[HN Gopher] Samsung Foundry: New $17B Fab in the USA by Late 2023
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Samsung Foundry: New $17B Fab in the USA by Late 2023
Author : manojkr
Score : 181 points
Date : 2021-02-10 20:45 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.anandtech.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.anandtech.com)
| gautamcgoel wrote:
| Really happy to see this. It's really frightening how dependent
| we are on other countries to manufacture our chips. I hope that
| more American chip companies choose to build fabs here as well,
| though I recognize how expensive that would be...
|
| Also... is every single tech company investing heavily in Austin?
| It sure feels like it!
| sithadmin wrote:
| Frankly, I'm surprised that the Austin region's notable decline
| in quality of life hasn't already begun to act as a feedback
| mechanism limiting investment and population growth.
|
| Austin was plagued by decades of nimbyism and poor urban
| planning that prevented sufficient infrastructure development
| _before_ it was a tech hotspot. ~10 years ago, things like
| traffic and public transport had already become borderline
| unbearable relative to comparable cities. It has only become
| much, much worse in recent years. I imagine that it might still
| seem livable to tech folks arriving from west /east coast
| megacities, but to us locals...not so much.
|
| Nearby San Antonio has done a much, much better job in terms of
| infrastructure development, but of course nobody wants to set
| up shop there because it doesn't have the (fading, imo)
| cultural cachet that Austin has.
| [deleted]
| cjtoth wrote:
| > nobody wants to set up shop there because it doesn't have
| the (fading, imo) cultural cachet that Austin has
|
| .. and has a public ivy college, the Texas legislature, and
| decades of semiconductors in the area. There's still NIMBY &
| traffic in the city, but to sum Austin up as simply a
| cultural hub feels dishonest
| tick_tock_tick wrote:
| Austin is the "new" SF and it's happening on a shorter
| timescale which is probably going to create an even more
| dysfunctional local political system.
|
| I know so many friends and colleagues that have moved to
| Austin from SF over the years to escape the issues they have
| with SF (mostly around trying to raise a family, poor
| schools, high coast of homes with any real space, etc) but it
| seems like Austin might just slingshot past SF in terms of
| issues.
| DebtDeflation wrote:
| There's always Denver and RTP.
| breischl wrote:
| Shhhhh, no there's not. These are not the metro areas
| you're looking for. Nothing to see here. Move along.
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| Decline is relative. Despite being a crappy deal Austin is
| still a better deal than the options where a lot of the new
| people are coming from.
| medium_burrito wrote:
| Yeah, comparing with San Francisco/CA (massive income tax,
| possible wealth tax, absurd real estate, dysfunctional
| schools, etc) and Seattle (merely very expensive real
| estate, insane city council, famously unfriendly people,
| depressing weather, and possibly way more taxes and soon as
| our legislature can figure out how to get around them being
| unconstitutional)...
|
| Austin is definitely still a good deal. Sure, the weather
| isn't as good as California (but better than southern
| Nevada), and the scenery isn't as pretty or geographically
| interesting as the Pacific Northwest (but better than
| Oklahoma), but there are jobs, a good university and Texas
| doesn't appear to have lobotomy patients as local
| government.
| dmix wrote:
| Of course it's in Texas, not in SV. And TSMC going to Arizona.
| alexfromapex wrote:
| This will be good for the US chip supply chain, hopefully more
| chip makers follow suit
| u678u wrote:
| Why Austin? I thought you needed a lot of water for fabs.
| drak0n1c wrote:
| Texas business-friendly laws with access to technical Austin
| workforce and university.
| cameldrv wrote:
| Austin has a long established semiconductor workforce, and
| there are already multiple fabs there, as well as a lot of
| semiconductor design. Right now, Freescale/NXP has two fabs,
| Spansion has a flash fab, and Samsung already has a fab in
| Austin.
| eutropia wrote:
| I'm no expert, but my understanding is that Fabs like stable
| weather patterns and climates so they can more easily regulate
| the cleanrooms.
|
| Knowing nothing about Austin's climate, of course, I'm assuming
| that it's reliably hot and dry?
| chiyc wrote:
| I think there's some consideration of how prone an area is to
| natural disaster, which makes Intel's picks of places like
| Arizona and New Mexico ideal. But I think other benefits like
| a strong labor market or a business friendly jurisdiction
| will probably have an overall bigger impact on where a
| business chooses to build.
| nwatson wrote:
| Arizona has a long tradition in and worker base for
| semiconductor manufacturing.
| Turing_Machine wrote:
| Texas is quite large... you're probably thinking of West
| Texas (as shown in innumerable western movies). That is
| indeed very dry.
|
| East Texas, particularly south-eastern Texas (near the Gulf)
| is very humid and can experience torrential rainfall. It's
| more like Louisiana than El Paso, climate-wise.
|
| Austin is sort of in the transitional zone between the two.
|
| By comparison with California, Austin gets an average of
| 34.32 inches (872 mm) of rain per year. San Jose gets 15.82
| inches (402 mm). San Francisco proper gets 23.65 inches (601
| mm).
|
| Austin is considerably more water-rich than the Bay Area.
| [deleted]
| pradn wrote:
| There's a joke about how quickly Austin's weather can change.
| It's not unheard of to see 30 degree swings over the course
| of a few hours. Austin has no protection from polar winds
| coming down from the north, nor is it near water, which has a
| moderating effect on climate. So it does have erratic
| weather. It's possible to see an inch of snow every other
| year, and yet, in the summers, it's likely to see 100+ degree
| (F) weather for two months straight.
|
| It's more likely how Austin is still attractive to high-tech
| personnel - a good public university nearby, a reputation for
| being a lively city, somewhat reasonable real estate prices
| (relative to the Bay, but still 2X what they were 10 years
| ago), and excellent schools if you're in the right area, a
| decent number of tech options to jump to if you want to
| switch, a spritely startup scene, enough outdoorsy things to
| do, etc etc.
| reaperducer wrote:
| _Knowing nothing about Austin 's climate, of course, I'm
| assuming that it's reliably hot and dry?_
|
| Austin isn't in the desert. It gets ice storms, tornados,
| hurricanes, and the epic Texas thunderstorms that have
| various names like Blue Norther, Possum Stomper, and Toad
| Strangler.
|
| I spent five years in Texas, near Austin, and my college
| meteorology classes came back to me.
| banana_giraffe wrote:
| One of the moments I'll always remember growing up in Texas
| was seeing the newscaster ask the very well dressed and
| always presentable local weatherman "what's the weather
| look like tomorrow?" and when the camera turned to him we
| saw a disheveled weatherman, tie not done, hair messed up
| turn to the camera and deadpan "I have no idea"
|
| Many areas have the joke "if you don't like the weather,
| wait 5 minutes". That was less a joke and more a warning in
| large areas of Texas.
| [deleted]
| jaywalk wrote:
| They already have a fab in Austin.
| bob1029 wrote:
| The reason is that Samsung already has a huge logistical
| presence in the city supporting the A2/S2 lines. Adding
| deliveries & pickups for across the street is much easier than
| building out a new facility in Arizona and replicating all of
| that over there.
|
| Additionally, if there is some technical fire in the new PSS
| fab, it would be expected that employees from the existing fabs
| could walk across the way and assist. They would probably do
| something where the existing engineering & manufacturing teams
| are divided up and shared across the facilities to get
| everything bootstrapped. Their systems are very strictly
| standardized, so staff from one factory can very easily support
| any other in the fleet.
| baybal2 wrote:
| > New $17B Fab in the USA by Late 2023
|
| Impossible.
|
| Leads times on fab hardware are on all time high.
|
| Not to say that construction, and setup itself would be extremely
| challenging in such timeframe.
|
| And not saying that US has no supply chain locally for modern
| fabs. Intel famously flies a lot of its consumables from abroad.
|
| Samsung will have similarly to transport its consumables by air
| if they go with this plan.
| TrainedMonkey wrote:
| > There is an intrigue about the new fab though: Samsung hasn't
| stated which process node it will be designed for.
|
| Let's restate the question. Which node can they get up by 2023
| and how much of security critical U.S. consumption can that
| cover?
| Beached wrote:
| doesn't samsung have the capability to create its own fab
| hardware? if they are the supplier to themselves, wouldn't it
| be reasonable that they can prioritize delivering to themsleves
| kuschku wrote:
| ASML is the only supplier for EUV machines. Samsung can't
| just create those easily themselves (or they would).
| avs733 wrote:
| not that I am aware of (read: no unless someone proves me
| dumb)
|
| Major supppliers include:
|
| Nikon
|
| ASML
|
| KLA-Tencor
|
| Applied Materials (AMAT)
|
| Lam Research
|
| the timeline they are suggesting isn't literally impossible
| as a matter of phyics but is, to me, laughably unrealistic
| and likely done to try and extract tax incentives.
|
| Unless they have already broken ground in Texas...and are
| just shopping for a better deal
| baybal2 wrote:
| > Major supppliers include:
|
| Add like 100 more companies to the list.
|
| A fab is not only a lithographic line, but a ton of other
| very unique, industry specific equipment.
|
| Air handling for fabs stuff is up to 24 months lead time,
| and has no use in any other industry.
|
| Ultra clean water plants -- 9 to 18 months. Just two
| vendors on the planet.
|
| Gas plants -- take few years to construct by themselves
|
| Chem plants -- again years long lead time equipment from
| only one vendor in the world
|
| Post-backend stuff...
|
| The list will go on for a few screens.
| dmeeker wrote:
| Samsung has a long-term capital and capacity planning process.
| Isn't it possible (if not likely) that they would pre-order
| equipment as part of capacity planning without having already
| decided where it's going to be deployed?
| avs733 wrote:
| it's possible but it's going to take at least a year to build
| the building, another year or so to install, and another year
| to qual (these are ballparks).
|
| Not to mention they have to staff the thing, train the staff,
| etc.
| babelfish wrote:
| All of those things can be parallelized. It's one thing to
| say "opening by the end of 2023 is unlikely", but to say
| it's impossible is unnecessarily dismissive.
| singhrac wrote:
| While I'm also optimistic on Samsung's ability to execute
| some version of this plan, those things can't be
| parallelized. You can't set up a complex water delivery
| mechanism until after the building is completed and the
| cleanroom has been built to spec and tested, and you
| can't calibrate the gigantic ASML machines until after
| that.
| avs733 wrote:
| comparative data point:
|
| Intel's last fab build took 9 years to go from green field to
| producing wafers (note...faster is possible)
|
| https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intels-long-awaited-fab-42...
|
| Some more realistic notes because I sound a little hyperbolic:
|
| 2011 - break ground
|
| 2013 - finish basic construction
|
| 2014 - stop progress
|
| 2017 - start install of tooling
|
| 2020 - production
| Nokinside wrote:
| New fab in 4 years is manageable. It may have been in plans for
| some time, they just chose a new location now.
|
| They build it in Arizona where Intel has several fabs and where
| TSMC is building their medium-sized 25K/month 5nm Megafab.
| baybal2 wrote:
| 25k starts a month is not a megafab
| DC1350 wrote:
| If you're wondering like me why they would bother building in an
| expensive country with fewer qualified workers:
|
| "To build a leading-edge manufacturing facility, Samsung needs
| rather huge incentives from authorities. In particular, Samsung
| is requesting combined tax abatements of $805.5 million over 20
| years"
| adriancr wrote:
| 17B investment for 805M tax rebates... over 20 years... 5% of
| invested ammount... seems just like a way to get government
| involved and avoid them blocking investment.
| Flockster wrote:
| So 40 million per year? That does not sound like much..
| tyingq wrote:
| _" which essentially means that Samsung demands a 100% tax
| abatement from the county and 50% from the city."_
|
| So the figure couldn't really be much larger.
| kansface wrote:
| I know SV wasn't in the running, but I can't imagine the Bay Area
| or California even addressing the permits by 2023... On another
| note, does anyone know if the supply
| chain/parts/materials/machinery can be sourced from outside of
| Chinese suppliers?
| adrianmonk wrote:
| Probably one advantage of the proposed Austin site is that it's
| only a 10-minute drive from the Austin location of Applied
| Materials (https://www.appliedmaterials.com/), a really large
| manufacturer of equipment for fabs.
| DavidPeiffer wrote:
| I wonder if a large fab is a "if you build it, they will
| come" type situation? When I worked at Micron in Boise, the
| surrounding area had many fab suppliers.
| totalZero wrote:
| > does anyone know if the supply
| chain/parts/materials/machinery can be sourced from outside of
| Chinese suppliers?
|
| I don't believe there's a single part of the semiconductor
| supply chain that is exclusively available from China.
| reaperducer wrote:
| _I don 't believe there's a single part of the semiconductor
| supply chain that is exclusively available from China._
|
| I agree with you. But the parent comment reminds me of when
| Apple started making computers in Austin and HN was full of
| people saying, "No, you can't build computers in America
| because America doesn't have any screws, and can't possibly
| figure out how to make its own!"
|
| Time and money solve all problems. Even supply chains.
| adventured wrote:
| The nice thing about China at its present stage of
| development is that everything made in China will
| perpetually get more expensive to make there and that will
| provide an ongoing advantage gain to every other location
| around the world that has until recently been at a steep
| cost disadvantage to China. Five to seven years ago it was
| already nearing cost-even to begin making things in the US
| again vs keeping that manufacturing in China, that will
| continue to tilt in the favor of the US by the year.
| quasirandom wrote:
| I've been meaning to do a deep dive on semiconductor supply
| chains for a while now. I'd start by aggregating annual reports
| for the companies named in [1], identify their major categories
| of capex, gather information about their suppliers, and
| recurse.
|
| [1]
| https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/Deloitte/cn/Documents/...
| mdocherty wrote:
| I am doing the same. I started at the SMH etf and have been
| working downwards. It's interesting stuff!
| [deleted]
| nexthash wrote:
| This is awesome! The US needs domestic chip manufacturing, in
| order to be able to effectively compete, take business from, and
| vanquish China on all fronts. This includes AI, automobiles, the
| cloud, etc. The coming technology arms race is looking to be like
| a second Cold War, so we need to remember the lessons of the
| first (like containment) and apply them again.
| gruez wrote:
| >This is awesome! The US needs domestic chip manufacturing, in
| order to be able to effectively compete, take business from,
| and vanquish China on all fronts.
|
| Have you forgotten all the intel/GF fabs?
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_manufacturing_si...
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GlobalFoundries#Fabrication_fa...
| nexthash wrote:
| Yep, and it's wonderful that we have important fabs that
| haven't moved production out of the US. However, other parts
| of the chip supply chain _have_ been moved out of the US,
| such as iPhone chip manufacturing and stuff related to data
| centers & servers. While this can help lower prices, it also
| increases the risk of the US losing control of IP and having
| its technology compromised.
|
| Remember when in 2018 SuperMicro servers sold to Apple were
| compromised by a small chip inserted by a Chinese sub-
| manufacturer? [1] Or how iPhone designs sometimes get leaked
| by employees of Foxconn in Taiwan? [2] We've got fabs in the
| US, but I believe domestic chip manufacture should become
| central policy to prevent incidents like this.
|
| [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-10-04/the-
| big-h...
|
| [2] https://bgr.com/2019/08/14/iphone-11-release-date-soon-
| foxco...
| skazazes wrote:
| Did anything ever come of that bloomberg article?
| Supermicro denied all allegations, but also began moving
| production out of China from what I can find online.
| Outside of a tech blog or two I haven't heard anything of
| it again
| [deleted]
| dchest wrote:
| [1] is generally considered an incorrect story. It was
| denied by every party involved, presented no evidence, and
| not confirmed by anybody else.
|
| It is possible in theory, but this particular story is
| considered a BS.
| realmod wrote:
| And two years later there has been zero development on
| this bombshell story which makes the story look even
| worse.
| natch wrote:
| from TFA:
|
| >... "leading edge" ...
|
| Does Intel have some leading edge fabs? I read they have some
| coming in the future, but I think the point is it's good to
| have more!
| LatteLazy wrote:
| Devil's advocste: why can't the US do that via Taiwan as it
| does currently?
|
| They're an ally, they're totally reliant on the US and afraid
| of the PRC.
|
| Won't we also need "rare" earth metal supplies to of it is a
| vital industry we can't cope with being overseas? And then
| there is the fact the fab machines all come from Belgium.
| pkaye wrote:
| > Devil's advocste: why can't the US do that via Taiwan as it
| does currently?
|
| I think TSMC was working on a similar deal.
|
| > Won't we also need "rare" earth metal supplies to of it is
| a vital industry we can't cope with being overseas?
|
| Rare earth materials are available in the US but due to cost
| competitiveness, all the mining happens overseas. Also the
| mining process has environmental impacts some countries
| choose to ignore.
|
| > And then there is the fact the fab machines all come from
| Belgium.
|
| Which company in Belgium make the fab machines. The biggest
| manufacturer of semiconductor fabrication equipment are
| Applied Materials and Lam Research, both in the bay area.
| ASML from Netherlands make the critical Photolithography
| equipment however. Beyond this, there are hundred of mid and
| smaller companies involved all over the world.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor_equipment_sales_.
| ..
| wcarss wrote:
| No horse in the race on either side here but just to answer
| the devil's advocate: it's pretty easy to imagine a future
| where China could establish a trade blockade of Taiwan,
| putting the US in the position of "potentially start a war,
| or go without Taiwanese goods" -- that's like the diplomatic
| equivalent of a Fork[1]. If you depend on it, and you can do
| it at home, you should.
|
| And "but what about ______, then?" (e.g. rare earths, fab
| machines) does not mean that all other "______" (e.g. chips)
| should follow suit. You control what you can.
|
| 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork_(chess)
| dragontamer wrote:
| Taiwan is a great ally. But if a war breaks out between US
| and China, Taiwan will likely be the first casualty.
|
| Nothing against Taiwan or anything. Its just the bloody
| obvious "first strike" move. China will almost certainly
| attack Taiwan as part of an offensive-strategy vs the USA.
|
| Having fabs on this side of the Pacific Ocean is important
| for strategic defense reasons. Of course, the US should move
| to defend Taiwan in that situation, but if worst-comes-to-
| worst, we'll need a way to produce chips under such a
| scenario.
|
| -------
|
| This story is about Samsung however, which is South Korean.
| North Korea now has nuclear weapons, as well as tons of
| artillery pointing at South Korea.
|
| For the Samsung-side of things: same thing. South Korea are
| great allies, but if the North Korean war ever gets started
| again, Samsung's production inside the US-proper would be a
| strategic advantage.
| baybal2 wrote:
| > Taiwan is a great ally.
|
| Should I remind of the fact that Taiwan was very glad to
| sell any amount of semiconductors to mainland China.
|
| If anybody had an option to strangle them economically, it
| would've been Taiwanese themselves.
|
| China is world's biggest semiconductor market. If the tap
| will close on their semiconductor imports, so would've
| their economy at large.
|
| Now, it's them, and not US who has to regret their prior
| indecisiveness the most.
|
| Now of course attitudes have changed in Taipei, but only
| now.
|
| I bet, in the next 5-10 years, Japan, and Korea will have
| their own time regretting being soft with Beijing just like
| that.
| dragontamer wrote:
| > Should I remind of the fact that Taiwan was very glad
| to sell any amount of semiconductors to mainland China.
|
| And US companies moved production to China. Apple, TSLA,
| etc. etc. Yeah, we're in peacetime. These things happen.
| We're not planning to go to war with China, but we need
| to be realistic about potential threats in the future.
|
| There's something to be said about the ability for trade
| to reduce tensions. I don't think trade with China is
| necessarily bad.
| hanklazard wrote:
| True. It's also important to remember that Taiwan is
| located in a seismically active region ...
| philipkglass wrote:
| There are also rare earth separation plants being built in
| Texas.
|
| "DOD Awards $30.4 Million for Rare Earth Minerals Facility in
| Texas"
|
| _The Department of Defense and Lynas Rare Earths Ltd. will
| each contribute $30 million to establish a rare earths
| processing facility in Texas._
|
| https://thetexan.news/dod-awards-30-4-million-for-rare-
| earth...
|
| But that doesn't actually have much to do with advanced
| microprocessor fabs. The "tech" uses for rare earth elements
| are primarily in making magnets, lasers, and phosphors.
| genericone wrote:
| Which fab machines are you referencing? Atmospheric modules?
| Vacuum modules? Or maybe not talking about the process tools
| at all, and more along the lines of inter-fab equipment?
| LatteLazy wrote:
| I won't pretend I know, fabrication seems very technical
| and I get the vague idea but I'm also an idiot.
|
| I was referring to ASML Holdings.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASML_Holding
| nexthash wrote:
| A couple of strategic reasons: Taiwan's proximity to the PRC
| would knock out fab production should a war occur between the
| two. Also, the same proximity could lead to unwanted IP
| transfer, which could compromise US national security if
| China gets its hands on any new chip tech the US develops.
|
| Taiwan is a great ally to the US and having it manufacture
| chips is good for both economies, but if the US wants to
| lower risk and keep control of its technological edge it is
| in its interests to keep manufacturing domestic.
| malux85 wrote:
| Yes! Agree! I was happy to read this, too much reliance on TSMC
| TACIXAT wrote:
| TSMC is also building a fab in the US. [1]
|
| 1. https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/15/tech/tsmc-arizona-chip-
| factor...
| waynecochran wrote:
| They already have fabs in the US. e.g.
| https://www.wafertech.com
| somethoughts wrote:
| Interesting if it is related to the possibility of manufacturing
| smart phones in Mexico [1].
|
| In that sense if you were to take the output of an Austin based
| fab to supply a smart phone manufacturing supply chain in Mexico
| versus China, that would be a significant reduction in the length
| of a smart phone supply chain.
|
| [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mexico-china-factories-
| ex...
| tgtweak wrote:
| Finally - this is great news - I hope they put a lot of design
| staff here too, not just fab workers.
| throwaway120575 wrote:
| They layed off a lot of their Austin-based Exynos CPU design
| staff two years ago, save for those working on the AMD/Samsung
| GPU partnership work - still, will be interesting to see how/if
| Exynos comes back, know they are aggressively hiring for GPU
| work.
| dirtyid wrote:
| Assuming proposed US semi fund will be chipping in for Samsung
| asking 1B in tax subsidies like TSMC.
| mchusma wrote:
| Its very important for the US strategically to build out its
| foundry capabilities, so this plus the TSMC plant are big steps
| forward there.
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