[HN Gopher] In the '80s, she was a video game pioneer. Today, no...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       In the '80s, she was a video game pioneer. Today, no one can find
       her
        
       Author : rbanffy
       Score  : 127 points
       Date   : 2021-02-23 11:45 UTC (11 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.polygon.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.polygon.com)
        
       | forgotmypw17 wrote:
       | http://archive.is/CFrRo
        
       | pjungwir wrote:
       | One of my favorite games, _Below the Root_ , has not one but two
       | named playable female characters: Genaa and Pomma. It's from
       | 1984, so only 2 years after the game in this article. I played it
       | on a Tandy 1000.
       | 
       | It was a trailblazer in all kinds of ways: a side-"scrolling"
       | adventure type game where you have to explore, talk to people,
       | gather inventory, raise your skills, and solve puzzles. You can
       | play as either of two rival factions. As you play you can really
       | feel the depth of world-building and backstory. There is no set
       | order to do the various things required to win. You can play any
       | of five characters, who have different levels of strength and
       | "spirit skill". And it did it all with four colors and a single
       | joystick button. It is at least as innovative as King's Quest
       | (also 1984), maybe more.
       | 
       | It has an intro sequence that explains the goal, but it's quite
       | terse, so you might want to read the Wikipedia page. The game was
       | commissioned by a fantasy author and intended to be a sequel to
       | one of her books.
       | 
       | You can run it on dosbox. I highly recommend trying it out!
        
         | rabidrat wrote:
         | I love this game! If you haven't read the trilogy that inspired
         | the game, I recommend it. I only got to reading it a few years
         | ago, but was impressed by how much of the book world and the
         | game world naturally intersected. I assumed that the shuba (a
         | garment that allows you to glide between trees) was an offhand
         | item in the books that became a central game mechanic out of
         | necessity, but it turns out that it's a major part of the books
         | too!
         | 
         | Anyway, yes, it's a great game. The C64 version is better than
         | the DOS version (better graphics, polyphonic sound), but a
         | little harder to get hold of. Worth playing on any platform as
         | a piece of adventure game history (and much better than the
         | original King's Quest in my opinion).
        
         | kbelder wrote:
         | This is a strong memory. Very sophisticated, compared to other
         | games of the time.
        
           | dudleypippin wrote:
           | I have a visceral memory of a jump that I Just Couldn't GET
           | and the joy of finally hitting it. Looks like you can play
           | online here: https://classicreload.com/below-the-root.html
        
       | WarOnPrivacy wrote:
       | This should be safe to post. There was a Ban Thi Tran who died in
       | Dallas on Aug 4 1984. No other info given.
       | 
       | Apollo was in Richardson, just N of Dallas.
        
         | dleslie wrote:
         | There's not a whole lot of marriages with the Tran last name
         | between '82 and '90, in Texas; it could be that "Ban" was a
         | pseudonym and her given name was something else.
         | 
         | IE, my grandmother received, and signed, checks as Doris and
         | yet her given name was something else entirely.
        
         | jonathankoren wrote:
         | Is everyone forgetting the part where "Ban Tran" is a very
         | common name?
         | 
         | I keep thinking about when my wife searches for herself, she
         | found a over a hundred people with her name in Santa Clara
         | county alone.
        
         | MisterTea wrote:
         | Apt handle for the type of poor behavior you are condoning.
        
           | ihuman wrote:
           | Don't obituaries make that info public?
        
           | renewiltord wrote:
           | Post-mortem privacy is such nonsense. The privacy rights of
           | the surviving members of the family are relevant, as well as
           | anyone involved with the dead but dead people are not people.
           | The idea that they have rights is ridiculous.
        
             | exporectomy wrote:
             | Can't see what you're replying to but how we treat dead
             | people is important because it influences our behavior
             | knowing how we will be treated once we die. What if all our
             | online history known to Google/Facebook/ad networks/etc. is
             | suddenly dumped on our Facebook page and turned public so
             | the day we die, everyone who knew us can see what naughty
             | things we searched for in our entire life? People will
             | alter their behavior if such non-privacy was expected
             | because people do care about how they will be perceived
             | after they die.
             | 
             | Once you're so far back in history that nobody knew you
             | except from your post-death public record, then maybe it's
             | not the same?
        
           | clankyclanker wrote:
           | I don't think that reposting a thirty year old public death
           | notice really counts as a privacy invasion.
           | 
           | I'm not sure where the line is, but I don't think that's it.
        
             | MisterTea wrote:
             | My point is why the need to hunt someone down? And yes,
             | that is how I view it, a hunt. That isn't a comfortable
             | feeling. I get that the info is harmless but the OP just
             | couldn't help themselves but join in what I consider is a
             | gross invasion of someones life, regardless of the persons
             | state of living. And many here share the same opinion.
             | 
             | If I were on the receiving end of such a manhunt,
             | discovering that numerous random strangers on the internet
             | crowd hunted me, I would be sick to my stomach.
        
       | david_draco wrote:
       | Back in the 80s, I was a very famous video game pioneer ... I'm
       | Ban Tran, Ban Tran the geek don't act like you don't know
        
         | andi999 wrote:
         | Wait, she is now Diane?
        
           | anotheryou wrote:
           | I'm confused about your and the parent message...
        
             | ev1 wrote:
             | It's the opening theme to a famous series, Bojack Horseman.
        
       | Fiahil wrote:
       | Was she part of the inspiration behind _Halt and Catch Fire_'s
       | Cameron ?
        
       | Jeema101 wrote:
       | The atariage.com forums might be the place to go if the author
       | hasn't tried that already. There's a number of old-timers who
       | occasionally pop in on the forums, as well as a bunch of people
       | who just seem to know a lot in general about the history of Atari
       | games and the companies who made them.
       | 
       | Edit: Nevermind, as I see one of the links in the article is
       | actually to a forum post there!
        
       | argvargc wrote:
       | As per article comments, Wabbit is playable online here:
       | 
       | http://playoldgames.org/wabbit-a26
        
       | armandososa wrote:
       | I gotta say, women losing their names when they get married is a
       | pretty backwards practice. My wife is not my sister, nor my
       | property, why should she take my name and lose her identity?
        
         | undefined1 wrote:
         | no one has to do that. whether you want to share a last name is
         | a discussion for you and your wife. if you decide to, it can be
         | hers, yours, a combination, or even a made up name that you
         | both like.
        
         | rossdavidh wrote:
         | Well, given that it is entirely optional and plenty of women
         | choose one and plenty of women choose the other, I don't think
         | it's something we need to call "backwards", if a woman chooses
         | to do it (as plenty of women still do).
        
           | cat199 wrote:
           | clearly the women choosing to do this are simply not 'woke'
           | enough, and OP knows better, obviously
        
         | jandrese wrote:
         | It's not great, but the alternatives aren't much better.
         | Hyphenated last names don't scale and are awkward to begin
         | with. Having the man take her last name has all of the same
         | problems. Coming up with a completely new family name is more
         | fair but also more work. Marrying only people with the same
         | family name is too incestual.
        
           | Jweb_Guru wrote:
           | Having children take one name or the other does not require
           | changing one's own name.
        
             | jandrese wrote:
             | Having different last names comes with its own problems.
             | One of which will be people asking you when you're going to
             | be married. The other is forms that assume married couples
             | have the same last name.
             | 
             | There's that awkward moment where the announcer goes "Mr.
             | and Mrs... Uh. <both their names>"
        
               | swaits wrote:
               | Being married to a woman with her own last name, and a
               | stepdaughter with her own last name, I can tell you that
               | none of what you describe is really a problem.
               | 
               | In fact, it's worked well enough for us that if we were
               | to have another child we'd consider giving him or her a
               | different last name again instead of picking one of the
               | three we already have.
        
               | cmrdporcupine wrote:
               | Indeed we haven't run into many problems. Maybe an
               | annoyance now and then such as a relative (usually one of
               | hers, ironically) that assumes she has my last name and
               | sends cards or letters to Mrs XXX. In fact some of them
               | know she kept her maiden name but are conservative enough
               | to find this somehow offensive enough that they give her
               | my last name. (Again, weird, what's wrong with the last
               | name she shares with them.)
               | 
               | (The only reason we sometimes wish she'd change her name
               | is that hers is extremely common, and so she's constantly
               | getting mixups with other people with the same name and
               | has to sign things every time we buy a house or get a
               | loan, etc. to say she isn't that other XXX YYY that has
               | the bad credit rating or outstanding loan or criminal
               | record, etc.)
        
               | michaericalribo wrote:
               | Wow! I'd argue it's offensive--or at least quite rude--to
               | willfully ignore someone's name. What gives someone else
               | the right to determine what's best for me? How
               | patronizing!
        
               | cmrdporcupine wrote:
               | Yep. And her own father was a bit put off by her choice.
               | Weird, as its his own name she's keeping. Okay, well,
               | probably the name of a slaveholding ancestor in the
               | south, actually, but I doubt that factors into any of his
               | thoughts.
               | 
               | What's weird is these are people with generally left-wing
               | political views, and socially liberal on most things. But
               | on women's issues, pretty backwards. It weirds me out.
        
               | michaericalribo wrote:
               | I'll admit that I consider myself "generally left-
               | wing...and social liberally", and it was a real cognitive
               | disconnect when my wife didn't want to take my
               | name...It's such an ingrained tradition, so it required
               | serious self-reflection to get to the bottom of my own
               | reaction.
        
               | michaericalribo wrote:
               | Frankly, why would I care if it confuses someone else? My
               | spouse and I don't make important decisions vis-a-vis our
               | relationship, on the basis of other people's convenience.
               | 
               | The "problems" you describe are just...nonexistent, and
               | really not a big deal. I have literally never encountered
               | confusion about our marital status, problems with forms,
               | or difficulty being introduced.
        
           | M277 wrote:
           | What's wrong with the wife not changing her last name? Why
           | does there have to be change?
           | 
           | Islam does it, and there are no issues at all.
        
             | zamadatix wrote:
             | Nothing "wrong" with it and there aren't any "issues" in
             | that you won't drop to the ground scratching your head on
             | what to do in a certain situation if you don't change your
             | name. That doesn't mean there aren't advantages to
             | normalizing last names in a household though.
             | 
             | I'm currently engaged and plan on taking her last name
             | after the wedding. Life would go on very large the same way
             | if I didn't the same way it will if I do. The whole problem
             | is overblown.
        
             | bipson wrote:
             | There are several issues in real life if you live in a
             | society where it is the norm.
             | 
             | The very least when you have kids and their teachers or any
             | official you encounter _assume_ that the parents have the
             | same name as the kids. (This can 't be your kid!)
             | 
             | We know a couple where she had hyphenated surnames. Almost
             | always confused the officials, colleagues and friends when
             | they lived in Switzerland.
             | 
             | We decided against my wife _not_ changing her name, since
             | it was not worth the troubles.
        
               | M277 wrote:
               | Oh, yes, I understand now.
               | 
               | The original post was talking about changing surnames in
               | general so I thought that it was criticising the norm,
               | and my reply was in similar fashion - "why does the norm
               | exist?"
               | 
               | Should have clarified, sorry. It [not changing names]
               | really wouldn't work out well if it wasn't the norm in
               | place as you say, there are plenty of issues that could
               | happen.
        
             | michaericalribo wrote:
             | Likewise, women in China typically / often do not take
             | their husband's name.
        
               | thaumasiotes wrote:
               | Do they ever? There is a female title that applies to the
               | husband's name rather than the wife's name -- when Song
               | Mei Ling  marries Jiang Jie Shi , she can be referred to
               | as Jiang Fu Ren , but not Song Fu Ren  -- but that's a
               | fact about the usage of the title, not the woman's name.
        
               | michaericalribo wrote:
               | I can't claim to be authoritative on cultural practices
               | in China, so I hedged my language so I wasn't
               | overreaching :) And there's usually _some_ exception to
               | _every_ rule...
               | 
               | That's really interesting! Can you explain it a little
               | more? I can't read Chinese, so it's a bit opaque what's
               | going on...
        
               | thaumasiotes wrote:
               | I can't claim to be authoritative either, but it's what I
               | read. I feel fairly safe in claiming that there is no
               | tradition of women changing their names on marriage,
               | though.
               | 
               | For the example, I used the names of two historical
               | people who did historically marry; I picked them based on
               | Soong Mei-ling being mentioned in
               | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_titles#Women ,
               | under the title I wanted to talk about.
               | 
               | For Chinese address in general, the example posits a
               | woman named Song Mei Ling  (
               | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soong_Mei-ling ), whose
               | family name is Song  and whose personal name is Mei Ling
               | , marrying a man named Jiang Jie Shi  (
               | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiang_Kai-shek ), whose
               | family name is Jiang  and whose personal name is Jie Shi
               | .
               | 
               | Chinese titles appear after the noun being titled, not
               | before. So the ordinary address for Song Mei Ling
               | (before or after she marries[1]) is Song Xiao Jie  ("Ms.
               | Song"), where Xiao Jie  is the courtesy title for women,
               | and the ordinary address for Jiang Jie Shi  is Jiang Xian
               | Sheng  ("Mr. Jiang"), with Xian Sheng  being the courtesy
               | title for men.
               | 
               | The Fu Ren  ("Lady") title is unusual; it is applied to
               | the name of the woman's husband, not to the name of the
               | woman herself. (Compare an American letter addressed to
               | e.g. "Mr. and Mrs. John Smith".) Thus, Jiang Jie Shi 's
               | wife can be referred to as Jiang Fu Ren , regardless of
               | what her name might be.
               | 
               | Wikipedia suggests that the title Tai Tai  ("wife") is
               | also applied to the husband's name.
               | 
               | [1] I'm following the convention of government forms
               | here, in which Xiao Jie  and Xian Sheng  are opposed
               | options for how the form addresses you, and Nu Shi
               | doesn't appear. The wikipedia section linked above states
               | that Xiao Jie  applies to unmarried women and Nu Shi
               | applies to married women. My -- limited -- understanding
               | is different; I see Nu Shi  as being used to convey a
               | higher degree of respect, such as in professional
               | communications. For example, I was once advised by a
               | Chinese person to address the mother of a child I was
               | tutoring as Meng Xiao Jie ; I can only assume that the
               | use of Xiao Jie  did not convey the fairly insulting
               | impression that I believed she was unmarried.
        
         | thaumasiotes wrote:
         | > I gotta say, women losing their names when they get married
         | is a pretty backwards practice.
         | 
         | The traditional practice as I learned it doesn't involve this.
         | Instead, where boys are given three names at birth, girls are
         | given two in the expectation that they will one day marry.
         | Then, when Susan Floyd marries John Robert Sinclair, she
         | becomes Susan Floyd Sinclair.
         | 
         | Compare Mary Ann Maxwell marrying William Henry Gates to become
         | Mary Maxwell Gates.
        
         | recursive wrote:
         | > why should she take my name and lose her identity?
         | 
         | You should probably ask her. No one is forced to change their
         | name, but some do.
        
           | adamredwoods wrote:
           | I told my wife she did not have to change her name, but she
           | chose to because she wanted to feel part of a family, and
           | enjoyed a new identity.
        
       | abraxas wrote:
       | Reminds me of that time in the 90's when Matthew Smith of the
       | Manic Miner/Jet Set Willy fame went "missing". Unfortunately his
       | life story post JSW wasn't a happy one as he spent most years in
       | the throes of drug addiction.
        
       | kleiba wrote:
       | ...and there's not much more in that story than there is in the
       | headline.
        
         | the_af wrote:
         | I found it to be a pretty interesting article. I wasn't aware
         | of either the documentary project itself or of the game.
        
         | NelsonMinar wrote:
         | except a brief history of female characters in video games, and
         | screenshots of a game I'd never heard of and detailed
         | descriptions of what made it interesting. Also commentary on
         | the difficulty of doing video game history. And a full focus on
         | women game designers.
        
       | exporectomy wrote:
       | When the emphasis is on her gender, it's hard to tell if she's
       | actually significant for her work - Wabbit which itself is
       | significant mainly for having a female character? Or just for
       | having an unusual body type. If the latter, then does it really
       | matter? The world is full of engineers and entrepreneurs who
       | nobody knows about and don't get their credits written on the
       | things they build.
        
       | the_af wrote:
       | Interesting article, and I always find the history of early
       | computer games fascinating (also see: Halcyon Days, freely
       | available online: https://dadgum.com/halcyon/)
       | 
       | However, what strikes me the most of this article is actually in
       | the comments section...
       | 
       | ... people don't know who Roberta Williams is, or what Sierra
       | Online was!? In a videogame website?
       | 
       | Wow. How quick we videogame fans are to forget our own history.
       | This reminds me of the multiple times I've seen people here on HN
       | ask who Carmack was and why it mattered what he had to say about
       | tech.
        
         | sleepybrett wrote:
         | Danielle Bunten Berry
         | 
         | MULE, Seven Cities of Gold, Heart of Africa > the entire sierra
         | catalog
        
           | the_af wrote:
           | This isn't a contest. Yes, I know who Dani Bunten (RIP) was,
           | and it was a huge deal. I suspect that, similarly, these
           | people who don't know Roberta Williams don't know about Dani
           | either.
           | 
           | > _MULE, Seven Cities of Gold, Heart of Africa > the entire
           | sierra catalog_
           | 
           | Those are awesome, groundbreaking games, and the technical
           | limitations they had to work around are _very_ interesting.
           | However, the entire Sierra catalog, and in particular the
           | first two Space Quest games (text interfaces!) hold a special
           | place in my heart. I learned English with them. So I must
           | respectfully disagree :)
        
         | rbanffy wrote:
         | > ... people don't know who Roberta Williams is, or what Sierra
         | Online was!? In a videogame website?
         | 
         | A lot of these people are interested in playing games, not on
         | history. Sadly, lots of people seem to be unbothered by being
         | ignorant of the history of their own favorite pastimes.
        
           | treis wrote:
           | Why is that sad? Can't I just mow down some pedestrians in
           | GTA without a guilt trip?
        
         | giobox wrote:
         | Time marches on. There's a similar phenomenon in the "top n
         | games of all time" articles - its always what matters to the
         | generation writing it.
         | 
         | Your John Carmack example betrays our age. His most important
         | contributions to gaming (at least from a history perspective)
         | was arguably early 90s Shareware/Apogee/Id era almost 30 years
         | ago now, I don't expect my kids to know who he is. Heck, why
         | would a young gamer even know what "shareware" was? The idea of
         | sharing and distribution at large scale via end users cloning
         | physical media (floppies) is pretty much absurd in 2020s and of
         | little use to know, despite being hugely important to Carmack's
         | early successes.
         | 
         | People just want to play fun games and that's fine. We
         | shouldn't discourage it on basis you "don't appreciate the
         | history properly" or be ashamed of this.
        
           | the_af wrote:
           | I get your points, however:
           | 
           | > _Your John Carmack example betrays our age. His most
           | important contributions to gaming (at least from a history
           | perspective) was early 90s Shareware /Apogee/Id era almost 30
           | years ago now, I don't expect my kids to know who he is._
           | 
           | First, Carmack is still relevant today. He still writes about
           | tech, and he still takes part in groundbreaking tech
           | developments. Here is for example a headline from 2019:
           | https://www.engadget.com/2019-11-13-john-carmack-agi.html
           | 
           | It's relevant because he is a proven achiever, not just a
           | "visionary" like we're used to in this industry. I'm
           | similarly starting to read about people in tech/software who
           | don't know who Stallman is! And I suppose eventually this
           | will happen to Torvalds as well.
           | 
           | Second, are readers of HN "kids"? I used Carmack as an
           | example of someone who readers here on HN occasionally don't
           | know.
           | 
           | > _People just want to play fun games and that 's fine. We
           | shouldn't discourage it on basis you "don't appreciate the
           | history properly" or be ashamed of this._
           | 
           | That's ok. However, this happened in the comments section of
           | a website which also has commentary and articles beyond "just
           | playing games", and specifically in an article about
           | videogame history. And Roberta Williams was a _huge_
           | influence. I suppose in 30 years people will similarly ask,
           | "Nintendo _what_? ". It's sad, though I suppose inevitable.
           | 
           | ---
           | 
           | edit: giobox, I don't know why you got downvoted, yours was a
           | polite response. I upvoted your comment because I value the
           | conversation.
        
           | doc_gunthrop wrote:
           | John Carmack's contribution to the field of video games was
           | _revolutionary_. He was the pioneer who brought smooth side-
           | scrolling to PC gaming (e.g. Commander Keen) as well as 3D
           | graphics to video games (e.g. Wolfenstein 3D, Doom).
           | 
           | Seeing as how FPS games are one of the biggest (if not the
           | biggest) genre of video gaming out there, Carmack has had an
           | immeasurably massive impact on the industry.
           | 
           | It's fine if people want to just play games, but don't
           | belittle the titan whose shoulder countless subsequent
           | developers have stood atop.
        
       | gedy wrote:
       | Many/most? Viet immigrants also take on English first names,
       | which could also complicate this search.
        
       | flohofwoe wrote:
       | Reminds me of this story (not gaming but music related):
       | 
       | https://pitchfork.com/thepitch/how-a-long-lost-indian-disco-...
        
       | WalterGR wrote:
       | To get to the point in the article where it introduces the
       | subject, scroll about half-way down or search for "Why look for
       | Ban Tran in the first place?"
        
         | MayeulC wrote:
         | Yeah, this article is badly written. It doesn't even explicitly
         | says that Ban Tran worked on Wabbit, unless I missed it.
         | 
         | And that's the gist of it: someone making a documentary on
         | female video game protagonists went looking for a developer of
         | Wabbit, which can be considered (one of) the first of that
         | category.
        
           | dlvktrsh wrote:
           | I'm so sick of people making Blog posts/articles just for the
           | sake of it or with some alternate motive like promoting
           | something they're working on or trying to sell.
           | 
           | almost everything I read is of similar nature, it's getting
           | quite exhaustive
        
             | HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
             | > just for the sake of it or with some alternate motive
             | 
             | What other possibilities are there?
        
               | MayeulC wrote:
               | I feel like most of these articles want you to remain on
               | the same page while you are scrolling so that they can
               | display more ads to you.
        
       | KaiserPro wrote:
       | If she wants to be found, she'll let us know. Lets not unleash a
       | bunch of obsessive weirdos on her, she's probably got good
       | reasons to not be about in "public"
        
         | simplicio wrote:
         | I don't think there's much reason to think she's aware anyone
         | is looking for her, or that she's particularly trying to
         | "hide". It sounds like she just dropped out of the industry 30+
         | years ago and none of her former colleges kept in touch.
        
       | jgrahamc wrote:
       | Maybe she doesn't want to be found and has a different life now
       | and wants to live that life. Without people on the Internet
       | obsessing.
        
         | ev1 wrote:
         | Seriously, why is this kind of harassment and stalking
         | acceptable in any way? Why on earth is Polygon encouraging this
         | BS?
         | 
         | Go look at virtually any female video game (staff, developer,
         | etc) on Twitter and you'll immediately see numerous reasons
         | based on the type of audience they get.
        
           | the_af wrote:
           | > _why is this kind of harassment and stalking acceptable in
           | any way_
           | 
           | I don't think someone making a documentary about pioneers in
           | any given subject -- in this case, women and female
           | characters in early videogames -- would be engaging in
           | "harassment and stalking" because he's trying to contact said
           | pioneers who might still be alive. Now, if once contacted the
           | subject said she didn't want to appear in the documentary,
           | her wish must be respected. But without contacting her, how
           | can the documentary maker know?
        
           | undefined1 wrote:
           | why are you assuming harassment and pushing a damsel in
           | distress narrative?
        
           | LocalH wrote:
           | Documenting that someone did something pioneering in their
           | field is not harassment and stalking, good lord.
        
             | andi999 wrote:
             | But they put the bar really low. Of course you can try to
             | find that person, and have an interview, but a public
             | search? I mean if Wozniak would have disappeared in the
             | 80s, ok, but a random computer game designer?
        
               | the_af wrote:
               | So is your argument that this particular person, Ban
               | Tran, is not noteworthy enough and therefore not worth
               | tracking down for a documentary about women in
               | videogames?
               | 
               | What part of the article in particular do you think puts
               | "the bar really low"? I don't see it. It seems respectful
               | and not at all intrusive, well within the subject matter
               | and not including extraneous or irrelevant personal
               | information.
        
           | ivanbakel wrote:
           | How is the behaviour described in the article stalking or
           | harassment?
        
             | Cerium wrote:
             | If someone want's a public presence they can have one. If
             | there is not an obvious way to contact someone it can be
             | assumed to be on purpose.
        
               | ivanbakel wrote:
               | But there _is_ an obvious way to contact all the people
               | who are being sent letters - they are in the white pages.
               | What part of sending someone a letter to a publicly-
               | listed address constitutes stalking or harassment?
        
               | embeddedsystems wrote:
               | The white pages should not even exist. You're using an
               | unwanted, non opt-in, forced privacy violation as a
               | reason.
               | 
               | You exist in Experian, does that mean that automatically
               | gives me the right to bother you and tell people online
               | to bother you on socia lmedia?
        
               | dleslie wrote:
               | People without landlines were never listed in the white
               | pages; you opted in by purchasing a phone, and could opt
               | out at the time of purchase and any time thereafter.
               | Perhaps it was a bad default, but avoiding being listed
               | was an accessible option.
        
               | embeddedsystems wrote:
               | Unfortunately, this isn't the case in 2010+, where the WP
               | site purchases tons of info from data brokers to sell.
               | You don't need a landline or to opt in.
        
               | dleslie wrote:
               | That sounds like it might be prohibited by EU and
               | Canadian law.
        
               | embeddedsystems wrote:
               | I do a bunch of stuff in the gaming space, and WP has
               | been one of the bigger causes of pain for streamers.
               | Often separate 2FA-only - to prevent account hijacks -
               | cellphones that are paid monthly and used nowhere else
               | still show up, and the result is attempted murder (via
               | swatting). This happens so frequently it's absurd.
               | 
               | None of this is opt in, all of it is extremely unwanted,
               | and those companies really should not exist.
        
               | dleslie wrote:
               | How are the swatters getting access to the phone number
               | if it's used nowhere else?
               | 
               | Disclaimer: I also work in gaming, and deal with streamer
               | security.
        
               | embeddedsystems wrote:
               | WP's site helpfully tries to show "this person's other
               | phone numbers". My guess is it's acquired via credit
               | institutions when you use that number for 2FA with a bank
               | (since honestly, what the hell, virtually no bank
               | supports U2F/TOTP 2FA and demand phone numbers, ugh)
               | 
               | I don't know how they match it in the backend, often it's
               | wrong (and results in innocent parties being attacked).
               | 
               | I usually recommend completely prepaid lines for this to
               | prevent hijackers from using the good old social
               | engineering trick to hijack their accounts via customer
               | service by providing last 4 of various identifiers. But
               | these still eventually show up after you add the number
               | to enough 'traditional' accounts. One of my friends
               | (female, streamer) has gotten police at her house at 3 am
               | with guns drawn so many times it's ridiculous. At least
               | in many parts of, if not the entire US, trying to swat
               | someone is legitimately trying to do your hardest to
               | murder them.
               | 
               | This honestly should be made illegal, there is no reason
               | for these services to exist, or for public records to be
               | made available at all other than rate limited, in person
               | without the ability to take a copy. Exceptions can be
               | made for elected officials.
        
               | dleslie wrote:
               | That's... Wow, kinda absurd.
               | 
               | I checked and it appears they lack Canadian data; and so
               | perhaps I was correct in presuming that such egregious
               | breaching of personal privacy would be troublesome up
               | here. Or maybe WP just doesn't have the data.
               | 
               | FWIW, there are cheap providers of SMS over SIP, now. I
               | have a DID through voip.ms that can send and receive SMS,
               | and it's cheap.
        
               | embeddedsystems wrote:
               | Yes, these are blocked at most services already.
               | Definitely blocked by banks. Need short code ability to
               | be used too.
        
               | tssva wrote:
               | Opting out usually involved having to pay a fee.
        
           | whatshisface wrote:
           | Journalists have a social norm that it's okay to investigate
           | people and publish their details, and as the rest of us come
           | around to seeing that as invasive and rude, they're lagging a
           | bit behind. (See also: The slate star codex guy.)
        
             | the_af wrote:
             | The author of the article didn't really publish any details
             | about Ban Tran's life except she worked at this videogame
             | company about 40 years ago and took part in the development
             | of this game Wabbit. Doesn't seem intrusive to me. There's
             | no real personal information, and I'd like to think this
             | documentary maker would ask Ban Tran for permission to
             | publish more details if he ever manages to contact her.
             | 
             | Let's not go for the pitch forks so readily, shall we?
        
             | mcherm wrote:
             | No, journalists do NOT have that norm. Which is why the NY
             | Times' behavior in the case you refer to was criticized in
             | many journalism circles.
             | 
             | [1] https://www.newyorker.com/culture/annals-of-
             | inquiry/slate-st...
             | 
             | [2] https://reason.com/2020/06/24/slate-star-codex-dox-
             | scott-ale...
             | 
             | [3] https://arcdigital.media/slate-star-codex-and-the-gray-
             | ladys...
        
             | chokeartist wrote:
             | No, journalists are parasites. Nothing different than a
             | Chatty Cathy in high-school.
        
             | dspillett wrote:
             | If I ever get unwanted press attention (not likely, they
             | would be _really_ dredging the barrel if anything in my
             | life was deemed interesting enough!) and that "peoples
             | right to know" argument is used as a defence, I'm
             | immediately hiring PIs to investigate the "journalist"'s
             | life in detail and publishing the results. The people have
             | a right to know about the lives of the people defending
             | their right to know about people's lives...
        
           | chrisco255 wrote:
           | That's odd, because one of my favorite game designers from
           | the 80s was Roberta Williams, of the King's Quest series, who
           | still has a fond group of fans despite being out of the
           | industry more or less for the past couple of decades.
           | 
           | https://www.sierragamers.com/roberta-williams/
        
           | mcguire wrote:
           | This is an excellent argument if you are trying to deny that
           | women were in involved in video games in any way.
        
             | ev1 wrote:
             | Trying to get as many people as possible and asking on
             | social media to help you "find" someone these days is
             | practically a death sentence, regardless of gender.
             | Especially in gaming. I legitimately don't understand how
             | that kind of ask is _not_ harassment. You know the type of
             | people that will surface when you put that ask out there.
             | 
             | I understand the part where they would like to know a bit
             | more about it, but sending pages and pages of physical
             | letters, at least to me, I find this creepy and
             | weird/obsessive
             | 
             | The people that are accusing me of trying to remove women
             | or some 'damsel in distress' thing don't seem to understand
             | that in the gaming space, people calling in threats or
             | attempting to kill you in person because you made a
             | disliked game balance change is real, applies to males, and
             | is a baseline behaviour, or that females in gaming are
             | subject to significantly worse harassment by orders of
             | magnitude; look at the cesspool that is/was pokimanehot.
        
         | bryanlarsen wrote:
         | Since there's a clear lead to this search, sending a message to
         | the lead would probably accomplish that.
        
         | zero_deg_kevin wrote:
         | Right? You'd think that not having any kind of internet
         | presence and making no discernible effort to take credit for
         | the work would be enough of a hint. It's hard to be that low
         | profile unintentionally.
         | 
         | What does it take to be left alone? What does a person have to
         | say/do for it to be taken as anything but an invitation to
         | search for them?
        
           | jonathankoren wrote:
           | Take credit for what? A 40 year old game that almost no one
           | remembers, and even fewer bought? I don't run around arguing
           | for credit for scratching "COWS" with a compass on the inside
           | of my high school locker 30 years ago.
           | 
           | I one time found the author of the book that got me
           | interesting in programming as a kid back in the 80s, and
           | after sending her a message on FB she was happy to find
           | someone remembered it, let alone kept the book on their shelf
           | as a memento.
        
           | bryanlarsen wrote:
           | > It's hard to be that low profile unintentionally.
           | 
           | On the contrary, it'd be hard not to have an extremely low
           | profile with such a common name.
           | 
           | Add in the fact that it's been 40 years, and nobody has cared
           | one single bit for the first 35 of those years.
           | 
           | Add in the fact that she probably didn't get any author
           | credit for the game, so probably didn't even realize people
           | knew her name.
           | 
           | Remember that the internet didn't exist in the eighties. I
           | wrote a few video games in the 80s, and this is probably the
           | first acknowledgement on the internet ever that the Bryan
           | Larsen that wrote games for T&D software is this Bryan
           | Larsen. And I'm much easier to find than most, since I'm the
           | type of guy who uses my real name on forums like this.
           | 
           | I highly doubt anybody is going to care about my games, and
           | I'm sure she never thought anybody would ever care either.
           | She was wrong, but I'm sure I'm not.
        
         | crunchyfrog wrote:
         | And maybe she thinks she's been forgotten and erased but would
         | be happy to know her contribution is being recognized?
         | 
         | We'll never know which it is if we don't ask. If she asks to be
         | left alone, people should respect that but they shouldn't
         | assume that.
         | 
         | As an example, I recommend the documentary Searching for Sugar
         | Man.
        
           | tetris11 wrote:
           | He was extremely famous in Australia, and that documentary
           | deliberately failed to mention that
        
             | soperj wrote:
             | He obviously didn't know that though, since he was living
             | pretty rough, not playing, and not seeing any money from
             | that.
        
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