[HN Gopher] TikTok and the network effects of creativity
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       TikTok and the network effects of creativity
        
       Author : MaximumMadness
       Score  : 88 points
       Date   : 2021-02-22 15:44 UTC (7 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.eugenewei.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.eugenewei.com)
        
       | jlykins wrote:
       | This comment is a slightly tangential shameless plug, but I just
       | want to point out that I loved the structure of this essay. There
       | were a lot of great little ideas that I don't think would have
       | seen the light of day in a more traditional sort of blog post.
       | 
       | > All the points I wanted to cover seem hyperlinked in a
       | sprawling loose tangle. This could easily have been several
       | standalone posts. I've been stuck on how to structure it.
       | 
       | > This piece is long, but if you get bored in any one section,
       | you can just scroll on the next one; they're separated by
       | horizontal rules for easy visual scanning. You can also read them
       | out of order. There are lots of cross-references, though, so if
       | you skip some of the segments, others may not make complete
       | sense. However, it's ultimately not a big deal.
       | 
       | I've long wondered how many essays don't get published because
       | the author struggles to generate a "through line." Sometimes
       | organizing ideas is harder than coming up with them. This is
       | certainly a problem I struggle with.
       | 
       | I've been working on software[1] that encourages you to publish
       | ambitious online media even if it's a bit disjointed. Currently,
       | only me and my friends and family are using it because it is
       | _very_ rough around the edges, but it is good enough that I
       | personally use it every single day.
       | 
       | If this sounds interesting to any HN comment readers I'd love to
       | give you a beta code or a live demo to hear your thoughts. Send
       | me an email at jon@edifice.pub
       | 
       | [1] https://edifice.pub
        
         | OrbitRock wrote:
         | What kind of format would it be published in?
         | 
         | This is pretty interesting as it is a problem I struggle with
         | too.
         | 
         | Your landing page there reminds me of something else I'm a fan
         | of, e.g. Building a Second Brain through notes and web clips as
         | discussed here: https://tanners.blog/diy-second-brain/
         | 
         | But these are more focused solely on the background processes
         | of organizing information.
         | 
         | I'm curious about how your system would encourage publishing,
         | "even if it's a bit disjointed", as that seems kind of the
         | logical next step. (And definitely a challenge for me too!)
        
           | jlykins wrote:
           | I'm a fan of Building a Second Brain too, and I've taken a
           | lot of inspiration from it. In fact, the precise reason I'm
           | working on this project is because "organizing information as
           | a background process" feels a bit too much like navel gazing
           | to me and things are a lot more fun when the process includes
           | interacting and sharing with other people.
           | 
           | The particular way I'm attempting to encourage publishing is
           | an editor that lets you lay out your stuff as a directed
           | graph instead of as a linked list. The reader navigates the
           | graph by clicking on hyperlinks that take them in tangential
           | directions that may or may not converge with the main thread.
           | 
           | The inspiration for this includes those really good
           | conversations you have with your friends where you go
           | completely off topic but in an interesting way, and also the
           | experience of going down a wikipedia or tvtropes rabbit hole
           | that consumes hours of your time.
           | 
           | It's a tough problem because your eyes and ears are only able
           | to process information serially, but concept-space is a
           | complex multi-dimensional snaggle. How do we bridge that gap?
           | The conventional answer is "good writing" but that's really
           | tough to do. Eugene Wei didn't feel up to the task with the
           | ideas in the OP, for example. I'm hoping that by giving
           | people more room to play with how they structure their
           | thoughts and ideas "writing skill" will be less of a
           | constraint on human communication. I definitely don't think
           | I've hit an optimal solution yet but it is a very fun problem
           | to work on and talk about!
        
       | nikki93 wrote:
       | I think the "each new member can enhance creativity of existing
       | members" vibe can exist generally among "scenes", and scenes
       | definitely can use technology that directly taps into this.
       | 
       | I like the "scenius" term for this from Brian Eno:
       | https://youtu.be/0qATeJcL1XQ (54:15 in that talk)
        
         | tp3 wrote:
         | TikTok describes itself as: "The most fun, honest, true and
         | honest place on the web you will ever get." That's how TikTok
         | feels. The thing about TikTok is that, like with Facebook
         | itself, you know every detail right from the beginning. Your
         | friends and everyone who you have ever interacted with on
         | Facebook are your peers. But TikTok is more powerful than
         | Facebook when it comes to the social fabric. TikTok is like a
         | community hub with social networks where everyone can be
         | themselves. There are no limits when it comes to who can do
         | what and how they can interact with each other.
        
       | uniqueid wrote:
       | Every video I have seen that managed to escape TikTok's confines
       | and infiltrate my consciousness could be inserted into an episode
       | of 'America's Funniest home Videos' and leave nobody the wiser.
        
       | Firebrand wrote:
       | I don't know why people are underestimating Instagram Reels.
       | Instagram may be becoming more of an entertainment app like
       | TikTok but it is still a social network. All content creators
       | care about is engagement, and having the ability to push your
       | short video into your Stories and your follower's main feed
       | increases your chances of it being seen instead of relying on an
       | algorithm.
        
       | adventured wrote:
       | The author is very incorrect.
       | 
       | > By network effects of creativity, I mean that every additional
       | user on TikTok makes every other user more creative.
       | 
       | That is false.
       | 
       | TikTok isn't a creativity amplification network, it's a mimic
       | network. The extreme majority of humans are mimics, they
       | essentially never create or do anything creative or original.
       | They are incapable of that (cue the outrage at such a statement,
       | even though it's true). They play follow the leader across a
       | lifetime. TikTok, like most social networks, represents that
       | accurately. What TikTok does not represent, is a burst of
       | individual creativity that is widespread.
       | 
       | It's a creativity distribution channel. The 0.01% that are
       | originators distribute creativity to the drone mimics and they
       | copy and share it.
       | 
       | That's exactly what the dance copying represents for example.
       | There is no great creativity explosion going on there, quite the
       | opposite. As with YouTube or any other distribution system, an
       | exceptionally tiny percentage of people are originators, actually
       | creative, the rest mimic and pander and try to scam their way to
       | some views by copying or ripping off originators (you see this
       | repeating trend represented in everything, eg content farms).
        
         | cambalache wrote:
         | Good point. Even here in HN is very common from n-th YC me too
         | company, to the "check out my innovative new JS
         | framework/library/tool".
        
         | zwieback wrote:
         | Quite the elitist view! When I watch a few TikTok videos I
         | quickly form an opinion whether something is creative or mere
         | copying, I know it when I see it. Just writing the whole thing
         | off seems insane, statistically speaking.
        
         | wsinks wrote:
         | A few questions for you, because I think you make a good point
         | about it being a mimic network (where each person puts a slight
         | spin on it).
         | 
         | 1. Have you heard of the belief of "Human Design"? That belief
         | / theory / spiritual guide has a similar distribution to what
         | you're talking about. I'm just curious if your thinking was
         | independent to that or if you've ever heard of it.
         | (https://www.jovianarchive.com/Human_Design/Types)
         | 
         | 2. How do you define originality? Is it something where "you
         | know it when you see it", or is it something else?
         | 
         | 3. Thinking of probabilities, wouldn't it also make sense that
         | the default for people is to be un-original? We only have so
         | many elements and so many places, I have to imagine that people
         | being 'incapable of [doing anything creative or original]' is
         | less a value statement and more just a logical progression of
         | probability.
         | 
         | 4. I've also come to a feeling that a person doing something
         | that they've seen before, but do not see right at that very
         | minute, is 'non-internet brain thinking'. We didn't have visual
         | records so prevalent until just recently in humanity's
         | lifetime. Repetition of behavior (lately sometimes called
         | 'holding space for X') is a useful function for social
         | networks, giving validity to someone's creativity.
         | 
         | Again, not trying to invalidate anything you're saying (and I
         | noted your 'cue the outrage' comment, hence why I'm over
         | specifying this too)
         | 
         | Super interesting take on the article, I've been wondering
         | similar things for a while.
        
         | wilde wrote:
         | TikTok is powered by "yes, and", which is a perfectly fine form
         | of creativity.
        
         | willio58 wrote:
         | This reads to me like one of those 90's articles over-
         | simplifying and underestimating the internet. Not that what
         | you're saying is completely wrong, and trust me I'm not saying
         | TikTok == the Internet, but the belittling tone is off-putting.
        
           | adventured wrote:
           | I'd have to put a lot of effort into walking around the
           | inevitable tone that is given off by calling the majority of
           | people mimics. I know how that would have to come across. I
           | don't think it's worth taking that long of a stroll to reach
           | that outcome, the people that are going to disagree and
           | instantly downvote due to outrage are never going to agree
           | with the mimic premise no matter what I say or how I tone it.
           | 
           | I don't view the premise as bad at all, or negative. It makes
           | sense, it's a very reasonable biological system of
           | replicating/copying what works and passing it along; it's
           | very energy efficient for a species, and historically we've
           | had to conserve energy, our evolution would strongly favor a
           | mimic what works system. As a concept it also doesn't elevate
           | us above other biological systems that operate on this
           | planet, we're not that special; whereas to pretend that
           | everyone can be da Vinci is to falsify what humans are, to
           | pretend every person is a creativity giant in waiting if only
           | they got the right encouragement. It's just more of everyone
           | gets a trophy culture in action.
        
         | starfallg wrote:
         | As a corollary to that, genuine creativity requires a lot more
         | time and effort to appreciate than a 60 second vertical video.
         | 
         | Most of social media is just shallow attention grabbing time
         | sinks. IOW, attention hacks.
        
           | adventured wrote:
           | I generally agree with that. It's one of the things people
           | loved about TikTok, they got to feel like they were doing
           | something creative or original, producing creative content,
           | without having to invest years into learning how to actually
           | dance. Copy some basic arm motions and movements, repeat it a
           | lot until you memorize it, then record it and publish it. It
           | requires very little thought, and the young crowd that is
           | mostly doing it has a huge surplus of physical energy to put
           | into copying & playing back mentally empty physical movement.
        
         | knolax wrote:
         | > The extreme majority of humans are mimics, they essentially
         | never create or do anything creative or original. They are
         | incapable of that (cue the outrage at such a statement, even
         | though it's true).
         | 
         | Of course people are going to be outraged over the statement.
         | You're playing a semantic game where you came up with your own
         | definition of creativity that excludes what most people do, and
         | then not actually defining it or justifying it. If you used a
         | more common definition of creative you'd have no argument to
         | make.
         | 
         | Novelty isn't the only thing that makes something creative, a
         | string of randomly generated numbers is always novel but
         | wouldn't be considered creative. Creativity requires novelty
         | conveyed through recognizable patterns, which means some amount
         | of mimicry has to be involved.
        
           | psyc wrote:
           | Every dictionary definition of the word I'm looking at right
           | now includes the words "original", "originality", or "not
           | imitated."
           | 
           | I think the word "prolific" applies to what TikTok
           | facilitates, much more than the word "creative." And
           | personally I find the amount of word for word and beat for
           | beat mimicry on the app maddening.
        
             | knolax wrote:
             | > Every dictionary definition of the word I'm looking at
             | right now includes the words "original", "originality", or
             | "not imitated."
             | 
             | Citing dictionary definitions just shifts your argument
             | from one word whose meaning you didn't define to another
             | word whose meaning you haven't defined. Is the Mona Lisa
             | original? It's not the first oil painting, nor the first
             | portrait, nor even the first painting of an Italian
             | noblewoman made in the renaissance style. Yet it's commonly
             | considered to be creative despite being imitative and
             | unoriginal in all those previously mentioned aspects. What
             | definition of original can you then make that
             | simultaneously includes the Mona Lisa, is mutually
             | exclusive with any imitation, and excludes the "majority of
             | humans".
        
         | tp3 wrote:
         | In TikTok, it is easy to dismiss the whole project because,
         | well, it's not a huge deal. It's fun. It's easy to take for
         | granted that the entire thing is the work of a single person
         | who is basically a public relations and marketing specialist
         | named TiKTok. This is not a joke. This is a reality that
         | requires every minute of the day to be spent creating an avatar
         | for their fan base of 6.5M.
         | 
         | But TiKTok has only just launched that avatar. TiKTok has
         | created another one. They are still creating the first and are
         | hoping to add another.
         | 
         | And as a result, TikTok has become this strange thing called
         | "the Internet's Most Dangerous Video." For some reason, even
         | people who are a little skeptical have found the world and
         | become so accustomed to the idea of TikTok and their little
         | thing that they can't imagine how this project can kill their
         | brains for some of the crazy shit they're actually watching on
         | it.
        
         | analyst74 wrote:
         | "good artists copy; great artists steal"
         | 
         | Even someone as great as Picasso would not have been able to
         | create the masterwork he left us without learning and getting
         | inspirations (aka, steal) from other artists before his time.
         | 
         | If you ever think someone is creating good original art
         | (because shitty original art is easy to create), chances are
         | you are just not familiar with the work they stole from.
        
         | OrbitRock wrote:
         | Maybe all creativity is just mimics who repeat things and add a
         | little bit of variation.
         | 
         | I think the book Steal Like an Artist addresses this.
        
           | cambalache wrote:
           | Or maybe it isnt, and the great breakthroughs are the result
           | of fantastic imaginative and courageous minds.
        
             | OrbitRock wrote:
             | Fantastic and courageous minds working from the void?
             | 
             | Or fantastic and courageous minds responding to some
             | cultural or historical material?
             | 
             | (Which would be much in the way a TikToker responds to a
             | meme while adding some of their own spice).
             | 
             | Let's not get bogged down by the fact that one domain might
             | be perceived as more valuable/respected and the other not
             | so.
             | 
             | What have philosophers ever done post-Socrates except come
             | across the ecosystem of historical philosophers and riff
             | off of that?
        
               | cambalache wrote:
               | Yes, fantastic and courageous minds. The kind of person
               | we all due our civilization: Newton, Hooke, Darwin,Gauss,
               | Euler,Watts.
        
               | RealityVoid wrote:
               | I think there is some truth in that those characters were
               | more creative than many other, but they did not create in
               | a void. Your first example, Newton, said "If I have seen
               | further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants."
               | Who am I to contradict Newton? :)
        
               | cambalache wrote:
               | Arent you the same kid saying in other comment that there
               | is not creativity, just imitation? Take a position and
               | stick to it. BTW you are misinterpreting Newton (on
               | purpose or not). He didnt say he copy them, he was humbly
               | acknowledging there have been giants in science before
               | him.
        
               | OrbitRock wrote:
               | Well, I think the insight in the article here is that a
               | network (including such "giants" that came before) can
               | boost the creativity of those who come after, even
               | including a new giant such as Newton.
               | 
               | Think about any modern scientist. Has their creativity
               | been boosted by the existence of all the other
               | scientists?
               | 
               | If I'm a physicist, the existence of Newton boosted my
               | creativity because now I can apply calculus to problems.
               | If I'm a biologist, Im leaning on Darwin and all the
               | insights of statisticians and the people who have
               | delineated the methods and findings around which I
               | organize my science.
               | 
               | People have previously innovated the concepts, methods,
               | and foundational understandings, and finding new insight
               | can be a matter of combining these in novel ways.
               | 
               | I don't think this is completely different than what the
               | author is describing in TikTok. Both the format and
               | ecosystem of tools that the service creates, and the
               | social network of users create an environment where it's
               | easier to go out and make something.
               | 
               | A similar thing happens in science.
        
             | ramoz wrote:
             | I dont think this is true. Creativity happens when you
             | combine/blend prior knowledge. We don't magically create
             | new information without prior meaning.
             | 
             | TikTok acts likes this and the remix is like a
             | blending/combining prior creativity that leads to
             | continuous new creativity.
        
               | cambalache wrote:
               | This very easily refuted, then no creativity is possible
               | because who was going to create the "first knowledge"
        
               | RealityVoid wrote:
               | Your refutations is even more easily refuted. First
               | knowledge is created by observing the world around us.
               | Mimickry of the natural world is all around us, you even
               | see it in animals.
        
               | cambalache wrote:
               | So you could create the knowledge without imitating
               | others. Try again. The second time maybe will be better.
               | That without entering in the discredited philosophical
               | position of empiricism for epistemology.
        
         | boh wrote:
         | In its basic form, creativity is an act of creation. Whether or
         | not these creations are at the Picasso/Mozart/Proust level of
         | high art, creativity is technically operating in this network.
         | Measuring creativity in the way where more of x produces more
         | of y (more users=more creativity) is of course, not a real
         | analysis. More people produce more content which may or may not
         | be creative in nature (it can be a product review for
         | instance).
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | dec0dedab0de wrote:
         | Sounds like you're talking about the difference between a
         | sourcerer and a wizard in Discworld.
        
         | ggggtez wrote:
         | I think you're wrong, but I don't think this should be
         | downvoted.
         | 
         | I think it helps to compare "copy and remix" with "does
         | nothing". Compare "watched 50 difference dances" with "saw 0
         | dances". When you see it in that light, it would be difficult
         | to argue that some people _don 't_ get inspired by seeing new
         | things.
         | 
         | Now, I might argue that the level of creativity added from each
         | additional user is not linear. That the creativity added is
         | vacuous, pointless, 99% mimicry, and doesn't actually move the
         | conversation forward...
         | 
         | But there are those 1% of users who are able to participate in
         | the global conversation and say something new, who otherwise
         | would not be able to participate, that I think it's at least
         | worth acknolwedging.
        
         | dragonwriter wrote:
         | > TikTok isn't a creativity amplification network, it's a mimic
         | network.
         | 
         | Replication with some source of variation (such as even just
         | "people aren't perfect mimics", but "some people apply some
         | minor modicum of creativity" enhances this) plus selective
         | pressure (such as interesting novelty getting rewarded) is
         | sufficient for it to function as as Darwinian creativity
         | amplification system by way of being principally a mimic
         | network.
        
           | adventured wrote:
           | I suspect that out of a zillion mimic events you will get a
           | small number of truly creative bursts, yes. I think it's very
           | rare though and wouldn't qualify as being widespread
           | creativity or origination. Also those bursts of new/original
           | content coming out of initial copying may primarily come from
           | burgeoning originators that are just being born so to speak,
           | rather than from the mimic group. I doubt the process overall
           | results in an increase in originators.
           | 
           | edit: to the repeat downvoters instantly hitting every one of
           | my comments, those that don't like the fact that I'm pointing
           | out that humans are 99%+ mimics, I'd encourage you to add to
           | the discussion and dissent from what I'm saying. I'd enjoy
           | reading that counter. Everyone isn't a butterfly just waiting
           | to be unleashed into the next da Vinci, that's a fantasy. It
           | makes perfect sense that the majority operate as
           | distributors, mimics, for things that the 0.001% come up with
           | that work effectively. It would be an enormous biological
           | waste of energy for everyone to be so creative, the mimic and
           | distribute what works approach is logical. Humans do it with
           | everything, including learning / copying skills, behaviors,
           | systems, almost anything you can name. For example, there are
           | always a very small number of teachers (as a share of the
           | population) distributing knowledge/skills, and most teachers
           | are also mimics, but they're custodian mimics that use
           | various bullhorns to (ideally) spread what works faster.
           | Teachers are rarely originators, the knowledge is passed down
           | a distribution chain by mimics that serve various functions
           | along the way. That's how a lot of systems in human societies
           | work (politics and religion all work that way).
        
           | robocat wrote:
           | Recognising creativity is also creative. Art is in the eye of
           | the beholder (not necessarily the creator).
           | 
           | Something can be authored that was unintentionally
           | interesting, but amplified by the creative recognition of
           | some weird facet. For example cat videos - the cat isn't
           | trying to get likes! Edit: or a security camera video where
           | there is zero intent to create, and the art is in the
           | recognition of the clip by everybody.
        
           | orangeoxidation wrote:
           | "Everything is a remix"
           | 
           | TikTok being a "mimic network" does not show it's not
           | creative.
           | 
           | Creativity is primarily a product of creation, rather than
           | one of originality and TikTok is, in fact, inspiring to
           | create.
        
       | tomerico wrote:
       | The most disruptive part of Tiktok is how it managed to
       | dramatically reduce the "rich gets richer" effect of
       | entertainment platforms. If you upload a video, TikTok will show
       | it to other users even if it's your first. This allows them to
       | assess it and progressively grow its audience. On YouTube and
       | Instagram you'd have to rely on search traffic or external
       | sources to build up your audience and get recommended (except for
       | the new Reels / YouTube Shorts that are mimicking TikTok's UI).
       | 
       | I've done an experiment on the new year and created a video on a
       | new account trying to catch people's attention (relevant to the
       | new year, funny, with something unusual). I've done i on
       | Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube. On TikTok it gained over half a
       | million views, with 0 views on YouTube and Instagram.
       | 
       | Another way to frame this is around the Gini Coefficient of these
       | platform. TikTok has a much lower inequality measure, which
       | increases the incentives to produce content and hence the quality
       | of content.
        
         | mtgx wrote:
         | This is an issue I've always hated about Steemit.com, too.
         | 
         | There were a few writing mediocre at best content making up to
         | $1,500 a day/post at some point, just because they managed to
         | gain a lot of followers initially, while everyone else had to
         | deal with writing dozens of posts and making only a few dollars
         | a month, if that.
         | 
         | Social platforms should take this "inequality" issue a lot more
         | seriously. It's in their long-term benefit to have thousands,
         | millions of people who "make it big" on their platform, not
         | just a handful that make it "really big."
        
         | user00012-ab wrote:
         | Are you sure this isn't more of the Medium model, where they
         | can show you a bunch of new people all the time, but you'll
         | never actually follow them or see them ever again (just another
         | nebulous medium post)? So really the only person that profits
         | in this model is the company hosting the content.
        
           | fragmede wrote:
           | That happens with TikTok, but it's a result of the app's UX.
           | (It seems intentional, but that's conjecture.) Following a
           | user whose video you like is easy, but the app defaults to
           | the "For You" page, which presents videos as picked by an
           | algorithm. That algorithm doesn't just iterate over all the
           | videos out of a user's followed artists, leading to the
           | effect on creators mentioned. I may never see an artist's new
           | content if it doesn't surface via the For You page.
        
         | feralimal wrote:
         | Serious question - if we are being recommended anything to
         | watch, shouldn't we have some sort of idea of what the
         | algorithm does?
         | 
         | I would love to see advocates for openness in algorithms, as we
         | have advocates for open source software. We have no idea what
         | filters are applied by tiktok, youtube, etc. If I knew what
         | they were, would I agree with them?
         | 
         | Questions that arise for me, are:
         | 
         | * What are the value judgements behind the algorithmic
         | recommendations?
         | 
         | * Is it ok for corporations to entrain their users with
         | specific content, if that it is not based on a neutral
         | algorithm?
         | 
         | * There is surely interest on the part of corporations to
         | promote or constrain certain ideas, that do not suit them.
         | These would play out in the political, economic, legal domains.
         | If the algorithm does not let you know, this would be a lie by
         | omission, and therefore immoral IMO.
         | 
         | Etc.
         | 
         | I don't think I have seen any discussion on this, albeit I
         | think it is a hugely important issue.
        
         | tp3 wrote:
         | I watch TikTok and watch their videos because my audience is
         | just me. And because they are just me. I don't want to watch
         | anyone else because I believe it's not worth watching them. But
         | they are my audience. That's all I want. And they are my
         | audience. And I feel like I should be making sure that they
         | feel that way for me.
         | 
         | And they are making damn sure that it is worth watching.
         | 
         | When I think of this "I believe this thing is fucking worth
         | watching" line I think of the way things used to be.
        
           | justwalt wrote:
           | GPT3?
        
             | _nothing wrote:
             | That's also my suspicion. Their other comments seem equally
             | unintelligible to me. Could also be someone for whom
             | English isn't their first language, but I do suspect I'm
             | going to find this account on some GPT-3 writeup in a few
             | months time.
        
               | tp3 wrote:
               | I am not an GPT-3 robot and I do not even having access
               | to API or model while I am on the wait listing. I do not
               | speak of native ENglish and maybe no great writer. Please
               | excuse this deficiency.
        
             | tp3 wrote:
             | Do you mean the model? What about it?
        
               | psyc wrote:
               | I think they mean the text of your comment. I'm unable to
               | parse it.
        
         | RGamma wrote:
         | To be fair, the discoverability on Youtube is shit and has been
         | for years now (another topic).
         | 
         | As much as I dislike TikTok for being idiotic, that's actually
         | an aspect to sort of like about it.
         | 
         | Of course it's still algorithmic spoon-feeding, but it seems
         | they're inching closer to saner discovery tools. One can
         | hope...
        
         | drawkbox wrote:
         | Youtube early days were similar to TikTok or any new platform,
         | there are now just regular people doing creative things. As
         | more and more videos are added, more businesses start to
         | participate and more video depth/detail is added, then it gets
         | harder to compete. It becomes less about just content value
         | creation and more about content value extraction.
         | 
         | It is almost as if these platforms need a few different
         | algorithm setups, the ones that are for more long term quality
         | content, indie/business and just one that is raw where fresh
         | content can be seen. They try this with "trending" type systems
         | but due to market size they are usually heavily manipulated.
         | 
         |  _Right now_ featured platforms like TikTok are similar to like
         | Twitter in that only the latest stuff matters. On Youtube it is
         | more about quality, long term content for many creators. It is
         | about _right now_ but also you 'll find amazing videos on
         | history, art, gaming, development, markets, information and
         | more. Youtube, Vimeo and others or sites that have been
         | available for a while, are more about all types of creators so
         | the real-time hype of new content isn't as successful for
         | creatives, they start building more niche or long term bases
         | that requires more work to produce. To compete the levels of
         | production go up and up.
         | 
         | Shorter term real-time fresh platforms like TikTok are like the
         | "new" algorithms on reddit/HN or the Twitter style freshness.
         | 
         | Longer term real-time fresh AND detailed deeper content videos
         | are more like what you find on when looking for information on
         | a search engine like Google or "popular" algorithms and more
         | refined, more competitive and owned by larger players, but also
         | more about information and answers.
        
         | cma wrote:
         | When I visit TikTok without logging in I see a side bar
         | recommending Will Smith, Gordon Ramsey, Kevin Hart, Selena
         | Gomez, and SnoopDogg.
         | 
         | They may surface other stuff better than other platforms, but
         | they definitely have the same "rich gets richer" stuff in the
         | default landing page too.
        
         | rrdharan wrote:
         | This always sounded pretty unequal to me.. has it stopped?
         | 
         | https://theintercept.com/2020/03/16/tiktok-app-moderators-us...
        
           | awooooo56709 wrote:
           | If you read the actual "leak" it's obviously that the article
           | is twisting words. It suppresses videos where the ugliness of
           | a person is the main focus, not videos with ugly people.
           | That's a perfectly legitimate anti-bullying tactic. Ugly
           | people don't make videos focusing on their ugliness, people
           | mocking ugly people do. It doesn't say anything about
           | censoring poor people, just videos where the environment is
           | dilapidated. Saying that it leads to censoring poor people is
           | a big logical leap. Most of the rest of the article is just
           | filler that adds nothing to the central thesis. Classic
           | "journalism".
        
       | [deleted]
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | skybrian wrote:
       | It sounds like a tremendous amount of creativity, but limited in
       | scope to making videos? It seems kind of narrowly focused on
       | entertainment.
        
         | saurik wrote:
         | ...or anything else that you can fit into video, such as news
         | and politics or education and editorial.
        
         | Spivak wrote:
         | Sorta but in a lot of TikTok niches the endgame isn't really a
         | video, that's just how it's presented. All the hobbyist
         | communities make videos that show off their work and inspire
         | others in their bubble. Like sure the video is "entertainment"
         | in that it holds your attention but that's pretty much the
         | extent of it.
         | 
         | Like hobby TikTok is genuinely just a bunch of nerds being
         | genuinely excited to show you something they're passionate
         | about or something they made. It's so god damn refreshing. Like
         | the early days of Tumblr.
        
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