[HN Gopher] System76 Launch Configurable Keyboard with Open Sour...
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System76 Launch Configurable Keyboard with Open Source Code
Author : nitinreddy88
Score : 495 points
Date : 2021-02-11 03:39 UTC (19 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (github.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (github.com)
| eeZah7Ux wrote:
| The key placement is not ergonomic. Why not using an ortholinear
| layout?
| surfsvammel wrote:
| Can someone tell me what this brings to the table? Isn't there
| already a gazillion keyboards like this and already open source
| stuff if anyone want to build a keyboard like this?
| bluGill wrote:
| Made in the USA, which means no questionable labor practices
| compared to China. This might or might not matter to you.
|
| It is also another step in System 76s long run to produce their
| own laptop in house. Today they just put their label on an off
| the shelf laptop (the advantage of buying from them is they are
| a large enough customer that they can demand linux compatible
| parts, while if you buy the same laptop you might discovered
| they substituted some incompatible part for something). However
| making their own laptops from scratch gives them flexibility to
| make them with the specs linux users say they want. (it remains
| to be seen if linux users will actually buy what they say they
| want)
| meepmorp wrote:
| Just to be clear, here - system76 launched a keyboard using
| previously existing, widely used open source keyboard firmware.
| uberduper wrote:
| Imagine the criticism they'd have faced if they'd used anything
| other than QMK. Their use and presumed future support is a good
| thing.
| meepmorp wrote:
| Absolutely, there's no reason to write your own when QMK
| gives you so much.
| mypalmike wrote:
| QMK is great. But it definitely lacks in some useful
| abstractions. For instance, lots of split keyboards use IO
| expanders over I2C, and each one has bespoke code for doing
| the grid scan.
| CyberDildonics wrote:
| They were criticizing the title for not being clear, not
| System76.
| rualca wrote:
| > Imagine the criticism they'd have faced if they'd used
| anything other than QMK.
|
| You're making it sound like reinventing the wheel to come up
| with a higher cost and lower quality offering is something to
| be proud about.
| cestith wrote:
| I'd also be fine with Kaleidoscope.
| shirro wrote:
| They also sell computers with open firmware running open source
| operating systems. I sense a connection.
| konart wrote:
| So.... it's just another QMK based board, no? What's the catch?
| tlhunter wrote:
| Note that the System 76 laptop keyboards are also hardware
| programmable.
| noncoml wrote:
| My advice to HN folks. Buy a keyboard with swappable switches and
| try out a lot different ones.
|
| My favorite ended up being lightly lubed cheery mx red. But you
| never know unless you try at least a few.
| stock_toaster wrote:
| Or just but a key test pad, and a few different types of
| switches, to see which action you prefer. This avoids the need
| to outlay for a full set of switches (or many!) you end up not
| liking.
|
| I ended up liking Kailh BOX Silent Brown switches.
| noncoml wrote:
| I guess. Personally I need to use the keyboard for at least a
| couple of hours. Some switches that feel nice when you test
| them, end up being tiring for long term use.
| DoofusOfDeath wrote:
| Can you expand on this a little?
|
| I sometimes hear of keyboard aficionados having strong
| preferences for various "colors" of Cherry key switches. And
| I see high-end keyboards advertised with having particular
| choices of Cherry switches.
|
| But I have no idea if it's actually worth the effort of
| making the stars align so that I have a particular kind of
| Cherry switch under my fingers.
|
| How do people figure this out without wasting a lot of money?
| I.e., is there some kind of keyboard that shows off all the
| popular Cherry switch types? If so, do people end up having
| to buy one just for that single use, or is there a way to
| rent one?
| woodrowbarlow wrote:
| "switch tester" is the word you're looking for, i.e.: https
| ://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_lis...
|
| (or even: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3143070)
|
| it's just a frame, no electronics, that you can snap
| switches into and then mount a keycap onto them. you can
| get kits that comes with a handful of different switches +
| a handful of blank keycaps, or just the frame.
|
| switches can be purchased individually or in small batches
| for around $1/per (obviously varying by brand and
| retailer).
|
| you can see how it's a slippery slope from "let me try out
| a couple switches" to "wanna see my custom keyboard
| collection?".
| stock_toaster wrote:
| I have also bought some keycaps and switches from
| Kono[1]. They seemed to have a decent selection.
|
| [1]:
| ehwhyreally wrote:
| https://www.logitechg.com/en-au/products/gaming-keyboards/g8...
|
| Best keyboard ive ever used, Linear keys. Fantastic for not only
| gaming but its office safe as its not a loud annoying clunk of
| crap
| notorandit wrote:
| Neat idea. Having an USB hub into the keybaord makes things
| easier on crowded desks. I know there have already been a few in
| the market, but this one looks gorgeous!
| andrewshadura wrote:
| The important question is: does it come with an ISO layout?
| vman81 wrote:
| Seems like they placed the controller right under where the
| left shift button is on ISO layout, so no, not without some
| significant redesign.
| zucker42 wrote:
| This is super exciting. A high quality keyboard with first class
| linux support. Does anyone know the price? And it's a 75% layout,
| which is my personal favorite.
| jagger27 wrote:
| Every single custom mechanical keyboard supports fully
| customizable open source firmware called QMK or Via. Nothing
| about any mechanical keyboard with QMK is inherently second-
| class when it comes to Linux.
|
| The other weird thing about this keyboard is that the keycap
| compatibility is a little bit awkward. The wide delete key,
| short backspace, small return, and split spacebars are not
| impossible to replace, but many common MX sets don't have those
| keycaps in the base kit. Most GMK base sets will only include
| the smaller backspace. You'll need to shell out for the
| additional "40s" kit for those keys.
|
| I don't know the price but I would estimate at least $250 USD
| depending on the volume they intend to produce. A keyboard like
| this run through GeekHack and co would easily go for $350
| without keycaps.
| zucker42 wrote:
| With regards to Linux, I'm thinking about the software tools
| and documentation they presumably will provide.
| sawjet wrote:
| Why does a keyboard need source code? It's just a bunch of
| addressable switches.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| The HID protocol does not just implement it as addressable
| switches. In addition there's a question of which address each
| switch has.
| ashtonkem wrote:
| I mean, even "regular" keyboards have source code these days,
| it's just usually closed and flashed to the board permanently.
| The days of keyboards literally being addressable switches
| ended decades ago.
|
| But the reason why you'd want user programmable keyboards is
| the ability to change which keys do what. My keyboard has four
| different layouts ("layers") that have totally different
| keymappings. I use them for daily work, work macros, and video
| gaming.
| nine_k wrote:
| Tandy 80 in 1979 and IBM PC a couple years later already used
| the Intel 8042 controller in their keyboards.
|
| Software for keyboards has a _long_ history. Custom software
| for keyboards, not as much, but it 's a pretty established
| niche. QMK firmware mentioned in the article is a few years
| old.
| ashtonkem wrote:
| My understanding is that QMK backs a lot of custom
| keyboards and UI configuration tools. My Ergodox EZ runs
| QMK under the hood.
| nine_k wrote:
| This is correct; QMK.FM lists a ton of supported
| keyboards. (I also got an EZ, but plan to build a Kyria.)
| WrtCdEvrydy wrote:
| Because it's the 21st century and every piece of hardware has
| some software in it... from your CPU to your keyboard.
| jdboyd wrote:
| There is more involved if you want USB, not to mention multi-
| keystroke macros and/or user configurable macros.
| hyperion2010 wrote:
| Overlays, function keys, macro keys, fancy responsive RGB light
| shows, the list goes on.
| hakfoo wrote:
| A PC-style keyboard isn't just an array of addressable
| switches. There's always been a microcontroller scanning the
| switches, disambiguating corner-case signals, and packaging it
| all into USB.
|
| Probably the first driver for custom firmware is custom
| layouts.
|
| Some people like some fairly exotic layouts. For example, a lot
| of smaller keyboards rely on multiple "layers" hidden behind
| modifier or toggle keys. Or you may just want a few
| programmable macros. For example, I have the incantations for
| my KVM switch mapped to a few uncommon key combinations.
|
| If you're moving between different OS's or even machines, it
| might make more sense to bake all the smarts into the keyboard
| rather than to try to get several different software installs
| to behave consistently.
|
| There are also a lot of gimmicky things you can add with custom
| features: per-key light effects, little OLED displays with
| graphics or statistics, faster scan rates.
| jagger27 wrote:
| Even the dumbest and oldest PS/2 keyboard in your attic had
| some firmware blob on it. This is preferable.
| umvi wrote:
| > Why does a keyboard need source code
|
| Because USB is very complicated. I'm sure you could do it 100%
| with hardware, but then your keyboard's source code will be
| Verilog since you would need an ASIC
| mhh__ wrote:
| Firmware is code, believe it or not.
|
| You get some true horror stories coming from embedded engineers
| dabbling in software in this fields, the firmware is probably
| some of the least tested, verified, and generally visible code
| in many stacks.
| PurpleFoxy wrote:
| To change the function of the fn keys. The keyboard is not just
| a dumb input, when you hold fn the board sends different codes
| for the same keys. This means you can't easily move where the
| volume function keys are for example.
| rbanffy wrote:
| I'm feeling a bit old now with my unconfigurable non-RGB 122 key
| Unicomp Model-M.
|
| It's not compact, however.
| viraptor wrote:
| I've seen the customisable keyboard firmware a few times now.
| Could someone explain what's the benefit over just setting a
| keymap instead? If I can switch to anything including Dvorak
| already in the OS, why would I want to do that at firmware layer?
| kisamoto wrote:
| Another advantage is that the keymapping can get saved onto the
| keyboard itself.
|
| Plug your keyboard into a new computer and the keymapping stays
| the same.
| jdboyd wrote:
| One possible reason is that it would continue being Dvorak if
| you moved it to a new computer.
| viraptor wrote:
| But you can easily switch the other computer to Dvorak as
| well. Meanwhile anyone else trying to type on your keyboard
| cannot temporarily reverse to a common layout.
| germ wrote:
| But you can do that by changing the default layer.
|
| [0] !https://beta.docs.qmk.fm/using-qmk/software-
| features/feature...
| GoOnThenDoTell wrote:
| It's a bit of a pain sometimes though, for example, when
| installing a new OS (not all offer all key maps during
| install), or when you're not sure if an interviewer will
| ask you to type on a laptop that you didn't bring, or if
| you have a mildly different layout that you prefer that
| isn't in the default install of the various OSs
| powersnail wrote:
| You can add all kinds of modes, like a built-in vim mode for
| your keyboard. I have programmed three layers, theoretically
| pretty optimized for text editing.
|
| That said, I have forgotten what the third layer shortcuts are,
| because I never actually used them after day 1.
| nine_k wrote:
| Easily.
|
| All my modifier keys are on the home row. E.g. F is Shift until
| I release it, or F after I release it. My pinkies are not
| overburdened, and I'm an Emacs user.
|
| Then, layers. I don't need to move my hand to the numpad; I
| press a modifier with my left hand, and the numpad is instantly
| under my right hand. Same with shifted symbols like @ or &; I
| can have them right under my left hand, without reaching far.
| Same for media control keys.
|
| QMK also emulates a mouse, so I can move the mouse cursor,
| click, scroll with keys, pressing another modifier.
|
| Also you can assign macros to keys. I have little use for it,
| but people playing games, or people using certain unergonomic
| software, appreciate it a lot.
|
| This all is, of course, fully configurable.
| rgoulter wrote:
| A significant benefit that custom keyboard firmware allows is
| reduced finger movement. Though mostly this is more
| sophisticated than just changing between qwerty/dvorak.
|
| e.g. pressing a shortcut like "Ctrl + b" most likely involves
| stretching your pinky finger on a standard keyboard. One
| feature custom keyboards often have is dual-use keys; keys
| which act the same if tapped, but have a different function if
| held. So e.g. tapping 'f' outputs 'f', holding 'f' is the same
| as holding 'shift'. With that technique, you can put Shift,
| Ctrl, GUI, Alt all on the home row.
|
| Custom firmware can also support chords; e.g. pressing 'cv' at
| the same time could be a chord to switch to the previous
| virtual desktop.
|
| Custom firmware also allows layers (similar to how some laptops
| have a 'numpad' in the middle of the keyboard which can be used
| if Fn is held). This allows more flexibility, at the cost of
| more complexity.
|
| Much of this could be done with e.g. kmonad, but it's nice to
| have it on the keyboard itself.
| jotux wrote:
| I rebind Caps Lock on every machine I use to make it control
| and basically never use the control key anymore. I find it
| makes common left-hand key combination much more ergonomic.
| meepmorp wrote:
| I still can't understand how anyone doesn't remap Caps
| Lock. That's prime modifier real estate and letting it
| remain the shouting grandpa key is a travesty.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| fido wrote:
| Another cool reason: This board uses QMK firmware, which also
| has built-in support for MIDI, including a sequencer. So, I can
| have a layer that sends midi cc, notes on/off, program changes,
| clock, etc.
|
| If I'm working in a DAW such as Pro Tools or Logic, I can do
| all sorts of things such as program keys to play full chords or
| chord progressions. Maybe I want to press some key combo to
| start/stop my external sequencer, or arm/disarm a synth to
| improvise live with a looper, but not record into the loop.
|
| I'm sure the possibilities are endless, but having the
| flexibility to tinker and build your own workflow is super
| neat.
| tux1968 wrote:
| So that it works as you expect at the boot loader menu, and in
| the bios settings ;-)
| PurpleFoxy wrote:
| Yep, especially when the downsides are next to nothing, why
| not.
| kisamoto wrote:
| Personally I've been really happy with my split 60% keyboard from
| UltimateHackingKeyboard [0]. It also has open source electronics
| files and firmware
|
| I backed them on CrowdSupply some years ago and although it took
| a while to be delivered have used it extensively since and even
| purchased a second one for at home & the office. A huge positive
| while waiting for it was the regular, informative status emails
| from the founder.
|
| Now they are on to v2 [1] with backlighting and better keycaps.
|
| The "Agent" firmware is also regularly updated and makes
| customising the keyboard a breeze. I won't go extensively into
| the functionality here but it's worth checking out.
|
| I am in no-way affiliated with UHK but if anybody is looking for
| a split, open source, customisable keyboard I would highly
| recommend.
|
| [0] https://uhk.io/
|
| [1]
| https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/blog/2020/11/05/introduc...
| timgilbert wrote:
| Wait - it looks like you have to use Fn-Q or Fn-` for ESC?
| 1337_d00dZ wrote:
| Yeah, that is deal-breaker. I have Caps-Lock assigned to ^C
| and won't be moving that to Escape...
| rattus_rattus wrote:
| That's the original key mapping, yeah, but it's very easy to
| change in the software it comes with. I immediately re-mapped
| it so that the escape key works by itself.
|
| You can change literally any key mapping you like, and do
| some wild stuff with it. I've got shortcuts for taking
| different types of screenshots mapped to key combos that are
| easy to reach, for example, because I take tons of
| screenshots for work.
| senux wrote:
| The UHK looks awesome. I'd totally use it if it had ortholinear
| keys.
| meepmorp wrote:
| Ergodox might suit you.
| ashton314 wrote:
| Or the Moonlander made by the same people
| ashtonkem wrote:
| It looks like the Moonlander might be a bit better if
| you've got smaller hands. A common complaint about the
| Ergodox is that the thumb clusters can be a huge reach
| for those with smaller hands.
|
| Personally I have the Ergodox Shine and I love it. If I
| had to do it again I wouldn't do the shine though; the
| backlight just highlights how much cat hair is on my
| desk.
| alexpotato wrote:
| Was not aware of this product when I was originally looking for
| a new mech split keyboard.
|
| I did stumble upon the Moonlander [0] but couldn't justify the
| price point.
|
| Further looking brought me to the Koolertron split keyboard
| which so far I've been liking for a small "cloffice" used
| during the lockdowns. I even did a full write up here of what I
| thought:
| https://twitter.com/alexpotato/status/1350530940561457155
|
| [0] - https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/
| BigJ1211 wrote:
| I've been using it since 2 weeks now. It's a great keyboard.
| I was using the redox-wireless before this which is also
| really good and quite a bit cheaper. but the moonlander helps
| with my RSI and CTS more than the redox did. Got the white
| moonlander and a white trackball going now. Great for
| ergonomics and lessening the strain.
|
| If you can spend the money on it I highly recommend it. If
| not you can try looking into self-building a redox (I'd
| recommend non-wireless as the wireless has some quirks
| atleast mine from falbatech does, falbatech has nice tenting
| and bamboo casings for split keyboards. You can buy separate
| parts and kits or buy them pre-built.
| 3np wrote:
| If I could put low-profile caps and switches (e.g. khail choc)
| without too crazy modifications, i would buy one in a heartbeat
| baumy wrote:
| Also not affiliated at all and seconding this, love mine and
| would have bought another by now if I still had to go to an
| office and also work sometimes at home. I've tried all kinds of
| keyboards - the microsoft ergonomic ones, full size mechanical
| ones like the das, split ones like the kinesis and the ergodox.
| UHK I can honestly say is perfect in my opinion and the best of
| them all. Excitedly awaiting some of the attachment modules for
| a trackball / trackpad
| stock_toaster wrote:
| I ordered a v2! Seems to be a bit of delay due to upstream
| keycap manufacturing delays though.
| thor_molecules wrote:
| If UHK would make a bluetooth/wireless model I would buy one in
| a heartbeat
| doikor wrote:
| I really would like to get one of these nice split keyboards
| but I have not been able to find one with ISO Nordic layout
| (Swedish/Finnish if printing the keys).
|
| The UK layout is close but not quite there (enter is 2 rows
| tall in our layout and one extra key next to it)
|
| http://www.farah.cl/Keyboardery/A-Visual-Comparison-of-Diffe...
| ashtonkem wrote:
| Get a blank key ergodox-ez and program the layout yourself in
| QMK.
| doikor wrote:
| It has the same problem as any ANSI or normal ISO keyboard.
| Too few keys if I want them anywhere the normal position of
| the keys. I have no interest in learning new positions for
| the keys really (even less hiding them behind modifiers
| keys) that is why I want a fully nordic compatible one. You
| can't just magically program one or two more keys to a
| couple of the rows.
|
| Basically after P I need at least 2 keys to the right of it
| (not counting enter). 3 keys to the right of L (again not
| counting enter) and one key left of Z (not counting shift).
|
| And yes our enter key is 2 rows tall.
|
| Really all I want is a normal nordic layout keyboard split
| in 2 with good quality switches and working tilting/wrist
| rests.
| Ndymium wrote:
| For those that have a UHK or are thinking of getting one, we
| have an unofficial Discord server at https://discord.gg/b4z4rfv
| which is also tunneled with ##uhk on Freenode. Welcome if you
| want to discuss any UHK matters. :)
|
| Personally I am very happy with my two UHKs (one for the office
| and one for home, though for obvious reasons they are both home
| now). I have stopped using a mouse and use the mouse layer
| exclusively now for working, though on my work one I have a
| prerelease version of the trackpoint module that I use. Being a
| split design has made it easier for my hands and finally forced
| me to learn proper finger technique.
| hanklazard wrote:
| That looks great! I built a similar one and really enjoy it,
| the quefrency v2 (https://keeb.io/products/quefrency-
| rev-2-60-65-split-stagger...). All in, might have been
| slightly cheaper though also took plenty of time for
| soldering and assembly.
|
| Before building this, I had tried a split ortholinear and was
| eying a moolander. Unfortunately, since I have to use a
| standard laptop for work (and I'm moving around a lot during
| the day), I just couldn't reprogram my fingers on an
| ortholinear ... I found switching back & forth very
| challenging and in the end, not worth it.
| mariusor wrote:
| I'm currently waiting for a trackball module and I am curious
| how they fit into your usual keyboard usage. Is it difficult
| to get used to it? Do you use it as a scroll wheel or as a
| normal mouse?
| Ndymium wrote:
| I used the trackball module as a mouse but I prefer the
| trackpoint. If I didn't have the trackpoint, I would
| probably use the trackball more than the mouse layer. Both
| were pretty easy to get used to, a few days.
|
| I scroll using the mouse layer mostly. There is a mini
| trackball in the key cluster module that is handy for more
| accurate scrolling but it easily also scrolls horizontally.
| I would assume they'll make it configurable.
| dr_kiszonka wrote:
| UHK looks fabulous - thanks for sharing!
|
| Could you explain how dragging works with the trackball
| module? The website says that the trackball is not
| pressable and I can't imagine how I would control it and
| press one of its keys with the same hand.
|
| And one question about the trackpoint, if you have time.
| I tried trackpoints on my Thinkpad laptops, but couldn't
| get used to them because they were too stiff. Have you
| ever come across any alternative tips/nibbles? I would
| love to have one that feels like a PS controller stick
| :-)
| swagtricker wrote:
| The UHK is great. I have a V1 with a V2 on order. My only
| complaint is that my 2 year old ABS key caps have started to
| show some wear, but I've got the new set of PBTs that are for
| both versions on order as well. I'm going to give my V1 to a
| good friend who will appreciate it when the V2 comes in.
| svnpenn wrote:
| Why are so many keyboards tiny like this? If I want a small
| keyboard, I will just use a laptop.
|
| I have a huge desk, I don't want a 12" keyboard with 2 weird
| small space keys, and the arrow keys smashed into the right side.
| LeonidasXIV wrote:
| Personally I have my keyboard on my lap so having a full-size
| keyboard is rather inconvenient.
|
| But I think this video is an excellent introduction on the
| reasoning why tiny keyboards are popular:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKGXZ1ReU54
| jeromenerf wrote:
| Let aside the personal preferences, 60% was popularized by the
| gaming crowd:
|
| 1. Small means the mouse is closer to the keyboard 2. Games
| often rely on wasd instead of arrows 3. 40% cheaper for
| alternative switches and keycaps, or higher margins for the
| producers 4. Style and look may feel like more exclusive,
| competitive, make hands look bigger. Fashion is important in
| this community.
|
| Thanks to their firmware, they are very usable but it is really
| a matter of personal preferences.
| sonnyp wrote:
| In this case I believe it's because System76 want to start
| designing their own laptop rather than relying on off-the-shelf
| Clevo designs and some of this keyboard design might make it
| into their own laptop.
|
| I do like smaller keyboards though, easier to switch with
| laptop, less finger travel, less travel to the mouse and so on
| kohlerm wrote:
| That would be great, e.g. a customizable laptop keyboard with
| an open source firmware :-)
| Weebs wrote:
| Two main reasons for me
|
| 1) More space for my mouse when playing games. I prefer a low
| sens and full sized keyboards are a legitimate problem for this
|
| 2) Desk space. If I'm not playing games it's also helpful to
| have space for a notebook next to my keyboard when working, or
| my MIDI controller while making music.
| slightwinder wrote:
| They are small in number of keys, not in size. Moving hands too
| much is not benefitial for typing, so why bother with it? If
| you need more keys, you can just attatch an extra keyboard,
| macropad/numberpad or other input-device, reconfigure it with
| specific settings and waste all the space you want.
| rovr138 wrote:
| Some people like them.
|
| I use a kinesis advantage which is not small.
| squarefoot wrote:
| If you're lucky, you can find old IBM model M keyboards for
| free, or close. I got two, first one like 25 years ago from a
| surplus store for like 10 Euros of today and the second one a
| few years later for free as it was being thrown away by a
| government office "because it doesn't fit the rack drawer and
| doesn't have windows keys". I'm still using the first one,
| which is old enough to carry a shiny Lotus 1-2-3 version 2.2
| sticker on it. Those are rock solid beasts; I already know I'll
| die a lot before any of these keyboards will fail, and I don't
| plan to die soon:).
|
| No USB connection of course as those keyboards predate the
| standard, but any cheapo PS/2-USB converter will work.
| bluGill wrote:
| I've been told that not all PS2-USB converters work. But many
| cheap ones do, so just get from a place with a good return
| policy.
|
| Beware that the Model M draws more power than USB is allowed
| to supply. I've never heard of this being a problem in the
| real world, but I always plug my model M into a powered hub
| to ensure there is plenty of power available.
| mohaine wrote:
| Many PS2-USB "converters" are really just "adapters" that
| actually rely on the keyboard to do the heavy lifting
| internally. These do not work at all. It sounds like it has
| gotten better but it used to be quite hard to get an M
| working. Of course these isn't much(any?) other ~40 year
| old PC equipment that is this easy to get working.
| squarefoot wrote:
| > I've been told that not all PS2-USB converters work.
|
| True converters do. Those that don't work are just
| connector adapters relying on the mainboard to recognize
| that a PS/2 device is connected although on a USB port. To
| be sure you get a working adapter, never buy single port
| ones as they often contain just connection wires. All
| converters I tried with dual PS2 port, to be used with
| mouse and keyboard together, contained a real protocol
| converter and worked flawlessly on all PCs. An image search
| for "ps/2 usb" returns may examples of the two converters
| types.
| semi-extrinsic wrote:
| I've been very happy with a layout that is a middle ground
| between full-size and 60%. Basically you have 18 keys on the
| right-hand side that can be toggled (using a dedicated button)
| between arrows + pageup/down + insert etc, and the traditional
| numpad layout. It is very rare that I need both numpad and
| arrow keys at the exact same time, so I don't lose any
| functionality but my hands are more centered towards the front.
| Even things like Blender that rely heavily on numpad for 3D
| navigation works well.
|
| My model is old, looks like the most similar current model is
| the Coolermaster "Masterkeys Pro M" (RGB or white LEDs
| available):
|
| https://www.coolermaster.com/us/en-us/catalog/peripheral/key...
|
| Picture of the layout:
|
| https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/cdn.coolermaster.com/asse...
| peteri wrote:
| Another name for this layout is 96 key. I built my own using
| a YMDK melody 96 layout but before that build I bought the
| VictSing 96 key which was super cheap (around $50 delivered
| from the US) and apart from the keycaps having awful legends
| wasn't too bad.
|
| I did a bit of blog series as I went through the design and
| build process after my Model M died after a coffee accident.
| https://www.ibbotson.co.uk/tag/keyboards/
|
| I'm mulling over doing a custom design with a ISO/US layout
| so I can kill the function key row but keep both ~` and the
| escape key. Basically the "Vortex Vibe" but with an ISO
| layout.
| chrisBob wrote:
| My primary keyboard now is a Kinesis Freestyle Pro, and my
| favorite feature isn't the split, it that it's programmable and
| has a split spacebar.
|
| The main reason I moved my hands around before was to use the
| arrow keys, and now they are mapped to [right spacebar] +
| [IJKL]. I have also expanded a little to use U and O as
| backspace and delete on that same layer. I don't think I could
| ever memorize 3+ layers, but this small use of a second layer
| that is very easy to access has been great for me.
| allenu wrote:
| I prefer the smaller footprint because it means I don't have to
| reach too far to the right when I use my trackpad.
|
| I've been using a HHKB for the past 3 years and have gotten
| used to not having to stretch my right arm to reach the
| trackpad. You get used to the arrow keys being in a different
| place as well, especially with the HHKB which requires you to
| press a function key to use them.
| jeffchien wrote:
| Many commenters offered reasons to like 60%, but as a TKL
| enthusiast myself, I'm inclined to think that it's mostly a
| supply issue, because I've seen many 75% and TKL group buys get
| a ton of demand. 60% is just easier to machine: the top is just
| a frame and thus doesn't need various holes for ESC, function
| groups, etc.
| least wrote:
| Because other people want small keyboards, I'd imagine.
| throwaway81523 wrote:
| If I want a small keyboard I want it with a built in pointing
| device, and those are hard to find. Lenovo trackpoint
| keyboard is one of the few I can think of.
| Semaphor wrote:
| The Logitech K400 (sold as a smart TV keyboard mainly) is
| pretty well known, and they have a bunch of other keyboards
| with touchpad.
| airbreather wrote:
| Yeah it's great (I have 5 of them) for remote keyboard
| for netflix with bigscreen, or for raspberry pi where you
| can just plug in one USB thing and have keyboard/mouse,
| but I don't think many people would cope with it for
| ongoing use.
| rideontime wrote:
| UHK offers trackpads, trackballs, and trackpoints for all
| your tracking needs.
| https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/shop
| chr wrote:
| Tex in Taiwan also make keyboards with trackpoints.
|
| https://www.tex-design.com.tw/us-en/products.php?cid=17
| rualca wrote:
| > Why are so many keyboards tiny like this? If I want a small
| keyboard, I will just use a laptop.
|
| That makes absolutely no sense. Your choice of keyboard should
| not come attached to a monitor.
|
| Furthermore, laptop keyboards are notoriously unmaintainable
| and uncleanable.
|
| If all you want is to be able to use a nice keyboard that
| doesn't take over half your desk space, specially if it's
| already cramped, then this is the stuff you crave.
| est31 wrote:
| I don't get it either. Most of the custom mechanical keyboard
| market seems to focus on 60% keyboards, but personally I use
| keys beyond that set. The reasoning I read on the internet is
| that customizable keyboards let you choose the keys you
| actually need... But I've done a lot of thinking, I need keys
| beyond 60% all the time.
|
| My suspicion is that the market for TKL keyboards or even full
| keyboards is already served by the big brands so the custom
| vendors have a harder time.
| bcrosby95 wrote:
| No one I know using a 60% keyboard only uses the 60%. As
| someone else mentioned, you use things like the fn key.
|
| For my keyboard: fn + jkli (or fn + wsad) for arrow keys. fn
| + uo for page up/down. fn + hn for home/end. fn + <number>
| for f1-12.
|
| I rarely used insert/delete. I never used the number pad. I
| have my capslock set to be fn.
|
| I was tired of a full sized monster keyboard taking so much
| space on my desk. At first I tried TKL but enter key
| placement turned out to be awkward for me, so I switched it
| out for a 60% since there was going to be a learning curve
| regardless.
| est31 wrote:
| > fn + uo for page up/down.
|
| That would make the ctrl+ pg up/down shortcut that I use to
| switch between tabs in Firefox (or Kate) much harder. I'd
| suddenly have to press 3 keys at once instead of two.
| mypalmike wrote:
| You can just assign the functionality to different keys.
| Maybe fn with = and -.
| [deleted]
| square_usual wrote:
| I use a 60% and I find that shortcut easier on the 60
| than on a fullsize. I've mapped PgDn to Fn + ; and
| pressing Ctrl + Fn + ; feels easier than reaching for
| PgDn with my right hand.
| syshum wrote:
| >> I never used the number pad.
|
| I buy 15in or larger laptops specifically to get the 10key
| num pad built in.....
| jonfw wrote:
| What I really hate about that is that the keyboard isn't
| centered on my laptop, which means I'm either slightly
| lopsided on my screen or I'm bending my right wrist at a
| weird angle
| barkingcat wrote:
| I use numberpad extensively, to the point where if you gave
| me a keyboard with no alphabetical but only num pad, I'd be
| happy (and use fn keys to get at the rest)
|
| It's a change of mindset.
| mypalmike wrote:
| I was surprised how easy it was to adapt to a 60% keyboard.
| Some obvious fn key mappings for pgup, pgdn, home, end,
| (arrows) and del (backspace) cover the bulk of it.
| f1refly wrote:
| Most keyboard nerds I know use either something like
| https://neo-layout.org or something completely custom. It's
| much better than a fullsize keyboards because your hands
| truly never leave the homerow for anything and your hand is
| much closer to your mouse.
| pmontra wrote:
| Is there any keyboard like that but with a touchpad below
| the space bar?
|
| Rationale: I used a mouse only for (a very few) games in
| the last 20 years and moving the hand to reach the mouse
| loses time. The touchpad is good enough to select and click
| stuff on screen (and a touchscreen would improve the
| experience for a few buttons here and there.) Furthermore
| the mouse has literally more friction than a finger on the
| touchpad (the ball ages ago, the laser now, the cord, the
| batteries, etc)
| f1refly wrote:
| I don't know of one, but I'm pretty sure you could hack
| something with a small enough wacom tablet if you really
| wanted. I used a wacom tablet for some time when my mouse
| broke and the store didn't have the one I wanted.
| Anyways, trackpoints are readily available and can easily
| be added even to custom keyboards. They're even more
| handy than trackpads in my opinion, since with a trackpad
| you still have to leave the keys while you can install
| the trackpoint at the hjn-join or the fgv-join (or
| whatever the layout puts there, for me it'd be nrt and
| aea).
| kohlerm wrote:
| Those who really care that much about keyboards often want an
| efficient touch typing experience. Many people think that
| less keys are more efficient (easier to reach and easier to
| find without looking) and you just use layers. I tend to
| agree with that point of view, but I am not yet at 40% ;-)
| __MatrixMan__ wrote:
| I found that switching to a 40% actually caused me to use a
| wider variety of "keys" then with the 105-key that I switched
| from. The ability to control which keys go where in the
| firmware opens a lot of doors.
|
| For instance, I made a "nav" layer and put the arrowkeys
| under hjkl because I'm a vim person, and then I put Home,
| PgUp, PgDn, End under "nm,." because it made sense to me
| geometrically, and now I use those keys all the time.
|
| Or another one: I brought "Insert" to mirror "Tab" and
| configured my zsh to do bash-style tab completion on "tab"
| and to autocomplete from history on "insert". Who the hell
| uses insert regularly? Me apparently.
|
| Rewiring my brain took some doing, but I'm quite happy with
| the results.
| boogies wrote:
| > Who ... uses insert regularly?
|
| Me for Shift+Inserting my X Primary selection (eg. HN block
| quotes. Virtually every single time I ever try to use any
| non-free OS I end up highlighting something,
| (Control|Alt|Command)+Tabbing, Shift+Inserting or middle-
| clicking, and hating my painful life when I realize I have
| to tab back and manually copy the text with a keyboard
| chord or dragging down a menu).
| rubenbe wrote:
| Can you say which keyboard you're using? Because the idea
| of having hjkl available everywhere sounds appealing.
| lolive wrote:
| I do that with xmodmap under Linux (remapping that
| useless CapsLock key into yet another modifier key. So
| capsLock+jkl; are my arrows for years, capsLock+space is
| my return key, etc). But I would love to have a keyboard
| that is directly programmable so I can plug it in any OS
| and enjoy my re mappings without tricky configuration. Is
| QMK doing such a thing?
| __MatrixMan__ wrote:
| I'm using a planck ez, but the layout is heavily custom:
|
| http://www.keyboard-layout-
| editor.com/#/gists/eb0696806831fc...
|
| That layout is a bit outdated, i moved super to the outer
| corner so I can palm press+-hold it to manipulate windows
| in i3 with hjkl. Palm+tap is still enter.
|
| The left hand uses fdsa to move the mouse and vcxz to
| send mouse scroll wheel events--so it's mirrored hjkl
| action.
|
| I've done away with the number row in favor of a 10 key,
| and then mapped the symbols to their finger on the
| opposite hand, so '@' still goes with 2, but in a
| different kind of way.
|
| Any symbol with a mate ()[]{} is similarly mirrored
| (index fingers do these). The idea is that if I ever hurt
| a hand (which is likely, since I'm a rock climber) I can
| map a foot pedal to activate a "switch sides" macro and
| I'll be able to exploit the symmetry to learn to do
| without whichever hand faster. This hypothesis is
| untested.
|
| I originally designed it to give my right pinky finger a
| break, so the hands are further apart to give the index
| fingers more options and enter is a right palm-press.
|
| Another nice thing about warping your mind to fit inside
| a tiny keyboard is that you can easily "embed" those
| neural mappings to a larger keyboard. I have an ergodox
| ez as well--which has plenty of keys, but I've just
| ported my planck layout inside of the ergodox and I
| really just ignore the other keys. I still like it
| because I can tent either side at different angles, which
| you can't do with the planck.
|
| http://imgur.com/a/j3dik8b
|
| Disclaimer: this is not a hobby for those unwilling to
| burn a lot of time tinkering. Also, "maybe it's a bug in
| my keyboard firmware" is a new and unwelcome thought that
| must be made peace with. But it's fun for me, and pinky
| doesn't hurt anymore, so that's something.
| cestith wrote:
| Not the parent, but that's the default place for the
| arrow keys on my Keyboardio Model 01. In Vim I can use
| them as-is, but on the Fn layer they're arrow keys. The
| wsad cluster under Fn are mouse pointer keys.
|
| In fact I only have two complaints about the default
| layout, both pretty minor. One is that {}[]\| are on the
| Fn layer which took some adjustment for programming. The
| other is that with alt and space side by side, I
| sometimes hit alt+space which on macOS becomes some non-
| ASCII space character that looks just like ASCII space. A
| find and replace for that works wonders.
| i_am_proteus wrote:
| This sort of thing works on any QMK keyboard.
| rfoo wrote:
| During very early days these DIY mech keyboards are all
| someone's hobby project, finding a low cost, easy to program
| microcontroller with USB HID support and enough GPIO pins for
| keyboard matrix is surprisingly hard. ATmega32u4 (and
| particularly Teensy/Arduino Pro Micro) is popular at that
| time, the two popular off shelf boards only have 18 GPIO pins
| usable, the absolutely maximum key count you can get is
| 9x9=81 keys, not even fitting a TKL, and that's assuming
| extremely weird routing, for a more sensible routing you wire
| a 6x12 keyboard matrix, that's 72 keys max, which is why most
| custom keyboard from these days are 60/67 keys.
|
| After that it's basically a cultural thing.
| murermader wrote:
| You don't actually have less keys with a 60% keyboard. You
| have the same amount of keys, but packed onto function
| layers.
|
| Instead of reaching with your fingers to far-away keys, you
| will press a function key, and another key that is closer to
| your hands. This results in keys that are normally further
| away on 100% keyboards to become easier to press, because you
| don't have to move your whole hand just to reach that key.
| speedgoose wrote:
| To me it sounds like you have less keys but workarounds
| that you may prefer.
| xvector wrote:
| Layers are way faster and more versatile than having more
| keys. 60-65% is pretty ideal when you take the time to
| set up layers.
| rovr138 wrote:
| That's a memory and repetition issue.
| rvense wrote:
| Having more keys is a workaround for not having extra
| layers :)
| zwog wrote:
| But you could have all the keys and still use layers.
| benhurmarcel wrote:
| Before getting any hardware for such a keyboard, I worked
| on the configuration I'd use. Defining the layers and
| placing all the keys I wanted.
|
| I initially though I wanted more keys, but as I went I
| found out I wouldn't use them. It made a lot more sense
| to have a couple of layers on the thumbs and place all I
| needed around the rest position. In the end I had nothing
| important to put on extra keys.
| 1996 wrote:
| Have you heard about how people who grew up with MP3 prefer
| music that's not lossless encoded but that's missing the same
| frequencies as in mp3 files?
|
| It's the same, except with keyboards: if you grew up with a
| laptop, you want a 60% keyboard because it's "natural".
|
| If you don't believe it, just look at /r/MechanicalKeyboards
| on reddit: 9/10 posts are about 60% keyboards.
| square_usual wrote:
| I grew up with desktops with big ass full sized keyboards
| and gravitated towards 60/65% over time. It's just much
| more comfortable to use.
| rualca wrote:
| > It's the same, except with keyboards: if you grew up with
| a laptop, you want a 60% keyboard because it's "natural".
|
| I don't use a 60% keyboard, but I do use a tenkeyless
| keyboard because I do love my F keys.
|
| My choice has zero to do with laptop keyboard. In fact, I
| hate laptop keyboards. Laptop keyboards are the result of
| severe design constraints imposed by the laptop's form
| factor, and most of them are pure crap to begin with.
|
| Tenkeyless and 60% keyboards don't take over half your desk
| for no good reason, and provide you with everything you
| want or need. And they are symmetric too.
|
| To put it differently, there is absolutely no reason
| whatsoever a regular user going about their regular day
| would need a standard keyboard. The tenkey section is one
| of those oddities that barely anyone touches ever, and more
| often than not only serve as indicators of when you need to
| clean your keyboard.
| uberduper wrote:
| They put those keys on other layers. Like on many keyboards,
| you have a Fn key which activates a layer that makes the F8
| key a play/pause button or w/e. Just put the less used but
| still necessary keys on another layer.
|
| Or configure certain keys to do something different with a
| double or triple tap. Double tap lshift = [ Double tap rshift
| = ], etc.
|
| They are highly configurable.
| est31 wrote:
| Moving your hand to the key is faster than pressing a key
| combo needed for it or double tapping. At least for me it
| is.
| uberduper wrote:
| Moving your hand is also more likely to result in a
| repetitive stress injury.
| [deleted]
| germ wrote:
| Heavy keys as well, and harsh bottom-out.
|
| There's a ton of rethinking what a keyboard is that is
| going on in the ergo space right now as to what a
| keyboard _should_ be and how they should function. From
| physical layouts, curvature, keymaps, layering and combos
| it's interesting to see the experimentation going on.
| These devices are going to be used for the rest of our
| lives, they should at least be non-harmful over time.
|
| Right now I'm using a GergoPlex, but my holy grail is a
| QMK'd DataHand. (And if you know who has one, please send
| them my way)
| RBerenguel wrote:
| You have already designed many keyboards, go on with a
| GergoHand! (happy Gergo, not Plex, user here)
| germ wrote:
| I wish it was that easy! There's so many mechanical parts
| to consider and CAD is not my strong suit.
|
| That being said, if someone wants to miniturise the
| LalBoard and rework it, I could design a PCB/firmware :)
| RBerenguel wrote:
| It was more of an "I dare you", not that it is that easy
| at all. To be fair, I don't think I'd find it more
| comfortable than a normal split keyboard
| robotmay wrote:
| Curiously I find the opposite: home-row typing, or using
| wrist rests etc and keeping my hands static, cause me
| quite bad RSI. Instead I use a very "floating" style of
| typing where my hands move very freely over the keyboard,
| kinda like playing the piano.
| elbows wrote:
| I've always felt the same way. My fingers naturally want
| to spread out, so pulling them close enough together to
| rest on the home keys causes a lot of tension.
| keybored wrote:
| Please substantiate that. From what I've heard these
| things can lead to injury:
|
| 1. Repeatedly/repetitively using small/weak/fine-motor
| muscles
|
| 2. Contorting your hands (like holding multiple modifirs
| with the same hand and also pressing whatever non-
| modifier)
|
| Moving your whole hand from the venerable home row to for
| example the nav cluster doesn't fall under any of the
| above, since you can move your arm with your shoulder. I
| have never had problems with using larger muscles like my
| shoulders all day for simple, non-strenuous tasks, and I
| haven't heard of people who have reported problems with
| it yet. I have however heard of people who have gotten in
| trouble because they repeatedly do tiny motions with
| their fingers or hands. Which is tempting since it can
| feel easier to use those muscles for precise control -- I
| certainly pen-write with my wrist too much when I should
| be using my shoulder more -- but can easily lead to
| fatigue or worse.
|
| I have had more problems with Emacs' modifier-heavy
| default keybindings than I've ever had with modifier-less
| peasant software like word processors, ergonomics-wise.
|
| It isn't a problem for me ergonomically to move to the
| arrow keys if I want to do a bunch of "meta" keys like
| move word right or left,[1] which is harder to do on som
| fn-keyboard where you both have to hold down the shift
| key _and_ the fn key. I also am able to use the arrow
| keys from the somewhat overrated home row, but that is on
| a non-configurable keyboard (remapped in software).
|
| I would say that people have a minor point when they say
| that moving your hands wastes time. Kind of like me going
| for a five minute walk every so often _wastes time_
| compared to sitting at my desk for eight hours straight.
| Now I'm putting a fine point on it, but I actually think
| that even a little bit of gross movement like that can be
| more beneficial than hurtful.
|
| I've used a cheap 60% keyboard for a while and it was
| never really my thing (just got it for the n-key
| rollover):
|
| 1. You can't reprogram the fn key on the keyboard (again
| if cheap)
|
| 2. You can't reprogram the fn key in software since it is
| effectively "blessed" (your OS can't see it)
|
| 3. Now you're stuck with whatever fn layout that _they_
| made, which is often subpar (example: my 60% has some fn-
| whatever combos that turn off keys or lock them which
| just causes problems whenever I accidentally press them
| (always accidentally))
|
| 4. Big Brand keyboards _are_ customizable but their
| software is likely to be too limited, which means that
| you have to buy somewhat boutique keyboards in order to
| truly map the fn layer business the way you want
|
| 5. I already alluded to how multi-modifier keybindings
| can be a pain: a lot of software assume that you use a
| regular keyboard so they will throw keybindings like
| Ctrl+Shift+PageUp at you, which might translate to
| something unwieldy like Fn+Ctrl+Shift+P. That's too much
| hassle. (Intellij is a real sinner in this regard.)
|
| I currently use a tenkeyless keyboard which gives me the
| only less-than-fullsize keyboard advantage that I care
| about: my mouse is closer.
|
| [1]: Yes, sometimes I use built-in/embedded editors or
| textfields (like Firefox's address bar) that are not Vim
| or Emacs; No, I don't want to configure every last
| software that I use that contain mini-editors to use some
| kind of Vim-like plugin so that I can e.g. move word-
| right with `w`.
| jeromenerf wrote:
| > From what I've heard these things can lead to injury
|
| I am not aware of real studies and conclusions on this
| matter. If you are subject to this problem, even finding
| professional expertise is difficult and eventually
| expensive. Investing 100-200 usd to experiment doesn't
| sound absurd. In my experience, enthusiast keyboard hold
| their value pretty well if you are not satisfied.
|
| Anyway, I like the small ortholinear keyboards with thumb
| keys because the whole keyboard is accessible with very
| little movements and combos do not require stretching.
| keybored wrote:
| Well if there are no real studies or conclusions then it
| could go either way. No one makes _investments_ based on
| hacker folklore; that's just an after the fact
| rationalization by people who were already enthusiasts.
|
| I have experimented myself. That was what that whole post
| was about. I am quite picky when it comes to keyboards so
| I have bought a few of them over the last year. But my
| experiments won't lead to "real studies", nor will anyone
| else's, so that point seems misplaced since you open your
| post by dismissing my anecdotes.
|
| Somewhat expensive keyboards is a particular hobby for
| people with disposable income. Programmers don't have
| some special need for typing speed or ergonomics compared
| to other office workers. If we did have a need for speed,
| for example, we would learn something like Plover since
| that would make us write at least twice as fast (at least
| for prose, but I type that quite often.) It also allows
| us to buy regular keyboards and not crazy expensive steno
| machines. But we don't: instead we do some minor
| "optimizations" with one-key-per-letter keyboards like
| use the home row 25% more and gain 200% more subjective
| empowerement (I've customized my keyboard in software to
| do the same thing).
|
| > Anyway, I like the small ortholinear keyboards with
| thumb keys because the whole keyboard is accessible with
| very little movements and combos do not require
| stretching.
|
| No modifier combos require stretching on a regular
| keyboard as well; notice how all the modifier keys are
| close together in case you need to press multiple ones at
| the same time, and at least a few of them (like control
| and shift, maybe "Windows" and Alt) should be on both
| sides of the keyboard. Regular keyboards don't have a
| stretching problem as long as you touch type.
| PlqnK wrote:
| I use CAPSLOCK as my fn key, it's right under my pinky,
| no need to move my hand. On my second layer I have arrow
| keys set on hjkl so in programs that don't support vim
| key bindings I can use them without moving my hand from
| the home row.
|
| This is a more efficient way to use the arrow keys
| compared to a standard keyboard where you have to move
| your hand out of the home row.
| benhurmarcel wrote:
| Not if you can activate the layer immediately with your
| thumb.
| qchris wrote:
| For what it's worth, this keyboard seems right up my alley.
| I'm currently on approximately a 60% keyboard, and I'm wary
| of using anything larger because I simply don't have the desk
| real estate for it. I have single board computers and power
| supplies and notepads and cables and sticky-notes coming out
| my ears, and going further up in keyboard size would cut down
| on my free space even more.
|
| My current Keychron fits the bill nicely, and I think this
| System76 is right in the same vein, except with some improved
| flexibility. I don't need a full-sized keyboard, I just want
| a comfortable keyboard with dedicated PageUp/Down + Home/End
| keys. Plus, for whatever it's worth, I'm digging my Pop!_OS
| distro, so knowing that their keyboard will play nice with it
| is an extra bonus.
| accelbred wrote:
| I'd swapped to 60% so I could put my mouse where the rest of
| the keyboard used to be. With home row front and center on a
| full size the mouse was way to the right which is quite
| uncomfortable. Moving to 60% was a major improvement.
| numpad0 wrote:
| ^ This was also how HHKB was born, IIUC. The guy designed
| it had issues with Sun Type 4 being way too wide to use
| with a mouse, and sketched down a sawed-off Type 4, and
| that got traction.
| momania wrote:
| As a programmer you need (or actually want) to make use of some
| of the most acrobatic shortcuts that cross a large portion of
| the keyboard. Having a smaller keyboard just makes that a lot
| more comfortable, because you don't need to have hands the size
| of King Kong to be able to utilise those shortcuts. :-)
| bregma wrote:
| Use vim and the command line. Why would I need anything other
| than a full-size mechanical clicky keyboard with full travel?
| My hands rarely stray off the home row.
| varispeed wrote:
| Do you have examples of such shortcuts? Apart from CTRL+C/X
| and CTRL+V I can't think of any useful?
| selfhoster11 wrote:
| Lots of IDEs have complicated keyboard chords. For
| IntelliJ, there's Alt+[1..9], Shift+F6, Ctrl+Alt+L, and
| others on a daily basis. Some of them cross basically the
| entire keyboard, and it's not convenient to use one hand to
| do so.
| douglaswlance wrote:
| Anything a computer can do can be assigned to a shortcut.
| jbki wrote:
| it makes zero sense that the space bar is the size that it is.
| carlesfe wrote:
| In my case, I would like to use a bigger keyboard, but I need a
| 60%-style layout for RSI reasons.
|
| Unless my right hand (mouse) is very close to my left one, I
| get RSI.
|
| I started using keyboards without a numpad first, then without
| the nav cluster. Nowadays I choose keyboard which are taller
| but narrower, so that I can get the most functionality but
| without needing to force my right arm too far away:
| https://tex.com.tw/products/shinobi?variant=16969883648090
| protomyth wrote:
| A number of years ago I ditched mice for a Logitech Tracman
| and it made a lot of difference in how my wrists felt each
| night.
| AzzieElbab wrote:
| I tried different trackballs but ended up using cheap
| vertical mice, helped a lot with shoulder pain
| eckza wrote:
| The Logitech MX Vertical is the GOAT mouse for these
| issues, IMO. I picked one up when my Microsoft Sculpt
| gave up the ghost, and I can't imagine ever going back.
|
| The Scuplt was about halfway to a vertical mouse; the MX
| Vertical is like, all the way there. It was disorienting
| at first, but I stuck it out for the first weird day or
| two and I can't say I've ever been happier with a mouse.
| Serow225 wrote:
| This company is dedicated to vertical ergo mouses, they
| offer some pretty neat features: https://evoluent.com/
| AzzieElbab wrote:
| I tried most top rated vertical mice, mx included, and
| ended up with delux wired one. My advise is to try them
| all before finding one that fits your hand
| gnud wrote:
| I've never had 'proper' RSI, but I solved all my wrist strain
| woes by simply placing the mouse smack bang in front of the
| space key, at a 270 degree angle, so moving the mouse to my
| left translates to the pointer moving up.
|
| It gives my right hand a much better position, it's quick to
| switch between mouse and keyboard, and it gives my elbows
| room to rest on the table.
|
| The only downside is that it requires a slightly deeper desk
| than having the mouse next to the keyboard, but you probably
| want space on the desk for your arms anyway.
| BigJ1211 wrote:
| I'm using a linear columnar split keyboard now (moonlander
| from zsa, redox from falbatech before that). That has done
| much more to reduce strain than anything else I tried.
|
| I would also highly recommend getting a trackball,
| personally I'm a programmer and have to rely on my hands
| despite having RSI and CTS.
| tgtweak wrote:
| I always wondered this too and it seems odd, but, over the last
| 5 years I'm noticing a trend of developers using their
| macbooks/ultrabooks as primary and they are used to that format
| and look for it in a workstation/docked keyboard.
|
| Personally my numpad is indispensable and I never understood
| the desire to have a tiny keyboard.
| retzkek wrote:
| Most "tiny" keyboard layouts put the numpad one keypress
| away, right under your hand. With an ortho keyboard you don't
| even have to retrain muscle memory. There's very little
| downside.
| swalsh wrote:
| The Model M really was the pinnacle of keyboards.
| bluGill wrote:
| The much older model F was very good - some people tell me
| better. I believe I've tried one in the past, but it was so
| long ago that I can't remember. There were a lot of great
| keyboards back then. Keyboard quality went off a cliff in the
| mid 1990s.
|
| Someday I want to find a Northgate omni-key from that era
| which people tell me is the best.
| uberduper wrote:
| That board looks like it's for north facing switches. Like the
| Drop CTRL. This seems to be a universally disliked switch
| orientation.
| accelbred wrote:
| North facing is needed for backlit keycaps, and south facing is
| needed for cherry profile (not the common OEM profile) keycaps.
| If using OEM/XDA/DSA there wont be interference with north
| facing. South facing does prevent use of through switch leds
| with at least OEM profile. Personally, I use south facing since
| I use SMD rgb and transparent housings with POM keycaps and the
| leds on the front look nice.
| BeniBoy wrote:
| I am the only one that is very ill-at-ease with that PCB [1]? The
| routing seems.. off? No straight trace, irregular component
| placement. Its the kind of work where seemingly "superficial"
| concern like that are in fact quite usefull, a clean PCB makes it
| easier to find issues and do repairs.
|
| [1]:https://github.com/system76/launch/blob/master/pcb/launch-
| pc...
| HarryBeadle wrote:
| Yeah, this PCB is... horrible.
| RL_Quine wrote:
| Looks like it was made with TopoR autorouter.
|
| https://www.eremex.com/products/topor/
| myself248 wrote:
| Looks beautiful to me. Rectilinear tracks were an artifact of
| early layout software; there's no electrical need for them.
|
| I find it visually easier to trace tracks that aren't perfectly
| parallel, too. This is splendid in that regard, pairs are
| obviously pairs, but their spacing to other pairs is variable
| (which also suggests slow transitions in impedance rather than
| step-changes; another benefit).
|
| If anything, this looks like it moves a lot of components out
| into their own space, where they won't be shadowed by others in
| case of rework. Looks great to me.
| adolph wrote:
| So many words about the keyboard but nothing about the
| microcontroller. I wonder what they will use?
| swalsh wrote:
| You can see it in the source:
|
| https://github.com/system76/launch/blob/master/pcb/launch-bo...
|
| I think it is a ATmega32U4-MU
| tumblewit wrote:
| i've been keeping an eye for this launch. System76 is taking an
| approach of tiling and gnome combination for their distro with
| the primary goal of making it more keyboard friendly for
| developers. A keyboard launch is basically going in that
| direction. I wonder if their laptops will also take this
| direction but personally i would like to see a full i3 spin (like
| fedora) instead because in my experience on an intel pc with
| intel graphics that too the gnome UI is still buggy. I feel like
| there is too much going on and if developers are really the focus
| then adding gnome bloat isn't going to solve anything. i love
| popOS but i can't stand gnome ...
| vermaden wrote:
| I am currently compatible with two kinds of keyboards.
|
| - ThinkPad 7-row laptop ANSI keyboard (like in T420)
|
| - 87 keys ANSI keyboard (does not have to be mechanical) [1]
|
| All other keyboard layouts literally does not exist for me - not
| matter how 'hackable' or 'open source' or configurable they are
| ...
|
| [1]
| https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/images/products/large_9...
| umvi wrote:
| Is there any eMMC or other non-volatile storage on the PCB? I
| tried looking through the PCB files but I don't have KiCad.
|
| I've always wanted a keyboard with a keylogger inside the
| keyboard itself. That way it doesn't matter which OS or computer
| it is attached to, every keystroke is secretly logged inside the
| keyboard (to be dumped at a later time for examination)
|
| Edit: looks like the microcontroller is an Atmel chip [0] which
| has either 16/32 KB of flash depending on which one. I'm not sure
| which the system76 keyboard uses. I'm assuming part of that flash
| is for the firmware itself, but maybe there is extra room for
| logs as well?
|
| [0]
| https://github.com/system76/launch/blob/master/pcb/docs/Atme...
| roel_v wrote:
| You can buy tiny usb (in the past, PS/2) dongles (more like
| pass through devices) that do just that.
| umvi wrote:
| Yes, I have one, but it's easily removed and replaced. No one
| would suspect a keylogger inside the keyboard itself.
| lionkor wrote:
| What use would such a keylogger have, beyond general curiosity
| about "which words do i type most"?
| umvi wrote:
| Well it represents the truth of everything typed on the
| keyboard, which is useful on shared PCs. Browser histories
| can be cleared, for example, but the keylogger will still
| contain every keystroke you typed before covering your
| tracks.
|
| Plus, it can be used for nefarious purposes to harvest
| credentials, which is probably illegal most of the time, but
| might be useful for penetration testing and such.
| Hamuko wrote:
| I've basically given up on finding a mechanical keyboard since
| only Matias actually makes any with a Mac keyboard layout and
| finding a good/available 100% PCB seems nigh-on impossible.
| bengale wrote:
| I use a keychron on my Mac, its been working great for me.
| uberduper wrote:
| Keychron, gmmk, drop, ducky.. filco? These are all boards you
| can add to cart right now.
| randmeerkat wrote:
| "Designed for Mac
|
| Unlike other keyboards on the market claiming to be Mac-
| friendly, Das Keyboard Professional for Mac is specifically
| designed for maximum compatibility. Give your Mac some love
| with the best mechanical keyboard on the planet."
|
| https://www.daskeyboard.com/model-s-professional-for-mac/
| Hamuko wrote:
| > _Designed for Mac_
|
| This means "we changed the keycaps and remapped two keys" in
| the mechanical keyboard world. Trust me, this isn't my first
| time looking through these. There's nothing "designed for
| Mac" about that. Just look at the non-Mac Model S
| Professional. They look literally the same except for the
| keycaps.
| YetAnotherNick wrote:
| What's the problem with that? Assuming it works as
| intended.
| Hamuko wrote:
| Allow this 60-second video to express my feelings about
| these "Mac" keyboards: https://youtu.be/7haqnQvrYfI
| jagger27 wrote:
| Just get replacement keycaps with Mac legends and remap with
| software or firmware. That's what I do with my keyboards.
| Hamuko wrote:
| But I want one with a Mac keyboard layout, not just keycaps.
| jagger27 wrote:
| Any keyboard with QMK can be remapped to a Mac layout. Also
| Macs have supported positional key remapping since forever.
| Hamuko wrote:
| They can't. There's literally a different layout of keys.
| Unless your remapping actually moves, removes and adds
| physical keys, they can't.
| jagger27 wrote:
| I'm telling you this as a person with half a dozen Mac-
| layout custom mechanical keyboards on my desk and
| shelves: they can and I wouldn't have it any other way.
| Command belongs next to Space, I agree.
|
| Edit: I see. You want four modifiers on the left. That's
| pretty uncommon. I remap Caps Lock to Control so I leave
| Fn in the bottom left.
| Hamuko wrote:
| Based on my experience, I bet none of your keyboards have
| the function key in the correct place.
| jagger27 wrote:
| Function is fine, but Control gets moved to (in my
| opinion a better place) Caps Lock.
|
| The thing is that what you're asking for isn't
| impossible. The keycap support is there. A small tweak to
| the plate and PCB would do the trick. It's funny though,
| Apple doesn't put Fn on their full size keyboards.
| Hamuko wrote:
| > _Apple doesn't put Fn on their full size keyboards._
|
| I'm looking at my full-size Apple keyboard and there is a
| Fn. It's just not where >99% of mechanical keyboard
| manufacturers think it is.
| uberduper wrote:
| Which keys are you referring to?
| Hamuko wrote:
| Cmd, Alt, Fn, F13~F19 are usually the problem areas, with
| Fn being located in a completely different wrong part of
| the keyboard, messing up the modifier key row.
| bjoli wrote:
| Matias makes probably the nicest feeling switches of any modern
| company, though. They seems to have some QA problems though.
| Hamuko wrote:
| Maybe one day I'll break down and just order the Tactile Pro.
| I've literally never been able to find another mechanical
| keyboard with an actual honest Mac layout.
| hellweaver666 wrote:
| You should take a look at Keychron, they make a wide variety of
| "Mac first" designed mechanical keyboards.
| Hamuko wrote:
| I can't see a single keyboard on their website with a Mac
| layout.
| MivLives wrote:
| I had a k2 from them. It had a switch on the side that
| shifted from Windows to Mac layout, and also included
| keycaps for both. Realistically with QMK the layout is
| whatever you want on the custom side.
| jakearmitage wrote:
| To the keyboard enthusiasts lurking here: what do I buy in order
| to get less latency? I already dropped X in order to get less
| software in my way, but I also want to get hardware out of my
| way.
| kscottz wrote:
| Why don't they call it open source hardware? All the parts appear
| to comply with the OSHWA standard. This product could be
| certified[0] fairly quickly.
|
| [0] https://certification.oshwa.org/
| autocorr wrote:
| So cool that they're using the QMK firmware and open hardware.
| They also include a split space-bar, taking one of your digits
| "off the bench" :) [1] I made a crazy ergonomic keyboard, but I
| think the most useful things in practice are to have a keyboard
| be _programmable_ and to have multiple keys for the thumbs to
| use.
|
| Backspace is one of the top three most used keys for common
| computer usage, putting it on the thumb is a huge win over the
| corner to be used with the pinky (or a Shift, Control, Enter,
| etc.). The layout is otherwise fairly conservative with dedicated
| function keys, arrow keys, and navigation keys (albeit in a non-
| standard cluster).
|
| [1] see key layout and mapping: http://www.keyboard-layout-
| editor.com/#/gists/8ec5e9026d616e...
| fouric wrote:
| > Backspace is one of the top three most used keys for common
| computer usage
|
| Where did you get this from? I'm trying to come up with a good
| layout for my Dactyl-Manuform, so it would be very helpful to
| know which keys are the most commonly used.
| slazaro wrote:
| Every time I read about people's obsessions with keyboards I feel
| like an outsider. Am I weird? I've been using the same Logitech
| K120 that costs around 10EUR/$10, my muscle memory is important.
|
| The keys are in the usual places instead of multi-function keys,
| arrow keys are separated, it has a numpad... I'd like to have
| dedicated media keys, but that's the only thing I'd change. I
| keep buying it and have spare ones just in case.
| quasarj wrote:
| Unsure, but if it's the layouts you hate, there are plenty of
| great standard full size layout keyboards with mechanical keys.
| Of course, mechanical keys may not be for everyone, but I love
| them. I'd say check out my current favorite keyboard, the MK
| Typist:
| https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_det...
|
| I'm also fond of the Kailh BOX White switches, but they aren't
| for everyone.
| myself248 wrote:
| Oh thank you, I thought I was the only one. I'm using the same
| Focus 6000 since 1992-ish.
|
| Recently I've been trying to introduce a Cherry G86-series SPOS
| keyboard, since it has a giant pile of relegendable/remappable
| keys that I want to use for CAD stuff. I've gotten all the
| remapping done and that works well enough, but just plain
| typing on the QWERTY portion is a PITA. Small r-shift key has
| me hunting every time, I think I'm gonna have to glue sandpaper
| to it or something. The Esc key is on the wrong row and it
| throws me off every time, etc. Muscle memory is huuuuuuge.
| rkangel wrote:
| I do know what you mean - there's a standard keyboard layout,
| it works well, there are plenty of keyboards using it. But
| then, I do care about the action of my keys - it's a small
| detail but I spend all day in front of a keyboard - and so I
| have a >PS100 Das Keyboard. It's all a question of degrees.
|
| Maybe also there's a component of 'expression of self'. We are
| individuals with individual personalities. As coders our
| keyboard is important so it's a more productive medium than
| most to express our individual tastes.
| ethanbond wrote:
| The way I view it is muscle memory is important because you use
| the tool so frequently. For the same reason, continuous minor
| improvements can add up quickly.
|
| People definitely go overboard but I think it's worth it to
| experiment a little bit and see if you can gradually optimize
| some things you do a lot. I'm a big fan of the Ergodox
| keyboards and having a decent number of layers. For example,
| holding W turns my right hand into a window manager. Holding F
| turns my right hand into an app switch (H = Chrome, J =
| IntelliJ etc). All of this is on/near the home row so it's
| minimally straining.
|
| Learning curves on new keyboards are awful though!
| zaat wrote:
| No you are not weird, you are the standard, and that's why you
| are likely to have no difficulties to get your favorite
| keyboard at comfortable price in the foreseeable future.
|
| The weird ones are us, the custom mechanical keyboard
| enthusiasts, and because we are niche and have particular needs
| we pay much more and have much more to discuss.
| sergiosgc wrote:
| It's a tool you put many hours of use into. Every professional
| in every area is like that about their tools.
|
| Lucky you to have set your preference on a cheap keyboard. I
| use a Logitech MX Keys everywhere I can. It costs ten times as
| much, though.
| lm28469 wrote:
| > Every time I read about people's obsessions with keyboards I
| feel like an outsider. Am I weird?
|
| As soon as you start digging in any type of hobby you'll find
| people going crazy about things you will not understand at all.
| From audiophiles, to barbecue enthusiasts, knife collectors,
| wood workers, if you go deep enough in the rabbit hole you'll
| feel like an alien
|
| I think some personalities are just drawn to these kind of
| things. They want "the best" and enter an interminable quest or
| discussing, comparing, building, fighting with other people
| about "what's the best", &c. I know because I'm part of it in
| some aspects of my life
| m463 wrote:
| I used to love apple desktop keyboards.
|
| Then they went to the flat aluminum ones and I couldn't feel
| the keys. The concave keys were traded in for flat keys and I
| could no longer center my fingers and feel the edges of the
| keys.
|
| So I hunted around and tried a bunch of keyboards. mechanical,
| mechanical knockoffs, clicky, smooth.
|
| I ended up with a topre realforce rgb. Extremely solid keys.
| Very smooth throw, and adjustable activation point.
|
| The other mechanical keys like cherry don't feel as solid. They
| wiggle side to side. The topre has a solid base and a
| cylindrical to guide the keys as they depress.
|
| I didn't want rgb, but in the end I set it to single color dim
| and I can find the keys in a dark room, which is great.
|
| Later I went back and tried my old apple keyboard and gah it
| felt like typing on bubble wrap. But I would not have known and
| I would have been happy if apple didn't change things around.
| enriquto wrote:
| Why the staggered layout? I'd kill for a laptop with a matrix key
| disposition (called "ortholinear" in some circles).
| kqr wrote:
| Yeah, this one keeps surprising me. It's not like moving to
| aligned rows would be a huge transition like e.g. moving to
| Colemak. We could just make the keyboard like that and we'll be
| done with the transition in 40 or so years.
|
| (Of course I know many reasons why that's not happening. I'm
| just frustrated by the staggerphilia all around.)
| shirro wrote:
| I already have more staggered keyboards than I can use from 60%
| to full size. Not much incentive to buy more unless you are
| Chryosan22 and need all the keyboards. But I don't have an
| ortho. I am curious to try one but I know from experience
| something like a plank would be too limited. I don't mind
| giving up the keypad but I like 6 rows and nav keys. I might be
| more likely to buy an ortho variant just for something
| different.
| enriquto wrote:
| > I like 6 rows and nav keys.
|
| This has nothing to do with being staggered or not. I use a
| typematrix 2030 and it has function keys, arrows, and
| everything, in a split and matricial layout.
| shirro wrote:
| Ideally I would be looking for an affordable and
| customisable mechanical with sockets and open firmware that
| is a matrix rather than a specialised ergo/split.
|
| Most "enthusiast" ortho mechanicals seem to be smaller like
| the plank and appeal to the people who like layers. I know
| I don't enjoy lots of layer shifting with smaller
| keyboards.
|
| I have been tempted to build something like an XD75 which
| is 75 ortho keys in a 60% size. I have also been
| considering doing a hand wire. More for the fun of making
| stuff than any necessity.
|
| There are bigger orthos aimed at point of sale and ergo
| users but their features are a bit different.
| dsr_ wrote:
| Have you seen that X-Bows is pre-selling their 3rd
| generation, now programmable with QMK?
|
| - ortho
|
| - angled but not split
|
| - replaceable MX-style switches
|
| - 86 keys
|
| - lights, no whistles
| enriquto wrote:
| I can vouch for the XD75; the version where you simply
| plug-in the switches is really straightforward to build.
| I'm still using the typematrix because my switches for
| the XD75 are too bulky and noisy, but may replace them in
| the future. Configuring the layout with qmx is also
| straightforward, and you don't need any layers with a
| large board like the xd75 (I only have one for the
| "firmware upload" combo).
| the_gipsy wrote:
| https://github.com/saoto28/pineapple60/
| 1MachineElf wrote:
| Thank you so much for sharing that. I even have the T470s &
| T460s to make this dream come true. 2021 goal set.
| O_H_E wrote:
| That is AWESOME.
| kohlerm wrote:
| This is f*cking amazing!
| iFreilicht wrote:
| Yes, ortholinear laptop keyboard would be the dream! I doubt
| it's ever going to happen, though.
| enriquto wrote:
| They just need to make a laptop with easily swappable pcb of
| standard size.
| roel_v wrote:
| Why would anyone want ortolinear layout in non-split keyboards?
| Do you sit with your elbows scrunched up in front of your body?
| enriquto wrote:
| why would you want staggered non-split keyboards?
| roel_v wrote:
| Because your arm is at an angle to the rows of the keys
| (with a non-split keyboard), so when you extend a finger,
| it doesn't go straight up. With staggered keys, you can
| reach the key on a row up by only extending your finger
| (i.e, moving it in line with the direction of your
| underarm), without having to move any other fingers aside.
| enriquto wrote:
| This argument may justify that staggered keys are better
| for one hand and much worse for the other hand. Your
| hands are symmetric, why would you want an asymmetric
| keyboard (split or not)?
| roel_v wrote:
| How do you mean? For both the left and right hand, you
| extend the fingers, pretty much symmetrically. It's not
| perfectly straight depending on how the staggering is
| done, but straight up is worse than all the alternatives.
| quasarj wrote:
| There's definitely room for both types of keyboard. For me, I
| have tried ortholinear, but I just can't handle it. Or more
| specifically - I use too many keyboards during the day, and
| switching one of them to a linear layout and not the rest is a
| nightmare. Switching them all would be expensive... maybe one
| day. But I don't feel like you get enough benefit to justify
| it.
| woile wrote:
| This is great, I hope more companies were like system76. It's
| seems to me they are starting to produce their own hardware, but
| into the open.
|
| If I'm allowed to dream, they could be an open Mac some day. We
| sell you this optimized hardware and software, but you own it, do
| whatever you want.
| thayne wrote:
| No tenkey sadly. I know a lot of keyboard enthusiasts don't like
| tenkeys, but I would have a hard time giving that up. Although,
| it would be nice to have the tenkey on the left so I don't have
| to move my hand over it to get to the mouse.
| phowat wrote:
| I have a separate tenkey placed on the left side of my
| keyboard. Works pretty well for me.
| eqvinox wrote:
| Why are we still making keyboards with a "Caps Lock" key on them
| in 2021? It's actively harmful on a functional level. And when
| you strip the function, the large key doesn't make sense anymore.
|
| I'd rather have 2 regular-size blank keys in its place (& if you
| really need Caps Lock you can map it to one of them.)
|
| (My Caps Lock is remapped to be a Compose key, but I'd rather
| have _2_ keys there that I can remap. The space is there and it
| 's nicely reachable.)
| shmerl wrote:
| Why not use Unix layout?
| wishinghand wrote:
| I'd be much more excited if they released a laptop variant with
| ortholinear keys or close to it if they decide to stagger the
| columns a bit.
| jeromenerf wrote:
| ... and a split space bar and QMK!
|
| The offer is pretty good for external keyboard enthusiasts. One
| can buy a controller, hand wire switches to it and scatter them
| over a sphere, with custom celestial keycaps for a hundred
| dollars. On laptop though, I have not seen much more than
| retrofitting old Lenovo keyboards on newer generations, with
| some pretty fragile firmware patches.
| IgorBog61650384 wrote:
| I love the idea but is scaring me a bit security wise. This can
| be a really hidden persistence method for malware.
|
| Imagine the following scenario - memory only malware lands on my
| computers, identifies the keyboard, uploads a malicious firmware
| and disappears. Using basic heuristics like time and entropy it
| detect when I logon to the machine, get my passwords, understands
| my OS, and what for a hidden signal by the memory only malware.
| If the signal is not detected for a while because I rebooted my
| computer or reinstalled it, It unlocks the computer with the
| password at a time of inactivity, and types in a command like
| wget/curl to to download the malware again, and so on.
|
| I think this can even be used for Virtual Machine escape, as many
| VMs just pass-through HID commands, so its possible the firmware
| can be updated from a VM.
|
| Kudos to System76 though for providing the firmware, this helps
| in auditing it and running tools like lint or PVS studio to
| decrease the chance of bugs like that. They are consistent in
| being open source and I hope more vendors with firmware follow
| their lead.
| meepmorp wrote:
| They didn't write the firmware. QMK is a popular open source
| keyboard firmware.
|
| And fwiw, user updatable keyboards are usually configured
| require a particular key be pressed to flash it, or have a
| dedicated button to hit with a paper clip.
| wiml wrote:
| That's a real risk but closing the design doesn't really
| mitigate it, famously:
| https://semiaccurate.com/2009/07/31/apple-keyboard-firmware-...
| tzarc wrote:
| QMK requires a RESET keycode to be added to your keymap in
| order to reboot into firmware update mode while it's running.
| Alternatively, depending on the configured options at compile-
| time, you can either hold ESC as you plug it in, or hold
| Space+B.
|
| system76's launch requires the holding of ESC on bootup (well,
| top-left matrix position).
|
| Under normal circumstances there's no "unattended update"
| functionality built in. Unsure if system76 has modified this
| behaviour to do so.
|
| (Full disclosure, am a QMK maintainer)
| sigprof wrote:
| Unfortunately, system76 developers added exactly that
| functionality to their firmware: https://github.com/system76/
| qmk_firmware/commit/a1ab70c3a28a...
|
| So it is possible to reboot into the firmware update mode
| just by sending some bytes to the raw HID interface.
| Apparently they did not think about the security aspect of
| this feature.
| PurpleFoxy wrote:
| There is a pretty simple solution for this, require physical
| input to enter firmware upload mode.
|
| Most open source keyboards have a button you press to switch
| from KB mode to flash target mode. Not sure how this laptop
| works but a solution would be to require the user to hold fn
| and some other key for a few seconds before it will accept
| firmware.
|
| This problem btw is actually present in a lot of devices you
| already use but it's proprietary. People have found out ways to
| flash firmware to USB devices, SD cards and hard drives before.
| It just requires reverse engineering to work it out.
| IgorBog61650384 wrote:
| You're right, as long as the hardware switch is really
| hardware and not fake-hardware-implemented-in-software like
| many vendors.
| userbinator wrote:
| I'm not too fond of the idea of having the firmware updatable
| in-place either, but given that the board picture shows it has
| an ISP header, you could probably disable the self-updating
| functionality and then you would need to do firmware
| modifications physically.
| 1MachineElf wrote:
| I rock a custom QMK keymap that only needs 34 keys [0], so I was
| expecting not to be impressed by this board when I saw the
| prototype [1], but highlights on this repo look quite good
| actually. Here's the ones that stand out to me:
|
| - detachable lift bar
|
| - swappable switches
|
| - integrated dock
|
| - per-key RGB
|
| - QMK
|
| - open source design
|
| I'm also a fan of two choices made with the layout. First, the
| split spacebars - it's better to give each thumb it's own job.
| Second, the minimization of modifier keys requiring stabilizers,
| because smooth consistent stabilizers are hard to get right.
|
| [0]
| https://github.com/1MachineElf/qmk_firmware/tree/_sb4dv_refa...
| [1]
| https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2020/03/18/linux...
| kohlerm wrote:
| what is odd is that the keyboard configurator
| https://github.com/pop-os/keyboard-configurator references
| System76 laptops. Does that mean QMK will come to System76
| laptops?
| bluGill wrote:
| System 76 has for years been known to be working on making
| their own laptop designs. They are going slow to create a
| quality product that they don't lost money on. This looks like
| another of the baby steps needed along the way.
| ncrmro wrote:
| Now can we make it spilt
| edrxty wrote:
| This is what you want. Same concept, open firmware, but split.
|
| https://www.gboards.ca/products
| germ wrote:
| If you're going that route, go for GergoPlex with 12g
| switches :)
| konart wrote:
| https://geekhack.org/ "Interest Checks" and "Group Buys and
| Preorders" typically have a few running\comming up splits.
| kisamoto wrote:
| Check out UltimateHackingKeyboard [0] for a developed, split,
| open-source keyboard. Can definitely recommend.
|
| [0] https://uhk.io/
| varispeed wrote:
| This is great but where do you buy keycaps? Do you know why you
| virtually cannot find any flat key caps anywhere? Even the Kailh
| launched their v2 low profile keycap, but good luck finding any
| keycaps. Sure you can attach regular caps with the cherry mount,
| but if you want to build a flat keyboard, it's just not possible
| :( Only way so far I found is to chase people who do DIY molds or
| pay $$$ for a custom run (which you'll end up with a bathtub of
| keycaps and an empty wallet). Why nobody is doing these?
| sigprof wrote:
| A much worse problem with this keyboard is that you almost
| cannot buy even regular MX-compatible keycaps for it, because
| the system76 people chose a really nonstandard physical layout.
| 1.5U Caps Lock, 1.5U Delete in the function key row, 1.5U
| Backspace in the number row, 1U backslash in the QWERTY row,
| 1.5U Enter in the ASDF row -- these keycaps don't exist in most
| sets, except in some "40%" or "ergo" addon kits (and even there
| you may not get the exact legend match for some of them,
| although for Caps Lock that may be a feature). 1.5U Shift is
| also really rare. So if you don't like the stock keycaps (which
| have the uniform XDA profile, and some people just don't like
| it), replacing them would be hard and/or expensive.
| selfhoster11 wrote:
| AliExpress has a wide selection.
| varispeed wrote:
| Do you have links? I have literally spent hours there and
| couldn't find any flat keycap except for older Kailh mount.
| There is nothing to match Kailh v2 / Cherry MX mount. Only
| found a company on Alibaba that could make me some, but I
| can't afford it. I considered 3d printing old Kailh to Cherry
| MX adapter, but that won't be pretty :(
| IshKebab wrote:
| Looks like it can't be converted to a UK layout unfortunately.
| emptysongglass wrote:
| Where is it launched? There's no blog post and no product page.
| sneak wrote:
| What security features are in place to prevent unauthorized
| replacement of firmware by someone other than the keyboard owner?
|
| Seems to me something like this you'd want to be able to blow a
| pubkey into once when you buy it, and have it never accept
| unsigned firmware or new keys.
| Quequau wrote:
| Over twenty years I've spent too much money trying to get a
| keyboard that really worked for me... and I finally gave up and I
| now use the cheapest disposable crap from hole-in-the-wall
| electrical / electronics shop that I can walk to.
|
| Nearly all the DIY keyboards I've seen are ruthlessly
| minimalistic and I really would prefer a larger keyboard with
| more keys, so I don't have to remember lots of meta-key
| combination short-cuts. I don't think I've memorised all the
| keyboard short cuts in a given piece of software in a decade... I
| just don't really use one particular thing enough to make it
| worthwhile.
|
| That keyboard with the active LED keycaps came out in what...
| 2006? I expected a regular keyboard with small set of active
| keycaps for macro keys would have existed by now. Come to think
| of it, I never used an Apple laptop with that active TouchBar
| thing either but that doesn't seem to have achieved enduring
| popularity. but I guess there's no real market for that either.
| dgregd wrote:
| You can have two keyboards. A first ergonomic split keyboard
| for the alpha keys. A second keyboard _only_ for function keys
| (placed between the split keyboard), an ortholinear planck
| keyboard with QMK firmware would be ideal. With QMK you can
| program a single key to send a complex combination like
| Alt+Shift+F10 (the Run... action in IntelliJ), you get the
| idea.
|
| Moreover you can make [1] the same key to do the same action in
| different OSes and programs. No need to remember different
| shortcuts how to switch tabs in a browser and in a text editor.
|
| [1]
| https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/master/users/miles2...
| zamadatix wrote:
| Just search "104 key" (or however big you want) along with
| whatever you're looking for to weed out smaller keyboards.
|
| I've got a "WASD v3" keyboard which is a full keyboard with
| numberpad, like you I can't stand low key count keyboards. You
| can choose the color, switch type, key color/images, and
| program macros/layouts stored in the firmware. No LED displays
| if that's what you want though. The nice thing about this
| option vs a DIY is you order it, it arrives. I.e. you're buying
| a customized keyboard not a customized keyboard building
| experience. There are plenty like this out there, you just have
| to specify that's what you want when searching.
| daveleebbc wrote:
| Sounds like you're just after a 80% keyboard or bigger, no?
| Plenty out there with all benefits of going premium/mechanical.
| Search for "TKL mechanical keyboard" and you'll maybe find what
| you're looking for. It's everything except the number pad.
| zingplex wrote:
| I wonder how the latency is on this.
|
| https://danluu.com/keyboard-latency/
| currymj wrote:
| are there pictures of the finished product from the outside? how
| long until I can buy this?
| aasasd wrote:
| No ergonomics, as usual: problems are carefully passed on like
| heirlooms. The only good thing physically is that the mouse won't
| be pushed away by the numpad.
| red_trumpet wrote:
| Thanks, you just gave me a reason why some peope may not like
| numpads on their keyboards. As a left-handed person I never
| realised that the numpad is where you would want to have your
| mouse :D
| aasasd wrote:
| I'm a rightie, but I periodically move the mouse to the other
| side, partly to avoid too much RSI and partly exactly because
| the numpad was in the way--especially with MS' 'Natural 4000'
| keyboard that takes half the desk. With the 'Sculpt' keyboard
| I finally learned how much space there is.
|
| Combined with the fact that the numpad for me is pretty much
| completely useless outside of entering one-time codes for
| online purchases and Steam login--I'm quite grateful that
| it's a separate unit on Sculpt.
|
| That's all despite the fact that I'm a programmer and
| supposed to love the digits: purportedly that's how they
| ended up in 'lowercase' on the second-top row of the
| keyboard, i.e. pressed without the shift key (and Apple
| managed to stick dot and comma in the upper register on that
| row, in my language's layout). I actually tried to change the
| mapping so that the symbols are entered without shift, but
| somehow that breaks a lot of muscle memory of which I didn't
| even know.
|
| I'm vaguely curious about one setup that seemingly would be
| especially ergonomic: an Advantage keyboard with a trackpad
| in the middle. There's almost exactly enough space for a
| trackpad there, and I've seen kludgey setups that slap a
| trackpad on an Advantage. A less-ideal split keyboard like
| Freestyle would probably work too. Meanwhile, semi-portable
| keyboards like Microsoft's 'All-In-One' still go the tired
| staggered flat-board path and attach a trackpad at the end,
| despite the opportunity.
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(page generated 2021-02-11 23:03 UTC)