[HN Gopher] Noise pollution hurts the heart
___________________________________________________________________
Noise pollution hurts the heart
Author : prostoalex
Score : 209 points
Date : 2021-02-22 16:21 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theatlantic.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theatlantic.com)
| garyclarke27 wrote:
| Low frequency, wall penetrating, non-stop, droning noises like
| heat pumps (becoming pervasive with the green energy bandwagon)
| and a/c compressors are even worse than intermittent noise like
| planes or vehicles. They go all night and drive me crazy ruining
| my sleep and health.
| jborichevskiy wrote:
| The Atlantic also wrote "Why is the World so Loud?" in 2019, a
| great read into the psychological effects of noise pollution and
| the legal means by which people try and fight back.
|
| https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/11/the-end...
| dang wrote:
| Discussed at the time:
|
| _Everything Is Getting Louder_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21229540 - Oct 2019 (305
| comments)
| thebigspacefuck wrote:
| I'm guessing the Atlantic office is not a quiet place
| Dumblydorr wrote:
| The main problem seems to be stress; with loud noises comes
| stress, which is a chronic killer. There's also the correlation
| between loud noise and air pollution, loud noise and sleep
| disruption, vibrations, disruptions to daily habits,
| inconvenience of construction and transit, etc.
|
| Personal story, there were workers using an extremely loud diesel
| powered crane to redo the facade of our building. They without
| fail began work at 705, outside of a building of 100 mostly young
| people, dozens of whom were still in bed. Why do construction
| crews schedules, 3 people, get precedence over the dozens of
| residents? My personal stress and anger was peaked every time
| that crane turned on, I wanted to shout at the workers by the
| end.
|
| The coup de grace was the turning on of the crane at 630 on
| Saturday morning, someone had bribed them to lift their own
| personal AC unit on top of the building. Bathrobed me went out
| and told them a few words. They responded they wanted to get it
| done early so it wouldn't bother people. WTF!
| centimeter wrote:
| I think it's unfortunate that society has become pacified to a
| point that people generally will not use e.g. minor equipment
| sabotage to deal with nuisances like this that otherwise take
| excessive bureaucratic nonsense to combat.
| the_only_law wrote:
| With cameras everywhere and such a litigious society? The
| stress is probably less impactful in the short run compared
| to after they get fucked over by a lawsuit and/or criminal
| charge.
| 74d-fe6-2c6 wrote:
| you have to fight an asshole like an asshole - few people are
| able to pull this off. most people prefer to suffer and
| pretend to themselves to be "tolerant" instead of just
| standing up for themselves.
| TylerE wrote:
| Then you just end up with a world full of assholes. Not
| sure that's "winning".
| 74d-fe6-2c6 wrote:
| I was half waiting for this response. I don't think so.
| There is a difference between being an asshole who abuses
| and harasses other people and being a person who is
| respectful but able to improvise guerilla tactics when it
| comes to dealing with such people. There IS a difference
| between using violence for offense and for defense.
|
| You have to realize that no law, no police will protect
| you against people who have no consideration for their
| fellow citizens. There is only suffering, fleeing or
| fighting back - that's it. Make your choice.
| Abishek_Muthian wrote:
| Those who are living in the noisy environments, have you tried
| the recent noise cancelling earphones/headphones? Do you prefer
| noise cancelling or adding white noise over long period of use?
|
| Also I'm looking for noise cancellation algorithms which can add
| noise cancellation to any generic TWS earphones by processing
| through smartphone[1]. Google has added audio amplification for
| any TWS earphones through android as an accessibility feature,
| but not the noise cancellation; Is it because the latency matters
| for the latter more?
|
| [1]I've added the link to it on my profile.
| lukastr0 wrote:
| Noise cancelling, in order to work really well, requires
| extremely fast processing and microphones that are directly on
| the ears. And then you need earphones with very well-defined
| frequency characteristics - which would make any approach with
| generic earphones very difficult. And not only that, the exact
| distance between earphones and ear matters a lot - that's why
| high-end ANC headphones like the Sony ones include a
| calibration routine.
| ricardobayes wrote:
| Noise cancelling doesn't do much for impact noises which seem
| to annoy people more.
| wing-_-nuts wrote:
| This makes me wonder about 'white noise'? I finally caved and
| bought a non looping white noise machine after years of being
| woken up by car engines, ambulances, god forsaken LEAF BLOWERS
| cranking up at 7am every morning. Now, I notice I often sleep
| until my alarm.
|
| I would think that constant white noise would have a positive, or
| at least no negative impact but I have no evidence, and googling
| only pulls up intermittent noise studies.
| solinent wrote:
| It's really more about signal-to-noise ratio I'd say, if there
| are often loud noises then your brain will have to attend to
| them, if there is constantly a fan noise, for example, then your
| brain will actually focus since there is no signal--but I've
| definitely found it's best to get rid of both in almost all
| domains.
| macg333 wrote:
| I live near a busy road, close to an intersection with a
| stoplight, and have my desk at a window that faces said road. The
| constant slowing a revving of traffic around the light is very
| distracting and I run an air purifier on high throughout the day
| to stabilize the noise and drown out the shifting traffic noises.
| I have also shifted my desk so that it does not overlook the road
| and thus I don't have to watch individuals sitting at the light
| all day. These two adjustments have made a positive impact on my
| focus when I'm working.
|
| While I am excited for EVs to become more mainstream, I'm afraid
| for roads such as mine where the speed limit is 40 and people
| often drive 50+ that the quiet engine won't make much of a
| difference given the speed and that the sound of tires on the
| road and wind rushing around the vehicle are still somewhat loud
| in their own right. It makes me want to move to a more rural
| environment where the loudest noise is the refrigerator.
| UweSchmidt wrote:
| With more EVs the local pollution is going go down a lot.
| Probably also something that you'd notice more you could do a
| quick A/B test.
| 74d-fe6-2c6 wrote:
| Not sure about the long run development, though. There are
| people who install mp3-players attached to powerful speakers
| which are synchronized with the gas paddle. Those are
| insanely loud and sometimes sound more like perverted space
| ships. Meaning - for many idiots a loud car or motorcycle
| never was about enjoying the mechanics to begin with.
| carapace wrote:
| Contrarywise, get up early before dawn and listen to the birds
| sing in the day. It can give you a wonderful sense of peace and
| fulfillment.
|
| I don't have any scientific basis for it, but I suspect birdsong
| is _important_ somehow. Almost like it 's a kind of nutrient.
| DigitallyFidget wrote:
| I'd like to see an actual legitimate source of research regarding
| this. I can understand how some people are sensitive to the
| disruption of noises and how that can induce stress to those
| individuals, but the connection between noise and heart damage
| seems indirectly related.
| sjg007 wrote:
| With the new apple watches and iphones it should be possible to
| get a widespread map of noise pollution even finer grained than
| EPA monitors.
| graeme wrote:
| True. Noise gets logged in the health app from the apple
| watch, so a research study could tap into that quite easily.
| They already do that for heart rate and other metrics.
| dgrcode wrote:
| I lived in NY for 3 months and the amount of noise pollution
| there was insane. The one that I really couldn't believe was the
| J train on Brooklyn's Broadway. You could be yelling at someone
| 3ft/1m apart and they couldn't hear you because of the train
| noise.
|
| I wonder if New Yorkers realise how absolutely crazy that is.
| kiliantics wrote:
| As someone who lives in NY for 10 years, I don't know how I
| wasn't so aware before but I've lately become acutely conscious
| of how we are surrounded by near constant extreme noise
| pollution levels. Maybe most people just exist in this the way
| I used to, not thinking about it, it's so normalised that
| people can't imagine how it could be any different.
|
| The worst to me is that people have internalised this so far
| that they don't see any problem in contributing to this
| pollution themselves. Just a few weeks ago, someone on my block
| wanted to move their car at 4 am on like a Wednesday for
| whatever reason. Unfortunately for this person, someone else
| had double parked next to their car overnight (a chronically
| common issue in Brooklyn where I live for some reason). This
| neighbour somehow thought it would be perfectly reasonable to
| start honking constantly to alert the person who should move
| their car to let them out. At 4 am. When they would obviously
| be waking up many other people nearby that had nothing to do
| with the issue. In my 10 years here, that level of
| inconsideration was still pretty shocking to me.
| MetallicCloud wrote:
| I lived in NY for about 4 years, and I'm still amazed by the
| similar things I saw. For example, one day my upstairs
| neighbour didn't feel like pulling up the drive way, so she
| just parked her car in the middle of our cramped, busy one
| way street so she could run upstairs and grab some things.
|
| Of course all the people stuck trying to drive down the
| street started honking and yelling. She got back to the car,
| yelled back at them and drove off.
|
| I wouldn't consider doing something like that in a million
| years, but for native New Yorkers, it's par for the course.
| angst_ridden wrote:
| There's construction going on here, and has been for the past few
| months. That 7am powerup of the jackhammers definitely triggers a
| primitive, visceral reaction.
| nickt wrote:
| I live near a highway in Colorado which is very quiet except for
| summer weekends when the noisy motorbikes turn up and it becomes
| borderline intolerable (I'm not against motorbikes, I ride, I
| just hate the lack of consideration for others piece and quiet).
|
| On a thread about air pollution a few days ago [1] I mentioned
| sensor.community [2]. They are promoting crowdsourced
| environmental data, including noise and I'm currently building
| their DNMS so I can contribute [3].
|
| [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25915103 [2]
| https://sensor.community/en/ [3]
| https://sensor.community/en/sensors/dnms/
| neolog wrote:
| Some unicode issues on that site "a i,"
| kingnothing wrote:
| This is bringing several interesting questions to my mind.
|
| I wonder if the quality of noise has any bearing. For example, if
| you listen to pleasant music all day at work in an open plan
| office, does it have the same negative health effects as if it
| was road noise?
|
| Do the deaf suffer the same effects of being exposed to noise? As
| in, is it a physiological effect of being near something loud or
| does your brain have to process the sound?
| AltruisticGapHN wrote:
| A reminder that noise cancel headphones are amazing. If you're
| solo in the summer ypu can just watch tv with the headphones, the
| NC is really good a5 canceling the rumble from traffic, works
| great in trains too.
|
| Talking about a sony headphones above 300 eur though... but as
| someone healing trauma, it's a life changer. Its not just less
| nouse, it gives you a bubble, an island of safety. You can get an
| hour of quiet before bed...
| burntoutfire wrote:
| > Talking about a sony headphones above 300 eur though...
|
| Agree. Living in an appartment with inconsiderate neighbors, my
| Sony noise cancelling headphones are a lifesaver. (the
| bluetooth sucks btw, I mostly use them via minijack).
| bsd44 wrote:
| I used to live in a flat with a window onto the main road and I
| would violently wake up 4-6x every night and my heart rate would
| be through the roof. It's not easy to go back to sleep after
| that. I can get used to consistent noise and filter it out, but I
| can never get used to an extremely loud noise coming rapidly out
| of dead silence. Those were mostly custom exhausts, motorcycles
| and sirens.
|
| If I really needed sleep I would get myself drunk for a week
| straight, that was the only time I slept through the night. But
| the chronic lack of sleep and sleep disturbance made me generally
| angry and quick to explode at every little thing. I was really
| miserable for years. Luckily I saved enough money to move to a
| quiet cul de sac.
|
| I honestly can't wait for electric cars to come en mass, even if
| it costs the environment the same or more than ICE, because you
| can't complain about noise pollution in a way that someone would
| take you seriously. Everyone just waves their hand "it's just a
| loud car passing by", but they don't see the negative
| consequences that has for both mental and physical health.
| zemvpferreira wrote:
| I'm sorry you went through that awful situation but... was
| there anything stopping you from wearing earplugs?
|
| I religiously wear the best earplugs and face mask I can find
| to sleep. Even in controlled environments, they make a hell of
| a difference.
| learnstats2 wrote:
| When I lived on a similar main road, I ended up with some
| form of noise turned up as loud as possible (to attempt to
| mute sirens), and I wore ear plugs to minimise that, and I
| still occasionally got woken up by the vibration of a large
| or loud vehicle passing by.
| belly_joe wrote:
| I feel the sound -> stress connection palpably. Especially sudden
| loud noises like a horn honking cause me to feel upset for a long
| while after being startled.
|
| Seems like a convincing argument to me for car-free spaces,
| although honestly I just wish we had stronger social norms
| against unnecessarily using a car's horn.
| pharmakom wrote:
| A simple solution would be to require car companies to make the
| horn as loud inside the vehicle as it is outside.
|
| However, general motor traffic noise - tyres, engines,
| displaced air - is loud enough to be a serious problem anyway.
|
| I don't know how we solve this. Car dependency is so ingrained
| in our collective consciousness; is it politically feasible to
| find a way out?
| airstrike wrote:
| I have this wild pet idea that we should be have a meter
| connected to a car's horn and at the end of the year you have
| to pay a bill for the amount you used. Something like $0.10 /
| second. You'll still honk when you _need to_ but think twice
| before using it to annoy other drivers.
| learnstats2 wrote:
| > Something like $0.10 / second
|
| This is a low enough cost that I bet people would use and
| hold their horn for longer, to show their annoyance in $.
| r00fus wrote:
| The unintended consequences of this are clearly bad, but is
| there a less invasive approach? Are horns actually a required
| security item? If so, how can we prevent overuse?
| ricardobayes wrote:
| Spanish drivers surely go bankrupt after a week :) It's
| common here to toot the horn to greet a friend. And since
| everyone knows everyone, everyone toots all the time.
| dgrcode wrote:
| Well not everywhere in Spain, but definitely in some
| places. I lived in a small town where that was the case.
| Some people used to meet at a small shop just in front of
| my house and cars would honk all the time just to say hi.
|
| They would then stop the car and actually talk with them,
| but honking was somehow mandatory
| flycaliguy wrote:
| I like your thinking but the dystopian reality would be a
| wealthy elite class of honkers giving us all heart attacks.
| teddyh wrote:
| Scale it by income: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-fine
| johnchristopher wrote:
| I have stopped explaining people how my neighbor's friends
| honking when coming in and leaving drives me up the wall.
| There's the sound and then there's the rage from "that was
| fucking useless to do, you just spent 15 minutes saying goodbye
| on the doorstep, it 11PM, please be quiet" but I am the grumpy
| one. So I say nothing anymore.
|
| Fun thing is, when I am in the city, I like opening the windows
| in summer and car noises don't bother me much because it's
| normal and part of the scenery.
|
| But then I am perfectly capable of putting on my pajamas past
| 10PM, climb down the stairs from the flat to the street, knock
| on the car's window and ask the driver to turn off the engine
| because the low humming noise I hear in my bed is driving me
| insane. It's when the sound is useless and could be easily
| prevented that I get crazy. Misophonia very much also.
| dazc wrote:
| Maybe it's the lack of consideration that annoys you more
| than the noise itself?
| johnchristopher wrote:
| Definitely, should have written it down in my comment
| rather than describing my experience. This is a huge aspect
| of what grinds my gears.
|
| But there's also some speech patterns that get on my nerves
| in public transport and it's not really (at least most of
| the time) a lack of consideration from the people though
| (but it happens way less often).
| chrbr wrote:
| Yeah, that's the part that gets me too - the lack of
| consideration. I live near a hospital and have zero
| problem with the near-constant sirens, but people gunning
| their loud engines at stoplights will cause me to rage.
| kiliantics wrote:
| > I just wish we had stronger social norms against
| unnecessarily using a car
|
| I feel the same way but with the sentence stopping here
| croddin wrote:
| Electric cars are starting to get cheaper than ICE cars and
| that should contribute to making cities quieter in general.
| firstfewshells wrote:
| Well, I hope you never have to travel to India where people
| honk when the red light is on. Why? Coz they're bored and they
| "want" the light to turn green.
| frankish wrote:
| I strongly empathize. I usually wait a few seconds, then just
| flash my high beams for most situations.
| Karawebnetwork wrote:
| I wonder if ear plugs help at all. My partner snores so I wear
| them at night.
|
| Even then, sometimes I get woken up by the low frequencies of
| large trucks idling (snow removal operations, mostly). The
| vibrations are not even felt in my ears but through my entire
| body.
| jeanofthedead wrote:
| When earplugs fail (as in the case of neighbor's bass,
| partner's snoring, or rambunctious nocturnal pets), I highly
| recommend the Bose SleepBuds II. Best purchase of the year
| for me, and my sleep tracking apps have proven to me that
| these things work. Might be worth looking into.
| Guest42 wrote:
| Agreed. I also don't like it when locking a car via remote
| causes the horn to go off and in order to make sure people hit
| it multiple times.
| stevenpetryk wrote:
| There's someone who does this every day outside my apartment
| at around 7:15. It is infuriating. 4-5 loud, inconsistently-
| spaced honks "just to be sure" when I'm sure their car locks
| silently on the first request. Most modern cars only beep if
| you lock them twice.
| Karawebnetwork wrote:
| New cars are starting to replace this with a less intense
| "beep beep". I was agreeably surprised when I locked my 2020
| car and it didn't honk at me.
| Arrath wrote:
| I turn off the audible alert on lock. Flashing the lights is
| plenty, why be obnoxious and add noise to the soundscape? I
| can hear the locks click, anyway.
| RootReducer wrote:
| A neighbor used to come home from work late at night and lock
| their doors three or four times, and every time it would wake
| me up. I wish there was a silent door lock and it would just
| flash the headlights.
| emdashcomma wrote:
| My car lets me configure it to work that way. It's one of
| my favorite features. I haven't heard it honk on lock in
| years.
| exac wrote:
| Most cars have this if you look in the user manual. Even
| old cars with no graphical radio have konami-code-like
| sequences of button presses you can input to turn them
| off.
| dazc wrote:
| Maybe no surprise to learn that, for a person who thinks
| it acceptable for the horn to sound for no real reason,
| this would be considered far too much effort?
| PurpleFoxy wrote:
| I'm in Australia and I have never seen a car that doesn't
| lock this way, you hear a slight mechanical latching sound
| and the lights flash.
| csunbird wrote:
| Cars in Europe lock silently.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| This was interesting for me, too. At the end of 2017 I moved
| into a new apartment, with a great view on a very busy road. I
| immediately felt much more "off". Maybe stressed in a way, but
| since I'm not usually the stressed kind, I had a hard time
| identifying the feeling.
|
| At around the same time, the AC in the office developed a
| constant hum. This drove me nuts.
|
| When I went to my parents' house in the suburbs, I could hear
| the silence and really, really enjoy it. I realized that
| basically, during a regular day, I could never get to spend a
| moment in silence. There would always be some kind of noise:
| traffic outside my apartment window, metro / bus / traffic
| during the commute, random people talking / AC hum at the
| office.
|
| This made me wonder whether all the people that I see around me
| being constantly angry and "on the edge" might be that way in
| part because they basically never catch a break. They are
| constantly under this continuous noise. And I don't think we
| can really get used to it. I remember a friend said that I'd
| get used to the noise when I would complain. It's more than 3
| years later, and it still annoys to me no end. I may sometimes
| forget the noise is there, but I think it still has its effect
| on my stress level. It's not like getting used to lifting
| weights or something to which the body adapts.
| neves wrote:
| Ear plugs are and one of the greatest inventions of humanity
| :-)
|
| No joking: I use to work, sleep, public transport, and every
| time I want some piece of mind.
| x3iv130f wrote:
| It was a culture shock for me as a Californian to visit
| Tokyo. In my mind cities are dirty, loud, and dangerous.
|
| Tokyo despite being one of the densest and busiest cities in
| first world countries is incredibly clean, quiet, and safe.
| 0_____0 wrote:
| Can you say a little bit more about this? What's the
| difference in how the cities are structured that makes this
| so?
| elicash wrote:
| A bit unrelated, but I'd love to use a Zillow-like platform but
| filtering homes for noise pollution, light pollution, air
| pollution. (Also climate and flooding.)
|
| Most people wouldn't use it, because they've basically decided
| which city/town (bc of work/family) and are just trying to narrow
| down which home. But it'd be very useful to me, personally, as
| someone who can do my job from anywhere. Also, I'd imagine it's
| impossible to get detailed enough data for some of this stuff.
| Noise being the toughest, I'd bet, though maybe you could
| approximate based on various factors (traffic, etc).
| 0xffff2 wrote:
| As someone who pretty much fits the category of " basically
| decided which city/town (bc of work/family) and are just trying
| to narrow down which home", I would love to have this service.
| There are huge differences in noise levels throughout any given
| city, and it's not always obvious from just a satellite map.
| Unfortunately, it's a very hard problem to solve. I did a lot
| of research before renting my current house. I thought I had
| done pretty well for about 2 hours after I moved in, then I
| found out that my next-door neighbor has two little dogs with a
| high-pitched bark and Olympic-swimmer level lungs. The neighbor
| has absolutely no interest in trying to control them. It would
| be a hell of an app that could have warned me about that.
| bagacrap wrote:
| air pollution is highly localized, e.g. near (downwind from)
| freeways. Not enough people have purpleair sensors to make this
| a reality.
| elicash wrote:
| You could have a mixture of exact scores like for whole
| cities < https://aqicn.org/map/usa/ > and then combine that
| with localized scores based on things like being near a
| freeway.
|
| Walk Score isn't an exact science, but is still a useful
| measure.
| nitrogen wrote:
| I've thought about how one would design and market soundproofed
| apartments and houses. You'd need to condense full-spectrum
| measurements of ambient levels, indoor transmission, and
| outdoor transmission into just one or a few numbers or letter
| grades, and convince other apartment buildings and homebuilders
| to let you run measuring microphones and speakers for a week.
|
| Are there any standards for soundproofed construction like
| there are for energy-minimized construction?
| wmeredith wrote:
| If you've ever been inside a house that has insulation
| installed in all interior walls, the sound mitigation is
| really something else. That's a feature quite high on my
| list, if I ever construct a home.
| telchar wrote:
| There is:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_transmission_class
| nitrogen wrote:
| Cool! Though unfortunately it only goes down to 125Hz or
| so, so it won't cover water hammer pipe noise, flushing
| toilets, or footsteps on higher floors.
|
| _> The STC is useful for evaluating annoyance due to
| speech sounds, but not music or machinery noise as these
| sources contain more low frequency energy than speech._
|
| There's also Room Criteria or Noise Criteria, which
| measures ambient noise from 16Hz to 4kHz, but not
| transmission.
|
| My dream is to have greater than 60dB of isolation across
| 20-20k, and preferably more like 80+. I'd like to be able
| to sleep inside if there's a marching band, a motorcycle
| tour, an airshow, and a hurricane all going on outside at
| the same time (and, in reverse, to be able to do all those
| things inside without bothering the neighbors).
| telchar wrote:
| STC rating, or as you point out maybe a more expansive
| take on noise attenuation, is going to be high on my
| requirements list next time I look at an apartment. I
| think that and general sanitation (i.e lack of rats,
| roaches, bedbugs, mold) are the things that have the most
| acute effect on livability. And not having to walk on
| tiptoes is nice too. Unfortunately new construction is
| all about making a building cheaply, but soundproofing is
| almost impossible to do after the fact unless you want to
| gut a place.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| I'm not sure how soundproof it needs to be but my Marine
| Corps barracks never had sounds come through the ceilings or
| walls. Concrete.
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| I wish you could filter by what other people have searched for.
|
| I want to look at the neihborhoods that all the people who
| don't give a crap about anything are clicking on.
|
| Listening to jake brakes and a train a few times a day is a lot
| bad for my health than easily irritated neighbors.
| calmworm wrote:
| Realtor.com and the Realtor app have noise level and flood risk
| maps.
| lowercased wrote:
| They need to be able to use it as an actual filter when
| searching. That's not there yet. And... I'm unsure how
| accurate it is - maybe better for some areas - but I've seen
| some "low noise" areas that are... pretty noisy, imo.
| [deleted]
| ryanianian wrote:
| Damaging the heart sounds right.
|
| My neighbor has a unique obsession with his leaf-blower. It's
| like his daily 30-120 minutes of exercise at random times of the
| day. Even with all the noise-cancelling technology in the world,
| it ruins me for at least 2-3 hours and makes both video-
| conferencing and deep work basically impossible.
|
| Here's the thing: Nobody cares. The neighbor can say no to polite
| requests to figure out a compromise, and your local officials
| will tell you that you have the right to make as much noise as
| you want, and nobody else can do anything about it.
|
| Noise ordinances restrict decibels, not the tones or revving
| patterns or high-pitch "safety" beeping or other things that cut
| right through the heart despite them not technically being over a
| decibel level for a sustained period of time.
|
| With more people doing deeper work from home, I hope there are
| some pioneering cities that can establish protocols that protect
| work environments and locals' sanity - while still allowing noisy
| work to get done at predictable times of the day and with
| reasonable limits on meaningful impact to those living within
| earshot.
|
| Like TFA, we have to paint noise more like the health problem it
| actually is.
| josefresco wrote:
| Most of my neighbors hire leaf blower toting professional
| landscaping crews to clear their lawns on a regular basis. The
| process takes maybe 10 minutes for weekly blowouts, and maybe
| 45-60 minutes for seasonal jobs.
|
| I thought this was obnoxious, until one of my neighbors decided
| to do the work themselves. It took them an entire long weekend
| of (what seemed like) 9-5 blowing to clear their lot.
| lowercased wrote:
| Similar - couple of neighbors of mine _enjoy_ the leaf blowing
| and riding mowers. I mean... it 's not speculation, one said
| "oh, i love it - it's my relaxation time". And... when he can,
| he'll spend 2-3 hrs putzing around riding and blowing whatever
| he can. We have the same size yard, and have a company which is
| paid by the job. They can do the whole same size in about under
| 30 minutes (often just with 1 person - 2 folks it's often 20
| minutes).
|
| There's little we can do when someone gets pleasure out of
| running a loud motor for hours at a time. He started a leaf
| blower, then left it running next to our window while he went
| inside for about 10 minutes (bathroom visit probably?). Just...
| insanity.
| centimeter wrote:
| > high-pitch "safety" beeping
|
| This drives me insane. I know some shithead lawyer or safety
| "activist" somewhere is responsible for all the bullshit
| beeping I have to deal with in my life. A fire alarm going off
| for no reason. (I would accept the negligible marginal risk of
| burning to death than have to deal with legally mandated fire
| alarms.) My car beeping because I didn't put the seatbelt over
| the luggage in the passenger seat. Even airplanes aren't as
| annoying with the audible alerts as cars. The only time I get
| beeped at when I'm flying is if I'm stalling or something. At
| least in aircraft, designers have the understanding and
| latitude to treat noises as the pointless distractions they
| are.
| jodrellblank wrote:
| "I was in a school science lesson learning about Pavlov and
| thinking 'stupid dogs'. Then the bell rang and we all had
| lunch." - Gary Delaney.
|
| > " _I know some shithead lawyer or safety "activist"
| somewhere is responsible for all the bullshit beeping I have
| to deal with in my life._ "
|
| Probably not; whoever set the Unix/Linux CLI to ding
| aggressively whenever you do literally anything is guilty of
| something or other. It's not just the nature of the beep
| sound, 8-bit music can be fun, it's combined with the nature
| of "safety" beeping being an audio wrap-on-the-knuckles for
| doing something "wrong" like ... pressing backspace when
| there's nothing to backspace DING! or turning on the
| induction hob DING! or turning up the power on the induction
| hob DING! or not hurrying quickly enough to the finished
| microwave DING DING! or reversing a large vehicle BEEEEEEP!
| or not plugging in your seatbelt NAUGHTY! (Not being awake
| for capitalism productivity time RING RING!)
|
| They're not just audio noises, they're psychological soup
| nazis. Cracking twigs and sudden barks are sounds that
| somehting is coming to eat you, screeching is a sound that
| your infant might be about to die, none of it is relevant to
| trying to adjust a volume control one percent higher than it
| can go. DING!
|
| I've run Windows with all sounds off, and Linuxes with muted
| error bels for so long that I can't imagine what it would be
| like if the entire computing audioscape was nice,
| encouraging, pleasant, positive feedback like message
| notifications on smartphones tend to be.
| dgrcode wrote:
| I lived in Dublin, Ireland, for a while and every. Single.
| Day. There was a fire alarm going off. It drove me insane. I
| had already forgotten how crazy that was and your message
| made me remember it. Now I can appreciate more not having
| that where I currently live :)
| agumonkey wrote:
| Are these gas powered blower? I wonder if electric ones exist.
| If not maybe there's a better design for small homes / lawn.
| ryanianian wrote:
| Electric blowers exist. I have one. But his property is just
| big enough and with enough bushes and things where a cord
| would _probably_ quickly become a nuisance. Hopefully the
| Tesla Lawn Care line is imminent.
| dgrcode wrote:
| Looking forward to those electric blowers
| jborichevskiy wrote:
| They do exist and seem to work reasonably well, from the
| few I've seen used around my neighborhoods.
| Lammy wrote:
| The first thing I do in any car is plug in my OBDLink LX, fire
| up Carista on my phone, and see what obnoxious beeps, honks,
| and flashes I can disable:
| https://cdn.dealereprocess.net/cdn/servicemanuals/toyota/201...
| nitrogen wrote:
| A partial solution would be soundproof houses, though that
| doesn't rescue one's backyard or park from loud neighbors.
| Every house or apartment should have at least a room or two
| that are impervious to outdoor noise.
|
| At the same time, there are really good reasons to make noise
| sometimes, from music to machines, so better ways to do that
| without overly bothering others are needed too.
| ryanianian wrote:
| I've spent serious time looking into this. One of the biggest
| sources of noise is windows or other places air can start to
| get in. I re-sealed my windows as best I could, but it's
| still a crisis of sound. Windows that claim to be sound-
| isolating either don't open at all or are very expensive to
| buy or properly install.
|
| But: These are the kinds of "nobody cares it's your fault it
| bugs you and you need to find a solution" comments that are
| pervasive. Sure, I need to do my part as someone who's
| bothered by the sound, but there is no real incentive for the
| producer of the noise to cut it out.
|
| Not singling you out in particular, just showing that even
| honest proposals for solutions tend to miss the elephant in
| the room: noise pollution that isn't pure sustained decibels
| can still be damaging.
|
| Say I have an obnoxious horn that is a few db below the
| ordinance/limit. Many may claim that's a nuisance although
| somehow the blower isn't. But why shouldn't I get to play
| with my horn for a few hours every day? Maybe my leaves don't
| like it. The fact that the leaf-blower sound comes from doing
| a "chore" seems to change the equation in ways that are hard
| to articulate.
| nitrogen wrote:
| _These are the kinds of "nobody cares it's your fault it
| bugs you and you need to find a solution" comments that are
| pervasive._
|
| If I came across that way it wasn't intentional. I actually
| really, really hate unwelcome sound/noise, but I'm also a
| night owl so I can't really enjoy many of the things I want
| to enjoy because it would bother others.
|
| Realistically we all make noise in ways we might not
| initially realize, so on top of singling out and improving
| the outliers like car horns and yard equipment, we also
| have to consider ways to let us all go about our business
| more quietly, and to find solace from noise.
| arminiusreturns wrote:
| This, at least in America, is the real heart of the problem.
| Our building practices have leaned so cheap for so long on
| thin margins, that walls, even exterior, are paper thin to
| the point of being ridiculous.
|
| This becomes much more obvious if you have travelled around
| to other countries, and it's not all about wealth. Yes, rich
| ones such as Switzerland are a great example because of the
| heat containment requirements they have, there are poorer
| countries that still know how to build a house without sound
| going through it as if it was nothing.
|
| This doesn't mean noise pollution shouldn't be tackled
| itself, but cities are noisey, and people at least deserve to
| have domiciles that give them a refuge.
|
| This means you need to start participating in your city and
| county governments if you really want change (like many
| things!)
| undefined1 wrote:
| leaf blowers are such a pox on neighborhoods.
|
| we really need to find an alternative. is it possible to make
| an electric leaf blower that is both powerful and quiet?
|
| or forget the leaf blower altogether and pay kids to rake up
| leaves instead. make it the new paper route. $N per bag.
| reddit_clone wrote:
| Indeed. Are leaf blowers that much more efficient than good
| old fashioned rakes?
|
| Especially if you pay some kids to do it? They get exercise
| and money out of it. We get some peace and quiet.
| kiliantics wrote:
| People seem to insist on burning fossil fuels for any tiny
| unnecessary task it seems. It's so sad.
| ryanianian wrote:
| Many people seem to take genuine pleasure in using the
| blower, maybe like the satisfaction of vacuuming a dirty
| carpet.
|
| The difference is acknowledging and caring about the
| externalities paid by anyone in earshot. Sure, do your
| noisy cathartic thing occasionally when you really need it,
| but find a better hobby to do every day of the week.
| mint2 wrote:
| Yes, some cities actually ban non-electric leaf blowers. It's
| possible to make them powerful and quiet or powerful and
| loud. It's just a matter of cost and will. It probably
| doesn't cost much more but no one has cared to do it.
| Unklejoe wrote:
| I have an electric leaf blower and it's loud as hell. I think
| most of the noise comes from the high velocity air itself.
| ip26 wrote:
| Get your neighbor a powerful, quiet, electric leaf blower for
| Christmas? If he's leaf-blower-obsessed, he might even love you
| for it.
|
| The electric ones aren't noiseless, but they are a far sight
| better.
| [deleted]
| goldenchrome wrote:
| Have you talked to your neighbor? It could be as simple as a
| lack of awareness on their part.
| ryanianian wrote:
| Repeatedly. It's a weird power dynamic that neighbors have.
| He's not a rude person, but he just doesn't "get it." I asked
| him to run his blower any time _except_ 9-12 and 1-5, but
| that worked for like 2 days.
| dazc wrote:
| The problem with annoying neighbours is that they lack the
| common decency to comply. By definition, if they had the
| required decency then they wouldn't become annoying in the
| first place.
|
| The general advice always seems to be to talk to your
| neighbour about the problem but, in my experience, this never
| works and is more likely to aggravate an already testy
| relationship.
|
| Thus far, until 'being annoying' becomes an acceptable
| defence for murder, the only strategy that works 100% is to
| move.
| ricardobayes wrote:
| It almost never is. You are a nice person to assume the best
| though.
| timdaub wrote:
| Here's some anecdotal evidence from my experience:
|
| I've lived close to a loud 4 lane road for 4 years. My windows
| were bad too. When trucks drove over a bump in the road, I
| sometimes was able to notice the vibrations.
|
| Given this radical experience and all the pain caused by sleep-
| deprevation and having to move away finally, I second the
| article's message whole-heartedly (lol).
|
| Though I was luckily to be able to move, I've stayed sensitive to
| noise. It's a major stressor in my life and I take it seriously.
|
| In fact, I think that particularly in cities, the German
| aurhorities should implement tighter rules when it comes to noise
| pollution, e.g.:
|
| - tone down ambulance's horns or fund technical approaches that
| work without the high pitch sound
|
| - stop building airports near neighborhoods and restrict air
| traffic heavily
|
| - enforce stricter rules when honking for stupid reasons
|
| - have cars comply to noise maximums
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| I live just uphill of a minor state highway intersection that's
| near several industrial sites. I hear jake brakes going down
| the hill end engines going up the hill. And there's hourly-ish
| trains on the overlooking hill, one of the industrial sites
| sometimes smells a little. One of my neighbors parties. Another
| one has dogs that bark at everything. Yet a third has all
| manner of 2-stroke powered toys.
|
| I have never been more stress free because the kind of people
| who live here aren't the kind of people who care what I do.
| Sure it would be great if I lived on a bunch of acres in the
| country but putting up with some noise is a pretty good middle
| ground.
| nothinggoesaway wrote:
| Folks with sensitivity to sound: consider supplementing chelated
| magnesium.
|
| When I tried magnesium glycinate to help with sleep, I happily
| discovered my daytime sensitivity to loud sounds improved too.
| Turns out this is common: https://psychcentral.com/blog/living-
| with-extreme-sound-sens... > In my practice, 85
| percent of my patients came to me with a severe magnesium
| deficiency. A deficiency in this mineral often leads to anxiety,
| mood swings, personality disorders, sound sensitivity, light
| sensitivity, and insomnia. Magnesium has been shown to mitigate
| the neurotransmitter glutamate while easing the anxiety and anger
| experienced by someone with most types of sound sensitivity.
| Chelated magnesium is one of the best types of mineral
| supplements as it is very small and easy for the body to absorb
| and make use of.
|
| Mg deficiency is widespread in industrialized populations, due in
| part to nutrient depleted soils. It's heavily implicated in
| medical literature for anxiety, irritability, insomnia. The link
| to noise sensitivity seems more anecdotal so far.
| graeme wrote:
| Why chelates specifically? As opposed to, say, magnesium
| citrate.
| GloriousKoji wrote:
| I often hear that Chelated magnesium has the highest bio-
| availability of all the different types of magnesium
| supplements. One might think they can just take more
| magnesium citrate to compensate but then it might be a full
| on laxative at that point.
| graeme wrote:
| Does anyone know what decibel thresholds are? I've been falling
| asleep with podcasts played quietly. It isn't loud at all and
| feels comforting, but obviously is louder than no podcast. I'm
| wondering if that would be enough to trigger some of the hormonal
| cascade they discuss.
| pims wrote:
| I've been suffering from tinnitus and hyperacusis for over three
| years. It led me to read a bit about hearing in general, and more
| and more studies show that most of the hearing loss we experience
| as we grow old is nothing natural but the result of the years of
| abuse we inflict upon our ears in our everyday lives (
| https://www.jneurosci.org/content/40/33/6357 ). Even though my
| situation is specific, this article does not surprise me at all.
| I believe it has also been proven that loud noise reduces brain
| activity levels and cognitive performance.
|
| I wasn't a fan of loud noises before my hyperacusis appeared, but
| now I've grown to absolutely despise motorcycle drivers who seem
| to feel obligated to make as much noise as possible in dense
| areas, accelerating as strong as they can regardless of common
| sense and speed limits. I won't even mention those doing this
| late at night throughout the city, not worried about waking up
| hundreds if not thousands of people.
|
| I've moved out of a big city to be less exposed to traffic noise,
| unfortunately the area I'm now in is coastal and often has said
| drivers "enjoying" the coastline in their own unique way as soon
| as the sun is out.
|
| I hope that this major public health issue will be tackled in the
| upcoming years, and that strong limitations on engine noise will
| be put in place, enforced by sound radars, heavy fines, and
| incentives to go electric.
| ricardobayes wrote:
| Some European countries like Austria have been doing this for
| many years. Roadside noise level measurements with harsh
| penalties. If you exceed the limits, they take the licence
| plate off.
| pims wrote:
| Lucky them, here in France we're probably far from ever
| seeing such laws given the high percentage of bikers who
| simply don't care about making harmful levels of noise even
| right next to small kids.
|
| I've considered reaching out to my neighborhood council about
| it, but I'll probably have moved again due to motorcycles
| before it goes up to the city/county/department/region...
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| Well, there actually are laws in France regarding noise. I
| don't remember what the numbers are, but technically most
| of the loud pipes on motorcycles are illegal. The
| registration has a line for the noise generated by the bike
| under certain conditions, and if you modify the bike
| (usually the muffler) such that the noise is above that
| level, your bike is illegal.
|
| The issue, of course, is that there's no enforcement.
|
| Maybe a year or so ago there was some campaign about this
| with police stopping people in Paris who were too loud.
| Everyone was talking about how the noise is unacceptable
| and how there would be a crackdown. This lasted a whole 2
| days until the cameras tired, and all of a sudden it became
| acceptable again, and has been ever since.
| pims wrote:
| Interesting, I had a look and it seems like it should be
| limited to 80dB for the biggest motorcycles. But that's
| when measuring in specific conditions in a lab, so
| there's a more "practical" (ahem) limit that depends on
| the model but is always at harmful levels (>80dB) and is
| measured when the engine is only at 50% of its maximum
| power.
|
| So we have a badly designed law which is, as you
| mentioned, not even enforced. Sounds like France indeed.
| Zebfross wrote:
| Just a PSA. I thought I had tinnitus a while back because
| that's the first search engine hit on "ringing in ears", but it
| turns out it was just ear wax touching my eardrum. If it
| happens to anyone else, it may be easy to fix.
| pims wrote:
| Yep just get your ears properly checked by a good ENT when it
| first appears. There can be numerous causes and some of them
| can and should be treated early. Also do not panic, in many
| cases it will go away.
|
| In some other cases like mine it's unfortunately not as
| likely to disappear, so protect your ears and wear earplugs
| at concerts or anywhere noise is at uncomfortable levels.
| baron816 wrote:
| There are few things that make me angrier than when a Harley-
| Davidson style motorcycle (or a pack of them) drive past me while
| I'm walking down the street. I can't believe cities haven't
| prohibited them, especially at night. Those things are
| specifically designed to create noise pollution. They're so
| fucking obnoxious, even just thinking about it while I'm writing
| this is working me up.
| ReactiveJelly wrote:
| Yes, it's frustrating that some people just don't believe in
| the human right to peace and quiet.
|
| That's one reason why I have no hope for self-organizing models
| of society. There are griefers who only respond to force, and
| it doesn't take many of them to fuck up the whole game.
| tayo42 wrote:
| Lately I've come to the conclusion that peace and quiet
| really is a luxury to have. Most people I don't think get to
| experience it. You need to have money to have it so you can
| live somewhere nice. Other wise your stuck living in
| apartment buildings, crowded cities, next to noisy neighbors.
| Go to busy shared spaces (ppl stop playing radios out doors!)
| or staying in shitty hotels.
| neolog wrote:
| What do you mean by it's a luxury? That it's nice? or rare?
| or should be rare?
| pb7 wrote:
| I think rare in the sense that few can afford to have it.
| vbezhenar wrote:
| I'm sure that every country have tiny villages with cheap
| land. Buy enough land, build a house in the center, grow
| some trees around and you'll have peaceful house.
|
| Of course there are other issues with that lifestyle
| which is why it's not adopted widely, like no work,
| issues for children, issues with healthcare, but for some
| people it could work, IMO.
| pb7 wrote:
| > no work, issues for children, issues with healthcare
|
| There's the rub, no? You need to have a lot of money
| saved up to not have to work which makes it a luxury. For
| most people, they need to live near work, which is mostly
| in or near dense noisy cities.
| burntoutfire wrote:
| I'm basically FI and could do that, but the problem is
| I'd be leaving everyone I know to live alone in a middle
| of nowhere. Granted, a pretty and picteresque middle of
| nowhere, but still, it sounds like a recipe for misery.
| That's why I endure living in a loud and smoggy city...
| nitrogen wrote:
| Part of the problem is that those who don't appreciate it
| will see how nice a quiet town in the country is, then
| move from the big city to that town and destroy the very
| thing they originally enjoyed.
|
| Or bring a bluetooth boombox into the wilderness and play
| it so it can be heard for a mile away.
| jborichevskiy wrote:
| > Lately I've come to the conclusion that peace and quiet
| really is a luxury to have. Most people I don't think get
| to experience it.
|
| It absolutely is. I got the chance to live in a quiet
| neighborhood near the ocean for a few months and I think
| back fondly to the level of calm during evening walks
| there. It felt downright _nourishing_ to my psyche.
|
| This is contrast to living within line of sight to San
| Diego Airport with the first airplane taking off at 6:31a.
| In addition to waking me up it would also trigger a
| significant amount of stress - not a great way to start the
| day.
|
| Cities are not designed for anything resembling healthy
| living currently. I hope this changes soon.
| birdyrooster wrote:
| My apartment complex fire alarms go off once a week due
| to one smoker or food burning in a single building which
| then causes every building to start alarming. This week,
| they are doing testing which means that an entire
| building fire alarm will go off for every individual unit
| they test. There are 1000 units here and almost 100 are
| in my building. I have heard the fire alarm go off nearly
| 100 distinct times and I don't even register fire alarms
| as being useful anymore. These people hate me and want me
| to die in a fire.
| jborichevskiy wrote:
| That genuinely sounds like hell - hoping you get a calm
| environment soon.
| sebmellen wrote:
| It's almost criminal that houses are built so close to
| the airport. I have a few friends who live downtown in
| that area and it seems like hell.
| jborichevskiy wrote:
| Indeed. I understand it's a multi-faceted issue given the
| economic development the airport has provided (and
| continues to provide), but it seems health and wellness
| externalities were not priced in fully. Now that the
| airport is built and housing density only continues to
| increase - where does this lead?
|
| From the wikipedia article:
|
| > SAN is in a populated area. To appease the concerns of
| the airport's neighbors regarding noise and possible
| ensuing lawsuits, a curfew was put in place in 1979.
| Takeoffs are allowed between 6:30 a.m. and 11:30 p.m.
| Outside those hours, they are subject to a large fine.
| Arrivals are permitted 24 hours per day.[47] While
| several flights have scheduled departure times before
| 6:30 a.m., these times are pushback times; the first
| takeoff roll is at 6:30 a.m.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Diego_International_Air
| por...
| sebmellen wrote:
| I've taken off later than 11:30 PM, i think realistically
| 12:30 is the cutoff, especially on very busy days. I
| remember hearing that the first month of lockdown was
| blissful because there were so few flights coming
| through.
| xapata wrote:
| There are plenty of poor people with peace and quiet in
| rural areas.
| FooHentai wrote:
| I'm not so sure about that, nature is often loud AF.
| Agriculture, too.
| Jtsummers wrote:
| Short of living near a fast moving river, nature is
| rarely as consistently loud as living in a city. Rural
| living, away [0] from rivers and highways (mainly
| interstates) is remarkably quiet and often very
| affordable in most of the country.
|
| [0] This doesn't even have to be very far away, and noise
| can be substantially reduced with a fairly small group of
| trees between you and the noise source.
| TheCapn wrote:
| Have you experienced it? I live rural and actually close
| to railway/highway but the comparison to urban noise is
| not even close.
| FooHentai wrote:
| Lol yes. I'm currently avoiding opening up doors/windows
| because the cicadas are sufficiently loud that I've had
| ringing in my ears every night for the past week.
|
| Then I see the downvotes on my earlier comment and wonder
| just what image people have of rural living. Last year I
| didn't get a wink of sleep on an overnight camp because
| bullfrogs went hard out the entire night.
|
| Also I'm not sure how this became a binary comparison of
| the densest urban environments or the sparsest rural
| retreats. The suburbs exist and that's actually where
| most people live.
| moralestapia wrote:
| I've lived through all the spectrum of apartments from
| modest to exclusive and luxurious. One thing does not imply
| the other, it's a matter of luck + how (un)civilized are
| the people surrounding you.
| viklove wrote:
| You've obviously never lived in a penthouse or a private
| residence on a 20 acre property. Noise pollution is not
| an issue in those situations.
| vkou wrote:
| Depending on where that 20 acres is, you can get it for
| less than the price of a coastal-city closet.
|
| You'll have a hard life ahead of you, though.
| jborichevskiy wrote:
| Yes, one of the things that blew me away about luxury
| apartments in NYC is the level of soundproofing - both in
| the windows as well as the thickness between
| floors/ceiling (a foot plus, iirc).
| cowmoo728 wrote:
| Just remember the cure can be worse than the disease. I agree
| with you - mostly because of people who "roll coal" to poison
| cyclists for fun - but I'm wary of involving authority and
| force. Somehow there are societies that don't have as much of
| a problem with things like this, so maybe we should learn
| from them.
| ip26 wrote:
| Aren't the societies that don't have these problems, often
| societies that readily employ authority & force & social
| coercion? Singapore, Japan.
| boredumb wrote:
| You believe we need a more authoritarian society because some
| people live lives that are louder than you deem appropriate
| and enough so that you are willing to 'respond with force'
| and you somehow see them as the people who are "fucking up
| the whole game"?
| LurkersWillLurk wrote:
| I don't think the city council is oppressing anyone by
| having the police issue citations to people who wake me up
| at night with their obnoxious mufflers.
|
| The personal satisfaction from having a loud muffler is
| actually less important than my ability to sleep at night.
| boredumb wrote:
| I may be misunderstanding, but having a city council
| isn't an antithesis to self organizing societies.
|
| In my understanding abandoning self organizing societies
| that could have more or less noise friendly communities
| in favor of top down politics that more closely resemble
| a centrally planned society/dictatorship.
| bdamm wrote:
| Allowing a city to define what it means to live within it
| is generally accepted as not the same as a centrally
| planned society. Certainly that is the case within the
| United States, where there are very many options for what
| kind of city one wants to live in. We are not talking
| about city-states like Singapore. So yeah, we can
| penalize the noisemakers and not lose any sleep that
| we're degrading into a dictatorship.
| khafra wrote:
| The Coase Theorem suggests that, with sufficiently
| frictionless microtransactions, people who prefer to make
| noise and people who prefer not to hear noise could all
| be happier.
|
| Maybe a phone app with a decibel-meter and a distance
| metric to each other such app within hearing distance,
| with pre-authorized amounts to transfer for each decibel
| level created/experienced?
| jschwartzi wrote:
| My willingness to accept your loud muffler bottoms out at
| $100,000 per 100 mS per decibel over 40 dB. If you're
| willing to put up $4-5 million every time you drive by my
| house, I'm willing to let you pay me for the privilege of
| ruining my sleep for your stupid car.
| burntoutfire wrote:
| Are you Jeff Bezos? You must be crazy rich to not accept
| less that $4m for a minute of inconvenience. I'd endure
| it for $100 - with just a couple bikes per day, I
| wouldn't have to work!
| bdamm wrote:
| This is a naive free market view.
|
| Unless you have a government under your thumb, you'll
| never compel a population to install this app and all use
| it. Even if you did manage to convince people to use it,
| participants will game it into submission before it ever
| gained relevancy.
| neolog wrote:
| "could all be happier" probably not, since currently the
| noisemakers are maximally happy making noise without
| paying anybody.
| khafra wrote:
| Lots of them would be happier to get a small amount of
| money for being just a little bit quieter. People
| preferring peace and quiet would be happy to pay a small
| amount of money to get fans of noisemaking to stay below
| their annoyance threshold.
|
| Rough sketch of a potential process: Harley Q. is riding
| through the hills with the throttle open when her phone
| buzzes, indicating she's approaching an area with
| residents willing to pay above her threshold for <80db
| experienced noise. She rolls off the throttle and coasts
| through the upcoming neighborhood, or takes the long way
| around. Maybe a small extra payment would be put in
| escrow if she doesn't approach that area while making
| noise for a few more weeks.
|
| Please note that the apparent bias toward paying the
| noisemaker is an artifact of existing noise ordinances.
| Coase can only help us from where we currently are, not
| from an imaginary utopia.
|
| If we place this in a hypothetical city with a 40db noise
| restriction, which allows neighborhoods to accept louder
| noises by consensus, the payments reverse; Ms. Q will try
| to select the cheapest neighborhood she can enjoy her
| noise through, and its residents will end up collectively
| richer in exchange for suffering through the noise.
| pushswap wrote:
| Sounds like a magnet for noisemakers to route their trips
| through while staying just at or under the annoyance
| threshold -- a threshold which, with increased
| sensitivity, may be shifting lower.
| Jtsummers wrote:
| That's like saying, "I'll stop punching you if you pay me
| $50, but until then I'm really enjoying punching you."
| Assholes are assholes and should not be paid to not be
| assholes, they should just stop it or pay others whenever
| they cross the line (via fines or other means).
| neolog wrote:
| Nice writeup, thanks.
| mikestew wrote:
| Well, if we're willing to go the financial incentives
| route, we could just slap their ass with a $250 ticket
| when they ride through town with loud pipes. No need to
| get all complicated with phone apps and tracking such.
|
| And the "Didn't-Think-This-Through-Did-You" Department
| asks if one really thinks the Loud Pipes Save Lives and
| Freeduhm! crowd is going to use a location-tracking app?
| If the answer is yes, boy, has the head of that
| department got some bad news for you.
| neolog wrote:
| It's obviously a problem that affected people have no way
| to solve this. Authoritarian use of force is one way that
| might be effective; other ways might be available. I'd be
| curious to hear some alternative options.
| young_unixer wrote:
| Counter-example:
|
| Sounds are pressure waves that transmit through the air.
|
| Given enough pressure, those waves could even kill someone
| (bomb).
|
| If we say that there should be no legal limit to sound
| pressure, then making a bomb explode and killing people
| should have no legal consequences.
|
| This makes no sense, so we should put a threshold of
| maximum allowed sound pressure. The discussion now is
| _where_ is that threshold.
| jodrellblank wrote:
| Counter-exampe: regulations exist relating to bombs,
| stabbing, and guns, without having any threshhold of
| maximum allowed pushing force or speed of matter.
| Tyr42 wrote:
| I mean, you don't need to regulate the maximum pressure,
| you just need to say "don't kill or injure anyone" right?
|
| You can place the regulation directly on what you want,
| not just upstream.
| jfim wrote:
| Sometimes outcomes are regulated, not the means of
| getting to that outcome.
|
| In your case, murder is illegal, but the instrument could
| be completely legal. For example, water is perfectly
| legal, although one could force someone to ingest too
| much water and killing them. It would still be illegal,
| even though water is legal.
|
| We should still regulate sound levels, mind you.
| dilutedh2o wrote:
| amen
| LinuxBender wrote:
| Many _most?_ cities do have noise ordinance laws that would
| prohibit choppers, but then cops have to decide if that want to
| take on that battle. Most bikers are super friendly. Some of
| them are not. One of the biker gangs in my area use a cocktail
| of drugs that make them fearless, angry, violent and it usually
| takes half a dozen cops to take down one of the bikers.
| mc32 wrote:
| It's not only choppers that are loud.
|
| High RPM street bikes which get "gunned" by their riders are
| also very loud and more frequent than passe choppers.
| saiya-jin wrote:
| sounds like exactly the kind of work cops _should_ be doing
| LinuxBender wrote:
| It does, but most cops have spouses and children to go home
| to. Given options, they will lean towards writing tickets
| to people less likely to be violent. This is easy to fix
| and has been fixed in some cities, but then the blowback
| usually goes the other way. Citizens will complain that the
| department has been over militarized and will demand the
| department lose funding until all the military gear has
| been removed.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| dgrcode wrote:
| I think this is just not a concern for the general population.
| There are solutions available if we wanted to address this
| issue.
|
| There could be a restriction on the vehicle. Some European
| cities have zones with restricted access to vehicles based on
| their CO2 emissions. There are stickers that you have to put on
| your windshield to drive into those areas.
|
| We could have some "noise emission" regulations that ban some
| vehicles from driving at certain times, like before 9am or
| after 7pm.
|
| It would be similar to the CO2 emission regulations, there's no
| need to measure the emissions because you have a sticker that
| already say what your emission levels are.
| vmception wrote:
| Hard to enforce those in the US
|
| We could make re-registering more difficult or impossible for
| people with addresses in areas with those kind of ordinances
|
| Enthusiasts will have nominal addresses but it can be a
| deterrent
| dheera wrote:
| The one thing that makes me even angrier is gas-powered leaf
| blowers that make multiple passes past my apartment, and
| seemingly deliberately linger for longer if I'm in the middle
| of a conference call.
|
| Seriously, go electric and ban those abominations.
| pilsetnieks wrote:
| They are also hugely polluting, more than cars and trucks:
| https://www.wsj.com/articles/that-ear-splitting-leaf-
| blower-...
| RootReducer wrote:
| I would be ecstatic if my city banned leaf blowers.
| ericbarrett wrote:
| They might already be--I lived in a city where they were
| "banned." And yet I never saw a landscaper using an
| electric blower; they were always gas.
| burntoutfire wrote:
| Warsaw banned them recently. Luckily the authorities
| started doing something about this nuisance...
| nickysielicki wrote:
| I get where you're coming from, but I also believe that loud
| pipes save lives. Ultimately, is it really that big of a deal?
| wl wrote:
| Inflicting hearing loss on the unconsenting public is a huge
| deal.
| dangwu wrote:
| Is riding motorcycles really that important if it causes
| noise pollution and enrages people?
| bdamm wrote:
| Denying others sleep is kind of a big deal.
| tawayyyy wrote:
| i wouldn't care the lives of the pilots bombing cities.
| boredumb wrote:
| Harleys stock are actually under the legal noise limit (80
| decibels i think?) and are generally that loud due to straight
| exhaust and a specific cam shaft they use to squeeze more
| performance out of them. My understanding is folks prefer them
| to be loud so that they can be better noticed by cars and get
| hit less often.
|
| Dirt bikes are around 100 decibels, perform like trash and
| shouldn't be on the freeway near cars in the first place.
|
| Here in Puerto Rico we have herds (20-200) of two stroke bikes
| that ride together at night for fun. I would gladly trade them
| for 1000 Harley-Davidsons.
| pivo wrote:
| > folks prefer them to be loud so that they can be better
| noticed by cars and get hit less often
|
| If you want to do something that's too dangerous to do
| without infuriating everyone around you, maybe you just
| shouldn't do it.
|
| I don't think those super loud exhausts are stock either.
| There are tons of bikers who replace the stock pipes with the
| loudest ones they can find. I don't get it at all.
| asdffdsa wrote:
| Motorcycles reduce congestion and emit less carbon
| emissions than SUVs, sedans, trucks, etc. Sure, loud
| exhausts shouldn't be used, but banning them without
| addressing the problem of incompetent drivers only further
| encourages a bygone car culture that is already arguably
| too pervasive in our society.
|
| As a side note, this line of thinking "[it infuriates
| others so] maybe you shouldn't do it" leans totalitarian
| which in turn leads to suboptimal outcomes (since no one
| person or even organization knows the optimal way of living
| or organizing society -- e.g. no mortals can play "god" so
| to speak). Also, many people are "infuriated" by trivial
| things, so it's not always a good way to live life
| imagining who these ambiguous others are and also to
| placate to their imagined sensibilities.
| wing-_-nuts wrote:
| >emit less carbon emissions than SUVs, sedans, trucks,
| etc.
|
| Citation needed. I'd be willing to bet money that a honda
| civic has fewer emissions than a harley.
| pivo wrote:
| I'm not suggesting a ban on motorcycles. I'm a
| motorcyclist myself but I use the stock exhausts because
| they are quiet. I do want to ban excessively loud
| exhausts, or more simply, I want the police to enforce
| the existing noise pollution laws.
|
| I think that an important part of being a decent human
| being living in close proximity to other human beings is
| recognizing and limiting one's own anti-social behavior.
| I hope that's not a controversial statement.
| asdffdsa wrote:
| Agreed on the loud exhaust ban, thanks for clarifying
| boredumb wrote:
| I think you're right about the straight pipes being after
| market, but I believe the noise generally comes from the
| engine configuration firing at uneven intervals that make
| it unusually distinct.
| nickt wrote:
| That "loud pipes save lives is rubbish" [1]. Even if it were
| true the ROI on some training and awareness would be far
| higher.
|
| [1] https://www.quora.com/Do-loud-pipes-really-significantly-
| sav...
| boredumb wrote:
| >>ROI on some training and awareness would be far higher.
|
| Motorcycle people generally spend money to placard their
| cars up with "Watch out for motorcyclists!" stickers so
| unless you're insinuating the government should use public
| funds to educate drivers on checking their mirrors and not
| getting into accidents with motorcyclists I'm not sure what
| you're actually saying.
| nickt wrote:
| Training quantifiably lowers risk - I'm talking about
| training for motorcyclists. We all have to do some
| training pretty much everywhere in the world before we
| become licensed drivers and riders.
|
| In both the UK and US, advanced training courses are
| available and are recognized my insurance companies who
| offer discounts.
|
| Anecdotally, the people that I've picked up off the
| highway have all been on a cruiser-style bike, been
| wearing improper clothing (usually shorts and T-Shirts)
| and not been wearing a helmet. Now that's legal here in
| CO and fine for an individual to make their own
| decisions. With further training however, you can make
| better decisions particularly around risk assessment and
| handling characteristics.
|
| [edit - typo]
| zapita wrote:
| OK but individual motorcycle riders are not in a position
| to train and raise awareness in a way that makes them safe.
| So from the rider's perspective, there is no good
| alternative.
| nickt wrote:
| While that may be true there are plenty free or close to
| free resources on the internet on in libraries and plenty
| of local friendly groups that often have a focus on
| advanced riding.
|
| For the folks who are riding around on $20-40k worth of
| bike with illegal and noisy aftermarket pipes - that they
| paid for - it's not really an excuse.
| zapita wrote:
| It's not either-or. There are situations where advanced
| riding will not protect you, but being more noisy will.
| Plenty of disciplined, advanced riders also choose to be
| noisier with aftermarket addons, especially on smaller
| bikes. It's a trade off that riders make between
| increasing their safety and being less obnoxious. It's
| reasonable as a pedestrian to be annoyed at those that
| choose the former, but you can't just dismiss their
| decision on the grounds that it's useless- that's
| objectively false.
| mikestew wrote:
| If "loud pipes save(d) lives", your insurance company would
| give a discount for straight pipes. Instead they give a
| discount if you've taken a training course and have ABS. It
| is bullshit spouted by man-children that just want to attract
| attention, dishonestly disguised as a safety issue.
| cheschire wrote:
| While they are under the legal noise limit, the low frequency
| of harleys travels significantly easier through obstacles,
| making them seem louder inside a house or around a wall /
| fence / bush than a higher frequency noise at the same dB.
|
| I'm definitely not arguing that 2-stroke is quieter though.
| Just that it's not quite an apples to apples comparison due
| to both variables having an impact.
| josefresco wrote:
| "My understanding is folks prefer them to be loud so that
| they can be better noticed by cars and get hit less often."
|
| As a member of a motorcycle riding family in the US (I don't
| ride, but several close family members do) this is
| hilariously wrong. They like it loud because they like the
| sound, and they like to get noticed. I say hilariously
| because I constantly joke with my family members about how
| silly the bike culture is, and to give full credit to them;
| they agree.
| boredumb wrote:
| Ha, It did smell like a cop-out when I was told it, but a
| reasonable enough cop-out that I figured it was at least
| one form of attention they were after in the process of
| getting attention from onlookers.
| jacobolus wrote:
| > _like to get noticed_
|
| This is a euphemism for "take pleasure in causing physical
| discomfort to everyone within earshot".
| reddit_clone wrote:
| I wouldn't dismiss that claim out of hand.
|
| Whenever I am stuck in stop and go traffic, I can hear/feel
| lane splitting harleys coming from way behind. Sportbikes
| just whiz by, making you jump, especially if you were
| thinking of changing lanes.
|
| I don't believe 'loud pipes save lives' is completely
| bogus.
| nescioquid wrote:
| If it were really about saving lives, then the rational
| thing would be to use a safer form of transportation.
| Hazards like pot holes and debris are unmitigated by the
| sound of the vehicle, while other types of vehicles can
| have safety features a bike can't.
| bengale wrote:
| A guy that lived on the street down from mine used to ride his
| about at night, made my house shake. Was so happy when he
| seemed to move away.
| arnvald wrote:
| For around a year I lived next to a highway, which was one of
| the worst rental decisions I've made in my life.
|
| There was a constant stream of noise, but with the cars it
| wasn't a big problem, because it was the same volume all the
| time, so I quickly got used to it. Motorcycles though were a
| huge issue! Every 10-15 minutes there was some motorcycle
| passing that just distracted me from whatever I was doing. I
| left that apartment as soon as I could.
| the_only_law wrote:
| There's some asshole in my apartment complex who decided a
| car with an engine with a startup sound very similar loudness
| to a passing motorcycle. I just love walking outside to be
| greeted by that.
| metalliqaz wrote:
| if the typical biker was a 24 year old hispanic man, they would
| be outlawed before you could say "ay caramba". Instead, boomers
| and genx white guys get a pass.
| sneak wrote:
| Loud sounds are annoying to be sure, but this sounds also like
| a bit of an emotional regulation issue in addition, especially
| if just writing a comment about the event is enraging you.
|
| Stressing about that kind of stuff that you ultimately have
| little/no control over is an express train to an unhappy life.
| TheSpiceIsLife wrote:
| There might be some truth to this, though I don't know
| whether we have conscious control of it.
|
| There's some evidence to suggest magnesium deficiency can
| lead to an increase in _startle response_.
| tawayyyy wrote:
| you have no idea. i can even sympathize with a murderer. you
| know, self-defense, impulse... can be anything. but this?
| this is premediated. just one asshat can ruin entire town.
| these people deserve lifetime-imprisonment after multiple
| offence.
| wmeredith wrote:
| > these people deserve lifetime-imprisonment after multiple
| offence.
|
| You can't be serious when you say that you'd lock someone
| in a cage for the rest of their life because they broke a
| noise ordinance.
| tawayyyy wrote:
| why not? prisons are full of people that did much less.
| why a drug lord gets a life in prison? no one is forcing
| you to buy drugs. can you say same for these people?
| amelius wrote:
| And the people riding them use earplugs :)
|
| https://www.alpinehearingprotection.com/earplugs/motosafe-pr...
| nimbius wrote:
| Not for the pipes though. Most riders wear ear plugs for wind
| noise and traffic noise at highway speed.
| thethethethe wrote:
| I spent a year living in a house on a load road and it was awful.
| The worst part was the inconsistency. Every ten minutes or so a
| really load motorcycle or truck would drive by and shake the
| entire house. It was a constant distraction and it would wake me
| up several times a night. I left as soon as my lease up. I could
| see this environment taking years off your life if you in it for
| many years. In addition to the noise, diesel fumes would waft
| into my room if left the window open on a hot day. I will never
| live on a load road ever again, no matter how "nice" the pace is.
| Red_Leaves_Flyy wrote:
| I see the top few comments talking about motorcycles, leaf
| blowers, and automobiles.
|
| My pet peeve are jets. Living within ~5 miles of an air force
| base, or any major airport, is terrible. Everyone stops what
| they're doing for the for whatever duration a plane is in the
| area. Local and state politicians are powerless to do anything
| because of "the jobs".
| undefined1 wrote:
| imagine adding flying cars to the mix! it'd be hard to escape.
| joncrane wrote:
| That's a good one. Mine is helicopters. Military Blackhawks and
| a Sikorsky known as Marine-1 at times, to be specific.
|
| I live on the flight path from the White House to Camp David
| and they practice this flight multiple times per week. It makes
| sense because they need a full roster of people so they can
| provide minimum 2-deep 24 hour coverage and the folks need to
| be able to do it in their sleep in any weather conditions.
|
| It's still jarring to hear a trio of Blackhawks fly past me at
| a relatively low altitude.
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