[HN Gopher] Airbnb will build a new tech hub in Atlanta
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Airbnb will build a new tech hub in Atlanta
Author : 7d7n
Score : 97 points
Date : 2021-02-18 16:23 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.protocol.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.protocol.com)
| alexashka wrote:
| I don't pretend to be an expert, but what 'tech' is there to
| AirBNB exactly? A SQL database setup and UI CRUD layers for every
| popular platform?
|
| Why does this company even need a hub? It could use some extra
| lobbying power I'm sure, given that it's entire business model is
| dependent upon them remaining a de-facto monopoly.
| foobiekr wrote:
| Literally every post about one of these companies has a comment
| like this. The issue for companies like AirBNB is not that
| their application is necessarily bafflingly complex (though it
| is absolutely true that, especially during the nosql era,
| amazingly baroque and bizarre architectures had a heyday) but
| that operating reliably at scale is hard, requires good
| decisionmaking on multiple dimensions, and requires attention
| to things that "just CRUD app" doesn't capture because none of
| them actually matter at low scale.
| deeeeplearning wrote:
| The same could be said about flowers.com, macys.com, or
| literally any company doing business on the internet. Scale
| is basically a solved problem so pretending that AirBnb is a
| "Tech Company" or that they have any interesting tech is
| incredibly naive.
| filoleg wrote:
| Once macys.com gets a page with all the tech they open-
| sourced that is actually used at a ton of places outside of
| the company, similar to that of Airbnb[0], then we can
| talk.
|
| Out of the ones I personally worked with, Enzyme[1] is
| pretty much the de-facto industry standard for writing
| React unit tests. Airflow[2] is used very commonly (our
| team at a big known non-tech company used it about 5 years
| ago), and so is Lottie[3]. And these are just the ones off
| the top of my head, given that I actually got to use those.
| They have many many more that seem to have a pretty high
| usage. And their tech blog is very insightful, I learned
| quite a bit from it myself when it comes to my development
| skills.
|
| And no, I neither was nor currently am employed by Airbnb,
| not a big user of theirs, not paid to say any of this, and
| I have no particular liking towards them at all.
|
| 0. https://airbnb.io/projects/
|
| 1. https://airbnb.io/projects/enzyme/
|
| 2. https://airbnb.io/projects/airflow/
|
| 3. https://airbnb.io/projects/lottie-android/
| foobiekr wrote:
| Scale is not a solved problem at all.
|
| And yes, the came could be said for other, less sexy
| companies.
| dclusin wrote:
| Don't forget a batch job framework such as airflow.
| dmode wrote:
| Does a simple CRUD app process $50bn in transaction across 100
| countries ?
| cletus wrote:
| I think a couple of good things may come out of the pandemic:
|
| 1. Big companies being more amenable to remote work. I don't see
| a total shift to remote to be likely or even desirable but a
| partial shift is good; and
|
| 2. An end to the ultimately unsustainable ultra-concentration of
| tech jobs in places like SF and NYC.
|
| I see the likely winners here are Atlanta, Denver/Boulder,
| Dallas/Forth Worth, Austin and Tampa. This may well trickle-down
| to mid-sized regional centers too. Think Boise, Salt Lake City,
| Louisville, Nashville, Memphis, etc.
|
| I support this decentralization.
| franze wrote:
| Q: But many Airbnb Engineers do you need to fix Airbnbs horrible
| website?
|
| A: Lets make a techhub in Atlanta to evaluate this question.
| jerzyt wrote:
| I did a project in Atlanta which required my presence on-site, so
| every week a flight to and back. I've spent enough time working
| there that I had to pay Georgia state tax. Anyway, I consider
| Atlanta to have one of the worst airports in US. Pathologically
| long lines through security, even with the rapid pass.
|
| Maybe it won't be a problem in the Covid era, with zoom calls
| everywhere, but in the pre-Covid era Atlanta was a PITA for
| travel.
| sudosteph wrote:
| I'm happy for Atlanta - it's about time they got some recognition
| for the growth that's happening there. However, as someone who
| started her tech career working at satellite offices for west
| coast tech companies (in RTP, NC) before moving to Seattle -
| there's just no comparison to the career opportunity that comes
| from working at a HQ (or even just in the same timezone as the
| HQ!). I'm back in NC, which isn't so bad now that I've "leveled
| up" my resume with FAANG experience and have plenty of remote
| work skills - but I still recommend that ambitious engineers from
| the south spend at least a few years in a west coast tech hub.
| It's possible that NYC works too now, but I'm not sure.
|
| Regardless, this is a smart move for airbnb. I have no doubt
| they'll get great talented engineers, lower costs, and be able to
| brag about their diversity numbers compared to other west coast
| companies as a result. But until there is real startup investment
| in the south, I'm not optimistic that we'll see anything special
| come from this trend. That said, if I'm wrong and this means more
| tech investment in Atlanta for startups too - I'd be incredibly
| happy.
| conjecTech wrote:
| Woo boy, I see a lot of people throwing shade at Atlanta here.
| That's not exactly a new phenomenon. As a native ATLien, let me
| quote one of our prophets:
|
| The south got something to say.
| daveevad wrote:
| I too am tired of those close-minded folks.
| Shivetya wrote:
| First Microsoft and not Airbnb.
|
| As if our traffic didn't qualify us as the LA of the East.
|
| Seriously though, metropolitan Atlanta is a great area to live
| with three major interstates going through the city and a very
| well developer surrounding area. With many businesses adopting
| more lenient WFH policies the drive is not always a concern.
| Schools are generally a good mix of public and private as with
| any area.
|
| https://blogs.microsoft.com/blog/2021/02/11/investing-to-gro...
| avolcano wrote:
| The traffic is really fucking bad, to be honest - I've been
| considering moving back to metro Atlanta post-pandemic (grew up
| in Gwinnett County, currently up in NYC, still go back to visit
| 2x a year) and it's the biggest concern I have with taking a
| local job. It's definitely as bad as LA or Houston (and the
| pure sprawl seems to match the latter). I'd probably try to
| rely on MARTA and that's tricky to do even if you want to.
|
| My sister now lives in Decatur and I've been looking at some of
| the apartments near the MARTA stations there, and they're
| unfortunately mostly exclusively new luxury buildings (which I
| am very lucky to be able to afford on my current salary, but
| maybe not at a local job, or an adjusted-for-relocation remote
| one).
|
| Frustrating how there's so little walkable development around
| the MARTA stations other than Decatur's, and what there is is
| so expensive. Of course, I could deal with a five minute park
| and ride, but it's kinda the principle of the thing.
| switchstance wrote:
| I'm in Decatur too! I grew up in the suburbs, and after
| having lived in the city, there's no way in hell I'm moving
| outside the perimeter. Unless, it's to another state.
|
| I work remotely to avoid any and all traffic.
|
| I'm happy to see larger tech companies planting some roots
| here.
| jseliger wrote:
| Yet residents keep voting down subways:
| https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/long-resistant-metro-
| atl....
| dashundchen wrote:
| The sprawl of most of the Sunbelt cities (Atlanta, Houston,
| Phoenix) seems absolutely unlivable to me. A tiny historic
| core just engulfed by tens of miles of car dependent tract
| housing and strip malls, all strung together by 8 lane
| highways is a nightmare to me. You must have to live in your
| car to get anywhere interesting.
|
| Obviously that doesn't stop people from moving there but I am
| always shocked more walk-able dense development hasn't taken
| root.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| > I am always shocked more dense development hasn't taken
| root.
|
| Because it inevitably butts up against people's desire to
| not live near lower socioeconomic classes who may not be
| able to afford a car centric life. See the prevalence of
| school rankings (proxy for parental wealth) in real estate
| websites.
|
| Older cities or older areas within cities with dense
| construction were grandfathered in, but I doubt we'll see
| another new city like that in the US. The primary way we
| separate us from them is with unwalkable distances.
| johnbrodie wrote:
| I live in Phoenix and had the same worry when moving here.
| I'm in the suburbs, and have a fairly long commute with my
| current job (well, we're still WFH, but it _was_ fairly
| long). Maybe I can shed some light on one way of living in
| such an area.
|
| One key, in my suburb area there's reasonably sized
| community parks all over. Shortly I'll take a 30 minute
| after-lunch walk, at the park that's a few houses down and
| big enough for a 30-minute walking loop.
|
| Commute times CAN be long, but don't have to be. I have no
| idea why motorcycles aren't more used, especially in areas
| where there's no real winter. In CA you can lane split and
| _really_ cut down commute times. Here in AZ motorcyclists
| can't yet split lanes, but we can use the HOV lane. Cuts my
| commute time in half.
|
| Further, Phoenix doesn't have a great downtown area anyway.
| There's plenty of interesting restaurants and shops spread
| throughout the valley. I just don't have to go "across
| town" very often, so the sprawl isn't that big of a deal.
|
| Lastly, I can be in downtown Scottsdale in 30 minutes if I
| want, but I can also be in alone in nature, with likely no
| one around me for miles, in about 45.
| filoleg wrote:
| > I have no idea why motorcycles aren't more used,
| especially in areas where there's no real winter.
|
| As a motorcycle rider myself, I think you simply don't
| understand how bad it gets in ATL (both during summer and
| winter).
|
| I currently live in Seattle, and it rains quite often,
| but it is just a drizzle most of the time, and I can
| still ride quite comfortably. Summer is a bit too hot at
| times, but nothing wild. Winters are fine too, aside from
| those very rare snow days.
|
| Before moving to Seattle, I used to live in ATL, and I
| can tell you I would never ride a motorcycle there for
| multiple reasons.
|
| 1. It doesn't rain as often in ATL as it does in Seattle,
| but when it does, it comes out of nowhere and it pours
| buckets. Impossible to ride, even driving a car feels
| extremely risky with those rains.
|
| 2. Winters in ATL tend to be colder than in Seattle a lot
| of times (not averaged out, but on a day-to-day basis;
| e.g., one day in January you wear a winter coat, a week
| after you wear shorts and a tshirt, and another week
| later you are back to your winter coat), and summers are
| always much much hotter and much more humid. Weather
| swings much stronger in both directions. Humidity is a
| total killer. Riding in ATL during summer is pretty much
| impossible, unless you invest into cooling solutions
| (like cooling vests and such, which barely work for
| longer than 20 minutes at a time, as I found out from my
| own experience). You mention Phoenix, but the crucial
| difference is that air in Phoenix is very dry, which is
| much better for riding (or being outside in general). I
| witnessed 95F+ temps in Seattle (which also has dry air)
| a few times, and didn't even blink an eye and was able to
| stay comfortably outside. In ATL, I couldn't stand being
| outside even for a few mins once the temps climbed above
| 75F. Overall, I would say ATL has way way less rideable
| days than Seattle, and that's despite the Seattle rain.
|
| 3. Last, but not the least, drivers. While this isn't the
| main factor in my decision to never ride in ATL, it could
| be for a lot of people. Drivers are very aggressive, with
| many coming from very rural or suburban GA, driving giant
| trucks and having some animosity towards motorcycle
| riders specifically. I am not joking about the last one,
| I legitimately heard multiple people claim they wished it
| was legal to hit motorcycle riders on the road. But
| again, this point is just a minor one for me, as it is
| much more subjective than the first two and can be just
| written off as my personal experience aka anecdata.
|
| With that in mind, I just want to say that this is not my
| critique of ATL as a city overall, just when it comes to
| riding a motorcycle there. If ATL manages to get the
| career opportunities for devs going with all those tech
| companies opening big offices there, and it all succeeds,
| I would consider moving back, despite the weather. ATL
| has quite a lot of things worthy of praise and
| appreciation that I miss while living in Seattle.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| You've just described Silicon Valley outside of San
| Francisco proper.
| burnthrow wrote:
| "Pay no attention to the second densest city in the
| country over there."
| dimmke wrote:
| The key is don't live in a suburb. There are plenty of
| neighborhoods in Atlanta proper that you can buy into that
| will allow you to get anywhere else in the city in 20
| minutes, give or take.
| treis wrote:
| The solution is to be rich enough to live in the tiny
| historic core. Those are plenty walkable.
|
| The flip side to that is sprawl is cheap living. SF doesn't
| sprawl but that means you can't afford a house unless
| you're rich.
| clairity wrote:
| from my limited experience of atlanta and houston, both seem
| worse traffic-wise than LA (which i know well). their traffic
| seems to be bad nearly everywhere, whereas traffic in LA has
| lots of hotspots, mostly in wealthy areas (coast and hills),
| where the demand for (sparse) housing has equilibriated
| poorly with insatiable demand for roads and parking. in the
| denser parts of LA, public transit and more walkable
| neighborhoods have kept traffic somewhat in check (bad maybe
| at rush hour, but not all the time).
| matthewmcg wrote:
| It's getting better, but you do have to pay for what you get.
| MARTA is partnering with developers to build housing in some
| of the underused parking lots around intown stations. They've
| done this at Edgewood/Candler Park (10 minutes to Downtown,
| 20 to Midtown) and just announced a project for the King
| Memorial Station (5 minutes to Downtown, 15 to Midtown).
|
| Also, unlike many transit systems, MARTA lets you bring a
| bike on busses and trains, so you can extend your effective
| transit range a bit if you are able to bike.
| dpflan wrote:
| Agree on your points, tech WFH/remote policies should benefit a
| city (especially more car-centric like Atlanta). If they can
| prioritize proximity to public transit, mainly rail or core bus
| route, that really helps, but if not, could also be a reason to
| make investment in transit to that area.
|
| P.S.: typo? "...and not Airbnb" --> "...and now Airbnb" :)
| robbyking wrote:
| > As if our traffic didn't qualify us as the LA of the East.
|
| I lived in Athens, GA for almost a decade, and when my wife and
| decided to move to a bigger city, this was a major factor in us
| deciding not to move to Atlanta. We're really big on biking and
| public transportation, and at the time it didn't feel like
| Atlanta was an option because of this.
|
| That said, I miss Georgia a lot. I don't think people who live
| in other states realize how cool Athens and Atlanta are.
| mym1990 wrote:
| I have recently moved back to Atlanta from SF and missed the
| biking aspect of SF dearly. Atlanta is getting much better
| though, the belt line is connecting many neighborhoods and
| there is lots of development happening for further bike and
| walking paths. One day I hope to ride down Peachtree without
| fearing for my life...one day.
| sudosteph wrote:
| I'm in Asheville, so not that far away, but I've still never
| visited Athens. I've heard great things about the music scene
| though!
|
| When I lived in Seattle, I met a lot of people with very
| distorted views of Southern cities in general. A lot of
| people who have never spent much time (or any time) in the
| south get their whole concept of us from crazy politicians,
| awful hollywood movies, and jim crow. That said - I've met
| tons of southerners that stereotype all Californians unfairly
| negatively as well (they think it's all berkely antifa and LA
| gangs). This is one big reason I really wish we had a
| national program like the one Yang proposed, where high
| schoolers could spend time in different communities across
| the country. Travel is expensive, but there's really no
| substitute for it when it comes to dispelling regional
| prejudices.
| forrestthewoods wrote:
| Hell yeah. Everyone says they care about diversity. But you
| aren't going to build a diverse workforce if all your offices are
| in SF, NYC, London, and Seattle.
|
| I've wanted to see big tech expand into the South for years.
| (Austin doesn't count.) Atlanta and Nashville please.
| oh_sigh wrote:
| If diversity just a euphemism for "non-white", then NYC is as
| diverse as Atlanta - both with about 40% white population and
| 60% non-white. NYC is far more diverse than America as a whole
| - 30% fewer whites, 2x more blacks, and 80% more Latinos, 3x
| more Asians, and 10x more Jews than one would expect from
| America's overall demographics.
| kirktrue wrote:
| The article subheading states: Airbnb needed an
| East Coast home.
|
| Why particularly an _east coast_ home vs. just _another_ home?
| What 's the strategic benefit of the east coast in particular?
| sdljfjafsd wrote:
| Time zones are important if your teams rely on synchronous
| communication (slack, zoom, etc.). My org has gone "remote" but
| we still rely heavily on synchronous communication so we still
| prefer to hire people in the same time zone.
|
| Time zones are also important if you are doing customer or
| client support.
| cheriot wrote:
| Most of the US population is on the coasts and their
| headquarters is on the other one.
| [deleted]
| bitcharmer wrote:
| Airbnb and tech hub in one sentence. Could someone explain to me
| what one has to do with the other?
| pb7 wrote:
| >The new Atlanta hub will eventually house much of the
| company's growing technical and programming work, including a
| product development team.
|
| RTFA.
| randomsearch wrote:
| I would guess the implication might be that Airbnb isn't a
| tech company but an accommodation company?
|
| Is that fair? I don't know. Feels like there's a spectrum.
| Can't see anything Airbnb have done that's technically
| innovative, but rather their main innovation is a very novel
| (and much criticised) business model.
| pb7 wrote:
| It literally doesn't matter what they are. They have
| engineers and they're building an office geared for them.
| They could bake bread as their business but if they build
| an office for the 3 software guys that build their
| marketing website and integrate a 3rd party inventory
| system while the 1,000 bakers work elsewhere, it would be
| their tech hub.
|
| Don't let your hate for Airbnb pick apart every single
| headline.
| jppope wrote:
| +1
| dang wrote:
| " _Please don 't post shallow dismissals, especially of other
| people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something._"
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| jppope wrote:
| Yikes.
|
| So a few years back... my buddy said he was moving to Georgia,
| and my reply was: "which one? One is a war-torn country in the
| middle east and another is a place I would never go to..."
| draw_down wrote:
| Thanks for posting
| dang wrote:
| Please don't take HN threads into regional flamewar. We're
| trying to stay out of hell here.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| rcpt wrote:
| Well ok. Georgia does has some nice things like the start of
| the start of the Appalachian Trail, hostel in the forest, and
| beautiful coastline.
| pylua wrote:
| Good for you. A lot of people enjoy living in Atlanta . If you
| don't like it then don't visit. No need to speak like this .
| pratik661 wrote:
| I grew up in metro Atlanta and studied at Georgia Tech. The state
| government subsidizes college education for grads with a certain
| GPA (HOPE Scholarship). However, I (and most CS grads I knew)
| left Atlanta for better paying jobs in NYC/Bay
| Area/Seattle/Austin. I always wondered why the ATL tech scene was
| 'underdeveloped' compared to comparable sized cities like Seattle
| and Austin, despite having major research institutions (Georgia
| Tech and Emory) to anchor it.
|
| This is what I mean by 'underdeveloped':
|
| - Most software dev job postings (as of May 2018) have SPECIFIC
| tech stack requirements. This to me is a red flag. Most
| recruiters in 'developed' tech cities assume that software
| development skills are transferable and that technology
| stacks/frameworks/languages can be learned.
|
| - The salaries offered were still very low compared to comparable
| COL locations like Austin
|
| - No major FAANG presence to put upward pressure on local
| developer wages
| dominotw wrote:
| > I always wondered why the ATL tech scene was 'underdeveloped'
|
| I lived and worked there for a while there.
|
| * Most of the tech jobs are out in burbs like alpharetta ect.
|
| * City is just not great. There isn't much to do.
|
| * Feels a bit old school and traditional.
|
| * No access to snow for skiing , to the ocean for surfing,
| mountain biking trails are decent but not great.
|
| * Music scene is not good. I don't like to listen to country ,
| rock ect.
|
| * I always feel a little scared to drive outside ATL into GA,
| Alabama. Confederate flags, churches in the gas stations. I've
| heard some stories from my friends. I admit that this might be
| an irrational fear.
| kingnothing wrote:
| Hard disagree on where tech jobs are. If you want to work in
| tech for a Fortune 500 company in a non-tech industry,
| there's plenty in Alpharetta. All of the startups and
| companies that would attract the HN crowd are in Midtown /
| Buckhead though.
|
| ATL is also home to the world's busiest airport. If you like
| to travel, it's a great city. You can fly direct to almost
| anywhere in the world.
| geitir wrote:
| From and still live in Atlanta. There's a good music scene if
| you like electronic actually. Everything else p much true.
| my_usernam3 wrote:
| > Music scene is not good. I don't like to listen to country
| , rock ect.
|
| Clearly you don't listen to rap and hip hop either
| sudosteph wrote:
| Right? That is such a weird point. Atlanta has a lot of
| young people, it's affordable, it's next door to Athens GA
| which punches way above it's weight for music output and
| culture... It's very respectable city from a music
| standpoint. Especially for rap and hip-hop artists, as you
| mentioned.
| fuzzer37 wrote:
| Just the fact that R.E.M came from there is enough for
| me.
| dominotw wrote:
| Yea correct. I am not an american. I like to listen to
| electronic, classical, international 'world' music.
| monocasa wrote:
| The DnB scene in Atlanta is probably the best in the
| nation and far less gross than the UK's. There's some
| great Techno clubs too, but some of the better ones are
| illegal so you have to know someone (this was true pre-
| covid).
|
| There's tons of world music in Atlanta too, since Atlanta
| is one of the primary locations new refugees get sent.
| That's why you can get just about any cuisine on Buford
| Highway.
| mym1990 wrote:
| This seems to be a post about how Atlanta isn't right _for
| you_. The city has plenty to do...multiple sports teams, the
| beltline is ever expanding, lots of parks, an active
| population, the weather is proper for at least 80% of the
| year, the music scene is diverse...the city itself is
| diverse.
|
| If you want to ski, fly to Colorado and ski...if you want to
| be a ski bum, yes...Atlanta is not for you.
|
| And yes, it has its downsides...it is sprawling, public
| transportation is not good, it can get very hot in the
| summer, crime can be high, and generally many of the problems
| that large metro areas deal with.
| dominotw wrote:
| > This seems to be a post about how Atlanta isn't right for
| you.
|
| Yea definetly. I have friends who love living there and are
| raising families there.
| pratik661 wrote:
| Agree with everything except for the music scene. If you are
| into hip hop and rap, its arguably one of the best music
| scenes in the country.
| the_only_law wrote:
| I grew up in the very outer burbs of the Atlanta metro and have
| kinda been stuck bouncing around the south ever since.
|
| Currently I'm in Florida and I've been similarly confused by
| how underdeveloped tech feels here. I mean this is one of the
| biggest states with several metropolitan areas and a large
| economic base, but frankly most of what I've seen as far as
| tech jobs seems mostly underwhelming.
| buttholesurfer wrote:
| As someone who moved to Atlanta after college for a job, there
| are TONS of dev jobs here in the metro. I'm not sure I agree
| with a majority of your statement.
| darth_avocado wrote:
| One thing to add to this list, which gets talked less about is
| : Work Culture and Work Diversity. I work in a major tech firm
| that has offices in Atlanta. To mildly put it, it isn't
| friendly. Bay Area, Seattle, and to a certain extent NY and
| Austin have a certain set of values set in the workplace that
| simply don't exist everywhere. Your race, gender, nationality,
| and plenty of other things can invite an unwelcoming vibe
| towards you. Work life balance are less respected. And the fact
| that at the end of the day we are just human beings working
| with other human beings seems to be lost to many.
| systemvoltage wrote:
| Altanta has issues but the reason why it hasn't become a
| tech-hub is external to these factors. It is basically a
| snowball effect - one major company settles and the rest will
| come. There is a bit of inertia.
|
| What you're alluding to is simply not true. I worked at
| several companies and have several friends in Atlanta area
| that have no such problems. I think you're extending African
| American population density in Atlanta to fit a narrative
| that simply has no backing. In fact, companies in Atlanta
| area are more diverse than Austin or whatever techhub you
| want to name, except SF Bay Area I would say.
| darth_avocado wrote:
| Err, that's not what I meant. Quite the contrary tbh. I
| don't know about the rest of the population, but majority
| of employees in tech offices in Atlanta tend not to be
| African American, so I am not sure if you got my point at
| all.
| jeffy90 wrote:
| I recently moved to the bay area, and I've gotten the vibe
| that work life balance is less respected in the bay area
| compared to where I came from.
| pratik661 wrote:
| I think we might be the same background. What notable
| experiences have you had working in Atlanta? I'm curious
| because I have never worked there professionally, but have
| heard some stories.
| darth_avocado wrote:
| I don;t live in Atlanta. I've just worked in two separate
| companies that have an office in Atlanta. I've worked with
| the people in those offices and my experience so far has
| been, well, not a fun one. Not to say that everyone is bad,
| just like not to say everyone in the bay area is great, but
| the number of difficult situations you get put into, rise
| dramatically when you deal with offices outside the Bay
| Area.
| alfalfasprout wrote:
| I have to agree with the other comment. I found the Bay Area
| to be more hostile and discriminatory than any other work
| environment I've been in. Specifically if you even slightly
| disagree with certain social viewpoints. We may have achieved
| better racial diversity (somewhat) in the Bay but at the
| expense of minimal ideological diversity.
|
| I've even seen firsthand how racism against asians and
| Indians is rampant and often conducted by those that
| supposedly are advocates for minorities.
| ketzo wrote:
| I'm not trying to be that guy, but have you ever worked for
| an extended period of time in the American South?
|
| I had a mentor at a college internship request I be
| transferred to another mentor a couple days after they
| learned I was atheist. The ~50 person software dev org I
| was in was 90% male, 90% white in a >60% Black city.
|
| For context, I'm a tall, straight-passing white dude with a
| slight Southern accent. I'm a guy who has had people tell
| me racist jokes unprompted because they assume they're in
| good company, and _I_ could still see this kinda shit
| around me. Shit 's _unreal_ as a woman or person of color.
|
| This was at a Fortune 50 company with a couple thousand
| IT/engineering employees (and this was <36 months ago).
|
| I get that the Bay Area is not always the progressive
| paradise it pretends to be, but "California == liberal" in
| many non-West-Coast eyes for a reason.
| darth_avocado wrote:
| Yes, racism exists in Bay Area. I doubt any city in America
| can escape that curse, but to what degree matters.
| zapita wrote:
| My experience is that the Bay Area is a big place with a
| variety of employers and work cultures. May I ask what kind
| of social viewpoints you've seen causing a hostile
| workplace for people who disagreed with them?
| runako wrote:
| Atlanta native & (again) resident. Spent years working in
| Austin in the years around the .com boom.
|
| Couple of thoughts:
|
| - the tech startup scene is hurting for risk capital. Seed &
| Series A investors (primarily) come from capital generated at
| prior exits (e.g. Google millionaires seed the next round of
| startups, etc.). Atlanta has had some big exits, but not the
| kind that mint 100s of young millionaires. By contrast, Seattle
| has had two mega tech exits. Austin had Dell and a few .com
| hits as accelerants (and their money has had decades to spawn
| more companies). There are some exciting Atlanta startups that
| may exit to create the seeds for the next generation of
| companies.
|
| (Honestly, the aspiring early-stage VCs could do a lot worse
| than backing companies in the Atlanta area now. Less
| competition to get in on deals, equity likely cheaper, and the
| pandemic means that later-stage investors are considering doing
| deals outside of northern California.)
|
| > Most software dev job postings (as of May 2018) have SPECIFIC
| tech stack requirements.
|
| Likely an artifact of the diversified economy here. The non-
| tech Fortune 500s HQ'd in the area hire a lot of tech people.
| That's going to skew how recruiters operate. For the most part,
| this is not a factor in the tech metros. Also, I would push
| back on the premise in general. I have not seen very many job
| postings of the form "backend dev needed, any stack and
| database experience are okay." That would seem to be the
| outlier.
|
| > The salaries offered were still very low compared to
| comparable COL locations like Austin
|
| Austin is notably more expensive than Atlanta.
|
| > No major FAANG presence to put upward pressure on local
| developer wages
|
| Obviously TFA is about adding new tech presence to the area.
| But Microsoft building its East Coast HQ in Atlanta is also a
| big deal. Anecdotally, I have also seen compensation inflation
| among F500 companies in the area.
|
| Things are changing.
| rjbwork wrote:
| Just out of curiosity, as an Atlanta based dev, what kinds of
| salaries are common in Austin at various levels?
| pratik661 wrote:
| I hope I don't open a major can of worms by my parent
| comment. This is based on a sample of my own personal
| experience of 1 Austin interview and LOTs of Atlanta
| interviews. As a SDE with 4 YOE, I was offered $110k ish in
| Austin vs barely scraping 90-100k in Atlanta. I ended up
| taking an offer in NYC (which was my top choice to begin
| with).
| nzt48 wrote:
| Out of all of the new-grad GT students I know, the minimum
| they were offered was 83k in Atlanta.
| dimmke wrote:
| I live in Atlanta. I get a lot of recruiters pitching me
| senior SWE jobs from mediocre companies with salary ranges
| between 115k-130k. I think 130-150 is average for senior
| roles.
|
| That's definitely lower than other markets, but Atlanta is
| a much cheaper place to live than most other big cities.
| Housing is definitely catching up though. The only thing I
| will say about Atlanta, it gets HUMID for large swathes of
| the year. The climate is really unpleasant if you're prone
| to sweating and enjoy being outdoors.
| SOLAR_FIELDS wrote:
| levels.fyi is a good resource. Those are typically Bay Area
| salaries so a good rule of thumb is to take the numbers
| reported there and knock off 10-20% for Austin.
| PNWChris wrote:
| I recently got a new job in a Midwestern city and made
| extensive use of levels.fyi (and Blind) during the process.
| It helps a ton with setting expectations and understanding
| what wages and equity to aim for (or a bit above even).
|
| There's a feature on the site where you can click a given
| level for a given company, and filter the individual offer
| data to a given metro/city. It's super useful, even if a
| bit more labor intensive than being able to use the top-of-
| the-fold summary stats.
|
| Edit: the link to click is "filter locations", it's on the
| top right after clicking/opening a given level's info card.
| aeoleonn wrote:
| I'd say knock off more considerably than 10-20%, at least
| compared to this cost of living calculator:
|
| https://www.nerdwallet.com/cost-of-living-
| calculator/compare...
|
| $150k in Austin equates to $236k in Seattle (knock off 35%)
|
| $150k in Austin equates to $296k in SF Bay (knock off 50%)
| pivoter wrote:
| Cost of living calculations are silly. Nobody earning
| 236k in seattle is spending their entire paycheck on cost
| of living. Tell me, does a share of Tesla cost more in
| Seattle than Austin?
| andrewzah wrote:
| $236k in Columbia, South Carolina is vastly different
| than $236k in Seattle. Cost of living calculations are
| not only not silly, they're essential.
|
| Stock market shares are the same, but things like gas
| prices, groceries, utilities, and rent are vastly
| different.
| echelon wrote:
| I live in Atlanta and grew up in the area. This is my 2021
| total comp from workday:
|
| $160k base
|
| $380k equity
|
| $540k total comp
|
| I've been highly compensated in Atlanta for nearly my entire
| career, except the year when I worked out of ATDC.
|
| edit: I misread that you were looking for Austin figures, not
| Atlanta. I still think this is valuable for the ATLiens here.
| We've had tech companies here for over a decade - you just
| have to know.
| jseliger wrote:
| California has a huge advantage in the form of no non-competes:
| https://www.vox.com/new-money/2017/2/13/14580874/google-
| self..., NYC has a huge advantage in the form of the subway and
| sheer size, and so on. It's surprising to me that more states
| don't outright ban noncompetes and build out subway networks,
| but they don't.
| forgotmysn wrote:
| that article is outdated. non-compete clauses are
| unenforceable in california now
| mlinksva wrote:
| DC's non-compete ban should go into effect later this year
| https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/d-c-mayor-signs-bill-to-
| ba... and they have a subway network. Will be really
| interesting to see what affect this has (though of course
| it'll be difficult to tease out).
|
| It's possible most non-competes will be banned nationally
| (US), see https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law-week/biden-
| can-free-mil... and https://joebiden.com/empowerworkers/#:~:t
| ext=Eliminate%20non...
| foobiekr wrote:
| One problem is the dc metro tech industry is, on the
| balance, in Virginia, some in DC proper and a small amount
| of non-Federal in Maryland (less probably due to the
| taxation in MD).
| wil421 wrote:
| I am not a lawyer but reside in Georgia.
|
| It's doubtful Software Engineers are covered by non-competes
| in Georgia. You could use one for sales people and possibly
| an ex-founder or executive.
| monocasa wrote:
| GA modified their constitution in 2011 in order to make non
| competes broadly applicable and enforceable. Software
| engineers probably fall under their "company professionals"
| category that allows for non-competes. They also removed
| time limits on the non-compete; non-competes can be valid
| for as long as the trade secrets you were exposed to are
| still trade secrets (so can be forever).
| nkozyra wrote:
| You could say this of most metros. The most glaring is Boston,
| which is an international hub for tech education but isn't
| really competitive with the cities you list, at least relative
| to its educational reputation.
|
| When I think of NYC, SF, Austin, Seattle, I think of cities
| with robust arts/culture/dining/entertainment, accessibility
| (public transit) and enough professional basis to allow job
| mobility. These things entice younger people to congregate.
|
| There are other metros that have great education and in
| particular tech education (Raleigh/Durham, Pittsburgh, Chicago)
| but don't tend to build up tech industries.
| meddlepal wrote:
| Bostons a life sciences hub and basically the only game in
| town for serious bioengineering. Different ballgame compared
| to the kind of tech that gets talked about on HN usually
| which is basically B2B or B2C SaaS.
| finiteseries wrote:
| Austin doesn't fill a single one of those criteria for what
| it's worth.
|
| I have _never_ lived somewhere with less public
| transportation, art & culture, dining, and entertainment
| options than Austin, Texas.
|
| And I've spent my entire life in the American south. Houston
| for example of all places, does twice as much on all of those
| qualities!
| nkozyra wrote:
| > art & culture, dining, and entertainment options than
| Austin, Texas.
|
| Buh? I was there less than 2 years but this is a baffling
| statement to me.
|
| edit: except public transportation point.
| pbar wrote:
| It's always surprising to folks, but true, that Houston has
| a wealth of arts/culture/dining, and even a modicum of
| public transit (the metro rail, heh). Entertainment could
| be better, but the rest blow Austin out of the water!
| cwdegidio wrote:
| As a transplant to Houston, I will never understand why
| Austin became a tech center and Houston has not. There is
| a lot of raw tech talent here, incubators, etc. No matter
| what policies are in place or what investments are made,
| it never seems to take hold.
| nilkn wrote:
| As someone who's spent time in both Austin and Houston,
| I'd agree with the sentiment that Houston is pretty
| objectively a much better place to live. These phenomena
| are probably more driven by superficial appearances,
| though, and that's where Austin has always had an edge.
| It's hilly, it's perceived as a college town, and on the
| surface it has a lot of access to nature. It looks better
| on the surface than Houston to an observer who hasn't
| lived in both places. Really, it's just like the Bay Area
| -- it looks good, but it actually is a very rough and
| empty place to live for most folks.
| aeoleonn wrote:
| I'm leaving Austin for the West Coast.
|
| Not enough outdoor activities here. The amount of hiking
| trails is great for Texas. But not at the national scale or
| when compared to the West Coast & northern Rockies.
|
| Texas is mostly private land, so there just aren't any
| greenbelts (that I know of, within 2 hours of Austin) where
| you can hike for 10-40 miles one way.
|
| I'm strongly leaning towards Washington for that reason--
| Huge "parks" (more like "wilderness zones") for hiking, as
| well as ocean kayaking, ocean sailing, and ocean fishing.
|
| It's a cheap flight to Alaska from there. And WA is the
| only contiguous west coast state without state income tax.
| jupiter90000 wrote:
| Washington has a ton of cool outdoors stuff. Just be
| ready to have maybe max a couple months of great weather
| per year to enjoy it (unless you don't mind overcast and
| drizzle, or forest fire smoke in summer). Also competing
| with the other 4+ million people in Seattle metro to get
| it in out there. Amazing diversity of things to do
| though.
| aeoleonn wrote:
| Great point. I suppose it depends on the location-- west
| of the mountains, in the mountains, or east of the
| mountains.
|
| With remote work, and an off-grid equipped van, I imagine
| someone who works from a computer can explore a large
| swath of the state, and nearby states, to find the right
| mix of weather and activities.
|
| That said, they'd still likely be based in the Seattle
| area, and would largely remain subject to its weather
| conditions.
| subsubzero wrote:
| I flew to Austin back in 2013, spent a week looking at
| places and checking out hiking areas and running. I loved
| the food/friendly people but that was about all. For me
| it was a dealbreaker on lack of trails/wilderness, and
| also the very high humidity there. In addition housing
| was expensive as I looked at a few condos and they were
| roughly the same cost as the one I used to own in San
| Jose.
|
| WA seems very nice, the no state tax thing basically
| means a free mortgage payment if you are making good
| money in tech(not paying CA taxes)
| pratik661 wrote:
| Thats a really good point. Boston, Chicago, and Pittsburg
| meet the research university criteria. Perhaps a tech center
| needs temperate weather (hard to convince a new grad to move
| to Pittsburg vs moving to Austin of Bay Area)? In that case,
| Atlanta has the weather going for it.
| Hydraulix989 wrote:
| Pittsburgh has an -h at the end.
| burnthrow wrote:
| Boston is a major tech hub.
| meddlepal wrote:
| I mentioned this in a different comment. Its a major tech
| hub, but not in a way that would be apparent to your
| average HN software dev. Boston/Cambridge is THE
| bioengineering hub of the US.
| ghaff wrote:
| Yeah. SV gets defined mostly as the hub for the sort of
| tech that it's the hub for. Which is more than a bit
| self-referential.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| To be fair, SV is also a biotech hub.
| ryanchants wrote:
| As a developer in Chicago, I think it's because the finance
| sector sucks up a lot of the talent, and it's less known
| for marquee non-finance companies. The city has struggled
| to promote our tech scene.
|
| The company I work for participates in UIUC's City Scholars
| program[0]. If you work for a company in Chicago, push for
| them to participate. It introduces the students to
| Chicago's tech scene.
|
| 0: https://cityscholars.engineering.illinois.edu/
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| To add to your point, I was made aware of a tech role at
| a financial firm in downtown Chicago (dev, infra, and
| infosec experience required); $300k-$400k total comp.
| Can't compete against that if you're in Chicago and only
| sourcing Chicago talent.
| selectodude wrote:
| Citadel is basically a vacuum cleaner for top-end talent.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| The humidity knocks it down a few notches though, in my
| opinion.
| ghaff wrote:
| I hate weather in the southeast generally. I'll take a
| northern city hands down.
| majormajor wrote:
| Austin and Seattle are not NYC or SF, and I'm having a hard
| time seeing how either of them would beat Atlanta for any of
| those things you mention (I guess they ALL suck at public
| transit, but I don't see how Seattle sucks less... Austin
| sucks more!), except they have more first-class tech
| companies as an accident of history.
| nkozyra wrote:
| I think we're seeing a trickle down from SF -> NYC ->
| Seattle and now Austin.
|
| I'd expect this to continue under normal conditions.
| Companies diving into a new city and trying to foster these
| conditions in the cheaper costs of a new city. But the
| pandemic really kicked WFH into overdrive and there are
| just so many companies abandoning the scope of physical
| presences.
| cat199 wrote:
| > I always wondered why the ATL tech scene was 'underdeveloped'
| compared to comparable sized cities like Seattle and Austin
|
| No insight on Atlanta or Seattle, but Austin has had tech
| longer than people like to think (IBM/Freescale, UT Austin+TI
| Partnerships, etc), and also got on the 'hype train' early by
| rebranding SXSW from pure music/entertainment into 'SXSW
| Interactive' quite a while back (early 2000s if I'm not
| mistaken), so you have lots of west coast tech/media/vc
| 'influencers' heading there on a yearly basis getting schmoozed
| heavy
| monocasa wrote:
| They neutered HOPE unfortunately. Used to be you needed a 3.0
| high school GPA to qualify, now you need a 3.7 (not counting
| the GPA boosts you get from Honors and AP), and they don't
| cover books or fees anymore, and they upped the in college GPA
| requirements.
|
| It was really unfortunate to see such a blatant money grab.
| gnicholas wrote:
| > _now you need a 3.7 (not counting the GPA boosts you get
| from Honors and AP)_
|
| Does this mean that you're actually better off taking
| unweighted non-honors/AP classes and getting a better grade,
| rather than taking honors/AP classes and getting a less good
| grade?
| Xcelerate wrote:
| I also grew up in metro Atlanta and studied at Georgia Tech and
| was about to post essentially the same comment. All of my
| friends interested in tech at GT went to the Bay Area as soon
| as they could once they graduated. The school itself attracts a
| lot of talent from all around the world, but very few people
| seem to stay in Atlanta once they graduate.
|
| The city recently made a big push to attract talent in the
| entertainment and film industries, which appears to have worked
| pretty well. It would be nice to see them do something similar
| for tech. It's kind of sad that the state subsidized my
| education (and many others) but does not have the incentives in
| place to keep people once they graduate.
|
| Also, the local salaries are a big part of the reason people
| leave. The low cost of living does not make a difference when
| you can _save_ more per year in the Bay Area than an entirely
| yearly salary in Atlanta.
| philsnow wrote:
| I've sometimes wondered about why GA Tech was an early
| adopter of online education (at least for comp sci, I don't
| know if it extended/extends to other programs).
|
| I'm not saying there are any reasons they should not have
| been an early adopter... but Atlanta definitely has its
| charms, and allowing people to get a masters from a top-ten
| program while scarcely ever setting foot on campus seems like
| it could be a disservice to the state.
| dhagz wrote:
| Between this and Microsoft's recent announcement of opening
| an Atlanta office, I think tech is the next sector the city
| wants to attract.
|
| And as someone living in ATL and working at one of the few
| companies to offer competitive salaries for their tech
| positions, this is only upside in my eyes.
| blueblisters wrote:
| I get that Atlanta does not have the tech pull of Bay
| Area/Seattle/Austin, but it feels like a very well-rounded city
| overall, without being too expensive. Midtown is already
| saturated with tech companies and startups because of Georgia
| Tech but there's a lot of stuff happening in other parts of the
| city which give it a very unique character.
| softwaredoug wrote:
| I have wondered if with a flight from Silicon Valley/NYC during
| the pandemic, if there would be an explicit focus on convincing
| people from blue(democrat)-areas to move to political
| flippable/purple(competitive) states like Arizona, Georgia,
| Texas. So when I see "move to Atlanta" it makes me wonder if
| companies, with their progressive employees, might even make this
| an explicit strategy. If anything for long term political
| stability in the US, which helps business...
| jeffbee wrote:
| "flight" from the SF Bay Area radically overstated:
| https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/People-are-leavi...
| rconti wrote:
| Yeah, home transaction values across CA during the pandemic
| are accelerating faster than the nation as a whole.
| kingnothing wrote:
| Large companies want to have offices in large cities. Most
| large cities, Atlanta included, are blue.
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