[HN Gopher] Jacquard by Google
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Jacquard by Google
Author : lgats
Score : 43 points
Date : 2021-02-16 19:27 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (atap.google.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (atap.google.com)
| boh wrote:
| I think the sensors on everything idea is losing its sheen. I
| don't need my shirt tracking my behavior along with everything
| else.
| cwhiz wrote:
| Legitimately, if this was posted on 4/1 I would have commented
| that they did a great job with a non-obvious prank.
|
| I can't believe this is actually real.
| [deleted]
| illumanaughty wrote:
| Cool! Can't wait until this gets shuttered mid-2022.
| jakogut wrote:
| I definitely have an active aversion to integrating Google
| products into my life after being bitten by this several times.
| dang wrote:
| It's time to retire this cliche on HN, not because it's untrue,
| but because it has become a mechanical reflex.
|
| " _Please don 't post shallow dismissals, especially of other
| people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something._"
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| smnrchrds wrote:
| It reminds me of Amazon Dash, so I think you are right.
| abeppu wrote:
| Lots of people are mentioning that this project is old. But
| zooming out from the project, is this part of a division or org
| within google that's kind of ... stale?
|
| https://atap.google.com/
|
| Under the projects section the first thing is jacquard.
|
| The second thing is the soli miniature radar-on-phone thing which
| was on the pixel 4 and cut from the pixel 5.
|
| The third thing is "Spotlight Stories" which looks like a VR
| fiction project. It says "Winner emmy". Maybe I'm not finding the
| right thing but it seems like they were a nominee in 2017 and
| 2018. https://www.emmys.com/bios/google-spotlight-stories
|
| The 'News & Updates' section starts with links that date from
| 2019.
|
| Maybe they're all heads-down on something not yet announced and
| no one looks at the page above so it doesn't matter. But if you
| _do_ look, it seems like a ghost town.
| jonas21 wrote:
| ATAP was headed by Regina Dugan, who left Google for Facebook
| in 2016. It doesn't seem like they've done a whole lot since
| then.
| pyrophane wrote:
| Is there anything new being announced with this? I'm looking at
| the site and trying to figure out why this is being posted right
| now. From what I can tell Jacquard has been around for some time,
| and at least some of these apparel products have as well.
| birdyrooster wrote:
| Are these clothes? What is the product?
| tpmx wrote:
| > What is the product?
|
| It's a cliche by now, but still: It's you.
|
| This is peak Google.
|
| (It's sensors/triggers sewn into clothing, connected to your
| Google identity.)
| vntok wrote:
| More like peak HN.
| tpmx wrote:
| How so?
| throwaway3699 wrote:
| Because it's silly to assume Google's using this for ad
| tracking and surveillance. The number of people in the
| world using this is practically zero. I doubt 99% of
| Google's workforce has ever tried or heard of it. HN has
| a tendency to jump to ridiculous conclusions.
|
| This is probably a project for some engineers to get
| promoted and go and work on more interesting stuff.
| tpmx wrote:
| > Because it's silly to assume Google's using this for ad
| tracking and surveillance. The number of people in the
| world using this is practically zero. I doubt 99% of
| Google's workforce has ever tried or heard of it. HN has
| a tendency to jump to ridiculous conclusions.
|
| Concepts and prototypes are typically created based on
| the company's overall vision. Of course very few people
| will interact with this particular iteration.
|
| Really, do you think anyone here was concerned about how
| many Google employees were "subjected" to this
| internally?
| throwaway3699 wrote:
| To play devils advocate, if this shipped to millions of
| people, what benefit does Google have in terms of
| advertising that wasn't already available in Android?
| That people are wearing clothes?
|
| From an opportunity cost standpoint it just does not make
| sense.
|
| > Really, do you think anyone here was concerned about
| how many Google employees were "subjected" to this
| internally?
|
| Strawman. I'm trying to point out how this is _not_ part
| of some grand vision, but just a hardware research
| project from a lab designed to build out novel concepts
| for their hardware teams. You can 't build a good project
| without a few failures first, so why not release what
| they make along the way?
| tpmx wrote:
| The goal is obvious: to have Google track everything for
| a consumer in the name of convenience.
|
| You haven't replied to my counterpoint on why focusing on
| how many googlers used this prototype is irrelevant.
| throwaway3699 wrote:
| Okay, but you've still not answered, _why_ spend time
| building new hardware when they could just update their
| operating system and get 99% of the data you 're talking
| about, for much much less money? Take away the clothing
| part, and this is literally just a fancy button to
| control music.
| tylerchilds wrote:
| In the trailer with the example in the shoe and playing
| soccer, that's insights a phone couldn't capture. It's
| got an accelerometer and gyroscope, so it can answer the
| question of "what do people do when they aren't on their
| phones"
|
| Maybe it can't differentiate between soccer and ultimate
| frisbee, but even just recognizing active vs sedentary
| lifestyle is valuable information for an advertising
| profile.
| tpmx wrote:
| > Okay, but you've still not answered, why spend time
| building new hardware when they could just update their
| operating system and get 99% of the data you're talking
| about, for much much less money? Take away the clothing
| part, and this is literally just a fancy button to
| control music.
|
| Because the goal is to extend the reach into every nook
| and cranny of our lives. Collect more data to serve more
| ads, better.
|
| Edit: Think of this as step 10 or so, after all of their
| previous device categories. I'm sure we'll be up to at
| least 100 device categories within the next decade.
| imwillofficial wrote:
| So everything google does is rational and they don't
| experiment with new forms of data collection? Your lack
| of critical thinking is concerning.
| imwillofficial wrote:
| "Strawman. I'm trying to point out how this is not part
| of some grand vision, but just a hardware research
| project from a lab designed to build out novel concepts
| for their hardware teams."
|
| I straw man your straw man! Nobody said anything about a
| "grand vision". Merely that this would be used to gather
| data on those who use it. Experiment, or grand design,
| google has shown that more often than not, new technology
| will be used to further serve their customers.
| Advertisers.
| imwillofficial wrote:
| And how does that change the fact that this is a perfect
| example of the hubris that google displays as they flaunt
| their power to invade everyone's lives and make money off
| of them?
| systemvoltage wrote:
| > Jacquard(tm) by Google weaves new digital experiences into the
| things you love, wear, and use every day to give you the power to
| do more and be more.
|
| WTF!? Sounds like the CEO of Google giving the intro to Google
| I/O. If it was Microsoft, it would have the word 'empower'
| instead of power. God I hate this BS lingo, Steve Jobs would fire
| the editors over this crap.
| vntok wrote:
| Why not read before commenting?
| https://atap.google.com/jacquard/technology/
| systemvoltage wrote:
| Why not put wtf this is at the first opportunity in the
| simplest terms?
|
| I have a pet peeve for company marketing people that say "We
| provide products and services to empower customers". Well, no
| shit! It would be insane otherwise.
| vntok wrote:
| > Why not put wtf this is at the first opportunity in the
| simplest terms?
|
| The "Technology" link is literally the third word visible
| on the page, after the Jacquard logo and a "Products" link.
|
| > I have a pet peeve for company marketing people that say
| "We provide products and services to empower customers".
| Well, no shit! It would be insane otherwise.
|
| Companies manufacturing washing machines don't "empower
| customers" in that there aren't many differenciators
| between washing machine brands today. Nor does your average
| company selling toilet paper, that would be insane.
|
| This project however aims to "empower customers" by
| introducing a paradigm change: make your clothes smarter
| (smart fibers woven in the base product) while deciding
| yourself how smart you want them to be (you choose what
| actions to take on what gestures).
|
| Whether it succeeds is another thing entirely of course.
| gremlinsinc wrote:
| > Companies manufacturing washing machines don't "empower
| customers" in that there aren't many differenciators
| between washing machine brands today. Nor does your
| average company selling toilet paper, that would be
| insane.
|
| Might privileged to assume everyone can afford or has
| room for a washing machine, for the people who don't I'm
| sure it definitely would empower them to get more done if
| they could .
|
| Also there's a lot of differentiation, I never knew how
| much better front-loaders were till we owned one.
|
| This reminds me of the "futurism" movement in Italy that
| led to Mussolini's rise where they were so into fashion
| that they didn't know how but they just knew they wanted
| milk-based clothing and had to figure it out, and they
| actually did! It's kind of a cool story, without the
| fascist dictator throwing a wrench into the coolness.
|
| This also seems like it's totally ripped from star trek,
| the insignia on their uniforms do exactly that and Jean
| Luc Picard sounds a lot like Jacquard....
|
| I could see this as a gimmick from Nike, Reebok, or
| someone already in fashion but from Google it seems...
| like some weird B-project team endeavor like Google Glass
| that probably won't go anywhere long-term.
| belinder wrote:
| it looks like it's a remote button that you can configure and
| attach to your clothes, then you can tap it and something on
| your phone happens (like play next song)
| amelius wrote:
| Can I configure it to send the notification to my own servers
| as opposed to Google's?
| vntok wrote:
| Probably not considering the blob talks to Jacquard's app.
| Then again, you are part of an incredibly insignificant
| tiny minority of prospective customers, completely out of
| that project's target market.
|
| All in all, as someone who might want to use this product
| one day, I'd rather Google not spend their project's
| resources on never-buyers like yourself and instead spend
| those adding features and driving cost down for people that
| could be genuinely interested.
| amelius wrote:
| > I'd rather Google not spend their project's resources
| on never-buyers like yourself and instead spend those
| adding features and driving cost down for people that
| could be genuinely interested.
|
| Sure. And drop all open protocols and support only the
| proprietary ones while they're at it?
| vntok wrote:
| Not sure what your point is but in that case I'd rather
| go the obvious third way which is that they would support
| a _subset_ of open protocols instead of all of them.
| dvfjsdhgfv wrote:
| Can you imagine a Google developer suggesting adding that
| feature to the project manager?
| edoceo wrote:
| Hey, it's on the home page: "it's a new Every Thing". Obvious!
| haskellandchill wrote:
| It's almost satire. I got to "Trucker Jacket" and burst out
| laughing.
| dvfjsdhgfv wrote:
| Yeah, these folks live in an alternative universe.
| agnosticmantis wrote:
| I hope a nice side effect of this will be for this to incentivize
| higher quality and more durable clothes, and as a result help
| bring down fast fashion. It doesn't seem like these are
| compatible with cheap disposable clothes/shoes etc.
| cma wrote:
| Can't figure out what it is from the page. An accelerometer clip
| on for your shoes and sleeves? Something woven into some of the
| fabrics in one cutaway image, maybe strain sensors or touch
| sensors?
| osipovas wrote:
| What does it say about Alphabet that I expected to see a: We're
| closing down Project Jacquard. After clicking the link...
| williesleg wrote:
| Yeah just what I need, a Google Jackoff Chip
| dang wrote:
| If curious see also
|
| 2017 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15330556
|
| 2015 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9625641
| Jabbles wrote:
| Note that Project Jacquard was announced by Google in 2015:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ngt0Xg4lLOo
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| ...and will likely be canceled by Google in 2023.
| hwbehrens wrote:
| And the relevant HN discussion:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9625641
| youeseh wrote:
| What problem are they solving?
| trequartista wrote:
| Shoes, Jackets and Bags powered by the technology is cool and
| all, but it doesn't say anywhere whether this is waterproof? Are
| the jackets washable in a washing machine? The gadgets are cool,
| but there are questions about the real world utility of this.
| Judgmentality wrote:
| > Shoes, Jackets and Bags powered by the technology is cool and
| all
|
| Why? What makes them cool? What do they do that normal clothes
| don't?
| Akinato wrote:
| I remember hearing about Jacquard years ago. Given I haven't
| heard or seen any applications of it gaining traction since the
| launch leads me to think it's just going to go into the endless
| cavern of Google Abandonware.
| jakogut wrote:
| What a strange name and marketing scheme. It's unclear what
| they're selling, how to get it, or if I would even want it. I
| increasingly feel out of the loop when it comes to new products
| and services marketed by large corporations.
| tantalor wrote:
| The name has been around since 1804
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacquard_machine
| alunchbox wrote:
| Yep, another data extraction tool. Neat but every day we strive
| closer to Black Mirror.
| gabaix wrote:
| I bought my Jacquard Levi's jacket 2 years ago in SF.
|
| What I really love is the gesture interface. The swipe on the
| sleeve feels natural. Comparatively tapping on AirPods looks more
| awkward. It is especially useful while riding my motorbike.
|
| I found the jacket in the SF Levi's store as I was shopping for a
| jacket. I had no idea that Google made them. I wonder why Google
| doesn't do more to promote the device.
| muglug wrote:
| This is an interesting approach: this device will free you from
| constantly checking all those other devices.
|
| To me this is the selling point of the Apple Watch, and it's hard
| to see what this does that a watch does not.
| LASR wrote:
| They're clearly going for the other end of the spectrum here.
|
| A watch is something that is attached to you, regardless of
| what other clothing/shoes/bags you may have.
|
| This is attached to the clothing/shoes/bags you may have,
| regardless of whether you're in it or not.
|
| The only way this can work out is if the device can be built so
| cheaply that it can be integrated into most items of clothing
| to be ubiquitous (like the anti-theft tags).
|
| The point of a smart watch is that you own one, and so device
| vendors can pack in a ton of tech inside it to make it
| compelling. And since you only need one, they can probably
| price it high, and offer some sort of accessory system to cater
| to different style preferences. The Apple Watch totally nails
| this product.
|
| This product, IMHO, is a disaster from a product perspective,
| not even going into the tech involved.
|
| What do I do if I chose to not wear my blue jean jacket that
| day? No functionality? Maybe I'll cut this little device out of
| the jacket and put it into my coat sleeve. It's basically a
| really terrible smart watch at this point.
| SahAssar wrote:
| > this device will free you from constantly checking all those
| other devices.
|
| How? The only way this device will indicate anything to the
| user is by vibrating, just like your phone (or watch) already
| can do.
| tomerico wrote:
| This is one of the Google projects that I'm surprised still
| exist. The new technology here is integrating touch sensors into
| fabrics. You can see examples on the website of clothing and
| bags.
|
| The main problem is that it's just that - a touch sensor. You
| still need a separate device that will contain all the other
| pieces - processor, battery, IMU, connectivity, etc. Once you
| make that device and wear it - you might as well integrate the
| input mechanism into it, why bother with using the fabric?
|
| Better yet - integrate a screen into it as well, do you don't
| just have an odd, input only device, but you can actually see
| what you are interacting with. Oh wait - at that point you've
| just re-invented the smartwatch.
|
| Can someone enlighten me on what is a killer use case that is
| actually better served with the Jacquard technology?
| pavel_lishin wrote:
| Eh, some of the use cases are kind of neat - being able to
| control certain things without taking that device (likely a
| phone) out of a pocket.
| wyattpeak wrote:
| I already control my phone while in my pocket using my
| headphones. Others do it with their watch. Still others just
| shout at their phones.
|
| I don't think it's impossible that there's an even better
| solution hiding in this product, but it really does seem to
| address a solved problem, to my mind.
| paxys wrote:
| > You still need a separate device that will contain all the
| other pieces - processor, battery, IMU, connectivity, etc
|
| That device already exists - your smartphone
| tomerico wrote:
| If the clothes could somehow tap into your smartphone battery
| and processor that would have at least made the whole thing
| simpler to use. As it stands right now, you need to have a
| separate "tag" that you charge separately and connect to your
| phone wirelessly. At that point you might as well wear a
| smartwatch or similar.
| da_big_ghey wrote:
| Not a great solution, since people often aren't carrying
| cellular phones, but are almost always clothed. I think the
| point is that this can be used at almost any time, compared
| to a phone which someone will often be without?
| pavel_lishin wrote:
| When are they scheduled to discontinue the APIs that make these
| more than paperweights?
| drusepth wrote:
| They are not currently scheduled to discontinue the APIs these
| use.
| antihero wrote:
| So a bunch of items that restrict your fashion choices, are
| horrendously expensive for what they actually give you (mostly
| gimmicks), which will likely be abandoned by Google anyway?
| AirMax98 wrote:
| Hate to be dismissive, but who honestly wants to wear this nerd
| shit? A fashion disaster on par with Google glass. Can't wait til
| my sneakers are part of some botnet.
| imwillofficial wrote:
| I laughed so hard at this
| Doctor_Fegg wrote:
| "allows our partner brands to integrate connectivity and digital
| experiences directly into their products"
|
| It's the Motorola ROKR all over again.
| throwaway556179 wrote:
| The first use case mentions: "effortless selfies" -- call me
| stuck in the past, is that what I need high tech for?
| chrisco255 wrote:
| Seems like they originally announced the Jacquard project 6 or so
| years ago. The idea of weaving electronics into clothing and
| fashion brands is interesting, but I'm not sure how useful it is.
| The product looks like it's evolved into a small bluetooth chip
| that you can slide into either shirt sleeves or backbacks and it
| will sense touches even through the fabric. It's interesting, but
| also fairly niche. The example they show of the woman sliding the
| Jacquard device into the rolled back jean jacket sleeve doesn't
| seem practical though. It just seems like smart watches are a
| better match for this use case of answering calls and performing
| quick tasks.
|
| Note, it says the product can withstand light splashes, but can't
| withstand a wash in a machine. What that means is that these
| devices will get fried on a regular basis...since a device that
| small is easy to forget about as you toss in your laundry.
| jpollock wrote:
| It looks like the sensors/controls are built into the object,
| with the CPU, battery and radio (the more expensive part) being
| movable? So, it attaches to the jacket and exposes some controls,
| it attaches to the backpack and enables some controls. It
| attaches to the shoe and reads sensors?
|
| I guess that means you don't have to plug in your jacket or your
| backpack, and helps to amortize the cost across a wardrobe? Maybe
| it's purely to get the battery close to a wall socket.
| suyash wrote:
| no developer platform for it yet? Seems like it hasn't taken off
| for last 5 years
| serverholic wrote:
| Any bets on when google will discontinue this product?
| [deleted]
| frouge wrote:
| Place your bets: when will Google kill this project?
| dfxm12 wrote:
| I like the idea of wearable computing. I'm not too keen on being
| locked into Google/Levi's/YSL though. The list of abilities [0]
| also leaves a lot to be desired. I'm just not bothered by pulling
| out my phone to change a song or check when my uber is coming.
|
| The gamification of training with adidas and FIFA is the most
| interesting, but this seems like a lot of extra tech to basically
| count reps.
|
| 0 - https://atap.google.com/jacquard/technology/#abilities
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(page generated 2021-02-16 23:00 UTC)