
| harder than most nerds care to acknowledge and it's a real
| issue.
| Silhouette wrote:
| I'm not sure that's quite true. High tech _marketing_ and
| _profits_ may be conflicting with environment considerations,
| but those are not technical issues.
|
| I would argue that after many years of
| customisable/repairable desktop PCs and servers, it is clear
| that a more modular and standardised design is a good thing
| in most ways. It tends to be gamers who are the big upgrade-
| in-place fans and will look at things like new CPUs or
| graphics cards or even motherboards, but the modularity and
| standardisation are also good for simple things like adding
| more storage or RAM, or replacing a failed PSU or drive in an
| otherwise working system.
|
| Even if you never use the flexibility yourself, an old PC can
| potentially have the storage devices wiped or replaced for
| security and then be passed on to another user. That might be
| a recycled home PC going to a less developed country where
| someone otherwise wouldn't be able to afford one. It might be
| a business clearing out some old pro-level equipment that
| finds its way to a homelab enthusiast. Either way, it's
| saving someone money and making more use of the equipment for
| longer.
|
| Modern laptops and phones have fought against this modularity
| and flexibility, and that's not a good thing. There have been
| all kinds of arguments made about achieving smaller and
| lighter devices that people carry with them, or needing
| carefully engineered airflows to keep high performance
| components cool in limited space, or achieving better fluid
| resistance in case of accidents. Sometimes those arguments do
| have _some_ merit. But let 's not kid ourselves that all the
| sealed cases and ever-changing connectors (or lack of
| connectors) and active steps to prevent systems working with
| "unofficial" replacement parts aren't heavily in the
| interests of the manufacturers and doing real harm to both
| customers and the environment.
| google234123 wrote:
| I'm pretty sure Apple goes far more for the green agenda than
| the old PC makers ever did - even taking into account the tiny
| savings you get from the few people that upgraded or repaired
| their laptops in the past.
| neop1x wrote:
| Nah, not anymore. SSD and RAM are soldered on the motherboard
| in newer Macbooks [1]. And you can't even swap parts in
| iPhone 12 unless you reprogram their EEPROMs [2].
|
| [1] https://www.ifixit.com/laptop-repairability [2]
| https://youtu.be/FY7DtKMBxBw
| magikaram wrote:
| Apple, when you had repairs for a device, rather than
| repairing it, have actually ended up just throwing away the
| old device in favor of swapping for a new one. The past 6
| years, they've made devices with no serviceable parts. Your
| RAM, Storage, Keyboard, among other parts - are all soldered
| to the board, riveted to the chassis, or glued shut. There is
| no way to service those machines. Once your Flash chips die,
| you need a whole new motherboard.
|
| Sure, Apple recycles some of the parts of the device, but
| environmentally, it's much better to support and repair a
| device than it is to simply crush it and recycle it.
| fsflover wrote:
| > I really want to buy hardware that allows easy repair. That
| goes for laptops and cellphone in particular.
|
| IFixIt: Smartphone Doesn't Have to Be Glued Shut
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCccpgposh4
| crooked-v wrote:
| > All that sacrificed in the name of making the devices
| "thinner" and the design more attractive.
|
| I think the other major factor you're overlooking here is
| battery life. High-end laptops these days are mostly battery
| (right up to the 100 Wh carry-on limit set by the FAA), with
| everything else designed to fit into the space left over.
| Vinnl wrote:
| > The Framework Laptop is made of 50% post consumer recycled
| (PCR) aluminum and an average of 30% PCR plastic.
|
| Like others have mentioned, I'm immediately thinking of
| Fairphone. Definitely going to keep an eye on this and hope it's
| still on my mind when I'm next in the market. Until then, I'm
| hoping they'll looking into responsible sourcing of conflict
| minerals [1] [2], possibly in partnership with Fairphone.
|
| _Edit:_ Hmm, can 't find an RSS feed. Anyone know if there's one
| I can follow somewhere?
|
| [1] https://www.fairphone.com/en/impact/fair-materials-sourcing/
|
| [2] https://www.fairphone.com/en/2017/02/01/fairer-materials-
| a-l...
| gwbas1c wrote:
| I'm a Mac user, mostly because I like the simplicity of the
| hardware.
|
| If/when I return to Windows, a Framework laptop is definitely
| appealing. I'd rather change the ports than deal with a handful
| of dongles and adaptors.
|
| One thing to consider:
|
| I really want to try a laptop that comes with a good, well-
| supported Linux installation. (I haven't tried desktop Linux
| since the early 2000s.) I'm less concerned about "distro of my
| choice," because I really just want something that works well out
| of the box and is easy to learn.
| deadmutex wrote:
| > I'm a Mac user, mostly because I like the simplicity of the
| hardware.
|
| Do you mean software? Or are you referring to the iMac? because
| on the laptop side, the MacBooks seem very similar in terms of
| simplicity. Build quality is a different story, etc.
| gwbas1c wrote:
| > the MacBooks seem very similar in terms of simplicity
|
| To the Framework? Oh heck yes!
|
| I switched to Mac when the rumors were that Windows Vista was
| going to be a flop. Today, I like MacOS better than Windows
| 10, but Windows 10 is very nice.
| smoldesu wrote:
| Side note, I think you'd be pleasantly surprised with how far
| Linux has come. I recently returned to it for the first time in
| a decade, and it's pretty remarkable how mature the operating
| system is. Almost all of my "essential" apps have native
| versions (eg. Matrix, Spotify, Discord, Steam) and the ones
| that don't can be pretty easily emulated through Wine. It only
| took 2 weeks of playing around with KDE on my Macbook before I
| put it on my desktop as well. 2 months later, I'm still loving
| the decision.
| gwbas1c wrote:
| Which distro?
| xur17 wrote:
| I've been using Ubuntu for years now, and honestly it's
| pretty set and forget at this point. Main caveat is that
| you should do a little bit of research beforehand to ensure
| it will work well. It still has some quirks at time, but
| honestly my Macbook I used at my last job had just as many
| quirks.
| jerrygoyal wrote:
| Interesting. What are some things you wish could still be
| better in Ubuntu?
| neop1x wrote:
| I have been happily using KDE on Arch Linux for many years
| as well.
|
| Just two times I saw what seemed to be an xorg glitch which
| required powering off and on the display output via xrandr
| over SSH.
|
| And MTP (android file transfer) implementation under KDE is
| not ideal, it sometimes freezes or behaves weirdly. ADB CLI
| helps in such cases, though.
|
| Other than that it's a pretty solid and usable system.
|
| If you decide to use Linux, make sure your HW is well
| supported. For example AMD seems to be better choice over
| nVidia or even Intel.
| alex_duf wrote:
| it seems like nrp is answering questions around here, so here's
| another one: will you be shipping to the UK and / or continental
| Europe?
|
| Edit: found the answer: "We're shipping in the US and Canada this
| summer and opening up additional countries in Europe and Asia
| before the end of the year"
| elric wrote:
| I hope they'll be partnering with an EU distributor so it's
| easier to reclaim VAT and to avoid having to pay import taxes.
| jascii wrote:
| They claim "100% Yours", does that mean they managed to do away
| with the Intel Management Engine? I somehow doubt it...
|
| For the rest I see a lot of proprietary modules. I somehow can't
| help but be a bit sceptical. It smells like proprietary lock-in
| sold as "freedom". I think I'll keep waiting till Pine64 comes
| out with a RiscV based PineBook Pro.
| liminalsunset wrote:
| Looks wonderful! Just a quick question - is Thunderbolt or USB4
| support provided? I havent seen a mention of it on the site yet
|
| Thanks!
| cdnsteve wrote:
| Exciting news on my bday, I signed up to be notified when this
| launches. I view this as progress in the right to repair vs
| youknowwho and I'd like to give this product a real shot. Bring
| on change and give the consumer options to customize, nice work.
| Dig1t wrote:
| Remember that one time when someone tried to do this with mobile
| phones and then Google bought it and killed it?
|
| https://www.onearmy.earth//project/phonebloks
|
| I really hope this is actually successful.
|
| I'd love a version with a larger screen as well.
| ploxiln wrote:
| I don't see any mention of the firmware and drivers efforts for
| this. Firmware and drivers always end up more difficult to deal
| with than expected.
|
| The Fairphone company was surprised by difficulties upgrading and
| patching android without support from their BSP vendor, causing
| many months delays of updates _and_ years shorter support life
| than they were planning for their earlier models.
|
| I purchased the Purism Librem 13 laptop from their kickstarter,
| and they had great plans for firmware and drivers, but also great
| difficulty following through. The trackpad chosen for the first
| models took much longer than expected to get upstream linux
| support, and it was never great (it turned out to be impossible
| to reliably detect their variant automatically). They finally
| hired someone with sufficient skill to do the coreboot port
| _months_ after initial units were delivered, and delivered
| polished coreboot firmware for their initial laptops _years_
| after they started the kickstarter.
|
| So, why should we have confidence in the firmware and drivers
| that Framework will deliver :)
| nrp wrote:
| Our Embedded Controller firmware is based on chromium ec, and
| we're using a mature off the shelf BIOS solution shipping in
| other notebooks today. We chose our key components with driver
| stability across both Windows and Linux in mind. We know this
| is something we have to get right to deliver a credible
| competitor to all the great notebooks already in the market, so
| it is something we focused on from the start.
| rkangel wrote:
| Have you considered providing an out of the box Linux
| experience?
|
| I have no intention of using the Ubuntu provided with a
| Lenovo laptop if I buy one, but the fact that that there is a
| fully working Linux distro for that machine means that all of
| the requisite bits and pieces are somewhere in the Open
| Source community (and because I use Fedora, I'm almost
| certainly using a new enough version of Kernel, Gnome etc.
| that they're already there).
| john4532452 wrote:
| Will the user be able to replace custom BIOS, that is a
| killer feature no notebook or laptop offers ?
| cpill wrote:
| if you have a fingerprint reader that works in Linux I'm in!
| odysseus wrote:
| My Thinkpad fingerprint reader works in Linux. Well, it
| works perhaps 80-85% of the time. See
| https://askubuntu.com/questions/1231185/fingerprint-login-
| in...
| kieranl wrote:
| Working on it!
| Tijdreiziger wrote:
| > Our Embedded Controller firmware is based on chromium ec
|
| Sorry, I'm having trouble parsing this statement. Your
| 'embedded controller' (whatever that may be) firmware is
| based on a web browser?
| QuinnWilton wrote:
| Chromium EC. It's the part of Chromebooks that handles
| things like keypresses: https://chromium.googlesource.com/c
| hromiumos/platform/ec/+/m...
| eightails wrote:
| I think they are referring to part of the Chromium OS
| project, which seems to be open source firmware for basic
| device functions including "power sequencing, keyboard
| control, thermal control, battery charging, and verified
| boot" [0]
|
| [0] https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/platform/e
| c/+/m...
| Tijdreiziger wrote:
| Ah, I didn't know Chrome OS had an OSS counterpart.
| Thanks!
| abrowne wrote:
| Please support the Linux Vendor Firmware Service
| https://fwupd.org/ :-)
| southerntofu wrote:
| Hi, i'm interested about details. Are they on a wiki
| somewhere?
|
| > driver stability across both Windows and Linux
|
| Is "Linux" in this case mainline linux or does entail to use
| nvidia/ati proprietary drivers? If mainline linux, is it a
| free driver, or a binary blob? (see linux-libre)
|
| > a mature off the shelf BIOS solution
|
| Is coreboot/libreboot on your roadmap?
|
| I'm not trying to nitpick. Congratulations on the hardware
| design that looks amazing (replaceable port extensions,
| clever!). I strongly believe software is also an important
| part of reliability/durability, that's why my questions :)
| bmd3991 wrote:
| Semi off-topic, but how is working in the
| firmware/drivers/systems space? Everyone always talks about how
| hard it is, so that makes me think that companies would be
| paying a premium for good systems devs. On the other hand there
| aren't as many companies who have that need. I enjoyed the low
| level work I did in college and have been thinking about
| getting back into it, but there are no jobs involving it near
| me (moving to Seattle in a bit so this should change)
| 2020aj wrote:
| Librem was geared towards openness/security, this just has a
| focus on repairability. Can Framework not just use off the
| shelf parts that already have the proper firmware/drivers
| available for windows/linux and then encounter none of the same
| issues? Or is the issue the interfaces b/w the modules and
| mainboard?
| ploxiln wrote:
| For desktop computers this is a lot easier, for laptops it's
| still not that easy. The motherboards are not just COTS "Asus
| z490 prime" or whatever, and you can't just include a nice
| standard USB mouse which requires no drivers. If you don't
| have a good plan for how you will ensure you have good
| motherboard firmware and touchpad drivers, then they won't
| turn out good.
|
| Luckily it seems like Framework do have this well under
| control (somewhat quietly :)
| Brakenshire wrote:
| I think the particular problem for devices based on ARM SoCs
| is they're not on the mainline kernel, support for hardware
| and for upgrading software relies on a whole pile of hacks on
| top of an ancient kernel version, and that means that
| upgrading to a new Android version requires applying a pile
| of new hacks on top again, and can be very laborious to get a
| reasonable, stable result. So Fairphone used a chipset whose
| manufacturer quickly dropped support for upgrading beyond a
| certain Android version, and that made it difficult for
| Fairphone to support the upgrade themselves.
|
| Whereas if x86 systems have support on the mainline kernel,
| future kernel upgrades will be supported.
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| Is there a reason why there needs to be so much tweaks to
| get the kernel running on a modern SoC?
|
| Any reason there couldn't be a "canonical" ARM64 standard
| for SoC?
| spijdar wrote:
| There is a "canonical" ARM64 standard, so to speak --
| ARM's ServerReady architecture, which implements
| UEFI+ACPI, which coupled with the right hardware, could
| create the same kind of ecosystem Intel/PCs have enjoyed
| for so long.
|
| The problem is a lot of ARM SoCs have tightly integrated,
| custom hardware which requires modified or new drivers,
| and the tweaks needed to use them are often either very
| dirty and won't be accepted into mainline Linux without
| basically redoing them, or are occasionally just hooks
| for proprietary userland blobs to interface with, and are
| effectively obfuscated, satisfying the "letter of the
| law" for GPL but no more.
|
| There are some devices like this on x86 too, FWIW --
| Google's Pixelbook, as an example, has a few devices that
| effectively need a custom fork of Linux to get the audio
| device to function correctly, because it's driven over
| i2c (IIRC) and needs special blobs uploaded and an out-
| of-tree driver to function.
|
| ARM SoCs could be more "PC like" but it'd be more
| expensive, which as far as I can tell is a big reason it
| hasn't happened. No real incentive as people don't seem
| to care if their OS goes out of date in 4 years.
| TimTheTinker wrote:
| This could change with support for Apple's M1 chip being
| added to the Linux mainline hopefully later this year.
| xtat wrote:
| It's cool but the MNT reform goes out of its way to be way more
| open.
|
| https://twitter.com/mntmn/status/1365060706723393536
| adenozine wrote:
| No information about pricing?
| sturza wrote:
| does not matter
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| In what way?
| sturza wrote:
| it will be expensive because it liiks like the first teuly
| modular laptop. it will get cheaper if it has a big enough
| market. so in a long enough time frame it does not matter
| imwillofficial wrote:
| It does when payday rolls around ;)
| SilverRed wrote:
| Its not the first. We have seen modular designs over and
| over again. Here is a very similar idea from 2016
| https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop
|
| We have also seen multiple failed attempts at modular
| phones.
|
| Ultimately, the problem with repair is not about making
| it easy enough for grandma to swap out a part. Its about
| making sure repair stores have the ability to source
| replacement parts.
|
| Its pretty easy to do almost any repair if you have the
| tools and parts but there is no way you are finding a new
| IC that fried on your 5 year old laptop.
| tluyben2 wrote:
| I couldn't see it from the introduction, but is it
| differently modular than old Lenovo's? Like the X220
| which I use as daily driver? I guess the flexible ports
| layout is different but the X220 has enough anyway.
| whoisburbansky wrote:
| Founder in sister thread explicitly says they aren't
| planning on charging a premium for longevity. Besides,
| even at Apple level prices, a perpetually upgradable
| system essentially pays for itself eventually.
| nrp wrote:
| Framework founder here. We'll be announcing pricing shortly
| before we open pre-orders this spring. We won't be asking
| consumers to pay a premium for longevity, and will be setting
| pricing to be comparable to other popular notebooks using the
| same silicon.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| What about shipping and deliveries to regions other than US,
| like EU for example?
|
| How will your volumes look during this silicon shortage?
| nrp wrote:
| We're shipping in the US and Canada this summer and opening
| up additional countries in Europe and Asia before the end
| of the year. In the future, we will launch modules and
| products worldwide closer to the same date, but we're
| pacing ourselves on inventory on the first launch.
|
| We placed our forecasts and risk buys on most chips early
| in anticipation of the silicon crunch that is coming this
| year. So far, we don't see anything that puts us at risk,
| short of there being massive unexpected upside on consumer
| demand (a good problem to have!).
| lovelyviking wrote:
| Finally! This is amazing what you do! I like the
| philosophy and share values! This is the machine I wish
| to have and this is the machine I was dreaming to help
| making. Is there any way one can help/contribute/join? I
| have knowledge in sw-dev/ hw / design and speak 4
| languages. May be there is a way to help distribute them
| at least?
| nrp wrote:
| Thanks! We're continuing to grow the team, and have a
| bunch of roles open currently:
| https://jobs.lever.co/framework
| f6v wrote:
| So in other words it's going to be 2k for i7, 16 Gb RAM, and
| 512 Gb SSD?
| GordonS wrote:
| This looks absolutely fantastic!
|
| Any plans for a larger version, 14/15", or maybe even 16"?
| zepearl wrote:
| I'll add that I'm looking since forever for a 16+/17'' *thin"
| laptop (currently using a Lenovo P71, which is a brick) - for
| some reason nowadays there are hundreds of 13/14/15'' laptops
| which are thin, but 17'' are always huge - the only thin one
| that exists, as far as I know, is the LG Gram 17, which is not
| available with my country's keyboard layout (Swiss German).
|
| Very important things for me would be the keyboard (normal
| layout, include insert&delete&pgup/down&home&end-keys arrowkeys
| should have a bump or similar to be located easily without
| watching, ideally as well a number pad - the one of Lenovo is
| excellent) and the resolution (FullHD not good enough on a 17''
| - must be something higher, max 4k, ideally IPS). About the
| rest: normal CPU (at least 4 threads), normal RAM (8GB probably
| not enough, better 16GB), normal storage (1 normal SSD/NVME),
| maybe an ethernet connection, no separate/discrete GPU, no
| cd/dvd, 2 USB connectors, no superfast/superhot CPU in any case
| something which does not make the fan spin up often, does not
| have to be superlight.
|
| Cheers & good luck :)
| GordonS wrote:
| Yeah, reason I asked is that I find 13" just a _wee_ bit too
| small for my liking, so it would be nice to have the option
| of something just a little bigger.
|
| Not 17" tho, even if it was light (it wouldn't be), it would
| be massive.
|
| Years back I got lumbered with a 17" CAD laptop from work, an
| HP I think. It weighed 5-6kg, which was _ridiculous_ - I
| ended up with grazing all over my shoulder from my backpack!
| Luckily I managed to swap it after a short time.
| zepearl wrote:
| Sorry, I did misuse a bit your post to just _add_ as well
| my own personal wish (as you anyway mentioned 16 ''...),
| but I'm sorry if it gave you the impression of me wanting
| to interfere with your own wishes, I absolutely didn't mean
| to :P
|
| I agree about 13'' - a little bit too small. I currently
| own as well a 14'' Lenovo X1 Carbon (4th gen) and I
| personally think that that's perfect to carry around and to
| work with (I do use it as well at home from time to time)
| (newer models have an even thinner bezel, which makes them
| even better).
|
| Yes, I absolutely agree that 17'' are quite a challenge to
| carry around (I remember that many years ago when I was
| walking around in Manchester with a thick Asus 17'' in my
| backpack, after a few KMs I started realizing that that was
| a mistake, hehe) - my usecase would be to use it mostly
| just at home or at least when not changing too often the
| workplace.
| staunch wrote:
| This is a great example of a problem where Apple has placed their
| own financial interests above their users.
|
| They could make their computers and phones highly upgradeable and
| repairable, they're brilliant at these kinds of engineering
| challenges, but they _choose_ not to because they would
| (presumably) not make as much money as they currently do.
|
| But that leaves an opportunity for others to come along, like
| this company, and serve the market better than Apple.
|
| I hope this company succeeds at least enough to force Apple's
| hand, in the way Tesla forced automakers to move to EVs.
| cat199 wrote:
| looks awesome!
|
| but will take the opportunity to be a know it all critic from the
| peanut gallery to be annoyed by the schmarmy 'made with ' that i
| see on everything these days.. is anyone else as annoyed by this
| as I am? hmm...
|
| wouldn't stop a potential purchase though. kudos!
| dudeinjapan wrote:
| I love the concept. Finally someone gets what matters in a
| laptop. Other companies have made similar products (I have an
| ultralight Samsung that I love) but they always seem to lose
| interest and the next year's model comes out bloated and heavier.
| trilinearnz wrote:
| Cool idea. Reminds me a lot of the earlier Thinkpads which had
| legendary swappability of components between models. For example,
| it was trivial for me to swap the superior keyboard on my T60 for
| the one on my T500.
|
| Not seeing anything about the ability to swap out the display,
| however... You seem to lose a bit of flexibility when embracing
| the unibody chassis.
| nrp wrote:
| The display is held in with fasteners behind the magnetic
| attach bezel.
| messo wrote:
| I was dreaming about such a laptop only a few days ago
| (admittedly with an IBM/Lenovo-like keyboard). Do you offer ANSI
| keyboards for European countries? It would be great if a nordic
| keyboard layout was an option and easily swapable.
| nrp wrote:
| We have both ANSI and ISO layouts, and we've designed the
| keyboard to be end-user replaceable. We'll be adding more
| keyboard languages as we expand into more countries. The clear
| keyboard shown in our product photos is actually real too!
| We'll be offering clear and blank for the people who want that.
| andrewshadura wrote:
| Is the ISO layout an actual ISO, i.e. with an extra key
| between the left Shift and Z?
|
| By the way, I'd love to have a Trackpoint or an equivalent.
| Or a trackball.
| elric wrote:
| Goodness I hope that key is there, I've had to jump through
| all sorts of hoops to type comfortably on keyboards that
| are missing this key.
| kieranl wrote:
| Yep the ISO layout has the \| key next to Z!
| messo wrote:
| Great! The clear keyboard also sounds interesting as I could
| hack together my own Norwegian Colemak layout.
|
| * I meant ISO, not ANSI in my parent comment :)
| coldtea wrote:
| I think the best comment is this in Ars:
|
| "The reason stuff like this doesn't succeed isn't because you
| can't do it, it's because few people are willing to pay for the
| increased costs or other tradeoffs to get something
| repairable/configurable/upgradeable."
|
| Which is a same, but it is what it is...
| Causality1 wrote:
| How about an option for actual damn buttons on my touchpad so I
| can tell where right click is?
| apricot wrote:
| Not a terribly important question in the grand scheme of things,
| but what's the rationale behind making the \ key and the Enter
| key touch each other? I've seen it on other keyboards as well and
| cannot imagine what's gained by doing it.
| ali-tny wrote:
| Perhaps it's to make things (slightly) easier for people used
| to ISO layout keyboards? You could set both touching keys to be
| enter, and not have to relearn muscle memory - kind of, because
| you'd still have a weirdly long lower-enter compared to what
| you were used to.
| nfw2 wrote:
| The purpose of this feature is to ward off those of us with
| design OCD. We are the most annoying users to support
| vermaden wrote:
| So its now innovative to get back to 2010 and re-create old
| ThinkPad laptop with unusable 'island' keyboard? :)
| sto_hristo wrote:
| This is something i need. I just can't bring myself into
| purchasing a laptop of any brand due to the black boxing and lack
| of upgrades. Sticking to desktop until this stagnated market
| exist the cave.
|
| In terms of design i value optimal decisions without going into
| extremities such as thinnest possible at all costs. Logo on the
| CRT-level of thickness bezels - nonsense.
|
| Bookmarking this and waiting for the reviews.
| mrtweetyhack wrote:
| WTF you include a screwdriver? I mean a majority, if not all of
| us already have multiple screwdrivers. Stupid.
| mjgs wrote:
| I'm definitely down with laptops that have parts that are fully
| replaceable. It's not something you really think about until it's
| too late, and as such can really land you in some serious issues
| depending on where you are located in the world.
|
| On a related note, why is it that Linux desktop hardware
| compatibility is such a hit or miss affair?
|
| I would have thought that given the ethos of the platform and the
| sheer number of people using Linux worldwide this could be a
| solvable problem.
|
| I read about VLCs 20 birthday recently and one of the things that
| made it such an amazing piece of software was that it came
| bundled with every single codec imaginable. It was revolutionary
| at the time that it just played literally every single video file
| you had in your computer. My point is, that it is possible.
|
| If there was a website a bit like caniuse.com, that listed every
| Linux distro and test results with various hardware. People could
| register to be 'drafted' to test new releases, and there could
| also be associated discussion forums for workarounds etc.
|
| Even if it was just for laptop hardware, it would be amazing. Not
| knowing if an expensive purchased laptop will work or not is such
| a big barrier to entry.
| jblow wrote:
| Hi,
|
| When I saw this announcement I was hoping that I could finally
| buy a laptop with a good trackpad, with buttons, and a good
| keyboard again. But looking at the announcement, it seems like
| trackpad and keyboard quality are far from anyone's mind, and it
| just looks like the laptop is copying Apple stylistically like
| everyone else, which means it is going to be kind-of unusable and
| I won't want to use it. (Especially when running Windows, those
| kinds of giant Apple-esque trackpads are death, because you'll
| keep accidentally moving files into places you didn't mean to,
| and then of course there's the general unresponsiveness once you
| add all the PalmCheck and turn-off-trackpad-for-n-secons after
| typing junk).
|
| I like the idea of a laptop built for quality, but for me the #1
| determinant of quality is my area of constant physical contact
| with the laptop, the keyboard and trackpad. And sadly, those look
| like afterthoughts here.
|
| (For context -- I have bought and heavily used an average of more
| than one laptop per year, every year, since 1998, and have been
| dismayed to watch the quality trend constantly downward over that
| time).
| ppezaris wrote:
| not intending to start an apple-vs-msft flamewar, but this has
| been a solved problem on the mac since forever. is the
| experience that bad on windows laptops that you don't want a
| big trackpad? genuine question.
| yunyu wrote:
| It is for Synaptics drivers (some manufacturers like Dell,
| Razer, HP used to default to those) but not for precision
| touchpad drivers (what's used in the Surfaces).
| freeone3000 wrote:
| yeah. you definitely want palm detection off or it'll miss a
| good deal of swipes (if you mix typing and mousing). with
| palm detection off, you need the touchpad to be slightly
| offset to the left and small enough that it fits between your
| hands at rest.
| wishinghand wrote:
| It's strange to see a complaint about the Apple trackpad,
| because whenever I use a non-Apple laptop, I despair at the
| trackpad. The current design is too large, but the pre-USB-C
| models had a perfect size and UX. I haven't ever experienced an
| equal.
| GordonS wrote:
| The Apple trackpad seems to be really polarising - I often
| this see on HN: fans surprised anyone would dislike it, and
| opponents surprised anyone _would_ like it!
|
| Personally, I'm in the latter camp. I have a 13" MBP, and
| find the buttons need way too much pressure, even with the
| sensitivity ramped up. There's also something I can't
| quantify... there's a feeling of it being laggy, and somehow
| "unpleasant" to drag my finger across. I prefer just about
| every other trackpad I've ever used, even those in dirt cheap
| netbooks.
| codezero wrote:
| I suspect it has something to do with their typing habits
| and/or some physical issue.
|
| Personally, the newest Macbooks became a problem for me
| despite the history of amazing palm rejection on Macbooks,
| I have sort of sweaty hands and when they increased the
| trackpad size, that combined with how I type (palm resting
| on the chassis, not raised), it causes a lot of jitter (I
| say a lot, it's super rare, but just enough to train me
| away from it) and I've ended up using an external mouse
| exclusively, but in the past year, uh, I haven't been
| mobile so that's just a nonissue :)
| krrrh wrote:
| "Buttons"
|
| Not sure if we're talking about the same thing with that
| plural, but the first thing I change on a new Mac is
| enabling tap to click. It works great and you can avoid the
| annoyance of the audible click.
|
| The second thing is to enable three finger drag, which the
| moves into Accessibility settings about 5 years ago.
| erikpukinskis wrote:
| Yes, all that. And then turn the sensitivity up to max.
| nrp wrote:
| Keyboard and touchpad quality were high priorities for us. We
| built in 1.5mm key travel, which is unusually high for a <16mm
| thick laptop. The touchpad surface feels great and performs
| well. I hear you on the touchpad buttons though. That is
| something we've done a little exploration on. The touchpad is
| an end-user replaceable module, but we can't commit to a three
| button version materializing just yet.
| accelbred wrote:
| Are they mechanical keys?
| m463 wrote:
| I think if you could buck the "flat thin keys" trend you
| would probably develop lots of customers for life.
|
| Thin and flat has nice visual appeal, but I think you should
| approach it from a tactile direction.
|
| My ideal keyboard would have a little extra throw, and they
| keys would be sculpted to match the curve of your fingertips
| for comfort and to help you center on the keys.
|
| I think the thinkpad keyboards were favorites for a reason.
| tomtheelder wrote:
| No buttons is clearly the logical choice. I can't imagine it
| would be worth building a three button version to satisfy
| that miniscule niche.
| Liskni_si wrote:
| Key travel isn't everything. The layout is important as well.
|
| This is the best layout humanity ever invented: https://www.n
| otebookcheck.net/fileadmin/_processed_/c/0/csm_...
|
| Classic arrow keys, separate volume buttons, separate
| back/forward/pageup/pagedown, F1-F12 as the primary
| functions, ...
| rplnt wrote:
| While I agree with you one the F keys and home block, I
| also understand that's something that people might not
| prefer.
|
| What I don't understand are the arrows. I've been using MB
| Pro daily for over 3 years now and I still regularly miss
| up/down arrows. I would never buy a device that merges them
| into size of one key as the MB Pro does, as well as this
| one.
| croh wrote:
| haha fn on extreme left. are you kidding?
| Liskni_si wrote:
| Fn position is obviously configurable. I have ctrl/fn
| swapped, but plenty of people don't, and that's fine.
| (And then plently of people have ctrl on capslock, which
| is also fine. I couldn't get used to it.)
| [deleted]
| layer8 wrote:
| Full-sized (full-height!) F keys, full-sized inverted-T
| arrow keys, dedicated Ins/Del/Home/End/PgUp/PgDown keys,
| and the Menu key (as on the Thinkpad) would be ideal.
| com2kid wrote:
| See, I disagree, I use home/end/pageup/pagedown all the
| time, and having them separate in an awkward spot is
| annoying. I prefer having them overlaid on the arrow keys,
| with fn to access them. IMHO that is the one area laptop
| keyboards can superior to full size keyboards.
| Liskni_si wrote:
| We probably need laptops with configurable keyboard
| layouts then, so that you can choose a variant when
| purchasing it and then replace it with different one if
| you find out you don't like it.
|
| (And then, let's not forget that keyboard layouts are
| somewhat configurable in software. It's easy to bind
| pageup to mod-uparrow and pagedown to mod-downarrow. But
| it can't be done if the physical keys are missing, so
| physical keyboard layouts with more keys are preferable
| to those with less keys. Unfortunately fn-combos are
| usually hardwired in the Embedded Controller and can't be
| changed easily in software.)
| fsflover wrote:
| > We probably need laptops with configurable keyboard
| layouts then
|
| https://puri.sm/posts/librem-14-adding-librem-ec-freed-
| embed...
| Liskni_si wrote:
| By configurable, I mainly meant the physical layout of
| keys, configurable at purchase time. So that one can get
| a laptop with a trendy 6-row chiclet, or a proper 7-row
| classic ThinkPad keyboard.
|
| But yeah, being able to override the key mapping in EC is
| an important feature as well, and I'm glad someone's
| doing it! I really hope for the future where all these
| pieces come together: a laptop with a good physical
| keyboard (configurable/swappable, so that everyone can
| get their meaning of "good"), with configurable EC,
| replaceable components, etc. That would be a dream.
| jpetso wrote:
| This is what makes newer ThinkPad keyboard layouts great
| at least in terms of arrow keys - the useless icon keys
| from the GP's posted image are now PgUp/PgDown, meaning
| you can access at least two out of the four without
| annoying two-handed operation. Home/End can still be
| bound to arrow keys plus modifier, but even there it's
| nice to have a dedicated key available.
|
| Basically, full-size arrow keys are what really makes the
| difference, and at that point you could get the best of
| both worlds anyway.
|
| (Let's not talk about other recent/misguided ThinkPad
| keyboard developments though.)
| Liskni_si wrote:
| I actually use those "useless" keys (back/forward in the
| browser) more often than PgUp/PgDown, as I usually scroll
| using the touchpad.
|
| But it doesn't really matter, as long as the physical
| keys are there. They can be remapped.
| jpetso wrote:
| Never said they were useless! I also use them all the
| time. There is, however, only space for two extra keys in
| the holes of the four-arrow layout.
| eightails wrote:
| This is one of the reasons I actually really like the
| Surface Book keyboard [0]. It has
| home/end/pageup/pagedown as primary keys in the fn row,
| where they all fall to hand just by moving your right
| hand up from the home row.
|
| Key size and placement is generally pretty perfect for
| the size imo (backspace, shift, enter, etc aren't
| cramped), and key travel and feel is up there with the
| best.
|
| The up/down arrow keys and lack of brightness control in
| the fn row are the only real problems.
|
| [0] https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-
| content/uploads/2015/10/IMG_3...
| wishinghand wrote:
| At this point I'd prefer few keys, just 18 per side for my
| fingers and a row of 4-6 for each of my thumbs. I'd handle
| numbers, function keys, volume, and whatever else you
| mentioned with layers.
| layer8 wrote:
| Those keys already have their own layers in a lot of
| software. Having to press yet another additional modifier
| key destroys usability and muscle memory.
| wishinghand wrote:
| > Having to press yet another additional modifier key
| destroys usability and muscle memory
|
| I'm far more comfortable moving my fingers and thumbs as
| little as possible rather than having to stretch far and
| wide for those extra function keys.
| layer8 wrote:
| For me it's the opposite: I get RSI from having to
| stretch my hands to press 2-3 modifiers simultaneously,
| whereas moving my hands a bit is no problem.
| wishinghand wrote:
| Right, which is why I wanted the non-stretching version.
| The modifiers are quite reachable with about 50-52 keys.
| rgoulter wrote:
| If there are different preferences for arrangement of
| keyboard layout, then my vote goes to: it would be
| amazing if there were a laptop where such things could be
| customized. Then the people who want niche 40% or 36-key
| layouts can go with that, and those who prefer more keys
| can go with that.
|
| IMO, the row-stagger is an unergonomic, archaic
| skeuomorphism. This is also a niche opinion.
|
| Unfortunately, I'm sure there are practical reasons why
| "modular keyboard" can't happen (not enough market
| interest, strength of the laptop hull suffers if the
| keyboard is a separate module, laptop couldn't be as
| thin, etc.).
| nine_k wrote:
| I'm a big fan of Thinkpad keyboards, too.
|
| But am I the only person considering a split ergonomic
| layout with thumb clusters, to give your pinkies some rest?
| The touchpad could live between the keyboard halves, and
| never be touched by mistake.
|
| I wonder if that could be an option.
| dcow wrote:
| In my experience trackpad and touch support on Windows has
| improved immensely since the introduction of the Surface. I
| recall the experience you're describing but associate it with
| the 2010-2015 era .
| rodolphoarruda wrote:
| This is really a great idea! Congrats to the team.
|
| I didn't read the entire text, but here's my question: do you
| have in your plans to ship worldwide.
| essence_sentry wrote:
| I love it guys, please take my money!
| john4532452 wrote:
| This is really cool. What does 1.5mm keyboard mean ? Does it mean
| 15mm, because 1.5 mm is too small to feel at the fingers.
| max_ wrote:
| How much would this thing cost? Can it run an RTX GPU?
| umutseven92 wrote:
| If this works nicely with Linux I'll buy it day one.
| nelsonenzo wrote:
| pricing?
| heroHACK17 wrote:
| This product would make more sense if they defined "consumer" as
| "engineer-inclined consumer". Swapping parts will drive the
| everyday consumer away from this product.
| orthecreedence wrote:
| No? This opens up an entire repair market for normal consumers
| as well. Instead of buying a whole new laptop, you can replace
| the screen, or the keyboard, or etc etc.
|
| Just because you won't be doing the repair yourself doesn't
| mean "welp, repairable laptops are dumb and only nerds will use
| them!" Just means you don't have to buy a new laptop every time
| one little thing breaks.
| malkia wrote:
| Huh, not sure but site was not available through my company's
| VPN. It works though outside of it.
| antoineMoPa wrote:
| Can we replace the Windows key by a Tux key?
| ampdepolymerase wrote:
| So a ThinkPad in Mac shell? Is the framework flexible enough to
| switch an Intel processor for AMD Ryzen without having to replace
| the entire motherboard?
| rrss wrote:
| No. You can't even do that in a desktop. AMD and Intel CPUs
| don't use the same socket or pinout.
| gravyboat wrote:
| Seems neat but using Intel chips over AMD is an immediate deal
| breaker for me.
| f6v wrote:
| > with the ability to choose Windows or install your preferred
| Linux distribution.
|
| 10$ says it's going to be quite an effort to run Linux on it.
| Nice idea though.
| nrp wrote:
| We're putting in the work ourselves to make sure the most
| common distributions like Ubuntu LTS releases run smoothly. We
| had that in mind as we selected key components in the system.
|
| Edit: And it's worth noting that a couple of folks on the team
| are diehard Linux users, including our software/firmware lead,
| and they run Ubuntu on their Framework Laptops.
| base698 wrote:
| Shut up and take my money!
| rathboma wrote:
| With s3 sleep support for linux you will get my business :-)
| kieranl wrote:
| Kieran from Framework Here - Using it as my main machine for
| development running Ubuntu 20.04 right now. The main tweak is
| running a mainline kernel with some distributions as Tigerlake
| support is new.
| auraham wrote:
| Nice to see that many of the developers/members of the team
| are GNU/Linux users. I would like to see if it can run other
| popular distros, like Elementary.
| kiwijamo wrote:
| Debian too. Although the fact they use Ubuntu suggests
| Debian support should be a given.
| f6v wrote:
| Don't get me wrong, it'd be great to have a good Linux laptop
| on the market. However, I've read too many Dell XPS reviews
| to stay on Mac(which is suboptimal due to the nature of my
| work). There's always something that is misbehaving on Linux
| laptops: WiFi, the sleep mode(i.e. you open the laptop and
| it's ready to work), touchpad, fingerprint reader. Maybe it's
| too much to ask, but i) is your laptop MacBook-level smooth
| on Linux ii) how could you achieve it when big players with
| much more resources failed?
| kiwijamo wrote:
| I bought a Lenovo X1 Carbon expecting excatly the situation
| you describe so stuck with the preinstalled Windows 10 for
| some months. I was pleasantly surprised when I summoned up
| the courage to try Debian. I had no trouble at all with all
| you described except the fingerprint reader (which Windows
| 10 also had trouble with FWIW). Was not planning on Linux
| as my daily driver but from Day 1 it worked well enough as
| an immediate replacement for Windows 10. The trackpad is
| not quite as good as the Mac but again seemed on par with
| the experience in Windows 10. Surprised you stayed on Mac
| despite listing fingerprint reader as a must have--I'm not
| aware Mac laptops have these?
| f6v wrote:
| Fingerprint reader is definitely not the top priority,
| but saves a lot of typing when retrieving a password from
| the password manager. And yes, I think all MBPs that have
| a Touch Bar had one, new airs as well.
|
| How's battery life and thermals under Debian? I guess all
| Intel CPUs get hot, but at least my MBP is quiet enough.
| Battery life life isn't that great though.
| SilverRed wrote:
| The Dell XPS works fine on Linux if you get a model that is
| at least 6 months old. Usually what happens is on day one
| people go and add support for the wifi card and then it
| takes 6 months for ubuntu to ship a version that includes
| that support.
|
| After using both a macbook and a dell xps on linux this
| year, I'm a whole lot happier using the dell xps. The XPS
| has functional cooling at least.
| rathboma wrote:
| Any luck with fingerprint sensor drivers? I know that's a big
| problem. Still not working on my 4yo thinkpad
| sleepybrett wrote:
| Hints of the Sandbenders stuff from gibson's Idoru. But like the
| modular smartphone products (fairphone, essential phone, etc)
| probably doomed to failure.
| iFire wrote:
| Will you support Thunderbolt 3?
|
| The use of going portable and then docking in with a top of the
| line video card, monitor and proper keyboards is so exciting.
| kieranl wrote:
| We support USB4 - which has similar performance as thunderbolt
| 3. Multiple display pipes + USB + PCIE tunneling. It also
| supports 40gbps of aggregate bandwidth per port. Tigerlake also
| supports HBR3 with display compression - so you can run
| multiple 4k displays from a single port.
| iFire wrote:
| USB4 is documented to be upward compatible with Thunderbolt
| 3.
|
| Thanks for the response.
|
| Will be wanting to try
| https://www.sonnettech.com/product/egfx-breakaway-
| box/overvi... on The Framework Laptop.
|
| Excited!
| saurabhnanda wrote:
| I feel horrible whenever I end-up damaging an electronics product
| in such a way that repairs do not make any monetary sense. Mostly
| this is because the manufacturer doesn't bother in building out a
| healthy service network for their product because they'd rather
| force you to buy a new model.
|
| If priced right, I'll buy this as my next laptop. And the next
| phone as well -- if they ever launch one.
| LindaGsd97 wrote:
| Wanna casual sekh? My pussy is at uour disposal! Find my profile
| with rhone number here -->
| https://news.ycombinator.com@oo.lc/kERN2
| branon wrote:
| This looks great. Would like to see a model with a Zen 3 or ARM
| processor, as buying Intel hardware in 2021 is a bit of a hard
| sell for me.
|
| Outside of that, anything modular/repairable gets an A+.
| wcerfgba wrote:
| Agreed, I love everything about this but I'm currently waiting
| to buy something with a 5800H.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| Hmmm nice idea but they left some obvious gaps.. With custom port
| selection, there should be more port options, like ethernet. The
| chassis is thick enough to support one of those collapsible
| sockets at the very least.
| nrp wrote:
| We have a few more Expansion Cards currently in development and
| a very long list of cards in early exploration. The ones we've
| announced so far are the ones we plan to have available at
| launch: USB-C, USB-A, HDMI, DisplayPort, MicroSD, and 250GB and
| 1TB storage.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| Are the expansion cards large enough to accommodate a full-
| size SD card slot? My current laptop has a PCIe-attached SD
| card reader and it serves dual-use as storage for my windows
| VM and getting files off of my camera. The micro-SD cards
| I've tried are just too slow to run as the system disk for a
| windows VM.
| nrp wrote:
| Full-size SD was actually what we intended to accommodate
| when we set the dimensions of the Expansion Card. We
| started with MicroSD/UFS Card though because it allowed us
| to keep tooling in common with our other cards. We would
| like to do full-size SD as well though.
| dang wrote:
| Threads are paginated for performance reasons (yes we're working
| on it), so to see the rest of the comments you need to click More
| at the bottom of the page, or like this:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26263508&p=2
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26263508&p=3
|
| Apologies for the annoying repetition. It will eventually go
| away.
| pachico wrote:
| This is just great and I wish then the best of luck. I will
| seriously consider them for my next laptop!
| marcodiego wrote:
| What is really needed is a common chassis. A common carcass that
| allows me the put whatever I want inside it. If I want a
| pinebook[1], I want to be able to put pinebook guts inside it, if
| I want a mnt reform[2], I want to be able to put mnt reform guts
| inside it.
|
| Too bad eoma68[3] is still sci-fi.
|
| [1] https://www.pine64.org/pinebook-pro/
|
| [2] https://mntre.com/media/reform_md/2020-05-08-the-much-
| more-p...
|
| [3] https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop
| CivBase wrote:
| > What is really needed is a common chassis.
|
| I agree. I understand why that wasn't a thing 10 years ago
| while laptops continued to get thinner and bezels continued to
| get smaller and I/O was rapidly changing and evolving. Modern
| laptops are much more consistent, and standards like M.2 and
| USB-C have provide excellent support for low-profile expansion.
| Now seems like a great time to start rolling out standards for
| laptop motherboard connectivity, display housing,
| keyboard/trackpad housing, and I/O bays.
| warmwaffles wrote:
| That's not where the money is though unfortunately. It's why
| manufacturers like the solder on components. Easier to
| manufacture and make as small as possible. I hate it, and
| think it's bad for consumers.
| CivBase wrote:
| We managed to get standards like that on desktops though.
| What's specifically different about modern laptops?
| asdff wrote:
| And those standards are shifting away too. See recent
| iMacs and Mac Minis.
| uluyol wrote:
| Size, heat, weight, and noise are more challenging for
| laptop design than desktops. Desktops tend to have things
| spread out much more and you just don't care about some
| of these issues.
| CivBase wrote:
| Size and weight would definitely need to be consider by
| component manufacturers, but it doesn't seem like that
| big of a problem when it comes to standardizing a laptop
| chassis.
|
| Heat and noise are definitely bigger concerns since a
| compact laptop cannot rely on large radiators, fans, and
| liquid cooling loops for cooling. But if you standardize
| the screw holes and socket positions on motherboards and
| graphics cards, I see no reason why a chassis couldn't
| ship with their own case-specific cooling solutions which
| leverage heat pipes and low-profile fans to provide
| cooling. Processor locations are already pretty
| consistent on desktop motherboards and graphics cards, so
| this wouldn't be something particularly new.
| scythe wrote:
| If the only barrier to building your own laptop was
| soldering the components together, _I 'd_ have built one
| already.
| vbezhenar wrote:
| They like solder because it's more reliable.
| soared wrote:
| I would expect this is similar to the tesla issue of building a
| common carcass (skateboard) to build different types of cars on
| top of.
| vforvendettador wrote:
| There's a lot more to building laptop than putting different
| components together. Portability, mobility, heat dissipation,
| design to put as many things as safely (and profitably)
| possible etc.
|
| Building a desktop is relatively easy. Desktop is designed to
| be stationary and it's a _lot_ more forgiving when connecting
| parts. There 's a lot more room to manoeuvre and for heat
| dissipation.
|
| I think to achieve the purpose, where end-user will be able
| easily customise a laptop will require a larger footprint and
| won't be appealing to many users.
| mtrovo wrote:
| In some sense Thinkpad X200 would fit what you're saying, its
| modding community is quite active and there are a lot of people
| selling old parts or parts designed to upgrade this laptop.
|
| Last time I checked the only missing piece was a way to upgrade
| the display, which didn't age very well (IIRC original
| resolution was 1280x800 and no HiDPI)
| eeZah7Ux wrote:
| The form factor of EOMA is simply unsuitable. Compared to any
| laptop motherboard or SBC, the volume available in the slot is
| tiny.
| danbolt wrote:
| Part of me feels like by the time we get an interchangeable
| laptop/phone, it will be a bit like the PC where interchangeable
| parts were used off-the-shelf instead of custom made.
| giberson wrote:
| I like the idea of a repairable/upgradable/modular laptop.
| However, to really buy in to the idea I want more than a promise
| of future upgradability. I'd really like to see a company roadmap
| that shows expected future dates of upgrade releases.
|
| Show me if you're expecting to put out new CPU upgrade parts
| every 1, 2, 3 or 5 years.
|
| Show me what type/generation of graphic card is available and
| your expectation of how far behind graphic card modules will lag
| behind current gen cards, 1,3,5,10 years?
|
| Show me how long I'll expect to have to wait to double my
| storage, or ram.
|
| And most of all, what are the target price points of current and
| future upgrades.
| metalliqaz wrote:
| roadmaps are meaningless. talk is cheap. Just ask anyone who
| has ever bought into a "live service" video game, or countless
| other ambitious but later abandoned products.
|
| Here's what I can say for sure. The options for future upgrades
| will be correlated with the sales figures of the base laptop.
| parski wrote:
| I love that it's repairable and upgradeable but that Intel chip
| has to go.
| Klonoar wrote:
| Just two months ago I posted this comment here on HN, bemoaning
| the state of laptops:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25565148
|
| You all have made me very, very happy this morning. This is an
| amazing start!
| jrmann100 wrote:
| This looks like a fantastic, albeit potentially costly, product,
| and I'm excited to see where it goes. For those of us who are
| happy with our current laptops but are still excited by the
| customizability of the Expansion Card system, are you considering
| creating USB-C hubs designed to work with the modules? The Cards
| obviously already adapt to USB-C but it'd be nice to have a
| dedicated hub to stack them and save space.
| nrp wrote:
| A controller just became available that makes this more doable.
| It is something we're exploring to broaden the usability of the
| Expansion Cards.
| Epskampie wrote:
| Please consider making the left and right arrow keys half-height,
| so you can easily feel them out by hand. Macbook recently made
| this change with good reason. I've got the older model, and it's
| hell if you're used to a standard keyboard.
| dethos wrote:
| This is awesome, has the same "spirit" of the Fairphone. I think
| this is the direction the industry should be moving. However it
| will not be easy to break this vicious and wasteful cycle that
| feeds many companies nowadays.
| RMPR wrote:
| > install your preferred Linux distribution.
|
| Where do I sign? I can't help but wonder if those won't be more
| expensive than a same specs Laptop. It would totally be
| understandable but still...
| andrewrothman wrote:
| Looks great. I'd love something like this. I assume it charges
| over USB-C? Any chance we can get a video of the laptop in-use,
| and maybe a few shots of it next to other popular laptops?
|
| Great design/hardware. Specifically the high res 3:2 display,
| camera privacy guard, and the weight. And the repairability /
| upgradability is awesome.
| lukaszkups wrote:
| are different keyboard layouts even considered?
|
| I hate those small up/down arrows.
|
| Would also love to see the keyboard layout with additional column
| on the right (with PgUp, PgDown, Ins, Del etc. keys) like Mech-15
| from Eluktronics have.
| Sebb767 wrote:
| This looks great, I _really_ hope this becomes sustainable and a
| long running model.
|
| I've upgraded my laptop just in 2020, but when Ryzen-based
| mainboards and some high-bandwith plugins (10 Gbit SFP+/RJ45 or
| Thunderbolt) become available, this will definitely go on the
| list. So best of luck to you to become mainstream, so that these
| niche-parts can be cross-financed ;)
| albertzeyer wrote:
| I would love a 15" (or larger) version of such a laptop. I hope
| this comes soon.
|
| Also some other options for CPU and GPU would be nice. (AMD CPU.
| Maybe Nvidia GPU for CUDA. Or maybe even some ARM CPU?)
|
| How long does the battery last in this?
|
| Will this be available in Europe? (Or rather when?)
| cortexio wrote:
| Why does the lady on the homepage keep changing the same parts? I
| mean how long is the video? i'm 1 hour in.
| bfrog wrote:
| No pointer nib, no buy.
| gohbgl wrote:
| I like the idea, but I will 100% not buy it for these reasons
| (most important first): 1. Bad keyboard layout: Small arrow keys,
| lack of dedicated home/end and page up/down. 2. Screen is too
| small. I need at least 15.6 inch. 3. Replaceable ports are a
| gimmick. They waste space. Just put the ports there directly. 4.
| Intel CPU.
| 0xbadcafebee wrote:
| I use a 5 year old IdeaPad 510S with a Core i7 and SSD, and I
| have no reason to replace it yet. I _did_ upgrade the single 8GB
| stick to 16GB just for the heck of it. But I can 't imagine
| needing a new one for another few years at least, it feels plenty
| fast (and I'm the nutter with 80+ tabs open)
| mwcampbell wrote:
| > Designed for the future of work with a 13.5" 3:2 screen
|
| I wonder if the "future" this laptop is designed for was canceled
| by COVID. Now that so many of us are working from home, maybe we
| should optimize more for a stationary work environment with no
| compromises on input or output. That is, a desktop machine with
| unconstrained monitor and keyboard sizes.
| salicideblock wrote:
| On the other hand, for more traditional companies, covid and
| expectations of post-covid mean replacing 100% office time with
| a mix of office and home time.
|
| In these cases this mix means more mobility, so more value to
| laptops over desktops.
| ezzato wrote:
| Are the privacy switches hardware or software based?
| jakry wrote:
| Is the Laptop also available with a AMD ryzen CPU?
| enchiridion wrote:
| Yep, this is my question too. If not is the CPU swapable?
|
| Especially given that this product appeals to the PC builder
| types, it really should support AMD.
| tkinom wrote:
| Intel to AMD CPU swap is impossible.
|
| They definitively should design it to support motherboard
| swapping.
|
| Or maybe even swap to ARM base motherboard when/if 8,16,32
| cores ARM base CPU with 3-15watts is available and ready.
| nrp wrote:
| We've designed the Framework Laptop for end-user
| motherboard swaps from CPU platform to CPU platform. We
| minimized the cost of that move by keeping the memory,
| storage, and WiFi socketed.
| foft wrote:
| I'd be keen to make an FPGA based custom cpu board to go in,
| presuming they release port pinouts, timings and signalling
| details. This could be used for hardware laptop versions of
| legacy computers - Amiga, ST, Atari 800XL etc. Particularly if
| there is a slot for custom external ports to be exposed.
| aagha wrote:
| Really interesting, but I wish the decision had been to go down
| the path of using AMD Ryzen rather than Intel: Cheaper, faster,
| and better battery life.
| andix wrote:
| I don't see the point.
|
| I get myself a new ThinkPad every 3-6 years. The devices are
| completely repairable, every part can be exchanged. After the
| warranty period though, a lot of repairs don't make sense any
| more.
|
| After my usage period of a few years, nearly every part of the
| device is worn out. The case is scratched and sometimes broken.
| The screen too. The battery (probably the 2nd or 3rd) reached the
| end of its life. The logic board including CPU and GPU is not
| strong enough any more for the newest software. I don't want to
| continue using the SSD, because the wear level went up, and I
| don't want to lose my data.
|
| Normally I give away the device as a present, for some one who
| has less demands in a laptop than I do. I probably could also
| sell it to a refurbishment company.
|
| So what would be the benefit with that laptop?
| zafiro17 wrote:
| Hey wow, I love this idea, this design philosophy, and this
| commitment to reuse. It occurs to me it may also solve another
| complaint I've always had with laptops, that you have to find the
| machine whose screen, trackpad, keyboard, weight, etc. ALL match
| your wishlist (with a desktop you buy the display you want, the
| external keyboard you want, the external mouse/trackball you
| want). This device lends itself to customization, almost like an
| ecosystem: hopefully some day they will offer a Dvorak, Workman,
| and Colemak keyboard variant, or similar customizations. Better
| yet, open it up to niche customized hardware manufacturers and
| make it a market. Suddenly it becomes the substrate for an
| ecosystem of customized components. I love this idea. (For
| reference, my current approach to hardware reuse is to
| sytematically only buy used laptops. I save a ton of money too).
| nrp wrote:
| We do plan to offer Dvorak, Workman, and Colemak keyboards. In
| a normal laptop, it would never really be feasible to do this
| because you'd be sitting on a lot of really niche, expensive
| inventory. In our case, the input assembly is one of the
| configurable items in the Framework Laptop DIY Edition, so we
| only have to stock the variants of that module, rather than
| full laptops.
|
| This lets us cover languages and layouts that have historically
| been missing from notebooks.
| jhatemyjob wrote:
| How does this have 1400 upvotes. It's literally just a landing
| page for an unshipped laptop
| spion wrote:
| 2256x1504 resolution
|
| Finally, someone that knows about the sweet spot between fuzzy
| looking FHD and inevitably slow 4K. I'd buy this laptop just for
| that bit of (nowadays rare) common-sense thinking.
|
| Webcam is just icing on the cake.
|
| Hope the keyboard is more similar to a Thinkpad rather than a
| Macbook. Even if not, I'm sure that will become an option soon if
| the project is a success
| pimterry wrote:
| How does this charge? Looks like it has 4 fully swappable ports,
| plus a headphone jack. Where does the power go?
|
| Do I need to always have a USB-C adapter in one of those slots,
| and it charges through that maybe? That sort-of defeats some of
| the swappability though, if one port is effectively unchangeable.
| Might as well have a fixed USB-C port, since that's simpler and
| more space-efficient. Or is there another port or something
| planned that's just not shown on these prototypes?
| nrp wrote:
| It charges through any of the four Expansion Card ports,
| currently through the USB-C card. Part of the reason we didn't
| use a fixed USB-C port for this is that the Expansion Card path
| allows for alternate power schemes in the future like magnetic
| attach, adapting to existing proprietary connectors, or even
| crazy things like POE.
| rock_artist wrote:
| It's really refreshing initiative in the laptop market. But how
| are those planned to be distributed outside the us?
|
| Will they use local distributors like other companies?
|
| Are they expect to have international warranty?
| dash2 wrote:
| The problem is that non-repairability has an economic logic.
| Essentially, you make a machine with a rather predictable
| lifetime. It is the equivalent of renting the machine out. You're
| can then offer support for that time period. If the time period
| is long enough, customers will want to upgrade the whole caboodle
| at the end. Everyone's happy. And with the focus on a single
| product, you have the scale to pour resources into product
| design.
|
| This approach will attract demanding customers - like the hn
| crowd - who will put demands on support as they customize and
| tinker. Then, if they extend it a lot, they'll likely buy from
| other suppliers who free-ride off your development work. So you
| lose repeat custom.
|
| Tl;dr: there's a reason why modern cars don't have easily
| accessible engines, and do come with fixed-term support packages.
| Bundling works. It may even be best for the consumer.
| tommica wrote:
| I really hope this is successful, and that I could afford one of
| those some day, even as a pre-owned!
| mushufasa wrote:
| reminds me of this https://www.ebay.com/b/CardBus-Laptop-Port-
| Expansion-Card/42...
| blainsmith wrote:
| Great. Another laptop with 1/2 arrow keys. Such a shame.
| chrismorgan wrote:
| I would strongly urge, if going with half-height arrow keys, to
| make the side arrows half height as well, rather than full
| height. This helps with both finding the key cluster and using
| it. Consider leaving a small gap to the left of the cluster as
| well, which in this case could conveniently be done by making
| the keys a bit narrower--they look unreasonably wide as it is.
| Ideally I'd also say shift them lower, breaking out of the
| rectangle and allowing taller arrows (even 2/3 or 3/4 height
| would be a good improvement), but I can imagine that may fall
| afoul of manufacturing practicalities.
|
| Another nice feature for keyboard design is small gaps between
| Esc and F1, F4 and F5, F8 and F9, and F12 and what's to its
| right, as desktop keyboards have always done; this helps
| fingers to blindly find the right place. Not very many laptops
| do this; the main ones I've noticed doing it in my recent
| research is ASUS ROG laptops, which do seem to put more thought
| than most into these sorts of details. In the pictures shown
| here, the Escape and especially Delete keys look to be
| unnecessarily wide so that you could reduce their widths a bit
| to provide this space perhaps without shrinking anything else.
| blainsmith wrote:
| I have noticed that most laptops under 14" have those 1/2 keys,
| but once you go to 15" the overall weight increases a lot. The
| only 14" laptop I've used with full arrow keys was the System76
| Galago Pro Gen 3 (galp3).
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| I feel you. IMHO Lenovo still makes the best laptop keybaord
| layouts for coding, typing and gaming. Check out their Legion
| series.
| blainsmith wrote:
| I agree. If I ever get a new machine it will be a Lenovo. The
| build quality is amazing.
| mumblemumble wrote:
| The hjkl keys look full size to me.
|
| _ducks_
| wp381640 wrote:
| a refined man, could have said wasd
| mumblemumble wrote:
| just be glad I didn't say dhtn.
| blainsmith wrote:
| Haha. I have adapted to that too, but why even bother with
| 1/2 keys then. The look like an afterthought.
| mumblemumble wrote:
| It's probably difficult to build a laptop with mass market
| appeal if it's only trying to sell to vi people.
| imwillofficial wrote:
| You are more brave than I
| mettamage wrote:
| Yea, fun fact: I like my Acer Nitro 5. I'm an Apple fan through
| and through, but I also like to run Linux and Windows and
| haven't done that in a while, so I bought an Acer.
|
| I'm using my Acer now more as a dev laptop and my Mac more as a
| free time laptop. What I'm noticing is that I'm enjoying the
| typing experience on the Nitro 5 more, in particular because it
| has decent arrows (and a numpad :) ).
| loop0 wrote:
| They have my attention here. As a long time thinkpad x220 user
| and tons of mods and upgrades in it I like the repairability
| approach. As a linux user I would prefer if they had an all AMD
| option.
|
| Congrats on this project, I hope you folks succeed and bring more
| companies to make laptops/hardware with the same approach.
| conductr wrote:
| My current work laptop has ports that get blocked when docked.
| Don't do that
| grenoire wrote:
| Is the upgrade system proprietary, i.e. will I be able to get in
| new parts besides RAM and disks when Framework is no more?
|
| Will we ever get a laptop component system that's as robust and
| modular as the desktop ecosystem?
| burlesona wrote:
| > Will we ever get a laptop component system that's as robust
| and modular as the desktop ecosystem?
|
| No.
|
| The robust desktop ecosystem is powered by a bunch of
| categories that don't really want laptops: gamers, business,
| research, some developers, etc.
|
| Desktops are "work trucks" while laptops are mostly "cars."
| andrewmcwatters wrote:
| This is really cool, but I feel like the industry is missing
| something like ATX for laptops.
|
| That's what I really want. And hell, come out with a mini-ATX for
| laptops if you're concerned dimensions won't end up competitive.
| belval wrote:
| Lot of optimism in the comments, but unless they have their
| supply chain pinned down I really really doubt that it will ship
| in any significant quantity in Summer 2021.
|
| The truth is that right now most components are insanely hard to
| get, not just GPUs and they will have to play the bidding game
| (which will make their laptop significantly more expansive) or
| delay. For a small volume like theirs, there is a non zero
| probability that they will get dropped by their manufacturer
| completely.
|
| I'd love to get my hands on one of their laptop though!
| hinkley wrote:
| I'm on a kickstarter that was supposed to ship in the fall and
| they've had quite a lot of trouble working with manufacturing
| partners to sort out quality control and pick one. Harder to
| discuss a physical object when you can't be in the same room.
| nrp wrote:
| I shared this in another comment: We placed our forecasts and
| risk buys on most chips early in anticipation of the silicon
| crunch that is coming this year. So far, we don't see anything
| that puts us at risk, short of there being massive unexpected
| upside on consumer demand (a good problem to have!).
| belval wrote:
| That's great to hear, for the record I really really hope
| that the project will succeed, the current trend in laptops
| is soldering everything and we are generating an insane
| amount of waste.
| perlpimp wrote:
| man if you'd only squeeze mech keyboard in this shell or a little
| thicker.
| lorax_108 wrote:
| needs amd processor
| ctocoder wrote:
| Intel based? That adds a 35% markup. AMD or ARM I would think
| would be platforms one would invest in if making something new.
| grawp wrote:
| Wake me up when/if they do AMD version with verified ECC support.
| rathboma wrote:
| How much linux support are you going to be providing?
|
| Eg S3 sleep and fingerprint sensor drivers?
| kieranl wrote:
| Tigerlake supports modern standby otherwise known as S0ix. We
| are also testing fingerprint support - but look out for Linux
| guides for instructions until things get upstreamed.
| The_rationalist wrote:
| Note that while such projects are very promising, you can already
| get many customizations at buying time for regular laptops if you
| buy them on platforms such as https://www.hidevolution.com It
| allowed to change the RAM & Disk but more customization are
| possible
| [deleted]
| dheera wrote:
| > 2256x1504 resolution
|
| This seems like a dealbreaker for me. No 2160p option?
| agnosticmantis wrote:
| "At Framework, we believe the time has come for consumer
| electronics products that are designed to last."
|
| Is this another way of saying Moore's law is dead?
| sangnoir wrote:
| I think it's another way of saying "We're bringing back non-
| soldered RAM/storage and standard slots and not chasing after
| thinness for thinness sake".
| tommybu wrote:
| I love the initiative! It's in line with the right to repair
| movement which, considering the HN crowd, is more than welcome
| these days.
|
| I wonder though are there any plans to support coreboot?
| yannikyeo wrote:
| Will there be a version of keyboard without the Windows logo?
| dbeley wrote:
| For a laptop mainly targeting power users, I think it lacks
| several features for it to be a game changer:
|
| - trackpoint - real mouse buttons - exotic keyboard layouts (i.e
| ortholinear)
| unionpivo wrote:
| it has user replaceable TrackPoint and keyboard. So those could
| come later, if it succeeds.
|
| Plus they say it will support 3rd party developing accessories,
| so maybe ?
| werber wrote:
| I looked at this yesterday and loved the slide out adapters, then
| last night I had a dream my macbook had them. Haven't loved a
| concept so much it crept into my dreams via HN ever.
| EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK wrote:
| How many dongles can one install simultaneously? I see only 2 in
| the video. Are there more on the other side?
| nrp wrote:
| Four Expansion Cards, two on each side.
| mraza007 wrote:
| Reading about the project reminds me of Project Ara by Google as
| they were going to introduce modular phone where person can take
| on and take off the parts
| CarVac wrote:
| I'd love a laptop where the keyboard is a removable PCB with low-
| profile switches and integrated USB connection so you can make a
| custom layout, like the Mitosis or ortholinear or anything you
| please.
| leojfc wrote:
| Yes, I would buy any laptop which offered an ortholinear
| keyboard option, with customisable firmware.
|
| I switched to using an Ergodox after long hours working on a
| MacBook Pro made my wrists start to hurt and my pinkie finger
| to go numb (and this was back in the day when a MBP keyboard
| was still decent!). I can still type full speed on a regular
| keyboard but it doesn't feel as comfortable, and I think
| there's a genuine health issue at least for some people.
| maxharris wrote:
| One of the few things I like about my 13" MacBook Pro is that it
| isn't wedge-shaped, and the exterior design minimizes the number
| of lines and shapes a user sees from the outside. The chassis
| used in the Framework laptop is busy in comparison. I hope they
| decide to simplify the external design - this one is too busy, so
| I won't buy it.
|
| I don't like the way Apple is so user- and programmer-hostile, so
| the Framework laptop does have that going for it. I'm interested
| in this concept!
| burlesona wrote:
| Well, HN will love this. Moddable laptop with a good webcam?
| Nice.
|
| But:
|
| - I really dislike the arrow keys not having the air gap above
| left and right. You'd think they'd learn that from the MacBook
| butterfly keyboard era.
|
| - it's a little disingenuous to say "no adapters" when in fact
| their little expansion cards are merely adapters that insert into
| the chassis of the laptop. Only four I/O ports is a little tight
| (despite Apple deeming it to be "enough")
|
| - that laptop looks pretty thick and heavy by today's standards.
|
| It'll be interesting to see how people respond, when many
| (especially in this crowd) have been clamoring for this kind of
| thing. How many will actually vote with their dollars, and will
| that be enough for Framework to survive and become a viable
| competitor in the laptop space?
|
| I hope so, as I welcome the diversity and innovation that would
| represent. But I admit I'm skeptical as to their chances.
| gregmac wrote:
| > Only four I/O ports is a little tight
|
| Maybe, but how many do you really need?
|
| I have lots of stuff plugged in at my desk -- but it's plugged
| into a dock, and there's just a single cable that goes into my
| laptop. Thinking about my usages in the past few years, I can't
| think of a time where 4 ports (of my choosing) wouldn't have
| worked for me -- so long as I could change them over the
| lifetime of the device.
| intrasight wrote:
| If they indeed succeed in creating an open "platform" then if
| you don't like the keyboard, you can replace it with one that
| you do like.
| andrewflnr wrote:
| It's not "disingenuous". Everyone knows they're talking about
| external dongles because those are the kind of adapter that's
| actually annoying. Complaining about their modules because
| they're implemented in terms of USB-C is the worst kind of
| technically true but semantically nonsensical nitpick,
| precisely because it takes a long comment like this to unpack
| it but only a few words to make it.
| Sebb767 wrote:
| And, additionally, using USB-C is a common and widely used
| standard - slamming them for using that instead of something
| proprietary (to make it less "dongly") is really not a good
| thing.
| zerocrates wrote:
| I really do hate full-height left and right keys, they're
| strictly worse in my usage.
| nrp wrote:
| The arrow keys were an interesting challenge. We actually
| prototyped both versions, and the full height ones ended up
| feeling better to most folks. It's definitely a matter of
| personal preference though.
|
| The Framework Laptop comes in at 15.85mm thick and 1.3kg. So a
| couple of sheets of paper thicker than a 13" MacBook Pro, but a
| bit lighter.
|
| On the Expansion Cards, that is fair. We can say we're getting
| rid of the need for adapters that protrude from the machine and
| need to be removed when you need to transport it.
| mdpye wrote:
| How modular is the keyboard? I can see a replacement sat next
| to the case in the photo, but is the layout cut in to the
| case?
|
| If you can make an alternative case with an (e.g.) 12x5 1u
| grid layout keyboard that lets me put my thumbs to use and
| stop contorting my fingers, I will more of less open my
| wallet and let you take what you fancy!
| asoneth wrote:
| I came to say the same thing. Ortholinear (grid) or
| staggered columnar keyboards would appeal to an extremely
| small but passionate group of ergo keyboard users. Given
| that the alternative for folks who use this kind of layout
| is to carry around a separate $150-400[1] keyboard I think
| at least a few people would be willing to pay a hefty
| premium for a laptop with a customizable keyboard.
|
| [1] https://shop.keyboard.io/products/keyboardio-atreus
| https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/
| ajford wrote:
| What's the chance of a thicker/deeper version in the future?
| I'd love to see one with enough thickness to support a low
| profile mechanical keyboard for custom layouts.
|
| With my RSI, I'm almost unable to use standard laptop
| keyboards, so I have to travel with a split ergo keyboard.
| Most laptops have enough room to support a split ortho
| layout, but aren't thick enough (or modular enough) for
| enthusiasts to roll their own.
|
| Take a look at the Thinkeys [0] and pineapple60 [1] projects
| for what's possible.
|
| [0]: https://github.com/dennisleexyz/thinkeys [1]:
| https://github.com/saoto28/pineapple60
| CarVac wrote:
| Wow, that Pineapple is amazing.
|
| I gotta do that with a Mitosis layout for myself.
| technojunkie wrote:
| The arrow keys gap as an option would be awesome, I hope you
| reconsider
| GordonS wrote:
| Not sure if we're looking at the same photos and specs, but it
| looks and seems thin and light to me - 16mm thick, and 1.3kg
| according to the specs. I'm aware you can get _slightly_
| thinner, but not much lighter. IMO, anything thinner that this
| is making horrible sacrifices elsewhere, for little more than
| diminishing aesthetic returns.
|
| Let's not forget that this is repairable, upgradable and
| expandable - when I first saw the HN title, I was convinced it
| was going to be a brick. It actually looks great, like a
| premium laptop from Dell or Lenovo. But supporting up to 64GB
| or memory, and repairable etc. Pretty amazing, I think.
| foobarian wrote:
| > - that laptop looks pretty thick and heavy by today's
| standards.
|
| I am not a fan of today's standards. As I write (on an external
| A1243 keyboard) I look at the closed touchbar MBP in front of
| me and cringe at the gap between the cover and the body go from
| zero on the left to 1/4" on the right. This laptop is too thin
| for its own good, for no good reason, and I look forward to how
| sturdy this design would be with the extra thickness (not to
| mention all the other goodies they list).
| mattowen_uk wrote:
| For me, the huge trackpad in the middle front is the problem.
| Centred trackpads, weren't a problem when they were about 1/2
| the size, but they've steadily been getting bigger and bigger.
| Now almost all laptop trackpads are at a size where the base my
| thumb and the edge of my wrist brush against them, causing
| endless false touches. If I'm typing for any length of time on
| a laptop, I now _always_ disable the touchpad and plug in a
| mouse. Give me a laptop with an offset smaller trackpad please.
| I suppose people who only use a laptop, learn to type with
| floating hands with claw-like fingers, but I use a desktop most
| of the time, so my resting-wrists-on-the-desk style of typing
| doesn 't work.
|
| I can't be the only person with this problem?
|
| Edit: While I'm ranting, I am 100% sure that the touch-logic in
| trackpads favour right handed people (same with mobile phone
| screens) and as a leftie it seems harder for me to perform
| complex multi-touch actions than it does for right handed
| people.
| OldHand2018 wrote:
| I hate Windows laptop trackpads because they seem to
| interpret _everything_ as a click. Fortunately you can turn
| that off in Control Panel. Apple 's default trackpad settings
| are good.
|
| EDIT - my new problem with Windows 10 is that it somehow
| interprets certain accidental motions on the trackpad as me
| wanting it to move to some sort of strange workspace overview
| screen that appears to be completely useless and not at all
| what I wanted.
| tomtheelder wrote:
| I think it's really case by case. My previous Dell laptop
| was a nightmare, but I have a Razer Blade now and the
| trackpad experience has been flawless, totally on par with
| my work issued Macbook.
| jnwatson wrote:
| I'm with you. I just got a new Precision and the track pad is
| 6 inches by 3.5 inches (no exaggeration). I think the idea
| was to accomodate left and right handers, but it has gone way
| overkill. It is large enough to be a Wacom-style drawing
| tablet.
| burlesona wrote:
| The MacBook trackpad somehow knows when you're not touching
| intentionally... so I agree with you in theory but on that
| laptop specifically the palm rejection is good enough that it
| doesn't matter.
| freakynit wrote:
| Just add a GPU please. A whole community of people buy windows
| laptops just so that they can game on it. For work, Mac's are
| still best choice.
|
| But hats off to the initiative. Wee needed this.
| jpetso wrote:
| A laptop in this form factor won't be great for gaming even if
| you put a dedicated GPU inside, there's not enough room for
| cooling and especially not when replaceable components take up
| more space. For half-decent laptop gaming, you either want a
| giant beast or an eGPU (generally via Thunderbolt).
| numair wrote:
| The website says that it's by members of the founding team from
| Oculus. You know what else is from the founders of Oculus? A
| company making AI-directed killer drones and other toys being
| pitched as essentials for World War III.
|
| In 2021, the ethics of your products are as important as the
| products themselves. And yes, there's a ton of hypocrisy if we
| compare to $BIG_CO, but that's one of the tough parts of being
| young and new in an era where the young new guys have gone from 0
| to 100 and gotten old and evil real quick.
|
| Sorry to be so harsh, but Oculus connection that wins you VC
| dollars will get in the way of a lot of other things in
| unexpected ways if you want to tap consumer / prosumer. If you go
| after the defense market, however, you're golden! Not kidding.
| Call me crazy, though, but I'd rather have my dollars end up as
| far from war lobbying as possible.
| dorfsmay wrote:
| Add:
|
| * An option for a good quality trackpoint and 3 buttons
|
| * A possibility to order a fully assembled model without an OS
|
| And you will quickly get a significant share of buyers from the
| ThinkPad/Linux crowd.
| alrs wrote:
| The patents on Trackpoint must have expired by now. I need 3
| physical buttons, at minimum.
| cafxx wrote:
| Since we have the designers lurking in the thread, I may venture
| to ask something I have been wondering for a while: would it be
| possible to use the lid (back of the screen) as an additional
| radiating surface to improve thermal dissipation of the internal
| components (CPU, GPU, ...)? Or is it an intractable mechanical
| problem?
| whoomp12342 wrote:
| what happens when you want a new CPU of a new socket type? what
| happens when you want 8k screens?
| throwawayX1 wrote:
| The only thing I don't love about this is that it's Intel and not
| Ryzen 5000.
|
| But if the promises hold true, this will definitely be my next
| laptop.
| akhilcacharya wrote:
| Looks promising, but having AMD chips would be killer.
| imwillofficial wrote:
| Seconded! The value that AMD has been bringing to the table
| lately is shockingly good.
| cromka wrote:
| The fact that they answered a fairly ridiculous question (by
| HN-standards) wether swapping Intel for AMD on the same
| Motherboard is possible, but did npt address reasonable
| questions about their choosing of Intel over AMD, makes me
| suspicious of them being in bed with Intel somehow. It's just
| like with the AMD versions of Lenovo/HP/Dell premium laptops,
| which are always somehow inexplicably crippled (low-res
| display? why?!) compared to the Intel configurations.
|
| When people ask why there's so many rooting against Intel, I
| don't say it's because they stagnated the market. It's
| specifically because long-known practices like these.
|
| But hopefully it's not the case here.
| subaquamille wrote:
| Fairphone is doing interchangeability for... phones
| https://www.fairphone.com/en/ Although the feature/price is a bit
| below average brands, they are greatly priced if you take into
| account the sustainability. I Hope more brands will go this way
| so concurrence could help get better products and reduce
| electronic trash.
| diurnalist wrote:
| I was excited to take the leap and try the FP2, and ended up
| really disappointed by it. The quality of both hardware and
| software was just pretty bad. The casing would warp and pop off
| over time; I had to order 2 replacements in the 2 years I had
| it. Separately, at the time (maybe still the case), they didn't
| ship parts at all to the USA, so when I moved there, I was
| unable to get replacement parts. My microphone module got so
| flaky that it would periodically lose a good connection to the
| bus and the person on the other end wouldn't hear anything I
| was saying, which took a while to figure out. The connectivity
| was also awful, maybe also a USA thing. I couldn't get
| reception at either my work place or several apartments I
| rented. It was incredibly frustrating because I really wanted
| it to work. That they phased out FP1 parts after 4 years
| confirmed to me that it just wasn't worth it. I keep my phones
| for that long anyways, it may as well at least be built well.
| Oh, there were also compatibility problems with Android apps
| because FP OS development often lagged pretty behind, but
| that's a different story.
| tweetle_beetle wrote:
| A bit like the comments about incongruous items in the recent
| Apple lab video, I find the presence of a Pocket Operator on the
| video demonstrating ease of assembly rather amusing.
|
| They already ticked the expensive camera box, but for proper
| hipster bingo success, you would also need: some kind of branded
| grid paper notebook, a metal mechanical draughting pencil, a
| teapot with loose leaf tea, audiophile headphones and a 40%
| mechanical keyboard.
| nrp wrote:
| You joke, but my Grado headphones and Swanson Speed Square were
| only not in the video because the shipment didn't arrive at the
| shoot in time.
| tweetle_beetle wrote:
| Appreciate the honesty, that gave me a chuckle. For what it's
| worth, I was only teasing about the marketing - I signed up
| to the newsletter and would like to see the product suceed.
| necrotic_comp wrote:
| I wish new laptops would follow the form factor of the old
| Thinkpads instead of Macbooks. I realize that most people like
| trackpads and can't stand the trackpoint, but as someone who has
| used one for so long it would be fantastic if something like this
| existed.
|
| That being said, this is a great project and it looks like it
| should be successful - having a laptop that is built to last with
| interchangable parts is a great idea and should've been done long
| ago.
| jpetso wrote:
| Yep. With swappable keyboards, I really hope that they consider
| an alternative option with trackpoint, trackpoint mouse buttons
| and full-size arrow keys, perhaps even adjacent PgUp/PgDown
| keys a la ThinkPad.
| Shared404 wrote:
| You have my attention. Will there be support for other processor
| architecture's at some point?
|
| Assuming this isn't vaporware, and is near as good as it sounds,
| this checks all the boxes I'd like for a laptop, esp. if it gets
| ARM and/or RISC support.
| _448 wrote:
| After looking at this, I thought of another approach to achieve
| somewhat similar goal. Anyone interested in exploring the idea? I
| am a software engineer. So a hardware engineer and an industrial
| designer would be helpful to punch hole into my idea. Let us
| connect and explore some possibilities. My email is in my
| profile.
| unicornporn wrote:
| Will it be available in the EU or US only? Buying from the US not
| an alternative considering toll fees, VAT etc.
| sevsco wrote:
| They should send a model to Louis Rossman. He's a MacBook repair
| guy who's big on Right to Repair, and has a sizable audience on
| YouTube.
| throwaway69123 wrote:
| These things never work because consumers care more about brands
| than rights
| whywhywhywhy wrote:
| The job of their marketing team is to convince them to care
| SilverRed wrote:
| Also these things tend to work worse than the branded stuff,
| fail faster, and then the project vanishes after a few years so
| you never get to upgrade it anyway.
| mpd wrote:
| 13 inches simply isn't enough for what I need. I'd consider this
| today if I could get a 15 inch screen.
| maxrev17 wrote:
| I hate to be negative, but the market has decided it wants un-
| repairable and un-upgradeable devices.
| Udo wrote:
| Judging by how much interest this has garnered on HN, there
| does seem to be a market. I think people would at least like
| the option.
|
| Every time I buy a laptop, it's a matter of tradeoffs. Some of
| these tradeoffs are technical (like battery life vs power), but
| some are purely based on what level of planned obsolescence the
| manufacturer thinks they can get away with.
|
| I'm not sure if there was ever a time when manufacturers
| competed solely on putting features into their hardware, but
| the situation right now is at least as much about how many
| antifeatures they can get away with. The "free market" stops
| working when every manufacturer does this and the barrier for
| new offerings is impossibly high.
| [deleted]
| kinghtown wrote:
| I dig the concept, just hope the utilization pans out.
|
| I'm holding out for an arm based Linux laptop which can handle
| Blender without too much fan noise... I would love to get a
| system76 laptop but I have doubts about the build quality. But
| they say that they are on tract to manufacture their own laptops
| this year. How does a framework laptop compare to System76? (Let
| alone a Lenovo or Asus.)
|
| Any chance you guys could make your own distro in the future and
| brand it Lapdance?
| baybal2 wrote:
| I have few tricks in my sleeve, but my laptop project stalled
| with quarantine, and appearance of other things to spend money
| on.
| kodah wrote:
| As someone who swaps laptops out a lot, I'm down to get one. I'm
| also the same kind of person that buys an X1 Extreme for it's
| ability to be repaired. I'm also curious about price, but I'm
| assuming that hasn't been decided.
|
| That said:
|
| > Founded in San Francisco in 2019
|
| I'd love to see these kind of companies founded outside of this
| area in the future.
| whoisburbansky wrote:
| Sorry, why does it matter where they're founded?
| bombcar wrote:
| I can understand the strong benefits for startups starting in
| the Bay Area; I would like to see more of them migrate OUT at
| an appropriate time (which would be slightly before FAANG
| valuation in my mind).
|
| Remote work may solve some of this, but eventually the extended
| runways available at "lower altitudes" (to bend the metaphor)
| will become worthwhile.
| eyelidlessness wrote:
| @dang
|
| > Threads are paginated for performance reasons (yes we're
| working on it)
|
| I have a very meta interest in the tech/design/implementation
| behind HN. I've built a dark mode theme for the site because you
| asked the community to fill that gap. I'm wondering if whatever
| work goes into this perf improvement might be something y'all
| could talk about when it's ready? I'd love to know more about
| what's behind the incredibly 1999 frontend, and how it keeps up
| with the huge volume it gets.
| awill wrote:
| This all sounds great, but I suspect this will be VERY expensive.
| fossuser wrote:
| Neat - I wonder how it'll turn out.
|
| It's weird how little there is in the laptop space that's
| actually good.
|
| Macs, Thinkpads, maybe Dell XPS?
|
| Everything else sucks. It'd be cool to have another high quality
| option.
| jtl999 wrote:
| I've heard good things about Clevo based designs in the past
| but even those seem to be questionable now.
| tomtheelder wrote:
| The Razer laptops are IMO the best Windows option available.
| Not as good as the other options if you're running Linux,
| though.
| folkrav wrote:
| Thinkpads are far from being uniformly good, some models flat
| out suck. Macs aren't immune to lemons either - see all the
| issues with their keyboards after 2016, or the failing GPUs in
| some MBPs. Some XPSes are good, but many models had horrible
| coil whine as well.
|
| The LG gram was fine, if light and portable was what you're
| looking for. The HP Envy line has been pretty decent recently.
| Back in school I've had an Asus Zenbook I've quite liked as
| well. I've heard good things about some System76 systems too,
| and they're basically Clevo rebrands.
|
| There definitely is good stuff on the laptop market.
| fossuser wrote:
| Yeah I'm with you that even in the categories I mentioned
| there are problems.
|
| System76 comes up a lot, but to be blunt they seem awful.
|
| Bad resolution displays, generally terrible build, bezels,
| etc.
|
| I think there's a market for a really good non Mac laptop
| with Mac quality hardware design.
| folkrav wrote:
| My point was, those high end machines that compete with mac
| laptops already exist. XPS, HP Spectre, Surface laptop,
| higher end ThinkPads and ZenBooks, Razer Blade Stealth and
| Pro...
|
| As for S76 systems, you can't really compare a $2000+
| Macbook with a $1000 System76/Clevo ODM with the same
| criteria. They're just perfectly fine machines for what
| they cost.
| fossuser wrote:
| > "They're just perfectly fine machines for what they
| cost."
|
| Sure, but I don't care about the 'crap' segment of
| laptops. I want more options at the Macbook price point.
| People often talk about System76 as if they are Mac
| competitors too, so I don't entirely buy your point.
|
| > "High end machines that compete with mac laptops
| already exist"
|
| And they mostly suck. There isn't a good option that's a
| clear stand out Macbook competitor. There is no
| Windows/Linux hardware that's easy to point at and say
| this is clearly the one to get. All the competitors are a
| mixture of bad tradeoffs. Why?
|
| I would think Microsoft would want to make a Surface
| laptop that's competitive in this space (that targets
| developers), but they haven't really.
| folkrav wrote:
| > And they mostly suck.
|
| Agree to disagree - I pointed you towards 5-6 of them
| that globally don't suck. Macs also have tradeoffs of
| their own that you seem to have no trouble dismissing.
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| I recently strongly considered a System76 Lemur but
| ultimately opted for a Thinkpad X1 Nano instead due to
| reports of QC issues with Clevo (and thus System76) laptops.
| It's too bad because I think they get a lot right with
| bringing Linux to the general consumer market, and Pop!_OS
| gets a few things right that plain Ubuntu gets wrong.
| xur17 wrote:
| I have gone down a similar path twice now, and also landed
| on the Thinkpad X1, due to a mix of QC concerns, low screen
| resolution, and bulky looking laptop. My main concern about
| Framework is QC, and making a sleek laptop (something that
| I would guess would be difficult to get right directly out
| of the gate).
| GordonS wrote:
| How do you rate the X1?
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| I haven't had it long enough yet to say anything
| conclusive, but initial impressions are good.
|
| Compared to a MacBook, build feels solid if not quite as
| rigid but that's expected with how light it is. Doesn't
| feel flimsy. Keyboard roughly on par with that of a 2015
| MBP, but with a bit more travel. Doing lightweight tasks
| it doesn't get hot on my lap or spin up its fan.
|
| So far have only used the included Windows 10 Pro
| license. Not sure how Linux fares on it but from what
| I've read you'll need a distro with a newer kernel.
| rStar wrote:
| sign. me. up. especially if they go core boot or similar.
| sriku wrote:
| The spec says "Intel Xe Graphics". Any more details on this GPU?
| Is it this one -
| https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/211013/... ?
| jpetso wrote:
| They say Intel 11th Gen CPUs, so the particular one will likely
| be the one that ships with your pick of Tiger Lake SKU. The Xe
| MAX card is useful for particular niche cases, such as encoding
| videos with good power efficiency, but because it's no more
| powerful than the top-range built-in Tiger Lake iGPU, there
| would be little point in putting it in most laptops.
| wiz21c wrote:
| FTA :
|
| > Most consumer electronics devices are disposable one-offs by
| design. The single best way to reduce the environmental impact of
| electronics is to make them last longer.
|
| Yes. And I really don't see why a framework PC can help with
| that. If you want to make them last longer, then make hard drive
| that last longer, motherboards that last longer, etc. Also, make
| sure the user needs stay the same for longer (for example, as a
| Linux user, my needs have been fullfilled by my PC for about 12
| years now, I just added a bit more RAM (4 gigs) and a new low
| cost gfx card; notice that upgrading my Debian never resulted in
| more hardware needs)
|
| > In addition to enabling longevity, we're focused on improving
| sustainability across the life of our products.
|
| Just don't produce them. It'd be more helpful if those brains
| would help big companies to do things better. No, instead, they
| think they're smarter, and that being smarter, somehow, translate
| into money making.
|
| > The Framework Laptop is made of 50% post consumer recycled
| (PCR) aluminum and an average of 30% PCR plastic.
|
| Count how many grams that is. Compare that to a car, which you
| change about as often as a mobile phone or laptop.
|
| > Our packaging is fully recyclable with no single-use plastics,
|
| And who's going to take care of those plastic. Me ? Just don't
| use plastic (and if you're so smart, then figure out a way to not
| need plastic in packaging)
|
| > and all of our product shipments are carbon offset.
|
| Yeah, and what about the other part of the iceberg, ie, the
| carbon produced while producing your laptops ?
|
| I'm all for ecology, reuse, etc. But at some point, if you're
| smart, you must realize that all of that is pixie powder.
|
| As I said, I'd much prefer :
|
| - if hardware producer would guarantee a 20 years+ longevity -
| would reduce the number of form factors (so we can have less
| production lines) - would optimize for energy consumption (hey,
| my washing machine comes with a nice card explaining how much
| energy/water it consumes) - would create less market segments. We
| don't need a new CPU model every year. Look, my kid changes its
| game console (not exactly ecological either) every 5 years, so
| it's perfectly doable. - OS producer would make sure OS upgrade
| doesn't require hardware upgrade
|
| All of that is way more political than technological.
| lovelyviking wrote:
| This is the machine I was dreaming to have!
| markyc wrote:
| the only thing I'd ask for is a no fan version
| kieranl wrote:
| We have no no fan/low fan support on our firmware backlog -
| basically reducing the SOC TDP to the point where the laptop
| becomes a passively cooled and does not require the fan. So you
| can have performance when you want it, and silence when you
| want.
| rathboma wrote:
| Wow this sounds like an almost perfect laptop for me
| TheSpiceIsLife wrote:
| Interesting tie but:
|
| _Approximately 75% of the aluminium ever produced is still in
| use today as it can be recycled endlessly without compromising
| any of its unique properties or qualities.
|
| Aluminium's life cycle provides significant benefits through
| recycling, saving 95% of the energy it would take to make new
| aluminium metal._
|
| https://aluminium.org.au/sustainability/recycling-sustainabi...
| ceocoder wrote:
| I've added my name to preorder list, happy to pay premium for a
| laptop with high build quality and hardware. Please don't screw
| up the keyboard. Please. And a fingerprint reader would be
| welcome addition if possible.
| nrp wrote:
| Keyboard feel was high on our list of priorities. We engaged
| one of the bigger keyboard suppliers and worked with them on a
| custom one with 1.5mm key travel.
|
| We've built a fingerprint reader into the power button using a
| just-released sensor that has been performing really well in
| our testing so far. We're seeing False Reject Rates lower than
| the typical fingerprint readers built into laptops while
| keeping the right False Accept Rate.
| mtm wrote:
| Any plans to support movable keycaps? I'd love to actually
| have the physical keys match my Colemak layout
| bscphil wrote:
| Agree, this would be awesome.
| ceocoder wrote:
| Awesome!
|
| Best of luck and please let me know if you want someone to
| dogfood things as an outsider. My email is my HN username
| ndiddy wrote:
| How is the trackpad? Does it support Windows Precision? What
| material is it made out of? How does it compare to an Apple
| trackpad?
| nrp wrote:
| It's a Windows Precision Touchpad with a matte glass
| surface, and it feels pretty good!
| skavi wrote:
| There doesn't seem to be much space left for a large
| battery. Do you have any estimates on capacity?
| robotnikman wrote:
| Now I'm curious if extra batteries will be possible to
| plug into the modules
| kieranl wrote:
| technically possible as all 4 ports support usb-c PD, but
| the modules are not big enough to support any reasonable
| capacity. It is a path to connect something like a slice
| battery that you could attach to the bottom however!
| GordonS wrote:
| I've never heard of a "slice battery", but I'm guessing
| you mean a thin, wedge-shaped battery than would sit
| underneath the laptop? If so, wouldn't rising heat from
| the battery be a problem?
| nrp wrote:
| We integrated a 55Wh battery, which is pretty typical for
| 13.5-14" notebooks.
| GordonS wrote:
| Will the internal layout (and thermal characteristics)
| allow for a larger battery, perhaps at the expense of
| ports/expansion slots?
| ndiddy wrote:
| Thanks for the info!
| de_nied wrote:
| How much overhead will there be from having USB-C connected
| "Expansion Cards"?
|
| Will there documentation or support for enabling people to create
| their own expansion cards (for ex. like S/PDIF)?
|
| Will there be any support for high-end processors, perhaps in the
| absence of a dGPU? Dell Latitudes 14" laptops have an Intel
| i7-10850H which has 6-cores/12-threads, 2.70 GHz base, 5.10 GHz
| boost clocks. In addition, will cooling be customizable? The
| Latitudes run pretty hot.
|
| Finally, is there a ball-park on the price range we can expect on
| pre-orders and say 1 year from release? $1,000? $2,000? Will it
| also be a high upfront-cost, but low replacement parts cost? Will
| they both be relatively high? Both low?
| mirchiseth wrote:
| Yes, this is so needed in the era of SoC notebooks. As much as
| Apple M1 is a leap forward we still need systems similar to
| frame.work notebook.
|
| A relatable story - I have an Acer notebook from 2013. I bought
| it from Microsoft store in Valley Fair mall in San Jose, CA. Over
| the years I have upgraded its hard disk to ssd, RAM and more
| recently wifi card to wifi 6 (learnt not to buy before opening
| the notebook. I bought an m2 card while in 2013 half mini pci
| cards were all the rage)
| rch wrote:
| That looks a lot like my first laptop, the Sharp Actius MM10. I'd
| get one of these on that basis alone.
|
| The Ars article says the body is aluminium, but if I recall
| correctly, the Actius was a mag alloy of some kind (which I'd
| prefer). Either way, I'm curious.
| nrp wrote:
| The body is 50% post consumer recycled aluminum. We did
| consider magnesium alloy, but availability of recycled
| material, infrastructure for recycling, and costs are all
| prohibitive compared to aluminum.
| rch wrote:
| Makes sense, I just have a sensitivity to aluminum so I'm
| always looking for a way to get away from the MBP without
| going to plastic.
| kvark wrote:
| Looks like a great machine! I wish it had Ryzen 5000 option
| instead of Intel.
| alfor wrote:
| It's funny that the design is basically a macbook clone. Apple is
| way ahead with the M1, they will get rid of cooling, get
| massively better battery life and better performance.
|
| But I am angry too at Apple for their high price and upgrade
| looked systems.
| jeromenerf wrote:
| Nice project, even though I only buy second hand thinkpad.
|
| I would be more interested in a more innovative approach
| regarding the keyboard than the ports. This was solved with usb3
| for me.
| gillesjacobs wrote:
| Great initiative, but the proprietary expansion cards are
| entirely counter-productive to maintainability.
|
| The expansion cards will only be available for as long as your
| company provides them. Using the most-commonly used, mass-
| manufactured standard interfaces for components would provide
| more long-term repairability and upgradeability.
|
| The trade-off would be in design resulting in more bulk and in
| the economics of your company, of course. It seems cynical to me
| to sell maintainability while starting a walled-garden ecosystem
| of proprietary hardware.
| kieranl wrote:
| We will open up the expansion card spec and share reference
| designs to enable partners and the community to build their
| own! I want it to be open as much as you do.
| ehnto wrote:
| Is there a catching/locking mechanism for the expansion
| module that holds it in place? It would be a shame if the
| whole module came out when trying to remove a particularly
| firm USB connector.
| opsy2 wrote:
| Yes (source: another comment that described it. lock &
| button to remove. hot swapping supported)
| colonwqbang wrote:
| Is it "just" an internal USB-C connection to the expansion
| card? Or is there something else going on that could be more
| difficult to work with?
| kieranl wrote:
| Nothing that goes outside the usb/displayport standards. We
| have to be compatible to support the passthrough card :).
| gillesjacobs wrote:
| Sounds like a good solution to me, I hope you succeed, I
| surely will keep an eye on the project!
|
| I assumed it wouldn't be an open design because the marketing
| didn't mention it. I would integrate this message in your
| marketing because it's worth convincing critical audiences.
| ryandrake wrote:
| This is a great first step. Ideally the expansion story
| converges on some kind of industry-wide standard, like PCMCIA
| was. Would be cool to have other peripheral manufacturers out
| there agreeing on the spec and committed to building
| expansion hardware!
| colonwqbang wrote:
| It looks like the expansion cards are just USB-C adapters that
| fit inside the case. If so, it should be pretty simple to make
| a compatible expansion card. Or just plug in any dongle you
| like, ignoring the form factor.
| gregmac wrote:
| In the worst case (they change the interface spec and no one
| else produces old modules, or the company folds entirely) it's
| not any less maintainable than any other laptop on the market
| today. I think most laptops still allow storage and battery
| upgrades/replacement; RAM is questionable (some being soldered
| on the motherboard); and anything else basically means
| replacing the whole device.
| ricardobayes wrote:
| I was just this hopeful of Project Ara as this one. Really hope
| it can make it. Hardware is hard and expansion cards make it a
| lot more harder. All the best to the team! Hats off.
| King-Aaron wrote:
| Looks nice from the images, but personally I'd like to see those
| port adaptors house a combination of multiple sockets, not just
| one per module. That's going to be a PITA to keep swapping them
| out.
|
| Also the thermal management doesn't look amazing, but I guess
| they aren't looking to have big GPUs in them etc.
|
| I really like the idea though, hopefully these guys do well from
| it!
| imwillofficial wrote:
| This looks so interesting. A modular laptop that looks great? I'm
| a Mac guy and this still has me hyped!
| 99_00 wrote:
| Worst case it fails as a product but succeeds in increasing
| knowledge to help move us away from throwaway electronics
| culture.
| freeone3000 wrote:
| The port design is intriguing. My concern is your main
| competition, at least from me, is against Lenovo. Their thinkpads
| don't offer the modularity of IO ports, but instead simply offer
| "one of everything", with user-replacable SSD, HDD, and RAM
| modules, which is enough for most users. Swappable screens might
| be enough of a selling point, but, I'm holding out for the actual
| final specs. It doesn't look like it can fit a dedicated video
| card, so it's no competition for the Legion line, but it might
| stand up to the Thinkpad line.
| GordonS wrote:
| Do any of the modern Thinkpads offer user-replaceable parts?
| Any time I see Thinkpads recommend on HN, it's for older, 2nd
| hand laptops.
|
| Also, do any of such Thinkpads approach the lightness, thinness
| and aesthetic of this laptop? Last time I looked at new
| Thinkpads, I seem to recall they were pretty chunky, with only
| the Ideapads being thin, light and nice to look at (it was a
| while ago, so I might have that wrong tho)
| freeone3000 wrote:
| The framework laptop is 16mm thick and 1.5kg. Those are the
| dimensions of a ThinkPad T480 and its successors. (As in, the
| framework laptop is not as thin or as light as you're
| assuming -- it's "standard" laptop size, not Ultrabook)
| GordonS wrote:
| According to the specs, this laptop is actually only 1.3kg
| and 15.8mm thick.
|
| As a couple of comparisons, the XPS 13 is 1.27kg and 14.8mm
| thick; the MBP 13 is 1.4kg and 1.56mm thick; the ThinkPad
| X1 Nano is 1.18kg and 13.87mm thick.
|
| Note you have to compromise with the X1 Nano, as it maxes
| out at only 16GB of RAM, and doesn't have great battery
| life.
|
| So this is lighter than an MBP, and basically the same
| thickness, all while being upgradable - you haven't
| convinced me that this isn't witchcraft ;)
| tgsovlerkhgsel wrote:
| Keyboard, SSD, one of two RAM sticks, WiFi card, and honestly
| basically everything else except one RAM and the CPU/GPU look
| replaceable on the T14 and P14s, with a publicly available
| manual to guide you: https://download.lenovo.com/pccbbs/mobil
| es_pdf/t14_gen1_p14s...
|
| Comes with 2x USB-C, 2x USB-A, HDMI, Ethernet, 3.5mm headset
| jack, MicroSD.
|
| That said, the Lenovo online shop is a customer service
| disaster. Don't buy there. Misadvertised the smart card
| reader as a SD/MMC/... card reader, defrauds customers by
| advertising a "best price" policy that they then refuse to
| honor, 3 months to shipping with repeated delays, they play
| stupid games with their pricing (e.g. they jack up the price
| during week days by about 30% to milk business customers),
| zero flexibility (e.g. if the shipment is delayed because
| they're missing the removable RAM, they can't change the
| order to ship you a unit without the RAM, your only option
| would be to cancel and go to the end of the queue).
|
| Also, poor hardware support for the GPU and possibly
| Bluetooth under Ubuntu 20.04 LTS.
| danhor wrote:
| I'm really happy with both of these aspects on my Thinkpad
| T14. It has user replacable ram (one slot), wifi, nvme drive
| as well as a remaining free m2 slot, used for WAN on models
| with that. Lenovo also tells you the partnumbers of
| replacements and I've been able to find many of them for sale
| around the internet. It's approx. the same weight and a tad
| thicker and I (personally) like the design. It also has a 16
| thread AMD cpu, which was pretty important to me.
| GordonS wrote:
| Just had a look - I don't think I would describe it as a
| pretty machine, more kind of "inoffensive" :) But it is
| 14", fairly light, and replaceable parts is nice. Looks
| like it maxes out at 16GB, which is a deal-breaker for me
| tho.
| danhor wrote:
| > more kind of "inoffensive"
|
| Fair, it's certainly not going for the eyecatcher look
|
| The 16 gb option refers only to the soldered ram, you can
| expand it with a 32gb stick to 48gb, I'm currently
| running it with 24gb (8 GB stick). I'd have liked two ram
| slots, but for my purposes even 16 GB is enough. (be
| aware, some online shops might do the update for you and
| sell one with two 8 gb sticks, but I'm not aware of
| Lenovo offering something like that)
| GordonS wrote:
| Ah, then I misunderstood, thanks for setting me straight!
| alkonaut wrote:
| I'd buy a well built machine even if it was 3x as thick and 3x as
| heavy as other laptops, with 1/3 the battery life. I just need a
| movable machine, not an actual "laptop". Many of us from home
| with our machines plugged to the wall 98% of the time, yet the
| thermal and power design is for a thin battery powered device. I
| want a 150W laptop with a 120mm fan.
| boltzmann_brain wrote:
| No mention of GPU
| VectorLock wrote:
| I'll be interested when I can click on "Buy" and it has a price.
| Otherwise, I would be very interested.
| ksec wrote:
| >Designed for the future of work with a 13.5" 3:2 screen
|
| Yes 3:2! Really wish Apple took this direction. But instead it
| was the PC industry moving towards it. For Desktop or Laptops
| that no longer has Gaming or Media consumption as their
| priorities, 3:2 is just much better for productivity.
| bscphil wrote:
| I must be the only person on HN who really likes 16:9. Actually
| I'd go further and do 2:1 if I could.
|
| The reason is that the vast majority of my work is done with
| two windows open, side by side. A wider aspect ratio gives you
| a much better picture of what's happening in both, especially
| if one of them is a web browser (so many sites assume a pretty
| large screen width these days). The fact that it works much
| better with media (e.g. watching or editing film footage) is
| just a bonus.
| rasengan0 wrote:
| It's 2021 and I can't believe we have to recycle perfectly good
| laptops because of swollen batteries or other replaceable
| components not easily serviceable. That was not the case for my
| 1983 Apple //e. And now Chromebooks EOL, sealed Macbooks, the
| next best Surface? Computers have become appliances for the
| landfill after data extraction from the platforms. I hope
| frame.work marketplace thrives, consumers need freedom from the
| tyranny of convenience. 50 million metric tonnes of e-waste and
| going
| https://www.ft.com/content/26e1aa74-2261-11ea-92da-f0c92e957...
| We need a different mindset.
| edpichler wrote:
| My dream is to have this one but running Mac OS. Or a Macbook
| having this upgradeable features, where I know it will not happen
| soon as it's against the planned obsolesce of the industry.
| lifeisstillgood wrote:
| This is a little off-topic, but it makes me proud that HN can
| have two major IPOs (one coinbase!) on the front page, but the
| top story is a damn-cool laptop we all want to tinker with.
|
| We have not been subsumed by The Man yet :-)
| nrp wrote:
| We were pleasantly surprised too! It's great to see the
| interest, and we can't want to get it out there.
| sho_hn wrote:
| I don't see any information on the licensing of the adapter card
| / inter-module interfaces.
|
| Can others build a Framework laptop without approval? Can others
| build cards without approval? Will it be a platform?
|
| Tell me how this isn't a Nespresso machine for silicon pods. :-)
|
| Edit: To be clear, even a "we have a generic base laptop and you
| can pick your I/O" concept is potentially a nice value prop, but
| it'd be good if the picture (and roadmap) was clear.
| Eric_WVGG wrote:
| They're just USB-C dongles that snap into the chassis.. You can
| see better shots here: https://frame.work
|
| This is an unpopular opinion, but I think this proves that
| Apple was right to dump legacy ports. This solution is sort of
| clever but it sacrifices a ton of internal space that could
| have been spent on a bigger battery. USB-C, and the correct
| cables, are all anyone needs.
|
| (the Nespresso analogy is ridiculous, a laptop doesn't exist to
| consume adapters. But I presume you were enjoying a little
| tongue-in-cheek with your coffee)
| lovelyviking wrote:
| >I think this proves that Apple was right to dump legacy
| ports.
|
| How it proves it? Those guys do not drop ports, they just
| make them modular.
|
| All the "saved space" in Apple laptops become amazingly
| wasted space in your bag with tons of adapters and wires.
|
| I still dream to meet the one who made such 'wise' decision
| to tell him what I think about it personally!
|
| >USB-C, and the correct cables, are all anyone needs.
|
| I am not sure you can know what anyone needs. For instance
| you do not know what I need.
|
| I wish you'll be around when I need to copy my files from the
| camera with idiotic dongle in the field when time is
| precious.
|
| I would love then to hear how sticking card directly into the
| slot without any headache is less comfortable than looking
| for some dongle in the bag while holding your camera
| equipment and then hanging dongle on it's wire because there
| is no table around to put your laptop on or put it somehow on
| your lap and try not to move to avoid it breaking during the
| transfer because then you'll have to start again transferring
| your important pictures. Then pray it will work because some
| times it will not when you need it most.
|
| Removing sd-card reader slot is example of the most idiotic
| design decision I can imagine. It is taking what works
| perfectly and destroying it for no reason at all. It is pure
| damage without any benefits taking size of it into account.
|
| It was done by people who never used laptop for transferring
| photos from the camera using sd-card.
|
| They never thought that while you transfer with the sd-card
| your other card is available to continue shooting in critical
| or unexpected situations. This is what makes the difference
| between making some shots and not! I would never understand
| this idiocy of removing sd-card slot to "save space".
|
| The whole point of laptop is to save YOU space and headache
| or space in your BAG! Not in the laptop itself by making it
| useless. Such a dumb decision to remove useful ports.
| Goodness.
| yonaguska wrote:
| > All the "saved space" in Apple laptops become amazingly
| wasted space in your bag with tons of adapters and wires.
|
| A good dock solves this- it's not mobile, but I find that
| I'm not really that productive when I'm travelling anyways.
|
| I only wish that docking solutions became standard
| offerings with the laptops that skimp on ports.
| lovelyviking wrote:
| >A good dock solves this
|
| It doesn't solve it. Look at my use-case
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26271855
|
| >it's not mobile, but I find that I'm not really that
| productive when I'm travelling anyways.
|
| Laptop is for real mobile usage. In a way you have no
| need for it according to your description.
| randomchars wrote:
| > All the "saved space" in Apple laptops become amazingly
| wasted space in your bag with tons of adapters and wires.
|
| Maybe that's the case for you, but that's far from
| universal. I have zero need for any adapters. At work, I
| can use usb-c to connect to my monitor, and if I need to
| present in a meeting room, I do it wirelessly.
|
| At home, I can use airplay to share my screen to my TV.
| saagarjha wrote:
| Your monitor which happens to have ports on it?
| randomchars wrote:
| It does, and well, they all sit empty and unused.
| tomtheelder wrote:
| I think the SD card example encapsulates the issue
| perfectly. I'm pretty sure that in 2021 that is an
| _extreme_ niche use case. I feel like only extremely
| serious photographers and perhaps a particular slice of
| musicians use them. It makes absolutely no sense for them
| to have that built into the laptop. 99% of people who own
| Macbooks or whatever don't own an SD card dongle because
| they don't need it. However, and extra USB-C port can be
| used for a multitude of things, including being an SD card
| reader if you have the dongle.
|
| It's completely logical.
|
| > The whole point of laptop is to save YOU space and
| headache or space in your BAG!
|
| It most certainly is not. The point of a laptop is to
| strike a balance between portability and usability.
| Requiring the extra like two cubic inches of space in your
| bag for a dongle is assuredly not a design concern.
| lmm wrote:
| If we actually got enough USB-C ports to make up for all
| the removed ports (like, 8 or so?) then I'd agree with
| you, and be willing to put up with the temporary pain of
| dongles for the sake of a glorious future where
| everything's USB-C. But we've ended up with the worst of
| both worlds: say I bring out my laptop for movie night
| and I want to plug in power, projector, surround sound, a
| DVD drive, and a mouse, that was easy 5-10 years ago and
| it's impossible now.
| c17r wrote:
| This is my complaint about the latest iPhones. I'm fine
| with the move from analog to digital but WHY just one
| port!?
| opan wrote:
| They make hubs/docks with many ports that only need one
| of your USB-C ports. There's also daisy-chaining to
| consider. I think you most likely could connect all those
| things.
| sib wrote:
| And most "extremely serious photographers" _today_ are
| probably using cameras for which SD cards are not the
| storage format (or at least the preferred format.)
| lovelyviking wrote:
| It Depends how you measure "extremely serious
| photographers". Starting from Nikon d610 you have descent
| quality on sd-card plus portability in the same time. I
| understand that you can't put all the ports in the world
| in the laptop and while CF Cards reader would also be
| useful for photography I think sd-card reader or even
| micro-sd-card reader gives a compromise for mobile
| solution that covers many needs. Lack of this sd-card
| reader gives additional headache and nothing more useful
| as I see it.
| Terretta wrote:
| Exactly. And since we might carry more than one model of
| camera with dissimilar memory cards, the Mac could need 3
| or 4 slots. That's why the good pro photo USB-C adapters
| have 3 or 4 slots.
|
| Further, those readers seem to be made /just/ fast enough
| to read ahead of the current speeds, so when new speeds
| come out, you need a faster reader. That works fine if
| you have a USB 3.1 or USB 3.2 adapter, but not so great
| if the reader is built into a laptop with an otherwise
| much longer life.
| dvdkon wrote:
| I use my notebook's SD card reader all the time. Cameras,
| ARM SBCs, 3D printers, random SD cards I find laying
| around... There's plenty of use cases for an SD card
| reader, I certainly use video out on my notebook much
| less.
| tait wrote:
| > random SD cards I find laying around
|
| Can we explore that a bit? Laying around your house? Or
| like on the ground at work?
|
| I seem to remember some corporate espionage that relied
| on people looking at random SD cards they found on the
| ground...
| dvdkon wrote:
| Mostly my and my friends' homes, but I do remember
| finding an SD card on the ground once... Do you think I'm
| being targeted by spies? :) It had someone's pictures on
| it, but no identifying information, so I had no way of
| returning it.
|
| Thankfully random SD cards should be much safer than
| random USB devices, but it's probably better to be
| careful.
| bigiain wrote:
| > It had someone's pictures on it, but no identifying
| information, so I had no way of returning it.
|
| You could hav put your laptop on a network with heaps of
| monitoring going on, and then mailed it back to
| NSA/GRU/MSS/Mossad as required based on the ip addresses
| your machine started connecting to...
|
| ;-)
| opan wrote:
| It's also the main storage on the Wii, DSi, 3DS, (maybe
| Wii U, but it also had USB storage. I guess the Wii did
| too.) and Switch. An SD card reader lets you back up your
| game saves or install homebrew.
|
| More recently there's the PinePhone as well. It's not
| just expandable storage, you can boot off the SD and have
| all your OS and files there.
|
| I would say I definitely use SD cards more than flash
| drives now.
| webmobdev wrote:
| > It makes absolutely no sense for them to have that
| built into the laptop. 99% of people who own Macbooks or
| whatever don't own an SD card dongle because they don't
| need it.
|
| That's the issue - you are speaking only from an Apple
| user perspective. Android (and other non-apple) phones
| allow us to extend our storage with sd cards, and they
| are mostly used to store and transfer photos and videos.
| bigiain wrote:
| > Android (and other non-apple) phones allow us to extend
| our storage with sd cards
|
| /me looks glumly at my Apple-ized Samsung Galaxy S6Edge,
| with no SD card or removable battery. (Both of which
| would make the S6/GearVR combo significantly more
| useful...)
| EvilPaticus wrote:
| Is that an Apple user perspective or just reality for the
| average user? I recently had an Android phone for a while
| and never thought to use an SD card because it had plenty
| of internal storage. I can say the same about my family
| and friends who use Android devices, I can't think of any
| who use SD cards at this point. Even in the past when I
| did use an SD card in my phone, I simply plugged my phone
| into the computer and wrote to the SD card that way, I
| don't recall ever removing the card.
| ogre_codes wrote:
| I generally think the whole dongle issue is over
| exaggerated, you can mostly just buy new cables (once)
| and be done with it. The SD reader is one of the big
| exceptions I think. If you always need a cable to do
| something, you can just replace the cable with a USB-C
| one and be done with it. Having an integrated reader is
| handy for a fair number of people and it's something
| where you don't otherwise _need_ an adaptor.
| Qwertious wrote:
| The new cables means your cables aren't backwards
| compatible though - one day you need to plug in a display
| port cable to someone's desktop/old laptop and you don't
| have the cable on you, because you replaced it to avoid
| dongles.
|
| Dongles are both cheaper and more flexible than replacing
| the cable, at the cost of having a slightly shittier
| experience.
| lovelyviking wrote:
| >I think the SD card example encapsulates the issue
| perfectly
|
| It does. Micro-sd-card reader fits even in raspberryPi
| Zero ... Neglectable "space saving" advantage vs huge
| usability disadvantage.
|
| > The point of a laptop is to strike a balance between
| portability and usability.
|
| I think MacbookPro should be about philosophy of
| amplifying creative person with power tools for
| creativity in a portable way. Not a dumb machine
| mimicking more and more some TV . While this it should
| also do easily it shouldn't do just this, I think.
|
| Look at my use-case:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=26271855
|
| From my perspective of extensive use of a laptop some
| people barely use laptops at all and thus perhaps they
| better be designing something else because for me it
| appears they have no idea what 'Pro' usage is. When you
| travel you never know what environment you'll have and
| therefor ports and connectivity make a difference
| between: Creative idea done/ not done.
|
| >Requiring the extra like two cubic inches of space in
| your bag for a dongle is assuredly not a design concern.
|
| It's not 2 cubic inches. It's huge adapter with all
| missing ports. Why Pro Laptop should consist of two parts
| is beyond me.
|
| Again look at my use-case. I have no place for dongles
| nor time for dealing with them.
|
| If those real 'Pro' requirements are not a design
| concerns then perhaps MacbookPro should not have 'Pro' in
| the title in my opinion.
| craftkiller wrote:
| This looks to satisfy all your requirements from your
| original post: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/151
| 4535-REG/sabrent_c...
|
| Its ~2 cubic inches and doesn't dangle on a cable so you
| don't need a table/lap.
|
| As for your more detailed post you just linked to:
|
| > Only for that purpose more ports are justified because
| I would prefer to have 4 at least to connect all 3 iOS
| devices plus hard_drive for backup etc. If there is
| additional monitor around that I could use I would love
| to use it which means I need HDMI/display port.
|
| USB4/thunderbolt 4 allows for type c hubs that also
| support alt-modes like displayport alt-mode so you can
| have a small cellphone-sized hub to significantly
| increase your ports: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08RYZJY8M
|
| > I would also need HDMI/DP/DVI or even VGA port to have
| external screen connected.
|
| Surely you're not suggesting that laptops built in 2021
| should have a VGA port? This is exactly what tomtheelder
| was referring to when he said:
|
| > I'm pretty sure that in 2021 that is an _extreme_ niche
| use case [...] 99% of people who own Macbooks or whatever
| don't own an SD card dongle because they don't need it.
| However, and extra USB-C port can be used for a multitude
| of things
|
| Just think of all the extra thickness Apple would be
| adding to their laptops just to fit a VGA port 99.9% of
| people would never use.
| lovelyviking wrote:
| >This looks to satisfy all your requirements from your
| original post:
|
| Thank you for the link. Unfortunately it only looks so.
|
| It satisfies only partly because it's still headache to
| remember where it is, remember to take it and when
| something like that sticks out of your machine
| probability to break it when there are people around is
| very high and not unusual. Also you can tilt accidentally
| your laptop and it cat potentially break the port
| completely.
|
| With all that said the reality now for instance that it
| is simply not available in the country I am right now
| unfortunately. I cannot move because of the covid
| situation and I am limited with what I can order. My
| MacbookPro has died gracefully (you can read how if you
| wish: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25809097) I
| have managed to get M1 machine but now I'll have to deal
| with adapters that are available around.
|
| Because I do not have sd-card-slot my photography is
| limited to zero currently until I find adapter that would
| work. I have additional headache to choose one that
| works, and they lie about the specs and you never know
| what you get so this is the reality of all those theories
| about _' oh you can get a dongle'_.
|
| I just wish to add that when you are really mobile and
| travel in different countries it is _Not_ unusual
| situation. Even if it 's developed country it's not easy
| to order something in a small town or even in a big town.
| Usually small towns do not have something you need, you
| can count on that. Probably you can buy a new Mac
| probably like I did but it's M1 with 2 ports and some
| _nice_ adapters will be not available there. Again this
| is the reality , not the theory where you can access
| everything you need whenever you need it.
|
| The second item you've mentioned is nice. Thank you
| again. It can be useful when I'll be able to reach it.
| Right now all my drives are usb3 to fit MacbookPro I had.
| This hub is also requires power supply brick as I
| understand and again it would be simply impossible to get
| the hub you've mentioned where I am at the moment.
|
| So in my case it will be huge adapter hanging on wire and
| let us pray it will work as expected.
|
| >Surely you're not suggesting that laptops built in 2021
| should have a VGA port?
|
| No, I am not suggesting that. HDMI an micro-sd-card
| reader do not add any thickness though and are still very
| useful for flexibility in real world. When I took my
| previous Mac I thought I will not use HDMI but mobile
| reality made it so that at some point it was the only way
| I can use it and extract data from it and the external
| port allowed me to boot gnu/linux. The M1 Mac on the
| other hand become not bootable in the first day because
| of the bug in DiskUtility and I needed _' another Mac'_
| to make it even bootable again so from my perspective I
| did not upgrade I have downgraded.
|
| >_extreme_ niche use case [...] 99% of people For me it's
| not about how many people use something it's about what a
| portable computer allows you to do and how flexible ,
| productive and creative you can be with that tool. I do
| not want to go further about what else 99% do not do ...
| following majority was never too exciting for me.
| sgustard wrote:
| > All the "saved space" in Apple laptops become amazingly
| wasted space in your bag with tons of adapters and wires
|
| It's a reasonable tradeoff. Imagine your laptop with the
| power supply built in instead of as an external brick.
| recursive wrote:
| You mean I could charge with any cable? How do I get it?
| sjs382 wrote:
| For my M1, I thought I was in a pinch when I forgot my
| charger at work. I was fine, though--I just plugged in my
| 18W USB-C phone charger and used it while WFH.
| imwillofficial wrote:
| I hope iphones swap to USB-C soon for exactly this
| reason.
| lovelyviking wrote:
| >It's a reasonable tradeoff.
|
| Saving 0.1% of space for micro-sd-card reader and having
| headache of dongle for every photo/video transfer?
| Doesn't appear reasonable at all. They have found space
| for micro-sd-card reader on raspberryPi Zero ... It's
| absurd not to have it even on the phone.
|
| Look at my use-case
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26271855
|
| > Imagine your laptop with the power supply built in
| instead of as an external brick.
|
| You know what? Great! One thing less to care separately .
| It would be bad thermal solution though.
|
| By the way the brick itself was coming with extension
| cord. Now it comes without it. Imagine during your travel
| squeezing it in some public place with bad socket to
| charge it when it doesn't fit well enough and could even
| fall and break and your life depend on your ability to
| charge it. Do it few times during few travels, then you
| will understand how "reasonable" was to even to remove
| the extended power cord from the brick.
|
| Many things appear 'reasonable' on the paper until you
| use them in real life.
| ogre_codes wrote:
| I must be doing something different from you. I have one
| adaptor on my desktop which lets me get display/ power/ USB
| A. It's nice because it means removing the laptop means
| unplugging one thing.
|
| I don't take any dongles with me. Or any adaptors. My
| laptop case is just a protective sleeve and sometimes I
| bring the power brick.
|
| It would be nice to have one USB-A port, and HDMI, but it's
| not that big of a deal either.
| lovelyviking wrote:
| >I must be doing something different from you.
|
| You do. From my perspective you are barely use laptop as
| laptop for any serious work on the go.
|
| Look at my use-case
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26271855
| sleepybrett wrote:
| I'm down to exactly one adapter in my bag. One usb-c male
| to usb-a female stubby little guy.
|
| If I'm heading to someplace where I think I might need more
| than 1 usb-a port or a situation where I might need a bit
| of a usb hub I just pack this little 'dock dongle' that's
| about three inches long and an inch wide that has three
| usb-a ports (2x3.0 1x2.0), an hdmi port, a sd and tf card
| slot, an ethernet port, an audio jack, and a usb-c power
| input port... cost me all of 60$.
| lovelyviking wrote:
| What you describe is exactly the headache I was
| mentioning and dreaming to avoid. I do not need part of
| the laptop separated from the laptop to have additional
| task to think when to take them together and when not to
| take them together.
|
| I do not want to search for this 'little guy' in the dark
| and be stuck without it when I forgot to take it because
| a lot of other things happening in the same time around
| or I lost it or somebody took it because he thought it
| belongs to him by mistake.
|
| Having the dongle headache or not in certain situations
| means missing shots or not. And I speak from experience
| of shooting intensively in addition to doing other things
| during 5-7 days in a arrow where you do not always have
| time to eat/sleep and surely no time to waste for this
| dongle BS.
| treve wrote:
| The issue with this thread is that it seems like an
| argument, but different people just have different
| sensibilities.
|
| Get the machine that suits _you_. Unless you want to run
| Apple OS because then you're not given choice.
| funcDropShadow wrote:
| > Get the machine that suits _you_. Unless you want to
| run Apple OS because then you're not given choice.
|
| And that is exactly the point. I used to be a very happy
| customer of multiple Macbook Pros over almost a decade.
| Currently, I am still using my 2015 Macbook Pro 15" with
| maxed out specs when not in my home office. But all the
| later models went downhill for my needs. The new Macbook
| Air M1 is the first model that I am thinking about
| buying. It is probably powerful enough to work on it, and
| I think I actually get some value back from the saved
| spaced due to dropped ports. Even the 2015" Macbook Pros
| with 15" are at a thickness were I simply see no point to
| remove even half a milli-meter of thickness. I would
| gladly use a thicker, heavier variant if it had multiple
| different ports including Ethernet. One problem that I
| had over the time with all Thunderbolt dongles was that
| the physical connection became unreliable over time. That
| is hassle I don't want to deal with.
| tait wrote:
| They are supposedly bringing back more ports...
|
| https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.macrumors.com/guide/14-i
| nch...
| lovelyviking wrote:
| For me it's not about what suits who. For me it's about
| what philosophy you put into design of a portable
| computer as a tool and what it can allow/encourage you to
| achieve/create.
| jonnycomputer wrote:
| All of this thread comes down to those who want their
| laptops to be Swiss Army knifes ready for any situation,
| and those who don't.
| sjs382 wrote:
| I'm down to one, too. And for what it's worth, I've used
| it about 5 times since I got my M1 in December:
| https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B085ZQZXFX
|
| If "using it on your lap, without something hanging"
| matters to you (like the parent) and you wanted something
| more 'rigid', things like this exist:
| https://smile.amazon.com/dp/product/B07PCP5J4Z
| CoolGuySteve wrote:
| Yeah I'm in complete agreement. A single "dock" dongle
| with all the ports you could possibly want are cheap,
| light, and have smooth designs that won't snag on
| anything.
|
| I have one buried in my bag that I almost never use. It's
| surprisingly rare that I need an Ethernet or HDMI port
| but they're there if I need them. In the meantime,
| there's more room inside my laptop for battery.
|
| Even an extra 5Wh of capacity is about an extra hour of
| use.
| Eric_WVGG wrote:
| I'm not sure what you need "tons of adaptors and wires" for
| since you're only talking about SD cards, but to address
| that one example: what percentage of laptop users are
| professional photographers? One percent? A quarter? There
| are at least six fashion photographers in my apartment
| building and even I know they're a negligible slice of the
| population.
|
| Apple should not be designing their laptops around the
| needs of 1% of users. That's just dumb. They should be
| designing for most users, and they are.
|
| Which strategy makes more sense...
|
| 1. users who need SD card readers should carry around SD
| card readers
|
| 2. users who _don 't_ need SD card readers should carry
| around SD card readers
|
| I don't need an SD card reader! I'm glad Apple is using
| that space to make the laptop more portable with the most
| battery possible.
|
| The whole point of laptop is put as much power as possible
| into a device that is as portable as possible. The point of
| a bag is to carry around shit that YOU might need and the
| rest of us don't. Goodness.
| gowld wrote:
| Why would I buy a laptop based on what you need, instead
| of what I need?
| Eric_WVGG wrote:
| That's my point exactly, I don't want to buy the laptop
| you need either. Since Apple can't make models for all
| users, they design around the needs of most users. And
| practically nobody needs SD card readers.
| tstrimple wrote:
| How far do we take this? What percentage of Macbook users
| use the tilde key? How many users open the terminal? What
| percentage of users use multiple desktops?
|
| The reason Excel remains the dominant spreadsheet
| software is because it has dozens of features that other
| spreadsheet applications don't have. Each one of those
| features is only used by a small portion of the user base
| but if you add up the users which use at least one of
| these features it starts representing a significant chunk
| of users. Each of those feature independently isn't worth
| implementing in competing platforms because "Google
| sheets should not be designing their app around the needs
| of 1% of users", but the culmination of all of those
| features add up to a platform Google Sheets just cannot
| compete with.
| jki275 wrote:
| Nope.
|
| The reason that Excel remains the dominant spreadsheet
| software is that it's the best spreadsheet out there, and
| it's almost universally installed on all school and
| business computers.
| zepto wrote:
| The difference is that software doesn't take up physical
| space or use physical resources.
|
| The answer about how far we should take it is, _as far as
| is reasonable_.
| tstrimple wrote:
| Is the space actually being used more effectively? What
| can fit in the laptop without a SD card slot that
| couldn't fit with one present? Why is a smooth side with
| no ports somehow more valuable than a side with usable
| ports? You can't think you'll see any savings passed
| along to use for Apple taking out a part that costs them
| a few dollars at most. Removing the feature won't save
| any consumers any money, only reduce usability overall.
| whynaut wrote:
| > What can fit in the laptop without a SD card slot that
| couldn't fit with one present?
|
| More battery.
| bigpeopleareold wrote:
| ... which will have to occupy an extremely thin case.
|
| I mean, extreme thinness is not really an important
| criteria for many, but everything seems to gets
| compromised to serve that goal.
| lovelyviking wrote:
| Before going any further you do realise that there is
| enough space for micro-sd-card reader even on raspberryPi
| Zero?
|
| And I hope you do realise that I am talking about sd-card
| reader just for the most obvious example, it doesn't mean
| I have nothing more to say or wish from laptop.
|
| I think this is not about what majority wishes when you
| develop a tool that you label as 'Pro', it's about what
| device can and cannot do and as such what Man can and
| can't do using it!
|
| >I'm not sure what you need "tons of adaptors and wires"
| for since you're only talking about SD cards...
|
| First of all it is a real mobile usage. And I mean
| serious usage 'on the go' (and it could be 3 month + of
| 'the go') My laptop is the only machine I have and could
| have in such scenario. And as far as I know this is
| exactly what laptop was meant to be - device for mobile
| work.
|
| My use-cases are:
|
| I do Software Development:
|
| - Developing software for iOS: Which means I need to have
| one of each kind for testing iPhone/iPad/iPadPro and
| connect each of them periodically. Only for that purpose
| more ports are justified because I would prefer to have 4
| at least to connect all 3 iOS devices plus hard_drive for
| backup etc. If there is additional monitor around that I
| could use I would love to use it which means I need
| HDMI/display port.
|
| - Developing software for MacOS. I am developing
| FileManager for Mac and few other projects on the go.
| Which means Xcode and resources it requires. Also
| external monitor port hdmi/dp - any I can find around
| depending where I am.
|
| - Developing software for GNU/Linux. which means
| sometimes a need for Ethernet port to track down issues.
|
| - Using Terminal for remote connections to raspberryPi/s
| which means wired connections when there is a need of
| speed or some problem. It also means I use sd-card-reader
| for this too.
|
| - Developing software for reMarkable tablet. which means
| VM GNU/Linux machine on Mac which requires
| more_storage/more_memory/more_processing_power and again
| free USB-A port to connect rM for speedy
| connection/charging.
|
| - Making some hardware projects on the go:
| Arduino/ESP32/8266/raspberyyPi etc. which means
| periodically connecting those and I must have cable
| connections when something breaks and wifi would not
| help. I also do not need additional dongle in the chain
| when tracking down some problems. It saves a lot of time
| to have less items to check as the check itself takes
| time * number of times you do it. Needless to say that
| those devices barely work with simplest USB 2.0
|
| I do Music:
|
| - I play Guitar. So I need to connect a Guitar for
| recording/performing, which means I need line-in .
|
| - I sing and if I wish to record it I also need external
| mic which means one more usb/line-in.
|
| - I play Piano: If it's real piano the same needs for mic
| if it's electronic piano - perhaps line-in, if it's midi
| - usb.
|
| You know at least one line-in would be great just in case
| I wish to connect something in creative situation for
| creative purposes.
|
| I do massive Photography/Videography:
|
| - Some times work as photographer/videographer. I have
| Nikon Camera with sd-cards and need periodically but
| intensively transfer of huge Video Footages.
|
| Wifi for such sizes is simply not an option. I also need
| ports to connect few drives at the same time.
|
| I need diff types of ports if I work with other people
| and usually they are not equipped. Again the difference
| sometimes: it's done or not due to some dumb limitations.
|
| - I do Argentinian Tango Teaching/Dancing/Performing.
|
| Which means I need remote control to stop/play music
| during the class. Where the IR port that worked fine?
|
| I need wired audio connection to whatever-audio-system-i-
| can-find and if my bluetooth speaker
| doesn't_work/not_enough for certain halls . I would also
| need HDMI/DP/DVI or even VGA port to have external screen
| connected.
|
| I never know what screen will be available at some place.
| Again the difference would be: It's doable/Its' not
| doable.
|
| - I also need to relax and watch movies some times and I
| also wish to do it with friends sometimes which means
| HTMI/DP/DVI/VGA whatever we can find.
|
| I do not know your use case but as you can imagine with
| all that activity the last thing I need is another dumb
| dongle to deal with.
|
| Since I travel with my guitar I have 'literally' no space
| in the bag for adapter and wires because most precious
| things I have to take with me on the plane and I have to
| pack them really tight if I wish to avoid boarding
| complications.
|
| I simply have no space in the bag nor space in my mind to
| deal with another stupid problem like dongle/adapter.
|
| There are projects that require all of theses use-cases
| simultaneously. And since I wish to do things with top
| quality possible I need all the equipment to work
| perfectly too because I relay on it and if it doesn't
| work it usually means something will not be done. I am
| sure any pro would confirm that. I simply cannot afford
| having some stupid dongle. Believe me. I need MacBookPro
| and it should be really 'Pro'!
|
| Again, I do not know your use-case but for me some people
| are just barely using laptop as laptop at all for
| goodness sake.
|
| And if we are talking about 'Pro' shouldn't we listen to
| people like me who is literally using all the features to
| the full extent.
|
| These are my use-cases and what are yours?
| webmobdev wrote:
| Who needs earphone jacks too right? /s
| lovelyviking wrote:
| Exactly. I do need it. I also need mic/line in jack for
| guitar/any_other_instrument where _any_ delay is not
| desirable
| sjs382 wrote:
| > How it proves it? Those guys do not drop ports, they just
| make them modular.
|
| In the case of the framework laptop, most of the "modules"
| just seem to be USBC/Thunderbolt-to-X dongles that fit
| flush with the case.
| nine_k wrote:
| This is very important.
|
| For those who use a laptop outside office desks, there is
| a lot of difference between flimsy setups with dongles
| hanging on wires, and the mechanically solid laptop case.
| Much easier to carry it around in one piece.
| sjs382 wrote:
| If you need something more 'rigid', things like this
| exist: https://smile.amazon.com/dp/product/B07PCP5J4Z
| baybal2 wrote:
| Luke Leighton tried to make something like this for a really
| long time.
| sho_hn wrote:
| > the Nespresso analogy is ridiculous
|
| Well, sort of :-) Nespresso is a famous implementation of a
| "your basic machine stays static, you swap out a different
| element of the system based on temporary/current needs, but
| you can only buy those elements from one vendor" pattern.
| Printer ink cartridges are another.
|
| Yeah, add-on cards to a computer aren't consumables per se -
| but the entire premise is that as time goes on you might want
| to get new ones (because your current needs change), i.e.
| upgrade. Whether I can pick upgrades from different vendors,
| and what the tax imposed on creating and/or selling upgrades
| is, matters.
| gregmac wrote:
| I don't understand this criticism. On every other laptop on
| the market today, if you want different ports you either
| buy dongles or buy a whole new laptop.
|
| Every laptop I've ever owned has at least one port I never
| use, and after a couple years it's missing some other port
| I'd rather have. This one seems to solve that problem,
| extending the life of the machine and/or avoiding dongle
| hell.
| sho_hn wrote:
| If the value prop is that it's nice to move the port
| adapter dongle into the chassis rather than having one
| dangle from a port, so it's an ergonomic improvement
| you're sold on, sure. I'm not saying that can't have a
| market.
|
| But if you can only buy the dongle from one vendor, it's
| going to be more expensive than if there's a market where
| multiple vendors compete. It's that "you can only buy the
| adapter from Apple, and it's really expensive" thing,
| just moved into the chassis.
|
| Hence the question which one of those we're looking at
| here, and it was kindly answered by a rep above.
| znpy wrote:
| > This solution is sort of clever but it sacrifices a ton of
| internal space
|
| this is true, yet... I'd be okay with that, to be honest.
|
| My current work laptop (a dell latitude 7390) is a jewel also
| because it's got a lot of ports. I have used them all at
| least once, but quite frankly, never all at the same time.
|
| So yeah, being able to unplug a port and plug a different one
| it's almost the perfect middle ground.
|
| we're pretty much all carrying dongles anyway (not me, the
| dell latitude 7390 has all the ports i might need)
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| Is it a useful form factor on other laptops? The market for
| RJ45 dongles is a lot larger than the market for framework,
| so if a vendor can hit both markets with the same product
| they'd be more likely to do so.
| XorNot wrote:
| Apple burns almost all of their space savings on making the
| machine thinner, to the point of absurdity.
|
| Apple is content to push everything into dongles (which you
| have to carry around anyway) to get it thinner. The point at
| which I can't have a wired RJ45 ethernet port is already
| ridiculous - that is not a thick connector. Same with
| fullsize USB ports.
|
| Battery life there are hard limits as well: nobody is making
| a laptop with more then 100Wh, because that's the limit that
| you can carry onto an aircraft.
| ppezaris wrote:
| I'm sorry who is using RJ45 ports on a laptop these days?
| Seems like that question was asked and answered years ago,
| and wifi has won.
| m4x wrote:
| I use it on a regular basis to connect to industrial
| networks. Wireless is not typically available in that
| situation and for good reason.
| NovaS1X wrote:
| Every single one of our laptops gets sent out with an
| accompanying Ethernet dongle. Every one.
|
| Still very much useful in corporate environments.
| webmobdev wrote:
| Come on, that's ridiculous - wired LAN is more secure and
| faster than Wifi - anywhere I go, I prefer wired to Wifi.
| funcDropShadow wrote:
| Hands up.
|
| My laptop is sitting at home 1,5 m away from my Unifi
| access point and the network cable is still measurably
| more reliable and performant. Wifi might have won the
| amateurs.
| t0astbread wrote:
| Apart from what everyone else was already saying I have
| another cool use case: When transferring large files
| between two devices it's neat to be able to establish a
| point-to-point Ethernet connection between them,
| configure static IP addresses and netcat the files over
| it. It's fast, I don't need to encrypt anything and I'm
| not hogging anyone's bandwidth.
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| Yo (hand up).
|
| I mean. Really. That strikes me as willfully ignorant and
| arrogant. Clearly it's heavily used, especially in
| professional/corporate environments.
|
| FWIW I use WiFi if I have to on the move.
|
| But at home and office it's hard wire all the way.
|
| In the office it's not even an option, everybody must.
|
| At home, it's a quality of life thing.
|
| The speed drops and disconnections and unpredictability
| of WiFi are not thing of the past yet. For some there's a
| security issue as well, real or perceived.
|
| Wire just works.
|
| Edit: other examples - gaming laptops; secure networks;
| dense environments either urban or corporate; anything
| that needs predictable connectivity, bandwidth and lag
| really :-/
| adrian_b wrote:
| Exactly the same applies to me.
|
| Both my own laptop and the laptop from my employer (a
| large company) are used almost all the time on wired
| Ethernet, the main exception being during business trips.
| imwillofficial wrote:
| "Clearly it's heavily used, especially in
| professional/corporate environments."
|
| It's so clear that they removed it from their lineup?
| Clearly you're wrong. I have two Macbooks work/home, and
| a USB-C dock has been life changing in its awesomeness.
|
| And yes my dock has RJ-45 ;)
| fomine3 wrote:
| Kensington lock is widely used by enterprise (pro) but
| Apple won't support it. The "Pro" is just marketing
| comparing to "Air".
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| Hmm I feel we're getting circular.
|
| There are discussions on:
|
| 1. Is a particular connector still used/useful on laptops
| - my statement is that RJ45 is absolutely still used on
| laptops, and went into some examples / use-cases.
|
| 2. Separate discussion, hopefully informed by the first,
| is how do we do that - built into laptop or via a bunch
| of dongles.
|
| Apple in particular removing it from their laptops does
| not speak one way or another to corporate/professional
| environment requirements. Their approach is "use a
| dongle/dock" which in their view is compatible with
| whatever use case is needed (and some people disagree,
| which is fine - lots of vendors and in particular
| HP/Dell/Thinkpad all have robust
| professional/corporate/roadwarrior models with dock, port
| and even pointing stick capability).
| ben-schaaf wrote:
| > It's so clear that they removed it from their lineup?
| Clearly you're wrong.
|
| They also removed scissor switches, sd card readers and
| hdmi. But they're bringing those back (or have already),
| so they don't seem like a good authority to appeal to
| here.
| imwillofficial wrote:
| Have they? Their newest laptops are USB-C only.
| jdxcode wrote:
| I would say I run into a situation where I dig my RJ45
| dongle out of my bag once per year still. Usually if I'm
| in a different office or trying to fix Wifi or something.
|
| For me the dongle is annoying but probably sufficient.
|
| I've also worked in offices where the Ethernet was better
| because it didn't require VPN access and was more
| reliable, but in those situations I plugged it into my
| monitor rather than directly into the laptop.
| msla wrote:
| > I'm sorry who is using RJ45 ports on a laptop these
| days?
|
| Everyone who understands collision domains.
|
| Everyone who understands bandwidth.
| imwillofficial wrote:
| I don't think you understand collision domains.
| msla wrote:
| I understand that a WiFi LAN is one.
| imwillofficial wrote:
| Every port on a switch is one.
| msla wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collision_domain
|
| > By connecting each device directly to a port on the
| switch, either each port on a switch becomes its own
| collision domain (in the case of half-duplex links), _or
| the possibility of collisions is eliminated entirely in
| the case of full-duplex links._ For Gigabit Ethernet and
| faster, no hubs or repeaters exist and all devices
| require full-duplex links.
| auxym wrote:
| I've worked in many companies (both software and non-
| software) where ethernet was the only way to access the
| corporate network.
|
| One had WiFi that only gave internet access, the other
| had no WiFi at all (in 2017).
| km3r wrote:
| I use mine nowadays, because my room is just far enough
| from the access point for occasion zoom drops. The
| 'better' solution would have probably been to put an
| access point right in my room, but I already have an RJ45
| dongle + ethernet cord and I trust a cable connection to
| have less drops than wifi.
| anonu wrote:
| Depends on who your audience is. HN crowd: give them an
| RJ45.
| liotier wrote:
| Welcome to dense urban environments, where the list of
| available wi-fi networks is well above fifty and the
| throughput well under 100 Mb/s on a good day... When I
| sit at my desk, I plug the RJ-45 and I get 1 Gb/s - no
| ifs, no buts !
| robotnikman wrote:
| At work when at my desk. If every device in the office
| were on Wifi, things would be a mess
| imwillofficial wrote:
| USB-C Dock solved this problem for me.
| bee_rider wrote:
| People seem fine with it.
|
| If you are bringing your laptop to a coffee shop, you
| probably won't need an ethernet port anyway, so you can
| leave the dongle at home. Lots of mobile use-cases don't
| involve plugging in to a ton of things, so why waste space
| having ports for it?
|
| We're mostly programmers here, with nice keyboards and big
| screens as a necessity for work. On the other hand, lots of
| people are completely content with the base laptop. Making
| things easier for us at their expense is probably not a
| great business decision.
| funcDropShadow wrote:
| But lots of other mobile use case do involve plugging in
| to a ton of things. I would like to have the option to
| get the ports builtin. I am not arguing they should stop
| making those crippled variants without ports.
|
| Luckily, macOS is going downhill as well, therefore my
| pain will end when the next version has not resemblance
| to a Unix system any more. The day Apple starts migrating
| its desktop OS to hamburger menus, I'll wipe and sell all
| my remaining Apple hardware.
| bee_rider wrote:
| They could make different models and operating systems
| for every niche I guess, but people who need lots of
| ports and a UNIX-like experience on a laptop are pretty
| far out in the tail of the distribution I think.
|
| I dunno. I've never owned a macbook because Linux has
| been good enough for most of the time I've seriously been
| using computers for work stuff. Even if you aren't a
| Linux enthusiast, the time to switch for developers was
| more than a decade ago, IMO.
| Razengan wrote:
| > _a wired RJ45 ethernet port is not a thick connector._
|
| ...............
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| There are ultra-slim foldable RJ-45 connectors[1], which
| manufacturers could use if they could be bothered but
| they don't, because they would rather save the BOM cost
| of it and advertise the WiFi capabilities instead.
|
| Only Fujitsu use them AFAIK.
|
| [1]https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2017/12/8/1675
| 0574/p...
| xyzzy_plugh wrote:
| I've seen them on some ASUS laptops as well.
| bombcar wrote:
| I don't see how that DOESN'T get broken on the second
| use, honestly.
| jdxcode wrote:
| One careless snag of the cable would have to rip the
| aluminum apart I would think
| freeone3000 wrote:
| The connector's on the top, the bottom is simply a
| retention clip. If it breaks, you can replace it with
| tape, or simply resting the laptop on a surface while the
| cable is plugged in.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| That one yes. But Lenovo has great collabsible Ethernet
| ports that are very durable and this laptop is more than
| thick enough to house one.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| Because it's meant for ultra-slim devices that will be
| docked on Thunderbolt 99% of the time and that foldable
| RJ-45 jack is for the _" in case of emergency break
| glass"_ scenarios, that 1% of the time when you need to
| patch into a server physically without wasting time
| looking for a dongle, not for you to constantly
| plug/unplug ethernet cables in your laptop.
|
| If your uses case requires you to constantly plug/unplug
| ethernet cables in your laptop then you need a
| workstation class laptop with a full sized RJ-45 jack,
| not a sleek thin and light.
| znpy wrote:
| laptops without an rj-45 ethernet connector are just
| dumb.
|
| it's perfectly feasible to integrate one.
|
| just look a the dell latitude 7390. really, look at it:
|
| https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/eB6gGRDZWSYT4XW6SeSMtf-
| 120...
| rplnt wrote:
| That's just a place to gather junk. People rarely use
| rj-45 these days, that's why it's not present on most
| laptops.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| If by people you mean consumers, then yes, if you mean
| corporate/tech workers, then no.
| Toutouxc wrote:
| I don't think we even have a cable with RJ45 in the
| office I work in. Everyone's on Wi-Fi. All developers.
| Just saying.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| In our case it's the opposite. Whole company is wired. No
| WiFi.
| Razengan wrote:
| In our case it's the opposite. Whole company is WiFi. No
| wired.
| znpy wrote:
| we have it mixed: both wifi and wired are there. pick
| what's best for you.
| rplnt wrote:
| I mean all people. When you work on the laptop you
| probably connect more things than a network => you have a
| dock => you don't need the rj45. So there might be
| negligible amount of corporate workers that need it, and
| some portion of tech workers, maybe. But overall, out of
| all customers, it's not enough for the hassle. Especially
| since it has drawbacks for the rest of the customers.
| gertrunde wrote:
| Agreed, the point when I start to have to choose any two of
| usb-tethered phone / usb to ethernet / usb to wifi headset
| / usb to serial really gets infuriating.
| sleepybrett wrote:
| https://www.amazon.com/dp/B079GSMZ7G/
| znpy wrote:
| i have one of those, they work very well.
| gertrunde wrote:
| While that's great an everything, my preferred option is
| less dongles, not daisy-chaining them...
|
| Edit: Actually, didn't spot the Ethernet port on the
| first glance, might be worth a deeper look. :)
| CarelessExpert wrote:
| Looking at the design, I'm not sure that expansion card
| concept is responsible for the thicker case. The reality is,
| supporting replaceable memory, mainboard, etc, likely
| necessitated a somewhat thicker design.
|
| Assuming that's correct, I think it's kinda clever... it's
| basically a dongle system that allows the modules to sit
| flush instead of jutting out of the side of the laptop.
| jonnycomputer wrote:
| Yeah. Who needs a swiss army knife anyway. Just carry two
| knives, a can opener, a corkscrew, a nail filer, a pair of
| scissors, a saw, a screw driver, fish scaler, magnifying lens
| and toothpick.
| robotnikman wrote:
| If it were a phone, I would agree. But laptops are much
| roomier, and the space lost is probably negligible.
| e12e wrote:
| I guess someone misses pcmcia modems and network cards. Does
| seem a bit odd to not just go for plenty of USB c ports.
| addicted wrote:
| What Apple did was gave people a solution that looks good on
| the retail floor, but in practice involved carrying a bunch
| of dongles, which take up more space, can break more easily,
| can be easily forgotten and are more finicky while using.
|
| In practice it leads to a significantly worse product for the
| vast majority of users, for the benefit of the minority that
| falls in the pro crowd and is able to get all their work done
| solely through USB-C ports.
|
| But the Apple Pro crowd users tend to include a lot of
| audio/video professionals who have a lot of expensive devices
| they tend to connect through USB-A, HDMI, etc, Photographers
| who were big fans of the SD card readers, and business people
| who didn't really need pro devices but could afford them, and
| were fan of the video outputs for connecting to projectors
| and monitors, and maybe even LAN inputs because many offices
| tend to discourage WiFi networks.
|
| I think Apples big mistake was a category mistake. If they
| had made the MacBook or MacBook Air all USB-C, for example,
| there wouldn't have been too much of an outcry. But the
| MacBook Pro line is the same one that carried a FW 400 port
| years after FW800 had been released and even after FW itself
| was kinda dead besides certain niche applications (which
| tended to be popular with Apple pro users).
| purpmint008 wrote:
| I am an Apple hater who owns a MacBook and an iPad. I am
| extremely happy with their USB-C decision. I want USB-C
| everywhere. Just buy one of the all-encompassing USB-C hubs
| or just buy individual adapters/dongles for your needs. It
| makes every laptop customizable. That's why I like it.
| zepto wrote:
| > the vast majority of users
|
| The vast majority of users don't carry a bunch of dongles
| around.
|
| It's just true. What are most people doing?
|
| Zoom, Excel, PowerPoint, Browser, Slack, etc.
| rsj_hn wrote:
| There are dongles at home and dongles to carry. For home,
| I need a DVI adaptor that goes into a separately powered
| USB 3 hub so I can use a monitor, and I can plug my
| keyboard and mouse into that. I am not a fan of the extra
| wiring though, needing to power the hub takes up one more
| electrical outlet, but it's not mobile and I can hide it,
| so no biggie.
|
| But that means when I carry the laptop around I have to
| carry a dongle for the mouse or not use the mouse. It
| depends. The mouse is ergonomic and easier on my hands
| than the trackpad, so I prefer to carry it. It's just one
| dongle, and I'm already carrying the mouse, so not too
| bad.
|
| I also need USB 2 for my Yubikey, which is USB 2.0.
|
| Before I had USB headsets but that would be 3 USB 2.0
| devices and my portable hub only accepts two, so I
| ditched them and switched to the old wired iphone earbuds
| since they are light and stateless.
|
| That also means I have to give up my ergonomic keyboard
| and use the flat keyboard, but usually that's OK unless I
| am on a long trip. If I'm on a long trip, I'll want that
| ergonomic keyboard after a lot of typing at which point
| it's 3 USB 2.0 devices and then I need to bring the
| powered hub with its own adaptor. I can leave that where
| I'm staying and just take the mouse to the coffee shop.
| But this adds complexity.
|
| All in all, it's doable, I'm not complaining that it is
| an insurmountable obstacle, but I would prefer a computer
| that was a bit thicker and heavier but had more ports
| built just to reduce the overall complexity of the setup
| and not worry if I brought everything with me. When you
| compare the weight of the usb hub and its adaptor to the
| extra weight added by adding a few more ports, I'd prefer
| the laptop to be a bit less demanding in input
| requirements. To me that would make for a more mobile
| solution overall.
|
| But honestly these are minor issues.
| zepto wrote:
| Sure - I'm not saying _nobody_ needs dongles. I have
| several usb hubs _and_ dongles attached to my _desktop_
| iMac.
|
| I'm just saying that that simply isn't true for most
| people.
| novok wrote:
| I think either are fine TBH. Framework will definitely be a
| niche play to a segment of a pro market that is currently
| ignored. It will probably cost more than most equivalent
| laptops. They could in the future make a chassis that is just
| 4 USB-C ports and give you the space savings for other
| things.
|
| I think the flush USB-C dongles are actually clever in
| another way, you could make storage expansion bricks that
| have pass through USB (or no passthrough) and get more
| storage on your laptop beyond the one M.2 slot. It would be
| especially nice for video editor types, who I've seen
| literally velcro expansion SSDs to their macbooks with USB
| angle adapters [0] because dealing with dangling drives is
| annoying.
|
| [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ljFfuzStEQ
| JoshTriplett wrote:
| > This solution is sort of clever but it sacrifices a ton of
| internal space that could have been spent on a bigger
| battery.
|
| I wondered about that as well. Looking at the picture at the
| top of the main page, I see one small battery, and
| electronics that take up 2-3x the size of normal laptop
| electronics. Most current laptops have 60-80% of their
| chassis space occupied by batteries.
|
| However, the description mentions a 55Wh battery, which is
| quite reasonable for a thin-and-light laptop. It says 1.3kg,
| which is a little heavier than desirable for the form factor
| (1-1.2kg), but not by much. On balance, this looks like a
| _much_ more reasonable set of tradeoffs than past
| "repairable laptop" efforts I've seen; Framework is putting
| serious hardware engineering effort into this.
| znpy wrote:
| tbh the adapter card really looks like a simple adaptor with an
| usb-c/thunderbolt plug on one side. it'll take a week or two
| for chinese knock-off to appear on aliexpress etc.
|
| what i wonder is:
|
| - can those cards be locked in place?
|
| - can i hotplug/hot-unplug them ?
| nrp wrote:
| They are hot swappable, and they latch in place. There is a
| button on the bottom of the system to release the latch.
| rzzzt wrote:
| Can they be locked in place? I'm wondering if it will
| withstand the pull of eg. the USB-A connection while it is
| being unplugged, and disconnect on the USB-C side instead.
| znpy wrote:
| thanks!
| oconnore wrote:
| Nespresso pods for silicon sound great! I'm not a hardware
| engineer, I'm just tired of $800 "replace the entire main
| board" repairs when I broke my 'H' key.
| Schlaefer wrote:
| These laptops exist today, just vote with your wallet. I
| don't know, Lenovo's T-series is popular, e.g. the T14:
| Here's how to do it (page 72) [1], new keyboard costs around
| 50 bucks.
|
| [1] https://download.lenovo.com/pccbbs/mobiles_pdf/t14_gen1_p
| 14s...
| xbar wrote:
| I agree with you. I cannot avoid saying: you don't have to
| throw your whole coffeemaker out after every pot if you don't
| have Nespresso.
| nrp wrote:
| We will be releasing specifications and reference designs for
| the Expansion Card system under a permissive license. We want
| to make it easy for both other companies and members of the
| community to develop their own cards and sell them through the
| Framework Marketplace. That is something we'll be detailing and
| sharing between now and the time we start shipping out the
| product. We'll also provide documentation around internal
| interfaces, though those will be more technically challenging
| for an individual to be able to build something with.
| jedimastert wrote:
| This might be a silly question, but it looks like the
| adapters are just usb-c/thunderbolt devices with a nice case.
| Is this the case? I'm not knocking it if it is, I personally
| think it'd be pretty clever, but it means being able to use
| them in other places (like pretending the storage expansion
| thing is just a usb-c flash-drive) and it would have
| interesting implications for making them.
| nrp wrote:
| That's correct. That is one of the intended use cases for
| our Storage Expansion Cards. You can use it on your
| Framework Laptop, pop it out, plug it into an other machine
| that supports USB-C, and transfer files at high speed.
| judge2020 wrote:
| Dongles, but built into the case. Amazing.
| musingsole wrote:
| I'm in love.
| cwxm wrote:
| Not sure if that was your intention, but I would pay
| Apple level prices for this.
| kspacewalk2 wrote:
| >We want to make it easy for both other companies and members
| of the community to develop their own cards and sell them
| through the Framework Marketplace.
|
| What if they don't want to sell through the Framework
| Marketplace?
| nrp wrote:
| They can choose not to, but since the Framework Laptop
| itself is sold through our Marketplace, it's a good way to
| get in front of the existing users!
| rsync wrote:
| Can you somehow bring back the PCMCIA interface ?
|
| Favorite hardware form factor ever ...
| sedatk wrote:
| It looks like the laptop supports any kind of expansion
| card that can be bridged over USB-C. So, it's just a matter
| of someone developing it for the platform.
| likesfwlaptop wrote:
| Hello, glad you're here but I'd urge you to remember that
| while a minority at HN is highly knowledgeable and technical,
| hn is an hive-mind opinionated niche and hope that you'd make
| decisions that widen your reach among general populace so
| that your firm survives to make money and eventually more
| such laptops. (Also, hopefully your laptop will play with
| linux as well as Lenovo's at some point in future).
| NicoJuicy wrote:
| Pretty rude and then you ask them to focus on <2% of market
| share...
|
| Perhaps there are more urgent tasks for "targeting the
| general populace to reach profitability".
| tomtheelder wrote:
| I think you've interpreted the comment you replied to
| completely backwards.
| NicoJuicy wrote:
| You sure? It's a new account and it's a totally weird
| comment without any real value.
|
| Ps. That's why I hate potential sarcasm.
| input_sh wrote:
| It might be <2% of _all_ market, but amongst tinkerers? I
| 'd be surprised if it's below like 10-15%.
| ogre_codes wrote:
| This is what I was thinking. Maybe even more.
|
| If this laptop doesn't support Linux, it's a big missed
| opportunity.
| teekert wrote:
| Did you find they don't work well with Linux? That'd be a
| big shame, I think the Foss crowd likes these kind of
| initiatives.
| mymindstorm wrote:
| It seems like it will work just fine:
|
| > For those of you who love to tinker, we've also created
| the Framework Laptop DIY Edition, the only high-end
| notebook available as a kit of modules that you can
| customize and assemble yourself, with the ability to
| choose Windows or install your preferred Linux
| distribution.
| whitten wrote:
| The modularity of a Framework Laptop promises a lot of
| good. I know there are some workplaces where having wifi
| working is not permitted. Is this modular enough to have
| a wired networking plug and not have a wireless wifi ?
|
| Thanks for your info
| dmos62 wrote:
| Compatibility and upgradability (together with
| maintainability) is why I stopped using laptops. Your offer
| sounds interesting, but if it's a platform, instead of a free
| standard, it's a far cry from the freedom and competition in
| the stationary PC market. Maybe that's what it takes to move
| the issue along. I don't know. But that's my knee-jerk
| reaction.
| marcodiego wrote:
| Any chance of the company ever releasing only the chassis so
| I can buy it and put my favorite arm sbc inside it?
| Shared404 wrote:
| I would also be interested in this.
| nrp wrote:
| Actually, yes! We will be offering the chassis by itself.
| The intent is to make sure that someone can get back into a
| good state if they drop their laptop down the stairs or
| something, but there is nothing preventing you from picking
| one up to use for your own projects (though adapting
| everything to work with an ARM SBC would be non-trivial).
| traverseda wrote:
| What makes it non-trivial? I'd love to see a standard
| laptop frame that all the SBC manufacturers could throw
| their board in.
|
| I imagine their could be vendor-specific expansion cards
| for SBC's, like one that is just an HDMI extension which
| only works with the vendors SBC and doesn't use USB-c.
| Maybe vendors could implement one "framework" compatible
| expansion port and provide several of their own expansion
| cards that only implement SBC features, and plug directly
| into the SBC instead of generic usb-c.
| marcodiego wrote:
| Cool! Please make the display hdmi compatible and you
| will own an entire underserved market.
| kettro wrote:
| It mentions the keyboard as being modular - any chance of a
| trackpoint keyboard?
| Ayesh wrote:
| I upgraded my five year used laptop just last month, and this
| would have been an ideal one.
|
| However, lack of an AMD CPU is a kind of deal breaker for me,
| even if it means I wouldn't get USB 4.
| superinterwebs wrote:
| how about a microphone hardware switch?
| owenversteeg wrote:
| This looks really cool. I'm especially loving the weight. I
| really dislike a lot of recent laptops for their fragility and
| lack of upgrade capacity, so currently I'm using a T440P which
| comes in around 2.26kg - so if this is 1.3kg that's nearly a kilo
| of weight savings.
|
| The replaceable battery is great, the weight is great, the design
| is pretty good, and the keyboard seems fine - 1.5mm of key travel
| is usable. (The T440P has around 2.2mm, and according to [0] all
| current Thinkpads are 1.8mm except X1 Carbon/Yoga/L14/L15 at
| 1.5mm)
|
| My big question, though, is the durability. If you drop this
| thing a few times, will I have any problems? What about water
| damage - have you tested anything (intentionally or
| unintentionally?) Any drain holes? If I was to spill a decent bit
| of water on the keyboard, would that have a 10%/30%/80% chance of
| killing it?
|
| [0]
| https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/jhay05/which_curr...
| bogwog wrote:
| I too love my Thinkpad(s), but pitting this thing against such
| high standards is asking a lot.
|
| Sure it'd be nice, but I'm not going to hold it against them if
| their laptop can't survive a fire/spill/drop.
| owenversteeg wrote:
| Also, I'm sure there are lots of people in this thread who've
| tried a similar search, so what laptops are out there with most
| of the following: good keyboard, under 1.5kg, durable, battery
| life >6h, RAM > 8GB, semi-repairable?
|
| My current model is a T440p, so using that as a comparison.
|
| So far my search has turned up:
|
| - Old Macbooks where the keyboard was still decent (but
| unfortunately they're not too tough or repairable)
|
| - T470s or T460s: the T460s was the first model with the new
| magnesium case and the T470s keeps the same case (and is only a
| small change to the T460s.) Advantage of that is a 250g weight
| savings (1.35kg total!), 49 Wh battery that lasts 6-8 hours and
| charges to 80% in 90 minutes, traditional "yellow" Thinkpad
| charger on the T460s and USB-C charging on the T470s. It
| doesn't come at a huge cost in terms of durability either -
| still passes the MIL-STD-810. The T460s was the last of the S
| line to have drainage holes - the T470 and T460s have them, the
| T470s and T480s do not, but instead claim to have a "spillproof
| keyboard". Versus the T450s, it has HDMI out instead of VGA,
| has both batteries inside the case (no increased battery
| capacity), and better battery life with the base config.
| Unfortunately the batteries aren't removable on the outside, so
| it's a bit more of a pain to buy a used version of these (as
| you'd want to replace the batteries.)
|
| - T450s: same case as T440 versions, last model with VGA out
| (which is super useful, I had a popular rant on VGA here a year
| or two ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20431195)
| Basically a mildly upgraded T440s, which is a good, if heavy
| laptop. Default capacity of 48Wh (24+24) and total weight
| 1.58kg with standard battery - good for 5h new, or 96Wh (24+72)
| and total weight 1.77kg with extended battery - good for ~10h
| new. And you can hot swap because of the internal battery!
|
| - T480s: very similar physically (weight + case + materials
| wise) to T470s. Significantly faster processor than T470s,
| continuing the trend started by the T470s of spill resistant +
| no drain holes. Mechanical shutter for the webcam! Same
| keyboard as T470s, aka very good. Better thermal management
| than T470s! Speakers still the same old Thinkpad speakers, aka
| shitty. Slightly larger battery - 57Wh vs 51Wh in T470s - and a
| fast charge to 80% in 60 minutes - so 9-12 hours of real world
| battery life.
|
| If anyone has any additional models to suggest, please do!
| auggierose wrote:
| No powerful GPU seems to be planned, though.
| tablespoon wrote:
| > Designed for the future of work with a 13.5" 3:2 screen with
| 2256x1504 resolution
|
| I approve of this. 16:9 computer screens are an abomination.
| simonebrunozzi wrote:
| Which OS will you be able to run?
| aasasd wrote:
| > _Our Expansion Card system makes adapters a thing of the past,
| letting you choose exactly the ports you want and which side of
| the notebook you want them on_
|
| PC Card, is that you? Long time no see.
| hnedeotes wrote:
| They look pretty good to me, I just shelled out for a laptop but
| would love to see the concept take over.
|
| The build quality is always the most essential: - monitor - this
| is what we look at for hours on every day - keyboard - I
| personally like macbook's perhaps is just being used to them (pre
| and post butterfly, that one I haven't tried) - trackpad - every
| other trackpad I tried besides mbs feel always a bit plastiky,
| also, no outside keys for the trackpad
|
| Good luck
| msie wrote:
| It's too bad it doesn't have buttons for mouse clicks. I can't do
| precise mousing when the touch pad is also the mouse button. Too
| bad so many laptops do this.
| adamc wrote:
| I give them credit for an interesting attempt. I don't think I'm
| the market, but.
| samizdis wrote:
| Ars Technica has a sceptical but optimistic/hopeful take on it:
|
| https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/framework-startup-de...
|
| Edit to add quote from Ars article:
|
| _Framework is promising an awful lot in its very first product--
| "thin as an XPS 13, repairable as a custom-built gaming PC" is a
| pretty tall order to live up to. We very much want to believe,
| but it's going to take a full Ars Technica teardown before we're
| completely convinced.
|
| Although we're skeptical, we are hopeful--the fledgling company
| does have a pretty solid pedigree. Framework founder Nirav Patel
| was Oculus VR's head of hardware from 2012 to 2017, and he was a
| Facebook director of engineering beyond that. The company's team
| also includes design, engineering, and operations people hailing
| from Apple, Google, and Lenovo._
| arcturus17 wrote:
| They've got the street cred but producing and marketing
| hardware is so damn hard.
|
| Ouya and the Essential phone are two cases that immediately
| spring to mind where the founding teams were credible, but the
| products ended up being massive flops.
|
| Good luck to them anyway. The idea is cool and I think if I
| were on the lookout for a Linux laptop and they delivered on
| their quality promise, I'd consider them.
| jonplackett wrote:
| Laptops seems a very different situation to this though.
|
| There isn't a huge amount of ready to use phone hardware from
| multiple competitive consumer suppliers I feel like
| integrating into a phone myself.
|
| But there are those things for a laptop.
|
| If they can make this work at a reasonable price it would be
| appealing even to me as an ardent Mac user.
| SilverRed wrote:
| The OUYA did not have this problem. They packed stock
| standard android hardware in to a box. The problem was that
| it didn't have enough games to make it worth buying or
| enough developers to make it work targeting.
|
| I haven't read the details of this specific laptop in the
| OP but I have seen similar projects go nowhere. What
| usually happens is the product ends up a lot more expensive
| and lower quality than a mass produced laptop and the
| project doesn't live long enough to release a second gen of
| hardware.
|
| It would make more sense for me to buy 2 Dell XPS laptops
| over the next 10 years that to buy this hobby project and
| if I even can, buy the upgrade kit.
| jonplackett wrote:
| Yeah it depends if you really can use cheap hardware with
| it or if they're just locking you into their own
| proprietary stuff, which as you say, could just get
| discontinued.
| samizdis wrote:
| Yes, I remember being particularly disappointed when Google's
| Project Ara [1] to create a modular mobile phone was shelved.
| It seemed like a fantastic idea, and I truly thought that
| Alphabet/Google had the cash/clout - and will - to deliver.
|
| Still, I haven't lost my optimism just yet. As you say, good
| luck to Framework with the laptop project.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Ara
| robotnikman wrote:
| I feel like building a modular laptop is much easier than a
| modular phone. You don't have to deal with the hardware
| enumeration problems on x86 as you do with ARM
|
| Already many laptops you can easily swap parts like the
| HDD/SSD, Battery and RAM, and even the GPU (to an extent)
| if its using a standard like MXM. Building a laptop with
| more modular parts using existing standards (looks like
| from the images the modular parts are using USB C
| Thunderbolt?) is much more doable than a modular phone.
| pimeys wrote:
| It wasn't that long ago when manufacturers like Dell and
| Lenovo had models where you could basically replace
| almost everything. I guess still models like the T14
| allows you to replace RAM, SSD, Wi-Fi card, keyboard,
| touchpad and even the screen.
|
| For the older models, even screen replacements are quite
| common in the ThinkPad community...
|
| Good luck for this project though, we really need more
| companies like this!
| notagoodidea wrote:
| On some older Thinkpads, even CPU replacement was on the
| menu.
| pimeys wrote:
| I think the 2012 generation was the last one. T420 at
| least.
| baybal2 wrote:
| Yep, designing custom ssd, gpu, ram pcbs will be of
| course more expensive, and take time.
|
| USB 3, and Thunderbolt are also complete disasters power
| consumption wise, not to say that Type-C, and Thunderbolt
| chips cost arm, and a leg.
| jkepler wrote:
| There's Fairphone, already two generations of modular phone
| design. Unfortunately, they're only officially supported in
| Europe. But if you're in Europe, and want a modular phone,
| they're where its at.
| Tijdreiziger wrote:
| And IIRC they have LCD screens... Always-on display is a
| 'killer app' for me, so that immediately rules out the
| FP2.
|
| (Tangentially related: I don't really understand why
| Apple doesn't include this feature, even though they use
| OLED screens.)
| kilroy123 wrote:
| I too wanted to see this work, but I was skeptical. Maybe
| it's just too ahead of its time?
| estaseuropano wrote:
| See Fairphone!
| lallysingh wrote:
| They were competing with their partners, that was always
| going to end poorly. It could only ever be an experiment.
| blacksmith_tb wrote:
| Hasn't that always been true? Their Pixel 4a kept me from
| buying a competitor's product.
| xondono wrote:
| I was never very optimistic about Ara. In general, modular
| electronics is a good idea in paper, but a terrible one in
| practice.
|
| - It comes with quite the price tag, adding connectors
| everywhere gets expensive _fast_.
|
| - Some interfaces are very tricky to modularize, RAM & CPU
| are very closely linked, and it's very hard to protect them
| from ESD.
|
| - Which generally points you to the PC solution, don't
| protect it, enclose everything and standardize.
|
| There's also the more "business" part of modular
| electronics. PC parts are only cheap through massive
| volume, but building a modular phone requires you to
| (mostly) build all of your parts. The only way to make it
| feasible requires more than one device using the same
| modules, which defeats the uniqueness of the device.
|
| Laptops are way more feasible just because that
| modularization is already on the market, and you don't need
| to build your own RAM SODIMMs or SSDs.
| tpmx wrote:
| Project Ara seemed quite impractical/naive at the time.
| Myself (and some people I trusted) dismissed it as yet
| another Google flight of fancy.
|
| This thing though, I can kind of see it working.
|
| Basically: The pressure to minimize volume + weight is way
| too high for a mobile phone to become modular. Then add
| recent requirements like IP68 ratings.
|
| In a laptop there's still some breathing room for
| modularity. And noone expects a laptop to survive an
| accidental drop into a pool.
| offtop5 wrote:
| I think the problem here is you have two complicated things
| to solve, both hardware and software and you're trying to do
| it with out too much money.
|
| A small hardware project on its own might be doable.
| arcturus17 wrote:
| Yea I agree the scope is more manageable than the examples
| I mentioned.
|
| But even then, they're tackling a very hard problem.
| Branding, manufacturing, quality assurance, distribution...
| So many things can go wrong.
|
| I'm not making a prediction but I'm with Ars Technica in
| the "healthy skeptic" camp. I do hope they beat the odds.
| waheoo wrote:
| I'm very hopefully for this company. I just hope they drop the
| passive aggressive "block" remarks.
|
| Maybe its me but I suspect they're referring to decade old
| ThinkPad that have since evolved a lot to thin performance
| beasts.
|
| Passive aggressive remarks towards things your target market
| holds nostalgia for is likely not going to end well.
|
| It's also setting themselves up for failure if their cooling
| solution doesn't beat a modern ThinkPads dual fan solution.
|
| The aluminium case is also extremely questionable. Is your
| target demo thinkpad users or Dell users that want to take
| things apart. Hate to break it to you but Dell users don't give
| a fuck. It's why they have a Dell. Most think pad users value
| plastic chassis. They're lighter (13" at 1.3kg, are you nuts?)
| more durable, and more palatable on your lap when they warm up
| they're also more cost effective.
| sanitycheck wrote:
| Hi, Dell Latitude user for 20+ years here. I buy them because
| they're easily upgradable and I can get parts after the
| (excellent) warranty expires. It's true I don't give a fuck
| about aluminium!
|
| Dell started soldering RAM in the past couple of years
| though, so if this thing exists when I next need to buy a
| laptop and it remotely justifies its high price I'd be
| interested.
| agumonkey wrote:
| who else here had napkin design of just this ?
|
| now let's have a pocket variant that revives the old google
| modular project
| nrp wrote:
| "thin as an XPS 13, repairable as a custom-built gaming PC" was
| not actually a direct quote from us, but it's nice that the
| folks at Ars think of our design that way!
| Abishek_Muthian wrote:
| All the best, Nirav. Long lasting repairable computing
| hardware is what we need now and goes a long way than just
| not including the charger within the box.
| tw04 wrote:
| Any plans to support AMD chips?
| Elof wrote:
| Really stoked for this. Good luck
| bo1024 wrote:
| Good luck, very excited for this! Any chance of a Linux or
| no-OS option?
| 1stcity3rdcoast wrote:
| The article says there's a linux/no-os option
| aidenn0 wrote:
| But only if you order the kit, not if you get it
| preassembled I believe.
| nrp wrote:
| This is correct. There's nothing technical preventing us
| from offering a pre-built bring your own OS system, but
| we figured there's high overlap between that audience and
| those who want to assemble a kit themselves. This reduces
| the amount of pre-built inventory we need to hold.
| reasonabl_human wrote:
| I get the business case of universal pre-built inventory,
| but offering a Linux version out of the box signals that
| all hardware is compatible and fully functional...
| supported at a first-party level.
|
| More and more developers in big tech companies using
| Linux just expect it to work and aren't interested in
| monkeying around with drivers and configs.. not to say
| they can't, but why increase friction for your dev setup?
|
| This is one of the reasons why the XPS 13 Developer
| edition exists. Guaranteed first party support for
| Linux.. you know the next kernel or major revision won't
| Bork your setup... you can just focus on working within
| the env.
|
| Offering a preinstalled Linux variant captures the market
| referenced above, and signals to tinkerers that this is a
| good platform to build on since all hardware is supported
| without jenky workarounds.
|
| Alternatively, if you can't make offering dedicated Linux
| installs an economically feasible thing, then perhaps
| offer a mirror or set of instructions to set up latest
| LTS builds of various Linux flavors, to indicate full
| compatibility? Because that is the real selling point.
| Knowing all of your hardware is supported as a first
| party product. That's one of the biggest reasons why I
| chose an XPS this time around, and considered a System76
| machine as well.
| Valkhyr wrote:
| Seconded. I don't really need Linux pre-installed, but
| when I make a buying decision I would be much more likely
| to buy a laptop that is (a) guaranteed to be fully
| compatible with Linux out of the box, and that (b) the
| manufacturer will honor their warranty no matter which OS
| I choose to run.
|
| That said, I think offering Linux pre-installed would be
| very nice as a signaling function to attract technical-
| minded users.
| nrp wrote:
| Great feedback. We will definitely at minimum post guides
| and compatibility test results for the most popular
| distros and ensure that at least Ubuntu LTS has a
| straightforward path to full hardware functionality.
| wing-_-nuts wrote:
| Good man. I bought my XPS 13 explicitly because of dells
| 'developer edition'. I don't need my OS pre-installed,
| but I _do_ want it fully validated and working. Make a 14
| " and I just might give this laptop to my parents and buy
| yours.
| bo1024 wrote:
| nrp's reply makes complete sense, but I like this
| argument as well.
| rkangel wrote:
| > There's nothing technical preventing us from offering a
| pre-built bring your own OS system, but we figured
| there's high overlap between that audience and those who
| want to assemble a kit themselves.
|
| This may be projecting myself onto others but I wonder if
| that's actually true, and I would indicate the Dell and
| Lenovo Linux options as evidence.
|
| I personally run Linux on my laptop to reduce pain and
| time spent doing unnecessary maintenance - I run Fedora
| on a Lenovo and it works seamlessly. If I bought a
| Framework, it would be for upgradability and
| maintainability rather than for customisation.
| Brakenshire wrote:
| It's not the end of the world, but not everyone who uses
| Linux enjoys tinkering, some just want solid out of the
| box support for Ubuntu, Fedora, etc.
| Valkhyr wrote:
| Yep. I love Linux but hate having to futz around to get
| basic stuff working. I'm ready to mess with some things
| like display orientation on non-standard hardware like a
| GPD Pocket to some extent, since you can't really expect
| full out of the box support there, but when it comes to a
| proper laptop I'm averse to OS-level tinkering just to
| make stuff work (as opposed to tinkering in order to
| customize to my preferences).
| jdormit wrote:
| Nothing stopping just installing linux on the
| preassembled one when you get I though, I assume.
| Although I guess you may have to pay for a Windows
| license in that case...
| zorrolovsky wrote:
| Yes, and that's the issue with most computers today:
| there's no way to opt out to Windows. Whether you like it
| or not, licensing cost is blended into the computer and
| even if you don't use Windows you're somehow supporting a
| company that you might not want to support.
|
| I undertand in 99.9% of cases people just want to buy a
| laptop, turn it on and have it working. But I also think
| there should be an easy way to opt out of Windows
| enforced by law so that MS don't bang up numbers due to
| shady commercial practices.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| My understanding is that companies are worried about
| being perceived as tacitly supporting piracy if they ship
| with no OS. I know, for example, HP will not sell you a
| laptop with no OS, but they will sell you one with
| FreeDOS.
| not2b wrote:
| In many cases, the cost of the license to the OEM is
| negative. That's because the cost of the Windows license
| is more than outweighed by the payments they get for
| crapware, adware, and 30-day trials, they get paid to
| pre-install (and the crapware requires Windows). It would
| actually cost them more to ship with no OS.
| Silhouette wrote:
| That's been true historically in a lot of cases, but
| isn't the whole point of the Framework to do things in a
| different and better way? It would be very disappointing
| if a laptop like this was shipping with that kind of
| junkware installed as standard even on a Windows pre-
| install. In fact, it would instantly reverse my position
| having just heard about these guys from something like "I
| wish you luck, this is a much healthier direction to push
| the industry in, and by the way let me know when it's
| available in the UK because I am definitely a potential
| customer" to something I won't repeat here that involves
| not wanting anything to do with them or their products.
| nrp wrote:
| No need to worry! Our Windows pre-install is vanilla. The
| only software added is the set of drivers strictly needed
| to make the hardware function.
| Silhouette wrote:
| Good answer. In that case, I shall remain happy to have
| discovered you today and I shall continue to wish you
| luck in shifting the market in healthier directions. :-)
|
| FWIW, I'd be much more interested in your products as a
| solid platform for running Linux than whatever junk MS is
| including in Windows 10 this week anyway. But sometimes
| small issues can say a disproportionate amount about
| where a business really stands on some issues I care
| about, and things like having control over my own
| hardware and software for reasons ranging from longevity
| to privacy are high on my personal list.
| 1stcity3rdcoast wrote:
| This is super exciting and I can't wait to see the machines
| in the wild. Congrats on the launch!
| TimTheTinker wrote:
| Any chance you'd consider an ARM64 architecture in the future
| (like a Broadcom SOC)?
| eecc wrote:
| Will you consider designing the chassis to be coffee-spill
| resistant? (if it's not already)
|
| Also, will you consider establishing an EU warehouse to
| reduce shipping and customs overhead?
| Waterluvian wrote:
| I really really really want this to be a real thing.
|
| Good luck!!!
| IQunder130 wrote:
| I hope this business of yours works out because a laptop that
| isn't a piece of junk with too much stuff I don't need
| inflating the price is something I've been wanting for a long
| time.
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| I've still never seen a PC with a sane touchpad. That's the
| first issue in a long tail of grievances with the PC laptop
| ecosystem.
|
| EDIT: This isn't a generic "pro-Mac" dig, I _want_ a nice
| PC laptop because I like dabbling with Linux; however, even
| the high end trackpads are clunky, even with the pre-
| installed Windows (never mind the eternal sadness that is
| Linux trackpad configuration).
| sudosteph wrote:
| I'll be honest, I've used a laptop as a primary computing
| device my whole life - and I have no idea what a "sane
| touchpad" would even be. They really are so frequently
| bad that I can't imagine what a good one would be like. I
| mostly use PCs (often with Linux), but used a mac for
| work for while - and I can't really say I saw the appeal
| in that touchpad either. Besides issues that come from
| low-quality pads + linux drivers (ghost mouse movements
| as I type, stupid imprecision from weird acceleration
| setting) - I don't like the way that most touch pads feel
| cold and metallic, and how they always attract dust you
| can feel as you use.
|
| My solution has always been to just keep a wireless mouse
| with rechargable AA's in my backpack. If I'm using my
| laptop on a couch at home, I have a wooden lap desk with
| ample mouse space to accommodate it.
|
| Additionally, the thinkpad I have now has both an eraser
| mouse and touch screen + stylus (as well as a trackpad),
| so if I do have to leave my mouse at home, I at least
| have options. I like the eraser mouse because I don't
| have to move my fingers away from the keyboard - and even
| if it feels it takes slightly longer to move - it's more
| pleasant tactile experience for me.
| solraph wrote:
| I'm with you on this one. I just find them incredibly
| difficult to use long term, despite multiple years across
| the various Macs and PC laptops I've used.
|
| I strongly suspect most of the complaints about PC
| trackpads are a bit like Windows/Linux/Mac users
| complaining about the current font rendering on any of
| the others. I can't help wondering how much is just
| personal preference + a bit of echo chamber.
| withmorten wrote:
| Well actually, Win10 font rendering is broken, i.e. 1 and
| l look completely the same on Courier New on Win10, but
| not on Win7 ... there are years old bug reports (it broke
| in some feature update), but of course those have been
| ignored.
| neverminder wrote:
| My Dell Precision 7750 touchpad works flawlessly and I'm
| running Ubuntu. The touchpad is optimal size, similar to
| that of Apple's I think. It also has 3 physical buttons,
| middle click is my favorite which by default is
| configured to open a link in a new tab. Multipoint touch
| and gestures work fine as well, at least those that I use
| - two finger touch for right click menu and two finger
| gesture for scrolling. Because it's a rather new touchpad
| by Dell, Initially the physical right button didn't work,
| which was a bit annoying, but eventually the problem was
| solved with kernel update.
| nkrisc wrote:
| For whatever reason, I've never used a laptop that wasn't
| a MacBook that has had a trackpad anywhere as amazing as
| what Apple has done. I don't know if the problem is
| hardware, software, or both, but as a consumer I don't
| care. I'll never buy a non-Apple laptop until I can find
| one that has a trackpad as good or better. That's my
| personal requirement. On a personal laptop I always use
| the trackpad so I want it to be the best.
| gburdell3 wrote:
| It has to be software. I have a ThinkPad that I recently
| installed macOS on (not advocating hackintosh, but it's a
| fun project nonetheless) and the trackpad feels every bit
| as good as a real Mac. Smooth scrolling, smooth gesture
| recognition, everything just feels good. The hardware is
| capable of processing the gestures, but the non-Apple
| software just does a terrible job of making it feel good
| to use.
| hamburglar wrote:
| It's definitely not just software. If you connect an
| Apple Magic Trackpad to a Linux machine running X, it
| works way, way better than the garbage that's built into
| most PC laptops.
|
| Also note that Lenovo itself has a huge variation in
| trackpad quality. My relatively new thinkpad (thinkpad-
| branded but I think the model number was yoga 360) from
| work has a trackpad that is just barely usable. My
| personal yoga c740 has a trackpad that is actually pretty
| nice and gets close to MBP quality when it comes to
| movement/accuracy (it does still lack gestures and good
| right-click support though, and that is likely a software
| issue).
|
| I really hope these guys pick good trackpads. I can
| grudgingly live with a stunted feature set (gestures etc)
| for now because I know X makes it difficult or impossible
| to get right, but I absolutely cannot abide a trackpad
| that feels shitty and inaccurate just for moving the
| mouse around.
| garmaine wrote:
| This is true, although it is probably because of the
| software being built into the trackpad itself.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| I suspect the key software is in the firmware of the
| trackpad itself. The hardware does a lot of processing of
| the raw signals before it hands the data to the trackpad
| driver. The driver does additional processing, of course,
| but this also means that alternate trackpad
| implementations need more than just the right driver
| code. The firmware plays a key role.
| naikrovek wrote:
| > I suspect the key software is in the firmware of the
| trackpad itself.
|
| What your parent comment (the comment you replied to)
| said refutes the reply you made.
|
| They installed OSX on a _ThinkPad_ , and observed the
| desired OSX-like trackpad behavior. Apple does not write
| firmware for thinkpad pointing devices, so it cannot be
| firmware-specific behavior.
| [deleted]
| fpoling wrote:
| I have Intel MacBook Pro and the behavior of trackpad
| under Windows in BootCamp is just terrible while in a
| Windows VM or on a remote Windows desktop it is almost as
| good as on Mac. So I doubt it is in firmware.
| [deleted]
| dakial1 wrote:
| It it software. As they did to ios, the MacOs has highest
| priority to all interface actions.That's why the
| scrolling on ios and MacOs is usually very smooth. The
| interface get the highest priority so if the computer is
| struggling with lots of simulaneous processes, the
| interface still will feel smooth. Very smart solution to
| prioritize UX. Why they didn't do the same on
| windows/android? No idea.
| dmt0 wrote:
| Also good defaults. In fact they don't even have certain
| settings in MacOS. For example you can't change the
| pointer acceleration, but the default one is just
| perfect.
| anuragsoni wrote:
| > That's my personal requirement. On a personal laptop I
| always use the trackpad so I want it to be the best.
|
| 100%. On my personal devices I don't want to compromise
| on trackpad or keyboards (I like that apple went back on
| the butterfly keyboards).
|
| The rest of my comment is just my personal experience so
| take it with a grain of salt. I've found the trackpad
| experience on the XPS and Thinkpad X1 laptops to be
| excellent under linux. The libinput [1] drivers seem to
| work really well and the gesture support seems nice too.
| What I miss from MacBook's touchpad is force-touch. Not
| having to worry about which part of the touchpad i'm
| pressing was really nice when I used a macbook.
|
| I'm contemplating purchasing a m1 macbook air as my next
| laptop, but I'm also not sure i'd be willing to give up
| on being able to run linux natively on a laptop I buy
| with my own money.
|
| [1] https://github.com/wayland-project/libinput
| anuragsoni wrote:
| I didn't mention this in my comment, but i use wayland on
| linux and i've found the touchpad experience to be nicer
| there compared to X11, even though both X11 and wayland
| sessions for Gnome use libinput. I don't know much about
| libinput to know why I feel a difference in my touchpad
| experience between X11 and wayland.
| TimTheTinker wrote:
| > I'm also not sure i'd be willing to give up on being
| able to run linux natively on a laptop I buy with my own
| money.
|
| May I suggest sponsoring Hector Martin on GitHub[0]? He's
| working on building first-class support for the M1
| architecture (including drivers) into Linux.
|
| [0] https://github.com/marcan
| rfoo wrote:
| Caveat: may not include an awesome trackpad driver.
| coldtea wrote:
| If it includes a GPU driver, then the trackpad driver is
| trivial compared to that.
|
| Actually manufacturing the trackpad hardware might be
| difficult/expensive, but since that's already a given,
| the driver can be tweaked in tons of ways to fit the
| regular macOS experience...
| ankka wrote:
| Doing output is trivial compared to properly handling any
| type of free-form user input.
| coldtea wrote:
| A GPU driver for a new undocumentated architecture is
| "trivial" compared to properly doing an input driver for
| a touchpad?
|
| You make "properly handling any type of free-form user
| input" sound like rocket science, when it's the regular
| multi-touch kind of driver we have on billions of
| mobiles, and laptops...
|
| The "properly" here is just the sauce for macOS handling,
| not some inherent difficulty of "handling any type of
| free-form user input" on a 2D surface...
| auggierose wrote:
| It's because there is no great trackpad support outside
| the Mac. But there is good GPU support. So it seems,
| getting great trackpad support IS rocket science
| currently, for whatever reason. (I also wonder, what is
| going on there? I guess people on the other platforms
| just don't care about this detail, otherwise they would
| be on the Mac anyway).
| tibbetts wrote:
| I imagine getting the trackpad right is either a giant
| pile of heuristic rules, or a nice tagged data set for
| ML, or both, maybe with a side of online learning from
| usage. A trackpad that automatically does the right thing
| for me coding, my 12 year old gaming, and my 8 year old
| with sloppy fine motor control does seem like rocket
| science to me.
| aksss wrote:
| There are a lot of crappy trackpads on crappy PC laptops,
| but the ones on the high-end laptops are quite
| serviceable even if not the ideal version that Apple
| created. With a serviceable trackpad, the other benefits
| of having a PC over a Mac tend to far outweigh the
| trackpad (for people that value what a PC brings).
| auggierose wrote:
| Yes, I understand that, I am just not getting my head
| around why for example Windows is so bad with a trackpad
| either. I mean, how tough would it be for Microsoft to
| nail this if they cared?
| aksss wrote:
| They probably don't see it as their job. The fact that
| trackpad quality varies between makes/models implies that
| it's both a hardware and a software problem, the latter
| probably being drivers. Maybe there is something in the
| OS that hampers it though, I don't know. Would be
| interesting to hear from engineers at the OEMs. Frankly,
| when I read these comments about the problems of PC
| trackpads, it's like a foreign language to me. Problems
| with gestures, multi-touch or palm strikes.. I can't
| recall the last time I had a PC laptop with those
| problems. My XPS 2-in-1 9310 sits in a bag across the
| room and am typing on a four-five year old Lenovo right
| now, neither of which have any such problems. What I
| notice on the wife's MBP trackpad is the feel (glass) and
| the (good) lack of physical movement in trackpad - this
| lenovo is clearly a momentary switch and at the very
| upper end of the pad the force to needed to click is
| tougher, but it hardly matters. A tap accomplishes the
| same thing that a physical click does and is probably how
| I engage it most often. I'm just not sure it's as big a
| problem with decently-built PC laptops as people make it
| out to be. PC hardware has a lot more going for it that
| overshadows the delta between a 99% trackpad and a 94%
| trackpad. Things like a touchscreen, active digitizers,
| tablet modes, escape keys, function keys, facial
| recognition, variety.
| auggierose wrote:
| I will never need a touchscreen in my laptop. That's what
| my iPad is for, which I can connect to my laptop, by the
| way. Function keys I've last used in the previous
| millennium, and I've got an escape key, thank you very
| much. My laptop automatically unlocks via my watch. But
| yes, I expect facial recognition to come to the Mac very
| soon, too.
|
| And I've never used a PC trackpad with satisfaction rate
| of > 30% ;-) They are all shite.
|
| I guess it is just a matter of preference. As I said, if
| you care about the trackpad, you will never touch a PC
| laptop. If you don't, you think you have a 94% trackpad,
| and that it doesn't matter.
| aksss wrote:
| >I will never need a touchscreen in my laptop
|
| We'll see how that ages, but rock on with your mac.
| rfoo wrote:
| True, but then why don't we have awesome Linux trackpad
| drivers for Intel Macbooks?
| coldtea wrote:
| Isn't there a 1-2 year old project that claims to have
| made great trackpad driver behavior in Linux?
|
| I think this is the case I remember:
|
| https://bill.harding.blog/2020/04/26/linux-touchpad-like-
| a-m...
| [deleted]
| Siira wrote:
| We don't even have them for Bootcamp.
| TimTheTinker wrote:
| Apple's trackpad driver is massive, I think. Do not
| underestimate the amount of detailed work that went into
| it.
| mumblemumble wrote:
| I think it's got to be a little bit of both. My
| experience has been that the trackpad experience with
| Win10 on a MacBook is poor, and the trackpad experience
| on a hackintosh is also poor.
|
| I realize a sibling poster had a different hackintosh
| experience. I think that maybe supports my suspicion.
| Good hardware and good software are both necessary, but
| not sufficient, conditions of a good overall experience.
| tomp wrote:
| Funny you say that. I'm a long-time MacBook Pro user,
| that migrated to Microsoft (!) Surface Go (!!) running
| Windows 10 (!!!) recently. Not only is the OS tolerable
| (after I figured how to prevent crashes ... I mean,
| automatic updates) and the device more convenient than
| any I've used before (a real computer in the iPad form
| factor), the trackpad is amazing as well, I truly don't
| notice any difference with MacBook Pro trackpad!
| omilu wrote:
| Are you Bill Gates?
| TheRealSteel wrote:
| "I don't know if the problem is hardware, software, or
| both"
|
| The gulf continues to be so big that after so much time
| of nobody else even _appearing_ to _try_ to compete, I
| assume it 's patents.
| enw wrote:
| I'm guessing a big reason why it has never been
| prioritized is due to the difficulty of quantifying the
| impact of great trackpad UX (and as a result, the
| negative impact of the shitty trackpad UX every non-Apple
| device offers). Higher-ups don't like things that aren't
| easily quantified.
| pwdisswordfish0 wrote:
| Fan noise is the same. I bought a machine from a Linux
| laptop vendor. At the time of purchase, I raised my
| concerns about the risk of ultimately ending up
| disappointed when it arrived (particularly how pricey it
| was). They insisted that I would be happy, and that it
| would be much better than my 5 year old laptop that I was
| replacing.
|
| Not only was that not the case, it was worse than my own
| pessimism that I started with.
|
| The fan noise and the trackpad were so bad to the point
| that it felt like a joke, even though I knew it wasn't.
| People are just oblivious to this stuff and march onward
| none the wiser, even the people who _should_ be doing
| things like comparative analysis on quality against their
| competitors ' products.
| jack_riminton wrote:
| It's an interesting point. There must be some metrics
| i.e. latency, accuracy that a trackpad can be measured by
|
| Perhaps it needs to be a score via a user test e.g click
| these small randomly appearing boxes in the shortest time
| possible
| numpad0 wrote:
| I remember Wacom bragging about corporate secret
| quantitative measurement methodologies in Surface 3-4
| era, but what completely solved pen computing stagnation
| was Microsoft dropping them completely and Apple Pencil
| casually stepping in, so,
| Toutouxc wrote:
| Don't understand the downvotes. I believe that it's
| exactly this. It's an industry where you can point to a
| competitor's machine and compare gigahertz and megapixels
| and terabytes and gigaflops and build press releases on
| those numbers, where an industry leader tries to make a
| point with "It doesn't run Rocket League!", where
| manufacturers like Dell can put a nice touchpad in one
| machine and then build twelve awful ones a year later
| because they have so many models on so many markets that
| no one is even able to say with confidence why certain
| models have been more popular than others.
|
| Design and UX-wise, the current laptop market is a
| shitshow and Apple seems to be the only company that
| consistently cares about the little things. Sure, they've
| messed up in the past (butterfly keyboards), but there is
| still a sense of progress.
| vagrantJin wrote:
| > I'll never buy a non-Apple laptop until I can find one
| that has a trackpad as good or better
|
| _Funny that_
|
| Commenting on a thread about a non-apple laptop that
| you'll never buy a Non apple laptop.
|
| That is true and unadultered fanboyism.
| Toutouxc wrote:
| Where's the fanboyism in that? They were commenting on a
| post about how most PC touchpads suck and that for some
| people a great touchpad is a requirement, the absence of
| which would prevent them from buying other laptops, such
| as the Framework Laptop.
| vagrantJin wrote:
| > for some people a great touchpad is a requirement,
|
| The touchpad. Nothing else. Just the touchpad?
|
| I'm not given to _hyperbole_ but methinks there 's a lot
| of info and technical requirements that go into
| purchasing an expensive item such as a laptop. Screen
| size and quality, keyboard quality, ports, batter life,
| weight, performance, looks - oh you know...normal stuff.
|
| At least for us normal people. Maybe my mistake was
| there.
| jaegerpicker wrote:
| Where did he say that was the ONLY requirement? It's
| possibly the most important for him but unlikely to be
| the only requirement.
| Toutouxc wrote:
| A requirement, not THE [single] requirement. English
| isn't my first language but I believe that what I wrote
| is clear enough and you're playing dumb for some reason.
| rkangel wrote:
| This is the best place to talk about that. There may be
| multiple suppliers of trackpads for the Framework and so
| they GP might finally have some choice.
| vagrantJin wrote:
| Thats analogous to a vegetarian having something to say
| about the taste of meat at a BBQ joint.
|
| But I'm an idiot so take my opinions with a boatload.
| brailsafe wrote:
| There are so many people responding with incredulity to
| the fact that pc laptop makers haven't come up with a
| good Trackpad, but to me the reason is evident in the
| first interaction you have with any pc laptop
| manufacturer. Show me a pc laptop website that isn't an
| absolute horrific fucking mess, then find me a product on
| that website that doesn't look like a stupid broken
| plastic box thing, and then maybe we can start talking
| about trackpads. These companies seemingly want people to
| buy arbitrary products off the shelf and NEVER return.
| I'll grant that there may be a few notable exceptions,
| probably Razer is one, but the rest are abominations.
| pwdisswordfish0 wrote:
| The hardware + software configuration for the majority of
| touchpads I've used on Chromebooks are on par or better
| than MacBook touchpads. It's just that people pretend
| they don't exist, whether in consumer complaints
| comparing MacBooks to everything else, or by the people
| responsible for freedesktop-based software who themselves
| continue purchasing terrible hardware and keep the
| software (drivers, userspace apps, etc) in the same sad
| state that it's always been in instead of copying what's
| happening with Chromebooks.
|
| Look at Firefox for an example of the latter. I'm typing
| this on a Chromebook intended to run ChromeOS, but it's
| actually running Ubuntu. The touchpad experience from the
| factory is as good as it should be. When you wipe the
| machine and install Ubuntu and use Chrome, it's still
| pretty good. Running Firefox on the same system gives you
| its same janky scroll behavior that you get anywhere else
| that isn't a MacBook, for no good reason.
|
| People act like there's some yet-to-be-understood law of
| nature that make MacBook touchpads good and everything
| else bad. This is demonstrably false. We have existence
| proofs to the contrary.
| d0100 wrote:
| Try looking for a laptop that doesn't have the terrible
| chiclet-style keys, it's impossible. Mac included
| mekster wrote:
| It's funny that PC and Android can never reach the
| smoothness of Apple's touch pad and screen scroll when
| it's really the basic thing of computer usage where it
| matters.
|
| Apple did it right 15 years ago and why do others still
| suck at it?
| rStar wrote:
| they don't care. i'd love for someone to defend the idea
| that for all these years, microsoft has really wanted us
| to have first class touchpad experiences on their
| laptops, but they just couldn't figure it out. A problem
| too hard, a bridge too far, an unattainable moonshot for
| however many hundreds of thousands of software engineers
| microsoft has employed over the years. so, once again,
| the reason it's only that good on mac is because no one
| cares in the windows world, from microsoft to their
| developers and ultimately their customers who don't value
| that feature. edit: i spend most of my life in linux but
| I have a mbp for photoshop and capture one. on many
| topics I hate my mac with a cold fury but credit where
| it's due.
| LeifCarrotson wrote:
| I care a lot too - but I care about a lot of other
| features, too, and refuse to buy Apple.
|
| My conclusion was to disable the trackpad and always
| carry an external mouse. I do a lot of CAD work and
| there's nothing that compares to a real mouse for speed
| and precision.
|
| I'll use my Trackpoint nib in a pinch, but the trackpad
| ecosystem is so bad that I just write it off entirely.
| Yeah, keeping a mouse on hand is annoying, but it's like
| a physical keyboard: Would you ever buy a laptop where
| you had to input reams of text with a touchscreen
| keyboard? No, that's absurd, keyboards are a necessary
| part of a computer. Would you ever buy a trackpad for a
| desktop PC? I wouldn't, I'd use a mouse.
| sings wrote:
| Not to dismiss your comment - my partner is an architect
| and also swears by the mouse to navigate in 3D - but I
| got an external trackpad when getting an external
| keyboard (to replace my poorly performing MacBook
| keyboard) and I have preferred the trackpad to a mouse
| for sometime. This is from someone who spends a lot of
| time in design software. I don't think this is uncommon,
| either, although I'm not sure.
| nkrisc wrote:
| That's fair, but on my personal computer when I'm
| lounging on the couch, a mouse isn't going to cut it. I'm
| also talking specifically about laptops. Apple laptops
| have the best trackpad experience _I 've_ ever used. So
| my personal laptops will always be Apple until I find
| something better.
| bitwize wrote:
| Apple users buy Apple trackpads for their desktop. The
| Apple trackpad experience is _better_ than a typical
| mouse, even when it comes to speed and precision.
|
| That's what happens when you're the most successful
| technology company in the world, and you hire the best
| engineers in the world and laser-focus them on thr user
| experience.
| mnsc wrote:
| Am I really that unique in never having used the trackpad
| on a laptop at all, other than a last resort being forced
| to use some weird non-Lenovo thing without a nipple?
|
| Always an external mouse in the backpack and the nipple
| as a fallback.
| dmt0 wrote:
| It's just that you've never had a laptop with a usable
| trackpad. I also carried a mouse when I had a Thinkpad.
| jonnycomputer wrote:
| It is true. Or at least, in my experience, I have no data
| to contradict this.
| KozmoNau7 wrote:
| The best trackpad I've used was on the Tegra K1-based
| Acer Chromebook 13. It had a good size for multi-touch
| gestures and was just really well integrated. Combined
| with a nice low-friction surface and a positive click, I
| still haven't found its equal.
|
| In fact, that line of chromebooks had the best overall
| package. Slim, but very sturdy plastic body, a
| surprisingly good keyboard, ~10 hour battery life. The
| 13" FHD screen was OK, but not amazing, I would have
| liked an IPS panel instead of TN.
|
| The major downside is that it was a 32-bit ARM-based
| chromebook and everyone was going 64-bit x86 instead. So
| it got slower and slower with each successive update,
| eventually it couldn't even play 1080p Youtube videos
| anymore, or even 720p60. Such a shame.
| Something1234 wrote:
| I really don't get what is so special about all of these
| trackpad debates. Honestly if my trackpad can do a 2
| finger scroll I'm happy. Worst trackpad I've used was on
| my x201, and was only terrible because it was tiny and
| insensitive.
| dmt0 wrote:
| It's very simple. Use an MBP for a few months, then
| switch back to another laptop and just see how long you
| last. I never used a trackpad at all until I got an MBP -
| always a mouse. Can't go back to that now. The one on MBP
| feels like a finely tuned instrument that does exactly
| what you mean it to do.
| Toutouxc wrote:
| Would you consider using one of the trackpads you're
| happy with INSTEAD of a mouse? For non-precision work,
| that is. Browsing, navigating an IDE, clicking around the
| OS, stuff like that. In an emergency anything that does a
| two finger scroll and registers a click is okay, but
| would you enjoy using it for eight hours every day? Apple
| will confidently sell you a $5000 desktop machine with
| just their trackpad, because it is that good.
| ForHackernews wrote:
| > Apple will confidently sell you a $5000 desktop machine
| with just their trackpad, because it is that good.
|
| I mean... Apple will also "confidently" sell you four
| little castor wheels for 700 quid[0]. I'm not sure we
| should view their eagerness to take money off you as a
| sign of how great they are.
|
| [0]
| https://www.apple.com/uk/shop/product/MX572ZM/A/apple-
| mac-pr...
| zitterbewegung wrote:
| I think that since they manufacture so many other touch
| devices that the software, data and or expertise in
| designing those devices transfers over into touchpads.
| philistine wrote:
| Apple had the best trackpads in the industry before they
| made the iPhone. That company just values good laptop
| design; after all, they invented it.
| ngc248 wrote:
| They invented what? laptops?
| bitwize wrote:
| They invented good laptop design. Up until 2011, most
| laptops were shitty clones of the PowerBook Duo in terms
| of design. After 2011, most laptops became shitty clones
| of the MacBook Air.
| philistine wrote:
| Yup. The Powerbook 100 series is the first laptop with
| the classic clamshell design we all know.
| pwthornton wrote:
| I honestly don't know how people use PC laptops without
| an external mouse. It's incredible that the trackpads are
| still so bad. Can you spend a ton of money on a PC laptop
| and get a decent one? I have assumed it has been an issue
| with just using cheap parts, and it being hard to get
| people to pay for premium parts on PC laptops.
| aksss wrote:
| They aren't that bad, let's be real. Try the latest XPS
| 13, the trackpad is more than fine. Maybe not Apple
| great, but it's perfectly fine. I could point to earlier
| makes/models that were fine too. It's not going to make
| or break your decision on PC/Mac if you have Apple money
| to spend on a PC.
| boogies wrote:
| I've never understood why people0 care so much about
| trackpads. For working with text (including code)
| keyboards are better, and for gaming mice are better.
| Where I'm less sure is graphics and video, but it seems
| to me like specialized mice, graphics tablets, and other
| tools (eg. https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/davi
| nciresolve/key... and https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/pr
| oducts/davinciresolve/pan...) are better. The only thing
| trackpads seem good at is browsing1, which IMO _should_
| be a slightly glorified text task where Pentadacyl
| /luakit/qutebrowser/etc.2 vi-style keybindings3 are best.
|
| Edits to respond:
|
| My point is that most tasks are either 1 best done in a
| good text editing / development environment that works
| well with a specialized text input device -- a keyboard
| -- or 2 would be better done with a specialized non-
| keyboard, non-trackpad input device (eg. a gaming mouse,
| graphics tablet, etc.)
|
| 0especially here on HN 1including scrolling through PDFs
| and other documents 2or Zathura or less 3and/or/including
| PageUp/Down, Home, and End on luxurious large keyboards.
| Space and Shift+Space are okay on smaller ones.
| oh-4-fucks-sake wrote:
| Agree that efficient development (regardless of
| IDE/editor) is done best using primarily keyboard.
|
| Also agree that detached keyboards and mice will almost
| always be superior to their on-board counterparts.
|
| But, I think we're being a wee bit cognitively dissonant
| if we tell ourselves notebook keyboards and trackpads
| don't receive a non-trivial amount of use--even from the
| best of us.
|
| Even more, why are keyboard and external-mouse purists
| even bothered with even owning a laptop if they
| rarely/ever intend to use the most major distinguishing
| features that separate them from desktops in the first
| place?
|
| But even if you don't agree with any of that, why
| shouldn't we still demand a damn-good version of a
| _highly ubiquitous_ tool, even if we don 't _personally_
| use it _that_ often? (Especially since Apple has proven
| that it 's possible.) On HN (and the rest of the dev
| community) are perhaps the most demanding critics of
| anything technology. "Server starts up 8% slower!--
| dogshit!" "New release consumes 5% more memory--are you
| kidding me!" "Battery lasts 25m shorter--I'm in tears!"
| "The new theme is _highly_ disruptive to my workflow--OH
| THE HUMANITY. "
|
| I'm not being critical of our being sticklers. We should
| be! That's our job! Our fellow devs care about quality;
| our users care about quality. We should care about what
| our users care about. We have the voices and power to
| advocate for good products for all that use technology.
| The trackpad will be a major way people interact with
| computers for a long time to come and I'm not prepared to
| hand-wave away the mediocre.
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| > Trackpad vs keyboard
|
| ?Por que no los dos? Seriously, I wasn't talking about
| replacing my keyboard with a trackpad. They are different
| devices with different purposes and are intended to be
| used together.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| > I've never understood why people care so much about
| trackpads.
|
| Because most people don't use vim and mice aren't usable
| unless you're sitting at a flat surface with the room to
| hold one. If I'm using my laptop on the couch, a trackpad
| is probably the best solution. (Trackpoint gave my index
| finger RSI, when I was was being careful.)
| neilparikh wrote:
| > mice aren't usable unless you're sitting at a flat
| surface with the room to hold one
|
| Trackball mice a good solution to this problem. I had
| work on a bed without a table for 2 weeks last year, and
| a trackball mouse ended up working great (I didn't like
| using the trackpad, since switching from the keyboard to
| trackpad on a laptop is fairly uncomfortable if you do it
| often enough).
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| > _a trackball mouse ended up working great (I didn 't
| like using the trackpad, since switching from the
| keyboard to trackpad on a laptop is fairly uncomfortable_
|
| Switching from the keyboard to something an inch away is
| uncomfortable for you, but switching from the keyboard to
| something a foot away is not? I don't get it.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| The angle on the trackpad can be uncomfortable when it's
| sitting on your lap.
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| I find that the larger trackpads on newer macbooks help
| with this a lot because the upper right corner of the pad
| is easily accessible at exactly the same angle of inward
| rotation by just pulling your elbow back along the side
| of your body. The Apple magic, I guess, is being able to
| have that without constant phantom palm touches.
|
| See https://imgur.com/a/qeRQIFD
|
| An offset trackpad would also work, though obviously
| would be less friendly to lefties.
| wiredfool wrote:
| Trackball mice are thick, and inevitably got schmutz in
| the bearings and got slow. Then you'd have to open them
| up and clean them out.
|
| Trackpads were a great upgrade to laptops when they
| happened, even though at the time, excessive moisture
| screwed up the trackpad, to the point that I needed to
| have a dime handy to put my finger on for a half hour
| after getting out of the shower.
|
| (Source: I've used mac portables since the PB 100,
| including most of the major versions)
| spaetzleesser wrote:
| I had the same opinion until I used a MacBook. The
| trackpad works beautifully, the gestures make sense. It's
| close to perfect. Even while on a docking station at my
| work desk I either the MacBook trackpad or the Magic
| Trackpad.
| reaperducer wrote:
| _my point is that most tasks are either 1 best done in a
| good text editing / development environment_
|
| Your point is only correct if you replace the word "most"
| with "my." The fact that trackpads are hugely popular
| indicates that your needs are not typical, and you should
| not impose your choices upon others with different needs.
|
| _would be better done with a specialized non-keyboard,
| non-trackpad input device_
|
| Show me a better multi-purpose input device that I can
| use to rotate objects on a screen. Or zoom into a
| specific object without affecting other objects on a
| screen. Or configure to have multiple hotspots that when
| tapped can trigger events or macros.
|
| Again, trackpads aren't your thing. Good for you. Other
| people love them, and millions of people get real work
| done on them each day.
| boogies wrote:
| >Your point is only correct if you replace the word
| "most" with "my." The fact that trackpads are hugely
| popular indicates that your needs are not typical, and
| you should not impose your choices upon others with
| different needs.
|
| But Apple trackpads are not hugely popular, they have a
| fraction (~10%, likely less) of the global market. Does
| the fact that non-Apple computers are hugely popular
| indicate that the needs of Apple trackpad fans are not
| typical, and they should not extol their virtues to
| others?
|
| > Show me a better multi-purpose input device that I can
| use to rotate objects on a screen. Or zoom into a
| specific object without affecting other objects on a
| screen. Or configure to have multiple hotspots that when
| tapped can trigger events or macros.
|
| I've previously used a normal Apple mouse and keyboard to
| do all of these things in Adobe Photoshoshop and
| Illustrator on macOS and subsequently a random BestBuy
| mouse and ancient Compaq keyboard to do them in Gimp,
| Inkscape, and Blender on GNU (with xdotool for hot
| corners, which I'm counting as close enough to tapping
| hotspots). A graphics tablet would only work better.
|
| > Again, trackpads aren't your thing. Good for you. Other
| people love them, and millions of people get real work
| done on them each day.
|
| Again, non-Apple trackpads don't seem to be your thing.
| Good for you. The majority of trackpad users use them
| every day.
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| You... you do realize that you can't order a PC laptop
| with a Mac trackpad, right? No one is like, "I could have
| the Mac trackpad for the same cost, but I prefer the
| stuttery trackpad that moves the cursor and selects shit
| when my palm gets too close".
| airbreather wrote:
| but I believe you can buy a bluetooth apple keyboard with
| mousepad built in
| saagarjha wrote:
| For iPad.
| boogies wrote:
| > You... you do realize that you can't order a PC laptop
| with a Mac trackpad, right?
|
| You can as long as you can order x86 Macs with Bootcamp.
|
| > No one is like, "I could have the Mac trackpad for the
| same cost, but I prefer the stuttery trackpad that moves
| the cursor and selects _bleep_ when my palm gets too
| close".
|
| No, but there are plenty of people who think "I prefer no
| trackpad to accidentally swipe [--even if palm rejection
| is perfect, I want total hand --including finger--
| rejection--] at all", from people who buy Macs and use
| the setting Apple provides to disable the trackpad when
| mice are plugged in, to people who use their Mac as a PC
| laptop and manually disable the trackpad
| (https://www.lakshmikanth.com/how-to-disable-trackpad-on-
| boot...), to people who try to more permanently
| disconnect broken old Mac trackpads (https://apple.stacke
| xchange.com/questions/386625/macbook-pro...), to people
| who physically disconnect their trackpads, to people who
| buy old thinkpads because eg. at least some x200s have
| only a trackpoint and fingerprint sensor.
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| It seems like you've moved the goalposts from your
| original claim/implication that non-Mac trackpads are
| more popular to "not everyone likes trackpads". As far as
| I know, no one has argued that everyone likes trackpads?
| boogies wrote:
| My implication was that the fact that many people use
| trackpads doesn't somehow prove that trackpads are a good
| tool (as reaperducer seemed to imply) (despite the fact
| that people can't easily get laptops without them) any
| more than the fact that many people use non-Apple
| trackpads somehow proves that non-Apple trackpads are
| better (despite the fact that many people can't easily
| get laptops they like without them).
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| > _But Apple trackpads are not hugely popular, they have
| a fraction (~10%, likely less) of the global market._
|
| The person you're replying to said "trackpads are
| popular" with no mention of Apple. Your entire argument
| so far has been against trackpads in general. Why shift
| goalposts?
| boogies wrote:
| The comment I was replying to was ~ 2/3 quasi
| _argumentum ad populum_. So I replied to their quasi
| _argumentum ad populum_ with examples of it applied to
| the broader context of the thread, including the comment
| I originally replied to, and replied to their other
| argument with counterpoints both with and without Apple
| hardware.
| likeclockwork wrote:
| Is it even called a "trackpad" outside of Apple machines?
| I'm pretty sure they're called "touchpads" generally. So
| maybe "trackpad" is inherently referent to Apple.
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| > _Is it even called a "trackpad" outside of Apple
| machines?_
|
| Yes.
|
| https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/faqs/laptop-faqs/what-is-a-
| trac...
|
| https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/surface-trackpad-
| settings/...
|
| http://support.blackberry.com/kb/articleDetail?articleNum
| ber...
|
| https://edgeup.asus.com/2019/the-asus-screenpad-2-0-lets-
| the...
|
| https://wikidiff.com/trackpad/touchpad
|
| Trackpad and touchpad are generic synonyms according to
| every source I can find.
| likeclockwork wrote:
| I'm not sure that they actually are. Touchpad was the
| name I always heard for that kind of input, remember
| they're not only used in computers.
|
| I don't have the data but I think this is like the
| motherboard / logic board split. In other words
| "trackpad" may be Apple for "touchpad".
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| > _I don 't have the data but_
|
| I gave you data by showing links where other companies
| like Blackberry, Lenovo, Microsoft, and Asus use the word
| "trackpad" themselves for their own devices. Lenovo even
| cutely capitalizes the P to fit their ThinkPad branding.
| You could also google around and see random people on
| reddit and elsewhere talking about the "trackpads" on
| their dells, hps, vaios, matebooks, and so on.
|
| I'm not saying that "touchpad" isn't more common, but the
| evidence _clearly_ shows that "trackpad" isn't exclusive
| to Apple devices.
| reaperducer wrote:
| _I've previously used a normal Apple Magic mouse and
| keyboard to do all of these things_
|
| If you've used a Magic Mouse, then you've used a mouse
| with a trackpad on its back. Glad you liked it!
|
| And no, rotating in Photoshop with the keyboard isn't the
| same as rotating with a trackpad. It's an entirely
| different process that is significantly less efficient,
| unless you already know the exact angle of rotation you
| want down to the 0.1deg.
| boogies wrote:
| > If you've used a Magic Mouse, then you've used a mouse
| with a trackpad on its back. Glad you liked it!
|
| My mistake. I used a standard Apple mouse
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Mighty_Mouse). I
| used its clickable scroll ball and squeeze functionality
| and suspect I would dislike the Magic mouse.
|
| > And no, rotating in Photoshop with the keyboard isn't
| the same as rotating with a trackpad. It's an entirely
| different process that is significantly less efficient,
| unless you already know the exact angle of rotation you
| want down to the 0.1deg.
|
| IMO the ideal mouse + keyboard rotation style is
| Blender's, which is more efficient in this scenario than
| a trackpad. But I still believe a graphics tablet would
| be objectively superior.
| jaegerpicker wrote:
| Have three graphics tablets, while they are FAR superior
| for art work they are not at all better for rotation. In
| fact I use blender on Mac and regularly use the trackpad
| to zoom and rotate because it's far more precise. Similar
| for 2D drawing, my favorite 2D environment is the iPad
| Pro and Apple Pencil. I still rotate with two finger
| gestures.
| aksss wrote:
| I find the mouse better for zooming (scroll wheel) and
| rotating (click and drag). Second to that, for less
| articulate but quick performance of same task, using the
| touch screen to rotate and drag in the same way you would
| on a track pad but actually interacting with the imagery
| directly. The laptop keyboard and trackpad combo is fine,
| but to me they're merely a convenience until I can get
| back to a "real" keyboard and a mouse. It's not uncommon
| for me to spend hours using the laptop's HIDs directly,
| but I don't think it's very ergo, and definitely not as
| productive as a full desktop setup. External trackpads
| don't sell well for a reason - simply that if you have
| the desk space for one, almost everyone is better served
| by a good quality mouse.
| jessaustin wrote:
| _Show me a better multi-purpose input device that I can
| use to rotate objects on a screen._
|
| The obvious answer to the challenge is a touch _screen_.
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| I actually buy this conclusion for this use case, but in
| fairness the debate was "keyboard vs touchpad". So
| touchscreen > touchpad > keyboard for rotating objects.
| But for other things, having to reach up to the screen
| (e.g., scrolling), is worse than touchpad. With a
| trackpad, I only have to articulate my wrist while my arm
| remains resting on the surface; with a touch screen, I
| have to lift my whole arm and articulate my shoulder and
| elbow if not also my wrist.
| likeclockwork wrote:
| I'm not a touch screen fanatic but I think using your
| whole arm instead of just torquing your wrist all day is
| considered a feature?
|
| Obviously it's not as great if the measure you're looking
| at is "how quickly can I go back to typing?".
| boogies wrote:
| > the debate was "keyboard vs touchpad".
|
| I didn't mean for it to be that exclusively. I tried to
| say that keyboards are the best text input device, but
| gaming mice and controllers are the best gaming input
| device, graphics tablets are the best graphics input
| device, and video editing input devices like the ones I
| linked in my original comment are probably best for video
| editing (while trackpads are at best decent
| scrolling/browsing devices, but IMHO I personally prefer
| keyboard scrolling like in the terminal pager less, the
| PDF and other document viewer Zathura, and vi-inspired
| browsers/browser plugins like luakit, qutebrowser, and
| Pentadactyl).
| SeanLuke wrote:
| > Show me a better multi-purpose input device that I can
| use to rotate objects on a screen. Or zoom into a
| specific object without affecting other objects on a
| screen.
|
| I agree with you in general, but a trackpad is in fact
| really, truly horrible for these tasks. As humans we are
| _designed_ to rotate objects precisely, and that design
| does not involve using two fingers to slide about
| arbitrary locations on a flat plane. It involves grasping
| and rotating with the hand. For rotating and /or zooming,
| a large knob attached to a high-resolution encoder would
| be a million times better.
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| I think you missed the goal of the multi-purpose
| requirement. Proselytizing custom input controls for
| every possible task on a portable device is...weird.
| rzzzt wrote:
| Some dials would be pretty cool on a laptop, though... it
| just makes the lid harder to close.
| mikeryan wrote:
| Ergo the Mac Touchbar.
| flukus wrote:
| Some dials would be good everywhere, I've considered
| buying some expensive keyboards
| (https://www.daskeyboard.com/) purely for a volume
| control knob.
|
| A common complaint around here is about how touch screens
| have taken away better tactile controls, but so have our
| keyboards.
| rzzzt wrote:
| I also liked the dedicated scroll wheel on MS Office-
| themed keyboards. They might have gone overboard with the
| clipboard control buttons, but the wheel felt reasonable.
| jaegerpicker wrote:
| If you haven't looked at them before take a look at 3D
| mice. Commonly used in 3D modeling and CAD drafting they
| are the best at interacting with items in 3D space but I
| wouldn't actually like one for text/flat image
| interaction. Mapping 3D movements to a flat plane is less
| intuitive than it may seem if you haven't done it. Most
| the 3D professionals I know use a touchpad or regular
| mouse for 99% of the non-3D usage.
| breatheoften wrote:
| How about a little sphere or oriented volume that
| magnetically levitates out of its cubby when the device
| is powered on -- and maybe the field could be varied to
| simulate different amounts of resistance ...
| dopu wrote:
| In my day job I'm constantly reading PDFs. Being able to
| zoom in/out, scroll, and move the cursor with such low
| effort can even bring me a little bit of joy. It's not
| really about what is most efficient. Computing should
| feel good. That's why it's hard for me to move away from
| Apple's trackpads.
| boogies wrote:
| > a little bit of joy
|
| is a good description of what I feel reading PDFs
| efficiently, near effortlessly (which to me is near the
| same thing), and comfortably (also similar in that it
| involves minimal reaching, but also includes automatic
| semi-smart dark theming, easy good zooming, etc.) with
| Zathura.
| the_hoser wrote:
| When done right, they're wonderful. When done wrong, you
| end up creating custom keybindings to augment your
| workflow and lug a mouse around when that doesn't cut it.
| I've never seen a PC laptop do it right.
| GuB-42 wrote:
| A friend of mine is a professional photographer, he is
| using his trackpad to process and edit his pictures.
| Hundreds of them per session. And it's not like he can't
| afford a mouse or even specialized hardware.
|
| And having tried Apple touchpads, they are actually good,
| so much that they released a standalone version for
| desktop computers. On every PC I have tried, at best,
| they provide you with a pointing device in case using a
| mouse is impractical. I don't intend to buy a Mac for
| several reason but I have to admit that their trackpads
| are not in the same league.
| sixothree wrote:
| Let me introduce you to the developers whose primary
| machine is a laptop without a mouse. Or a second screen.
| airbreather wrote:
| Ha, no second screen, next you will be telling me you
| made it yourself out of rocks and sand.
| sixothree wrote:
| To be fair, I am not describing myself. I have 4 monitors
| across three machines in my office.
| dingaling wrote:
| We used to have a far better solution for that, the
| pointer stick on Dell and IBM laptops. Direct control
| over the cursor without abrading your sweaty dirty finger
| skin over a frictive surface.
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| > _a far better solution for that, the pointer stick on
| Dell and IBM laptops._
|
| Please search the web for "trackpoint drift".
| hackyhacky wrote:
| This is not a problem on modern ThinkPads.
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| > _This is not a problem on modern ThinkPads._
|
| Funny, because I see people complaining about it still in
| 2020 on brand new Thinkpads. See for instance https://www
| .reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/ken18b/does_your_... and
| the comments saying "They all drift, it's inherent by the
| sensor design", "It drifts on all my ThinkPads too",
| "Mine sometimes drifts".
|
| So unless your definition of modern is "ones that haven't
| been released yet", I think you might be wrong.
| davidy123 wrote:
| I've been a Trackpoint addict for over 20 years, using
| computers 8+ hours a day. I wouldn't consider any other
| pointer method. Trackpoint drift is an issue, but it's
| not really a big problem. A few times a month, it happens
| for a few seconds, then it works itself out. I have had
| episodes of cramping, but they've gone away with no long
| term impact.
|
| It may be that I've become more zen/accepting, because
| I'm sure a mouse or trackpad can be more precise pointing
| tools, but it's worth it for the connection. Input is all
| about the keyboard and mouse, and the proximity just
| makes so much sense, especially when using vim mode. I
| could imagine better systems where typing with a keyboard
| is still the main input, but they would all involve not
| taking my hands off the home row.
| Brakenshire wrote:
| I actually use the touchpad for scrolling even when I'm
| using a mouse. It's a much better interface for that
| purpose.
| medstrom wrote:
| Now I'm picturing a fat tungsten scrollwheel with a lot
| of inertia, that keeps spinning after you roll it.
| meetups323 wrote:
| For general working, trackpad is better. You can type and
| move the mouse without moving your hands.
| dublinben wrote:
| Did you mean a trackpoint? How can you type and move the
| mouse without moving your hands with a trackpad?
| chrisseaton wrote:
| Not sure what you're confused about - your hand can hover
| over the keyboard and trackpad at the same time - they're
| right next to each other. I don't need to move my hands
| to go from one to another?
| losvedir wrote:
| Use your thumbs. The track pad is right below the space
| bar.
|
| Or, it's close enough that with hovering hands you can
| move back and forth between keys without looking. It's
| much faster to navigate a code base that way, I think,
| than trying to jump in vim lines at a time. A smooth,
| continuous scroll at easily controllable, different
| speeds does wonders for keeping continuity of a file in
| mind.
| boogies wrote:
| > easily controllable, different speeds
|
| This is why I like having not just ^f/b full page, {}()
| paragraph and sentence, and of course j/k line scrolling
| but also ^u/d half-page scrolling so much that I mapped
| them it U and D in Zathura and Pentadactyl just for the
| centimeter of finger movement that saves.
| meetups323 wrote:
| The funny thing is (){} are much further from where your
| fingers are at home than the track pad is from your
| thumbs on space.
| boogies wrote:
| {} are approximately as far but they're in the same
| direction that your fingers naturally point. () are
| farther but as words in the languages of vi and vim
| they're a powerful operator that have no mouse equivalent
| (unlike w[ords] and {} paragraphs/lines which have
| double-click and triple-click). Editing the middle of a
| sentence, then deciding to move it to a footnote is IMO
| easier with `<Esc>di(}p` or `<Esc>di(Gp`1 than with `bend
| thumb/wrist backwards / arm up and to the right, drag
| thumb to end of sentence, double-click drag to select one
| word at a time to the other end, release and drag
| sentence down precise number of lines to next paragraph
| or all the way to the end of the document (or how I would
| move the selection, Backspace, PageDown to the end,
| Shift+Insert)"
|
| 1Let me test that. I like digraphs a heck of a lot more
| than scrolling through a symbol list btw. This was also a
| nice use for marks.
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| > _I've never understood why people0 care so much about
| trackpads. ... would be better done with a specialized
| non-keyboard, non-trackpad input device_
|
| So you want a specialized input devices for every task on
| a mobile device. That's an interesting choice. And I
| guess you also want to carry all these specialized
| devices around with you?
|
| > _browsing1, which IMO should be a slightly glorified
| text task where Pentadacyl /luakit/qutebrowser/etc.2 vi-
| style keybindings3 are best_
|
| Ok. Say you see a headline on HN that looks interesting,
| and you go to click on it. Wait, no, you...uhh...tab tab
| tab tab tab over to it and press enter to go to the
| comments page (like we all do) and start reading the
| comments. And, oh look, you want to respond to one of
| them. So you...uhh...tab tab...uhh...tab...tab tab tab
| tab tab tab tab...tab tab? Or you could just point and
| click.
|
| Your proposed critical tasks of shifting the viewport and
| appending text to the current cursor location meet
| approximately 0% of computing user needs. The vast
| majority of all computer interaction is putting the
| cursor in the right place in the first place. The
| keyboard is terrible for that, external devices encumber
| portability, vertical touch screens require significant
| muscle control and effort, and trackpoints drift and do
| fewer things while being worse at all of them.
| boogies wrote:
| > uhh...tab tab tab tab tab
|
| Please take a minute to type the name of any of the
| browsers I named into your favourite search engine or
| package manager and return when you know what we're
| talking about. (This comment was made via Pentadactyl).
|
| > The vast majority of all computer interaction is
| putting the cursor in the right place in the first place.
|
| This is why it pains me to use browsers where I can't tap
| [count]gi to focus input fields.
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| > _This comment was made via Pentadactyl_
|
| Enlighten us all. What exactly did you press and what
| mental decision and awareness process was required to do
| it starting from the front page?
|
| > _[count]gi_
|
| "[count]" sounds like one would need to know how many
| like things on the page precede the thing you're trying
| to get to. Thanks but no thanks. 150! Oops, 100! Oops,
| 130!
| walterlb wrote:
| I am actually (non-sarcastically) interested in the
| answer. I've always wondered if there was a usable
| keyboard only browsing experience out there!
| medstrom wrote:
| "Usable" partly depends on you.
| SpaceNugget wrote:
| You just look at the thing you want to click and press F
| then type the letters that appear on the tag.
|
| EDIT: Here's an extremely low quality screencast of me
| making this comment
|
| https://imgur.com/qpppveP
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| Thanks. This is a much better reply than the OP's. Now
| what do you do for things that don't get tagged?
| SpaceNugget wrote:
| Pretty much everything clickable gets tagged. Buttons,
| text inputs, links, etc. If what you want to click on has
| a word in it, you can press '/' and type the word then
| hit enter to click it so that would probably be what I
| would do if there was ever a missing tag. That's also how
| you can highlight text. This is for vimium at least.
| curtainsforus wrote:
| In Tridactyl, you just push f, which allocates each key
| on the keyboard to a visible link on the screen. So to
| reply to your comment, the keystrokes were
|
| >fu (click 'reply') >ff (select textbox) >ESC (deselect
| textbox) >fg (click 'reply')
|
| and a lot easier- not to mention, less RSI-inducing- than
| mucking around with a mouse, or trackpad, or trackpoint,
| trying to aim a little cursor at a little box multiple
| times in a row.
| boogies wrote:
| f20 selects this discussion (the 20th link), but I used
| f4<Enter> to select threads (the 4th link); j,D, and
| <Space> scroll down by a line, half-screen/page and full-
| screen/page respectively; fr4 selects the correct reply
| (the fourth link whose text begins with r); gi goes to
| the first input field and enters insert mode.
|
| In insert mode I may use the simple mixture of
| emacs/readline and CUA bindings -- like ^w to wipe the
| last word, ^a to go to the beggining of the line and ^e
| to go to the end (eg. when inserting a > before a
| blockquote, then appending my commentary) -- to write a
| straightforward comment from beginning to end, or I may
| use ^i to pop the field open in my $EDITOR (vis), where
| motions like m to mark my place, G to go to the end, o to
| open a new line, and M to return to my mark are useful
| for comments that might be written non-linearly, eg. if
| they have footnotes. I can save and exit vis (if I use
| it) with ZZ, and submit the comment with standard CUA
| <Tab><Enter>.
|
| If I reference any other material then Pentadactyl's
| _browsing_ bindings like go<<character>> to open a
| quickmark, s to search, p or P to paste my X11 primary
| selection as a search term or the url of a current or new
| tab, b to fast-as-you-type search through tabs, y to yank
| the current website, ;y<<number and /or title of link to
| yank>> and d to delete a tab are useful (along with
| standard X11 Shift+Insert to paste the primary selection
| in insert mode).
|
| Ideally though, I _should_ use Pentadactyl only for
| browsing -- for scrolling through and reading web
| documents -- and have a dedicated newsreader that
| understands what posts, comments, etc. are and could make
| this several times more efficient. I'm currently dipping
| my toes in evil-mode emacs, which should enable this.
| I've recently spent less time on HN and more on IRC where
| I do have a dedicated native client that makes things
| orders of magnitude more smooth than trying to use a web
| client in my browser.
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| Now I can't tell if this thread is meant to be satire.
|
| > _f20 selects this discussion (the 20th link) but I used
| f4 <Enter> to select threads (the 4th link)_
|
| So first you have to visually recognize every link in
| between the beginning and what you want to choose and
| then you have to count them all? I hope you don't
| miscount!
|
| > _j,D, and <Space> scroll down by a line, half-
| screen/page and full-screen/page respectively_
|
| How many lines, half-pages, or pages is it from the top
| to here? Just curious.
|
| > _fr4 selects the correct reply (the fourth link whose
| text begins with r);_
|
| So first you have to decide that "starts with r" is a
| good heuristic for getting where you want to go and then
| you have to find all of the links that start with r and
| count them?
|
| > _gi goes to the first input field and enters insert
| mode_
|
| But if it's not the first input field, then you have to
| count them or cycle through them?
|
| > _Ideally though, I should have a dedicated newsreader
| that understands what posts, comments, etc. are_
|
| So now you want a special bespoke reader for every
| website?
|
| Oh yes this all sounds so much easier than just pointing
| at the thing you want! Thank you for clarifying.
| boogies wrote:
| I believe every single statement in your comment is
| factually false. The only one I don't feel objectively
| certain of is this:
|
| > Just curious.
|
| But I sincerely doubt it's true based on the tone of your
| comment. I'm willing to walk through each sentence with
| you, but as I have already sunk significant time into
| trying to help you I politely request that you first
| prove my doubt unfounded by investing five minutes in
| grabbing luakit, qutebrowser, or Pentadactyl -- or at the
| very least a WebExtension attempt at emulating them like
| SurfingKeys -- with your favorite package manager/browser
| and trying it out for yourself.
|
| Edit: However I will walk through the sentences for the
| sake of the other people reading this thread in better
| faith, to respond to the strongest [weakly] plausible
| interpretation of your comment, although text is a worse
| medium for learning GUIs than video which is worse than
| first hand interactive use.
|
| > So first you have to visually recognize every link in
| between the beginning and what you want to choose and
| then you have to count them all? I hope you don't
| miscount!
|
| No, the browser automatically highlights them in a style
| of your choice (I use a gruvbox theme) and visually
| numbers them for you. You can also just begin typing any
| part of the link's title and it will be selected when
| you've typed a subset unique to it.
|
| > How many lines, half-pages, or pages is it from the top
| to here? Just curious.
|
| ~3 out of 4 screens on my threads right now. But note
| that I scrolled down one piece at a time and only know
| this because my bottom status bar happens to display it
| (as well as the url, mode, a minus or plus signifying
| pages back or forward in the tab's history, on a
| background that signifies the SSL status of the site).
|
| > So first you have to decide that "starts with r" is a
| good heuristic for getting where you want to go and then
| you have to find all of the links that start with r and
| count them?
|
| No, you don't need to use a heuristic but it saves
| reaching your left hand to the number row to eliminate
| half a dozen links by typing fr instead of just typing
| f10.
|
| > But if it's not the first input field, then you have to
| count them or cycle through them?
|
| No, you can use ;i to select fields the same way you
| select links, but it hasn't taken me the months I've been
| using HN to notice all top-level discussion pages have
| exactly 2 input fields: one to add a top-level comment
| and one for the Algolia search (gi or 2gi will instantly
| teleport you to and insert you cursor in the first or
| second one respectively).
|
| > So now you want a special bespoke reader for every
| website?
|
| No, I want a native client for each type of software: a
| browser for browsing (exploring and reading) web
| documents, a news reader for news, an IRC client for
| internet real-time chat, a mail client for mail, a media
| player for playing media (I copy links and use a sxhkd
| binding to open them in MPV --
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24509028), etc.
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| > _The browser automatically highlights them_
|
| What do you do when the browser doesn't highlight
| something interactive?
|
| What do you do for, as one person on the web calls it,
| "fancy javascript shit"? What if you want to draw an
| iceberg to see how it would float?
| allarm wrote:
| In these cases you use your mouse or whatever, obviously.
| What's your point?
|
| I have been using a similar plugin for years and on a
| very rare occasion I'm using my touchpad to do something
| as you described.
| allarm wrote:
| I'm using a different plugin (I think it's vimkeys) which
| is also great. I wanted to give the pentadactyl a try,
| but it looks like it's discontinued- the latest release
| was in 2014. Am I looking in a wrong place?
|
| http://bug.5digits.org/pentadactyl/
| boogies wrote:
| https://github.com/pentadactyl/pentadactyl
|
| The development1 has been continued by the community
| after Firefox removed support for XUL extensions.
|
| 1Well, tbh basic maintenance is a more accurate term --
| the updates have been minor, and the patch that enables
| it in the latest version of Palemoon hasn't been pushed
| to the addon store yet, you have to clone from master at
| the moment.
| walterlb wrote:
| I've been trying out Tridactyl, and like it so far. I
| believe it's similar to Pentadactyl, though maybe missing
| some features.
|
| https://github.com/tridactyl/tridactyl
| PhasmaFelis wrote:
| > I've never understood why people0 care so much about
| trackpads.
|
| Because it's nice to be able to use my laptop without
| having to find a tabletop and dig out my mouse. In bed,
| on the couch, on a bus, as a passenger in a car.
|
| Smartphones have taken over a lot of those situations,
| but a small laptop is still much better for a lot of
| tasks. I don't use Macs anymore, but their touchpads are
| actually as precise as a good mouse, and it just feels
| really nice.
|
| Same thing with knobs and graphics tablets, though it's
| not a use case I have personally. A dedicated peripheral
| is probably more powerful and precise, but sometimes it's
| nice to use your laptop _from your lap._
| mottosso wrote:
| I felt that way until I got my hands on a Surface Book.
| They did a good job on that one, still holding up after
| 4+ years of constant use.
| fortran77 wrote:
| I'm using a Surface Book 2 right now, and it's -- by far
| -- the best laptop I've ever owned.
| Groxx wrote:
| Yeah, the surface line seems to have quite-acceptable
| trackpads. I have an SP4, and the keyboard-cover's is...
| a bit strange to the touch (highly textured), but works
| reliably.
|
| Unlike so many other brands. The _vast_ majority I 've
| used have been an endless stream of frustration and
| flakiness.
| ImaCake wrote:
| I have an SP4 as well and enjoyed the touchpad on it. I
| don't think it is as good as the macbook one, but the
| surface makes up for this with the touch screen. I would
| often mix it up between screen and touchpad touches to
| navigate and I miss it now I am using a macbook.
| [deleted]
| Groxx wrote:
| Yea, I'm not actually all that fond of the SP4, but it
| has utterly convinced me that touchpad + touchscreen is
| _massively_ superior to either one alone. It 's so
| natural feeling.
| RileyJames wrote:
| Definitely felt the same way moving from MacBook Air to
| XPS (under linux), but eventually I found the right
| settings to completely remove accidental touches on the
| pad while typing and since then, pretty good, not bad,
| can't complain. Cause actually, all them track pads are
| about the same.
| getcrunk wrote:
| Have you used an xps? I really like my trackpad. Haven't
| use apple's
| cam-perry wrote:
| I have both laptops and both touchpads are really nice.
| Though Apple's is nicer for being bigger and I prefer
| their materials to the XPS.
|
| If you run linux on the XPS this project
| (https://github.com/iberianpig/fusuma) is great for
| configuring multi-touch gestures that work like the Mac.
| taneq wrote:
| I've used both (albeit the Mac was a 2010 Macbook Pro so
| they may have changed - the Dell is a 2019 XPS13 and is
| my current travel laptop) and I'd rate them roughly on
| par. The Macbook had slightly better accidental touch
| rejection iirc (eg. if you brush the touchpad while
| reaching for the keys to type) and slightly nicer build
| quality. The XPS is really nice though.
| syspec wrote:
| Have you used an Apple? Really like my trackpad. Haven't
| used XPS
| mnahkies wrote:
| Use the keyboard predominantly instead of the trackpad
| and problem mitigated ;)
|
| I've been using Linux exclusively on ~5 different laptops
| of varying quality the last few years and I haven't been
| able to relate to the frequent comments about trackpad
| support being poor - not sure if it's just I don't use it
| that much, or don't realize what I'm missing since I
| haven't used a modern macbook.
|
| My biggest gripe applies to all laptops and that's the
| insufficient ram offered on most models - IMO 16gb should
| be the baseline, and 32gb approaching normal with the
| demands of current software (yes software could be more
| efficient but this isn't the reality we find ourselves
| in)
| frant-hartm wrote:
| >don't realize what I'm missing since I haven't used a
| modern macbook
|
| That's what I thought as well, but every time I try to
| use my colleagues Mac it's a struggle, movement speed is
| really weird as it's not linear, tapping doesn't behave
| as one would expect (never had a problem with Linux or
| even windows with that). The whole thing is a weird
| button which presses when I don't want to.
|
| True, I have used it maybe for 10 mins in total in.my
| life, so that's probably the main issue (I hope for the
| sake of the people who actually use it).
|
| On the other hand I have seen long time users and it
| makes me cringe. What a pain, learn some shortcuts and
| use it for random text selection only.
| taneq wrote:
| Doesn't every computer have an acceleration setting for
| mouse speed, on touchpad and physical mouse?
|
| Conflating novice users with mac users seems a bit
| unreasonable, especially given how many people have used
| both at various times.
| wtallis wrote:
| > movement speed is really weird as it's not linear,
|
| It really _shouldn 't_ be linear. That would force you to
| make unnecessary tradeoffs between precision and the
| ability to get the cursor from one side of the screen to
| the other in just one or two swipes.
|
| > tapping doesn't behave as one would expect (never had a
| problem with Linux or even windows with that). The whole
| thing is a weird button which presses when I don't want
| to.
|
| Tap to click is an option that can be toggled on and off,
| on every trackpad I've ever used. Additionally, Apple
| trackpads since 2015 let you adjust in software the
| amount of force required for a press on the trackpad to
| register as a click.
|
| > What a pain, learn some shortcuts and use it for random
| text selection only.
|
| I can just as easily turn this around: configure and
| learn a few multi-touch gestures and you won't have to
| keep moving your hand off the trackpad to perform
| keyboard shortcuts.
| Brakenshire wrote:
| Looks like there's some good progress for touchpad
| support on Linux:
|
| https://bill.harding.blog/2021/02/11/linux-touchpad-like-
| a-m...
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26102894
|
| Many millions of people will benefit, but the project
| only has 129 supporters, if anyone wants to chip in!
| the_hoser wrote:
| The sad part is that it's not _just_ a hardware problem.
| While most PC laptops have really terrible trackpad
| hardware, some _do_ have pretty decent hardware. It 's
| just that the software is still absolutely terrible. You
| can run Linux on a relatively modern Macbook, and the
| trackpad becomes terrible.
| zerocrates wrote:
| I feel like the XPS 13 trackpad is fine, what's your beef
| with it?
| bscphil wrote:
| XPS trackpads have always been number one, from the very
| beginning. I'm working with a 10 year old laptop and its
| trackpad has performed flawlessly and is superior to any
| MacBook I've ever used (but especially older ones).
|
| My XPS has the advantage of two physical buttons for left
| and right click. They require just the right amount of
| force to press (like a slightly softer mouse button with
| deeper travel). It makes dragging things around (which I
| do a lot because I don't use a tiling window manager)
| very easy. Which doesn't feel like something I should
| have to comment on, but doing this on a MacBook is _pure
| suffering_. Trying to hold down the giant button (which
| takes quite a bit of force) _while_ trying to drag your
| finger... ugh. It 's miserable. Because of the physical
| buttons I can actually play some games on my XPS without
| needing an external mouse (or putting up with misclicks)
|
| In terms of hardware, what people are looking for is
| mostly surface feel, size, features. It's the former
| where cheap laptops fall down. Most of the ones I've used
| really suck, actually. Some of them are bad enough that
| the manufacturers actually _texture_ the surface to try
| to slow your finger down, I guess because the accuracy of
| the touchpad isn 't very good. High end touchpads like
| the one on the XPS or MacBooks have flawless feel:
| extremely low friction surfaces.
|
| It's not commonly noticed, but software contributes at
| least as much to how a trackpad feels as hardware. Given
| the limitations of its hardware, I have no quarrel with
| Apple's software quality. (Though the defaults are weird,
| like not being able to tap-to-click. They really want you
| to have to use that damn button.)
|
| Windows has historically sucked at this. I've seen about
| half a dozen trackpads that seemed absolutely terrible,
| and no Windows settings could make them better. After
| moving them over to Linux (on the synaptics driver) they
| suddenly became quite okay to use, even if the hardware
| was crappy. I'm afraid this era might be ending, sadly.
| I've had nothing but bad experiences with libinput. It
| lacks the kind of configurability you need to improve on
| the performance of a bad touchpad. (It's even quite bad
| under Wayland for the XPS touchpad - you can't set the
| combination of low speed, high acceleration that feels
| natural to me for this touchpad.)
| zimpenfish wrote:
| > Trying to hold down the giant button (which takes quite
| a bit of force) while trying to drag your finger... ugh.
| It's miserable.
|
| Not wishing to detract from your personal experience but
| "quite a bit of force" is at odds to mine - on this M1
| MBP, it takes less force to activate the trackpad click
| than it does to activate a keypress. And once you've
| clicked, you can use a second figure to drag; no need to
| try and drag with the force finger (I use my thumb to
| click for power*, then index to drag for accuracy.)
| breatheoften wrote:
| Another comment regarding the click and drag behavior.
|
| One thing I would definitely expect a recent migrant to
| apple trackpads to experience as negative would be "force
| click". The apple trackpads sense force in some analogue
| way and if you push hard enough you can activate another
| action called force click. It's ridiculously easy to
| activate on accident when holding click while dragging --
| but this "feature" can be turned off (and probably should
| be for most people I'd wager).
|
| I've never tried using the middle finger for dragging --
| seems awkward but i'll give it a try ... won't that
| activate the two finger drag operation?
| zimpenfish wrote:
| > won't that activate the two finger drag operation?
|
| No, because you've clicked which makes it a different
| operation than just two fingers scrolling or zooming.
| bscphil wrote:
| Yes, your point is entirely fair. I should have clarified
| that I was talking about an older (mid decade) MacBook
| Pro. It requires enough force that, with my arm just
| positioned normally, I can actually feel the torque
| applied down the whole of my forearm.
|
| My understanding is that Apple has made the clicks much
| lighter in their later models - along with doing the
| exact same thing with the keyboard keys, which for me
| goes much to far in the other direction.
| charrondev wrote:
| The latest iterations as I understand are like this:
|
| - keyboards were reverted similar to how they were around
| 2015. - all the new trackpads are don't require a
| physical actuation to activate. You can apply the same
| amount of minimal pressure anywhere on the trackpad and
| it "presses back" at you to simulate a physical click.
| It's quite convincing.
| fomine3 wrote:
| Force touch is useful feature last missing on other PCs.
| easton wrote:
| On 2015 or later MacBooks, you can adjust the force
| required for a click: https://support.apple.com/en-
| us/HT204352 ("Adjust trackpad settings")
| bscphil wrote:
| This is software adjustable? That's very impressive
| engineering. Unfortunately this a 2014 MBP.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| AFAIK the button doesn't actually move, it's like the
| home button on some older iPhones (like the 7). It
| detects the pressure and has a haptic feedback to make it
| feel like a button. If you look at a powered off iphone
| 7, the button is just an indent on the otherwise fixed
| glass panel.
| lloeki wrote:
| Exactly. The most impressive part is that it really feels
| like a click, down to the illusion it's moving down (but
| it's not, at all). When powering off (or there's a
| crash), the feeling of it being immovable is surreal.
| Plus the surface is suddenly responding evenly (the
| clicking ones had a hinged design, so it became
| increasingly hard to click upwards the surface)
|
| One can leverage the haptic feedback to make the TouchBar
| a bit more lively[0]. The illusion breaks a bit since the
| haptic device is farther away from the touch surface but
| it's still quite a transformative experience for the TB.
|
| [0]: https://github.com/niw/HapticKey
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| As you say, the default mac os touchpad settings are
| somewhat strange to me.
|
| But the touchpad can be configured for the bottom side of
| the touchpad to function as buttons: if you touch it
| directly, it won't register as mouse movement. If you
| press on the left, it's a left button, right is a right
| button. So while not actual physical buttons, it's pretty
| damn close. I don't actually use this so not sure houw
| this would work out in practice for your needs.
|
| Regarding the dragging situation, there's another setting
| that's now been buried in "Accessibility" for some
| reason, but that was present in the touchpad settings
| before: "drag hold".
|
| This allows you to lift the finger from the touchpad for
| a brief period while dragging _without stopping the
| dragging_. This, to me, is the pinnacle of touchpad
| experience. You can start dragging wherever you want on
| the pad and go as far as you like, you never run out of
| space.
|
| There's also a similar option that some people like:
| three-finger drag. It works like scrolling, except that
| if you use three fingers it starts dragging.
| arsome wrote:
| Yeah, I'm not sure about any of this, I grew up with PC
| trackpads, used them on Linux all the time and other than
| a few annoyances with accidentally tripping the trackpad
| when typing, never had a problem with them. The Macbook
| actually took quite a bit of time to get used to and many
| settings had to be adjusted (looking at you backwards
| scrolling).
|
| In fact, I think I like the trackpad on my cheap Logitech
| K400 just as much as the Macbook, I'd be hard pressed to
| point to a significant problem with either.
| ryukafalz wrote:
| Do you use gestures at all? I have both a MacBook Pro
| (for work) and a Logitech K400+. Two-finger scrolling on
| the MBP is fine; light pressure on the touchpad is enough
| to scroll very smoothly. Two-finger scrolling on my X230
| is also fine, if a bit jumpy - I can at least keep my
| place while I'm scrolling, and it still takes only light
| pressure to recognize the gesture.
|
| Two-finger scrolling on the K400+ is painful. (Actually
| physically painful; I have RSI in my right arm and
| poorly-tracking touchpads can be a trigger.) It requires
| fairly heavy pressure on the touchpad to trigger gestures
| consistently (though they can be triggered
| _inconsistently_ with light pressure which is also
| frustrating). And especially on macOS, it 's difficult to
| actually scroll a consistent distance with a two-finger
| gesture with the K400+.
|
| I'm fairly certain this has to do with the K400+'s
| touchpad not being recognized as a touchpad by the OS.
| The device is instead emitting mouse wheel events in
| firmware when a two-finger scroll gesture is detected.
| macOS will then, of course, apply mouse wheel
| acceleration, which makes sense for some mice but
| absolutely does not make sense for a touchpad.
| kibwen wrote:
| In terms of hardware, IMO my XPS 15's trackpad is
| superior to my MacBook Pro's trackpad. The gesture
| support from the OS obviously isn't as good, but the XPS
| sure does feel better to use.
| indymike wrote:
| Honestly, my xps is the only laptop that comes close to
| my macbooks... Yo be fair, the touch screen and pen on
| the XPS blow away the ones on the Macbook.
| MariaOat77 wrote:
| Looking for hook ur with a stgangeg! Ready for any
| expegiments! - http://xkiss.nettekks.com
| jameshart wrote:
| This does not look like a pathway to reduce the cost of
| your laptop by throwing out junk you don't need. This looks
| like every part will be more expensive due to the focus on
| sustainable materials, e-waste and modularization. If
| you're price-focused, are you really willing to pay a
| premium for ethical sourcing and repairability on the
| subset of components you want to populate your laptop with?
| Jeff_Brown wrote:
| The upgradeability could mean you save money in the long
| term even if each piece is substantially more expensive
| than its dispoable counterpart.
|
| Of course, asking people to trust that long-term calculus
| for a new product from a new company is nontrivial.
| bscphil wrote:
| Hmm, not that it's "something you don't need", per se, but
|
| > 4TB or more of Gen4 NVMe storage
|
| Suggests to me that this will be targeted at the "money is
| no object" market. (And it might still be something you
| don't need, I keep all my media on a server, so 1TB would
| be more than sufficient, thank you very much.)
| Alupis wrote:
| Any chance of one that doesn't look like a Macbook clone?
|
| I, personally, am tired of the brushed aluminum with black
| bezels and keyboard look. The materials can remain the same,
| but some colored options would be wonderful - like the HP
| Spectre x360's with blue and black options, etc.
|
| Everything else looks wonderful, particularly the mobo
| upgrades for newer CPU/GPU combinations... and even better -
| getting to choose the ports I need! Love that!
| sudosteph wrote:
| +1 to this, except I would like a plastic alternative to
| the aluminum in the case as well.
|
| While it's commendable that framework is picking those
| materials to environmentally conscious - I have had such
| terrible past experiences with "aluminum" body laptops
| triggering eczema outbreaks[1] - that I avoid metal cases
| as a rule now.
|
| [1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/291384767_Alle
| rgy_r... TLDR: many metallic cases have nickel or cobalt
| present, and it releases when you sweat. Sometimes this
| triggers contact dermatitis (eczema) if you're sensitized
| to it.
| pedalpete wrote:
| Wouldn't a case or skin be a better solution to this than
| a plastic housing?
| sudosteph wrote:
| I always worry about ventilation with cases, though that
| may unwarranted depending on the particular case / skin.
| I was cheap (and not sure if the laptop was my root issue
| at the time), so I ended up putting duct tape over the
| area my wrists touched, and that helped a lot. It looked
| pretty silly though.
|
| That said, when I had the option to get a laptop where I
| wouldn't have to think about it at all (plastic cased
| thinkpad), I jumped for it. Maybe I've just developed a
| deep-seated, emotional resentment for metal bodied
| laptops in general after spending so long dealing with
| itchy/oozy hands, wrists and forearms. Also all the
| doctors who just prescribed steroid creams and blamed
| stress...
| pedalpete wrote:
| Yeah, I get it. I think plastic cases are going to be a
| tough sell for a company looking to be environmentally
| friendly. :)
|
| You're also not in the majority, but as I stated, I'd
| prefer a non-metal looking laptop. I've got a Razer Blade
| Stealth 13 which I had to put a skin on because it's a
| fingerprint magnet. Skins really aren't that bad, and
| they're designed to not block the vents.
| Alupis wrote:
| Unless you just want to put a skin on your laptop, this
| feels like the whole "Rubber Band Antenna-gate" thing
| from Apple years back. The device should work as-is
| without some extra covering being required.
|
| Not everyone has skin allergies, but if you are mass
| producing devices that will be in close contact with skin
| for long durations, made with metals that are well known
| to cause skin irritation - sooner or later you're going
| to run into people that are affected.
| sudosteph wrote:
| Additionally, due to the way that the allergic
| sensitization process happens - many people only develop
| a reaction after frequent, long-term exposure. So it's
| very possible to use a metal laptop without experiencing
| an issue for a long period of time, and then to develop
| problems down the road. This, along with the allergens
| sometimes being from contaminants in the metals (so not
| listed and somewhat variable) - makes it very hard to
| predict and to identify afterward.
|
| So while I'm "rare", in that I know I've got an allergy
| with a very noticeable reaction that can be triggered by
| laptops - many people don't know that they are at risk of
| developing it, even though they are. Or maybe they know
| they have a nickel sensitivity (this issue is very common
| with people who wear cheap jewelry) - but they don't know
| a laptop can trigger it.
|
| Unless there's a big push to do some sort of widespread
| contaminant testing on laptops, I imagine this issue will
| grow if metal-body laptops continue to be the norm.
| AceJohnny2 wrote:
| Thanks to Apple, there's probably a solid "aluminium case"
| manufacturing pipeline that Framework might be able to
| leverage. That's a wild guess though, I can imagine Apple
| keeping that tightly under their thumbs.
|
| Extra colors add cost. You have to plan for which colors
| might be popular, and which won't, in which case you'd have
| to sell at a discount to get rid of inventory. I'd be
| surprised if Framework offered that out of the gate.
| Judgmentality wrote:
| > Thanks to Apple, there's probably a solid "aluminium
| case" manufacturing pipeline that Framework might be able
| to leverage.
|
| Apple literally has buildings filled with thousands of
| CNC machines milling aluminum laptop cases.
|
| Apple does not manufacture things the same way as the
| rest of the industry, as they have the money and the
| scale to do whatever the fuck they want.
|
| https://beneinstein.medium.com/no-you-cant-manufacture-
| that-...
| Waterluvian wrote:
| And it shows. I've never had an aluminum laptop feel like
| a macbook chassis. There's just something about the
| thickness? Rigidity?
| airbreather wrote:
| I have Xaiomi mac like clone that was less than half the
| price for same specs and the body is totally ridged
| aluminum.
| hedora wrote:
| I'll take one in all black, with a matte display; will
| definitely pay extra for oled with insanely good black
| levels. :-)
| reaperducer wrote:
| _Any chance of one that doesn 't look like a Macbook
| clone?_
|
| If it came in certain tasteful colors, that would get my
| wife to switch from Apple to Linux. (She works in the
| fashion industry.)
| pbronez wrote:
| The website says the main bezel is magnetic, and can be
| replaced with various colors. Probably have to wait for
| future revisions before they do crazier designs... cloning
| Apple is a way to message the quality / price point they're
| shooting for.
| JustSomeNobody wrote:
| Good luck! I really hope this works out. So excited.
| sydd wrote:
| I really like the concept, congrats on making it a product!
|
| For me I have 3 concerns: 1. I'd never use a 13" laptop it's
| too small for work for me. Any chance of a 15" version? It'd
| be also cool if it could be used to light gaming (e.g. an
| Nvidia 1650 included)
|
| 2. Pricing. If this will be priced as Macbook pros you will
| have a very niche segment as customers (basically silicon
| valley tech people)
|
| 3. As I'm in the EU shipping needs to have a sane price (I
| can understand if this is not the priority at the start)
| hansel_der wrote:
| all valid concerns i would add my voice to allthou i'd say
| 14" screen is the sweetspot between portable and watching
| movies
| k_sze wrote:
| I can't stand small screens, so here's me hoping you'll make
| a 15" or 16" model with 4K screen soon after this one.
|
| Also looking forward to AMD or ARM instead of Intel.
| fock wrote:
| so compared to a run-of-the-mill Lenovo/HP/Dell - where I
| still can get all parts 5 years after buying it - the
| innovation is that you have decoupled the I/O ports with your
| modules, which might reduce wear and failure there. Given
| that swapping the mainboard will probably just be as
| expensive for you as for the aforementioned devices (where
| some by Fujitsu even had standardized mainboards ;)) + you
| probably command a significant premium in the beginning: I
| really don't get the value/eco proposition except for reusing
| the frame/Display (the latter of which will eventually break
| as well). Do you at least plan to release schematics so
| people can try to understand failure modes of the actual
| things most of us without extensive resources can't repair
| today?
|
| ~ typed on a Lenovo T440s (4GB soldered RAM unfortunately):
| swapped the touchpad for the one from the 450s, replaced the
| fan, after it made noises, started with a tiny m.2-SATA, then
| upgraded to a spare SATA from the Desktop, updated the screen
| after it broke. Now the bottom shell has a dent in it (full
| backpack) but I think I'll let it pass. Still seems pretty
| repairable to me.
| samstave wrote:
| Just an anecdote on the value of modular and repairable
| hardware:
|
| Compaq vs Sun:
|
| I was the IT Director for Decide.com in ~1998-ish and we had
| a bunch of compaq servers and a bunch of SUN servers...
|
| At the time - SUN was *giving* servers to startups to adopt
| their HW.
|
| I had to build out a ton of systems in various DCs and the
| SUN machines were not rack-mountable, but were like $50,000 a
| unit... and they had this *security* feature where-by the
| machine would not boot up if the external case was not
| properly put on...
|
| BUT - I could rebuild a compaq server in the dark with my
| eyes closed. I had a compaq engineer who was delivering a
| replacement server and watched me rebuild that machine in no
| time.
|
| The thing was that the engineering of the compaqs was so
| consistent and well done that it took single digit minutes to
| rebuild an entire 4U machine vs the behemoth SUNS that
| bitched when their cover wasn't properly sealed.
| durst wrote:
| Very cool! Did others in the company appreciate the
| benefits of repairable hardware?
|
| Also, $50,000 sounds like a lot of money. Was that price
| considered giving it away?
| hedora wrote:
| First one's free.
|
| Edit: in hindsight it was a terrible marketing strategy.
| It meant that 100% of new customers had budget left over
| to spend on risky whitebox machines.
|
| I have fond memories of an AMD Linux cluster that ran
| circles around a Sun workstation. The workstation cost
| 10x more than the entire cluster.
| samstave wrote:
| >>* _Also, $50,000 sounds like a lot of money. *_
|
| OMG do you want to hear war stories about SGI?
|
| Turning SGI machines into keg-or-atores at Lucasfilm when
| consolodatiting to the presidio when all these Octanes
| and others were at ILM in Marin?
|
| Yeah - many a machine was turned into a bar...
|
| Heck the team building exercises at FB were to "build a
| bar for your team..."
| durst wrote:
| The closest I came to an SGI machine was an N64, so I
| would be interested in hearing the stories. What did
| consolidating the SGI boards get you? Didn't that cause
| thermal issues?
|
| Are Presidio and "the death star" you referenced above
| related to RenderMan? I've done research on hardware for
| image processing (https://aetherling.org/), so it's
| interesting to hear about these systems.
| reaperducer wrote:
| _$50,000 sounds like a lot of money_
|
| For a server in the 90's, it sounds pretty cheap to me.
|
| Apple's Xserves started at $3,000, and I've read they
| were considered underpowered. Sun was a premium company
| for heavy lifting.
|
| The company I worked for at the time was into Silicon
| Graphics, and those machines were five figures a pop just
| for desktops.
| samstave wrote:
| Dud, when I rebuilt Lucas Films into the presidio (I was
| one of the tech designers on that project) - they had so
| many SGI systems... they built Keg-arrators out of
| $150,000 machines in moving.
|
| One small note on SGI - the 02 had a "feature' that cost
| you ~$2500 extra for access to a particular port - can
| recall if it was USB or Serial or what not, but you had
| to pay for this port...
|
| But this port was just blocked by a plastic cover - EVERY
| machine had this port/ but they were covered by a plastic
| cover.
|
| The $FEE that you paid was to simply have SGI remove the
| plastic cover on top of the port.
|
| The 02 was an extremely over priced piece of shit and the
| only reason it existed was to have Softimage and Maya run
| on MIPS
| PascLeRasc wrote:
| Was it analog video? I worked with a guy who loved SGI
| systems and still had some back in 2016 and he said they
| made analog video an option, but it was the same A/V add-
| on card as analog audio so they just glued plastic caps
| over the video ports if you didn't opt for it.
| samstave wrote:
| Lucas was the inventor of "offline video editing" --
| which became a spin-off company called Avid.
|
| Avid was later based in seattle - but it was based on
| tech that LucasFilm invented - as was CG rendering called
| "the death star" which Steve Jobs bought from George for
| $10,000,000 and turned it into pixar.
|
| George didnt think that CGI was going to be profitable,
| hence selling to Jobs.
|
| Source: on the Presidio design team, I designed a
| majority of their data center in that facility - and had
| designed a cable interconnect matrix with the design
| requirement that any given workstation in the four-
| building facility could be made a render node when the
| engineer was not at desk (so at night)
|
| Lots of crazy experiences from that --
|
| 1. being asked why I couldnt provide power over fiber
|
| 2. Being asked if I could design a facility in Singapore
| because paying "us Prima donnas" was too expensive when
| they could pay asian animators far less for the same work
|
| 3. Having see them in-bed with Force 10 networks
|
| 4. Seeing all their equipment stolen from the parking
| garage after delivery but before installation into the
| data-center by some construction guy
|
| 5. Them turning down my initial datacenter design which
| made it look like the inside of the death star. Telling
| me they hated it.
|
| 6. Watching the power struggle as the then CFO took
| control of the empire as Lucas stepped away.
|
| 7. Watching the distaste of all the employees as Lucas
| sold for four billion dollars to disney, but his
| accomplished and skilled staff got basically nothing
| because they didnt own stock in the company they built
| for lucas.
|
| Yeah - fuck george lucas.
| Igelau wrote:
| > it's going to take a full Ars Technica teardown before we're
| completely convinced.
|
| Read: please send us a free one
| 40four wrote:
| With all do respect, but who gives a sh*t what Ars Technica
| thinks in regards to this?
|
| This project looks unbelievable! I am super excited for this,
| as many many others are too obviously. I'll be honest I'm not
| even going to click on the Ars Technical article, their opinion
| couldn't be less interesting to me.
|
| No doubt this company still has a lot to prove. Can they put
| their money where their mouth is? Remains to be seen.
|
| But the fact that there is a _real_ company out there, making
| an attempt to build a product like this makes me so happy.
| 0xbadcafebee wrote:
| > The company's team also includes design, engineering, and
| operations people hailing from Apple, Google, and Lenovo.
|
| They should avoid the appeal to authority fallacy. Those
| companies hire tens of thousands of people each. Statistically
| speaking, half of them could be idiots. Just because I worked
| at Cisco doesn't mean I'm some product genius. (Hell, I came
| from an acquisition!)
| SnowProblem wrote:
| I went with a Thinkpad over a Macbook a couple years ago
| exactly for these goals - repairability and modularity - so
| this looks pretty amazing to me. Especially the modular ports.
| That said, the lack of a discrete GPU makes this a no-go for
| what I do. Does anyone know if a dGPU is planned, and also any
| pricing?
| GordonS wrote:
| The XPS 13 was the first thing I thought of when I saw this - a
| repairable, upgradable, expandable XPS 13.
|
| What they are promising sounds _awesome_. And AS a Brit, that
| is not a word I use often :)
|
| I really, really hope this pans out, and this summer - this is
| something I'd very much like to get my hands on!
| thewalkingbeard wrote:
| Why are these interesting niche laptops always so small?
| VoidWhisperer wrote:
| Any chance of thunderbolt 3 support? If the module port adapters
| are just (port) to usb-c on the inside then this seems unlikely
| knz_ wrote:
| As cool as this is, it's a DOA product with no real market
| outside super savvy consumers. Uninformed consumers already buy
| the cheapest laptops they can find on Amazon or in the store.
|
| If repairability is super important to someone, what incentive is
| there to buy this over a used thinkpad? You can get skylake
| thinkpads for less than $200 on ebay - replacement batteries and
| displays cost less than $100.
| eightails wrote:
| I really hope you're wrong and this device achieves success,
| but you may well be right honestly.
|
| I suspect they'll have to charge premium prices, but that might
| be justifiable even considering the availability of cheap
| Thinkpads.
|
| As good as $200 Thinkpads are, they are old devices, with dim,
| low res screens, old processors, poor battery life, relatively
| thick and heavy chassis, old ports, old wifi/bluetooth etc.
| Again, perfectly functional for many people, but I think there
| are legitimate reasons to want a newer device.
|
| Maybe there's enough of a niche market there, who knows.
| wegs wrote:
| If they release 3D CAD models, connector part numbers, and
| circuit schematics, I'm buying one as my next laptop (when my
| current one fails or goes obsolete; not as soon as it's
| released). I expect, if history is any indicator, that they'll be
| out-of-business by then, though. I'd want to know:
|
| - How parts connect at a modular level (e.g. pinout and
| signalling between LCD and motherboard, how the battery
| communicates, etc.). I don't need to know e.g. motherboard
| schematic / layout
|
| - Mechanicals (enough to 3d print things which fit)
|
| - Ideally, as much firmware open as possible (esp. places like
| battery)
|
| .. and so on. I'd pay a pretty good markup too.
|
| I do agree with many posts. I'm not obsessive about laptop size
| and weight. I want something sturdy and which works well for
| work. Battery life, cooling, robustness, etc. all matter a lot
| more than weight.
| holri wrote:
| Will it run with completely free software? The limiting factor
| for lasting is not hardware but required proprietary software.
| nrp wrote:
| Our Embedded Controller firmware is fully open source. We're
| using a proprietary BIOS solution at launch, but that is
| something we'd like to fix in the future.
| walterbell wrote:
| Please consider a future option for device owners to install
| their preferred vendor of open-source firmware. If the
| hardware and enclosure platform gains traction, it will
| hopefully attract open system firmware developers. This will
| require an owner-controlled mechanism for signed-firmware key
| management.
| whoisburbansky wrote:
| Are you implying they're going to stop you from popping Ubuntu
| on it somehow?
|
| [Edit: Thanks for all the replies citing driver blobs and
| proprietary BIOS issues, totally slipped my mind that that was
| a concern, makes a ton more sense now.]
| ArchieMaclean wrote:
| They may be wondering if the BIOS is FOSS.
|
| E.g. LibreBoot https://libreboot.org/
|
| > Non-free BIOS/UEFI firmware often contains backdoors, can
| be slow and have severe bugs. Development and support can be
| abandoned at any time.
| sesuximo wrote:
| Idk bro the cpu microcode from intel is closed source. How
| can you live with that
|
| </s>
| holri wrote:
| Ubuntu runs also on proprietary drivers. If the hardware
| vendor stops to maintain the proprietary driver or binary
| blob the hardware could become obsolete very quickly,
| although it runs fine hardware wise. My 11yr old Nokia N900
| runs absolutely fine hardware wise. It also could run a new
| linux kernel, but some drivers are proprietary and can not be
| updated. What a waste.
| marcodiego wrote:
| He is just asking if it can reach the same level in terms of
| freedom as the laptops listed here:
| https://ryf.fsf.org/categories/laptops
| whoisburbansky wrote:
| Ah, that makes sense, I'd totally forgotten about
| proprietary driver blobs/BIOS issues.
| gillesjacobs wrote:
| I think he is referring to proprietary firmware/driver blobs
| that come with many CPUs and GPUs. Purism has focused on this
| issue and provide fully FOSS hardware [1].
|
| 1. https://puri.sm/learn/blobs/
| twobitshifter wrote:
| I love the idea. My suggestion: To make the laptop "you" as the
| site says, you need to make the laptop outwardly expressive.
| Nothing is less unique than a apple logo on the lid. Zune did an
| amazing job some time ago with custom engraving artist designs
| and patterns on the back of their MP3 players. Maybe Framework
| could do something similar?
| nrp wrote:
| The bezel around the display is magnetic-attach and we'll be
| offering a range of colors for it.
| IshKebab wrote:
| > We're here to prove that designing products to last doesn't
| require sacrificing performance, quality, or style.
|
| Mmm conspicuous omission of price. Still, the end of Moore's law
| does make this sort of product make more sense.
| james_pm wrote:
| Expansion cards = square dongles with USB-C connectors that plug
| into the frame.
| pmontra wrote:
| Nice project. However I see no Gigabit ethernet port. USB dongle
| for the one of us that prefer the performance and the
| predictability of a cable over Wi-Fi's whims?
| nrp wrote:
| A Gigabit Ethernet Expansion Card is on our roadmap, though it
| is going to look a little goofy compared to the other cards,
| since it won't fit entirely in the current envelope.
| LeifCarrotson wrote:
| I'll second the parent's request for an RJ45 Ethernet port.
| It can't possibly look any goofier than an Expresscard
| Ethernet adapter!
|
| One easy way to get it to fit would be to make the module
| thicker. To avoid the whole thing sitting at an angle in the
| existing envelope, you'd want to replace the little adhesive-
| secured feet with taller, screw-secured feet to give it
| clearance.
|
| I'm a controls engineer and am constantly connecting to PLCs
| and robots in environments that don't do wireless networking.
| I have to deal with all kinds of legacy hardware
| manufacturer's IDEs and real-time protocols that work poorly
| with USB dongles. Of course, your expansion cards are really
| USB dongles, and appear to allow tool-less hot-plugging
| (https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-
| content/uploads/2021/02/expan...). I'd love to see an
| optional screw to retain the card, and wouldn't mind shutting
| the laptop down and rebooting it, especially if it meant it
| showed up in /etc/network/interfaces all the time and never
| needed to be kicked out of sleep with `ip link set dev eth0
| up`.
|
| Other desirable expansion cards would be a VGA port or DB9
| serial port; would those fit?
|
| I fear that your efforts to reach beige-box compatibility are
| really hamstrung by the obsession with thin and light
| laptops; there's no way (for example) that you'll fit my
| preferred keyboard (Lenovo 45N2211, out of a T420) and still
| have the hinges close because the enclosure is so thin. I
| hope you succeed, but I especially hope you produce a 15"
| workstation version that's 10mm thicker.
| Finn1sher wrote:
| I wouldn't want it to be too thick, but I have to agree
| that a quality keyboard is SUPER important. At the very
| least, 2mm travel is much nicer than 1.5mm. And because
| it's modular, they might as well add a programmable
| ortholinear option! It would be a first in the laptop
| world, and may actually be successful due to the rising
| popularity of ergonomics.
|
| Maybe the 2mm ortho could have standard qwerty labels
| printed on the side of the keycaps, so it's not as
| obnoxious when people bind different layouts or macros.
|
| If I were to buy one, I would also buy the 15" version. Old
| thinkpads are awesome.
| pmontra wrote:
| If they do a 15" laptop, please make the keyboard
| configurable. I mean, no number pad for people like me and
| number pad for people that need it and tolerates an off
| center touchpad and space bar.
| intrasight wrote:
| This will only be "real" if an when there's an ecosystem of
| clones as happened with the original IBM PC. But it's definitely
| about time that we had such standards for laptops.
| wgjordan wrote:
| "designed to last" sounds great, but it can also be an empty
| promise without any contractual guarantees. What's the warranty
| going to be on this product?
| vessenes wrote:
| I always think of The Sandbenders from William Gibson's Idoru
| when I see projects like this.
|
| It might be worth publishing enough of the internal CAD
| measurements as specs so that artists could create their own
| enclosures / cool addons and be sure that they will have parts
| access.
|
| Anyway, my first thought was 'will an m1 board fit in there?' so
| I am looking forward to seeing your release!
| ramino wrote:
| Finally! I hope this company will be insanely successful. We need
| more companies like this focusing on repairability.
| PufPufPuf wrote:
| "Founding news" like these aren't really that exciting -- I'll be
| excited once one of these "modular laptop / phone" companies
| manages to last a few years and actually deliver on their
| promises.
| jokoon wrote:
| I hope it tries to follow a minimum of high standard for dust,
| humidity and heat, a little like thinkpads do.
|
| There are military standards for this, and I think it helps a lot
| to have a laptop that is durable.
| remarkEon wrote:
| Who actually makes the boards for this? I want to believe here,
| but I need to know a little more about the supply chain before
| I'll pick one up.
| nrp wrote:
| One of the big Taipei-based notebook manufacturers who builds
| machines for other popular brands. We'll be giving deeper
| transparency into our supply chain once we get full sign-off
| from the folks we work with there.
| baybal2 wrote:
| But in principle, who is doing the manufacturing, and getting
| a production ready design?
|
| Hearing "Taipei-based notebook manufacturer" I think already
| tells how it is, but I myself is totally OK with OEM laptops,
| especially if you put running Linux a priority.
|
| I had my own plans for making a designed from scratch x86
| laptop with AMD Ryzen chipset a year ago. Covid of course
| made a change to my plans.
| ehnto wrote:
| A big part of reparability is how readily available parts are.
| Using commodity parts available to anyone really helps with this,
| and so hopefully for parts like the battery module and the
| screen, they are off the shelf items. It sounds like the team at
| Framework have that in mind, so I am hopeful.
|
| Also, this is a very small niche, but it would be rad if down the
| line they came out with a ruggedized chassis upgrade. A
| repairable laptop that can be used in the field? That would be a
| dream.
| technojunkie wrote:
| If this gets industry-leading battery power, it sounds like an
| excellent option. Would also be fascinating to see a wrap-around
| screen someday :)
|
| Only one major request: reconsider the arrow keys to match the
| current generation MacBook Pro. That space above the left and
| right arrow keys is priceless!
| ryanisnan wrote:
| Wow, I would love to try this out. If the folks nail the hardware
| aspect, this is my future.
| ibraheemdev wrote:
| Just curious, why Intel over AMD? AMD has been dominating the CPU
| market lately in price for performance.
| Stevvo wrote:
| AMD's competitive mobile chips are bit different; higher TDP,
| higher core counts. Not ideal for a thin and light machine.
| ben-schaaf wrote:
| This is simply false. AMD has recently been ahead in
| performance/W leading to lower TDP while also being faster
| than Intel. Mobile AMD chips can be configured down to 10W
| even with 8c/16t.
| ibraheemdev wrote:
| I thought the 4000U series was supposed to be more efficient
| than Intel but still provide higher core counts?
| auraham wrote:
| This seems to be a really great product. I understand many of its
| features may change in the future. However, I would like to see a
| spec sheet in the website. Also, I wonder what is the difference
| between the standard model and the DIY version.
|
| On the other hand, the interior and exterior of the laptop look
| gorgeous.
| nrp wrote:
| At launch, the standard pre-built model and DIY have the same
| CPU options available. DIY allows a broader range of memory and
| storage options, including bringing your own. The pre-built
| offers Windows 10 Home or Pro, while DIY offers those plus the
| option to ship without an OS installed. Both versions allow
| Expansion Card selection at order time.
|
| Edit: And we will be sharing full spec sheets before we open
| pre-orders.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| Ironically I wish you launched a bit later; my laptop is only
| 3 years old and it would be rather ironic were I to throw it
| out to move to something more sustainable. I'll have to hope
| you succeed enough to still be around when it's 5-10 years
| old (or something breaks that I can't fix with the
| appropriate application of hot-air).
| wolfsayswof wrote:
| I'm just gonna say it. The design looks like a hard copy of the
| Macbook Air.
| whywhywhywhy wrote:
| Which honestly seems to undersell the machine, you make
| something so unique then just made it look like the problem its
| trying to solve.
|
| Hope the design team have a little more bravery in future
| soheil wrote:
| If I have to install Ubuntu Desktop or god forbid Windows to use
| your laptop you already lost me. Why doesn't someone try to
| tackle the operating system problem first? I literally don't care
| about the physical laptop as much as the software running on it.
| Also everyone always says hardware is hard so why not focus on a
| software solution for existing laptops? If there was an operating
| system half as good as Apple's I'd never buy a MacBook again.
| david927 wrote:
| Thank you so much for doing this. It's really needed.
|
| I once had an HP Envy laptop which was so poorly made that I
| refuse to buy anything from HP again.
| VlijmenFileer wrote:
| Another laptop with arrow keys so small they're unusable. No
| usable arrow keys means useless computer. What is wrong with
| laptop manufacturers making these broken keys standard? There's
| hardly any laptop left I could buy. A bit longer and I will have
| to drag an external keyboard everywhere just to use my laptop. Or
| just forgo laptop at all and start carrying some miny PC. It's
| insanity.
| ben_ wrote:
| Swappable keyboard
| FPGAhacker wrote:
| I certainly can understand the frustration. To offer another
| point of view, I'm not sure I've touched my arrow keys once in
| the last several years. I might have, but I don't remember it
| if I did.
| VlijmenFileer wrote:
| Yeah I understand not everybody has the same use pattern. But
| my right hand about /lives/ on those keys half of the time. I
| got a new work laptop a few months, some 13inch Fujitsu with
| same arrow keys. It's also not a matter of time; I /still/
| cannot properly use them. And though I'm Caucasian, I do not
| even have big hands. I honestly do not get it, there is
| easily enough place even on 13 incht laptops..
| craftkiller wrote:
| The librem 14 has what looks to be full-sized arrow keys:
| https://puri.sm/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/11300004-edited.j...
| kunalpowar1203 wrote:
| My naive question is "how do you guys manage profitability? and
| hence survive as a company". That's the one point that I can't
| explain to someone when I rant about companies making devices
| that cannot be repaired and would last an average 3 years.
| gohbgl wrote:
| Well, in the tech space this is very easy to explain: They
| survive by selling new devices. People will eventually buy new
| laptops to get access to faster hardware.
| bfrog wrote:
| Why not have a pointer nib, its _the_ reason I 've continued to
| use ibm and now lenovo laptops. Trackpads are RSI inducing.
| aerovistae wrote:
| Wait what operating system does it use?
| skadamat wrote:
| This is super cool! Any plans to release a trackpad with the
| classic 2 physical buttons?
| Hasz wrote:
| Look at the older Lenovo workstation laptops for an example of
| something similar.
|
| I have a P50 -- a 3840x2160 15" screen, 32GB of RAM, Xeon
| E3-1505M v5 @ 2.8GHz, and a removable battery. It also comes with
| space (easily accessible!) for extra drives, ram slots, etc. Even
| with the overkill Xeon CPU, I still get ~5hours of battery life
| on windows under moderate load.
|
| Most importantly, the service manual is a thing of beauty, and
| has detailed instructions for almost any replacement. This is a
| laptop designed to be used, upgraded, and used again.
| AdmiralAsshat wrote:
| Looks like it's still tapering off towards the edge.
|
| Feel like they might've been able to fit slightly more space for
| port swapping if they had gone for the uniform aluminum slab
| design of the Chromebook Pixel, which, to me, is still beautiful:
|
| https://regmedia.co.uk/2013/03/02/google_pixel_chromebook_he...
| jrmski wrote:
| The year of the linux laptop?
| desmap wrote:
| Nirav, I don't want to be the guy but yeah. One the one side, I
| like that somebody finally takes care of products we really need
| --notebooks. That somebody enters the hardware game, one of the
| hardest spaces to conquer. On the other side, I am a bit
| underwhelmed.
|
| I mean this must the dream of every engineer, designer and
| 13-year old. Designing your own notebook. And what's the results?
| It's good, I would buy one, maybe. But is it a gadget I think of
| before I fall asleep?
|
| This logo, then the centered trackpad (are you serious?), huge
| clumsy bays nobody asked for and a non-centered displays. Worst,
| a design that doesn't dare, that is afraid to go beyond the
| Macbook comfort zone, something that wants to be liked, something
| Chuwi and BMAX, two low-end Chinese brands, would have designed
| better. Btw, celebrating this reparability feature, maybe you
| should check out what Schenker/XMG/Clevo or the Thinkpads do for
| years. Not that all of aforementioned are dealbreakers but IDK,
| let's says they do not make a good first impression.
|
| Look at following non-iconic notebooks[1]--I don't compare yours
| with iconic brands, this wouldn't be fair--but look what other
| non-premium brands are able to create. These are gadgets I dream
| of and you should think of restarting the project, seriously, I
| mean are you happy with this yourself or would Jobs be?
|
| [1]
|
| Brand new Chinese Yoga 14S
| https://www.reddit.com/r/AMDLaptops/comments/kifq5i/lenovo_y...
|
| Brand new Asus Flow X13
| https://www.reddit.com/r/eGPU/comments/l5fq7a/asus_rog_flow_...
|
| Razer Book 13 https://www.razer.com/productivity-laptops/razer-
| book-13
|
| Asus G14 ACRONYM limited editon,
| https://rog.asus.com/microsite/ROG-ZEPHYRUS-G14-ACRNM/
|
| ---
|
| PS: If anyone disagrees, pls comment and let me know where I am
| wrong thanks.
| RussianCow wrote:
| > This logo, then the centered trackpad (are you serious?),
| huge clumsy bays and a non-centered displays. Worst a design
| that doesn't dare, that is afraid to go beyond the Macbook
| comfort zone, something that wants to be liked. Not that all of
| these are dealbreakers but IDK, let's says they do not make a
| good first impression.
|
| Personally, I don't think they want to change too many
| variables at the same time. It makes sense to first create
| something that is familiar to users while offering the benefits
| they advertise, instead of alienating users right off the bat
| with a weird/different design that may or may not be
| successful. It's just unnecessary risk at this point.
| stephen wrote:
| I know trackpads won, but would love a trackpoint. I keep buying
| Thinkpads solely for that feature.
| maximzxc wrote:
| same for me
| Liskni_si wrote:
| I don't use the trackpoint often on my ThinkPad, but I wouldn't
| buy a laptop without it. It's impossible to use the touchpad in
| a confined space such as an airplane (economy class) or a bus.
| messo wrote:
| Same for me, but I can understand if it is hard to implement in
| the current design.
| bxparks wrote:
| How do I scroll a page up and down with a trackpoint (on
| Windows and Linux)? I've tried using a trackpoint, but the two-
| finger swipe up and down on a trackpad is a convenience that I
| cannot seem to live without.
| skavi wrote:
| there's a scroll button iirc. You hold it down, and the
| trackpoint scrolls instead of moving the cursor.
| stephen wrote:
| Sure! I'm typing on this USB keyboard:
|
| https://www.amazon.com/Lenovo-ThinkPad-Compact-Keyboard-
| Trac...
|
| And to scroll I press the middle blue button (below space
| bar), and then push the trackpoint stick up/down. The mouse
| cursor doesn't move, and instead the OS just scrolls the
| window.
|
| (Fwiw I'm on Linux and this behavior just worked out of the
| box, for both my generic desktop w/this keyboard & Thinkpad
| laptop.)
|
| Obligatory fanboy note, while performing this scroll action,
| I only have to move my thumb ~0.5" off the space bar, and my
| pointer finger ~1" off "j". So there is very little physical
| movement required to scroll (or click), vs. moving your whole
| palm up & down ~6" to the trackpad.
| bxparks wrote:
| Hmm, the middle mouse button is bound to "paste text from
| buffer" on Linux (probably X11 more accurately), so I keep
| pasting random text into the edit box or terminal window.
| And if I click on that middle button, then change my mind
| about scrolling the window, then release that button, it
| pastes the buffer. It looks like I have to move the
| trackpoint just slightly to change my mind
|
| I don't know. Maybe people can be trained to workaround all
| this, but it seems very fragile and unintuitive to me. If
| there was a way to bind the middle button to one of the
| modifier keys (e.g. Alt, Ctrl, Shift, Fn, Super/Window), I
| can see that being a better UX. Then I can hit the modifier
| key, then change my mind without affecting anything.
| cupofjoakim wrote:
| This actually looks promising but I wonder if I'm really the
| target group. While I do build custom computers every now and
| then i also cherish the "completeness" of the unibody design that
| my MBP has. I also wonder about the availability of parts...
|
| Also, big up for the 3:2 screen.
| coldpie wrote:
| > Also, big up for the 3:2 screen.
|
| Amen. Any chance I can buy one for my desktop?
| hyperpl wrote:
| If the screen is swappable I'd really like to see a lower DPI
| version of 1920x1280. The Thinkpad X1C9 by comparison is 14" @
| 1920x1200.
| chrismorgan wrote:
| 13.5'' 2256x1504, that's 201ppi, not too shabby, just right for
| 1.5x scaling for an effective resolution of 1504x1002 2/3 .
|
| (I like my Surface Book's 13.5'' 3000x2000 267ppi display which
| is just the right size for 2x scaling, yielding an effective
| resolution of 1500x1000.)
|
| For reference, the common 13.3'' 1920x1080 display is 166ppi,
| 13.3'' 1366x768 is 118ppi, 15.6'' 1920x1080 is 141ppi, and
| 15.6'' 1366x768 is 100ppi.
|
| (I'm idly curious why it's 2256x1504 rather than 2250x1500,
| which would scale to the more convenient effective resolution
| of 1500x1000 at 150%, and still 200ppi.)
| leephillips wrote:
| Resolution is marginal. It would be a step down from my
| _2013_ Google Chrome pixel (240 dpi), which you can get
| refurbished for about $200.
| ripvanwinkle wrote:
| Love what you are building and rooting for this. I've been
| waiting for something like this for atleast 10 years
| jhu247 wrote:
| Love seeing a startup focused on hardware. Skeptical about the
| success but bravo to their efforts.
| skrebbel wrote:
| Love the logo on the back of the screen. No stupid slogans, just
| the cog, looks great! It makes no rational sense, but I'd want to
| own one just for that.
|
| Hope there's gonna be a touchscreen version! After all, a UI that
| you can't touch is like coffee that you can't smell.
| willyt wrote:
| I didn't get the idea of a touchscreen laptop until I got an
| iPad recently, now I'm constantly trying to touch my laptop
| screen and then getting confused when I doesn't do anything.
| Gracana wrote:
| Do physical units exist yet? Where is the manufacturing done? It
| looks expensive to manufacture in small quantities. I do like the
| idea, but I'm afraid that this will become e-waste if Framework
| doesn't exist, grow, and succeed for years to come.
|
| The MNT Reform also does the "sustainable laptop" thing, via an
| open source approach. It's a lot simpler to manufacture and
| easier for end users to modify, and its longevity doesn't
| necessarily rely on MNT Research continuing to exist. I feel
| that's the safer approach.
| spijdar wrote:
| They're just very different products, ultimately. I've
| preordered a Reform and they're just very different laptops, in
| that this project is aiming to produce a laptop that could
| satisfy "the masses" buying Thinkpads or MBPs or XPS 13s etc
| and want the performance and software compatibility.
|
| Reform makes sacrifices in performance and form factor (much
| bulkier) but makes up for it in basically all the parts being
| 3D printable on hardware you could feasibly have at home, and
| even the PCBs look simple enough I bet you could hand assemble
| everything except the SoM module.
|
| I don't think the reform could ever become "mainstream" but I
| don't think it really wants to, either. This could be great if,
| like you mentioned, it "takes off" and converts more regular
| laptop users to a _more_ repairable laptop than their old ones.
| We 'll see...
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