[HN Gopher] Digging Deeper Into Holocaust History
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Digging Deeper Into Holocaust History
Author : dnetesn
Score : 52 points
Date : 2021-02-14 12:02 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (nautil.us)
(TXT) w3m dump (nautil.us)
| NotACatLover wrote:
| This is even a better review of the topic.
| https://archive.org/details/OneThirdOfTheHolocaustHDVideoHQS...
| Highly suggest giving it a watch when you find free time.
| maratc wrote:
| > The result of this investigation is that all the "historical
| knowledge" which is taught in the school history books about
| these three camps, is based solely on the dubious testimonies
| of very few self-proclaimed "eyewitnesses", which are
| contradictive and technically and scientifically impossible.
|
| Looks like a Holocaust denial movie to me.
| chewz wrote:
| This is sad true that has nothing to do with denials. We know
| only two confirmed survivors of Belzec - one was shot right
| after the war in 1946. For that simple reason - lack of
| victims testimonies - we know very little about the details
| of what has really happened - even simple facts like location
| of buildings, timeline etc...
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belzec_extermination_camp
| [deleted]
| detaro wrote:
| When it's claimed that it's "scientifically impossible" it
| has quite a lot to do with denials. Especially in the
| context of the authors other works.
| vmh1928 wrote:
| There were two reports from the Polish underground that
| described what was going on at Belzec. The Wikipedia
| article you cite links to a description of the camp which
| references those reports. The Wikipedia article you cite
| also references 7 survivors of the camp, not two. It's also
| not true that "even simple facts like location of
| buildings.." are not known. There have been several
| archeological examinations of Belzec. http://www.holocaustr
| esearchproject.org/ar/modern/archreview... https://www.rese
| archgate.net/publication/250397297_Excavatin...
|
| The intent of your post would seem to be to be of a
| denialist nature.
| maratc wrote:
| We still have Hoefle Telegram for the numbers I guess.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofle_Telegram
| chewz wrote:
| True but usually you have multiple documents, testimonies
| and material facts that you can compare for that simple
| reason that human memory fails. Some people say it was
| 100 meters on the left and some others it was 300 meters
| to the right etc...
|
| Also we know about other death camps - Sobibor, Plaszow,
| Treblinka - that they have evolved with time, procedures
| changed etc. With little material documents, lack of
| victims testimonies and lacking archeological research
| historians know way less that they would like to...
|
| Auschwitz is very well documented and there is plenty of
| testimonies. But Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor less so...
|
| > The lack of viable witnesses who could testify about
| the camp's operation is the primary reason why Belzec is
| not well known despite the enormous number of victims.[8]
| Israeli historian David Silberklang writes that Belzec
| "was perhaps the place most representative of the
| totality and finality of the Nazi plans for Jews".
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belzec_extermination_camp
| jcz_nz wrote:
| Yes, same exact thought. This is straight up Holocaust
| denial. The OP is a brand new account, with just this once
| comment. How much longer do we have to deal with this crap...
| Huwyt_Nashi020 wrote:
| >"We exhumed and burned 600 bodies a day. That was the quota
| fixed by the Germans. Two huge pyres with 300 bodies in each were
| burned every day. After the bodies had been burned the bones were
| crushed with metal tools and buried." After the ashes and crushed
| bones were buried, another survivor said, "the Hitlerites filled
| in the ditches, plowed up and sowed the field."
|
| Right, the bodies don't exist because a retreating army depleted
| of resources and willpower has the time and energy for a mass
| exhumation and cremation of 600 bodies per day, then crushing the
| bones into dust and dispersing them. Anyone want to guess how
| much fuel that would consume?
|
| If you're reading this you're smart enough to know this is
| complete fabrication. Your hatred of fascism or fondness for Jews
| does not change history. Have the courage to admit it. At least
| to yourself.
| fiftyacorn wrote:
| I read years ago the third archive was thought to be I'm the
| grounds of the Chinese embassy
| rtkaratekid wrote:
| Pressing prisoners to hide the mass graves which likely held
| bodies of friends and family is some pretty dark stuff. Each time
| I learn more about the Holocaust it just seems to get worse and
| worse. I didn't think it could, but here we are.
| ianai wrote:
| Frankly, my sense of where we are culturally and historically
| makes me think society needs to spend some serious resources
| mass educating around those times.
|
| Those times were as bad and worse than the historical accounts
| indicate. We could inoculate ourselves by voluntarily
| relearning the lessons from those times or live long enough to
| see them swing back around with new actors.
| burntoutfire wrote:
| The articles mixes the terms "Warsaw Ghetto uprising" and "Warsaw
| Uprising". They were two separate uprisings [1]. The fact that
| the author does not know that makes any of his claims on the
| subject questionable. I mean it's absolutely basic knowledge for
| anyone interested in the subject.
|
| [1] The Jewish one being an order of magnitude smaller - it lead
| to death of around 13k Jews and a demolition of one district of
| Warsaw (the Ghetto), while the Polish one lead to death of
| 150k-200k Poles and demolition of majority of Warsaw.
| bjourne wrote:
| TIL. I had no idea there were two different uprisings in
| Warsaw.
| detaro wrote:
| How does it mix them? Just because it, after clearly
| establishing which one it talks about, once says "the Warsaw
| uprising" (note lack of capitalization?)? None of the facts
| seem mixed up?
| burntoutfire wrote:
| It refers to Warsaw Ghetto Uprising as "the Warsaw Uprising",
| which looks like lack of knowledge that these are two
| distinct uprisings.
| detaro wrote:
| I think it's pretty clear that when it says at one point
| "the Warsaw _u_ prising" it means "the uprising in Warsaw
| this article has been talking about then entire thing", not
| "the Warsaw _U_ prising". Bit sloppy, maybe? Indicative of
| lack of knowledge, don't think so.
| charliebrownau wrote:
| They might find out the true number is 275k , not 6m
| superflit wrote:
| Seeing how the China and Italy are not able to cremate enough
| bodies in smaller numbers.
|
| I can only imagine the Germans had some special technique that
| maybe was lost on operation "Paper Clip"?
|
| There was some Tech advancements on nazi German that may have
| spilled on this nefarious use.
|
| Edit: some people are ignoring that advances in technology can
| have positive and negative uses. Nazi german was way ahead in
| propulsion and engine fuel. What if these technologies were used
| to speed up the process we are not considering they were using
| coal as probably the coal supply lines were depleted but about
| about fuel engine? propulsion engine used to evil acts?
| vmh1928 wrote:
| I doubt either of those countries have built crematorium for
| large scale body disposal and are using pre-pandemic
| facilities. Not sure what the point of your post is really
| other than a back-handed denialist swipe.
| DanBC wrote:
| Imagine a person today who dies. They're going to weigh on
| average 80 kg. If they're cremated they'll be wearing a full
| set of clothes, and be in a coffin, and they'll be cremated on
| their own. There will be a full combustion. Afterwards their
| remains will go through checking to remove large metal items
| (hips, knees, metal from the coffin or clothing) and then the
| remains will go through a grinder and packaged and given back
| to the family.
|
| Now imagining all the people who died in the death camps.
|
| They were malnourished and famished. They would have weighed
| maybe 40 - 50 kg. They weren't in coffins. They were naked.
| There would have been multiple corpses per crematoria burning.
| There may not have been full combustion. The remains went
| through big industrial grinders, and after that the remains
| were spread on fields.
|
| Yes, it's fucking obvious that the Nazis used different
| cremation methods in the genocidal campaign than we use today.
| scyzoryk_xyz wrote:
| We will never know the full and complete story of everything that
| happened in those years. Too much was happening, all at the same
| time.
|
| The Nazis approached their work systematically and with an
| enormous obsession with detail. A lot of what we know is due to
| information being scrupulously catalogued and recorded. The
| concentration camps were corporate legal entities which extracted
| labor and then re-sold it into the economy/war machine. In the
| highly emotional narratives on the topic this is frequently left
| out - the Holocaust was a process, optimized to supercharge the
| global war effort. And it worked.
|
| When the tides of the war turned, those same records were then
| systematically erased and burned, though the efforts were spread
| thin, we have _some_ evidence of these cover-up efforts. This is
| often the purpose of these investigations - to show that this
| wasn 't a crime of the moment or of passion, to show the
| premeditation. At the point of the Warsaw Uprising everyone was
| desperate - an unstoppable horde was approaching from the East -
| but the Nazis still continued executing the plan.
|
| Much of what we know is an accumulation of the remaining records
| + systematically catalogued recollections of the survivors. In an
| alternate reality in which the Nazis win, it would have been
| possible that nobody would have found out about much of it at
| all.
|
| Which is highly relevant for us today, and gives a lot to think
| about all the other Holocausts we perhaps are not as familiar
| with. The ones happening now, and the ones that happened but were
| successfully covered up.
|
| (I'm not a researcher - 3/4 of my grandparents are survivors of
| the Buchenwald/Auschwitz-Birkenau/Ravensbruck KL's and these are
| just my two-cents of amateurish thoughts on a subject endlessly
| discussed here in Poland)
| hef19898 wrote:
| I might add, so, that the Nazis might have covered up things.
| Yet, it was kind of common knowledge what happened to the Jews.
| Even if people, like two of my grandparents, did everything to
| ignore it. Because the people next to concentration camps knew
| what was going on. As did those who got appartments from Jews.
| Anecdata, my other grandmother, she worked as a maid at the
| time, used to leave food outside for the inmates of a nearby
| concentration camp when they were driven work. Until she was
| told in no uncertain terms to step if she didn't want to end up
| there as well. She had a painting from one prisoner,
| unfortunately I never asked her more about it.
|
| My point being, people knew. Maybe not the extent, but the
| overall picture. And a lot of them just outright denied that
| knowledge after the war. Kind of understanding, this attitude
| prepared the ground for outright holocaust denial.
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