[HN Gopher] We are starting to operate our CNC machines remotely
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We are starting to operate our CNC machines remotely
Author : Sharapolas
Score : 99 points
Date : 2021-02-19 14:53 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (1d.works)
(TXT) w3m dump (1d.works)
| soheil wrote:
| Pretty epic. But doesn't it need constant lubrication for the
| head not to get too warm?
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| Yes! Most CNC setups will flood the cutting area with coolant.
| It moderates tool temperature and also helps carry away chips.
|
| The machines have filters to recover and recycle the coolant.
| They might also have augurs to carry chips out of the machine.
|
| The coolant can be topped up periodically between shifts as
| needed, when the waste chips are collected.
|
| At scale, these things can be automated even further. For
| medium sized shops it's easy to pay someone for a couple hours
| of labor to do it every few days.
| a2tech wrote:
| Typically only when cutting metal. And harder metal especially.
| Wood and the like will often have an spray of air directed at
| the cutting bit but thats simply to help clear away chips and
| clean the cutting surface. Helps keep a nice finish and good
| visibility.
| megraf wrote:
| Actually, it's a little different. Using coolant is the norm
| even when doing mild steels. You can remove material quicker,
| your part remains cooler, and your tools remain cleaner.
|
| There's even cuttings bits that have integral cooling (holes
| in the cutting surface).
| a1369209993 wrote:
| Pretty sure even the mildest steel is still a hard metal.
| Soft metal would be something like copper or aluminum IIRC.
| (Or lead or gold, moreso, but you probably wouldn't want to
| be machining those for obvious reasons.)
| a2tech wrote:
| Right--I support a fair number of machine shops and they're
| all moving to CNC (although they're using a lot manual
| machines still). 5 axis is nice and there's a surprising
| amount of manual tooling changes.
|
| We had a problem where one of the integral cooling loops
| had a tube come off and it sprayed the better part of a 50
| gallon drum of coolant all over the shop before someone got
| over and hit the e-stop.
| duckfang wrote:
| That sounds correct. Unless you have a sensor, there's no
| way to make a meaningful detection and decision to stop
| something.
|
| And sensors that are reliable and durable cost $$$$.
| myself248 wrote:
| Yeah, watch some CNC videos on youtube or whatever! The
| (usually blue) liquid spraying everywhere is coolant.
|
| Fancier machines will have a hollow spindle and can actually
| force the coolant through an also-hollow tool, so it emerges
| right near the cutting face. The simpler approach just uses a
| nozzle pointed in the general direction of the cutter. In
| between, there are programmable nozzles....
| joshdick wrote:
| Now that's it possible for the machines to be operated remotely,
| how long till those operator jobs are offshored?
| megraf wrote:
| you should read the article my friend :)
| yrgulation wrote:
| My master's degree project was cncs designed to operate like
| servers in a service oriented architecture.
|
| Each machine exposed an api (robot arm for feeding, cnc for
| machining), jobs were routed using a queue server like rabbit mq
| (when a machine becomes available it just consumes events). I
| built the cncs myself using raspberry pis. Basically, i built a
| blue print of a fully automated factory.
| sneak wrote:
| > _First, was the network setup. We needed to merge multi-site
| networks into a mesh topology network where all the nodes could
| be interconnected which was solved using a hub and spoke topology
| VPN. Although, it does have its own drawbacks it had a good cost-
| benefit ratio when it comes to setup and deployment and is
| working for us for now._
|
| How is "mesh" solved with "hub and spoke"? If your hub goes
| offline, everything stops; the whole point of a mesh is to avoid
| the SPOF.
|
| > _Next, was building the dashboard which not only required the
| making of the UI but required figuring out how we're going to
| expose and manage resources in our shop network. We decided to
| build the backend in the spirit of Kubernetes, so it is easy to
| manage at scale with the addition of new sensors, machines and
| full-blown sites themselves._
|
| What does that mean? Docker containers?
| d00bianista wrote:
| IPIP/IPsec and OSPF would do nicely for efficient site-to-site
| meshing.
|
| But, adding docker to the equation makes it much more
| complicated. I'd prefer just operating the machines over IP and
| get rid of all remote desktop related latency all together.
| fudged71 wrote:
| This is terrifying and impressive :)
|
| We built a similar system for 3D printers. There's nothing quite
| like intentionally giving access to someone on the other side of
| the globe and having them make something for you in front of your
| hands and eyes. It's not _technically_ teleporting, but close
| enough to have that same magical feeling.
| spyder wrote:
| It's called lights-out manufacturing:
|
| _" Factories that employ "lights-out manufacturing" are fully
| automated and require no human presence on-site."_
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lights_out_(manufacturing)
| u678u wrote:
| For some reason this scares me at a core level more than
| anything else. Seems inevitable that Skynet will control the
| factory sooner or later.
| riskneutral wrote:
| If I'm not mistaken, Apple's machine shops are almost fully
| automated. They bought an enormous number of CNC machines to
| make MacBooks, etc.
| varjag wrote:
| Of course noone solders SMD or mills device chassis manually,
| but top-level assembly is mostly manual labor.
| ska wrote:
| That's not going to be done in the machine shops though, to
| GP's point.
| megraf wrote:
| I moonlight at a machine shop. I'm not a machinist, and I'm
| hardly a machine operator.
|
| Machine shops need bodies to do a few things (some of which OP
| mentioned) loading materials, removing materials, changing broken
| cutting bits, cleaning the machines (especially if you're cutting
| something like magnesium).
|
| Machine shops also need bodies to build jigs to hold pieces to
| the machine table while the machines remove material (think 5
| axis pieces, especially).
|
| Despite all of this - there's an amazing amount of automation at
| play. Tool changes, coolant, temperature monitoring, the list
| goes on. I'm currently building some automation hardware and
| software so we can start to fill the gap of 'dead' time where
| machinists are pressing buttons, loading in blanks, and are bored
| out of their minds.
|
| It's such an interesting space.
| blackrock wrote:
| Maybe someone can build a robot to service and clean the
| machines?
| polishdude20 wrote:
| The other day, I realized our Haas CNC machine actually had a
| programmable coolant nozzle. You can program the nozzle to
| spray coolant at various locations!
| myself248 wrote:
| Yup, it's fun to make a "wash the part off" program that
| drives the table back and forth a few times with the nozzle
| at progressive angles. Or aim right at the perimeter of a big
| face mill.
| Quequau wrote:
| Moonlighting at a machine shop is something that I am very
| interested in doing. How did you wind up with such a position?
| paddy_m wrote:
| I wrote an email to friends years ago about a side job I got
| at a machine shop while working in tech, it was quite well
| received. email in my profile, contact me and I'll send it to
| you.
| Ccecil wrote:
| Depends on where you live. I recommend just going around and
| meeting machinists. Look into local meetings...Society of
| Manufacturing and such. Typically there are things like shop
| tours put on monthly (non-pandemic times). Talk to local
| machine shop instructors and/or metal suppliers and see who
| might be interested in hiring...they usually know everyone.
|
| My area has many very, very large machine shops but it has a
| larger number of small "mom and pop" shops which just run a
| few machines. I have found that the people who run either
| type are equally as approachable...it is hit and miss if they
| are willing to even let you in the shop at all without NDAs
| and such...then there are others who have no issues with it.
|
| Most of the really difficult to learn stuff in the field is
| fixturing and CAM setup. Once that is layed out it is mostly
| just changing parts and watching the machine run...but there
| is a lot to be learned while that is going on.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| I've never moonlighted, but I agree about the
| approachability.
|
| Some time ago I lived in an industrial city with lots of
| small machine shops and especially lots of Screw Machine
| shops. I found that they really appreciated that I was
| interested in what they did and were willing to show me
| around.
|
| Fast forward to about a year or two ago and I had to call
| on a prospective customer with a sales person. I didn't
| know until I got there that they were a branch of a well
| known workholding manufacturer and our contact offered to
| give me a tour of their machine shop. Pure heaven: I've
| never seen such a collection of modern, massive machine
| tools. The toolchanger alone on one of these machines was
| bigger than most VMC's I had ever seen. Their pallets were
| multiple feet long (not even sure if you call them pallets
| at that point) and ran on external tracks from machine to
| machine. Easily the biggest lights-out shop I've ever seen.
|
| That was by far the most fun part of the sales call :-)
| Quequau wrote:
| Thanks for the reply. When / if the pandemic ends I have to
| move and I am seriously considering taking a few machining
| courses at a community college and changing careers.
| dogma1138 wrote:
| You also need bodies to listen to the tool... ever since I
| build my small CNC machine I've learned just how important it
| is to listen to the cutting especially when you are doing
| adaptive passes to make sure your software doesn't cock up the
| cuts.
|
| This is probably the biggest area where i can see machine
| learning be actually useful with acoustic sensors.
|
| I'm not an experienced machinist by any stretch of the
| imagination but even with my relatively small experience I can
| tell how good or bad the finish of a cut is going to be based
| on the sound the machine makes.
| iancmceachern wrote:
| Great idea,, it already exists: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wi
| ki/CNC_machine_tool_monitoring_...
| dogma1138 wrote:
| I would assume it does especially on 6-7 figure machines
| but I think even with basic microphones this might be a
| good application for ML at the small shop and hobbyist
| levels and I haven't seen that yet.
| ortusdux wrote:
| A few years back I toured a machine shop staffed primarily by
| blind individuals. The Javits-Wagner-O'Day Act requires federal
| agencies purchase some select goods made by the blind when
| possible. Roughly three hundred employees, 90%+ somewhere
| between legally blind and fully blind, and 1/3rd or so also
| deaf.
|
| Someone more skilled than I could and should fill a book with
| the accessibility changes they have made over 50 years of
| operation. Every single inch of the place had fascinating
| design details. All machines were laser fenced. Vacuum work
| holding with audio alignment sensors. All paths had a raised
| curb. All readouts on CNCs were capable of displaying text one
| 15" tall letter at a time, or reading G-code aloud or via
| braille. All offices have one bright wall and one dark wall to
| provide high contrast for sign language interpreters.
|
| One of the sighted employees I met works in the accessibility
| dept. redesigning systems to be compatible with various
| disabilities. He had a full lab of 3d printers, CNCS, and
| enough other equipment to make a makerspace jealous.
|
| The company also did some amazing outreach through their
| charity. The provided dogs, housing, and general mobility
| training (how to navigate busses, etc.).
|
| I should check in and see how they are coping with covid.
| zachrose wrote:
| What was this company? That sounds amazing.
| ortusdux wrote:
| The Lighthouse for the Blind. I donate to their charity
| annually.
|
| Here is a link to a virtual tour of the facility I visited:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzfCNQatw00
| calvinmorrison wrote:
| This is absolutely the coolest thing I have seen so far
| this year. They have more videos where individual works
| explain how the work from a call center operator to a
| machinist journeyman!
| tsss wrote:
| Is laser fencing not mandatory in the US?
| profsnuggles wrote:
| Laser fencing is the worst, pressure mats are approximately
| 1000x better. Our machine with the laser fence is always
| stopping for no reason because there was some dust. I just
| cut 50 sheets of MDF yea there is going to be some dust.
|
| In woodworking the new trend is to put pads on the gantry
| with pressure sensors so if the machine smacks you it
| stops.
|
| That is really great when you are testing new programs you
| can see what is happening without binoculars. The only
| downside is that they limit the max rapid speed on the
| machines so when it hits someone they are much less likely
| to get knocked over.
| bluGill wrote:
| How do those systems stop hair or clothing from getting
| sucked into the spinning bits? Those two modes have
| always been the more dangerous ones for spinning tools.
| profsnuggles wrote:
| The gantry is enclosed, it's not possible to get close to
| the router unless you are doing something really...
| really wrong.
|
| This is the machine I was running like 20 minutes before
| posting that comment.
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AuwwPdBSf8
|
| I have no idea why the people in that video cut a hole in
| their door. Seems like a really stupid idea to me. But
| you can see in a normal machine that someone hasn't
| modified to be more dangerous you can't get to the the
| spiny sharp bits.
| aj7 wrote:
| No not in ordinary machine shops.
| oauea wrote:
| Wow, that sounds incredibly inefficient and unsafe.
| benlivengood wrote:
| Humans are inefficient and unsafe machines, to be sure.
| Soft and fragile, slow to respond, 98% blind to the EM
| spectrum, insanely low communication bandwidth, unusually
| difficult to motivate, prone to acts of defiance,
| uncalibrated and wandering accelerometers and rotation
| sensors, very low precision parts, require a host of
| special atmospheric and environmental conditions to be met,
| etc.
|
| We're replacing them as fast as we can, honest.
| burnte wrote:
| The problem with replacements is the installed base is
| HUGE.
| earleybird wrote:
| And they self-replicate - but we're working on that too.
| neolog wrote:
| Nice one.
| bordercases wrote:
| On what metrics?
| andrepd wrote:
| Many things are "inefficient", such as building stairs and
| a ramp where just stairs would be cheaper. Then again
| there's more to life than that.
| ska wrote:
| > Wow, that sounds incredibly inefficient and unsafe.
|
| Only if imagine an unrealistic system where these people
| were asked to adapt to an existing shop floor, rather than
| the other way around.
| bluGill wrote:
| I didn't catch anything unsafe. They have laser trip wires
| anywhere things might be dangerous. This is becomming
| common industry practice anyway because even people who can
| see can miss seeing something - a common problem when doing
| repetitive tasks is to make it faster and faster without
| realizing that you are getting closer and closer to
| something unsafe until you loose your arm.
|
| It isn't clear how inefficient they really are. Sure it
| takes longer to explain to a blind person who to clean the
| chips off, but in the end it is just a broom (vacuum?) and
| the only need to do ensure they get everything. Once you
| train them they have it. Likewise it takes a little longer
| to explain where the hold downs are then to explain it, but
| not that much and there are good reasons for hold down
| placement so once the blind person learns the location
| there isn't much more training.
|
| I assume they have a few sighted people around for the
| unique setups that are not enough like something else that
| it be put into brial. (deaf but not blind can be good at
| this)
|
| Again back to my first point: everything they pioneer and
| make work is something that other industry will be
| interested in as well. Maybe someone with sight can do it
| easily today, but often once they perfect a method it is
| better than what the sighted person can do.
|
| Overall I'd prefer to not be doing manual labor myself, but
| if you can't handle enough school to get a good degree...
| I'm glad places like this exist for those who need it.
| ortusdux wrote:
| Exactly. They are actually efficient enough to be quite
| competitive in the private sector. They have large
| contracts with Boeing, and they manufacture a wide
| variety of things like white boards, backpacks, shovels,
| canteens, etc.
| dwohnitmok wrote:
| Many moons ago I also spent a fair amount of time in a machine
| shop, although never more than in an amateur capacity (I'm not
| sure I'd call what I did even moonlighting, mainly an
| enthusiast making small stuff), and I was never using really
| fancy machines as a result.
|
| What struck me was how just how little was automated, how stuff
| that was nominally automated still had quite a bit of manual
| labor. I had always had in my mind that with CNC machines you
| just stick the metal in the vise, load the program, hit start,
| and you're good to go, but there's manual calibration, facing
| off and the like that needs to be done before every run.
|
| For small, simple pieces I would often forgo the CNC automation
| and just manually make the piece myself, even when I had
| already made the piece in SolidWorks (and so could easily
| generate G code).
|
| I've heard that for really fancy machines it's truly a push
| button process (as long as you feed it precision milled
| blanks), but I've never had a chance to actually use those.
| extrapickles wrote:
| You can get electronic probes that measure the stock
| automatically so you don't need precision blanks. The probe
| loads in the tool changer so it can be completely automated.
| Automatic tool setting makes it so operators don't need to
| measure new tooling in tool holders, and tooling wear can be
| monitored automatically.
|
| I dabble in running a small machine-shop, and we are able to
| automate a good chunk of what people still do manually. The
| stock we use is cheap, straight from the mill stuff as we
| have the machine measure the stock with an electronic probe.
| The machines also have 20 pallets, so once the stock is
| loaded, the operator can leave the machine for 20x the cycle
| time of a part. The pallets don't even have to be the same
| product, so we can queue up replacement of inventory with
| just the quantity that a customer ordered and offer a bunch
| of made-to-order parts with reasonable turnaround times.
|
| The machines also monitor spindle vibration so they can tell
| if a tool looses an insert, and the tool-setter is used to
| check if solid tooling is still intact.
|
| The only manual parts are taking raw materials off the
| suppliers truck, unloading finished parts (next on automation
| list), final assembly (working on automation for this),
| occasionally loading new tools as they wear/break and
| fulfillment.
| riskneutral wrote:
| Is this a profitable business?
| extrapickles wrote:
| If you are careful yes. Doing job shop work (making other
| peoples parts) is hard to make a good profit as people
| expect overseas dumping rates.
|
| The real profit comes from making your own products, as
| then you can force competition to also build their own
| factory to compete. By having lean production we can have
| a very large part catalog without having large amounts of
| inventory for low sales velocity parts.
|
| We have at least a hundred variants that may only sell a
| dozen or two $100 parts per year, but they only cost us a
| line in the catalog to maintain the SKU. Since the
| products are for industrial use, most of our customers
| like the fact that we have in some cases been making the
| exact same part for nearly 30 years, which encourages
| them to design our products into theirs as we never
| discontinue products, so they don't have to re-engineer
| theirs (our products in turn get used in machinery that
| might have a 10-100 unit/year global market).
| dwohnitmok wrote:
| Wow! That really does sound closer to what I thought CNC
| meant before I stepped into a machine shop.
|
| That's pretty amazing stuff.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| This rabbit hole goes as deep as your budget allows.
|
| If you're curious, search for Renishaw probes on youtube.
| They make some of the best mainstream tooling in this
| space.
| singularity2001 wrote:
| To turn on the probe, type G65 P9832. The CNC software
| world needs serious disruption / dev UI updates.
| Animats wrote:
| _The machines also monitor spindle vibration so they can
| tell if a tool looses an insert, and the tool-setter is
| used to check if solid tooling is still intact._
|
| That's a key feature. For unattended operation, you must
| have good fault detection. This tends to be an overpriced
| extra cost option on machine tools.
|
| There are a lot of things in industrial automation that
| cost more than they should. Motors with encoders, for
| example.
| ska wrote:
| I don't think actuators are crazy overpriced really. It's
| true that if you are going to bother packaging them you
| are probably using decent-to-good quality everything, but
| that's what you want for non-toy projects anyway. And for
| toy projects if your budget is really tight no big deal
| to set up the encoder yourself on this one-off.
| aj7 wrote:
| That was before "good" machine shops had probes in every
| machine.
| analog31 wrote:
| As I understand it, the economics of machine shops are a bit
| weird because of the financing cost of keeping up with the
| latest equipment. If you have old machines, and not money to
| buy new machines, then you run old machines.
|
| The most modern shops are in extremely high demand,
| expensive, always busy, happy to turn down work. If you can
| design something in a way that lends itself to conventional
| techniques, you can get it into a smaller shop that may have
| some idle capacity, or run on the "tool room" machines in the
| big shop. The big shops always keep a few old machines around
| for tooling and jig work, rework, and one-offs.
|
| The smaller shops are also willing to take work that's not
| 100% detailed, even hand drawings. So you don't necessarily
| even need a CAD operator. "Do things that don't scale."
|
| In kind of an odd analogy, my old high school band mate built
| a recording studio from cast-off obsolete equipment that he
| bought for pennies on the dollar, and it meant that he
| couldn't take the biggest jobs, but he was instantly
| profitable and never in debt. Likewise, I have a very small
| side business that involves some basic metalworking, and I do
| all of it with powered hand tools and jigs that I made from
| plywood and carbide drill bushings. My capital cost was under
| 100 bucks.
| megraf wrote:
| It's all about the tools the shop has. Sapphire probes (edge
| finders) aid in a lot of the process. Mastercam allows you to
| simulate the machine process (and you can usually simulate it
| completely). Every shop is different - the shop I'm at here
| has a few lathes, robo-drills, 5th axis, and a few older
| pieces of hardware (which still are able to receive G-Code).
| dwohnitmok wrote:
| I was definitely using edge finders (it seems like
| machining in general would be way way way more work without
| edge finders) and occasionally Mastercam.
|
| Definitely never used a 5-axis mill or robodrill though.
|
| I guess my main point of comparison was to laser cutters,
| which really were basically push button automatable in
| comparison.
|
| Granted the problem is a _lot_ easier (purely 2-D cuts) and
| the cutter loses a lot of precision for thick material, but
| any time I got to use a laser cutter I was blown away by
| easy everything is and kept wondering whether a similar
| process could ultimately take root for machining.
| jononor wrote:
| The forces involved in CNC machining is a large
| complicating factor, compared to laser (or 3d-printing).
| In a laser one can just throw the material onto the bed,
| and the results will be fine - not so on a CNC. And that
| one is quite inherent to the paradigm.
|
| Other aspects could likely be simplified and automated to
| a larger degree than today. In many areas solutions
| exists, but are quite high budget - things like tool
| changers, material loading and unloading.
| phkahler wrote:
| Machining can be simpler if you've got a couple precision
| features that can be clamped to with hard fixturing. It's
| all about positioning the workpiece accurately so the
| fixed g-code program can do its thing.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| > I had always had in my mind that with CNC machines you just
| stick the metal in the vise, load the program, hit start, and
| you're good to go, but there's manual calibration, facing off
| and the like that needs to be done before every run.
|
| Much of it depends on the volume.
|
| If you're building a million of something, the up-front cost
| to automate every step of the way makes sense.
|
| If you're only building 10 of something once every few
| months, paying someone to do the manual operations 10 times
| makes more sense than investing in all of the fixturing,
| programming, and other tasks.
|
| Really though, a lot of smaller machine shops have older CNC
| machines that are paid for and otherwise sitting idle. Hiring
| someone for $60/hr to do all the manual steps can keep that
| machine profitable.
| hef19898 wrote:
| My first CNC experience was with a (C)NC machine from the 70s.
| I loved it at times. It was really amazing to see the machine
| shops being upgraded. The elvel of automation, already back in
| 201/12 (last time I had any close contact with these things) is
| amazing.
|
| The concept of "Hauptzeitparllele Tatigkeit" (stuff operators
| can do when the machine is doing its thing, one of the things
| German just describes so well) stuck with me ever since.
| samdung wrote:
| Hand me the wrench ... oh wait.
| OldHand2018 wrote:
| > Those skills need to either be brought in or be taught and as
| soon as a person has those skills we are back at having a skilled
| person doing a large amount of unskilled work.
|
| I'm completely in awe of this attitude. Are you located in the
| USA? I know a bunch of people in small part manufacturing (mostly
| metal and plastic) that are turning away work on a daily basis.
| There is so much demand in the USA right now that any worker with
| the skill to increase production rates is like gold.
| musingsole wrote:
| I think you misunderstand the authors point. There's unskilled
| aspects of a job that seem like an allocation waste to have
| skilled labor handle. But to properly account for some costly
| errors and such, an unskilled worker has to be trained...making
| them a skilled worker that should be able to better allocate
| their time elsewhere than the unskilled tasks.
| OldHand2018 wrote:
| Based on the people I know, paying someone skilled wages to
| do an unskilled job is more than worth it right now.
|
| One of the shops I know of is making small little pieces of
| aluminum in the central US and shipping them to Foxconn in
| China for assembly into computers. As fast as they can make
| them, which is constrained by the number of people they can
| get on the floor. 2020 was their best year ever, by a wide
| margin. Things are seriously crazy right now. If you're
| wondering why, the answer is most likely tariffs. The more
| American value in the product, the lower the tariff once you
| import the computer. Nobody knows if Biden will continue
| this.
| mchusma wrote:
| This is cool stuff. I don't know the state of the art here, but
| it seems like making progress on remote factory operations would
| dramatically speed up our ability to industrialize space.
| paddy_m wrote:
| If you're interested in machining, check out the Business of
| Machining podcast. https://businessofmachining.libsyn.com/ Every
| week John Saunders of NYCCNC talks about his business with John
| Grimsmo of Grimsmo knives (they make $1000 pocket knives on cnc
| machines). It is an excellent podcast about machining and
| business.
| xupybd wrote:
| I work with large scale flat pack furniture manufacturing.
| Unattended machining is possible and not uncommon. You have a
| large tool changer on the CNC, an auto loader to get material on
| the CNC, and then a stock warehousing robot to fetch the
| material. You just talk to one of the large equipment
| manufacturers and they'll sell you this sort of setup.
|
| This seems like a strange problem to try and solve. As a former
| software developer I see problems every day that AI or advanced
| expert systems could solve I'd love to chat with these guys. If
| they solved some of the problems with QC or Packing the industry
| would be clawing at their doors to buy their products. Not to
| mention the outdated state of most CAM / nesting packages.
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