[HN Gopher] Ask HN: Why are e-ink note-taking devices so expensi...
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Ask HN: Why are e-ink note-taking devices so expensive compared to
iPads?
Looking at decent e-ink devices to write notes on, I cannot
understand why they're so expensive. For the price of a remarkable
2, for instance, you could buy an iPad which supports note-taking,
and much more. I know there are some advantages to e-ink displays,
but I don't think that's enough to justify the high price tag on
these readers/note-taking devices. There's also hidden costs
involved, such as buying new tips for the e-ink pencils. Has the
e-ink industry reached a dead-end where patents are impeding
progress, or are there other reasons involved?
Author : behnamoh
Score : 253 points
Date : 2021-02-15 15:11 UTC (7 hours ago)
| pidg wrote:
| I own a reMarkable 2.
|
| There is certainly enough to justify the cost, if you are a
| prolific note-taker.
|
| Conversely, I find it hard to justify the cost of an iPad,
| becuase I already have a phone and several laptops. I can't see a
| situation where a tablet would be more useful to me, so I've
| never bought one.
|
| Turns out different people have different needs, and the e-ink
| note-taking market caters to that. Most people would find an iPad
| more useful, so they're lower cost.
| crooked-v wrote:
| The one thing that's kept me from getting one of those is the
| measly 8 GB storage and not even having an SD card slot.
| mumblemumble wrote:
| It doesn't seem _that_ measly to me. By my estimate, it would
| be enough for my collection of academic papers I 'm saving to
| grow to about 4,000, which, at my current reading rate, gives
| me about 40 years of runway.
|
| It wouldn't be much for a phone or tablet. But phones and
| tablets also need to be able to store apps, photos, videos,
| and audio content.
| pizza234 wrote:
| Very interesting. I did the opposite reasoning - I also do lots
| of note taking, however, I preferred to have a more flexible
| device with OK note taking (in short, a 10" Android tablet),
| rather than narrow device with good note taking.
| abeppu wrote:
| > Turns out different people have different needs, and the
| e-ink note-taking market caters to that.
|
| I have the first generation, and I do enjoy it. However, I
| think a distinction is _how_ one takes notes. For
| brainstorming, and just writing free-form, it's great. However,
| I find it really annoying for taking notes about a doc, for two
| reasons:
|
| - If you need more notes than fit in the margins and whitespace
| of a PDF, are you going to flip between the doc and a separate
| file of notes? What if you want to compare two documents, and
| take notes about the distinct ways two authors discuss the same
| material? The idea that you can't have more than one thing open
| feels immediately limiting.
|
| - If you're several pages into a doc and want to flip back to
| some prior point (and you don't recall the specific page
| number), it's actually pretty awkward.
|
| I feel like these devices are on the cusp of being much more
| satisfying. But at present, either I print out all but one
| thing which I can deal with on the remarkable, or I end up
| looking at a combination of a laptop and the remarkable, and in
| either case, I can't help feeling that an obvious use case was
| not well considered.
| Larrikin wrote:
| My killer use case when I was a student was having a device I
| could take handwritten notes on, watch class videos on, and
| read my textbooks on. I then had one single device with a large
| screen for most of my needs. Trying to read notes on my phone
| was uncomfortable on the train but perfect on the iPad.
|
| The real game changer was when I started taking the iPad to the
| gym and putting it on the elliptical and could do required
| reading or rewatch classes.
|
| There was a positive reinforcement loop of wanting to run a
| certain amount but then also wanting to stay on long enough to
| finish a chapter and then once again figuring I should run just
| a little longer and get ahead in class.
| dorchadas wrote:
| I do this too with my Kindle. I feel odd, but I usually set a
| goal for 30 minutes then if I'm halfway through a chapter or
| something, I'll often just keep going. It's actually been
| kinda helpful at times, though I don't do it on days I run,
| only when I walk/do legs.
| mumblemumble wrote:
| Could you expound a bit on why you think it's more useful?
|
| I am thinking about getting one (or one of a couple other
| similar options), because I think it would be MUCH more
| comfortable for reading and annotating papers, which is my main
| practical use case for an iPad. And if it's at all a decent
| replacement for a paper notebook, that would reduce the number
| of things in my bag.
|
| But I'm also a bit worried that the organizational features
| might be lacking. Specifically, it sounds like there's no
| fulltext search feature, and syncing has to be done through
| their cloud service, which sounds troublesome because I've
| already got a system and encompasses file types and tools that
| ReMarkable doesn't handle.
| codethief wrote:
| I'm in the same boat as you, I'm thinking about getting a
| ReMarkable 2 and am turned off by their cloud service. It
| seems possible to run Syncthing[0], however, so this is
| giving me hope.
|
| [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26145584
| GloriousKoji wrote:
| The remarkable is really good at feeling like pencil and
| paper, which mean it's really good for written notes. The
| epaper display is also nice for reading text in daylight.
|
| The iPad has the Apple Pencil and it's not bad but for
| everything else the iPad is far better. You can annotate a
| pdf and send it somewhere else in different ways. It can take
| a or download a picture and mark it up. With the appstore it
| can handle and convert just about any file type. It also does
| a million other things like web browsing, chatting, videos,
| music and games. For most people that adds up to a more
| objective "useful" score.
|
| But there is a huge charm and advantage for gadgets that are
| highly focused on a single function. For what it's worth I
| still sketch and take notes using a mechanical pencil and
| spiral bounded notebook.
| mumblemumble wrote:
| FWIW, I use a Paperlike screen protector, and have been
| very happy with the writing comfort I get out of it.
|
| If there's one thing I'd absolutely miss with the actual
| writing experience on a ReMarkable, it's colored
| highlighting. I've been using the same color coding system
| for years and years now, and I'd hate to lose it. But it
| might just be worth it to lose the backlight and the glare,
| and gain the ability to do my reading outdoors.
| yobert wrote:
| This is not the normal use case of a remarkable 2, but I have
| found it to be the absolute best childrens toy ever. My 4
| year old spends probably 2 hours a day drawing on it, making
| mazes out of the graph paper templates, drawing beehives on
| the hexagonal templates, doodling on cut-away diagrams of
| space shuttles and pirate ships that I found and imported as
| PDFs from the web.
|
| It feels wonderful for him to use, as opposed to the iPad
| which makes me feel like I'm rotting his brain. After a half
| hour of using the ipad, he's irritable and throws a tantrum
| when it's time to put it away. With the remarkable it's just
| like a pad of paper, but I don't have to worry about him
| getting ink on my bedspread.
| d3ckard wrote:
| Let me help you - iPad is the ultimate content consumption
| device. It's by far my favorite electronic device and by far
| the most used. I work on my computer, I communicate on my
| phone, but I relax on my iPad. Internet browsing, shopping,
| watching shorter videos (or even longer ones when cooking),
| sometimes playing games, reading books.
|
| Thanks for the recommendation for Remarkable 2, considering
| buying one for a while now.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| I have heard of some using the ipad pro as a drawing tablet,
| in which case it competes with e.g. Wacom, whose prices for
| their display-drawing-tablets are on par with ipads.
| girzel wrote:
| My daughter is in art school. She was considering a Wacom
| tablet, then did her research and bought an iPad pro
| instead. She seems thrilled with the choice.
| rtkaratekid wrote:
| I've had the same thoughts about the iPad. Do you know if you
| can use reMarkable as a display screen to draw on for video
| conferencing? If it could I'd probably just buy one now.
| visarga wrote:
| Got mine a week ago. I always take notes and draw mind maps
| while working on a project, so this fits perfectly.
|
| I like the pen and paper sensation, the fact that my
| handwriting is exactly the same as on paper, the ability to
| erase, rewrite, cut and paste.
|
| I don't like the flaky sync but love seeing my drawings as
| PDFs. The LiveView function almost doesn't work but a third
| party app allows me to display the tablet on the desktop for
| Zoom meetings.
|
| Arxiv PDFs are easy to read only if you crop or zoom, which is
| a bit unfortunate. I would have loved integration with Pocket,
| Dropbox, Arxiv and other sources. There's no TTS option, which
| is also unfortunate, because I find TTS doubles my focus when
| reading technical text.
| vmladenov wrote:
| I installed KOReader so I could rotate papers 90 degrees and
| read them without squinting. Would highly recommend
| codethief wrote:
| > I don't like the flaky sync
|
| Probably relevant:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26145584
|
| > Arxiv PDFs are easy to read only if you crop or zoom
|
| Have you tried another PDF reader, like KOReader[0] or
| plato[1]? There's also [2] which looks really interesting for
| cases where you want to save time.
|
| [0]: https://github.com/koreader/koreader
|
| [1]: https://github.com/darvin/plato
|
| [2]: https://github.com/GjjvdBurg/paper2remarkable
| ahnick wrote:
| > The LiveView function almost doesn't work but a third party
| app allows me to display the tablet on the desktop for Zoom
| meetings.
|
| What's the third party app?
| chrismorgan wrote:
| I use https://github.com/bordaigorl/rmview to good effect,
| though it just occasionally stops working and I need to
| restart it to get it going again (I think it's from brief
| USB connection blips, which can happen on the Surface Book
| for reasons I won't go into but which won't apply to almost
| any other hardware).
| pietschy wrote:
| I'm using https://github.com/bordaigorl/rmview. It does
| occasionally need to be restarted to work but other than
| that it's been pretty stable.
| dominotw wrote:
| same. I spent ~500$ on boox air. To me its my most used device
| after my laptop. I use it everyday for hours to save my eyes,
| totally worth $500. I also have an ipad which i never use.
| zwayhowder wrote:
| I have no regrets buying a Boox Note 2. It runs Android so I
| have the Kindle app installed and the Adobe Digital Editions
| reader for my uni books and well anything else I want. The
| only thing I wish it had was MicroSD support.
| tluyben2 wrote:
| Exactly the same as my situation. And given Boox is Android
| makes it really flexible for any kind of reading content.
| zepto wrote:
| > There is certainly enough to justify the cost, if you are a
| prolific note-taker.
|
| Would you mind saying what you find most useful?
|
| I have an aging iPad and would very much like to replace it
| with an a-ink device because I don't like staring at a light
| source.
| adamrmcd wrote:
| I have one as well. For me the killer feature is the ability
| to copy/paste your own handwriting.
|
| I'm on the device 6 of 8 hours in a day, constantly taking
| notes of my meetings and conversations. Frequently I write
| sentences in the wrong order, and have to rearrange them for
| logical/linear understanding.
|
| Sure, you can do that on a Slate or iPad, but neither feel or
| sound like you're writing on real paper.
|
| It is just so satisfying to use.
| luch wrote:
| I also own a reMarkable 2 since last December and the fact it
| is not a light source makes it valuable when you spend almost
| all your waking hours staring at screens.
|
| For me, the most useful trait is that it gathers all my note
| in a "physical" gadget rather than being scattered on several
| laptops/smartphones/notebook.
| spaetzleesser wrote:
| I would take one if i also could use it as replacement for my
| kindle.
| mjcohen wrote:
| If it runs android, you can use the kindle app.
| bloodorange wrote:
| If you are willing to strip the DRM and convert the files to
| epub or PDF, you can read them on the Remarkable 2. I do this
| as I prefer to read on the Remarkable 2 (compared to reading
| on the Kindle). It's just convenient to have all the
| technical material, notes and the leisure reading in one
| place.
| _ph_ wrote:
| I also own a reMarkable 2
|
| Considering how small the company behind it is compared to
| Apple, I was positively surprised how well it is designed and
| made - in some aspects I consider it superior to the iPad.
| Apple can fund a lot or R&D thanks to the volume of iPad sales,
| a small company has much more problems to do so. And probably
| the reMarkable sales numbers are small compared to the iPad. At
| least they were able to bring down prices quite a bit with the
| second generation. To be honest, I wouldn't have paid much more
| than the 400EUR for the device.
| powerapple wrote:
| People buy e-ink devices for a special need, the market is small,
| so the price would be higher. I wish Apple can produce a eink
| device. I bought an Onyx BOOX Nova 3. I bought it mainly for web
| browsing and ebooks. Surprisingly, taking note with it was quite
| pleasant. Although I love it and use it everyday, I really with
| there is a good quality device both on hardware and software
| level as Apple devices.
| aurizon wrote:
| From what I read, it has no advantages in the marketplace -
| except for a high price...
| [deleted]
| brassattax wrote:
| I think e-ink screens would be great for musicians too! A lot of
| musicians are using iPad Pro, but I personally would rather have
| a dual screen e-ink device like this (for better battery life,
| better readability): https://www.gvidomusic.com/ ($1600!!)
|
| First company to build something like this and bring the cost
| down to something a bit more reasonable will get my business.
| donarb wrote:
| Do e-ink tablets even have music-worthy sound capability? Even
| at $1600 Gvido has no speaker!??
| input_sh wrote:
| It's about displaying musical notes that the musicians then
| follow. Your options are either printing a lot or looking at
| a tablet.
| mhh__ wrote:
| Musicians often don't have all that much money though, so
| unless this device cost less than maybe $200 it's a very hard
| sell.
| cannaceo wrote:
| Even the broke musicians I know have thousands to tens of
| thousands of dollars in gear.
| mbreese wrote:
| Remember what the device is replacing though...
|
| Expensive eInk device vs... paper.
|
| Even if it is more convenient, you are still competing with
| the price of paper. iPads at least have multiple functions,
| but a set of eInk screens for music are pretty specialized.
| quijoteuniv wrote:
| thousand in Gear! Not computers/ipads! :)
| _joel wrote:
| The broke musicians I know can barely afford to pay their
| rent.
| wott wrote:
| Both can be true at the same time.
| _joel wrote:
| Having expensive equipment by virtue doesn't mean you
| have captial to buy more expensive equipment. I think my
| definition of being broke must be different to yours, if
| it means you're able to buy an expensive (for what it
| really is, you're paying mainly for IP there) e-ink
| display just for scoring. Especially in an age when the
| usual gigging and live performances have been virtually
| non-existent for a year.
| NeutronStar wrote:
| That's for gear. Not for a paper replacing device. What's
| the cost of paper and pen compared to this?
| zwily wrote:
| I would love a quality eink display to replace my iPad Pro for
| piano music. One reason I haven't tried anything else is it has
| to be rock solid - crashing/locking up/etc during a gig would
| be terrible. The iPad (with a Bluetooth pedal for page turns)
| hasn't let me down yet.
| toyg wrote:
| _> for better battery life, better readability)_
|
| High latency could be an issue though.
| jacklolo wrote:
| The 12 Best Jobs for Dog Lovers
|
| https://bit.ly/MONY23GIFT
| throwaway4485we wrote:
| Throaway to not get sued.
|
| E-ink, the company, holds the patents of the pigment core tech
| that makes _" paper-like"_ displays possible and strongarms the
| display manufacturers and the users of their displays to absolute
| silence. Any research project or startup that comes up with a
| better alternative technology gets bought out or buried by their
| lawyers ASAP.
|
| E-ink don't make the display themselves, they make the e-ink
| film, filled with their patented pigment particles and sell it to
| display manufacturers who package the film in glass and a TFT
| layer and add a driver interface chip, all of which are
| proprietary AF and unless you're the size of Amazon, forget about
| getting any detailed datasheets about how to correctly drive
| their displays to get sharp images.
|
| In my previous company we had to reverse engineer their waveforms
| in order to build usable products even though we were buying
| quite a lot of displays.
|
| With so much control over the IP and the entire supply chain and
| due to the broken nature of the patent system, they're an
| absolute monopoly and have no incentive to lower prices or to
| bring any innovations to the market and are a textbook example of
| what happens to technology when there is zero competition.
|
| So, when you see the high prices of e-paper gadgets, don't blame
| the manufacturers, as they're not price gouging, blame E-ink, as
| their displays make up the bulk of the BOM.
|
| Tough, some of their tech is pretty dope. One day E-ink sent over
| a 32" 1440p prototype panel with 32 shades of B&W to show off. My
| God, was the picture gorgeous and sharp. I would have loved to
| have it as a PC monitor so I tried building an HDMI interface
| controller for it with an FPGA but failed due to a lack of time
| and documentation. Shame, although not a big loss as an estimated
| cost for that was near the five figure ballpark and the current
| consumption was astronomical, sometimes triggering the protection
| of the power supply on certain images.
| JohnJamesRambo wrote:
| It's so silly though, have they done real correct math on how
| much more they would make if everyone used it?
| schnevets wrote:
| My mind immediately went to the most recent episode of NPR's
| Planet Money, where they explored buying rights to one of
| Marvel/Disney's +7,000 characters. Specifically, they tried
| licensing Doorman, an obscure joke of a hero who can teleport
| others.
|
| Although they never said it outright, it sounded like the
| main deterrent is just anyone else making money with an angle
| Disney hadn't explored. It sounds similar to eInk refusing
| millions if it means someone else makes a greater fortune.
| lostcolony wrote:
| Volume doesn't always equate to greater profit. High margin
| luxury goods are a valid business strategy too. I'm sure
| they're doing the thing that their data points to as netting
| them the largest profit.
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| FWIW, I believe this has been debunked. Volume (when there
| is a net margin) _always_ equates to greater profit until
| market saturation. Veblen goods rarely work for niche
| markets but can work for commodity markets (see cars and
| watches for examples).
| weberer wrote:
| Then why are there diamond cartels?
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| You aren't serious right? I mean there is a whole article
| on DeBeers (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/
| 1982/02/have-yo...).
| hakfoo wrote:
| The "luxury goods" strategy is viable in a direct to
| consumer play. But does it still apply at the component
| level? If anything, I'd think there's an aversion to lower
| volume, single-source boutique parts just because of the
| fear of supply chain kinks. Maybe there's some marketing
| case to be made of "you can elevate your product's market
| position with expensive premium components" but that
| argument has a lot of moving parts when you're not the only
| displauy tech on the market.
|
| I wonder if there's a non-margin factor in play. Maybe
| something like:
|
| * They don't want to be in the "support" business, so by
| keeping the product line away from hobbyists/small players,
| they keep their overhead low.
|
| * Their main concern is product secrecy and therefore will
| only deal with firms large enough to take NDAs and licenses
| seriously
|
| * Their manufacturing capacity is finite and not easily
| scaled, so they couldn't actually deliver on a hypothetical
| millions-of-screens-per-year order.
|
| * Some sort of brand protectionism. I see a lot of "we
| could probably hack and rig an E-ink display to do
| something outside its normal sales case" discussion. I
| could imagine a situation where they ended up-- in the eyes
| of end consumers-- responsible for the failings of such
| products. They never said to use their panel as a desktop
| monitor for playing 60fps video, but they can't stop
| someone from trying and then bellyaching about it to the
| world.
|
| Of course, a mandatory-licensing mechanism could help
| escape whatever tarpit they're in.
| helmholtz wrote:
| I've heard this narrative before quite often. My follow up
| question is, is there an end in sight? Is there reason to be
| hopeful that, later this decade for instance, things might get
| better and we might have 27" high PPI e-ink monitors available
| around the same price as a typical LCD?
| varjag wrote:
| Patents expire after 20 years.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| Looking up their patents
| (https://patents.justia.com/assignee/e-ink-
| corporation?page=3...), looks like their earliest patents
| are from 1998, so those should be expired already. That
| said, there's 36 pages of patents that seem related, so I'm
| sure that newly made e-ink technology will be covered by
| the newer patents.
| ianai wrote:
| I wonder if the market based solution is for their IP to
| be bought by someone seeking to make products. And what
| that would cost.
| alisonkisk wrote:
| It would cost the sum of as what it costs now, probably?
|
| There's not much of a market-based solution to a legally
| protected monopoly. The best you can hope for is to
| higher demand at lower price points that makes a lower
| price profitable
| ianai wrote:
| Theory says it should cost some multiple of whatever
| revenue they're making on it y/y now. And it'd be worth
| it if the buyer knew they could grow that revenue
| substantially compared to interest rates.
| m-ee wrote:
| You can also make things tough on competitors by filing a
| new patent that's different enough from the original to
| get approved, but close enough to the original that it
| would be difficult to use the older patent without
| infringing on the new one.
| 8ytecoder wrote:
| Evergreening. US patent system has no provision to ban
| this practice. India, for example, requires the patent to
| be substantially different from the original. It's the
| same trick used by drug manufacturers.
| zerocrates wrote:
| I've never quite gotten the problem with evergreening.
| The story is, a drug company seeing their patent
| expiration come up, makes some small improvement and
| patents that, getting them a new term. So far I'm
| following along.
|
| But the narrative is, this locks out generics somehow.
| The new patent can't cover the subject matter of the old
| patent, as its automatically prior art, so only the
| improvements are covered by the new patent. If the
| "improvements" are so minor as to be irrelevant then I
| don't see how this is a real impediment to a generic. If
| on the other hand there's a _significant_ improvement, it
| seems like that 's really something that _should_ be
| getting patent protection.
|
| I just feel like there's always a step missing in the
| usual simple descriptions of evergreening I see. Is this
| all just tied in with something like doctors writing
| brand-name prescriptions, and the brand name just gets
| these minor pointless "improvements," but enough to
| diverges away from what the generic is so it can't be
| easily substituted?
| toyg wrote:
| It also takes time for manufacturers to design and
| produce. Even if someone had rushed out of the gate in
| 2018, they would probably not have ad products ready for
| a couple of years (and last year there was covid too) -
| and this with the most basic tech, which we know actually
| took significant time to be refined.
|
| I think a more realistic timeframe for usable eInk
| patents is 20 years from the first Kindle release, so
| 2027 or so.
| neltnerb wrote:
| If I recall correctly e-ink took almost a decade to work
| out the very complicated processing required to produce
| displays with good enough quality control.
|
| It was a really hard problem that required totally
| different tooling from a normal display manufacturer so
| I'd absolutely expect that to be a huge source of delays
| in getting set up.
|
| You can't just convert an existing display factory to
| make e-ink displays, so the startup costs are huge and
| the odds are good that you'll take at least a few years
| to work out the quirks. Probably more like 4-6... if you
| get lucky and can figure out what tools to use quickly.
| throwaway287391 wrote:
| > Even if someone had rushed out of the gate in 2018,
| they would probably not have ad products ready for a
| couple of years (and last year there was covid too) - and
| this with the most basic tech, which we know actually
| took significant time to be refined.
|
| Ignorant question: are you not allowed to start
| developing a product, or "planning" to develop a product,
| before a patent it infringes on expires? I see from
| glancing at Wikipedia that with a US patent, "making" the
| item is infringement, but where is the line on that? Is
| it that you literally can't fully make the thing, i.e.
| only get 99% of the way there and you're fine? Or is it
| infringement to have an on-the-record chat with a buddy
| that you're thinking of working on X when the patent for
| X expires? (Responses in the form of LMGTFY are welcome,
| I couldn't quickly figure out how to search for this.)
| dctoedt wrote:
| > _Is it that you literally can 't fully make the thing,
| i.e. only get 99% of the way there and you're fine?_
|
| Lawyer-no-longer-practicing-patent-law here: You have to
| look at each individual, numbered _claim_ (at the end of
| the printed patent). Treat each claim as its own
| infringement checklist, with each term in that claim as a
| checklist item. IF: Every checklist item _in that claim_
| is present in what you 're doing, either literally or, as
| an edge case, by a "substantial equivalent," a term of
| art; THEN: _That claim_ is infringed. (It only takes one
| infringed claim for liability.)
|
| A canonical hypothetical claim is this: "1. A seating
| structure comprising: (a) a generally-horizontal seating
| platform; and (b) at least four legs, of substantially-
| equal length, each affixed, substantially orthogonally,
| to the same side of the seating platform to extend in the
| same general direction relative to the seating platform."
|
| For that hypothetical claim, a tripod-style _three_
| -legged barstool with angled legs wouldn't infringe
| because four legs are required for infringement. (There'd
| probably be an argument whether the angled legs would
| satisfy the "substantially orthogonal" element.)
|
| For the same claim, suppose that you had a conventional
| four-legged chair _with a back._ That chair _would_
| infringe claim 1 because the checklist elements are all
| present; the addition of the back is irrelevant to the
| infringement analysis.
|
| (In chemical- and biological fields, extra elements _can_
| be relevant to infringement analysis, for reasons we won
| 't go into here.)
|
| Another edge case if if you "induce" someone to infringe
| the claim; still another is "contributory infringement,"
| which I won't go into here.
|
| > _Or is it infringement to have an on-the-record chat
| with a buddy that you 're thinking of working on X when
| the patent for X expires?_
|
| No infringement there -- for infringement to exist,
| someone has to actually make, use, sell, offer to sell,
| or import the subject matter of at least one issued claim
| of the patent.
|
| _(Usual disclaimer: I 'm not your lawyer, don't rely on
| this as legal advice about your specific situation, small
| changes in facts can sometimes make a big difference in
| outcome, etc.)_
| m-p-3 wrote:
| Seriously, I hope their patents expire ASAP. They're hampering
| the technological progress of e-paper devices with their iron
| grip on the technology.
| mottosso wrote:
| I can see what you mean but on the other hand; are they
| really, though?
|
| If they hadn't come up with the technology and written the
| patents in the first place, we wouldn't even be here talking
| about it.
| kiba wrote:
| Patent held back the development of 3D printers, and
| accessibility of 3D printing in general for everyone. I now
| see weird and clumsy workaround to avoid patent lawsuits
| for things like conveyor belts as well lack of certain
| commercial goods such as heated chamber.
|
| Just because someone is an innovator doesn't mean they are
| for continual innovations or for the spread of innovations
| or like the idea of people building on their works.
| PurpleFoxy wrote:
| A lot of this stuff would have been invented anyway. We
| still would have had 3D printers without these patent
| holders.
| atrus wrote:
| But what are we talking about though? We're talking about
| how this technology is unavailable for nearly all usage,
| and prohibitively expensive for any actual use. It
| effectively _doesn 't_ exist.
| sunshinerag wrote:
| good answer
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| True, but there should be mandatory tech licensing at least
| so they can't just suffocate progress.
| Grustaf wrote:
| You can come up with technology without patenting it
| though. If there were no patents then presumably companies
| would find other ways to make money from inventions, for
| example by being the best at producing them or improving
| them more frequently.
|
| Consider Linux, a bunch of companies have made bank from
| that.
| tehjoker wrote:
| In all likelihood, they did the initial research with
| public funding or built on such research. Since the 1980s
| academia has been a get rich scheme where the public funds
| research and then the professors go to the private sector
| to make money.
|
| I think the inventors should be rewarded, but it seems
| misguided to do it by making them have to exploit an
| exclusive hold on their invention which blockades progress.
| Why not just give them prize money? You could set objective
| standards whereby a new invention that gets produced over X
| quantity by any party gets Y prize money.
| danaos wrote:
| Have you heard of Clearink? [1] They are using a different
| technology which appears to be superior. One can hope they will
| be reaching market soon.
|
| https://clearinkdisplays.com/
| cosmotic wrote:
| All these product shots look fake and I don't see any
| specifications, just vague claims. I'm curious in what way it
| seems superior.
| danaos wrote:
| They have short response times and higher refresh rates.
| Their online videos show video capable devices.
| codethief wrote:
| I had never heard of Clearink before but, damn, their tech
| does look quite impressive[0]! I would LOVE to see a
| ReMarkable with such a screen!
|
| At @4:08 the company representative says
|
| > Our current schedule is to bring gen-1 productions to the
| market in 2020
|
| Well, I guess I'll be crossing my fingers that it'll happen
| as soon as this pandemic over.
|
| [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjJ2-cdhwMQ
| therein wrote:
| Is that what one would find in those color e-ink HiSense
| phones?
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| No they usually use Kaleido. They don't specify but it
| matches with the poor color saturation and 4096 colors.
|
| Kaleido is a b/w eink panel with a colour LCD overlaid.
|
| There's tech that looks much better like eInk's ACeP (much
| stronger color saturation) but it needs multiple flashing
| refreshes to update so it's not feasible for interactive
| devices. They're just being marketed for advertising and
| the like.
| RantyDave wrote:
| I've done a little work with e-ink displays. My God, is that
| stuff a pain in the arse or what.
| xxr wrote:
| >the current consumption was astronomical, sometimes triggering
| the protection of the power supply on certain images
|
| That's surprising, since I was always under the impression that
| E-Ink displays were pretty low-power. Is it the drawing of the
| new image that requires so much energy in a small instant?
| nine_k wrote:
| E-ink is zero power when displaying the picture. But moving
| all these tiny ink particles around takes a lot of energy.
|
| I suspect that low refresh rates are partly due to the
| problems of power delivery to the pixels via transparent
| conductors.
| retrac wrote:
| E-ink has no draw when static, but changing from white to
| black or back involves a physical state change that takes
| quite a lot of energy. Many eink readers rate their battery
| life in number of full screen refreshes.
| robomartin wrote:
| I understand where you are coming from. I have a love-hate
| relationship with patents. That said, I try not to pass
| judgement on such things until I fully understand the story
| (not saying you don't).
|
| For example, if a technology took ten years and ten billion
| dollars to develop to the point of it being commercially
| viable, well, yeah, a patent-protected monopoly is likely the
| ethically correct privilege the inventors should be granted.
|
| An example (out of many) of bullshit patents and monopolies
| that should have never been granted are the horseshit patents
| Color Kinetics got years ago. These people had the audacity to
| patent the use of pulse-width-modulation to control the
| intensity of LEDs and make lights that could produce different
| colors. The patent office granted these people patent after
| patent. Once they had enough they started to attack the entire
| LED industry. Philips ended-up acquiring them. They let the
| industry know they would not enforce the bullshit patents.
| Still, the crooks took their thievery all the way to the bank.
|
| -----
|
| As for the relative cost of LCD's vs. E-ink. I think the
| primary difference is very simple: Volume. I haven't done the
| numbers, but I think I can say that the LCD industry is at
| least 1,000 times larger in volume. It's like the LCD vs. OLED
| comparison. Volume is king.
|
| Another element is the tooling-up for manufacturing. A modern
| LCD manufacturing plant runs in the billions. Two billion
| dollars the last time I checked, but I haven't been in the
| industry for ten years and have lost touch. You are not going
| to take a multi-billion-dollar factory and slice-off a corner
| to make e-ink displays. These factories are highly automated
| and tuned machines. They are designed to make millions of
| displays per month.
|
| This means that making e-ink displays requires putting-up a
| specialized factory or retooling an old LCD factory that might
| no-longer be competitive for making LCD's. Regardless of the
| approach, this is likely to be a very expensive undertaking.
| That, coupled with lower volume, is guaranteed to translate
| into higher prices.
|
| Disclaimer: I was in the high performance display business for
| ten years. Exited a decade ago. So, yeah, I am a little
| disconnected as to the latest and greatest and what might be
| new in manufacturing. That said, I get the sense that material
| changes haven't been as significant in the last ten years as
| they were during the prior ten.
| iso8859-1 wrote:
| Why can't a Chinese company clone their product and kill them?
| dodobirdlord wrote:
| They could replace E-Ink _in China_ , and maybe they already
| have. But China's disregard for IP protections doesn't mean
| that goods created in China that violate international IP
| agreements can be exported.
| mieses wrote:
| Boox exports to the US and violates GPL.
| mywittyname wrote:
| They could easily clone & kill the technology itself. The
| problem comes from the fact that e-ink is worthless unless it
| is attached to a device with really strong vendor support.
| And any vendor worth a damn doesn't want to be the target of
| a billion dollar lawsuit.
|
| So the choice is between an overpriced device from a major
| player, or a cheap device with next to no support from a no-
| name vendor.
| purplecats wrote:
| I'll take the second, as long as there are no hazards. I
| think the hacker community could build something usable.
| neonological wrote:
| The question is, If the patent system didn't allow the inventor
| to screw with the market and take advantage of everybody would
| they have had the incentive in the first place to develop the
| technology?
|
| So yes the patent is responsible for the existence of the
| monopoly, but it is also responsible for the existence of the
| product that the monopoly is built upon.
|
| I think a 10 year limit on the monopoly is a good compromise
| (which is basically what the patent system is already doing).
| Even with those companies patenting DNA... after 10 years the
| argument is over.
| pfortuny wrote:
| geometric increase in the patent permit price.
| edent wrote:
| I have a Boyue Likebook Ares - it cost PS190.
| https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2019/11/gadget-review-boyue-likeboo...
|
| It has an 8inch screen - about the same size as the iPad mini. It
| runs Android 8 but, obviously, some apps work better than others.
| It came with several nibs for its pencil.
|
| They have an 10 inch version for around PS230. See
| https://goodereader.com/blog/electronic-readers/boyue-p10-is...
|
| So, there are some cheapish, largeish, eInk devices out there.
|
| I was told (and I have no way to back it up) that the yields on
| eInk are fairly low. They make a couple of square metres of
| screen, and then have to cut it to size. Because of defects in
| the process, they can have a lot of wastage. So the larger sizes
| are disproportionally more expensive.
| Snitch-Thursday wrote:
| I ended up with a Likebook Mars as it fulfilled the entire
| criteria I had. Very similar design to the Ares.
|
| headphone jack
|
| runs new enough android to run syncthing
|
| supports SD card
| dpritchett wrote:
| Not supporting a browser, games, or a media player IS the killer
| feature for anyone with ADHD or other focus issues.
|
| There are lots of us out here.
|
| Some even people do their deep work on a separate airgapped
| computer just to preserve their focus.
| nojito wrote:
| I used to have this problem, but I set up my ipad with parental
| control features so that I am unable to distract myself.
| dpritchett wrote:
| What stops you from unlocking the parental controls?
|
| If that's not a recurring issue for you then you may not have
| an executive function disorder.
| matsemann wrote:
| (I don't have a disorder, but) for me the case is often
| that I just mindlessly click my HN bookmark, open reddit
| app, lichess puzzle etc to kill a few minutes. Just the
| popup telling me that it's blocked is enough to make my
| brain realize what I'm about to do and abort. I _could_
| just click the button to override, but my "mindlessly
| browsing" mode got disturbed and suddenly I'm conscious
| about it happening.
| dpritchett wrote:
| For a few decades I tried and failed to make hostfile
| blocks, guided access mode, browser focus-tracking
| extensions, day planners, public accountability, timers,
| and more work for me.
|
| What _actually_ works as I count the weeks to my fortieth
| birthday is a fragile and ever-shifting combination of
| adderall, sleep, diet, exercise, therapy, e-ink devices,
| and the courage to be open up and be vulnerable with
| those who depend on me at work and at home.
|
| Splurging on a color laser printer and an e-ink tablet
| have given me two more ways to have a hope of staying on
| task a bit more every day.
| stocknoob wrote:
| Have a friend/spouse/hated rival set the parental control
| code.
| ericd wrote:
| I wouldn't think of the remarkable 2 as "less than" an iPad. Part
| of the point of it is that it is completely focused on being a
| paper replacement. It doesn't pop up random notifications at you
| while you're trying to think, and it doesn't offer the
| opportunity for distraction when you get momentarily stuck on
| something, which makes it a lot easier to power through.
|
| It's like how not having junk food in the house makes dieting a
| lot easier - you don't have to use willpower to do the right
| thing, because the wrong thing is hard to do.
| PurpleFoxy wrote:
| You can trivially disable notifications and remove games/social
| media from the iPad.
| mlthoughts2018 wrote:
| I own a Remarkable 2 and it is vastly superior to an iPad (which
| I also own) for many use cases. I would likely pay more for
| Remarkable 2 than for a full-sized iPad at this point, as the
| streaming and browsing capabilities are not useful to me anymore
| (I would use iPhone for all of that).
|
| I'd also like better integrations with alternate cloud storage
| providers, but this is true for Apple products too.
|
| Combine with the fact you can literally ssh to your Remarkable
| and write your own apps, it's a no-brainer.
| ohitsdom wrote:
| I would have loved to buy something more capable, but instead I
| settled for this cheap LCD writing display as a mini-whiteboard.
| I don't even know how to describe this technology but it gets the
| job done at $20.
|
| https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07QL11LWF
| AshamedCaptain wrote:
| This has been my point many times -- people actually have
| trouble distinguishing eInk from el-cheapo non-backlighted LCD
| displays.
| sneak wrote:
| My guess, from ignorance: the volumes are way lower vs
| traditional tablets, thinning margins and driving retail price
| up.
|
| Niche devices almost always cost more.
| Someone wrote:
| I don't think they still be niche if they were competitive with
| LCDs in other aspects, most importantly color gamut and ability
| to show video (I think longevity and power usage already are
| competitive, if not more than so).
|
| So, why? Are they inherently more difficult or expensive to
| manufacture, do they use materials that are too rare?
| sneak wrote:
| The way e-ink works is quite different from an LCD. They
| didn't even get color until recently.
|
| Personally, I think the benefits of reflective reading
| surfaces (ie e-ink) over backlit reading surfaces (everything
| else) is massively overblown. I have an e-ink tablet now that
| they are >300ppi and it's nice to read on, but it's a
| novelty. Some people love 'em, but that hasn't stopped the
| iPad Pro from outselling all of the e-ink tablets by a huge
| factor. I think e-ink's future is mainly in small/low
| power/ambient displays, like price tags or luggage tags.
|
| Most people read most things off of their phones or tablets
| and it's just fine.
| m-p-3 wrote:
| If I could bind a 8/10" eInk tablet that was around $200
| (or $300) on which I could read and reply to my emails,
| read RSS feeds, check my calendar and take handwritten
| notes on it (that I could export/sync) I'd constantly use
| it.
| criddell wrote:
| These guys sell something like that:
|
| https://www.boox.com/
|
| I've heard they are great except for the GPL
| violations...
| cmiller1 wrote:
| What about a hybrid display for portable devices. A
| transparent OLED panel sitting over an e-ink display. You
| could have the battery life and readability of e-ink and
| just turn on the front panel when you needed full color or
| fast refresh rates such as for video.
| jMyles wrote:
| The same reason we can't have many nice things: threats of
| violence toward innovators under the guise of intellectual
| "property".
| RicoElectrico wrote:
| The company holding patents for e-ink is literally retarded, as
| if they don't want it to succeed. I'm not making this up. [1]
|
| Sure e-ink has its flaws, but wouldn't it be better to have a
| smaller slice of a much larger cake?
|
| OLED is patent encumbered too, there's also a patent holding
| company, despite that you can buy smallest modules for less than
| $2 on AliExpress.
|
| [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22829798
| Naga wrote:
| I agree completely with your points, and I'm sorry be that guy,
| but "literally retarded" is offensive language and is frankly
| below the level of discourse of HN. I'm not one to be the PC
| police but really, come on. You can make your argument without
| resulting to slurs like that.
|
| https://www.verywellfamily.com/what-is-the-r-word-3105651
| ThePower wrote:
| wonderful response from all of you to a very annoying comment
| from Naga. "Your offense offends me" is exactly how I feel.
| nate_meurer wrote:
| As a synonym for "inexplicably, self-destructively foolish",
| the word "retarded" is effective, illustrative, and even more
| concise. As I said elsewhere downthread, I can't offhand come
| up with a better single phrase to describe the crew in charge
| of the E-Ink patents. And yes, I'm sure that says more about
| my limited linguistic faculties than anything else.
|
| I do think it's important to point out that your taken
| offense is entirely your opinion. You are certainly entitled
| to that opinion, and I trust that you're coming from a good
| place, but I feel it's also important to acknowledge the
| occasional usefulness of language that you might be
| personally offended by.
| 6gvONxR4sf7o wrote:
| > it's also important to acknowledge the occasional
| usefulness of language that you might be personally
| offended by.
|
| I appreciate the emphasis on usefulness rather than right
| or wrong. I certainly didn't interpret "inexplicably, self-
| destructively foolish" when I read the comment and
| apparently that extends to others too, which also speaks to
| usefulness or lack thereof.
|
| On the internet, writing anonymously to a large anonymous
| group is very very much communication on hard mode. Things
| like Poe's law reign supreme. If your goal is to get idea X
| into as many of the comment readers' heads as possible,
| then it's useful to use language that means the same thing
| to as many of those readers as possible. I think that's
| what people mean when they talk about "inclusive" language?
|
| The HN style generally seems to be choosing the clear
| inclusive phrasing over the stylistic(?) phrasing, choosing
| "inexplicably, self-destructively foolish" over "literally
| retarded."
|
| (Not trying to be language police. Just a language nerd who
| likes to talk about language.)
| pid_0 wrote:
| Is this really necessary? Retard is not used to refer to
| people with mental disabilities. It is not a slur. Its a new
| social justice campaign to get mad about something when they
| ran out of things to complain about.
|
| Guess what, stupid, moron, idiot, etc used to refer to people
| with mental disabilities. Why aren't they campaigning to ban
| those words too?
| darkwater wrote:
| > Guess what, stupid, moron, idiot, etc used to refer to
| people with mental disabilities.
|
| No, they were not. And despite what the "you get offended
| so quickly" mob says, "retarded" main meaning when used in
| a negative fashion against someone always, _always_ appeals
| to the "that person/entity has the mental abilities of
| someone with Down syndrome or any other similar
| intellectual disability". And you, me and everybody else
| KNOW this. You just decided that this won't trouble you.
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| > No, they were not.
|
| Yes, they were: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiot
|
| > An idiot, in modern use, is a stupid or foolish person.
|
| > It was formerly a technical term in legal and
| psychiatric contexts for some kinds of profound
| intellectual disability where the mental age is two years
| or less, and the person cannot guard themself against
| common physical dangers.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moron_(psychology)
|
| > Moron is a term once used in psychology and psychiatry
| to denote mild intellectual disability.[1] The term was
| closely tied with the American eugenics movement.[2] Once
| the term became popularized, it fell out of use by the
| psychological community, as it was used more commonly as
| an insult than as a psychological term. It is similar to
| imbecile and idiot.[3]
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imbecile
|
| > The term imbecile was once used by psychiatrists to
| denote a category of people with moderate to severe
| intellectual disability, as well as a type of
| criminal.[1][2] The word arises from the Latin word
| imbecillus, meaning weak, or weak-minded.[3] It included
| people with an IQ of 26-50, between "idiot" (IQ of 0-25)
| and "moron" (IQ of 51-70).[4] In the obsolete medical
| classification (ICD-9, 1977), these people were said to
| have "moderate mental retardation" or "moderate mental
| subnormality" with IQ of 35-49.[5]
| nate_meurer wrote:
| > _And you, me and everybody else KNOW this._
|
| No, you may know this about yourself, and I don't doubt
| that you feel strongly about it, but you're projecting
| your feelings onto everyone else here.
|
| To me, words like retard, imbecile, idiot, etc. don't
| immediately invoke thoughts of mentally disabled people.
| Rather, I take them as descriptions of fools. GP's post
| is a good example of this, and was an effective use of
| the word to describe extremely foolish behavior.
| [deleted]
| 2038AD wrote:
| >No, they were not
|
| Not arguing any real point other than yes those words
| did. Have a couple of definitions I found in a rather
| harshly titled old book, _Backward and feeble-minded
| children_
|
| > Idiots. -- Those so defective that the mental
| development never exceeds that of a normal child of about
| two years.
|
| > Morons. -- Those whose mental development is above that
| of an imbecile, but does not exceed that of a normal
| child of about twelve years.
|
| https://archive.org/details/backwardfeeblemi00huey/page/6
| /
| reaperducer wrote:
| Bonus points for not citing Wikipedia.
| 13415 wrote:
| I think you and others are missing the point of how
| language works.
|
| The situation is similar to famous Dutch insults like
| _Kankerlijer_ (cancer sufferer), _Klerelijer_ (cholera
| sufferer), or _Pleurislijer_ (tuberculosis suffer). Using
| these to insult people who indeed suffer from these
| diseases is questionable and can be rather tasteless. It
| may even be confusing and fail to work entirely. By the
| way, it 's also wrong to insult sick people just because
| they are sick, and it's wrong to insult people with
| mental disabilities just because they have mental
| disabilities. But using such expressions to insult,
| swear, or exaggerate at healthy people is a quite normal
| function of the Dutch language. So Yes, if this e-ink
| company was indeed lead by people with mental
| disabilities, using the r-word to make fun of them would
| be rather tasteless and possibly also ineffective.
|
| Swear words and insults work because they break a taboo.
| If you regulate language to avoid one taboo, then
| speakers will simply resort to breaking another taboo.
| reaperducer wrote:
| _using such expressions to insult, swear, or exaggerate
| at healthy people is a quite normal function of the Dutch
| language_
|
| English, too.
|
| It reminds me of early 2002 when all the little kids on
| the playgrounds were calling each other "terrorist" as an
| insult. Their parents were aghast, but to them, they just
| knew it meant a really bad person.
| alisonkisk wrote:
| What do you think "slur" means? All of these words are
| slurs, and they detract from discourse while adding
| nothing.
|
| No one's banning "words" here. They are discouraging misuse
| of language that drags down the quality of discourse.
| da_big_ghey wrote:
| I don't think it detracted from the discussion at all.
| Rather, I think that RicoElectrico's comment is helpful
| and that this sub-thread is not. It's not like retard is
| a clinical diagnosis any more, so there are no "retards"
| out there to offend, anyway.
| 1shooner wrote:
| It's called the euphemism treadmill[1]. It's nothing new,
| and it's a normal part of language. Attributing it to some
| sort of contemporary 'social justice campaign' seems very
| reactionary.
|
| [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphemism#Euphemism_treadm
| ill
| wernercd wrote:
| crying about a word is reactionary... especially when you
| are getting offended for other people who haven't asked
| for your help.
| 1shooner wrote:
| I don't think anyone is crying about it. Here's a simple
| thought experiment: would you use that word while sitting
| at dinner with a developmentally disabled child and his
| parents?
| [deleted]
| alexfrydl wrote:
| I was thinking that this word is not, in fact, below the
| level of discourse of HN and based on the other replies I
| don't believe I even have to back this statement up.
| fortran77 wrote:
| This is why Hacker News is a big joke among _real_ tech
| leaders. Literally.
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/LOLHackerNews/
| thatguy0900 wrote:
| And the people on a lol reddit are the real tech leaders?
| gregallan wrote:
| I suppose you consider all 87 of the members of that
| subreddit to be the " _real_ tech leaders ", then?
| bzb6 wrote:
| You say you're sorry to be that guy, but you seem happy to be
| that guy. Don't be that guy, because it's your comment and
| the successive noise that is below the level of discourse of
| HN, making this discussion pretty retarded.
| minikites wrote:
| I agree and the people who are tying themselves into knots to
| justify using the r-word reminds of people who pointedly use
| the word "niggardly" instead of any number of synonyms just
| to get a rise out of the audience.
| sgtnoodle wrote:
| You just justified to yourself a reason to use an even more
| controversial word out of the blue in a contrived way. I
| hope you were being intentionally ironic.
| minikites wrote:
| It's less controversial than the r-word, which is why
| it's a good analogy. People who insist that it's okay to
| say one usually insist that it's okay to say the other
| one, because they don't understand the ways words hurt
| people.
| reaperducer wrote:
| _It 's less controversial than the r-word_
|
| I'm not sure that's true.
|
| About a decade ago some prominent politician or other
| official was publicly excoriated for using "niggardly"
| correctly. I don't think anyone's lost their job for
| using "retarded" in its academic form.
| minikites wrote:
| >I don't think anyone's lost their job for using
| "retarded" in its academic form.
|
| I could be convinced otherwise, but I believe that's a
| result of more people knowing not to use it, the same way
| you don't hear much about people getting fired for saying
| the actual n-word. "Person gets fired for saying
| technically correct word" is more 'newsworthy' than
| "Person gets fired for saying obvious slur".
|
| I did find this, although the person who was fired also
| made racial comments in addition to saying the r-word:
| https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-candidate-
| lost-j...
| reaperducer wrote:
| I once worked next door to a charity that had a name
| something like "Association For Retarded Citizens." It was
| very well loved and respected in the community.
|
| Then the 1990's happened and it changed its name to something
| more politically correct like "Association For Individuals Of
| Differing Abilities." I found out when the big sign out front
| that i used to park by was changed.
|
| A year or so later, the sign changed again. Back to
| "Association For Retarded Citizens." There was an article in
| one of the newspapers saying that donations dried up because
| nobody knew who they were or what they did anymore.
|
| Just an interesting anecdote.
| Karsteski wrote:
| Your offense offends me. What do we do about Thai situation
| now?
| canadianfella wrote:
| Thai?
| StavrosK wrote:
| While I agree, the word _itself_ doesn 't seem to be
| particularly offensive, no? It's a matter of using it in an
| offensive manner, which means that even if we move on to
| "disabled" now, that's soon going to meet the same fate. I
| think we should strive not to use mental disability in a
| derogatory manner, no matter the word.
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| This word has gained hurtful and harmful connotations.
| Usually you can wait long enough and cycle them back in,
| but increased access to old books and - now - the internet
| has given us longer cultural memories, so it might never
| lose its slur connotations.
| g63wchueuo wrote:
| tho shalt never name their child karen, until such
| connotations have absolved.
| Firehawke wrote:
| Well, you certainly won't choose names with nary a Karen
| the world.
| g63wchueuo wrote:
| thats just it tho. no retards were harmed in writing that
| sentence. any retards here disagree? instead what we have
| is a group of people offended on behalf of retards, which
| is itself retarded
| craftinator wrote:
| Dead.
| g63wchueuo wrote:
| i stand corrected
| Ajedi32 wrote:
| Don't necessarily disagree with you, but seeing as "the r
| word" is no longer used to refer to mentally disabled people
| it seems a little late to be campaigning to end its use as a
| pejorative _now_. If anything, these efforts should be
| directed towards ending the use of "autism" in a pejorative
| context, as if that trend isn't stopped then that term is up
| next on the euphemism treadmill.
|
| I also wonder if perhaps these sort of concerted efforts to
| treat certain words as unacceptable to say might actually be
| giving those words _more_ power than they otherwise would
| have. After all, "idiot" used to refer to mentally disabled
| people and few would consider that word to be particularly
| offensive today.
| Jiocus wrote:
| The word "idiot" predates the brief medical use for a
| mentally disabled individual.
|
| Originally an ancient greek insult, suggesting that someone
| doesn't understand politics. Such was life debating at the
| agora. At least it was one example given by several
| teachers on English, Swedish.
|
| Returning to the use in medicine; I imagine the label was
| used verbatim to mean "lacking comprehension" or "ability",
| so also describe a condition.
| CabSauce wrote:
| Don't necessarily disagree with you, but seeing as "the r
| word" is no longer used to refer to mentally disabled
| people it seems a little late...
|
| That is a hilarious take. You must be a lawyer.
| alisonkisk wrote:
| We can attend to more than one abuse of language at once.
| "Idiot" and other discourse-terminaring slurs have no place
| on HN.
|
| It's not the word that's the problem, it's the intended
| meaning. The euphemism treadmill is when people keep
| changing words instead of communicating better.
| nate_meurer wrote:
| Except GP didn't use the word "retard" to terminate
| discourse, or to shortcut debate or insult anyone in this
| thread. The word was purely descriptive, and this
| context, quite appropriate and illustrative. I can think
| of no other single word that better describes the
| behavior of the E-Ink patent holders.
| Karawebnetwork wrote:
| > I can think of no other single word that better
| describes the behavior of the E-Ink patent holders.
|
| This is the central point of this issue.
|
| This person uses a word that used to mean "person with a
| mental health problem" to describe a situation where a
| company "lacks intelligence and awareness".
|
| People who have been and still are the victims of this
| insult do not want to be associated with the concept of
| "lack of intelligence".
|
| Write the same sentence without using the slur as a
| crutch. "The company that holds the patents for
| electronic ink has an [intellectual disability]".
|
| In this format, it is very clear that this wording is
| problematic.
|
| In any case, it is simply bad writing. There are many
| other ways to describe what this company does without
| using a word that comes with a heavy medical and social
| history.
| 6gvONxR4sf7o wrote:
| I wonder if this is an age thing? Up until very very
| recently, "retarded" did mean what we now refer to as
| mentally disabled. It was a slur that people pushed back on
| just like the words that preceded it, but the pejorative
| figurative use won out. But it's too recent to say that's
| definitively not what it means anymore. It's hard to date
| these kinds of things, but the first document I found was
| the social security administration changing their
| terminology in just 2013.
|
| It seems pretty clear cut that while maybe "retarded" has a
| different meaning for younger people than it does for my
| age group, the phrase "literally retarded," is clearly
| contrasting against the figurative use. It seems clear that
| it's pointing right back to mental disability, even if
| "literally" is figurative here.
|
| Maybe the lesson here is that for quickly shifting words
| that mean something different to different generations,
| sensitivity is a worthwhile thing in a forum whose users
| span a few generations.
| reaperducer wrote:
| _Up until very very recently, "retarded" did mean what we
| now refer to as mentally disabled_
|
| When I was young, it meant children who were not
| developing either mentally or physically to the timeline
| of a statistically average child.
|
| It was not necessarily a pejorative. It was just a fact.
| PartiallyTyped wrote:
| I would like to point towards urban dictionary and
| different definitions of literally [1] that I found quite
| amusing, please excuse the language.
|
| > a word with no meaning in today's USA. Person 1: I am
| literally going to have a stroke if I see another tweet
| about fake news. Person 2: Are you really? Should I call
| 911?
|
| ---
|
| > Who fucking knows anymore? First, it meant factual, and
| now it means fictional. What the fuck, internet... what
| the fuck?
|
| ---
|
| > a much misused adverb, often for emphasis
|
| > "I literally died of embarrassment."
|
| > "Really? How was reincarnation, you fucking illiterate
| dipshit?"
|
| ---
|
| > A good way to show that you are a total drama queen
| twit is to use the term 'literally' to describe every
| mundane thing that you do in life
|
| ---
|
| All of this begs the question, when does a definition of
| a word change? I suppose it happens when we collectively
| agree on it, or perhaps when a large enough segment of
| the population agrees. Perhaps at this point, literally
| can mean figuratively if we consider the misuse, in the
| same way we accept irregardless and regardless as being
| one and the same. But I suppose then a new word would be
| necessary to literally mean literally and avoid
| confusion.
|
| [1]
| https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Literally
| iguy wrote:
| "begs the question" is another phrase whose meaning is
| now in the uncertain zone, by the same process.
| 6gvONxR4sf7o wrote:
| > All of this begs the question, when does a definition
| change of a word change?
|
| (This is a perfect context for "begs the question")
|
| I think that form of the question isn't a useful one and
| that's the issue in the broader discussion. A definition
| is a useful yet leaky abstraction. If you take the
| viewpoint that a dictionary is merely descriptive, then
| "the" definition isn't really a thing. "A" definition is
| more appropriate. If a definition is an attempt to
| capture one of the common ways people use and understand
| a word, your question becomes this:
|
| When do the ways people use and understand a word change?
| At what point is there close enough to nobody left using
| a word in a given way?
|
| The distinction is crucial here because a word can mean
| many things, and it can mean different things to
| different people. I'd answer your question by pointing to
| that phrase about science: It progresses one funeral at a
| time.
| michaelt wrote:
| _> the phrase "literally retarded," is clearly
| contrasting against the figurative use._
|
| There is a current fashion to use "literally" as an
| intensifier, rather than to mean "not figuratively".
| Google "literally misuse" for a wealth of hand-wringing
| articles.
|
| I'm pretty sure RicoElectrico is using "literally" as an
| intensifier - after all, companies don't have thoughts or
| minds, cannot be IQ tested, and therefore cannot have
| intellectual disabilities.
| [deleted]
| sdenton4 wrote:
| Think through the usage of a few other slurs. I think
| you'll find many of them are used both as a slur /and/ to
| describe some negative stereotype of the targeted group as
| it arises anywhere else. The 'generality' is just
| reinforcement of the stereotype, and doesn't make the slur
| acceptable.
|
| Finally, the 'r-word' has been on the outs for /decades/
| now. I tend to associate it with clueless teenagers - the
| same ones typically spewing lots of homophobic slurs - and
| anyone I hear using it will typically get a BIG discount in
| my perception.
| reaperducer wrote:
| _After all, "idiot" used to refer to mentally disabled
| people and few would consider that word to be particularly
| offensive today._
|
| And a "geek" used to be the guy in the carnival sideshow
| who would bite the heads off of live chickens.
|
| Think about that the next time you see a Geek Squad van in
| your neighborhood.
| dillondoyle wrote:
| It is still used as both a slur and a legitimate term.
|
| But even if #1 is false it's not up to neuro-typicals to
| decide if that word is 'fair game.' It is up to that
| community.
|
| And if they do reclaim the term like BIPOC we still have to
| understand and listen and not inject ourselves. Just like
| BIPOC use racist pejoratives - for many complex cultural
| reasons - it is not up to me/us a white guy to dictate or
| judge.
| inb4_cancelled wrote:
| People of color can use their racist pejoratives all day
| long, but so will I. Because not allowing different skin-
| color people say the same things you can say is, well,
| racism.
| schwartzworld wrote:
| > After all, "idiot" used to refer to mentally disabled
| people and few would consider that word to be particularly
| offensive today.
|
| Sure, if your friend lovingly jokes that you're an "idiot"
| you won't be offended, but the same can be said for most
| insults or slurs.
|
| However, insults that previously were medical terms can
| carry particular heft for some people. Try telling the
| women in your life they are being "hysterical" when they
| are unhappy with you. Both law and medicine stopped using
| those words for a reason.
|
| Personally, I wouldn't like being called an idiot, and I
| would take issue with that word being used to describe my
| loved ones.
| Ajedi32 wrote:
| In those examples it's the statement that's offensive,
| not the individual words used to express it. If I'm
| having an argument with someone and they imply I'm
| mentally deficient, it doesn't matter what words they use
| to say that; the statement itself is inherently
| offensive.
|
| Here however it's not the statement people are objecting
| to (most even seem to agree with that part), but one
| particular word that was used in expressing that
| statement. That's a different thing entirely, and it's
| what I mean here when I talk about a _word_ being
| offensive.
| mumblemumble wrote:
| Except that it _is_ still used to refer to people with
| developmental disabilities. Typically as a pejorative term.
|
| Edit: Thinking on your 2nd point, I suspect that you've got
| your arrow of causality backwards.
| Ajedi32 wrote:
| > I suspect that you've got your arrow of causality
| backwards.
|
| I think there are two arrows of causality here actually,
| and they form a cycle. A word is offensive, therefore
| it's taboo. The word is taboo, therefore it's offensive.
| Why is "shit" vulgar, but "feces" not? Language is weird
| like that.
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| Language isn't inherently offensive; it _offends people_. In
| this instance, you1 're hurting, offending and low-level
| ostracising a _totally different group of people_ to the ones
| you1 're trying to offend.
|
| If you1 want to use a slur, choose a better one.
|
| ___
|
| 1: "you" means the grandparent comment (GP)
| graeme wrote:
| I genuinely can't tell who you're referring to. The parent
| to your comment is the one you're replying to, but it
| sounds like you're addressing the grandparent?
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| I am; thanks. Corrected.
| inb4_cancelled wrote:
| Too afraid to post this on my main account.
|
| I don't mind you using that word. It's a generic slur stripped
| of its original meaning. I use it all the time.
| anfractuosity wrote:
| I wonder why electrowetting based displays aren't more
| prominent?
|
| They presumably wouldn't be covered by the e-ink patents, as
| they seem to work on a different principle.
| StavrosK wrote:
| Didn't the OLED patent expire this year? Am I misremembering?
| arsome wrote:
| Are those $2 Chinese modules really paying to license the
| patent?
| RicoElectrico wrote:
| I have to say: I don't know, but royalties may be also paid
| by upstream suppliers, as there are patents on specific
| chemicals. There's a chance these chemicals are made e.g. in
| Japan.
| 2Gkashmiri wrote:
| why do i care if they don't ? for for that matter anyone
| here? its not like we are owners of e-ink
| corytheboyd wrote:
| I remember buying my first LCD display in the CRT era. It was
| tiny, thick, ugly, and of course expensive. Now they're cheap and
| everywhere. The same will happen with e-ink in time.
|
| Honestly I would rather have the iPad for note taking. Response
| times are important for rapid idea translation, and e-ink systems
| are very lacking here, whereas the iPad is not. Probably an
| unpopular opinion, but it's my own experience.
| pidg wrote:
| Response time (i.e. pen touch to pixel appearing) on the latest
| generation of e-ink devices is literally imperceptible, though
| I believe they've had to cut a few minor corners to get it to
| that level.
| ComputerGuru wrote:
| Drawing a pixel where none exists is not too bad. The trouble
| is drawing when there is already something on the screen.
| PurpleFoxy wrote:
| The iPad also has a massive library of software. There is an
| app called "Concepts" which provides an infinite canvas in all
| directions and it seems really useful for engineering and
| design type people where you can just draw an idea in the
| middle and move outwards with notes or alternate revisions. All
| in color, with pressure sensitivity.
| toyg wrote:
| Beyond patent issues, TBH I would not have a problem paying for a
| reMarkable this very day, if I could be 10000% sure that there
| wasn't some shitty SaaS service involved in using it at any
| stage.
|
| These days, whenever a new gadget comes up, my first reaction has
| become "I wonder how they try to screw you into a SaaS later".
| habitue wrote:
| I have one, and the cloud service is actually completely
| replaceable if you want. Since the device is running linux you
| can compile to arm7 and just run a sync cron to whatever server
| you want if you don't like their cloud service.
|
| Edit: I think people may have the impression this is like
| Android where the process is "ok, first reboot, hold all the
| buttons but not that one button and then unlock root, then
| flash the rom with a custom version of the OS from this sketchy
| site and ... bam! You're in control now"
|
| Actually it's like: sign into wifi on the device. It's now
| running an ssh server available on your network. The password
| to log in as root is in the settings. You can ssh in right then
| and write a bash script to do what you want.
| sq_ wrote:
| Does that still hold for the reMarkable 2?
| hcs wrote:
| Yes, and the filesystem is still mostly the same.
| habitue wrote:
| yeah, I have the reMarkable 2 myself. It's an amazing
| device. The only downside is really the cost. It's premium
| quality like an Apple device (the unboxing is a trip) and
| it's hackable on day one.
| hauget wrote:
| That, and the lack of documentation on repairability. I
| mean, I don't want to invest $450 on a device I can't fix
| or change the battery down the line.
| dec0dedab0de wrote:
| I'm sure one of the people who own one will chime in, but i
| think the whole device is hackable, you can get into a linux
| shell as root and do whatever you want.
| syats wrote:
| Out of the box, the SaaS thingy is not really needed, you can
| just signup and use the device without ever logging in or
| downloading their mobile app. They're just kind enough to
| keep all your notes for you and thus, by default, need a
| bunch of battery power for the sync process.
| jmholla wrote:
| You don't even need to sign up.
| neekburm wrote:
| I have one, thus far their cloud service is free and
| hopefully will continue to be so. Every ReMarkable comes with
| an 8gb cloud account, which is the same amount of storage on
| the device.
|
| Hopefully this doesn't change, because it's really a pain to
| put things on the tablet without using their app.
| codethief wrote:
| > Hopefully this doesn't change, because it's really a pain
| to put things on the tablet without using their app.
|
| Have you tried Syncthing[0, 1]? I'm actually considering
| buying a ReMarkable 2 right now and the fact that Syncthing
| seems to be working on it is playing a major role in my
| decision process.
|
| [0]: https://syncthing.net
|
| [1]: https://github.com/evidlo/remarkable_syncthing
| chrismorgan wrote:
| You can easily disable software updates, and don't need to set
| up the cloud sync service. The device is completely usable with
| no internet connection, and you get ssh access that you can do
| what you like with, and they provide a Qt SDK to build anything
| against. But I do wish xochitl (their UI) was open source.
| charlesdaniels wrote:
| I was under the impression that ReMarkable in particular was
| pretty good about this. I believe they just run a custom Linux
| variant and you can even ssh into them.
|
| I was really considering getting one, but I think the bigger
| issue for me is the LiPo battery. You can't take the thing
| apart without a heat gun because it's held together with
| adhesive, so in a few years when the battery doesn't hold a
| charge, you have an expensive paperweight. I would pay a
| premium for a thicker device that used normal screws so that
| consumables such as the battery can be replaced easily.
|
| (Many devices these days are similar, so it's not only
| ReMarkable doing this.)
| PurpleFoxy wrote:
| The iPad is much better at it. You just install Nextcloud on
| it and now all apps have support for saving to your own
| server
| bloodorange wrote:
| A thicker device would be more comfortable to hold as well.
| It feels heavy and it is slim. So, it "digs" into the palms a
| bit depending on how you hold it and that is not comfortable
| for extended periods of handheld use.
| daniellarusso wrote:
| Economies of scale?
| ip26 wrote:
| Yeah, niche products feel like an education in how powerful
| economics of scale & competition really are. It's easy to
| understand conceptually without having a grasp of the
| magnitude. But take apart a $300 food dehydrator, and it's
| basically 1940's technology. The market just doesn't have
| competition or scale.
|
| Gives me a new appreciation for why access to goods was so
| limited in the past.
| mariusor wrote:
| I'm pretty sure you don't need a question mark.
|
| reMarkable is a small company that is now shipping their second
| device. Apple has shipped iPads for 11 years, even if they
| updated the hardware at every step, they still can rely on a
| well established supply chain.
|
| It feels off-putting to see people get into this entitled
| mindset that requires that small companies price their products
| in the same low ranges as well established ones can afford to -
| either through unethical production practices, or, like you
| mentioned, economy of scale - or they're not worth it.
|
| PS. Sorry to rant at OP in your replies.
| cameron_b wrote:
| Not E-ink, but alternative tablet - Repaper:
|
| https://www.iskn.co/repaper/shop/repaper
|
| I got my wife ( a non-techie painter ) one for Christmas and just
| set it up last night on our iMac.
|
| Adoption -> volume -> buying power -> lower component prices,
| better feature implementation
|
| I think most of the alternatives suffer from adoption challenges,
| but I personally love Unix-model physical devices [ which do one
| job well and work well with others ]
|
| So vote with your dollars, and feature requests
| hmottestad wrote:
| Is that just a paper clipboard that can digitize your notes?
| What I like about note-taking on an ipad is that I can move
| stuff around, copy paste, figure-mode, undo button and camera
| for quickly grabbing a picture of the whiteboard or a slide.
| cameron_b wrote:
| it works the same way as a Wacom-type screen-less tablet for
| interacting with a phone, tablet computer or desktop -- with
| or without paper. It has a stylus for use in screen-only
| interactions, but you can also use it away from a computer
| with pencil [ with "ring" ] and paper, and pull up your notes
| later.
| dominotw wrote:
| low scale niche products. obviously.
| luplex wrote:
| I suspect an additional reason: their customers are not very
| price-sensitive. They obviously can't compete with paper on
| price, so they don't even try.
| m-p-3 wrote:
| I'd be a customer if the price was lower..
| PurpleFoxy wrote:
| Well, wording the OP alternatively. They know they can never
| beat the iPad on price so they don't try to squeeze their
| price as much as possible and instead choosing to make the
| device more premium and keep the business sustainable.
| anigbrowl wrote:
| 'Veblen goods' are items that are desirable partly because
| poor people can't afford them. They're a way for better-off
| people to signal to each other. Of course, e-ink devices are
| not so fancy that _only_ well-off people can carry them. But
| if you see someone with an e-ink device and they also have
| nice shoes, clothes, and accessories, it 's reasonable to
| assume somewhat high social status.
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