[HN Gopher] Microbial ecosystems in the mouth and gut are linked...
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Microbial ecosystems in the mouth and gut are linked to many ills
Author : aluket
Score : 297 points
Date : 2021-02-12 19:11 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.economist.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.economist.com)
| sizzle wrote:
| I'm on antibiotics for an infection right now, how badly have I
| disrupted my microbiome? How will this effect me down the line?
| genewitch wrote:
| Only some antibiotics will cause issues. If you have to take
| alternatives to any of the "cillin" family, the medical
| community at large recommends no more than 2 full treatments
| within 18 months. Anything more than that can lead to things
| like C. Diff and may require a fecal transplant or needing to
| take probiotics that a pharmacy will carry in a refrigerator up
| on their deck.
|
| I forget what the terminology is, but broad spectrum
| antibiotics are generally worse for your gut than something
| targeted, iirc.
| brigandish wrote:
| You can work to repopulate the gut through diet. Fermented
| foods like sauerkraut and kimchi, for example, the odd bit of
| green banana every now and then to reach the intestines as a
| prebiotic, and avoiding junk food, obviously. There's lots you
| can do.
|
| I made my first kimchi a couple of months and I've been making
| sauerkraut for a few years now. Even if they weren't healthy
| I'd continue, the taste is worth it! (And so much better than
| what you can buy in the shops)
|
| Most of all, don't let news like this stress you out, let it
| inspire you to a more fulfilling diet instead. Stress isn't
| going to help.
| arminiusreturns wrote:
| I had the pleasure to work with a top geneticist whose domain of
| specialty was the microbiome, and he continually insisted there
| are tons of discoveries to be made in the arena (which he and
| those researchers we sequenced for did often, from dentistry to
| studies of the monitor lizard to chrons disease, just all over in
| subjects you might not expect).
|
| Less on topic, I learned how to read scientific papers and filter
| bullshit ones (even in respectable journals) from good ones under
| his tutelage, and am forever grateful to the vast array of
| science and tech I was exposed to while supporting the tech side
| of a "every major sequencer" sequencing lab.
| domino24 wrote:
| Who did you work for? I am interested in getting more involved
| in this exact field and would appreciate any helpful direction
| :) I am digesting anything I can find on the topic, but I feel
| it is greatly underappreciated still, as I agree there is MUCH
| to be discovered.
| arminiusreturns wrote:
| I updated my profile with an email, please feel free to
| contact me there for more details.
| pazimzadeh wrote:
| > Dr Sampson has tested this hypothesis in mice. He bred a strain
| of E. coli that cannot make Curli and injected mice with it,
| while injecting others with unmodified bacteria. Those that
| received Curli-producing bacteria expressed higher levels of
| synuclein and demonstrated symptoms like involuntary rigidity
| which, when seen in people, are associated with Parkinson's
| disease. That is tantalising.
|
| These mice were mono-colonized with E. coli, whereas both mice
| and humans normally have a diverse gut flora. I colonize mice
| with E. coli containing curli all the time and the mice do not
| exhibit any rigidity or symptoms of Parkinson's. So it's
| interesting but not quite as huge of an effect as you might
| think, unless your microbial flora is really disrupted. May be
| relevant if you have an antibiotic resistant strain of E. coli
| blooming in your intestine following antibiotic treatment/some
| other disruption of your microbiota.
|
| A gut bacterial amyloid promotes a-synuclein aggregation and
| motor impairment in mice
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7012599/
| boplicity wrote:
| As someone with IBD, I really wish the hard science about
| bacteria would start to filter into actual treatments. I know
| there are possibilities there, and many patients have found
| avenues of success, but there is so much guesswork involved
| that it is very frustrating. Hopefully there will be definitive
| answers in the future. My gastroenterologist, who has quite a
| lot of training from very good schools, has absolutely nothing
| useful to say, in terms of the microbiome.
| throw345hn wrote:
| As someone with IBS, totally agree with you. I wish the
| research would trickle down into actual treatments. I have
| started following a lot of research about gut etc but very
| little of it leads to something that can mass consumed.
|
| I spent thousands of dollars on trying out medications,
| tests, visiting a number of highly trained doctors etc,
| nothing came up in tests and at the end almost all doctors
| threw their hands up and categorized my gut issues as IBS
| which is just a catchAll term for which there is no specific
| treatment other than trying out a number of things.
| fodmap wrote:
| Fellow IBS sufferer here. I understand and share your pain.
|
| There isn't any magic pill yet but until someone invents it
| I can tell you I've found great comfort following the
| FODMAP diet.
|
| I've wasted ten horrible years until I discovered that
| Monash University diet.
|
| Ten years of pain and expending.
|
| Hoping it can help you as well
| https://www.monashfodmap.com/
| genewitch wrote:
| For anyone who doesn't feel like viewing a slideshow
| website, FODMAP stands for "Fermentable Oligosaccharides
| Disaccharides Monosaccharides And Polyols"
|
| Which is basically Cereals (what make beer) onions,
| garlic, and beans; Lactose; Fructose; and at least two of
| the "Sugar Alcohols".
|
| As someone who had their gut biome wrecked by aggressive
| antibiotics, i was told i will probably have to take
| probiotics for the rest of my life, but i managed to
| track down two things that will 100% all the time cause
| pain - Garlic and Onions. I'm not entirely sure which is
| worse, but i'd wager garlic. For a long time i assumed it
| was certain types of oils, too.
|
| Basically if you're adhering to this "Low FODMAP" diet,
| you're meandering between "slow carb", "atkins", and
| several other dietary restrictions.
|
| That "fructose" one though, that's a doozy. There are
| tons of health ramifications to avoiding all of the stuff
| on the list, so if you suffer from intestinal stuff, it'd
| probably be best to experiment with each thing on the
| list (on the site) and see if it causes discomfort, how
| much, how long, etc.
| fodmap wrote:
| Anecdotally the onions are way worse for me than garlic,
| although the latter doesn't do me any favor.
|
| To anyone wanting to learn about FODMAPs, Monash
| University blog (1) helps to understand this very complex
| topic.
|
| (1) https://www.monashfodmap.com/blog/
| jodrellblank wrote:
| (I didn't downvote). For comparison, imagine you signed
| up with the username "Oracle" and posted "Fellow data
| storage sufferer here. I understand and share your pain.
| There isn't any magic pill yet but until someone invents
| it I can tell you I've found great comfort using the
| Oracle database" and a link to a "purchase Oracle" page.
|
| You might be a well-meaning person, but you're hard to
| distinguish from a bot pushing a fad diet with online
| courses, a for-pay app, a shop, "find a dietician"
| services, certifications, etc. Preying on offering hope
| to the sick and desperate is common and people are
| cynical and wary of it, and even genuine well-meaning
| people are prone to sharing dubious alternative medicine
| suggestions which they honestly believe help but aren't
| proven to do anything more than the placebo effect. If
| you were a long-standing HN commentor, you'd probably get
| more benefit of the doubt; signing up as "fodmap" to link
| to an apparently for-profit fodmap service with an
| emotional message makes it easy to assume bad faith
| astroturfing at a glance - focused username, commercial
| link, fringe/alternative/woo treatment, claims of health
| cure for incurable condition, SEO style message ("As a
| fellow sufferer, believe me, I know, I've been there,
| trust me, just one easy credit card payment").
|
| [I wrote this for your deleted comment;]
| throw345hn wrote:
| I agree with your overall message but in this case I
| would like to point out one thing - a lot of fad diets
| were first adopted by people and then researched to see
| if they are helpful where as Fodmap has been specifically
| researched for the gut and only after it has been shown
| to be helpful, its now being recommended by doctors _.
|
| _ Obviously you should talk to your doctor before
| adopting the diet. It may not provide all of the
| nutrients that your body needs and its normally only
| recommended for 3 to ~6 months. Its may also not work
| well for some variants of IBS / IBD / other gut issues
| and may even be a detriment - so talk to your doctor.
|
| Personally its been helpful for me. A lot of people also
| may not need to do fodmap and instead just do a
| elimination diet. For example you may not know it but may
| be suffering from lactose intolerance or gluten
| intolerance and so on. Probably easier to try that first
| as well.
| jodrellblank wrote:
| I don't have an "overall message"; they asked why they
| were being downvoted for sharing a genuine opinion, and I
| explained how much the comment looks like an advert. I am
| already convinced that gut microbiome affects people and
| diet affects people.
| fodmap wrote:
| I did remove my question because I understood that it
| didn't add up anything interesting to the discussion.
|
| Thank you for answering anyway. Your comment helps me to
| see why my post could be seen as not well intentioned.
| throw345hn wrote:
| Thanks, yes I have been following fodmap for years now
| and reduced my gluten intake as well and that has helped
| a bit. Although its only recommended for 3 to 6 months.
|
| I have also slowly been introducing foods I have been
| avoiding back and so far I have been able to tolerate
| them well
| fodmap wrote:
| Yes, the key is to try to have the less restrictive diet
| without the food that triggers your symptoms.
|
| About gluten, in my case I found out that it wasn't the
| problem but fructans.
| [deleted]
| mountain_peak wrote:
| Was diagnosed with IBS just after university, then
| (similarly) spent 10 years suffering and experimenting
| when I ended up switching to an ultra-low carb diet for
| unrelated reasons. Within weeks, I started to feel better
| and for the next 12 years felt great - so much so, that
| my family (wanting me to enjoy something sweet) started
| buying me "Keto-friendly" bars with < 2g of net carbs,
| but also with erythritol. That was a mistake, as within
| weeks of enjoying the bars, I was back to dealing with
| IBS. I'm six weeks into trying to undo the 'damage', and
| starting to feel a bit better, but I'd definitely advise
| people who have IBS to always be cautious with trigger
| foods - certainly the ones that personally cause them
| issues, but also others on the list.
| graeme wrote:
| Low fodmap was of enormous help to me too. For years I
| thought I had gluten issues, as most bread caused me
| trouble.
|
| Turns out every wheat product with the exception of
| sourdough wheat bread is high fodmap! I tried low fodmap
| and nearly instantly got a lot better. And I can now eat
| some fodmaps by reintroducing in lower amounts.
|
| Highly recommend anyone with ibs try this. It is
| complicated but you can get free or cheap apps that let
| you search ingredients fast to figure out what to remove.
|
| And the great part is the intolerance is quantity based.
| So, celery in a recipe? No problem. Just don't eat a
| massive amount of it. Very much unlike any kind of hard
| avoidance plan.
|
| This won't solve all issues but give it an honest shot.
| Mine has moved from seriously debilitating to minor
| inconvenience.
| fodmap wrote:
| Exactly, that have been my personal experience too.
|
| Identifying the triggers, and keeping an eye on quantity
| are the keys for me. It isn't an easy process but it
| makes a world of difference as you say.
| mancerayder wrote:
| I have IBS symptoms basically fully in times of stress,
| days on end, otherwise things are fairly normal. I wonder
| if either my understanding of IBS is false, or it's not
| biome related for me.
| throw345hn wrote:
| I suffer from IBS as well and out of all the things that
| flares up my IBS, stress is a prominent one. Reading
| research papers, its been seen that gut biome changes
| based on stress - look up gut-brain connection, theres
| been a few books written about it as well.
|
| Its a fairly new thing - from about 15 years back.
| Nowadays one of the treatments that a gastroenterologist
| could recommend if they have exhausted everything else is
| low dose anti-depressant.
|
| Key is to identify what is causing stress and treat that
| fodmap wrote:
| I agree. For me, relaxing breathing techniques help me
| when having an stress episode.
| graeme wrote:
| Check out hyperbiotics. They had a submission here a while
| back, and have both probiotic and prebiotic products. They
| were started by microbiome researchers.
|
| Also I've heard promising things about fecal transplants for
| biome restoration.
| nextos wrote:
| It's starting to filter into actual treatments. I've been
| doing research in the field of host-microbiome interactions
| for the last 8-10 years. And in the last couple of years,
| it's gone from a fringe to a mainstream topic.
|
| I know a few places in Europe where they are already doing
| fecal microbiome transplants on a daily basis. For example,
| Quadram Institute & NHS Norwich. They have had some adverse
| events, so it's not totally safe, but I think the benefits
| already outweigh the risks if it's having a significant
| impact on your quality of life.
|
| New research avenues include, for example, doing a phage-only
| transplant. And obvious things like matching donors by HLA
| haplotypes. Both should improve safety.
|
| Still, I understand progress is too slow for patients. Most
| research institutions are pretty bad at polishing,
| industrializing and translating basic theories into clinical
| benefits. They just like to churn out small papers. I have
| sometimes considered to spin off as a non-profit maybe to
| speed things up.
|
| Theories are beginning to be understood quite well. It's
| mostly about cross-reactive bacterial epitopes and self
| antigens [1]. Plus metabolites. A very complex network, but
| some epitopes are central. For example, Ro60 in Lupus or
| insulin in T1D and their corresponding bacterial mimics. With
| sufficient data, we could easily throw in a personalized
| cocktail of phages that could halt many autoimmune disorders
| and tumors with high probability. That's the vision for the
| next 10 years, I think.
|
| [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-020-0367-2
| newobj wrote:
| Excited for more research in gut health.
|
| I know HN hates to entertain any lay science, but I wonder if
| scraping my tongue, as I do with a copper scraper, is good or bad
| for your oral biome?
| basicplus2 wrote:
| I found that my bad breath was the result of eating highly
| processed food and wheat based products, once i stopped eating
| these, my bad breath vanished.
|
| No tongue scraping or brushing required.
| newobj wrote:
| FWIW, the reason I use a copper scraper is simply that copper,
| as I understand it, has antimicrobial properties, and
| consequently I would be able to get by with a less thorough
| cleaning of the scraper than something plastic or wood that's
| not single-use. I basically rinse it under heavy water and give
| it a rub with my thumb.
|
| My wife and I can both objectively report that bad breath has
| gone WAY down with the scraper. There's almost no morning
| breath now, as a matter of fact, with a scrape before bed.
| [deleted]
| abledon wrote:
| in the morning, even scraping with your hand is good since
| you're removing the dead stuff thats accumulated on your tongue
| during sleep. eating this stuff has no nutritional value and is
| considered a 'toxin' in yogic traditions.
|
| lot of those online sites are just trying to 'sell something'
| to make a living so they mandate you 'need' a metallic scraper.
| StavrosK wrote:
| Probably!
| recuter wrote:
| Indubitably!
| eth0up wrote:
| Below is an interesting bit of research which gets quite close
| to tackling your curiosity, or at least stimulating it. It
| specifically concerns oral hygiene and blood pressure, with a
| focus on nitric oxide. Tongue scraping seems beneficial, though
| there's no mention of copper. However, chlorhexidine (mouthwash
| ingredient) seems a disruptor of NO and may contribute to
| higher BP. I need to read the article myself, but a brief skim
| left a big impression.
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7589924/
|
| Or
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6406172/
|
| Edit: I deleted and reposted this comment because I found the
| article was abridged and might not be the one I remember. I
| think I've got it right this time, but if not, follow the "full
| text links". Should be interesting either way.
| sherr wrote:
| Dentists (ones I have) usually recommend brushing your tongue
| as part of your tooth brushing routine. This helps prevent bad
| breath I think, which is correlated with oral hygiene.
| perlgeek wrote:
| Several people I know have some seemingly disjoint food
| allergies, some of the attributed to lack of certain enzymes,
| some without any explanations.
|
| I'm wondering if some of the effects could be mitigated with
| sufficiently smart microbiome engineering.
| satya71 wrote:
| The evidence is weak to non-existent. I wish popular magazines
| would stop publishing these non-sense stories. At least they went
| with "linked" which is clearly saying correlation (which is not
| causation).
| DNied wrote:
| PAYWALLED
| dukeofdoom wrote:
| A while back I read that people with root canal are far more
| likely to get cancer. The reasoning being that the empty root
| canal provides a pathway for bacteria/viruses to enter into the
| body. Causing chronic infections. Which leads to cancer.
| echelon wrote:
| As a layman, this is so exciting! It feels as though we may be
| getting closer to finding a cause for a diverse set of
| neurodegenerative disorders. Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, etc.
|
| Gut and oral microbiota having influence across the blood-brain
| barrier seems so plausible. If they get into the nervous system
| and migrate, they could cause inflammation in the brain leading
| to damage over time.
|
| The immune system is incredible, and we'll no doubt find it a
| fertile ground for progress against a lot of diseases.
| wyldfire wrote:
| Do we know whether these microbes are cause or effect? On the
| bright side I'd say even if they're [only] an effect of those
| illnesses, we'd have an excellent opportunity for earlier
| diagnosis.
| dannygrannick wrote:
| Hi everyone! We're planning to submit our formal launch on Hacker
| News in a few weeks, but given this post and all of the
| discussion around it I thought I would share a quick background
| now!
|
| Bristle (bristlehealth.com) is leveraging the oral microbiome to
| pioneer oral health testing and care. We use metagenomic
| sequencing to analyze the oral microbiome from a saliva sample -
| looking at fungi, bacteria, and viruses - delivering evidence-
| based insights around oral health.
|
| We are offering an early access program
| (https://www.bristlehealth.com/pages/early-access) providing oral
| microbiome testing and consumer research reports, with
| literature-backed insights accessed through an interactive web
| app. We're charging users $50 and will only bill you when we ship
| your kit.
|
| If you're interested in learning more about your oral microbiome,
| please sign up! We literally launched yesterday and have gotten
| tons of interest based on exactly what's being discussed here.
| We're letting participants into the program in batches but will
| be turning kits around rapidly.
|
| If anyone wants to chat more feel free to reach out to
| info@bristlehealth.com. As I said, we will have a dedicated HN
| launch with lots more information in the coming weeks, but wanted
| to share given the interest and that we have this ready to go.
| hammock wrote:
| I see the ANALYSIS you provide does not use my DNA but I'm
| unclear- are you collecting my DNA? Are you saving it or
| storing it, in any form, in either physical or digital form?
| What assurances do I have that any of the labs or other
| partners you use won't do this either?
| webmobdev wrote:
| From another reply - We also will NOT be
| selling or using any of your personal genetic data without
| consent.
|
| "Genetic data" seems to imply that they do look up your DNA
| too.
| aritmo wrote:
| Genetic data is EUREUREUR.
| david_l_lin wrote:
| See Esyir's response. In short, we do NOT look up your DNA,
| and only look into microbial DNA. In fact, we do a host
| depletion step to enrich for microbial DNA prior to
| sequencing, then a following host depletion step prior to
| microbial mapping. Sequencing will inevitably pick up some
| signal from the host genome, but at such low levels, we
| cannot derive meaningful signal from the host DNA.
|
| TLDR, we do NOT use host genetic data, but cannot guarantee
| that none of that data will be stored somewhere in this
| analysis
| esyir wrote:
| There's no way to get the oral/gun microbiome using shotgun
| sequencing without also picking up human data along the way.
| The raw sequence files will contain reads mapping to the
| human genome, but those are often filtered out in subsequent
| steps of the data processing.
| david_l_lin wrote:
| Bristle CSO here. To elaborate on Esyir's reply, through
| saliva collection, we inevitably will have your DNA in the
| sample. However, our analysis selectively removes host DNA
| from the sample, enabling targeted sequencing of the oral
| microbiome. During the processing of the sample, we may
| capture some signal from the host genome. Our sequencing,
| however, captures such a low level of the host genome that we
| cannot derive any meaningful signal from host genetic data,
| and actually selectively remove that signal from the analysis
| to enrich for microbial signals.
|
| We keep your saliva sample and its molecular derivatives in
| physical form completely DEIDENTIFIED such that it cannot be
| mapped back to YOU without an encrypted key.
|
| TLDR, we do NOT use host genetic data, but cannot guarantee
| that none of that data will be stored somewhere in this
| analysis. We do not share any identifiable data with anyone.
| We do not analyze host genetic data.
| hammock wrote:
| Thanks to y'all for the elaboration
| consp wrote:
| I know it is not good HN policy to doubt your intentions
| but by emphasizing the NOT's, DEIDENTIFIED and YOU, you
| make me highly suspicious. Anonymization of data is
| difficult at best and sometimes nearly impossible so I
| would advise to publish the entire protocol if you want to
| give people assurances. The encryption key, as already
| stated, is pointless without an explanation how you use it
| and why it is employed and is otherwise just smoke and
| mirrors and no real security.
| david_l_lin wrote:
| I completely understand your hesitation around the
| anonymization of data, and will have more detail around
| how your data will be anonymizes and used on our website
| shortly.
| [deleted]
| _tom_ wrote:
| Who has the encrypted key?
|
| The statement is meaningless if you have the key.
| 867-5309 wrote:
| but sharing the key would be sharing (access to) the DNA
| koheripbal wrote:
| Will you be using samples to identify NEW microbiome
| bacteria? Or are you only identifying KNOWN bacteria?
| david_l_lin wrote:
| This is a great question! In short, there is a network
| effect with our platform. Each sample we sequence
| contributes to a database of novel bacteria, viruses, and
| fungi that we can use to discover new microbes.
| labawi wrote:
| Could we have an option of not storing biological materials
| after processing?
|
| Assuming you don't store (notable) digital host data, it
| seems much safer, in case policy / ownership were to
| change, a breach happened and/or someone was compelled to
| produce samples/data.
| david_l_lin wrote:
| Absolutely, you may request that your physical sample be
| destroyed after receiving your results. At present, we
| biobank samples in the event that the sample needs to be
| re-run.
|
| Please send us an email at info@bristlehealth.com and we
| can ensure your physical sample is destroyed post-
| sequencing.
| trash3 wrote:
| Is there a need to account for circadian rhythms in sampling,
| do you ask your customers to swab at noon or before bed, or do
| you just include this info in model training/prediction?
| david_l_lin wrote:
| At the moment, we don't account for circadian rhythms. As we
| explore some of the insights to the oral microbiome, that's
| definitely one of the avenues we'd love to dig into. We do
| ask customers to fill out a relatively detailed health
| survey, so that we can explore associations between the oral
| microbiome in health and disease.
| mariushn wrote:
| > We do ask customers to fill out a relatively detailed
| health survey, so that we can explore associations between
| the oral microbiome in health and disease.
|
| So, you're learning from customers these associations, and
| after a significant number of customers you could offer
| statistical associations to future customers?
| [deleted]
| 29athrowaway wrote:
| Is this testing service HIPAA compliant? Will you sell my data
| like 23andme does?
| dannygrannick wrote:
| Yes and no!
| WoodenChair wrote:
| I signed up. $50 to be a guinea pig... Well it will get me to
| follow where you go, which I think is interesting. Ideally this
| would already be tested in a clinical trial, so you wouldn't
| need customers to pay to be your guinea pigs, but it's a low
| enough sum that I'm willing to do it for the entertainment and
| educational value to myself.
|
| By the way, I was looking for an About page to see the team and
| couldn't find one (maybe I missed it). I found your link to
| LinkedIn and saw one of the founders went to the same college
| as me. That's cool, but I think you should have a "Team" page
| to give customers confidence. Unless none of you are medical
| researchers/biologists/doctors/etc. In that case it may
| actually detract... But surely you at least have some on your
| advisory board?
|
| Good luck and I look forward to trying out the product. I
| assume part of this might be to eventually sell my microbiome's
| genetic data, which I'm okay with. You didn't mention on the
| website (at least I didn't see it) whether the kit also
| collects cheek cells and such to get my more generalized
| genetic data. If that's the case, I may just consider it a $50
| loss and not participate.
| david_l_lin wrote:
| Thank you for participating! Co-founder and CSO here. Thanks
| for the feedback regarding the website, we're in the process
| of updating the page to improve its layout.
|
| We absolutely will not be selling your microbiome data
| without your consent, and it's something the team and I are
| quite adamant about. We also will NOT be selling or using any
| of your personal genetic data without consent. Any analysis
| and discovery will be on completely de-identified data, and
| will go toward our goal of improving health care.
|
| Thank you for supporting us, and we hope that the insights we
| provide in the early access may be valuable to you!
| greyface- wrote:
| > We absolutely will not be selling your microbiome data
| without your consent, and it's something the team and I are
| quite adamant about.
|
| Are we relying on your word on this? I have had startups
| change their mind on me on these sorts of things in the
| past. I would want some sort of assurance that my data
| remains private even if you change your mind and wish to
| make it non-private.
| rapjr9 wrote:
| What happens if the company goes bankrupt and someone
| else buys the IP including the data? Can they do whatever
| they want with the data? Without some enforceable legal
| restrictions here the data seems to be at risk.
| dannygrannick wrote:
| We follow all HIPAA requirements and de-identify our data
| accordingly. That said, as a company we are committed to
| patient privacy and I'm interested in hearing about the
| experiences you've had in the past with companies
| changing their minds. If you're open to it, email us at
| info@bristlehealth.com and I'll follow up with you to
| discuss!
| dannygrannick wrote:
| Regarding the "about" page - our website is brand new and
| we're building out more information to coincide with
| announcements over the coming weeks. One of those is around
| our advisory board and another is relevant to your comment
| on clinical trials. Our team has backgrounds in genomics on
| both the research and commercial side! I worked at Illumina
| and ONT myself - other co-founders come from companies
| including Genentech, Twist, etc.
| 29athrowaway wrote:
| Is customer data protected by HIPAA?
| dannygrannick wrote:
| Yes! We are 100% HIPAA compliant
| astura wrote:
| You didn't answer the question asked, you answered a
| different question.
|
| The question that was asked was if the customer data you
| collect is "protected by HIPAA," not if you choose to be
| "HIPAA compliment."
|
| In other words - does the law (HIPAA) _require_ you to
| handle customer data a certain way? Are you a "covered
| entity" under HIPAA?
|
| I don't know much about your business, but I'm going to
| presume you are NOT a covered entry and HIPAA does NOT
| apply. I'm going to presume that because HIPAA is not a
| generic medical privacy law (even though people think it
| is), it applies to only "covered entities," which are -
| "Health Care Providers[1]", "Health Plans", and "Health
| Care Clearinghouses." You don't appear to be any of
| those, nobody claims to be providing any medical
| services, and you even provide a disclaimer that you are
| not providing medical services. - aka "just for funsies."
|
| A useful rule of thumb is the "I" in HIPAA stands for
| insurance - if insurance is NOT involved HIPAA probably
| doesn't apply.
|
| So I think your statement "Yes, we are 100% HIPAA
| compliment" was intentionally misleading.
|
| [1] but only if they transmit information electronically
| in connection with a transaction for which HHS has
| adopted a standard
| Cro_on wrote:
| Unless the question was answered in the first sentence
| ('Yes!' being one of the few single word sentences
| possible in English). In this perspective, the second
| sentence gives extra information instead of
| 'intentionally misleading'.
| astura wrote:
| Then they need to provide additional information as to
| why they are considered a "covered entity" under HIPAA,
| because it is NOT obvious from their website why HIPPA
| would apply and the answer I was replying to appeared to
| be very mealy-mouthed based on the information given.
|
| If they have additional information they'd like to share,
| I'd very much like to hear it.
| astura wrote:
| I'm looking forward to replies from dannygrannick and
| david_l_lin if they are a "covered entity" under HIPAA,
| because that was the question asked, and hasn't been
| answered yet.
| devlopr wrote:
| Why the focus on oral? Ubiome had a great product that worked
| on fecal sample to determine what bacteria's are present in the
| intestines.
|
| Do you see your company expanding into that area?
| david_l_lin wrote:
| Our core technology is based around the oral microbiome for a
| number of key reasons.
|
| 1. decades of research have shown causal relationships
| between the oral microbiome and preventable gum disease. 2.
| the oral microbiome is much lower in diversity than the fecal
| microbiome, granting the opportunity for the development of
| relatively low-cost diagnostics that leverage the microbiome.
| 3. new and exciting studies have shown correlations between
| the oral microbiome and a number of systemic health
| indications, which we hope to continue to uncover with our
| platform.
|
| If you're interested in learning more, please drop your email
| at the bottom of our home page at bristlehealth.com to
| receive our newsletter!
| dannygrannick wrote:
| Beautifully said! Also feel free to reach out to
| info@bristlehealth.com with any specific questions - we'll
| get back to you.
| robbyt wrote:
| Classic startup idea validation one-pager. I'm sure you'll get
| at least a few people signing up, but I don't think this is a
| good measure if people are really interested. Final price, look
| of the product, and the ability to market b2c matter much more.
|
| 23's success is more based on the execution of their product
| and marketing. They already have proven for you, there are
| customers in this space. Now you just need to build something
| great.
| dannygrannick wrote:
| Thanks! We're continuing to develop and iterate the final
| product, and we hope that this program will provide some
| early user feedback. Current and new users will have their
| reports updated as we make changes and add new features.
| markdown wrote:
| Nothing about the mouth biome on HN, ever... and then a day
| before your launch, this article appears?
|
| I feel like I'm being played.
| nmfisher wrote:
| The Economist is always published on Saturday, and is
| regularly linked on HN.
|
| I think more likely they timed their launch to coincide with
| the Economist article and then someone unrelated just
| happened to link the article just before their intended date.
| dannygrannick wrote:
| Would love to say we thought this far ahead but this was a
| total coincidence through a text from a friend who is avid
| on HN
| [deleted]
| explore wrote:
| 1573 results: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&pr
| efix=false&qu...
| david_l_lin wrote:
| If only we were that clever
| lux wrote:
| US only or will you ship to other places too (in Canada
| myself)?
| david_l_lin wrote:
| I'm 90% sure we can do CAN. Sign up for early access through
| our website: bristlehealth.com, and we'll reach out when your
| kit is ready!
| kuxv wrote:
| What about Europe?
| david_l_lin wrote:
| I can't make any immediate guarantees around sending our
| kit to Europe. However, we do not collect payment until
| after we ship the kit, so please sign up on our early
| access page to hold a spot in line. If/when we reach
| critical mass we may be able to onboard customers in
| Europe.
| dannygrannick wrote:
| Ditto to David and we expect to have info on this in the
| next few days
| dannygrannick wrote:
| Hi everyone - looking into shipping capabilities. CA should
| be doable but will have to look into Europe further and will
| follow up tomorrow! We really appreciate the widespread
| interest!
| PixelPaul wrote:
| There is no country field and no mention of country
| limitations. Can I signup from Australian?
| david_l_lin wrote:
| Apologies for the lack of clarity! I can't make any immediate
| guarantees around sending our kit to Australia. However, we
| do not collect payment until after we ship the kit, so please
| sign up on our early access page to hold a spot in line.
| If/when we reach critical mass we may be able to onboard
| customers from Australia.
| cnmp wrote:
| Ah, that explains the microbio* submarines in the past 3 years.
| bsanr2 wrote:
| Adding to the anecdotes:
|
| Around summer 2014, I began to focus very heavily on "bulking"
| for strength training. This was about a year after I'd developed
| very obvious symptoms of lactose intolerance and had had to cut
| uncultured dairy out of my diet. My meals were not diverse: fruit
| and Greek yogurt in the morning; chicken cooked in Indian sauces,
| roasted potatoes, and some green (usually broccoli or spinach)
| for lunch and dinner, along with protein shakes and a pre-workout
| carb load (such as PB+J). Drinks were water, orange juice, and
| kefir.
|
| That winter, my health collapsed. I started developing skin
| abscesses, and the antibiotics I received for a particularly bad
| episode caused me to develop a C diff infection. I had to
| severely limit my food intake, as too much or certain kinds would
| cause me to develop cramps, listlessness, and diarrhea, and lost
| about 40 pounds in 3 months. My body could not hold onto food
| long enough to process it correctly and I developed symptoms of
| incomplete digestion, and especially of fat indigestion (symptoms
| improved with anti-diarrheals).
|
| The next 3 years were a long battle to try to get back to normal.
| Store-bought probiotics didn't help; digestive enzymes did.
| Things didn't improve noticeably until after I began eating
| homemade sauerkraut, and especially after I began taking enzymes
| on an empty stomach (I was told that this might help to break
| down some structure that might harbor unhelpful bacteria).
|
| Eventually, I was able to return to most foods without issue,
| until last year, when a prediabetes scare prompted to try a
| ketogenic diet (this also seemed to solve a lingering issue, of
| multiple daily and urgent movements).
|
| All this to say... I don't really know what's going on. I've
| found some things that seem to work, but I could only guess at
| why, based on the timing of my downturns and upturns and of my
| interventions.
|
| I've spent literal days over this period trying to understand why
| my body is acting and reacting the way that it does, and
| following the (often slapdash) advice of people who target the
| microbiome as the source of ill or good health has sadly seemed
| to be the most efficacious route. However, I'm still not able to
| achieve the level of well-being I'd like to, and I attribute that
| largely to the dearth of hard facts available relating to diet
| and the human microbiome. Over the course of this journey, I've
| seen more and more professionals begin to take the issue
| seriously, but not nearly the level or quality of research we'd
| hope to see with such a fundamental topic. Here's to seeing that
| corrected before I have to punch whatever card this adulthood of
| gut trouble has been leading to.
| neonate wrote:
| https://archive.is/qaOG1
| inamberclad wrote:
| Seems like a good plug for a startup I used to work for. I'm no
| longer associated with them aside from my personal friendships
| but they're creating a pretty cool oral health product:
| https://freshhealth.com/
| happyconcepts wrote:
| Someone please enlighten me as to why in 2021 DOCTORS and
| DENTISTS are still completely separate in the healthcare system?
|
| Danny I sincerely hope your team's efforts will accelerate the
| bridging of this divide.
| CTOSian wrote:
| so they can milk people's PS$EUR
| zaptrem wrote:
| Insurance companies pushing a narrative to avoid paying for it?
| Complete guess.
| danparsonson wrote:
| Where I come from, you'll find orthodontists in hospitals along
| with all the other doctors. If you're referring to the dentists
| whose job is to clean you up regularly and tell you to floss
| more often, I guess they're a distinct profession from GPs
| because that part of the body benefits from regular specific
| maintenance by a trained professional, but they're still
| doctors.
| happyconcepts wrote:
| Here in the US they offer health insurance and dental
| insurance as two completely separate programs. They are
| separated enough that it strikes me as remarkable.
| andrewzah wrote:
| This is something that I've been thinking about lately.
|
| Last ~May, I spontaneously developed rashes exactly in the middle
| of the back of my hands at the same time. This lead to skin
| sensitivity and ultimately skin rashes across my body.
|
| At this point I've visited my dermatologist what, 20 times? In
| addition to my general physician, bloodwork, etc. Biopsies and
| bloodwork and other tests don't show anything abnormal, asides
| from excessively high IgE - 600 and now about 1,000. I recently
| started on Dupixent but it's too early to tell if it's helping or
| not.
|
| There doesn't seem to be any clear indicator, so I'm wondering if
| I ate something + stress, which affected my gut microbiome. My
| family has no history of this sort of issue and it seriously
| started about overnight.
| clumsysmurf wrote:
| I'm going through something similar, but I haven't visited a
| doctor ... yet. But its getting out of control. I was reading
| that itching from eczema drives people to suicide, just like
| dry eyes ... things one would only assume as minor discomforts,
| until you realize you can't sleep any more, causing a downward
| spiral.
|
| Just recently, I found this in medicalXpress
| https://medicalxpress.com/news/2021-01-acute-eczema-patients...
|
| Which you may want to check out because of IgE. It goes into
| how typical antihistamines don't work because the itch signal
| is from a different pathway, etc.
|
| Also this week I found out about this book
| https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/588965/clean-by-jam...
|
| from this article
|
| https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/what-happens-if-you-stop...
|
| "James Hamblin, physician, staff writer for The Atlantic and
| author of Clean: The New Science of Skin; and Jack Gilbert, a
| renowned microbial ecology professor at the University of
| California, San Diego and co-author of Dirt Is Good: The
| Advantage of Germs for Your Child's Developing Immune System."
|
| One of them recommends using soap only for "pits and bits" :)
| But as runners both, thats hard to do when covered in sweat and
| salt.
| JackMorgan wrote:
| I'm a daily runner/rucker who gets completely covered in
| sweat and grime every day, I've had success only wiping
| myself off with my hands in the shower followed by washing my
| hands. Unless I've specifically gotten muddy or poopy, I
| don't think there's much benefit to soaping up the whole body
| all the time.
|
| I also stopped using shampoo years ago, and a daily rinse
| keeps it fairly clean. When I can't shower for several days,
| like hiking, I do use soap everywhere, because I'm dirty
| enough that a rinse isn't sufficient.
| rusabd wrote:
| Are you losing weight? I had some rash appeared spontaneously
| after start losing weight and it took almost a year to clear
| out
| andrewzah wrote:
| Yes, actually. In that period I was doing intermittent
| fasting in addition to running 5k daily. I started at
| ~210/215 lbs and dropped down to around ~190 or so. Once I
| started taking meds and winter hit I stopped running so I'm
| back to around 210.
| rusabd wrote:
| My only theory is bro science tier idea that fat accumulate
| some toxins and then it released during weight loss.
| joshspankit wrote:
| Anecdotal evidence says this is a valid theory. I
| personally caused a shingles infection when I was
| breaking up intramuscular tissues with a lacrosse ball.
| As well, most massage therapists will have stories about
| "toxins coming to the surface" for clients after being
| worked on (especially in first-time clients) (Source:
| I've talked to about a dozen massage therapists about
| this).
| bmm6o wrote:
| They may say that, but it's unsupported by science. The
| red flag is that nobody says anything more specific than
| "toxin".
| joshspankit wrote:
| Personally I feel that "toxin" is appropriate language in
| the massage industry: the actual individual effects can
| be widely varied, clients understand it, and it prepares
| them for potential symptoms without planting any negative
| biases that would affect their actual experience through
| placebo effect.
| tnayrb wrote:
| I'm no expert, but something similar happened to me a few years
| back. The conclusion was an allergic reaction to the sun...
| andrewzah wrote:
| Did it go away on its own?
| aedocw wrote:
| I can't confirm today because it's very overcast, but as of
| a few days ago the sun had still not gone away.
| andrewzah wrote:
| I know you're joking, but this is a horrible condition.
| While researching I've seen some anecdotal stories about
| the condition just... clearing up after a while for some
| people, so hence my question.
| joshspankit wrote:
| I'm suspicious that your reply may also have a joke
| embedded in it...
| joshspankit wrote:
| Addendum: the downvote is totally fair
| nerdponx wrote:
| There's almost never harm in trying an elimination diet. Cycle
| out one major food at a time (eg wheat, eggs, milk, meat,
| nightshades, seafood), for a couple weeks at a time.
|
| Maybe start gradually introducing fermented "live" foods as a
| matter of routine.
|
| Worst that happens is you eat more veggies and try out a
| different diet. And if you find something that helps, all the
| better.
|
| It's pretty well known now that skin conditions can be related
| to gut conditions.
| andrewzah wrote:
| So I have done this for major things like coffee, milk,
| wheat. For about a week or so at a time. I guess I can try
| each again for 2+ weeks... However I'm not convinced the
| current issue (itching) is related. The symptoms only really
| present themself at night when going to bed, as I guess I
| have no other stimuli to focus on. During the day it's
| basically not an issue.
|
| I plan on trying longer fasts (3days, 5days), maybe 7days as
| well.
| DoreenMichele wrote:
| Just a couple of random thoughts:
|
| A food and symptom journal can be helpful for trying to
| connect the dots.
|
| High IgE levels can be due to parasitic infections and
| these have something of a tendency to go underdiagnosed in
| the US because they get seen as "third world problems."
| ews wrote:
| This could be ringworm. Have you see any particular
| patterns on your spots ?
| nerdponx wrote:
| On the flip side of what I posted, if it _doesn 't_ help
| then go enjoy your damn food. But good luck figuring it out
| all the same.
| joshspankit wrote:
| There are a whole host of possible insensitivities (many
| people are surprised by nightshades for example: potatoes,
| tomatoes, bell peppers, eggplant. They all share a plant
| family). Pay attention also to any products you're directly
| applying to your skin as there might be ingredients in
| there that are being absorbed.
| spdionis wrote:
| I've had similar problems and I've concluded the main
| driver was stress after all.
| tudorw wrote:
| Sulphites are worth cutting out to test too.
| 80mph wrote:
| _> >The symptoms only really present themself at night when
| going to bed, as I guess I have no other stimuli to focus
| on. During the day it's basically not an issue._
|
| Do you take night showers? If your house has hard water or
| your water dept. adds excessive chlorine, then either of
| those could be the culprit.
| airstrike wrote:
| For what it's worth (very little, since it's a medical anecdote
| shared online), my wife had a nasty case of hives for the first
| time in her life after trying a sarecycline treatment. Took us
| quite a while to connect the dots, though, and to this day we
| don't know if it was really what caused it (or stress, or the
| fact that she took 3 different vaccines on the same day, or
| everything combined)
|
| All of that is to suggest that you think about what you have
| changed about your diet, medication or anything else either in
| May or shortly before that
| andrewzah wrote:
| > what you have changed about your diet, medication or
| anything else either in May or shortly before that
|
| Well, there are only 2 things I can think of. Firstly, due to
| covid I had been working at home from March to May. Before
| covid I would still go out a lot to cafes/social workspaces
| and get sunlight. And around mid-march I started running. By
| May I was running about 5k-7k daily throughout my
| neighborhood.
|
| So we initially thought it was a bug related thing, but
| everything came back clean. We tried eliminating food, but
| nothing really seemed to have an effect after a week or two.
|
| I spoke to my immunologist and he believes it's not food
| related as I already have food related allergies (peanuts),
| so eating something else should give me quick reactions like
| peanuts do. Also, he said it's rare for adults to
| spontaneously develop something like that. Bloodwork has been
| inconclusive because my IgE is so high that it's causing
| false positives. I did a diff of my allergy bloodwork from
| and back in October, and multiple values did increase.
|
| I have tried basically everything- getting more sunlight,
| using sensitive detergent (3 different brands), cutting out
| coffee/gluten etc. Hell, we even replaced the carpet in my
| parents house with hardwood, and once I moved into my house
| we cut out the carpet as well.
| michael1999 wrote:
| Tick borne disease?
| andrewzah wrote:
| It was ruled out early on, along with fungal infections,
| HIV, etc in an array of tests. Basically every test I've
| had has come out clean, minus occasionally a little high
| blood pressure. And the IgE levels in orbit as mentioned
| above.
| beef234 wrote:
| Could it be mcas?
| rriepe wrote:
| Check out Dr. John Sarno's works. It's mostly about back
| pain but he covers other manifestations of the condition he
| calls TMS. He talks about a personality type which you seem
| to fit.
| ArkanExplorer wrote:
| Try cold showering - hot showers strip the natural oils from
| your skin and leave it dry.
|
| Ensure you're changing your bedsheets every 5 days, and wash
| them with 70degree+ water.
| fpgaminer wrote:
| I can only wish these researchers good luck; we don't even
| understand the gut's microbial ecosystem as it relates to gut
| diseases.
|
| I, unfortunately, have first hand experience here. The short
| version of my story is that I started out 2020 with an acid
| reflux diagnosis and ended 2020 laid out in bed 24/7 eating
| nothing but rice and potatoes with doctors shrugging over a
| mystery GI issue.
|
| They finally gave me a specially designed, brand name, and
| expensive as hell antibiotic that specifically targets the gut
| microbiota. The drug and its effect is the medical equivalent of
| the old IT adage: "Have you tried turning it off and on again?"
| The idea is to rain hell down upon your gut and hope it resets to
| a better balanced microbiota.
|
| So yeah, that's the current state of modern medicine when it
| comes to GI issues; bludgeon it to death and hope for the best.
| So God have mercy on this researcher attempting to identify links
| between the GI microbiota and other illnesses.
|
| P.S. I was somewhat inclined to go into more details on my
| journey, cause finding information on GI issues is so hard, but
| it would be a stupidly long comment. Suffice it to say, I learned
| a lot about the gut, but mostly about what we don't know. For all
| those people with IBS-*, SIBO, and NCGI out there, you have my
| deepest commiserations. Science can take the FODMAP diet and
| shove it up its poorly understood rectum.
|
| EDIT: I think in my revisions of this comment I forgot an
| important bit: the treatment seems to have worked. My symptoms
| are continuing to improve after the round of antibiotics. So as
| crude as the science may be, at least it worked.
| fodmap wrote:
| I've being suffering IBS for the past ten years. I also had
| that nuke all treatment and then try to colonize the gut.
|
| It was antibiotics for x days, I don't remember how many, and
| then pre and probiotics for x days. Rinse and repeat.
|
| It didn't work.
|
| I only can speak for myself but the FODMAP diet is the only
| relief I've had experienced in ten years, and for the first
| time (pardon my french) my shit is not watery.
|
| P.S. I agree science has a lot to learn about this topic.
| fpgaminer wrote:
| > for the first time (pardon my french) my shit is not watery
|
| Yeah. If I could impart advice on anyone, it's that if your
| shit isn't "good" (a nice, clean Type 3 or Type 4), you need
| to sort your shit out. In retrospect, my BMs were never
| "great" in the past couple years and ... I clearly should
| have done something about that a long time ago. It's likely
| whatever was wrong with me was brewing for awhile, and just
| triggered into something severe when something pushed it over
| the edge.
| fodmap wrote:
| Right, the Bristol Stool chart. What a fun when doctors ask
| you to keep a stool record.
|
| > It's likely whatever was wrong with me was brewing for
| awhile, and just triggered into something severe when
| something pushed it over the edge.
|
| I can't back it up with any evidence but my feeling is that
| a combo of stress and too healthy food (for me) triggered
| my gut crisis.
|
| What I mean is that I started to eat food that was too rich
| in GOS, and also fructose, just before my problems started.
| fpgaminer wrote:
| > I can't back it up with any evidence but my feeling is
| that a combo of stress and too healthy food (for me)
| triggered my gut crisis.
|
| Similar. I'd been trying to eat healthier for the past
| couple years, slowly cutting back on dessert/sweet foods,
| eating more vegetables and fruits. Even started doing
| green and fruit smoothies this year. But yeah, under the
| FODMAP theory a lot of fruits could ferment in the gut,
| some vegetables too, and beans, a staple of a healthy
| diet, are probably the prototypical high-FODMAP food.
|
| I'm not sure what the moral of that is ... I guess ...
| don't eat healthier because it might kill you? _shrug_
| The gut is a weird beast.
| deathhand wrote:
| Was there a re-colonization process? If so what
| kind/brand/bacteria types?
| fpgaminer wrote:
| The treatment is just 14-days of the antibiotic, there's
| nothing specifically done to recolonize your gut. The "off-
| and-on" again thing is really just a theory, if you can even
| call it that. Like a lot of medicine, it's something a drug
| they developed with an idea in mind, found that it worked and
| that's about the extent of our understanding of it. It may or
| may not do what we think it does, because all the
| manufacturer cared about is whether it works.
|
| I did do my own research on whether taking probiotics would
| be helpful, to recolonize my gut as you say. Of all the
| studies I read, none found any benefit. Both during treatment
| and after. So it's unlikely that a manual recolonization
| process is even needed.
|
| My personal pet theory is that the antibiotic doesn't wipe
| everything out, but instead works by making the gut a much,
| much more competitive environment. Beneficial flora tend to
| be better survivors in our guts (for various reasons), so
| they are more likely to survive the assault and the bad bugs
| are less likely. Once the good bugs have the advantage again
| they can outcompete and take over. There's also your gut's
| immune system which, based on my reading, has the potential
| to "farm" the flora in your gut. It too will be working to
| rid the bad bugs and promote the good ones. It seems like in
| the case of GI issues a bad bug gets a beachhead for one
| reason or the other and then your immune system can't
| naturally correct. The antibiotic gives it the chance to do
| that.
|
| Hence why probiotics are unlikely to do anything. It isn't a
| total elimination, so there's nothing to reseed. And your
| immune system is going to favor the same microbiota it grew
| accustomed to when you were born. Not to mention the appendix
| which is suspected as being a safe-harbor for your natural
| gut flora.
|
| I did take probiotics myself, since they don't seem to do any
| harm. I took them during and after treatment. Probiotic
| pills, Yakult, and yogurt. But there's no science backing
| that action.
| wwww4all wrote:
| Mouth and gut health are directly related to physical health AND
| mental health.
|
| The gut is often called the second brain, and lots of mental
| health issues like anxiety, depression, stress, etc can be
| greatly helped by improving diet and healthy gut.
|
| It's criminal that medical establishments are controlled by
| pharmaceutical companies and establishment media spreads
| prescription drug propaganda.
|
| Everyone needs to do their own research about gut health and
| direct impacts to physical and mental health.
| tomrod wrote:
| > The gut is often called the second brain, and lots of mental
| health issues like anxiety, depression, stress, etc can be
| greatly helped by improving diet and healthy gut.
|
| Who calls it that? I've seen a comment or two before, but
| certainly not "everyone" calling it that. It's a nice analogy
| that probably could be stretched way too far, as these things
| go.
|
| Are the causal links clearly _known_ or correlation shows that
| the link may be identifiable?
|
| > It's criminal that medical establishments are controlled by
| pharmaceutical companies and establishment media spreads
| prescription drug propaganda.
|
| Hmm... this sounds like conspiratorial thinking. Do you have
| evidence of this, and if it is the case, a reason why this
| status quo is worse than other alternatives?
|
| > Everyone needs to do their own research about gut health and
| direct impacts to physical and mental health.
|
| Why? Wouldn't it be more reasonable for scientists to research,
| work towards consensus, then report findings, rather than
| duplicating the fixed costs of setting up laboratories and
| health testing facilities in our garages? Considering I did
| this, what is the likelihood I find a stronger connection or
| novel fact about certain microbiota that inhabit my or my
| families' bodies? Or perhaps you're being less precise in your
| terminology, and you're advocating that people study
| scientists' research rather than conducting wetlab studies.
| Could you clarify?
|
| Analogously, we should also all study the universe, but few
| advocate for all to build radio telescopes on their available
| rooftops.
| mrzimmerman wrote:
| I don't have anything to add to this brilliant response but
| I'd like to say how much I appreciate it.
| wwww4all wrote:
| I'm curious as to why you think it's brilliant response?
|
| Was it the lack of initiative to do simple google search on
| gut brain physiological connections? The common phrases gut
| feeling, gut check, gut intuition are related to the gut
| brain connection.
|
| Was it the lack of insight into the hundreds of billions of
| dollars spent on prescription drug propaganda? Google how
| pharma company marketed Oxicontin, which was huge part of
| opioid addiction crisis.
|
| Was it the lack of clarity in the scientific community
| reproducibility crisis? Especially in the drug development
| fields, where Big Pharma has big incentives to push through
| dangerous drugs on people? Please Google prescription drug
| called Vioxx.
| mandis wrote:
| Programming and software fields are full of people with
| steep disregard for culturally established theories and
| truisms.
|
| Until some VC backed tech company builds a product around
| a 1000+ year old theory, it seems to hold no water in
| this community.
| chiefalchemist wrote:
| > Hmm... this sounds like conspiratorial thinking.
|
| Does it? Why so? There are a handful of entities with control
| and they all tend to have the same mindset. There's no need
| for a conspiracy. Their context and objectives are the same.
| There are a limited number of paths to that goal. They will -
| like starlings - naturally "sync." No conspiracy necessary.
|
| The fact of the matter is, more and more "traditional
| medicine" that was long dismissed is proving to be healthy.
| The use of hallucinogens to treat mental health come to mind.
| How does Big Pharma deliver value to share holders with
| plants that most anyone to grow?
|
| Editorial: You sound naive, and likely a Big Pharma employee.
| p1necone wrote:
| Deciding that people who disagree with you must be "big
| pharma" employees and denying conspiratorial thinking in
| the same post... Wow
| chiefalchemist wrote:
| First, they are not the same and/or connected.
| Correlation, not cause.
|
| More importantly, I clearly explained that conspiracy is
| not at all necessary for like-minded like-goaled entities
| to act in concert. You're unfortunately parroting
| conventional wisdom about such things, and that's a weak
| argument. It heavy handed and a false assumption.
|
| Yes, there's actual science behind such phenomenon.
|
| murmurations -
| https://animals.howstuffworks.com/birds/starling-
| murmuration...
| tomrod wrote:
| > You [are]... likely a Big Pharma employee.
|
| It'd be nice to make big Pharma wages, and even better to
| make big Pharma profits, but alas I am a simple, dedicated
| data scientist working with a non-profit.
|
| > They will - like starlings - naturally "sync."
|
| Unfortunately, such claims fail Hitchen's razor. Have you
| read Sagan's "Demon Haunted World", by chance? If not, I
| highly recommend it. There is no need to project a
| metaphorical substrate on reality -- sometimes things
| simply don't require shadowy entities running things from
| the shadow.
|
| I say this as I eat a nice slice of pizza on a Friday
| evening, with a cold beer on my coffee table and a movie
| running while I puzzle over figuring out SQL Server and
| podman/docker container max sizes. I have shadows in the
| room, but I am confident no one hides there.
|
| > You sound naive
|
| This is certainly true. There are a huge universe things I
| wish to learn more about before concluding I am a powerless
| peon.
|
| EDIT: I have figured out my podman issue, and --ulimit=host
| and --security-opt label=disable are now committed to at
| least my short-term memory.
| [deleted]
| bilegeek wrote:
| >Who calls it that?
|
| It comes from some studies[1] that show a large number of
| neurons in the gut which control subsystems, which number
| about as much as a cat brain. This is interesting and makes
| things more complicated than initially thought, but is a bit
| apples to oranges; just having as many neurons as a cat brain
| doesn't mean they operate like you hacked a brain into your
| gut.
|
| Spitballing here, but this probably started as an analogy to
| show the number of neurons, and people started thinking it
| was an actual brain.
|
| [1]https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-
| preventi...
|
| (Maybe not the best source, but google "human gut cat brain"
| and you'll see this view all over the place.)
| tomrod wrote:
| Makes sense. So the neurons themselves are not an analogy,
| but their operational status perhaps is. I appreciate you
| humoring me.
| hutzlibu wrote:
| "Analogously, we should also all study the universe, but few
| advocate for all to build radio telescopes on their available
| rooftops. "
|
| But the conditions of the stars are not linked to our well
| being (unless you are into astrology).
|
| But the condition of our gut microbiome is.
|
| I simply read the comment as a urge to investigate about your
| own biome. What works and what helps you individually, with
| the methods you have avaiable. Like checking what you eat,
| your medicines ... and how that affects your well being. Good
| indicator for health is .. a good shit so to say. But yeah,
| if you have a lab avaiable, or know a competent one, why not
| also professionally investigate your digestion outcome.
| tomrod wrote:
| Perhaps you missed the big pharma conspiracy.
| hutzlibu wrote:
| I ignored that part mostly ...
|
| But that big pharma does things, that strenghten peoples
| believe in conspiracy is sadly not far off:
|
| For example about Sanofi, a french pharma company. On the
| german Wiki page is a section criticsm, stating various
| bad things, like not telling about side effects of drugs
| and trying to suppress that knowledge in various cases
| and testing in poor countries with lax standards, etc.
|
| https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanofi#Kritik
|
| (one english link: https://techcrunch.com/2015/04/14/big-
| pharma-small-startup)
|
| But nothing to be seen on the english version for
| example. And I heard countless other stories, of which
| most were surely crackpot realm, but not at all
| everything, so I am also not really a fan of big pharma.
| bserge wrote:
| Or many ills affect the body in more extensive ways than thought.
| Constipation could be an early warning sign of Parkinson's and
| other problems, for example, not that you'd be able to tell.
|
| I'm pretty "natural", never had antibiotics and stuff. But I can
| tell you I've got plenty of problems that can _never_ be fixed by
| gut bacteria.
|
| Besides, modern lives are anything but natural.
| vmception wrote:
| Interestingly, this is what holistic practitioners and
| naturopaths have been trying to say for a long time
|
| They've just substituted the scientific method with no method at
| all and devoid of all peer review or capability of it
|
| As technology improves I expect individualized and therefore
| holistic treatments to be at the forefront
| hmmokidk wrote:
| I say this all the time. There is a lot to say about this but
| anti-biotics aren't a silver bullet. There is a drawback to them
| bigger than any of us have really imagined.
|
| There are a whole slew of mysterious illnesses probably caused by
| imbalances in the gut.
| jonas_kgomo wrote:
| Besides the gut flora being capable of some neurological effects
| it has demonstrated to be psychoactive. Professor Robert
| Sapolsky[1] has an amazing course on Behavorial Evolution. The
| toxoplasmic gondii comes from the rat -> cat -> gut -> brain, it
| is profound that side effects in the brain are chemically
| constructed from the stomach. Considering that most animals do
| not even have a brain,but usually have a stomach, it is evident
| that the gut is underestimated in the evolutionary tree.
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0Oa4Lp5fLE
| tempestn wrote:
| It really seems like some decades in the future we'll look back
| at the results of gut microbiome research as akin to the
| discoveries of bacteria and viruses. Before those discoveries it
| was known that people got sick, and that developing sickness was
| correlated with various things, like proximity to sick people, or
| poor hygiene, but the mechanisms behind those correlations
| weren't known. (Or they were suspected, but with some
| misconceptions or lack of detail.)
|
| I expect and certainly hope that as this system is better
| understood, it will unlock numerous significant advances in
| medical science. Would just be nice if that process could happen
| faster!
| forgotmypw17 wrote:
| A long time ago, our ancestors were single-celled.
|
| Then, some cells decided to live together, form a slime, division
| of labor, organs, etc. And today, voila, we have humans.
|
| However, the single-celled never went away. We have been living
| together, co-evolving together, all this time.
|
| No human has ever lived without a microbiome. We have been in
| symbiosis all this time. The immune system picks off the baddies,
| while the goodies get to stick around, serving all sorts of
| useful functions. Not only that, but the goodies actually edge
| out the baddies, because they consume most of the resources
| available to microbes. Combined with help from immune system
| police, a balance is reached.
|
| That's the way it works until you introduce various ways to harm
| the microbiome. Preservatives in the food. Substances which
| indiscriminately kill bacteria on the skin and elsewhere.
| Antibiotics. Then the balance is thrown off, the baddies get to
| proliferate unchecked, the immune system can no longer cope with
| their scale.
|
| I've stopped using any products which harm my microbiome. It's
| not easy, and it's not a one-day or one-month or one-year
| transition, but it's paid off in ways I didn't even imagine
| possible when I started out.
|
| Edit: When I post about this stuff, I often get asked about
| specifics. For reasons of privacy, and several others, I would
| rather not get into them. Do your own research, find your own
| way. Don't wait for everything to be handed to you on a plate.
| I've provided more than enough information in this comment.
| colordrops wrote:
| If you aren't willing to post specifics about your own
| activities, you could at least provide references for the
| statements you did make, e.g. battle to consume resources, and
| throwing the microbiome off.
|
| Don't bother to make vague generalizations without being
| willing to back them up, especially anonymously. It makes the
| statement nearly information-free. And this is coming from
| someone who agrees with your assessment.
| madaxe_again wrote:
| My wife had terrible acne for years - she tried every product
| under the sun, visited dermatologists, all of it.
|
| About nine months ago I persuaded her to try absolutely
| nothing. Just wash her face with mild soap and water when she
| showers or after exercise. It was a hard sell. A really hard
| sell. It looked sinfully angry for the first few weeks, and
| then, bit by bit, started to fade.
|
| Now... her skin is perfect, the scars are subsiding, and she
| hasn't had even a hint of acne or so much as a zit in four
| months.
|
| The crux of my hypothesis was that she was eradicating her skin
| microbiome over and over, and possibly breeding incredibly
| resistant bacteria with no competition.
|
| I take a similar approach with oral hygiene - I don't brush, I
| don't use toothpaste or mouthwash, I just use a wooden
| toothpick to get anything stuck out. I started this in my teens
| at boarding school, as toothbrushes were often "borrowed" for
| cleaning rugby boots, and then replaced in the rack. At the
| time, I figured not brushing was better than god only knows
| what being rubbed into my gums. I had _appalling_ breath and
| swollen gums for several months - but both just disappeared
| after adaptation.
|
| I go to see a dentist every few years, mostly out of a sense of
| obligation, and have never had a carie, cavity, periodontal
| disease, or anything - I'm pushing 40. The most they've ever
| done is polish them. By my age my mother had lost half her
| molars, my father had a gobful of crowns and fillings, so it's
| not genetics.
|
| Maybe I'm talking crap, but I think we significantly
| underestimate our bodies abilities to maintain themselves, and
| buy into the idea that we require products to keep them
| working.
|
| Unfortunately, weaning yourself off this stuff usually involves
| some degree of disruption, be it honking breath, or skin so
| angry you don't want to be seen in public.
| kart23 wrote:
| I've heard that some people do indeed have better bacterial
| biomes than others, some will be fine without brushing or
| flossing, and others will have problems. Saliva has a large
| part to play in preventing caries and bad breath, dry mouth
| can cause a lot of the issues you describe. Also, water
| fluoridation has made quite a big impact in public dental
| health. Remember that most people used to lose teeth
| regularly before the advent of fluoride toothpaste, often
| very early in their lives. Do you think that these people's
| teeth were maintaining themselves? Looking at old WW2 videos
| made me realize this, where many soldiers in their 20s had
| completely black teeth or massive gaps.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation#History
| joshspankit wrote:
| I can't find the name now, but there was a researcher who
| looked at crooked teeth and tooth decay in modern society,
| then started flying around the globe to see if the issue
| was the same in tribes. Turned out it wasn't.
|
| What do you have to say to that?
| anonAndOn wrote:
| The beasties that make plaque thrive on sugar. Turns out
| refined sugar and processed foods made with sweeteners
| like high fructose corn syrup are really hard to come by
| out in the sticks.
| kart23 wrote:
| I'm not a dentist, but I do know that bacteria feed on
| sugar and carbohydrates. There's some info that says
| refined carbs are just as bad as candy. If all you eat is
| meat, vegetables, and some fruit, you're probably not
| gonna get as many cavities as a refined grain-based diet
| with more refined sugar.
| accounted wrote:
| A similar, and perhaps better option:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miswak
| bserge wrote:
| Yeah, I'd say don't apply that thinking to _everything_.
| titzer wrote:
| Did you have your wisdom teeth out? Are your teeth straight?
| That makes a huge difference.
| da_big_ghey wrote:
| For what it's worth, I've done the same, but it only worked
| because I wasn't eating a bunch of sugary garbage. Definitely
| nobody should try it who eats that sort of stuff even
| somewhat often.
| pengaru wrote:
| Exactly.
|
| A close friend of mine had horrible dental hygiene, rarely
| brushing, drank soda and beer as his water, and only went
| to the dentist after developing intolerable pain something
| like a decade into this mode.
|
| When he came to work the day after his dentist visit, he
| said the dentist told him "this is what we call mountain
| dew mouth" when examining his teeth.
|
| If you don't eat stuff that makes plaque thrive, the
| consequences of ignoring it are less severe.
| Grimm1 wrote:
| You lost me at antibiotics. Overuse is a problem for certain,
| but we'd have a lot more death, and possibly worse, disability
| without them.
| serverholic wrote:
| You just made up an argument for a point that the OP wasn't
| making.
| Xunjin wrote:
| He is not wrong... OP did not make this point however you
| can infer it, from his point of view
|
| Actually in my limited knowledge about biology, both are
| right, when things are way discompensated, you have to use
| things to kill bacterias which almost take control of a
| part of your body (the baddies one) .
| chillwaves wrote:
| That misses the point. It's a trade off. The mindset of
| saying something is good or bad is ridiculously limiting.
|
| Yes, more people would die. Does that mean the ones who
| didn't would be worse off? Less healthy?
|
| There is a natural balance to the world order. Pushing
| the system, even building it up, creates strains that
| might not be obvious until it is catastrophically so.
| croes wrote:
| Is it that why now more people live on earth than ever since?
| chillwaves wrote:
| Your comment has nothing to do with the comment you are
| replying to. It's about quality of life and individual
| health.
|
| You could breed humans like we do with industrial agriculture
| and factory farms, but you would have a difficult time
| arguing this is good for the health of the animals (or
| people) involved.
| titzer wrote:
| Probably because of reduced all-cause mortality, increased
| food production, and the relative peace of the 20th century.
| azinman2 wrote:
| Relative peace of the 20th century? At least 108M have died
| in war. I believe it to be one of the biggest on record,
| and certainly not one of the peaceful times. So relative
| peace compared to what?
| titzer wrote:
| Well, I meant the latter part of the 20th century.
| Population has more than tripled since then. The crazy
| thing is that the 108M that died in WW2 really only
| slowed, or paused world population growth. It was not a
| devastating depopulation event like the Bubonic plague
| that killed 1/3rd of Europe.
| azinman2 wrote:
| When you say peace, I don't think about plagues, natural
| disasters, or anything of the sort. I think of war. And
| there's been war every decade (I believe) of the 20th
| century.
| zabzonk wrote:
| > So relative peace compared to what?
|
| Total world population.
|
| https://www.vox.com/2015/6/23/8832311/war-
| casualties-600-yea...
| RankingMember wrote:
| > Edit: When I post about this stuff, I often get asked about
| specifics. For reasons of privacy, and several others, I would
| rather not get into them. Do your own research, find your own
| way. Don't wait for everything to be handed to you on a plate.
| I've provided more than enough information in this comment.
|
| Come on now, are you really going to post about how something
| "paid off in ways I didn't even imagine possible when I started
| out" and not name even one example? This lowers your comment to
| being basically on the same tier of conversation as conspiracy
| theorists who brush off requests for proof with "DO YOUR
| RESEARCH, THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE I CAN'T GIVE YOU SPECIFICS".
| johnchristopher wrote:
| Haha, that's what he did :D.
|
| Coincidentally I looked OP's profile and found this URL again
| http://hn:hn@sHiTMyseLf.com/index.html. I had stumbled upon
| it in a previous thread (don't remember which one, but I only
| look at profile when I read some specific kind of comments).
|
| I didn't get what the website was about last time and I
| didn't stay long enough this time either.
| forgotmypw17 wrote:
| That URL was obfuscated to prevent bot abuse.
|
| It will now be replaced with a new one.
| remexre wrote:
| https://xkcd.com/1808/
| trhway wrote:
| unfortunately mentioning any specifics risks transforming the
| conversation into arguing about such a specific item with the
| results being projected back onto the main statement. It also
| risks sounding like one is pushing his/her pseudoscientific
| stuff. In the area like microbiome with highly individual
| situations and relatively low level of established science
| any specifics is just an anecdote not much suitable for
| rigorous discussion. (i have myself found a couple ways of
| dealing with my SIBO (test based diagnosed by GE) for example
| and almost never discuss those specifics. It is really an
| area of "do you own research" and the useful methods/etc. are
| really "out there".)
| johnchristopher wrote:
| Maybe so but "Don't wait for everything to be handed to you
| on a plate. I've provided more than enough information in
| this comment." is really condescending and not inspiring
| much trust.
|
| It's also a classic move when you can't backup your claims.
| bsanr2 wrote:
| "This worked for me, but might not work for you, because of
| our specific circumstances," followed by a detailed
| description, would suffice, and in turn be much less
| useless and condescending.
|
| Please, discuss specifics (as I have).
| trhway wrote:
| with all the caveats of not being a doctor and all the
| risks known and unknown, "don't try at home", etc.
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17139208
|
| while i didn't get totally cured, the condition went down
| very significantly, a couple orders of magnitude (by
| subjective feeling and some objective metrics), and since
| then i've mostly been maintaining the situation by a
| daily teaspoon of activated charcoal mixed into 2 cups of
| water (i drink it at least 3 hours after meal and at
| least 2 hours before meal to minimize charcoal binding on
| food instead of its intended targets).
| bsanr2 wrote:
| This is interesting. I was never diagnosed with anything
| (too poor to go to the doctor at the time, even with
| insurance), but I came to the conclusion that I had a
| similar issue: bad (or overgrown) bacteria housed snugly
| in biofilm. As mentioned here
| (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26119265), someone
| suggested taking digestive enzymes on an empty stomach
| would help to break down the biofilm and allow healthier
| bacteria a chance to eatablish themselves.
|
| Two different self-treatments aimed at what seem to be
| similar issues with anecdotal success. Hm. I really,
| really do hope that all aspects of our experiences get
| studied more thoroughly in the future.
|
| Thanks for sharing.
| M5x7wI3CmbEem10 wrote:
| how did you start?
| Diederich wrote:
| Starting in around 2013 or so, I stopped using any kind of
| soap or cleaner on my body, with a couple of exceptions. I
| still wash my hands regularly, and I use a tiny little bit of
| fairly bland, unscented soap between my legs in the shower.
| Note that my head hair is quite long, naturally coming down
| to my mid/lower back.
|
| How do I get my body/face clean in the shower? Very hot water
| and very vigorous scrubbing/rubbing.
|
| After doing that for a week, my body odor virtually
| disappeared, even when I was hot and sweaty. While my overall
| skin and hair condition had always been ok, it improved
| noticeably.
|
| I did this after reading a number of articles online about it
| and figured it would be worth trying.
|
| As a bit of an experimental control, I didn't tell my wife
| that I was doing this. We do regularly brush and braid each
| other's hair. After about two weeks, she said that my hair
| was more full and healthy than it's ever been, and she also
| confirmed the body odor changes.
|
| So this is anecdotal: it was useful for me, and might be
| useful to some others. However, given everything we're
| learning about microbiomes in _and on_ the body, it seems to
| make a lot of sense.
| jimlikeslimes wrote:
| Tried this for months, I really smelled bad. Good friends
| telling me unprompted etc. YMMV.
| pengaru wrote:
| I concur.
|
| I've lived in homesteading environments where numerous
| people go months bathing sparingly using just water,
| while still actually getting things done involving
| significant labor, sweating and generally getting dirty.
|
| Everyone reeks in these conditions. They don't realize
| it, and their intimate partners who are in constant
| contact also don't quite appreciate the degree of odor,
| because it's shared.
|
| But from an outsider perspective, it's _ripe_.
|
| There's probably an evolutionary reason for this, members
| of a tribe will smell similarly when eating the same food
| and sharing space/objects in close quarters. I can easily
| imagine how that would be advantageous. Foreigners will
| stink.
| Diederich wrote:
| > bathing sparingly
|
| That could be a difference; I scrub a good long time
| using quite a bit of hot water.
| sharadov wrote:
| I used to use hot water + scrub. Was told it's terrible
| for your skin by my dermatologist, you start developing
| eczema in some cases in the long run. Warm water, white
| unscented mild soap and no scrub was his recommendation.
| colordrops wrote:
| I've been using olive oil based soap and it works great.
| forgotmypw17 wrote:
| .
| volkk wrote:
| can you expand on that? and also what do you mean by ways
| you couldn't even imagine?
| refurb wrote:
| Knowing that what you eat - more fiber, less fiber, more carbs,
| less carbs, etc, how do you optimize your microbiome when there
| is so much variety among humans? Which is the right biome?
| atian wrote:
| You can start at blood type.
| dragosmocrii wrote:
| It's interesting to see more and more articles lately reporting a
| strong connection between ilnesses (or lack) and one's microbiome
| health. What I noticed from my experience, is that kombucha and
| kimchi make me feel great if I consume these regularly (once or
| twice a week). Sometimes I will indulge in some crap food like
| pizzas and noodles, which make me feel unwell, but kombucha and
| kimchi work as a reset :)
| genewitch wrote:
| pizza and noodles are also high on the "glycemic index"
| whatever that means, and probably should be avoided. I don't
| think all noodles are, but probably most of the noodles in
| america should be avoided?
|
| Kombucha, especially if you brew your own and can adjust the
| tea used to make the perfect taste, is probably not doing any
| harm, and if any of the health benefits are true (i'm not sure,
| i never researched it, i just like the flavor) then awesome.
|
| I don't want to comment more than a couple times in these
| threads, so i'll just put this here: I've been saying that the
| gut bacteria are probably more "us" than our brains are; i read
| a study about 16 or 17 years ago that showed that wheat and
| sugar (two grasses) when digested in human guts release
| agonists/antagonist/whatever for opioids which your brain takes
| up. So when you go on a diet that restricts sugar or wheat, you
| actually literally mentally and physically suffer withdrawal
| symptoms. This can make massive cravings take hold, which might
| lead to over-indulgence in, say, chocolate chip cookies or
| cake, which cause the dwindling gut fauna to bloom like crazy,
| making you feel great even though you broke your diet, and
| making it even harder to attempt to get your plan back on the
| rails again.
|
| they're linking everything to gut biome now, alzheimers and a
| slew of other mental issues. I was so enraptured by the
| research and papers i read that i actually swore i'd have a
| farm before i was 45, producing excess food for anyone that
| wanted it. Nothing since then has contradicted the prior
| research, and as i said, there's new "traced to gut
| flora/fauna" papers being published what seems like biweekly.
| andrebotelho wrote:
| solid read
| dekken_ wrote:
| https://outline.com/TtrWGF
| JoeAltmaier wrote:
| It seems reasonable. It's been said, even if we cloned a Mammoth,
| it would quickly die if we didn't colonize its gut carefully. It
| had adapted to eating what was growing forty thousand years ago.
| It would need different flora to digest hay today. Even then,
| there might be no solution compatible with its intestinal
| biochemistry. We are all products of our environment.
| bigmattystyles wrote:
| Completely anecdotal, personal experience. It wasn't Accutane but
| when I was a pimply teen, in an effort to remedy the acne, I was
| prescribed doxycycline and another topical antibacterial
| ointment; in any case, I never had heartburn or experienced
| depression prior to that but a few months after starting those
| meds, both started. It's likely unrelated but whenever I read how
| crucial biomes are - I can't help but wonder. For the record, I
| preferred the acne.
| james-bcn wrote:
| Interesting. I took oxytetracycline for acne for several years
| as a teenager in the late 1980s. I wonder if anyone has done a
| study on the long-term effects of that.
| codesnik wrote:
| oh my, I was prescribed a course of doxycycline once, and those
| were gloomiest and angriest couple weeks of my life. I felt
| like I'm a sociopath, just didn't care about people
| emotionally. And that bitter taste all the time, like my saliva
| just become bitter.
| gr1zzlybe4r wrote:
| Anecdotally I wonder about this sometimes too. I took Accutane
| mostly because I had a parent that really drove me to take it
| (I think projecting some of their own issues with acne onto my
| completely normal amount of teenage acne) and I definitely feel
| like it changed my mood during and after taking it. I didn't
| drink at all on it either. It's a drug that you shouldn't be
| able to have a teenager take unless it's approved by a panel of
| dermatologists or something. I had no idea of the severity of
| the side effects from it when I took it.
| fraudsyndrome wrote:
| I took this when I was a teenager too, acne was horrible even
| with a proper skincare routine. Getting access to Accutane
| was easy, only took 1 session with a Dermatologist who asked
| me basic questions on what my routine was. In hindsight I
| wonder if this should have been harder to access.
|
| Of course it worked and I feel like I gotboff relatively
| lucky with the side-effects. One benefit was dry(er)
| skin/hair, which sounds bad but oily skin/hair was relatively
| worse to live with. I also never knew how bad some side-
| effects could have been which is why I said I was lucky.
|
| However what I'll never know is - whether I'd be different if
| I never took it. Some side-effects are so out of the ordinary
| that even if I have it, I'll never effectively be able to say
| "yes, that was because I took Accutane when I was younger".
| Even being lucky, I still wished I just let the hormonal acne
| play out.
|
| Edit: I just had a quick glance on the list of side-effects
| and for example, I've had back pain since I was a teen, and I
| thought it was just my form that was the cause even though
| I'd watch tens of hours of videos on proper form, people I
| know would use way worse form and never suffer an injury.
| Minor anxiety and even being susceptible to being sick. Some
| of these apply but they are also very common in those taking
| Isotretinoin (besides the anxiety; 1/1000-10000) but sadly I
| can't ever know whether the cause was due to the medication.
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