[HN Gopher] Apple Watch Identifies SARS-CoV2 Infection and Predi...
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Apple Watch Identifies SARS-CoV2 Infection and Predicts Diagnosis
Author : giuliomagnifico
Score : 170 points
Date : 2021-02-10 14:11 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (preprints.jmir.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (preprints.jmir.org)
| vrc wrote:
| This is basically how the WHOOP band works. Anyone with an Apple
| Watch curious to see can find your tracked HRV in the Health App
| on your iPhone.
|
| However, looking at heart-rate (HR) itself will be misleading.
| Big swings in HR or high HR in general usually misinterpreted as
| having high HRV, when it's often the exact opposite. HRV is a
| measure of the variability of 1/(inter-beat time). So it's
| measuring the time-average of really small variations from a set
| point.
|
| And counterintuitively, HRV is usually highest when the
| sympathetic (flight or fight) nervous tone and HR is lower. In
| those situations, the parasympathetic control dominates, and
| small wiggles caused by "noise on the wire" conducted directly to
| the heart's pacemaker via the vagus nerve increases HRV. Often
| times this is when HR is lower, and because higher HR or spikes
| in HR are often caused by increased sympathetic tone, this leads
| to a blunting of this "parasympathetic noise".
|
| Source:
| https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/physiol.000...
| grok22 wrote:
| Is there something else like the WHOOP band, but sold as a
| standalone device (the WHOOP band is given free with a fitness
| subscription service!)?
| pmw wrote:
| I've never had the WHOOP, but I use Apple Watch combined with
| iPhone apps to track heart metrics. I recently discovered
| AutoSleep and HeartWatch, which both track HRV along with
| other metrics.
| vrc wrote:
| I track mine on my Apple Watch which records it in the Health
| App. It's basic graph and I can download it if I want, but
| I've found tracking day-over-day/week-over-week is a good
| enough signal. For example, I did dry January this year and
| practiced meditation every day since and I've seen a step-
| jump up corresponding to that.
|
| Still have to keep another record of external factors to
| correlate with it, though. I've heard people finding success
| with a 3p monitor and the Elite HRV app as well [0].
|
| [0] https://elitehrv.com/
| _nickwhite wrote:
| _" Longitudinally collected HRV metrics from a commonly worn
| commercial wearable device (Apple Watch) can identify the
| diagnosis of COVID-19 and COVID-19 related symptoms."_
|
| Having first-hand experience, I can confirm that my heart rate
| was WAY up, and my pulse-ox was WAY down when the virus was at
| its worst. I used the pulse ox value to make sure I was getting
| in good breaths (and yes, I know there is a hefty margin of error
| on these consumer devices.) I use a Garmin, but the sensors are
| pretty much the same on Apple Watch.
|
| It would be pretty easy for the device to tell I was _sick_ but
| probably impossible to tell I had COVID-19 instead of the Flu or
| a bad infection or maybe pneumonia.
| mandis wrote:
| umm speaking from personal experience (comparing garmin reading
| with hospital oximeter), garmin is waaaay inaccurate sometimes!
| Maybe it is because I always shower with it, or maybe it just
| loses accuracy over time. Didnt give it a second thought and
| just disabled the sensor.
| joseph_grobbles wrote:
| HRV is neither pulse rate or blood oxygen. It is variations
| between heart rates, and the reason this is fascinating is
| because HRV is a significant _leading_ indicator, long before
| the other indicators which are lagging.
|
| HRV is increasingly becoming a very important metric. When your
| body is under stress (mental or physical) the heart because
| tightly sequenced. Under normal, healthy conditions it has
| slight lags and leads based upon breathing and other
| conditions.
|
| This post will be dead given that dang is a pathetic bitch and
| a *horrid* moderator, but for those enlightened enough to use
| showdead.
| miskin wrote:
| In my case HRV went down almost 30% before I started to have
| symptoms with 50% of average on the worst day. Resting heart
| rate went up 35% on the worst day and respiratory rate went up
| 18%. But only HRV was obviously changed before I started to
| feel symptoms and became infectious.
| germinalphrase wrote:
| I wish I could buy a watch that continuously monitored my
| hydration levels. So many health concerns are directly impacted
| by hydration.
|
| Edit: My comment meant to recognize that while this tech doesn't
| yet exist, it would be helpful as people end up in the hospital
| all the time for medical problems that are exacerbated by
| dehydration. Simply saying "drink water when you're thirsty" is
| beside the point.
| uncledave wrote:
| Use the Apple Watch. It reminds you to stand up every hour. Go
| pee then. If it's not clear then drink a glass of water. Works
| for me.
| germinalphrase wrote:
| I don't really have a desk job, so a timed reminder wouldn't
| be as useful to me as actual data.
| uncledave wrote:
| You've got sensors in your head and data when it comes out
| of you. I do a hell of a lot of hiking and that's all you
| need to monitor hydration.
| Jtsummers wrote:
| A lot of people have conditioned themselves to ignore the
| signs of thirst or misinterpret them as hunger. Our,
| largely, idle/still lives probably doesn't help here, as
| staying at a survivable level (even if not a truly
| healthy level) of hydration isn't hard if you're not
| working up a sweat or in environmental conditions that
| cause you to become dehydrated faster.
| nradov wrote:
| If you're thirsty then drink some water. We have no reliable
| clinical evidence that drinking extra water when you're not
| thirsty causes improved health.
|
| So far no one has succeeded in building a reliable, wearable,
| non-invasive hydration sensor.
|
| https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2019/11/lvls-hydration-sensor-ri...
| 2wrist wrote:
| There have been a few cyclists who use whoop and it picked up on
| HRV and they could see that something was not right.
|
| Hopefully HRV gets added to the AWatch soon, if it isn't already.
| (C'mon Apple, deliver my device!)
|
| It is pretty cool that we can take these measurements and
| hopfully make data driven decisions. Hopefully in time we can use
| these measures to be prescritive and be guided to make better
| decisions.
| jjevanoorschot wrote:
| Heart Rate Variability is already measured throughout the day
| if you wear an Apple Watch. You can find the data in the Health
| app.
| ben1040 wrote:
| Yep. It takes a sample every few hours, but you can also get
| a HRV measurement on demand by running a session in the
| Breathe app on the watch.
|
| It doesn't tell you anything about HRV in the Breathe app or
| that it took a new sample for you, but you'll find a new
| entry in the Health app if you go look right afterward.
| 2wrist wrote:
| thanks for that! I wasn't sure.
| victor106 wrote:
| Slightly OT:-
|
| I really hope Apple Watch SPO2 is more accurate.
|
| The current version is not accurate enough to use as a
| replacement for a pulse oximeter
|
| https://www.medpagetoday.com/blogs/skeptical-cardiologist/88...
| whoisburbansky wrote:
| Agreed, but the article is about using HRV, not spO2
| victor106 wrote:
| Agreed, This is tangential to that article.
| whoisburbansky wrote:
| Follow up that for most diagnostic purposes, you don't
| really care about the specific spO2 precentage beyond "is
| it below 90" or not, for which the Apple Watch is perfectly
| satisfactory: https://tidbits.com/2020/10/22/the-
| paramedics-guide-to-blood...
| screamingninja wrote:
| Title is misleading IMO. The study has nothing specific to do
| with Apple Watch. They mentioned that they used "a commonly worn
| commercial wearable device (Apple Watch)" for testing. Any device
| with continuous heart rate monitoring will do.
| Abishek_Muthian wrote:
| Considering the proliferation of fake pulse-oximeters due the
| pandemic, it might be easy to go for Apple Watch if one can
| afford it and have access to it.
|
| I got a FDI approved pulse-oximeter accidentally from
| Amazon(US)[1] after realizing almost every pulse-oximeters sold
| online where I live were making false claims[1].
|
| [1] https://abishekmuthian.com/testing-fda-approved-pulse-
| oximet...
| yoz-y wrote:
| Note though that the study does not use (or even mention) the
| oximeter. They use heart rate variability.
|
| Edit: They probably also used the older model as the study
| was submitted in November and the Apple Watch with oximeter
| came out in September, and was seriously supply constrained.
| zepto wrote:
| They know the Apple Watch works.
|
| They haven't tested _any_ other devices.
|
| This _is_ about the Apple Watch.
|
| Your comment is supposition. Likely correct, but not
| guaranteed.
| screamingninja wrote:
| > Your comment is supposition. Likely correct, but not
| guaranteed.
|
| No, the paper was very clear that Apple Watch was used to
| measure Heart Rate Variability (HRV). There is absolutely no
| mention of any unique advantages that Apple Watch provided in
| the given scenario. The study is about using the HRV data
| from a wearable device to identify indicators of COVID-19; it
| is not an endorsement or an advertisement for Apple.
| zepto wrote:
| It doesn't matter.
|
| Have you compared the HRV data from different devices? Have
| you compared the Apple HRV data and the data from other
| devices to a reference instrument, or confirmed that it
| meets some standard?
|
| The Apple Watch _is_ the reference instrument for this
| paper. It would be a scientific _error_ to conceal that
| fact.
|
| This isn't about product endorsements, it's about saying
| what laboratory equipment was used so that other scientists
| don't have hidden confounds when they attempt to replicate.
| screamingninja wrote:
| > The Apple Watch is the reference instrument for this
| paper.
|
| Exactly. It is an instrument used to gather metrics. The
| study is about analyzing the metrics and not so much
| about the tools used to gather those metrics. Read the
| paper's title.
| zepto wrote:
| The Apple Watch is mentioned 27 times in the paper.
|
| No other HRV instrument is mentioned.
|
| Also, I recommend looking into how the scientific method
| works.
|
| Generally if you don't have a standardized instrument,
| you must say what instrument you used.
|
| If they said "HRV sensors can _in general_ detect covid",
| they would be making a claim _not supported by their
| results_.
|
| You seem desperate to not have Apple's name associated
| with this paper, but it would be unscientific not to name
| it.
|
| Good scientists are careful not to make generalizations
| they can't support with evidence or references.
| screamingninja wrote:
| > It would be a scientific error to conceal that fact.
|
| Who said anything about concealing any facts?
| zepto wrote:
| > Title is misleading IMO. The study has nothing specific
| to do with Apple Watch. They mentioned that they used "a
| commonly worn commercial wearable device (Apple Watch)"
| for testing.
|
| The title is factual and not misleading. It seems like
| you want it changed to remove a fact.
|
| > Any device with continuous heart rate monitoring will
| do.
|
| This is something you assert, is definitely not a
| conclusion of the study, and _is misleading_.
| aorth wrote:
| Offtopic: what is up with this website? I just clicked the link
| and noticed that Firefox downloaded the paper's PDF 55 times
| automatically before I closed the window!
| kristjansson wrote:
| It gets points for being a novel form of broken!
| sebmellen wrote:
| This reminds me of a great interview with two ER doctors on
| Amanpour (PBS) two weeks ago. Pulse oximeters can be used to help
| detect which patients need hospitalization _before they
| themselves notice_ , with astounding results.
|
| I really recommend the episode:
| https://www.pbs.org/wnet/amanpour-and-company/video/how-earl...
|
| Here's another article on a hospital implementing the early
| monitoring program
| https://www.nny360.com/news/publicservicenews/samaritan-util....
|
| > _With the oximeter, Samaritan is asking patients to keep track
| of its measurements twice a day and to write the readings down.
| Then Home Health follows up with telehealth visits, either over
| the phone or via Zoom on days two and four, as well as days seven
| and 10._
| vvram wrote:
| This has been standard practice in India for a while now
| https://mumbai.apollohospitals.com/covid-19-update/stay-i-at...
| Package includes oximeter, test sample collection, PPE supplies
| and optional food drop off. Includes a zoom cal with
| nurse/doctor at regular touchpoint intervals to facilitate
| hospitalisation
| pkaye wrote:
| I would say thought that if your hands are cold, warm them up
| before you take a pulse oximeter reading.
| danesparza wrote:
| This is happening now in hospitals with Covid-19. I know,
| because I'm married to a nurse. Nurses call them "happy
| hypoxics" because they have no idea their SPO2 levels are
| dangerously low -- but a pulse oximeter clearly indicates they
| need additional oxygen.
| treeman79 wrote:
| I had a pulmonary embolism's was white as a ghost struggling
| to breathe and that dang meter said everything was fine. Even
| the bloodwork at the hospital said everything was fine. Lost
| some lung over that and took a year to recover.
| graeme wrote:
| Different use case: here you can have someone with covid
| with no perceptible symptoms but low blood o2 tells doctors
| it is an emergency.
|
| Whereas presumably you had some symptoms that were ignored?
| lostlogin wrote:
| A negative D-dimer in someone with a PE sounds rare - the
| test has a negative predictive value of 95.7%.
|
| I'm guessing that OP managed to complain enough or be
| sick enough (but with normal O2 sats?) to get a CT.
|
| https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S07
| 364...
| treeman79 wrote:
| D timer was normal. I was told it was muscle strain. They
| ran an X-ray to be safe. Just after they rushed me to get
| a CT. I was admitted.
|
| Fun times.
|
| Turns out I have factor 5 Leiden, I clot like crazy
| nradov wrote:
| You might have been going into shock. A pulmonary embolism
| can block blood flow to part of a lung and kill that tissue
| but it won't necessarily cause SpO2 to drop much. Patients
| who are otherwise healthy have extra lung capacity to
| spare.
| treeman79 wrote:
| Sounds reasonable. It was only one lung that had a clot.
| Heart was racing for months Afterwards
|
| Walk 30 feet. 170bpm for ten minutes.
| atc wrote:
| My brother had fairly severe COVID-19 symptoms -- fatigue,
| feaver, very bad chest -- and he was sent home from hospital
| due to there not being any beds (and him not being serious
| enough a case I suspect) with the instruction to monitor his
| blood oxygen through an Oximeter as you suggestion: e.g. "95
| for > 30 mins and you should come back."
| linuxftw wrote:
| More than 2 doctors have reported positive effects with certain
| drugs to treat the infection, but those people are lambasted.
| What makes this anecdotal evidence any different? Shouldn't we
| report this as misinformation since it didn't come from an
| approved source such as the CDC or WHO?
| sebmellen wrote:
| I think it's definitely more than anecdotal! Take a look at
| the video -- they're running large trials at a number of
| hospitals already.
|
| And I think the two doctors share your same gripe, expressing
| frustration at the CDC not taking action to recommend these
| steps earlier.
| nradov wrote:
| The current clinical recommendation for ambulatory COVID-19
| patients at home is to go to the hospital if the pulse oximeter
| reading drops below 94%. Accurate pulse oximeters are cheap now
| so it's a good item to keep in your home first aid kit.
|
| https://covid19criticalcare.com/i-mask-prophylaxis-treatment...
| [deleted]
| thebean11 wrote:
| Mine frequently drops to the low 90s (or even 80s) based on
| the Apple watch, despite normally being 98-100. I'm certainly
| not in good shape, but still, should I be worried?
| sp332 wrote:
| Well I don't think it sounds like Covid-19 specifically,
| but it wouldn't hurt to get that checked out. It's not
| something that happens to most people, if that's what
| you're asking.
| nradov wrote:
| Wrist devices are generally not very accurate. I mean they
| can be accurate under ideal conditions, but if you're
| moving around a lot or sweating or the band is loose or you
| have dark or hairy skin then you might get a low reading.
| Better to use a real pulse oximeter that clips onto your
| finger. They're cheaper than an Apple Watch.
| bobthepanda wrote:
| Wasn't there also a thing with the finger oximeters as
| well?
| https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/22/health/oximeters-
| covid-bl...
| hobom wrote:
| I am kind of jaded, but despite the interesting approach, I
| predict that this research will not end up being deployed in time
| to make any difference. The real world pipeline just takes too
| long.
| 14 wrote:
| This does not surprise me one bit. I have a child and every time
| he gets sick his heart rate rises. The last time I noticed the
| heart rate first and called his mom telling her I think he is
| getting sick. The next day he had a fever.
| pintxo wrote:
| Now, will Apple add this as a feature?
| soco wrote:
| For a healthy price premium.
| Jtsummers wrote:
| I get that it's cool to ridicule Apple, but maybe pick
| something they've actually demonstrated a tendency to do in
| the past? In the case of health features on their Watch
| they've been pretty consistent about just making it available
| if the Watch has the right sensors (so older watches don't
| get all the new features because they lack some of the
| necessary sensors).
| freitasm wrote:
| Apple Watch and any other HR monitoring watch...
| sschueller wrote:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26079918
| joshdick wrote:
| It's crazy to think that a tech company like Apple might have the
| clearest picture of the pandemic
| james_pm wrote:
| Amongst rich people with Apple Watches, maybe.
| benbristow wrote:
| Hardly need to be rich to have an Apple Watch, they're not
| that expensive for a tech product really.
| bilekas wrote:
| I don't think it's specific for apple, they did mention that
| the participants just had the apple watch, but from the sounds
| of it, any GPS hear rate monitor would help..
|
| I think Maybe a collective app simular to Strava might be a
| better place to get a collection of data maybe..
| eli wrote:
| The Oura "smart ring" maker claims it can detect early Covid
| from variations in temperature
| https://www.fiercebiotech.com/medtech/oura-study-shows-
| its-s...
| miskin wrote:
| Oura was quite good with warning me that something is not
| ok and I should take it easy on the morning of the day when
| I started to have symptoms. I was tested positive later
| that day. Interestingly, nobody I met days before I was
| warned was infected, so in my case warning came in right
| moment.
| Jtsummers wrote:
| I was going to mention them. Some members of the US
| military were given them as part of a study on COVID
| detection. Basically any wearable sensors covering the
| right metrics can be used for this. The question, really,
| was less about "Can wearable health monitoring equipment
| detect early signs of <disease>?" than "What are the early
| signs which wearables can detect and use for prediction
| once we know them?"
| stuartbman wrote:
| So some big limitations, speaking as a doctor. Firstly, I'm
| surprised that they allowed watches on the ward. They're a huge
| infection risk and most places are bare below the elbows (NHS),
| moreso for covid. Secondly, they only looked at symptomatic covid
| cases (1 day before symptoms started was their prediction as far
| as i can tell. This is completely useless as the 24hrs before
| symptoms start the patient is likely to already be highly
| infectious, and misses the asymptomatic carriers which have an
| indeterminate effect on spread as well. Far better to use the
| semi-proven (but equally controversial) lateral flow tests and
| avoid these risks. In the UK, hundreds of healthcare staff have
| been identified as covid+ >48hrs before symptoms in this way.
| nradov wrote:
| For reducing infection risk one option is to keep the watch in
| a pocket while working on the ward and wear a separate wireless
| heart rate monitor on the chest or upper arm. I don't think
| they did that in this study, just pointing it out as an option
| for healthcare workers who want to track their HRV on the job.
| tinus_hn wrote:
| You state:
|
| > they only looked at symptomatic covid cases
|
| Which means the study cannot be used to prove or disprove this
| claim:
|
| > and misses the asymptomatic carriers
|
| Why is there such a need to hastily dismiss any potential
| improvement?
| ggm wrote:
| it is not unheard of for something at level x to be developed
| to level 2x so if it can do 24h now, with higher sample rate
| and better maths, what if it got to 48h in tractable time?
|
| to the watch-in-a-ward point: valid. But, if this technique did
| get to 48h+ predictive quality, and was available to wearers of
| smart watches _outside of wards_ would you still have hesitancy
| to consider it useful?
| rgbrenner wrote:
| Speaking as a non-doctor, I don't have any lateral flow test
| supplies or equipment. Do they sell that on Amazon?
|
| But seriously, a test I don't have easy access to is not an
| alternative. A lateral flow test has no predictive value to me
| because I'm never going to get one before I'm actually sick.
| sveme wrote:
| Lateral flow tests are rapid test kits to my understanding,
| so they should be available on Amazon if accepted by your
| local medical devices authority.
| yread wrote:
| On the other hand Apple Watch costs like 400$ and UK just
| bought 400M lateral flow tests for 1.3Bn pounds
|
| https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n287
|
| Or you can buy it online for 250$/10 tests (if you can
| swallow that you're being fleeced this much)
| zamfi wrote:
| > But seriously, a test I don't have easy access to is not an
| alternative.
|
| Do you have access to the custom Apple Watch app they used
| here? I don't either.
|
| Health authorities could make either of these available to
| the general public -- the parent poster is making a comment
| about which is more valuable under the assumption of access.
|
| You're not wrong, a test you don't have access to obviously
| has no predictive value for you, but right now we (the
| public) have access to neither, so this isn't a
| distinguishing factor.
|
| Now, if you're making the argument that the Apple Watch app
| would be _easier_ to distribute, then you can read the parent
| 's criticism as "sure, but only knowing _after_ you 've
| potentially spread it is not very useful."
| kelnos wrote:
| > _Do you have access to the custom Apple Watch app they
| used here? I don 't either._
|
| That's pretty immaterial when discussing theoretical
| effectiveness. Obviously, getting wide use depends upon it
| getting packaged up into an app listed on the app store,
| and some sort of awareness push.
|
| That needs to be done once, by the app's authors. For
| lateral flow tests, to have similar effectiveness, that
| means that literally every Apple watch wearer (just to
| assume a similar population size) needs to get themselves a
| supply of tests (and keep getting new tests when they run
| out), and remember to perform the test every day. That is a
| _much_ higher hurdle to jump than getting this app onto
| people 's watches (assuming their study is correct and can
| be independently verified!). I also expect the supply of
| test kits is not robust enough to handle that kind of
| demand.
|
| > _Now, if you 're making the argument that the Apple Watch
| app would be easier to distribute, then you can read the
| parent's criticism as "sure, but only knowing after you've
| potentially spread it is not very useful."_
|
| Reducing spread potential by 24 hours when you've perhaps
| been spreading it for a week already isn't exactly a game
| changer, but it's still useful, especially if the only
| thing people have to do is install an app on their watch.
| Expecting everyone to obtain rapid test kits and test
| themselves daily is in general a non-starter.
| nostromo wrote:
| The data is all readily available in the default Apple
| health app.
|
| Yes, to make these same predictions you'd have to do some
| statistics as described in the paper, but no special app is
| required.
|
| (And that's why this finding is interesting: they have the
| data available from patients before they were sick, because
| every new Apple Watch records this data out of the box.)
| zamfi wrote:
| Yes, the finding is definitely interesting because it
| suggests that we could make this available very broadly
| (i.e., anyone with an appropriate Apple Watch) without
| needing to ship a bunch of hardware.
|
| But the limitations are worth noting: you may already
| have infected people by the time this detects your
| illness. That isn't true for lateral flow tests, making
| the latter more useful as a preventative testing tool
| (again, in the absence of access differences).
|
| However, I don't understand what you're trying to say
| with this claim:
|
| > Yes, to make these same predictions you'd have to do
| some statistics as described in the paper, but no special
| app is required.
|
| "Do some statistics" is approximately as impossible as
| "order lateral flow test reagents" to the general public
| -- a consumable version of either the process described
| in this paper, or the lateral flow kits mentioned
| earlier, needs to be produced by someone skilled here, in
| order for this to be useful to the general public.
| kelnos wrote:
| Getting a warning 24 hours "early" that you might be infected
| is still useful. Perhaps in that 24 hours you were going to
| make a grocery trip and potentially infect a bunch of people,
| but now you won't because you got that early warning.
|
| Claiming that something is useless because it doesn't cover
| _all_ cases seems a little weird to me. It 's a tool in the
| toolbox that can reduce the possibility of spread in a limited
| set of cases.
|
| Using lateral flow tests requires everyone to purchase a big
| supply of them and use one every day. This watch-based warning
| just requires you to have an Apple watch and run a new app on
| it (which I hope they'll make publicly available), and it'll
| just let you know without any extra action taken. Your average
| Apple watch user is probably pretty likely to take the simple
| step of installing a new app; they're not going to buy a supply
| of lateral flow tests (which they probably don't even know much
| about or haven't even heard of) and test themselves every day.
| rimliu wrote:
| Yup. I was lucky the person whom I contracted COVID from
| informed me the moment they got the test result. I was on my
| way to work, just about to leave the car. Turned around and
| went back home. Developed symptoms the same evening. It was a
| lucky coincidence that was Monday so I've stayed home the
| whole weekend and had no contacts for a couple of days I was
| likely already infectious. (The person I got it from only
| developed symptoms two days after our contact). People who do
| contact tracking only on Wednesday. So my contact informing
| me saved three days worth of my potential contacts from
| getting COVID from me.
| Closi wrote:
| > This is completely useless as the 24hrs before symptoms start
| the patient is likely to already be highly infectious, and
| misses the asymptomatic carriers which have an indeterminate
| effect on spread as well.
|
| Nothing is a one-shot-solve-all solution to Covid. If Apple
| watches can detect it and prompt people to go get a full test,
| that's great. I've got an ongoing theory that a lot of the
| spread is by people who ignore their symptoms because 'they
| have a cough but it's not a _covid_ cough' or 'they haven't
| lost their smell so it _can't be covid_ ' so the more things
| that can prompt you to get a test and isolate the better.
| diebeforei485 wrote:
| Why are watches an infection risk?
| BitwiseFool wrote:
| I assume it's because they accumulate crud and bacteria. You
| can wash your hands but you never really wash your watch. I
| also assume that because it's on your wrist every time you
| scratch your body or touch your face the bacteria covered
| watch deposits something icky on contact.
| eightysixfour wrote:
| Oura Ring also ran a study on this (which I was a part of). It is
| interesting because in 2019 I had a severe cold and the Oura Ring
| gave me a very low "Readingess" score in the 2 days leading up to
| it, despite me feeling fine and getting good sleep. I had never
| had readiness scores so low prior to that or since, so I don't
| believe it was any sort of confirmation bias.
|
| Quantified health is going to bring about some amazing QOL
| improvements that we're still only beginning to understand and it
| is one of the areas I am most bullish about for sure.
| bilekas wrote:
| This sounds great, I am going through the PDF, there's a LOT
| there..
|
| But I'm not sure how reliable that it would be just to track the
| position (possible infection radius to known area) And the heart
| rate variability.. Its interesting though! Certainly every little
| helps..
| auslegung wrote:
| Is there anything actionable for us, today, in the study? I'm not
| skilled in reading these, I read the first few paragraphs and
| knew I was over my head.
| blakesterz wrote:
| Ineresting. So... Prior to the diagnosis of COVID-19 by nasal
| PCR, significant changes in heart rate variability (HRV), were
| observed demonstrating its predictive ability to identify
| COVID-19 infection.
|
| So in theory watching your heart rate closely you should be able
| to see it coming?
|
| (I tried to figure out exactly what to watch for and how to
| measure it, but couldn't figure it out, hopefully someone else
| can explain if anyone with a watch could do this)
| whoisburbansky wrote:
| The measure they're talking about, HRV, is measuring variance
| of the peak to peak and trough to trough between successive
| heartbeats. Individual heartbeats are on the order of one or
| two a second, but are remarkably consistent, so this
| measurement of variance is usually on the order of
| milliseconds.
|
| Healthy ranges are, vaguely speaking, above 80ms, with
| unhealthy ranges being much lower, the idea being that when
| you're sick or stressed, your heart rate control falls back to
| the nervous system since your brain has other things to deal
| with, making your heartbeat more consistent, which means lower
| variability. This is generally not great because you want to be
| able to switch up the spacing between beats on the fly for
| better efficiency, kind of like switching gears on a car.
|
| All of this is to say that the measurement they're talking
| about is pretty tiny and you're unlikely to be able to measure
| it accurately manually.
| t-writescode wrote:
| > Healthy ranges are, vaguely speaking, above 80ms
|
| I'm not sure what's being said here is safe or appropriate.
| If you're doing nothing, your heart rate variance won't
| likely change. There's also very little that matters about
| it, just normals, for you.
|
| Every Google Search I've ever done on HRV has turned up that
| fact: HRV is incredibly personal and personal trends matter
| the most.
|
| From my own experience, my HRV is low when I'm not doing
| anything - and why wouldn't it be? I'm not _doing_ anything.
| I have no need for sudden changes when I'm typing on a
| keyboard.
|
| Further, you can be as healthy as a marathon runner and have
| very low HRVs.
| andor wrote:
| " _From my own experience, my HRV is low when I 'm not
| doing anything - and why wouldn't it be? I'm not _doing_
| anything. I have no need for sudden changes when I'm typing
| on a keyboard._"
|
| It's not about whether you "have a need for sudden changes"
| or not, but whether the sympathetic or the parasympathetic
| nervous system has the upper hand. There are many reasons
| for why it could be one or the other, but they are usually
| roughly summarized as "physical or mental stress".
|
| For instance, when you sit at your keyboard and respond to
| someone who is wrong on the Internet, that is likely to
| cause negative emotions and mental stress. This would
| increase sympathetic nervous system activity and as a
| result lower your HRV.
|
| " _Further, you can be as healthy as a marathon runner and
| have very low HRVs._ "
|
| Marathon runners are not always equally healthy. They also
| get sick or stressed sometimes, and quite often they are
| under physical stress due to training a lot. That's why
| some of them observe HRV to get an indication of their
| readiness for high intensity training or competitions (e.g.
| Whoop, Garmin Recovery Advisor).
|
| That means, just sitting at their keyboard their HRV could
| be high or low, depending e.g. on how well they recovered
| from a hard training run.
| ryanmarsh wrote:
| Increased heart rate with decreased SpO2 commonly precedes
| diagnosis of respiratory infection. Increased heart rate alone
| is often seen as a warning to run pathology labs before
| beginning chemotherapy which can destroy neutrophils. Something
| you don't want to do if the patient is in the beginning stages
| of an infection.
|
| I'm not a doctor I've just been around this stuff more than I
| wish to. Frankly I wish the Apple watch was more aggressive in
| reporting anomalies to the user. Something as simple as "we
| noticed your heart rate always increases at this place and
| time" can make the user aware that something is wrong in their
| life... assuming it's not a gym.
| bilekas wrote:
| That would make me nervous, which would mess up my heart rate..
| :)
| secretsatan wrote:
| Surely more than 1 condition can cause heart rate changes? Is
| there a pattern they can match, or is it the most likely cause?
| pwinnski wrote:
| From my reading, many respiratory illnesses can cause these
| symptoms, but right now if you have a respiratory illness at
| all, odd are it's COVID-19, so it's worth at least getting a
| PCR test. And if it's not that, you have a very serious flu or
| something which probably requires treatment as well.
| miskin wrote:
| You are right, I had similar data and same warning as I got
| for COVID-19 from Oura cca year ago with regular flu. It is
| now more important because of COVID-19, but it is also very
| helpful for any similar illness that one may spread.
| l33tman wrote:
| There are lots, as what you really are measuring are subtle
| variations in the sympathetic and parasympathetic drives of the
| heart by the autonomous nerve system. This can get affected by
| lots of things, a quick googling provided dozens of completely
| different papers looking it stuff like heart disease itself,
| but also clinical depression etc.
| IgorPartola wrote:
| Whatever happened with the MIT cough analyzer? That seemed like
| really promising tech that just kind of fell off the news feeds
| and was never mentioned again. I thought they were trying to
| apply for an FDA approval. Latest info is 47 days old:
| https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54780460?fbclid=IwAR1bGR...
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