[HN Gopher] Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for ...
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Cixin Liu's Postscript for the American Edition for "The Three Body
Problem"
Author : markus_zhang
Score : 50 points
Date : 2021-02-07 20:15 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (reader.epubee.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (reader.epubee.com)
| icefrakker wrote:
| There is nothing worse than a writer pumping out pro CCP
| propaganda talking about bringing together humanity. The Chinese
| have no shame, even though shame is something they can certainly
| afford and definitely could use.
| elihu wrote:
| This seems like the most controversial bit here:
|
| > There's a strange contradiction revealed by the naivete and
| kindness demonstrated by humanity when faced with the universe:
| On Earth, humankind can step onto another continent, and without
| a thought, destroy the kindred civilizations found there through
| warfare and disease. But when they gaze up at the stars, they
| turn sentimental and believe that if extraterrestrial
| intelligences exist, they must be civilizations bound by
| universal, noble, moral constraints, as if cherishing and loving
| different forms of life are parts of a self-evident universal
| code of conduct.
|
| > I think it should be precisely the opposite: Let's turn the
| kindness we show toward the stars to members of the human race on
| Earth and build up the trust and understanding between the
| different peoples and civilizations that make up humanity. But
| for the universe outside the solar system, we should be ever
| vigilant, and be ready to attribute the worst of intentions to
| any Others that might exist in space. For a fragile civilization
| like ours, this is without a doubt the most responsible path.
|
| I think his books a good reminder that even the interstellar
| equivalent of saying "howdy neighbor" is incredibly risky. And I
| agree that we should behave better towards each other even if I
| don't look forward to "a day when humanity will form a harmonious
| whole" if that means world government and suppression of "non-
| harmonious" opinions. On the other hand, I don't think that alien
| species are doomed to be adversaries. Populations don't need to
| grow forever exponentially, and empires don't need to always
| expand.
|
| For my part, I think we should be careful about announcing our
| presence and should be very careful around any alien
| civilization, especially those that are more technologically
| advanced than ourselves. But we also could learn a lot from each
| other, and so initially being friendly and abiding by a tit-for-
| tat strategy if they become aggressive seems like a good
| approach.
| alpineidyll3 wrote:
| I really love the 3bp minus the last 100 pages. Even more
| troublesome than the disappointing ending to the book is CL's
| warm stance towards the CCP and it's authoritarianism. Of course
| it doesn't rest on me to decide for others to sacrifice their
| lives for principles, but given the text there's no way to
| interpret it but cynical self-preservation. If nothing else it
| ruins the book for me.
| remolacha wrote:
| Communist party/politics aside, I agree that the beginning of
| the book had seriously next-level sci-fi creativity, but the
| last third of the book really rushed the plot. 3bp also
| would've benefitted from a smaller cast with more character
| development. Still, great material overall. Can't wait to see
| an eventual 3bp movie.
| actuator wrote:
| > 3bp also would've benefitted from a smaller cast with more
| character development.
|
| Maybe it was because of my non familiarity with Chinese names
| or lack of detail to a lot of characters, that I had to
| constantly look back to see names if they appeared again
| after a while. I am not sure why this happened as I have read
| Manga or Manhwa in the past and have been able to hold a lot
| more characters in memory.
| alpineidyll3 wrote:
| I found the number of interesting characters with good
| realization impressive. Also characters of both genders
| were almost equally well realized. It just too bad he
| couldn't bring meaningful resolutions to 90% of them.
| tmp538394722 wrote:
| The huge cast of characters was definitely a challenge for me
| as well.
|
| But I wonder sometimes if it's more a cultural difference
| than simply some kind of "failure" on the authors part.
|
| Have you seen those videos where old communist leaders gave
| speeches, they declare some good news, some achievement, and
| the crowd claps and cheers, and _so does the leader_. Watch
| Stalin, watch Mao.
|
| To a westerner it looks like they are clapping for themself -
| taking credit for the victory.
|
| But in communism, the results are not that of a "brilliant
| leader", but rather the results of history unfolding. They
| aren't clapping for themselves, but for society's
| progression.
|
| I think, similarly in this way, 3bp doesn't have the "hero
| narrative" that western authors favor, because the
| protagonist of 3bp is society as a whole, while the
| characters themselves are just minor witnesses.
| jnsaff2 wrote:
| I hope you have read the sequels. The Dark Forest is I believe
| the most mind-expanding of them and Deaths End goes pretty wild
| but is still very interesting.
|
| I had the luxury of finding out about the problematic CCP
| leanings after finishing them all. But can't bring myself to
| pick up anything other by him.
| varjag wrote:
| Any good aspiring-communist society book has to have either a
| Communist Youth or a Commissar character. It's the canon.
| free_rms wrote:
| I didn't get that from it at all. The theme of the last book is
| a conflict between values and survival. What's the point of
| survival if you sacrifice all values to do so?
|
| Liu is Chinese just like most of HN are American so there will
| be different default stances on international politics, but the
| books did not read as jingoistic to me.
| newen wrote:
| Most Americans are under the impression that Chinese citizens
| secretly hate their government but can't speak up due to the
| authoritarian tendencies of the ruling CCP. Of course, any
| news that contradict this feeling can be ascribed to CCP
| propaganda. And of course, when asked to examine the source
| of this feeling, it can never be American propaganda but cold
| hard facts.
| actuator wrote:
| It doesn't have to be most actually, just the ability to
| let out what even few are thinking.
|
| Look at what's happening in India. An elected government on
| a clear majority, passed new laws and some section of
| people which are not happy with it, have held the
| government to ransom through protests. There seems to be
| international civil society support for the protests as it
| seems like the powerless going against an all powerful
| government.
|
| Without going into the merits of the protests in this
| particular example, just the fact that even a small section
| is able to express themselves is a good thing. One can
| always argue that this can become counter productive, but I
| guess that's better than people suffering silently.
|
| Having said this, I don't doubt that the majority of people
| in PRC, at least Han Chinese are massively better off in
| the last 40 years.
| free_rms wrote:
| What's happening in India is that farmers were/are going
| to be screwed, and they're really mad about it.
|
| What _has_ happened in China is that a billion farmers
| are massively, undescribably better off. You literally
| cannot describe it to the average American, their scale
| for lifestyle doesn 't go that low.
| actuator wrote:
| > What has happened in China is that a billion farmers
| are massively, undescribably better off.
|
| After Great Leap forward? Cultural Revolution? What about
| the farmers of the marginalized communities in Tibet and
| Xinjiang. I am not saying all that gets printed in
| Western press is true but it is not all fabricated up as
| well. There was an actual cost to getting here, which
| might not have happened in a democratic setup.
|
| > What's happening in India is that farmers were/are
| going to be screwed, and they're really mad about it.
|
| From news reports it seems only a section of farmers, as
| the protests are concentrated in few areas. But as I said
| in the comment above I don't want to go into the
| merits/demerits of it, as looking from outside we both
| will not have the complete info. You can call them
| capitalist interests but most of the expert opinion from
| a farming/economics standpoint within the country and
| outside seems to support the laws.
| free_rms wrote:
| Can you name the dates and major events within the Great
| Leap forward or Cultural Revolution without googling and
| reading wikipedia?
|
| I'm not trying to assert authority here but you could
| look at the last 500 years, the last 200, 100, years, the
| last 50 years.. cherrypicking a 25 year period that
| happened between 70-45 years ago is kinda weird if you're
| after understanding rather than scoring points.
| newen wrote:
| I'm just trying to explain the dynamics of typical HN
| comments regarding Chinese citizens, where the usually
| American commenter writes under the assumption that the
| Chinese citizen is held under this brutal dictatorship
| and must use any and all opportunity to speak up and/or
| oppose this brutal dictatorship. It's a relatively recent
| phenomenon in American politics and it's interesting to
| think about.
| Udik wrote:
| What's even more interesting is that, despite being a
| recent phenomenon, everybody seems convinced it's
| absolutely normal to think in these terms. And yet I am
| sure than only four or five years ago people were talking
| about China in an entirely different way.
| Udik wrote:
| I agree on the principle: being able to openly protest is
| better than not. Once this has been said, there is a big
| difference between a tyrannical government that keeps
| people in poverty and an authoritarian one that has
| brought many hundreds of millions to a western standard
| of life and made the country a credible competitor to the
| only other world super-power.
|
| I perfectly understand a Chinese being proud of their
| country, their government and their CCP- as much as
| Americans are proud of their country despite their 2
| million imprisoned people, dual-party system that allows
| no competition, police violence, decades of wars waged
| around the world and support for dictatorships and coups
| to overthrow democratically elected leaders. Things
| _could_ certainly be even better and hopefully with time
| they will be- but this attitude of fixating on one aspect
| to justify a black-and-white view of the world- in which
| your side is the good one- is damn stupid.
| PradeetPatel wrote:
| Some may call it self preservation, I would consider it to be a
| good business move. It is also possible that he was pressured
| by his publisher to include the postscript to alleviate
| potential pressure from governmental stakeholders.
|
| It has been established that the author's own political views,
| no matter how incorrect, will have an impact on the story. This
| is evident in 3BP.
| alpineidyll3 wrote:
| With his current profile if he wished to renounce his support
| and seek asylum, he could. It would be a stinging betrayal
| for the party, more effective than any protest that was ever
| waged for HK... And it wouldn't endanger him or his fortune.
| actuator wrote:
| He might be happy and content there. Also, leaving your
| homeland is a tough decision and he would lose his home
| audience potentially if he is vocal.
| [deleted]
| da_big_ghey wrote:
| It is well known that the CCP holds one's family hostage in
| cases when one goes abroad, as collateral against one's
| return:
|
| https://www.businessinsider.com/liu-changming-china-holds-
| of...
|
| https://www.businessinsider.com/how-china-deals-with-
| dissent...
|
| It is an open secret that this is the case for many
| students who come to American universities, and this is
| often how they coerce them into sending back IP and trade
| secrets. I would shudder to imagine what might befall the
| family of a prominent defector that so humiliated the
| party.
| glenstein wrote:
| I think it's true in those circumstances, but I don't
| believe that's part of a systematic policy.
|
| I would imagine that the possibility of Cixin Liu leaving
| would be contingent on whatever the idiosyncrasies are of
| his personal circumstances. I would say he's not
| _necessarily_ constrained by the examples you 've cited,
| though they raise a valid concern.
| elihu wrote:
| Yeah, it also seemed a bit jarring to me how modern China is
| portrayed so positively in the trilogy. Perhaps this is also
| how books by Americans are seen in China? One could make a case
| that, say, Tom Clancy novels are pro-American cold war
| propaganda. (That's not really my view, but I could understand
| why someone, especially a reader from one of our cold-war
| adversaries, might think that.)
|
| I think the most jarring bits are plot points where some
| ideology crops up that's contrary to whatever goals the
| countries of the world have decided to pursue, so they just
| make that opinion illegal and that's the end of it. And then
| I'm like: "that's not how that works in most of the world". In
| North Korea that might work, and maybe in China, but not
| anywhere with reasonably well-established human rights.
|
| It was also interesting how China was always saving the day.
| That's sort of expected of any author to make their own country
| the heroes, but I couldn't help but wonder if that's really
| what he wanted to write, or if writing a story that could be
| construed as a criticism of modern China would get him in
| trouble in some ways.
|
| On the other hand, a big early part of the first book was about
| how awful the cultural revolution was. Is it considered
| politically acceptable these days in China to acknowledge the
| past failings of communist government, even if criticizing the
| current policies often is not?
| pasabagi wrote:
| The current CCP consists of those who pushed back against the
| excesses of the cultural revolution - I think you get much
| less scrutiny for criticising than celebrating this part of
| Mao's legacy - I know of one instance where somebody was
| arrested for making a big-character poster with 'the cultural
| revolution was good', for instance.
| boulos wrote:
| If there's anyone out there that has read the trilogy in both the
| original Mandarin as well as the English translations, I'd love
| to get their take on the effect of translation.
|
| If I remember correctly, I found The Three Body Problem super
| pleasant to read and engaging. By contrast, I liked the _idea_ of
| Dark Forest but found it almost painful to read. The chapters
| were strangely broken up (some extremely long, etc.) and so on.
| Back to Death 's End and the "writing" improved again.
|
| So was it the swap of the translators? Is Ken Liu's translation
| for Books 1 and 3 just more amenable to my western sensibility,
| or is Book 2 really just quite different, even in the original?
| elihu wrote:
| I had the same experience with the English versions; the first
| and third books were more pleasant to read. (I don't read
| Mandarin.) I attribute it to the translator, but would also be
| interested to know if there was a difference in the source
| material as well.
| _henrywu wrote:
| I had the same experience just a few minutes in to Dark Forest.
| I immediately googled to see if anyone else was struggling with
| the translation or if it was just me.
|
| I found many passages difficult to get through, and I'd
| constantly realise I'd read an entire page without taking
| anything in. Book 3 and 4 where both much easier to read, and
| they were both translated by Ken Liu.
|
| (Haven't read the mandarin versions though)
| steve_adams_86 wrote:
| Likewise. The idea of the dark forest was exhilarating and got
| the mental gears turning like crazy. I hadn't encountered this
| idea before and I expected really engaging content.
|
| The book was a bit of a slog, though. Still good without a
| doubt, just nowhere near as flowing and page-turning as the one
| before it.
|
| I went into the third book slightly worried it might have
| progressed further in that direction, but you're right, it was
| a step back in the right direction.
| free_rms wrote:
| Apparently the evil alien robot in book 3 is _waaaaay_ more
| Japenese-sounding in Mandarin.
| martin_balsam wrote:
| I think Ken Liu is a writer on his own right first, and a
| translator second. that might be part of the reason
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Liu
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