[HN Gopher] AirPods Causing Tinnitus (600+ reports since 2019?)
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AirPods Causing Tinnitus (600+ reports since 2019?)
Author : albertTJames
Score : 181 points
Date : 2021-02-13 18:44 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (discussions.apple.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (discussions.apple.com)
| piskov wrote:
| I've always searched for studies about impact of the ultra high
| frequencies (GHz i.e. billions as in bluetooth) on the brain and,
| more importantly, on the thyroid gland.
|
| I'm not talking about ionizing radiation, cancer, etc. (sure,
| there's plenty of studies on that; we know, there isn't), but on
| how those high-frequencies in close proximity may affect
| metabolism or other normal functioning -- no such thing existed
| during our evolution.
|
| The reason I mention thyroid gland is that its disfunction may
| have very bad consequences (wiki it). Cognitive, psychological,
| etc.
|
| Really would like to see studies about possible impact on that.
| Until then, just to be safe, I try not use any bluetooth
| headphones or use them wired (most have that option).
| the_only_law wrote:
| do you not use phones or any device utilizing WiFi near you
| either?
| piskov wrote:
| Not placed against my head. I try to use speakerphone or
| headset when I talk.
|
| There's a reason standards have different values for head vs
| other parts:
| https://www.apple.com/legal/rfexposure/iphone13,3/en/
|
| Also read the manual. For iphone 4 apple stated at least 15mm
| separation between the iphone and the head (5mm? nowdays).
| How many people just push it against the ear instead?
| the_only_law wrote:
| Fair enough, admittedly I'm not educated enough around RF
| to be able to tell how exactly frequency / distance / power
| can effect the human body.
|
| > I've always searched for studies about impact of the
| ultra high frequencies (GHz i.e. billions as in bluetooth)
| on the brain and, more importantly, on the thyroid gland.
| If you do have any, would you mind linking any of these
| studies. Not trying to start a fight or nitpick them, I'm
| genuinely curious.
| jtth wrote:
| I have some bad new for you about the world
| piskov wrote:
| Does that news include minimal distance between the body and
| the emmiter? Check the FCC, SAR, W/Kg etc.
|
| Not that you push cell tower or your wifi router against your
| head, isn't it?
| SirensOfTitan wrote:
| I've had tinnitus since I was a teenager. It's never bothered me,
| and I assumed everyone had it. I don't usually notice it while
| focusing on anything else, and even sometimes use it as a
| meditation object (paying attention to the oscillations of the
| sound).
|
| I sometimes wonder how many people have it, but don't notice the
| existence of it until later into adulthood (because they're not
| putting much attention on it).
| dorchadas wrote:
| Interesting, I've never thought of using it as a meditation
| object. I might have to try that, as my tinnitus works the same
| as yours (I only notice it when it's super silent and I'm not
| working on something else)
| brody_hamer wrote:
| PSA: Don't listen to music in only one ear. It registers in your
| brain as quieter than it is, and it's an easy way to cause
| hearing loss.
| naebother wrote:
| This makes so much sense in hindsight. Like I'm conscious of
| the decision to bump up the volume, but never even thought
| about the possible damage. Thanks!
| Ancapistani wrote:
| I wonder if this could be related to the high-pitched whine that
| AirPods Pro are somewhat known for after a while?
| akersten wrote:
| I've always wanted to ask an audiologist whether "active noise
| cancelling" type technologies actually pose an auditory risk.
| They kind of have to emit the same amplitude-at-the-ear of audio
| of what they're cancelling out, right? And sure, most of the time
| the waves cancel, but maybe the algorithm gets it wrong a couple
| milliseconds at a time and - while possibly not perceptible - are
| those high peaks of audio-cancelling-sound damaging?
| maeln wrote:
| The thing is, noise cancelling is a very simple physical
| process. If it "miss" you _will_ ear it. So there is no
| invisible danger, it _cannot_ be not perceptible, either it
| cancel, or it add to the noise. The worst that ANC can do is
| add noise to the noise. Plus, most ANC focus on low frequency
| sound since they are the easiest one to cancel.
| ckemere wrote:
| This assumes that active noise cancellation doesn't introduce
| energy in audible parts of the pressure spectrum.
| stouset wrote:
| This is no more a risk than normal audio you listen to
| doing the same.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| Of course not. If your driver is trying to cancel 95dB
| and creating a harmonic then that harmonic has 100 000
| times more energy than the same harmonic when playing at
| 80dB without noise cancelation.
| NathanielK wrote:
| If you're trying to cancel out a loud 100dB+ environment,
| that means the driver needs to be blasting at at least 100dB.
|
| Any harmonic distortion in the headphones will be introduced
| relative this, as well as being in the higher frequencies
| where it's less noticable, but still may cause hearing loss.
|
| I've used ANC IEMs instead of proper hearing protection
| around loud machinery before and although it may have felt
| quieter, my ears still "rang" afterwards so I was causing
| permanent hearing damage. People who think ANC "sounds
| quieter" and use it instead of proper hearing protection (or
| just turn the music too loud) will definitely suffer hearing
| loss, though not directly because of the ANC.
|
| I am not an audiologist, but an interesting similar issue
| happens with our eyes. If you wear tinted lenses with no UV
| filter, your body will be happy that it looks darker, and
| open your iris more. Now since your iris is open more, you
| actually cause more UV damage to your eye without noticing. I
| remember this being a big story when polarized 3D movie
| glasses came out and people were keeping them on outdoors.
| trhway wrote:
| > If it "miss" you will ear it. So there is no invisible
| danger, it cannot be not perceptible
|
| not always true. Minor phase mismatch will create higher
| frequency sound. You wouldn't hear ultrasound, though how bad
| it is to have an ultrasound source in you ears i don't know.
|
| The phase mismatch can be temporal - circuitry reacting
| either a bit too fast or too slow - as well as spatial - the
| sound wave front most probably aren't parallel to the
| speakers frontal plane.
| nyanpasu64 wrote:
| A noise-cancelling system can be designed to filter out and
| not produce high-frequency sound, to not worsen the
| problem. I'm not sure if properly designed noise cancelling
| can produce increased pressures felt by any parts of the
| eardrum or ear canal or outer ear.
| kortilla wrote:
| Phase mismatch won't change frequency
| ants_a wrote:
| What is the mechanism for this? From what I remember of
| signal processing, linear combination of waves of a
| specific frequency can only result in a combined signal of
| the same frequency but different phase and amplitude.
| fortran77 wrote:
| I find active cancelling headphones to be very unpleasant. I've
| switched to custom molded in-ear monitors which do an even
| better job of eliminating external sound (musicians wear them
| on-stage to protect their hearing), sound better, and don't
| bother me the way active cancelling earphones do.
|
| I have no idea if active headphones are "bad", just that they
| make me feel very uneasy.
|
| The downside is that Custom In Ear Monitors are pricy (>
| $1000). When you have them made, you can often choose how many
| db of ambient sound attenuation you want.
| jiofih wrote:
| There is a running conspiracy theory that manufacturers found
| out about possible damage around 2018, and coincidentally all
| the popular models like the Sony WH1000 got firmware upgrades
| that perceivably downgraded the quality of ANC. I have a model
| from 2016 and can easily tell the difference from a newer one,
| now if that is the real reason or not... we'll find out in the
| coming decade.
| fauria wrote:
| This theory was brought up during a previous thread on HN by
| @novok, in response to
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22080228
|
| I wonder... would this be theoretically possible? If so, are
| there any peer-reviewed papers published?
| someonehere wrote:
| Ten years ago I was interested in buying Bose noise cancelling
| headphones. Someone warned me that they had read somewhere on
| the internet that noise cancelling creates problems with your
| hearing.
|
| At the time I couldn't find anything on Google about this, but
| I still bought the headphones anyway.
|
| Using the headphones the lingering thought of that statement
| bothered me. Using the headphones something didn't feel right.
|
| Flash forward to now, people are talking about this so I can't
| find relevant info on this without the well (Google) being
| poisoned by armchair doctors.
|
| I still feel noise cancelling is not healthy for ears.
| jiofih wrote:
| I feel like WiFi is damaging my brain /s
| vages wrote:
| These "peaks" should all be within what you are able to hear,
| because there's no reason for having the headset produce
| cancelling waves with supersonic frequencies.
|
| If you want to worry about sudden sounds, there are probably
| more dangerous sources of them out there.
| addcninblue wrote:
| That's only the produced sound, right? If the produced sound
| is at a frequency that coincides with the original sound (as
| opposed to being half a wavelength off), wouldn't it amplify
| the sound and make it up to 2x? Apologies if I misunderstood
| your comment.
| lukevp wrote:
| I am not an audiologist... but I don't think it would
| result in 2x the sound. I believe a sound originating from
| 2 sources with the same amplitude results in either phase
| cancellation or the same resulting amplitude, not 2x. This
| is similar to what happens with line arrays.
| addcninblue wrote:
| I don't think so? This is classic wave interference
| right?
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_interference
| spockz wrote:
| This is anecdotal but I do feel a sense of pressure when using
| the Bose QC35. This pressure lasts for 30-60m when I've used
| them all day. I also have my ears popping after using them.
| thomasqm wrote:
| I noticed the same. Disabling or lowering noise cancellation
| in-app fixed everything.
| Ekaros wrote:
| I too feel it. Then again it might make sense that even if we
| don't hear it, the pressure is still there. As conservation
| of energy. After all active noise cancelling is destructive
| interference. Which has funny meaning that the energy is
| actually doubled. As we produce noise of equal power but
| opposite phase. Now does the energy end up in your ear or the
| headphone or outside? Or is it divided between these.
| Baeocystin wrote:
| The energy is dissipated as heat in the speaker coils.
| Energy is removed from the air. Think of it as using brakes
| to slow down a car. Yes, energy is consumed to do so
| (that's why the rotors get hot), but the car doesn't have
| 'hidden' energy, just because it was both accelerated, then
| decelerated. It really is at rest. The energy it embodied
| while in motion has been converted into other forms.
| jiofih wrote:
| This is one the most popular topics in the Sony vs Bose war.
| For reasons I haven't seen any explanation for, Sony
| headphones have much less of that vacuum feeling.
| Cu3PO42 wrote:
| Anecdotally I strongly agree. I notice no such feeling at
| all when using my WH1000-XM3, but it's very perceivable
| when wearing the QC35 or QC25.
|
| I have tinnitus, but I've had it for way longer than I've
| been using noise cancelling headphones or in-ear earbuds.
| ryanmarsh wrote:
| Yes. This can cause sinus issues.
| ryanmarsh wrote:
| Yes they cause a number of problems. I experience nasty sinus
| headaches after prolonged use in loud environments (where the
| speaker driver is having to match the high amplitude of
| external noise).
| Someone wrote:
| Unless the active noise cancelling gets it spectacularly wrong,
| the high peaks won't be higher than the peaks in the to-be-
| cancelled noise.
|
| So, you'd have to argue that short, sudden peaks are more
| damaging than continuous sounds. There is adaptation to sound
| volume (https://asa.scitation.org/doi/10.1121/1.1906477), but I
| think you'd need more than that.
| Maxburn wrote:
| Mistakes in the cancelling might make peaks outside of human
| audible ranges that cause problems? I'm speculating here but
| wondering if anyone is looking into this.
| briefcomment wrote:
| EMFs and other waves so close to sensitive biological parts seems
| unwise. I haven't switched out my iPhone 6 because I trust the
| headphone jack.
| Avery3R wrote:
| Wired headphones use an electromagnet to move the speaker too,
| they create EMFs just as powerful...
| briefcomment wrote:
| https://besynchro.com/blogs/blog/why-i-stopped-using-
| apple-s...
|
| https://emfacademy.com/airpods-radiation-safe/
| gabagool wrote:
| Is this actually the AirPods?
|
| Many people get tinnitus. Many people have AirPods. Could this be
| correlation not causation?
|
| Does anyone more knowledgeable know the details of how AirPods
| (or similar) could cause tinnitus?
| faitswulff wrote:
| That's what I was wondering. ANC might just make tinnitus more
| obvious.
| eznzt wrote:
| Yep. I have tinnitus and when I enable ANC all I hear is
| tinnitus... as expected
| steve_adams_86 wrote:
| This was what I wondered too. When I'm using good ANC, I can
| hear my body really well. It's like when you go under water
| and suddenly hear those sounds instead of terrestrial sounds
| - ANC is like going in my body rather than under water,
| though.
| sjg007 wrote:
| One thing people who have tinnitus should do is get their blood
| pressure checked.
|
| https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/tinnitus/symp...
| jancsika wrote:
| I want to be part of a forum where these are the pre-requisites:
|
| * wear a mask and social distance with anyone outside your bubble
| during a pandemic
|
| * don't put shit in your ears unless advised by a doctor to do so
|
| * if the sounds at a concert are so loud as to be uncomfortable
| to you, leave
| rhexs wrote:
| I've had tinnitus my entire life and think my case is genetic.
| There was a brief period in my life where I started reading about
| it and got pretty stressed I could hear it while trying to sleep.
| That compounded in on itself and it had me worried for a while.
| Eventually started meditating, stopped really caring, and never
| think about it anymore. Every now and then I'll hear it, but I
| can focus on my breathing and just get back to life. If I focus,
| sure, it's always there, but why bother?
|
| From what I understand some people can get very loud cases. I'm
| not sure how I'd deal with that.
|
| Daily user of airpods for years, and no changes to my tinnitus.
| salex89 wrote:
| Same here. I think I have it as long as I can remember. At a
| few points in my life it was slightly "noisier" but I think it
| was some kind of ear infection (once confirmed) or debris. In a
| very quiet room I would hear it, and if I investigate online I
| only get very anxious. It might be related to sinus issues I
| also have.
|
| But what helped me with those other issues (like itchy ears) is
| to listen to my doctor (no pun intended) to "forget" I have
| ears. Only wash the outer most part of the ear and leave it to
| do it's part. Wax, although unappealing, is nothing bad and is
| actually protective. I cleanse it with a hydrogen and olive oil
| spray mixture from the pharmacy every few months.
| vages wrote:
| What is the hypothesis here? Do these earplugs have some hidden
| power compared to other Bluetooth headsets that gives people
| tinnitus?
| ckemere wrote:
| Active noise cancellation?
| monopoledance wrote:
| Other earplugs could have the same issue, but cases are
| distributed over a wider range of distinct support cases.
|
| Maybe this isn't down to something obvious with the audible
| sounds, but interference, or amplification of some other thing
| the Airpods radiate. See old mattresses picking up radio
| signals.
|
| Maybe it's a hit-piece on the Apple stock.
|
| Maybe this is just numbers and chance.
|
| I wouldn't straight dismiss it, since it's not exactly
| unbelievable and Apple has a history of delivering innovation
| without paying due diligence to/testing the not UI details.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| There aren't actually 600+ reports in here, as the headline
| (currently) suggests. It appears over 600 people have pressed the
| "I have this question, too" button, but the number of people
| posting reports is much smaller.
|
| Keep in mind that Apple sells a massive number of AirPods. On the
| order of 100,000,000 units per year. The prevalence of tinnitus
| is estimated to be in the range of 10% of the population.
|
| It's also possible to impact earwax against the eardrum when
| inserting anything into your ear, Airpods or otherwise. Earwax
| compacted against the ear can worsen or modulate tinnitus. That
| would be my most likely explanation for any sudden-onset tinnitus
| following earbud use.
|
| Source: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-
| conditions/tinnitus/symp....
| deanclatworthy wrote:
| I just had my ears cleaned and had a clump of ear wax around
| the size of a kidney bean come out. Quite frankly I was
| horrified but had had suspicions about hearing issues in the
| prior weeks.
|
| The nurse essentially has an angled syringe that they use to
| repeatedly spray warm water at the wax until it's dislodged.
| It's not a nice sensation but tolerable.
|
| After the procedure was done, the nurse had asked if I
| regularly had in ear headphones or earplugs - which was the
| case. So be aware of this issue.
| tptacek wrote:
| The first time this happened to me it was so profound it made
| me question the nature of my reality. I left the doctors
| office slightly nauseous and with bionic super-hearing.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| To make matters more complicated, there are reports of
| chronic tinnitus being reported after earwax (aka cerumen)
| removal: https://www.tinnitusjournal.com/articles/chronic-
| tinnitus-re...
|
| It's a complicated topic, though, because many people first
| notice their tinnitus because they start paying attention to
| their ears for some reason, such as an earwax removal
| procedure, or using noise-cancelling headphones which lower
| the noise floor so much as to make tinnitus obvious over the
| reduced noise floor.
| underwater wrote:
| No joke, I read this comment and realised my ears are
| ringing.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| It's a very real phenomenon.
|
| Now imagine if you had inserted air-cancelling earbuds
| that reduced background noise to levels well below
| ambient. The ringing would feel even louder.
|
| Tinnitus sufferers hate isolation tanks for this reason.
| Background noise masks tinnitus quite well, so
| eliminating it makes tinnitus subjectively worse.
| RHSeeger wrote:
| And then go into one of those noise cancelling rooms, and
| the only sounds you can hear are your blood pumping
| through your body and the tinnitus ringing.
| mmaunder wrote:
| Nope. This is a real problem. I own the AirPods Pro, older
| version and the newer Max. Immediate onset of tinnitus when
| using pro. Went away after I stopped. Extensive use of the Max
| and regular AirPods don't produce the same. Never had tinnitus.
| I also use AKG studio headphones, and I've had ultimate ears
| custom moulded for me by an audiologist for on stage use. I've
| also used a hell of a lot of other audio gear for on stage
| performance, production, phone calls and casual listening with
| no tinnitus or other effects.
|
| Trust me when I tell you that this is the tip of the iceberg
| and may result in a massive lawsuit over permanent hearing
| damage. I avoid AirPods Pro like the plague now.
|
| I posted this 3 months ago:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24805366
| jiofih wrote:
| Well, half of the reports in the forum thread are for _other
| models_ , not only the AirPods Pro, including the original
| AirPods causing tinnitus..
| croutonwagon wrote:
| Correct me if im wrong. But tinnitus doesnt come and go. Its
| something you have or you dont, and once you have it, its
| there and will only get worse as more damage accumulates.
|
| https://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/tinnitus
|
| I have it, mostly from hunting without ear pro. I dont always
| notice it, but its always there. Its usually mostly
| noticeable when im going to bed at night,when scuba diving,
| or when on a plane and I havent cleared by ears.
|
| OR if/when i have headphones that create a seal in my ear,
| like the silicon earbuds that create, which is why you can
| hear yourself chewing/swallowing. Its a main reason i don't
| wear those types of earphones.
|
| Tinnitus is always there, its permanent. But it just may be
| noticeable under certain conditions or circumstances.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| Tinnitus is simply the perception of sound when no actual
| sound is present.
|
| There are many different sub-categories of tinnitus,
| including the type you describe that results from permanent
| hearing damage.
|
| However, there are other causes of tinnitus that can come
| and go, or be worsened by different conditions. Some people
| have tinnitus that changes volume by clenching their jaw,
| for example.
|
| Classic subjective tinnitus is thought to be similar to
| phantom limb syndrome, where the patient experiences
| sensory inputs that are not actually present.
|
| There is even a category called Objective Tinnitus, which
| is tinnitus that an external observer can hear (with the
| right tools). This is usually caused by strange blood flow
| patterns or muscle spasms.
| cko wrote:
| Wow I have chronic tinnitus and just clenched my jaw a
| few times. The pitch just got higher. Never noticed that
| before.
| bredren wrote:
| Me either. I know my normal hz but now I want to go
| figure out the clenched jaw one.
| ysavir wrote:
| I used to get the same. I was able to help it by getting
| in the habit of stretching my jaw often, and shifting my
| neutral jaw "posture". The neutral state used to be me
| keeping my jaw closed, meaning bringing my teeth together
| (not tight enough to clench, but just enough for
| contact), but I retrained myself to let my jaw "hang"
| when in a neutral state. It's helped a lot with tinnitus,
| ear pressure, jaw pain, etc.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| Tinnitus is a symptom whose cause may or may not be
| permanent. It comes and goes for me.
| wtvanhest wrote:
| Mine comes and goes. I find that if I drink from a water
| bottle with a straw, I'll get it periodically for about 24
| hours after.
| ryanmarsh wrote:
| This. Temporary ringing in the ears is not tinnitus.
|
| I think people without tinnitus are having the normal
| symptoms associated with use of noise cancelling
| headphones. Those symptoms admittedly can be pretty nasty
| including sinus headaches and ringing in the ears.
| DanBC wrote:
| https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/tinnitus/
|
| > You may hear these sounds in 1 or both ears, or in your
| head. They may come and go, or you might hear them all
| the time.
| furyofantares wrote:
| > Tinnitus is always there, its permanent. But it just may
| be noticeable under certain conditions or circumstances.
|
| I don't get this. Tinnitus is a ringing in my ears. When I
| don't notice it, it's not there.
|
| Maybe you're saying that if it's being caused by some
| physical damage in the ear then that damage is still there.
| Sure, but it doesn't seem like that's always a component.
| From your link:
|
| > Although we hear tinnitus in our ears, its source is
| really in the networks of brain cells (what scientists call
| neural circuits) that make sense of the sounds our ears
| hear. A way to think about tinnitus is that it often begins
| in the ear, but it continues in the brain.
|
| Personally, I develop tinnitus any time I take a vacation,
| or if I'm consistent with meditation practice. But when my
| brain is instead constantly active, it's totally absent.
| croutonwagon wrote:
| You are describing scenarios where it's noticeable. It's
| like saying if a tree falls in the woods and no one is
| there.
|
| However my point is, just because some may become aware
| of their tinnitus when wearing say...AirPods Pro, that
| doesn't mean they are the cause. I would notice it with
| those just as I would with the silicon earbuds that come
| with Roku remotes. But don't notice it with my regular
| AirPods.
|
| There are times it's worse for me. Like when I'm stressed
| and times it's suppressed, like when my adrenaline is
| pumping. And there are times when it's more noticeable,
| like when it's dark and quiet and my primary senses are
| dampened.
|
| But regardless I would be part of that % of the
| population that has tinnitus.
|
| And just because it's noticeable with x device doesn't
| mean that's the cause.
| RHSeeger wrote:
| > When I don't notice it, it's not there.
|
| It's there, you're just not noticing it. It may be more
| correct to say "When I don't notice it, it's not a
| problem". A bad analogy might be the noise of cars at
| night if you live in a city. Eventually, you get to the
| point where you don't notice it most of the time; it's
| not a problem. That doesn't mean the noise isn't there,
| just that it's not a problem for you.
|
| Tinnitus is the damage and noise it causes. This can be
| annoying, but the fact that it's not annoying sometimes
| doesn't mean it's not there; you're just ignoring it.
|
| Caveat: It is possible to damped/stop the noise caused by
| tinnitus for periods of time. Generally, this is done by
| "distracting" your brain in some way.
| Maxburn wrote:
| As someone with tinnitus and just got Airpods Pro two days
| ago this news disturbs me. I don't want it to get worse.
|
| I'm wondering if this is caused by ultrasonics? Someone must
| have measured these somewhere...
| ehsankia wrote:
| In general, wouldn't listening to any headphone/earphone at a
| very high volume (which happens very often when you're
| listening in a loud environment like in the subway) eventually
| cause tinnitus? I know on android there's actually a specific
| warning about this if you go above a certain volume. What
| specifically about AirPods would cause this that other earbuds
| wouldn't?
| codazoda wrote:
| And to flip that again, wouldn't having anything in ear ear
| dampen the noise of trains and such to actually help your
| ears?
|
| I rode a diesel electric locomotive commuting daily for about
| 8 years. These machines are very, very loud.
| Delk wrote:
| Maybe, if the noise from outside the earbuds is loud
| enough, and the earbuds are blocking at least some of that.
| But even if the earbuds block some of the outside noise,
| some of it is still going to get through, and that makes
| hearing the music harder and makes people want to crank up
| the music volume.
| cellularmitosis wrote:
| Only if it creates a seal.
| bluescrn wrote:
| The lack of any real seal/isolation with the hard plastic
| of the non-Pro AirPods may lead to people turning the
| volume up even further.
|
| I've certainly found myself turning mine up quite high
| when listening to audiobooks while walking (with
| background traffic noise)
| Applejinx wrote:
| It takes a lot more than just that to really isolate. I
| use Remote Audio HN-7506: physical mass plays a part.
| Those are heavy, have gel earcups that are physically
| solid and bulky, and clamp really hard on your head.
| Earbuds aren't physically big enough and can't produce a
| rigid enough seal to compare... at least not AirPod style
| ones.
|
| I've not worked with rigid, custom-molded in-ears.
| Something like that might be enough of a barrier, but
| remember if sound waves can physically move the earphone
| against the seal, that's going to be sound leakage. The
| Remote Audio cans aren't designed for comfort, they're
| designed to control sound pressures that'd instantly
| wreck your eardrums, like high-caliber nearby gunfire for
| extended periods. The headphone drivers are literally an
| afterthought, added by a separate company if I remember
| correctly.
| ehsankia wrote:
| It dampens the sound of the train, but people generally end
| up boosting the volume of the music to the highest level it
| goes on the phone, and that can cause issues long term.
| Blocking one sound doesn't help anything if you're
| replacing it with an equally (if not more) loud sound.
| Applejinx wrote:
| Absolutely. Pete Townshend's deaf in one ear and has severe
| tinnitus, and he doesn't blame Marshall stacks (or even the
| still louder Hiwatt amps he actually used), he blames
| headphones in the studio.
|
| It's a very serious thing and it's dead simple to produce
| dangerous loudnesses, that close to the eardrum. What I ended
| up doing for tracking drums and loud things, is investing in
| some heavy isolation headphones, Sony drivers in the same
| kind of heavy tight enclosures used for ear protection at gun
| ranges. They're pricey, but they work.
|
| Otherwise, you're still getting close to the sound pressure
| levels of whatever drums or amps you're playing, and then
| you're trying to turn up the backing tracks in your
| headphones to be enough louder than that, so you can hear
| what you're working on. And that's super dangerous.
|
| Same thing with music to drown out noisy subway rides or what
| have you. You'll go deaf. Extra fast.
| 3327 wrote:
| Keep in mind 600 is a high number, the barrier to discovery,
| association, research, reporting is pretty high.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| The massive volume of Airpods sold multiplied by the high
| number of hours used by each customer should surface these
| issues quickly due to scale alone.
|
| 600 out of 200,000,000-300,000,000 units sold is a reported
| incidence of around 0.0002%.
|
| It's possible that earbud usage has some negative effects in
| certain people due to earwax impaction or changing pressure
| in the inner ear, but Apple may be getting the blame because
| they're the only vendor operating with such large market
| share.
| monopoledance wrote:
| Tho, you don't compare it to the absolute number of units
| sold, but to the typical engagement in the support forum.
| How many people would even make the connection between
| Airpods and tinnitus? Same with the dead M1 macbooks and
| USB-C hubs. I agree the "600" isn't exactly science, but
| your argument isn't either.
| [deleted]
| echelon wrote:
| Even so, I find it hard to outright dismiss claims of earbuds
| causing damage.
|
| Tinnitus can be a lifelong condition and deserves
| investigation.
|
| It already seems like a platitude to tell folks not to listen
| at peak volume for extended periods of time. It'd be
| interesting to see if there are common behaviors, such as use
| at max volume, reported amongst those affected.
| airpppp2 wrote:
| Most of the posts there appear to be about AirPods Pro -- which
| have ANC. FWIW, I have only ever used the regular AirPods (1st
| and 2nd gen) for hours on end every day for years and have no
| issues with them or tinnitus.
| RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote:
| Studies have shown that the prevalence of tinnitus in a
| population likely ranges from 5%-30%[0]. Looking at sales figures
| for AirPods, 50 million users would be a very conservative
| estimate. Given those numbers 600+ reports is not very
| convincing.
|
| 0.
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5812683/#S8titl...
| mattlondon wrote:
| Anecdotal but I have experienced similar with QC35s. Wear them
| for a bit for meetings etc (not loud) and tinnitus is noticeable
| when in bed that evening. Don't use them for a few days and
| tinnitus is not noticeable. It certainly feels like there is a
| definite correlation.
|
| I assume the ANC is still pumping in a lot of frequencies that do
| not get 100% cancelled-out, but are outside of my hearing range
| so I do not notice them in the "silence" but which is hammering
| my physical ear bits with audio energy.
| finger wrote:
| I use QC35 II and have noticed the same issue. I use mine at
| very low volumes (max 10%), sometimes even without any audio
| but my tinnitus is much more noticeable after using noise
| cancellation. The difference is large enough that I have
| decided to minimize my use of the ANC.
|
| For me the ANC is audible when used without audio, but I
| imagine the ears get stimulated whether you can perceive it or
| not.
| [deleted]
| enaaem wrote:
| There also seems to be a correlation between Tinnitus and neck
| tension. Wearing headphones definitely adds some extra load to
| your neck. Perhaps you could determine the cause by wearing the
| headphone and not turning it on.
| nikolay wrote:
| They do! Just like all earbuds. Probably I'm the only modern
| human who's never stuck these things in my ear canals. I'm sure
| the damage goes beyond tinnitus.
| ctdonath wrote:
| Blasting audio in a noisy environment for hours can cause
| tinnitus, AirPods included and not exclusive. Trust me.
|
| Another case of "OMG Apple!" click bait.
| anonuser123456 wrote:
| This is my thought too. I have another brand of ear buds, and
| even at the lowest level setting it's a little loud for me. But
| the average Joe just jams them in their ear and sets the volume
| to down out a lawnmower. And then is surprised when they get
| hearing damage?
| monopoledance wrote:
| Do you assume the average Joe is that much dumber than you?
| qbasic_forever wrote:
| Tinnitus is one of many symptoms many long haul COVID-19
| sufferers complain about. Just as an anecdote Dr. Drew Pinsky was
| ill with COVID-19 around Christmas and complained about severe
| tinnitus as a result of his infection. So I'd be a little careful
| trying to draw sweeping conclusions about tinnitus right now
| without trying to account for and control the pandemic over the
| last year.
| jamesu wrote:
| I'm not surprised given mine seem to play notification sounds at
| FULL BLAST.
| mmaunder wrote:
| This really is a thing. I mentioned it here 3 months ago:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24805366
|
| It's the AirPods Pro specifically. I have not experienced this
| with the regular AirPods or the Max. Never had tinnitus, got it
| immediately when using Pro and went away immediately when I
| stopped using them.
| philshem wrote:
| Some other comments in this thread better describe it, but a
| ringing in your ears _that goes away_ is not tinnitus.
| matt_oriordan wrote:
| Amusingly as I read this my tinnitus is hugely amplified and
| unescapedly present. I have also feared this onset last year may
| have been caused by my AirPods. Sadly I am unwilling to draw that
| conclusion based on hundreds of people reporting this issue. If
| 1,000 people reported getting heartburn after buying AirPods,
| we'd laugh at the stupidity of this ridiculous correlation. I
| want my tinnitus to go and I want to blame Apple. I won't thought
| ugh unless a clinical study is carried out.
| tommaho wrote:
| 20+ year tinnitus sufferer here, and recent owner of AirPods Pro.
| I can deal with the condition well enough, mostly by distraction,
| but just last week stumbled upon a supposed audio treatment on
| Spotify.
|
| I gave it a listen and sure enough it seemed to diminish the
| tinnitus while playing. For the three or so days afterward,
| though, I experienced the worst and most piercing spell of
| ringing I can recall. Never again.
|
| Im now curious about research in therapeutic use of headphones
| and related manipulative technologies. They're clearly capable of
| doing _something_.
|
| Any connection here would be interesting.
| monopoledance wrote:
| Have you tried this "finger tapping trick"?
|
| IIRC you press your ears shut with one or two fingers on each
| hand, and then tap with another finger on top of the pressing
| one. This should make an almost uncomfortable, punching, loud
| noise. Or maybe shut your ears with the heel of your hand and
| then use your fingers to tap on the back of your head.
| Forgotten how long you supposed to do it. Maybe a minute? The
| idea is to safely "overload" the hearing apparatus, pushing it
| into "self-protection mode", but allowing it to relax in the
| off-beat phase. For many people this seems to enable them to
| easily achieve a temporary period of peace from symptoms.
|
| Loud white noise seems to do something similar.
|
| I assume this breaks the perceptual feedback and offers the
| brain a chance to expect something else, before it rediscovers
| the chronic noise again.
| tommaho wrote:
| No luck with that method for me. Wtf anecdata: I've had about
| 24 hours of peace from this my adult life and the only thing
| I could ever attribute that silence to was that it followed
| some random supermarket probiotics I started taking, for no
| good reason than it was a new fad and I wanted to see if
| anything would happen. That was apparently a one time deal,
| no repeats.
|
| I can usually ignore or distract it away. Until I'm reminded
| of it by articles like these and it tries to consume me.
| monopoledance wrote:
| Sorry, you stuck with this so far. I think for most people,
| it fades away over the years. Luckily my episode of noise
| faded and was probably triggered by some lifestyle change
| at the beginning of the pandemic. However, I also have
| visual snow and think my brain just isn't very good at
| hiding its inner workings from me, may be just a matter of
| attention, rather than some "somatic" defect. I think the
| fact, you had a period of absence is promising and worth
| exploring and playing around.
| akvadrako wrote:
| This certainly works for me and lots of people, but the fix
| only lasts a few minutes.
| monopoledance wrote:
| I think it's valuable, because it may prevent people going
| all-in van Gogh style. Sometimes it's enough to know there
| _is_ another experience to your case possible, even if it
| 's only ever a moment of different.
| therealasdf wrote:
| I use noise cancelling headphones and I think tinnitus becomes
| noticeable because of the noise cancellation rather than it being
| caused by it. Usually my environment has noises that make it
| harder to notice that I have tinnitus.
| ryanmarsh wrote:
| The best noise cancelling ear muffs you can find are for
| shooters, such as Motorola ComTac. The muffs passively block all
| noise and instead use a speaker/mic to mirror outside sounds (or
| audio devices) at an acceptable volume.
| Ekaros wrote:
| They don't cancel sound they attenuate it. For best effect
| using both muffs and plugs is possible. That would be the
| preferable solution for ear protection in noisy environment.
| Havoc wrote:
| Decidedly speculative, but when Apple released that firmware
| update which caused people complained it had weakened the ANC
| effect there was talk of it being a response to this.
|
| ...then again was just a theory based on precisely zero hard
| facts.
| [deleted]
| carlosrg wrote:
| All earplugs or headphones, whatever they are in-ear or not, can
| give tinnitus. You're blasting loud sounds directly to your ear.
| I don't understand why this is on the front page.
| jlnthws wrote:
| Not specific to AirPods: I've had the same issue before with Bose
| Quiet Comfort 25. After using noise cancelling a few hours for a
| few days I was having this high pitch issue for a day or two. So
| not a permanent tinnitus (for me), still doesn't sound good.
| sneak wrote:
| Another theoretical explanation: your tinnitus is always there,
| but you're not normally in extremely quiet places, and the
| quiet from the ANC lets you notice it better.
| finger wrote:
| I had a similar experience long before I got a real tinnitus.
|
| I had been playing computer games countless of hours per day,
| not with any loud volumes at all and I started getting insane
| tinnitus when going to sleep. One day I stuck my head real
| close to the monitor and noticed a high pitch coil whine-like
| sound. Either the frequency range changed over time or it was
| always audible but I didn't notice it in the beginning. It
| turned out the monitor had been blasting high pitch whine all
| this time and being exposed to this barely audible loud sound
| caused me to have this crazy temporary tinnitus.
|
| A few days after getting replacing the monitor the issue was
| completely gone and I never had it again.
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