[HN Gopher] Why I'm Done Pretending Touchscreen Infotainment Isn...
___________________________________________________________________
Why I'm Done Pretending Touchscreen Infotainment Isn't a Stupid,
Hazardous Fad
Author : sharkweek
Score : 119 points
Date : 2021-02-26 18:22 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.thedrive.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.thedrive.com)
| unknown2374 wrote:
| I was in the market for a car last year, and wanted to
| specifically buy a car from $BRAND. To my dismay, all their 2020
| models were replaced with touchscreens, after many years of being
| behind on replacing their older hardware controlled infotainment.
|
| I ended up buying a second hand lease return model from 2018
| instead. I understand why they don't provide that as an optional
| upgrade (increased manufacturing and maintenance costs for two
| different systems), but I really wish they did.
| dominotw wrote:
| >Pretty much every study of in-car touchscreens' effects on
| drivers reaches the same conclusion: They're a serious
| distraction.
|
| I think serious flaw in these studies is that B case is users
| without distracting displays in the cars. But B case is people
| using their phone to pick the next podcast or change the album.
| To me google car is less dangerous because i am not using my
| phone to look for traffic patterns, change music ect.
| contravariant wrote:
| Well if your hypothesis is that it's a problem then you
| shouldn't be comparing it against a known problem. You will
| either end up showing it's not _as_ problematic, which doesn 't
| say much; or you end up with a negative result, meaning you
| can't really tell either way.
|
| Besides this isn't an either/or problem, we should aim to
| remove all forms of distraction, not go for the least bad
| choice. Driving safely takes precedence over avoiding traffic
| or enjoying music.
| Daho0n wrote:
| Here they include both:
|
| https://www.iamroadsmart.com/campaign-pages/end-customer-cam...
| corytheboyd wrote:
| I just wish there was at least some effort/mandate to make the
| UIs the same. Every touch interface I have used is different,
| which is second in terribleness only to the horrible latency.
| This is such a stupid problem to have in a car.
| bichiliad wrote:
| I think uniformness in interface will probably make it a lot
| harder for cars to be flexible to the needs of a driver. The
| fact that the interface is different from car to car is
| probably only a problem if you jump around between cars a lot,
| but the fact that you have to learn an interface that you
| _have_ to look at to use, while at the same time operating a
| vehicle, is probably the main cause of frustration for most
| people.
|
| Plus, there's some argument to be made about regulations
| hurting innovation. I'm not usually the type of person to make
| those arguments, but this seems like one of those cases where
| the ability to actually make a good, dynamic interface might
| never happen.
| [deleted]
| jrochkind1 wrote:
| Is it even possible to get a new car without a touch screen?
|
| I hate it.
| alkonaut wrote:
| Just don't use "infotainment" when driving. Changing the lights
| and wipers or heating the windows isn't infotainment and should
| be dedicated buttons you can find without taking your eyes of the
| road.
|
| But changing the car setup, choosing a navigation destination or
| changing playlists? Excellent on touchscreens. Almost impossible
| to even make well any other way. So don't do that while driving!
| That touchscreen has 3 uses 1) as a read only screen for the
| driver when driving 2) as an interactive screen for the driver
| when parked 3) as an interactive screen for the passenger.
|
| What's important is to not conflate entertainment and setup on
| one hand and driving on the other. Those are completely different
| use cases and need completely different interfaces.
|
| If a car brand puts lights or wiper controls on the touchscreen
| please don't call it "infotainment". It's like putting the
| steering wheel on the touch screen. It's driving controls. They
| don't belong there.
| swiley wrote:
| >Changing the lights and wipers or heating the windows isn't
| infotainment and should be dedicated buttons you can find
| without taking your eyes of the road.
|
| It should be but isn't unfortunately. Also the radio is
| important, in the US at least driving for hours at a time is
| pretty normal and you need any tool you can get to keep
| yourself awake, that includes things like the radio.
|
| >Excellent on touchscreens.
|
| IMO the only thing "Excellent" on touchscreens is scrolling and
| that's only multi-touch screens which many cars don't have (and
| you absolutely shouldn't be scrolling and driving, heck have
| some beer instead of doing that.)
| [deleted]
| Daho0n wrote:
| Like Porsche with touchscreen control of air vents..
| [deleted]
| Karunamon wrote:
| Tesla too. Vent control strikes me as one of those things
| that has no business being driven by the electronics when
| manual control is so easy and intuitive.
| onli wrote:
| Also see the tesla wiper speed case - touchscreen caused
| crash when driver tried to adjust wiper speed, but ruled to
| be his fault as using the touchscreen while driving was
| illegal [0]. Those touchscreen controls are not only
| dangerous, they are gonna be outlawed. Something to
| consider when buying a new car; Even if you don't value
| your safety, might value the lost value of the car...
|
| [0]: https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/tech-
| zukunft/tesla-unfal...
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > Just don't use "infotainment" when driving.
|
| This isn't good blanket advice - listening to the radio for
| example is a good way to stay awake and alert on long drives,
| good mapping can mean you can plan things like exits more early
| and safely than if you have to wait for signs, and reversing
| cameras can show you blind spots where dangers can lie.
| alkonaut wrote:
| Radio has different UIs for setting up (finding) stations,
| making lists of favorites etc. Great on a touchscreen. Just
| cycling presets doesn't need a touchscreen and I'd assume
| almost all modern cars even do that on the steering wheel
| (volume up down and track/channel step).
| chrisseaton wrote:
| Right but I thought you were arguing "Just don't use
| "infotainment" when driving" and these are still part of
| the infotainment systems. No need to throw out everything
| just because of touchscreens.
| Fomite wrote:
| When I bought my VW GTI, there was one model above the base, the
| "Wolfsberg Edition", that didn't have a screen. The controls were
| straightforward and tactile.
|
| I checked recently and that option's gone, which made me a little
| sad as I wrestled with having to restart CarPlay in our other
| vehicle to get it to talk to my iPhone.
| yawaworht1978 wrote:
| Yes it is dangerous, they are at times unresponsive, visibility
| can be obscured depending on daylight. Travelling at 60mph you
| move 45 meters or yards in one second. Would you run full steam
| ahead 45 yards in a tight jungle?
|
| I will give it a pass.
| orev wrote:
| I agree in general, however the rise of touch screens has also
| coincided with a dramatic increase in other safety features, like
| lane keeping assist, auto braking capability, and even android
| auto/iOS carplay (which at least allow attention to be focused on
| the dash instead of down on the phone). I would not be surprised
| if these are somewhat mitigating the distraction issues by
| actually allowing distraction to have less risk.
|
| I'm not saying it's perfect or even desirable, but it is at least
| there.
|
| Also, I think a contributing factor to touch screen problems are
| the absolutely terrible GUIs the auto manufacturers come up with,
| and their insistence on using the cheapest (slowest) CPU they can
| find just to save $2 on the build. If these screens were much
| faster to respond, you wouldn't have to be distracted for
| multiple seconds just waiting for the command to have an effect.
| clairity wrote:
| those "safety" features can be dangerous in a few ways, like
| generally deskilling drivers over time, thereby increasing
| accident rates and severity of accidents. i've personally had
| auto-braking (on a rental car) almost cause an accident, which
| i had to counteract to avoid.
| Daho0n wrote:
| Research shows that even using voice control of Apple carplay
| is way worse than driving at the legal blood alcohol level and
| also worse than cannabis. So while I agree that it is bad with
| the often slow CPUs and bad UI (like Tesla's) it isn't much
| help if the fix still include anything but old knobs and dials.
|
| Edit: Example of research..
|
| https://www.iamroadsmart.com/campaign-pages/end-customer-cam...
| alacombe wrote:
| Any kind of LCD screen is a security hazard at night. Even black
| are lit enough to cause distraction and prevent getting used to
| the dark.
| tenebrisalietum wrote:
| You're right--mine has an option to turn off the screen
| completely.
|
| It would be nice if the systems detected ambient light
| automatically and went into a redshift mode when it is dark.
| nabla9 wrote:
| Blue LCD's and LED's are both security risk and UI failure.
|
| BMW does it right. Their orange red is perfect for the dark.
| myko wrote:
| This is silly when I think of the touch screen in my Model S. The
| "Infotainment" us 100% useful for the 45 minute charging sessions
| I occasionally endure. And while driving it isn't used.
| Daho0n wrote:
| Do you park to change the vipers if it starts to rain? Someone
| in Germany crashed while using the touchscreen in his Tesla
| when it started to rain and was fined as using it while driving
| is illegal.
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| Just so you're aware, your experience does not appear to
| generalize.
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jul/01/tesla-dri...
| ogre_codes wrote:
| Just bought a Tesla so kind of new to the whole touchscreen
| thing. The big thing I noticed is the bulk of what you need to
| use while driving is either on the steering column or exceedingly
| easy to get to on the touch screen. Wipers, cruise settings,
| basic music controls, are all right there. Climate control is
| right on the bottom and easily adjustable.
|
| The thing which does bother me is it can be a rabbit-hole getting
| at some of the other features. If you want to enable seat heating
| on the back seats? It's about 3 clicks in which is bad.
|
| Since the car has pretty damned good drivers assist technology
| it's very easy to let the computer do the driving while you poke
| at the screen. Which... is not good.
|
| I love the autopilot. But it is very easy to lean on when you
| shouldn't.
| Lendal wrote:
| The single worst feature with Tesla is it takes at least two
| taps to turn on wipers. During that time, it has just started
| raining, which is a dangerous time to take your eyes off the
| road. And you must take your eyes off the road because the taps
| are in two different locations on the screen, and there is an
| animation involved, and after that animation you must decide
| which speed setting to tap on. All this time your eyes are not
| on the road. There is an Auto setting there, but Tesla's rain-
| sensing tech is unusably bad. I never use Auto. All my other
| luxury cars with rain-sensing I've always used Auto, but not
| Tesla.
| kinghajj wrote:
| > If you want to enable seat heating on the back seats? It's
| about 3 clicks in which is bad.
|
| IIRC, you can use voice commands for that particular case.
| "Turn on the right rear seat heater." There's definitely other
| use cases that still aren't covered by voice commands, at least
| the last time I tried. I can't exactly recall what those cases
| are, though. I should check the latest user manual, in case
| there's an exhaustive list of all supported voice commands...
| Klonoar wrote:
| I find CarPlay + the BMW dial to be a useful level.
|
| Trying to do anything touch related is a nightmare while driving,
| so it's still tactile, and CarPlay itself is pretty well
| optimized for viewing things at a glance and not overwhelming you
| with things to decipher.
|
| I legitimately do not think that that touch screens and
| infotainment like this should be in cars, but I think the closer
| we get to self-driving cars, the more you're going to see this
| stuff pushed as it fits that model.
| Daho0n wrote:
| Voice controlled Apple carplay much worse a distraction than
| driving at the legal alcohol limit or after using cannabis:
|
| https://www.iamroadsmart.com/campaign-pages/end-customer-cam...
| Wxc2jjJmST9XWWL wrote:
| "clearly you're not a fan of touchscreens"
|
| "no, I hate the things, I mean in a fast car, actually they
| shouldn't be allowed in a fast car, they really shouldn't"
|
| legendary f1/car designer Gordon Murray, around ~30, but the
| complete video is gold
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4EIYQ6fkG4
|
| anyone interested in cars, engineering and design (or a
| combination) should watch it.
|
| there's also a great podcast episode featuring him
| https://collectingcars.com/podcasts/ (episode 21)
|
| sorry since I don't have much to say about the article itself,
| wanted to share this though. I dislike almost everything about
| modern cars (touch is the least of my problems) ; usability,
| 'repairability', electronic assistance, cameras, trend to SUVs
| for driving children to school, weight and size increase et
| cetera ... don't want to write that rant in full right now.
| Fordec wrote:
| Touchscreens will be on the way out. But what I do expect what
| will come down the line that hasn't been done yet is custom
| shaped screens embedded _within_ analog controls. Since notches
| in phone screens started becoming a thing, the ability to
| manufacture non-rectangular shaped screens has an array of so far
| unexplored options for dynamic information communication without
| foregoing the tactile user experience.
| sebastien_b wrote:
| Someone once made an insightful comment about touchscreens: that
| it's ironic that they're the type of device you can't operate by
| touch.
| nom wrote:
| One big reason for touchscreens that is often overlooked is the
| fact that the traditional automobile industry moves slow. Very
| slow. Even software running all the basic functions has to be
| finalized like a year before production and knobs and buttons
| have to be designed and frozen much much earlier. With a
| touchscreen you have a lot more freedom and you can even ship
| upgrades afterwards that adds more features or changes the
| behavior.
| swiley wrote:
| I think plenty of people here have been done with smart/touch
| crap for years now. It was kind of neat when the technology was
| new and the premium option but when the choice of a decent UI
| went away it really started to suck.
| ucm_edge wrote:
| What happened to voice commands in cars? I have a 2012 model
| that's about perfect from an ergonomics point. That is tactile
| buttons got first choice on positioning and every button is
| easily reachable from my driving position and there is an overall
| logic to the ordering of the buttons. Plus some of the buttons
| have little bumps on them similar to the home keys on a keyboard.
| The touchscreen got second choice so it's a little awkward to
| work, but that's fine because you're not supposed to fussing with
| it when in motion. The manufacturer tried to compensate for this
| by giving you voice controls to do things on the touch screen/nav
| system but you have to say the magic words just right so it's
| kind of a meh experience, as was a lot of that earlier voice
| controlled stuff.
|
| We did't need all these dual touchscreens and such. We just
| needed the voice commands to get better.
|
| One insight I did gather was that my 2012's buttons were
| apparently costly to the manufacturer since they had to worry
| about the feel of the buttons, their layout had to be worked out,
| you have to make sure they hold up, it's moving pieces you need
| to quality control in your build, and of course if you ever want
| to redesign this cabin you have to do it all again for those
| faceplates. So touchscreens are cheaper. Which is probably why
| even though a lot of manufacturers probably know they could offer
| a better overall experience if they put more effort into the
| buttons, they go with the touch screen.
| robomartin wrote:
| I have an admittedly simple minded opinion about this: If I can't
| operate it without looking, it's dangerous.
|
| Of course, there's always a learning period. After that, with
| knobs and buttons, you don't need to look (and sometimes very
| little).
|
| We have one vehicle with Apple Car Play. Once you understand the
| cognitive load required to operate certain functions it quickly
| becomes a scary thing to consider.
|
| A second simplistic perspective: If I can't operate it without
| looking, while doing 120 at Willow Springs, it's dangerous.
|
| Third perspective: I would not want touch screens on our Haas and
| Bridgeport CNC machines. It would be very dangerous. Why would I
| want one in a car.
|
| Touch screen UI's are fragile and potentially dangerous because
| you don't know what you are touching, the controls don't maintain
| tactile state and it is too easy to click the wrong thing.
|
| I do understand the value for manufacturers. I have designed and
| worked on a range of knob-and-button and hybrid control panels,
| including one that went to space.
|
| Physical control panels are difficult and expensive to design and
| manufacture. They also require tons of testing because it's a
| hard commitment. In sharp contrast to this, you can just throw a
| touch screen at something and worry about the UI later. Easily a
| 1000:1 development cost advantage for any non-trivial project.
| renewiltord wrote:
| Biggest regret I have with my car is that it doesn't have a
| massive touchscreen. It's for me to observe and my passenger to
| operate.
| autoditype wrote:
| Have insurers determined if touchscreens result in more
| accidents? And have premiums accounted for this?
|
| I was told decades ago that insurance companies analyze vehicle
| make, models, and colors for accidents, and adjust the premiums
| (heard red cars were often at fault and white cars were often hit
| because they were missed by other drivers while merging lanes,
| not sure if that data is still true in 2021). Surely they also
| include these features into their analysis
| swiley wrote:
| They should handle it like radios: let the user just yank the
| whole thing out and leave CAN/power/speaker connectors. Then
| reasonable organizations can build the controls.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > Have insurers determined if touchscreens result in more
| accidents? And have premiums accounted for this?
|
| Is it possible to buy a car without one anymore?
| Der_Einzige wrote:
| Unfortunately, it's extremely possible. Up until recently,
| Lexus didn't have a touch-screen in its lineup. Android Auto
| / Apple Carplay forced their hand on bringing them back.
| aeternum wrote:
| This is not true, the navigation option for Lexus has
| included a touchscreen for decades.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| How did things like navigation work before touchscreens?
| There can't have been a QWERTY keyboard on the dashboard?
| AshamedCaptain wrote:
| Voice interface (of the "pull the lever to speak"
| variety), physical buttons (e.g. T9) , physical dials
| (e.g. rotate to select key then press to confirm),
| drawing letters on a touchpad (seen it), etc.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| These all sound terrible. I'd hate to go back to that.
| AshamedCaptain wrote:
| Except for the dial (some Mercedes had it) and voice,
| I've tested the rest and found them highly convenient,
| actually.
| [deleted]
| cgriswald wrote:
| The voice entry on my MB can be frustrating sometimes,
| mostly when telling it street names, but the entry knob
| it has is easy to use. It dials clockwise and
| counterclockwise, works as a four way joystick, and
| presses down as a button.
| lupire wrote:
| Joystick control for virtual keyboard.
| MauranKilom wrote:
| You turn a knob to scroll through the alphabet and press
| the knob to enter the currently selected character.
| notriddle wrote:
| That doesn't seem better than a touchscreen.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| Doesn't sound like great UX! Must take forever to type an
| address in.
| guessbest wrote:
| It has the same functionality as putting a name in a game
| using a SNES controller.
| ghaff wrote:
| Is that a serious question? Vehicles simply didn't have
| have navigation prior to separate GPSs like Garmin. Once
| they were built into cars, they used the same touchscreen
| interfaces. The entertainment "system" (radio/CD) simply
| used a few buttons. The "navigation system" was a map
| that, if you were by yourself, was something you tried to
| follow without taking your eyes off the road too much
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > Is that a serious question?
|
| Yes?
|
| > Vehicles simply didn't have have navigation prior to
| separate GPSs like Garmin.
|
| But we're not talking pre-Garmin here - the person I was
| replying to said recent Lexus didn't have them. They must
| have had navigation in a recent Lexus surely? So how did
| you input an address?
| ghaff wrote:
| I guess I'm surprised that such things existed. I never
| saw one, but then I still don't have a built-in
| touchscreen system. I just use a phone. I guess I assumed
| that any built-in nav touch screen was controlled by
| touch but maybe not.
| Der_Einzige wrote:
| A joystick or touchpad!
|
| https://i.pinimg.com/originals/47/14/b2/4714b2032ba746a2f
| ce7...
|
| https://images.cars.com/cldstatic/wp-
| content/uploads/img-142...
|
| also lol at people downvoting me who don't drive a Lexus
| and think I'm wrong about my claim that they don't use
| touch screens. Maybe they had one model that kept a touch
| screen but the RX series didn't get one until I believe
| 2020. It had 4 years of not having one at least. That's
| by far their most popular car. I don't remember the ES or
| GX that I test drove having them either until recently...
| mintone wrote:
| There is a delightfully awful feature in audis where you
| can draw letters on a sort of touchpad and it works out
| what they are correctly a good 10% of the time. It's a
| cool tech I guess, but a really quite awful idea for
| cars, both in terms of UX and keeping concentration on
| the road.
| bronxasaur wrote:
| My car has this. It's actually pretty well-done, and I
| can do it while keeping a hand on the wheel and eyes on
| the road.
|
| Of course, I could also stare at the screen and use the
| knob to rotate through a keyboard, or use my voice. It's
| all about the options!
| guessbest wrote:
| You'd input a street address on something that looked
| like a SNES game controller.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nw6EQXiLPkY
| Svip wrote:
| Something like this:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro_Gyrocator
| guessbest wrote:
| Haha, I saw that, too before I posted the youtube link to
| a Mercedes-Benz GPS from 1999
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nw6EQXiLPkY
|
| People forget what older car and handheld units used to
| look like and how to input them, but then again, this was
| over 2 decades ago.
| jimbob45 wrote:
| Why is that unfortunate? Being able to run your car by feel
| alone is very fortunate.
| ghaff wrote:
| There are certain systems that probably have to be a
| combination of touchscreen and voice. What's happened
| though is that a bunch of parallel knobs and buttons have
| been removed.
| [deleted]
| roland35 wrote:
| I agree. I am glad my 2018 Volt has nice big buttons right below
| the screen, both for radio controls and climate controls. It is
| also nice to have a few unique controls on the steering wheel, as
| opposed to the new trend I'm seeing where there are thumb rollers
| and selectors on the wheel.
|
| The only thing it is missing is a dedicated air conditioning
| button! I guess the car thinks it is smart enough to turn ac on
| if the temperature setting is low.
| soheil wrote:
| The latest S-Class pretty much just has a giant touch screen in
| the center, I'm not so sure if I buy the just a fad argument [0].
| If you don't know much about cars, S-Class is the standard other
| car manufacturers aspire to when it comes to tech, FSD
| notwithstanding.
|
| I don't want your down votes believe me I don't like them either,
| but the truth is touchscreens are cheaper than having a million
| buttons that break all the time, you can push a software update
| to fix bugs or heck even upgrade the entire UI if you wanted to.
| If you're a car manufacture why would you ever look back?
|
| [0] https://www.google.com/search?q=2021+s+class+interior
| oblib wrote:
| I think they're an awful addition to driver controls. You simply
| cannot be distracted while driving for more than a few seconds
| before you're endangering yourself and others and there is no
| good place to put them that doesn't take your eyes off the road.
|
| When I use a mapping app for driving I use one I can place on the
| dashboard and quickly glance at it but I don't fiddle with it.
|
| Watching videos of those pile ups in Texas this month was just
| stunning. Everyone who rear ended the car in front of them was an
| idiot. There is no excuse for driving faster than you can react
| to the car in front of you coming to a full stop. None at all.
|
| I grew up around and working with body men who repaired crashed
| car and the people who crashed them, custom and race car
| builders, and race car drivers, and some of those drivers broke
| world speed records, and some died racing. I also designed and
| built "zero effort" driving systems for C4-C5 quadriplegics so
| they could drive while sitting in their wheelchairs. Most of them
| couldn't pick up a sandwich but they could safely drive the
| vehicles we built for them.
|
| Of all the crazy things people have asked me to do to their car,
| none of it would be more dangerous than a touchscreen for driver
| controls, and especially one with entertainment features. That's
| the ultimate stupid feature. And I have been asked to do a shit
| ton of crazy things to cars people drive. Evel Kenival wanted me
| to build a show car that "exploded the body off", and I did. And
| as far as know, no one was ever injured by it. If he'd asked me
| to build him a car that he could change the radio station with a
| touchscreen TV in the center console while driving down the
| highway I'd have told him "No. I won't do that".
|
| What scares me is people buy and use this stuff now while
| barreling down the hwy at 70+mph.
| BoorishBears wrote:
| > There is no excuse for driving faster than you can react to
| the car in front of you coming to a full stop. None at all.
|
| The other reply aludes to this, but it's very simple
|
| _The easiest way to cause an accident is to behave in an
| unexpected way_
|
| Leave a gap when no one else is? People will cut into the gap
| and put you and others at risk.
|
| Brake early to increase the space you have? People not paying
| attention will rear end you expecting you to have braked later.
|
| Drive slower than most traffic to give yourself more reaction
| time? People will pass you unsafely, and you again run the risk
| of being rear ended since going slower than people expect is a
| similar outcome to them coming across an unexpected obstacle.
|
| That's why we see fully autonomous vehicles getting in so many
| not-at-fault accidents. The most experienced drivers realize
| there are a lot of unspoken conventions that, for better or
| worse, people rely on to get from place to place.
|
| Sometimes those backfire like in that pile up, but this isn't
| really something you fix by being the only person doing
| otherwise.
|
| You'll quickly find that you're putting yourself at the mercy
| of other drivers (and yes you won't be at fault, but not being
| at fault never saved someone in an ICU)
| dragosmocrii wrote:
| Are you referring to the pileup caused by the black ice on the
| overpass? At those Texican speeds, trying to stop a sixteen
| wheeler on ice would be a miracle. Plus, panick stopping
| engages the ABS, which is even worse on ice tgan without it.
| tyingq wrote:
| _" There is no excuse for driving faster than you can react to
| the car in front of you coming to a full stop. None at all."_
|
| Not offering this up as an excuse but rather sort of a pattern
| of behavior.
|
| When I leave lots of room between me and the car in front of
| me, it invites crazy behavior for people cutting into that big
| open space. Especially with people that don't know how to merge
| onto a freeway.
|
| It's sometimes hard to tell if following technically too close
| is actually safer for that reason.
|
| Note that I've never rear-ended anybody, but I've certainly had
| some exciting panic stops.
| bluntfang wrote:
| Is there an entity out there trying to solve the design issue
| around cars? Like, why is it possible to do the erratic
| behavior you describe when you leave room for the car ahead
| of you? How can we change the design of either cars or roads
| to inhibit dangerous behavior? I'm sure most people who read
| this have driven on an American highway and observe dangerous
| behaviors from other drivers. It's curious why, as a society,
| we ignore this as a given for independent transportation.
| [deleted]
| Agingcoder wrote:
| Is it me or is the title difficult to parse? (multiple negatives
| ?)
| TechBro8615 wrote:
| Not just you; I thought the same.
| NathanielK wrote:
| It won't be a fad if it's cheaper to add a touch screen than
| adding mechanical switch gear to cars. I agree with the article
| though, it can be dangerous. Unless there are legal consequences,
| I don't see touch screens going away.
|
| In Germany, a driver got in trouble for adjusting his wiper speed
| on the touch screen, then drove off the road from the
| distraction,[1] but I'm not aware of other rulings.
|
| > "The touch screen built into the Tesla brand vehicle is an
| electronic device [...] which the driver of the vehicle is only
| permitted to operate under the conditions of this regulation
| without it being a matter of what purpose the driver is pursuing
| with the operation.
|
| > The setting of the functions necessary for the operation of the
| motor vehicle via touchscreen (here: setting the wiping interval
| of the windshield wiper) is therefore only permitted if this is
| done with only a brief glance at the screen that is adapted to
| the road, traffic, visibility and weather conditions at the same
| time corresponding averted view of the traffic is connected ".
|
| [1]
| https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=auto&tl=en&u=h...
| ghaff wrote:
| It's idiocy not to have basic car and environmental functions
| accessible via easy to access physical controls. I'm less
| concerned about infotainment so long as that's all in the
| optional category--though, ideally, voice controls would be
| fairly useful.
| viraptor wrote:
| I liked the "accidental solution" in older Prius (2007 I think?).
| It had a touch screen for address input/map and some setup. But
| it was so far away you actually had to lean in to reach it. You
| would never do that while driving so you wouldn't play with it -
| the inconvenience was a good thing. Putting lots of controls on
| the steering wheel with tactile differences for each helped too.
| Der_Einzige wrote:
| I dunno, I own a 2017 Lexus RX 450h which does not have a touch-
| screen but instead has a joystick type system which I can only
| imagine was designed to make it easier to use while driving. Not
| that you'd use it for much when you're driving anyway though,
| since most functionality is locked unless you're parked. I'd
| prefer a touch screen because the only time I want to use it is
| for plugging in destination names which is currently very slow
| with the joystick. In my case, I feel that a touch screen would
| not increase my risk of being hurt.
|
| I think the author is right that using touch-screens while
| driving is extremely distracting, but I think the point of (many)
| of them is to be used when you're not driving.
|
| Going onto the whole idea of "assault of information", I find as
| a driver that I would ideally _never_ take my eyes off the road
| except to look at mirrors. This is why I cannot believe that some
| cars have absurdly complicated dashboards and dashboard
| /infotainment combinations (e.g. Audi). I tell people that my
| cars HUD is one of the best safety features ever made for this
| reason - because I keep my eyes on the road while getting info
| about my speed, gas usage, driving instructions. I don't ever
| look at the infotainment or dashboard when driving because of
| this HUD.
|
| I'm extremely excited to see the new AR HUDs coming from the
| Germans and I'm increasingly frustrated that Tesla won't make
| HUDs and that aftermarket options for them suck. It seems that
| few have similar driving experiences to myself which honestly
| shocks me.
| derekp7 wrote:
| If the HUD covers part of the view of the road, I don't like
| it. If it covers part of the view of the hood (i.e., it is
| lower), then is it really different then having the dash
| designed so it sits higher up and you don't see your hood?
| fatnoah wrote:
| >I tell people that my cars HUD is one of the best safety
| features ever made for this reason
|
| Interesting, I have the opposite take. I feel like the HUD in
| my car offers me a constant flow of information, but it's
| always in my field of view and is a distraction as a result of
| it. With information restricted to my instrument cluster, it's
| not in the way and easy to ignore.
|
| Maybe it's because I live in a more urban area, but I don't
| need to constantly be aware of my speed because it's mostly
| limited by traffic and road geometry.
| mey wrote:
| Every-time this comes up, I feel compelled to bring up Mazda's
| stance since at least 2019 to purge touch screens from their
| cars.
|
| https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1121372_why-mazda-is-pur...
|
| Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20200335
| not_knuth wrote:
| Great thread. Looks like HN has decently chewed on this topic
| before. Thanks for sharing!
| hyperrail wrote:
| According to Consumer Reports, Mazda's non-touch-screen
| infotainment controls are actually not good at all:
|
| * https://www.consumerreports.org/infotainment-systems/how-
| to-...
|
| > _Despite selling some vehicles with high ratings in other
| categories, Audi, Honda, Infiniti, Mazda, Mercedes-Benz, Mini,
| Subaru, and Toyota all joined Lexus at the bottom of our
| satisfaction ratings when it came to ease of use for in-car
| electronics._
|
| * https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/mazda/3/2021/road-test/
| (requires subscription):
|
| > _The infotainment screen mounted in the center of the dash
| isn't a touch screen; users must adjust audio and infotainment
| features using steering wheel controls or the rotary controller
| and buttons mounted between the front seats. Unfortunately,
| some steering wheel controls are hard to see and difficult to
| use because they have silver text on a silver background. The
| rotary knob and buttons in the center console are also
| challenging to use since many of the buttons are difficult to
| see at a glance, and the lack of an easy-to-decipher menu
| structure forces drivers to spend too long looking at the
| controls instead of the road._
|
| As can be seen from your first link, the main control method is
| a jog-wheel knob at your knee next to the gear shift lever,
| mounted facing up, so you turn it left and right to select
| things and push in to "click"/confirm. CR says that with this
| control system, and the menu hierarchies that Mazda's UI makes
| you go through, you end up _more_ distracted than with the
| better touch-screen systems they review.
| pdimitar wrote:
| That X is not good does not automatically mean that Y is
| better.
|
| Touchscreens in cars are _really_ distracting. I had to yell
| to an acquaintance of mine once -- they were trying to change
| the music while going with 40-50km /h in a suburban area and
| she almost hit a dog. The reason? Cheap touchscreen that
| doesn't register half the touches. But it wouldn't matter for
| the poor creature that gets one ton of steel driven through
| them.
|
| Maybe the car infotainment system's controls belong to the
| steering wheel? Or a bunch of extra levers? Who knows, but
| IMO the touchscreens aren't that good as well. The jury is
| still out on what's the best way of approaching this.
| thesuitonym wrote:
| The idea is right, but the implementation doesn't seem great.
| I can't judge it fairly, because I've never used it, but
| based on your description, and the article, I completely
| believe that the way Mazda is going about this is horrible.
|
| >Mazda is looking to add more simple, tactile controls into
| the cars. A quick tilt of the volume knob to the right or
| left goes forward or back single tracks
|
| Ugh, if only there were some kind of dedicated control for
| some of these things that are being moved out of
| touchscreens. Something you can just tap on, sort of the way
| you do with touchscreens, but that never moves or changes, so
| you can tap it without looking.
|
| Boy whoever invents that will be a billionaire!
| jjoonathan wrote:
| Advanced tactile feedback technology!
| otherme123 wrote:
| I have a Mazda, and the system works perfectly. You have to
| get used to it (maybe a week of use), and after that is
| like using a trackball. Do you need to look at your mouse
| to locate the buttons or the wheel? The Mazda knob is
| exactly the same: left is media, central is home, right is
| navigation.
|
| Obviously, if you only test drive the car for an hour, you
| cannot get used to it, and you have to look down. Same as
| you had to look at your mouse the first time you used it.
| mrtksn wrote:
| I just wanted to see how the things evolved and apparently in
| 2021 some new Mazda's DO HAVE touchscreen infotainment:
| https://youtu.be/eIfP2vcZD7M?t=582
|
| Other Mazda's don't: https://youtu.be/z5k5Oqfyn2Y?t=510
| CraigJPerry wrote:
| That's optional touch - which is ideal, best of both worlds
| but there is a BMW iDrive still controller between the
| passengers for the screen, you can see it later in the video
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=582&v=eIfP2vcZD7M&feature=yo.
| ..
| thedrbrian wrote:
| That's because the 6 is the old/current 6 with the old
| nav/infotainment whereas the CX-5 is new. Once the new
| generation mazda6 comes out I assume it'll get updated to the
| new dash/infotainment.
| seniorgarcia wrote:
| As someone currently shopping for a new car, the current
| CX-5, the current MX-5 and the Mazda 6 come with a
| touchscreen setup.
| feross wrote:
| On the Mazda MX-5 2020 the touch screen only works when the
| car is not in motion. When in motion, you have to use their
| "Command Controller" knob that's near the shifter.
| rsj_hn wrote:
| I'm really impressed with Mazda, they seem to be staying on the
| right side of several trends where the industry is going in the
| other direction. They still make cars that a bit more
| responsive whereas the industry is making either luxury
| floaters or crazy horsepower monsters. Good handling, they
| avoid CVT and have a very practical approach to tech. If anyone
| is a fan of MotoMan, he's done some cool deep dives:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMke4Fl4gyw
|
| (Sorry if this sounds like an ad, I'm not affiliated with them
| but have been scouting for a car recently.)
| surround wrote:
| The low-end 2019 Nissan Versa has hand crank windows, manual
| locks, manual transmission... yet still has a touch screen,
| because state law requires a back-up camera.
| einpoklum wrote:
| Suggestion to author:
|
| Consider also being done with not avoiding double negatives. If
| you don't fail to see what I mean.
| Sodman wrote:
| One of the biggest problems I have with these touchscreens is
| that, as they're generally included to reduce unit cost for the
| car manufacturer, they also usually have woefully underpowered
| hardware backing them.
|
| When I glance at my display after an audio cue and there's a one-
| button option to change to a faster route thanks to real time
| traffic data, there's an _enormous_ difference between quickly
| tapping that button and having it work as expected, vs me
| forcefully jabbing the screen repeatedly (while staring at it)
| because the processor is so overwhelmed running the maps app that
| the display polling isn 't registering my finger. You can argue
| that the touchscreen is a danger either way, but one of these two
| scenarios is much worse than the other.
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