[HN Gopher] An F-117 pilot and the officer who shot him down mee...
___________________________________________________________________
An F-117 pilot and the officer who shot him down meet, 15 years
later (2013)
Author : yutyut
Score : 157 points
Date : 2021-02-07 18:56 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.rd.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.rd.com)
| MarkusWandel wrote:
| Worldwide, the sort of divisions where one's own side is all good
| and the other side is unspeakably evil, are on the upswing again.
| Having lived through a full cycle of this (old style cold
| war/thaw/current situation) I try to remind people that we're all
| humans, and about 99% everywhere have the same instincts to
| survive and get along. Not everyone listens.
| GiorgioG wrote:
| > about 99% everywhere have the same instincts to survive and
| get along
|
| I just finished listening to The Doomsday Machine audiobook
| (https://www.amazon.com/The-Doomsday-Machine-
| audiobook/dp/B07...) and it's had a profound effect on how I
| see our military leadership's nuclear strategy. While the book
| delves primarily into the 1950s-80s, as far as the author is
| concerned (he worked as a consultant on nuclear strategy,) the
| policies have not materially changed since then. Some examples
| of some things that were eye-opening to me:
|
| - The military deliberately hid their nuclear war strategy from
| the secretary of defense (and thus the president, etc.) for
| years.
|
| - US Presidents often invoke the threat of nuclear attack to
| force nations to bend to its will - to this day, democrats and
| republicans alike.
|
| - The gov't has done a good job of selling that only the
| president can order a nuclear strike, but in practice there's a
| lot more people involved that can launch a nuclear attack
| without requiring clearance (in years past, this was due to
| potential communication issues, but even to this day these
| remain in order to counter potential 'decapitation' attacks.
| This delegation system means we're one person's mistake (or
| mental illness) from starting a world-ending cascade of nuclear
| strikes as other nations respond in kind.
|
| I'm under no delusion that the world can do away with nuclear
| weapons, but maybe we should stop threatening to use it first
| like it's no big deal. It seems that our military leadership
| historically isn't exactly in that 99% group of folks who want
| to live and get along.
| tharkun__ wrote:
| We've been very very close (probably more than once).
|
| https://www.vox.com/2018/9/26/17905796/nuclear-
| war-1983-stan...
|
| In short: Russian early warning system operator sees 5
| minuteman ICBMs coming towards them. He does not have time to
| go check with someone. If they are to retaliate, he has to
| just launch now. No such thing as "waiting for the president
| to decide to launch". He didn't. Turned out reflections of
| the sunlight off clouds set off their sensors.
| iaw wrote:
| This reminds me of the Soviet blockade of West Berlin. Virtually
| overnight two sides that had been trying to kill each other were
| working hand in hand to save the Germans living in Berlin.
| [deleted]
| hollerith wrote:
| >Virtually overnight
|
| Except that the blockade began 3 years after hostilities
| between the US and Germany ended.
| lb1lf wrote:
| -Considering the scale of the hostilities, I don't think it
| is much hyperbole to suggest the turn in attitude happened
| virtually overnight.
|
| I do seem to recall that the Berlin airlift more than any
| other event was what turned the inhabitants of the western
| zones around from seeing the Allies as occupants to, well,
| allies.
| ggerules wrote:
| Thank you for sharing this amazing story. Now I need to go find
| this documentary.
| marcodiego wrote:
| Air forces of the world seem to have their own more strict code
| of honor, moral or mutual respect. Hermann Goering is known to
| have enjoyed some hospitality after surrendering[1]. Also Franz
| Stigler escorted a badly damaged US bomber to safety[2].
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnX5HXbRbcA
|
| [2]
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Brown_and_Franz_Stigle...
| effie wrote:
| It is so weird that men in army are willing to go and kill each
| other and later behave as friends "because they have a shared
| experience". Is it a coping mechanism to help oneself'
| conscience? Or maybe just an example that we really are just
| machines following the program of the day?
| pluto9 wrote:
| It's not weird at all. Soldiers on opposite sides have a lot in
| common, just as you might have a lot in common with someone of
| your profession from a different country. Their conflict is
| that of their respective countries, or they may think they're
| serving a good cause. But in either case, it's not personal.
|
| It's also a mistake to think that every time a soldier shows an
| ounce of humanity, they're only doing it to "help their
| conscience". Soldiers are usually not the tortured individuals
| Hollywood portrays them to be. Why should these two men's
| consciences bother them? NATO troops thought they were
| defending the oppressed, and Serbian troops thought they were
| defending their sovereignty.
| lostlogin wrote:
| I think you are attributing a lot of what goes on to choice -
| war has a poor track record in this regard and soldiers are
| often recruited very young and/or conscripted. Even the US
| recruits soldiers defined by the Convention on the protection
| of children (below 18). Schools are used for recruiting in
| many places.
|
| This aspect of war is really sad - giving kids and young
| adults guns and sending them off to shoot people is widely
| glorified. It is estimated that 70% of conflicts involve
| child soldiers, though any measurement is hard due variable
| definitions and the difficulty in measuring.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Rights_of_.
| ..
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_in_the_military
|
| https://www.savethechildren.org/us/charity-stories/child-
| sol...
| pluto9 wrote:
| I'm talking about the men in this article. Both of them
| were career military officers. It's fair to say that that
| was their choice.
|
| Certainly there's propaganda that goes into recruiting
| naive young people in the US, but it's quite a stretch to
| equate that with child soldiers. I chose to enlist and so
| did everyone I served with. The vast majority of us do not
| regret it or feel that we were conned.
| effie wrote:
| Why did you enlist, at what age? In retrospective, do you
| think it made you stronger/more mature? Or was it a money
| thing?
| jki275 wrote:
| Oh stop the hand wringing.
|
| The US doesn't recruit child soldiers.
|
| The very few who actually sign up when they are 17 are
| almost all 18 before they go to bootcamp, and of the
| extremely rare ones who aren't they are 18 before they go
| to their first command or do anything at all. They are not
| allowed to deploy outside the US or participate in any
| hostilities until they are 18.
| effie wrote:
| 18 year olds men are mentally immature. Not children, but
| for sure they are teenagers.
| effie wrote:
| > Why should these two men's consciences bother them?
|
| It would bother me, so I'm projecting.
|
| But good points. I am also more inclined to understand this
| as a case of people "just working here". Like Germans were.
| pluto9 wrote:
| There's an element of the "just working here" mentality,
| but it's more than that. I was in Afghanistan more than a
| decade ago, and in my mind, we were fighting against the
| abuses and brutality of the Taliban. The guy shooting at me
| from a mountainside with a PKM was "one of them", a
| legitimate bad guy.
|
| In retrospect, I realize that guy was probably much like
| me. A young guy, full of testosterone and looking for
| adventure, with notions of being part of something grand
| and heroic (repelling an invader) and a certain naivete
| about the larger forces and agendas that were using him.
| We'd probably get along if we met now.
|
| Awhile back I saw a conversation on Reddit between an
| American soldier who fought in Ramadi (or maybe Fallujah, I
| can't remember) and an Iraqi soldier who was there at the
| same time fighting against the Americans. There was no ill
| will at all, just storytelling and reminiscing, and talking
| about the courses of their lives, families, and careers
| since then. The fact was that these guys had almost
| everything in common about that time in their lives, and
| had similar motivations for taking part in it. The only
| difference was that they happened to be on opposite sides.
| rascul wrote:
| > Awhile back I saw a conversation on Reddit between an
| American soldier who fought in Ramadi (or maybe Fallujah,
| I can't remember) and an Iraqi soldier who was there at
| the same time fighting against the Americans.
|
| Any chance you might be able to dig up that link? I think
| it might be interesting to read it.
| pluto9 wrote:
| Unfortunately I can't find it now. I was looking for it
| earlier because I wanted to reread it myself. Wish I'd
| bookmarked it at the time. Sorry about that.
| s5300 wrote:
| >>Soldiers are usually not the tortured individuals Hollywood
| portrays them to be.
|
| I don't know nor care of Hollywood portrayals, but you should
| consider looking at some suicide statistics and then
| apologizing.
| pluto9 wrote:
| Sure, let me just call up all my buddies from my old
| platoon and apologize to them because some internet know-
| it-all said I should feel sorry for them. They're all doing
| great, so they'll laugh at me, but that's probably just an
| act. Thanks for enlightening me to their true plight.
|
| Have you looked at the actual numbers? I said _usually_.
| The veteran suicide rate is roughly double that of
| civilians [1]. Obviously that 's a problem, but it's still
| a very small minority. Veterans are not dropping like
| flies.
|
| [1] https://backhome.news21.com/article/suicide/
| mhh__ wrote:
| Modern warfare is increasingly buttons rather than bullets, so
| the psychology is different to (say) meeting the man who
| bayonetted you after the end of the great war.
| [deleted]
| creato wrote:
| There are similar and even more extreme examples from when
| war was definitely not "buttons":
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_truce
|
| I think the sibling comment to yours is a better explanation.
| hellotomyrars wrote:
| They had the same experience. They didn't choose to fight each
| other as a matter of specificity, they chose to serve their
| country.
|
| Soldiers are effectively tools of a nation and most of them
| understand that. They were both doing their jobs and why should
| they take it personally? They both came out the other side and
| if their roles had been reversed they would have done the same
| thing.
| effie wrote:
| Yeah I get that point of view, "I'm here just following
| orders, no hard feelings". And that is part of what is weird
| to me in these stories from wars, that people are so
| malleable and empty and later talk big about respecting the
| other side. Well respect them and don't bomb/shoot missiles
| at them then. Also, the article sounds very artistic and
| fake, I'm not totally buying it.
| kipchak wrote:
| Without getting into the politics of it, the purpose of the
| air strikes according to NATO to "to halt and reverse the
| humanitarian catastrophe that was then unfolding."[1] -
| specifically a "ethnic cleansing campaign"[2]. I think it's
| possible the pilot or others to feel they're there for
| reasonable reasons, even if they don't hold any particular
| ill will towards the guy on the other side.
|
| [1]https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_48818.htm
|
| [2]https://www.nato.int/kosovo/history.htm
| effie wrote:
| > I think it's possible the pilot or others to feel
| they're there for reasonable reasons, even if they don't
| hold any particular ill will towards the guy on the other
| side.
|
| I agree, it is possible that the man in the article
| thought that. But I think it more probable that once you
| choose to work for military as a profession, you are
| either very misinformed or do not really care about the
| actual purpose of the bombing.
| cassepipe wrote:
| Can't agree more. "Just doing my job" is a pretty shallow
| justification for killing another person on vague grounds
| of "defend my country". Even more so when flying an
| airplane and just dropping bombs all over the fucking
| place.
| effie wrote:
| Glad I'm not alone here. I can respect people in 2nd WW
| thinking "I believe they are evil and must be stopped and
| I will do anything to help that goal". I can't respect
| "I'm just working here".
| arminiusreturns wrote:
| Anecdotal, but I've witnessed this effect in more than just
| military men, but rather in males in general. I know lots of
| guys who tell a story that contains something like; "we got
| into a fight, but later we became friends"... I'm both, and
| have done the same. Perhaps there is some more fundamental male
| psychology at play here?
| shoo wrote:
| Interesting to rewind to before the engagement & think about the
| odds of them both ending up alive years later: there was a chance
| that Zoltan would be killed by taking a risky third look with the
| radar from a fixed position. There was a fair chance that both
| missiles hit Zelko's plane, a chance that any single missile hit
| would be enough to kill him or render him unable to eject, and a
| fair chance of him dying anyway even if he did manage to eject.
| Also a chance that both missiles missed and there would be
| nothing to write about.
| pastrami_panda wrote:
| For those curious (the article doesn't address it) it was the
| bomb hatch that momentarily gave away the planes position.
|
| I'm curious as to how such a huge oversight in the design of the
| craft made it to production, since it's widely known that 90
| degree angles is a surefire way to get instantly detected on
| radar.
| toephu2 wrote:
| > I'm curious as to how such a huge oversight in the design of
| the craft made it to production
|
| Do you work in military aircraft production? (just curious of
| your background)
| pastrami_panda wrote:
| Sorry I realize I came off very rude, it was not my
| intention. When I learned about this hatch and saw the
| pictures I was just so surprised since it _seems_ the design
| could be improved to reduce the radar signature significantly
| by using the standard practices they use for the rest of the
| craft. Just curious if this was an oversight or what the
| motivations behind the design were.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| How else do you release bombs? I believe that even modern
| stealth aircraft are more vulnerable when releasing missiles or
| bombs.
|
| The thing is if the aircraft gets to the point of releasing
| bombs or missiles it has pretty much done its job. You won't
| get that far without being stealthy.
| KMag wrote:
| The GP is suggesting the doors should have had zig-zag edges.
|
| However, from what I've read, it sounds like radar reflectons
| from the doors themselves are dwarfed by radar signals
| bouncing off the upper bulkhead of the bomb bay. If they made
| the side bulkheads of the bomb bay at 90 degrees to the upper
| bulkhead, then an incoming radio wave bouncing off both the
| upper and side bulkheads will leave anti-parallel to its
| incoming direction... right back at the sending radar. (This
| geometric identity is used on the laser reflectors left on
| the moon. They send the laser right back at the sender
| without having to track the Earth.)
|
| Though, maybe the reporting I've read is just imprecise, and
| maybe the doors do have a larger radar cross-section than the
| bomb bays themselves.
| jasonwatkinspdx wrote:
| The GP is asserting, without any evidence at all, that the
| designers simply did not think about the radar return from
| the bomb bay opening. That's a rather absurd position to
| take, vs the more banal explanation that engineering always
| involves tradeoffs.
| pastrami_panda wrote:
| From the top of my head using a hatch that folds up into an
| empty space _seems_ like could reduce the radar signature
| significantly. I guess better yet a sliding door if avoiding
| empty space is paramount. I 'm no expert but it just seems
| odd to expose several right angles when it seems it could be
| easily avoided?
| spockz wrote:
| The doors could recess and roll away? I'm not an aeronautical
| engineer so no idea what that would do with the radar profile
| nor the flight characteristics of the plane.
| lostdog wrote:
| The bombs could be ejected at high speed along with the outer
| hatch door, kind of like a magazine, and then a secondary
| inner hatch closes to cover the hole.
|
| ...but I'm also not an aircraft designer.
| zerkten wrote:
| You can only reduce the window that the aircraft is
| vulnerable, or deploy some kind of countermeasure to provide
| additional cover.
|
| Only in the worst kind of situation is it acceptable to lose
| an aircraft like this, especially when you have control of
| the airspace. In most cases, stealth aircraft should be
| detected so late that you can't mount an initial defense, or
| an effective counter attack while the aircraft is returning
| to base.
| jki275 wrote:
| That's not an oversight. Stealth is a continuum, not a binary
| thing.
| redis_mlc wrote:
| From what I've read, the US got complacent and flew the same
| air routes at the same time daily, and in this case the pilot
| did a climb. The Serb battery commander studied the above and
| just waited until the right moment.
| pdoege wrote:
| It was less about technical factors relating to stealth than
| human factors.
|
| The USAF reused the route packages and the shooters knew the
| approximate location and timing of the flight. A Serbian asset
| tipped off the shooters that the normal SEAD assets would not
| be present. Without SEAD the shooters were able to keep
| transmitting long enough to see the plane. There were 3 F-117
| in the flight, only one had its doors open long enough for the
| shooters to acquire.
|
| Different routes, randomized timing, SEAD presence, better
| stealth hygiene and it would have been just another night.
|
| The Serbian commander comes across as skilled, creative, and
| diligent. The USAF comes across as lazy and sloppy that night.
| codeproject wrote:
| A wonderful story indeed, heart warming with a sense of humor.
| War is really stupid. But there is still an unsolved mystery
| here, How did the radar pick up the signals? Didn't the pilot
| turn off all the radios?
| girvo wrote:
| I believe the bomb door gave him away
|
| https://theaviationgeekclub.com/an-in-depth-analysis-of-how-...
| DoctorNick wrote:
| "lmao you got wrekt, nerd"
| nimbius wrote:
| This wasnt very surprising when it happened as historically The
| united states is its own worst enemy when it comes to military
| counterintelligence assessments. Id surmise no general wants to
| openly admit to the enemies asymmetric advantage.
|
| Francis Gary Powers was no doubt stunned to find his U2 spyplane
| tumbling from the skies in 1960 thanks to what I can only imagine
| is inherent bias in the war room against the enemy. Its also
| worth noting the Tupolev TU95 bear left Washington scratching its
| heads for nearly a decade, furiously revising the numbers for
| speed and range.
| https://web.archive.org/web/20081211055010/http://www.aviati...
|
| in 2006 china managed to tail a US aircraft carrier and emerge in
| torpedo range with a Song 039 type submarine, a generation behind
| the US, which was previously thought incapable of such an
| operation. https://thediplomat.com/2015/11/closest-encounter-
| since-2006...
|
| Those unfamiliar with history text might also recall the day when
| Iran not only detected but casually landed a sophisticated US
| military drone at one of its airbases.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93U.S._RQ-170_incid...
| rjsw wrote:
| > in 2006 china managed to tail a US aircraft carrier and
| emerge in torpedo range with a Song 039 type submarine, a
| generation behind the US, which was previously thought
| incapable of such an operation.
|
| The alternative version of that story is that the Carrier Group
| commander was quietly commended for not giving away how far out
| they detected the submarine.
| jariel wrote:
| "stunned to find his U2 spyplane tumbling from the skies in
| 1960 thanks to what I can only imagine is inherent bias in the
| war room against the enemy"
|
| The U2 has been flying for literally decades, even to this day,
| relatively unencumbered. The performance ratio is way in the
| favour of 'confident war room'.
|
| Also - it's hard to say anything about submarines, they're so
| clouded in secrecy, I think the truth tends not to come out
| until a couple of decades after the fact.
| jki275 wrote:
| It certainly hasn't been flying over the Soviet Union.
|
| It became obsolete in 1960. That doesn't mean it was no
| longer useful anywhere.
| JoeyBananas wrote:
| What exactly does this incident have to do with
| counterintelligence? I think you are using that word
| incorrectly. I also don't understand what those linked
| incidents have in common. Sure, the US military isn't
| invulnerable and there is always risk associated with combat.
| ip26 wrote:
| I think they are saying the US systematically underestimates
| the enemy's capability so it probably wasn't actually that
| surprising an F117 was downed.
| tharkun__ wrote:
| If the US military and government are anything like
| American companies, then they're good at marketing. Wait, I
| think with the military it's called propaganda.
|
| I also grew up thinking a Stealth Fighter could never be
| shot down. It's invisible. No way.
| x32n23nr wrote:
| Another famous example of how in the darkest hours there's
| longing for peace and friendship is the Christmas Truce during
| the first world war [1].
|
| British soldiers heard German troops in the trenches singing
| carols and patriotic songs. They started shouting messages to
| each other. The next day, soldiers from both sides met, exchanged
| gifts, took photographs and played football.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_truce
| oconnor663 wrote:
| The article also reminded me of a story from the aftermath of
| the My Lai massacre:
|
| > In 1998, Thompson and Colburn returned to the village of Son
| My, where they met some of the people they saved during the
| killings, including Thi Nhung and Pham Thi Nhanh, two women who
| had been part of the group about to be killed by Brooks's 2nd
| Platoon. Thompson said to the survivors, "I just wish our crew
| that day could have helped more people than we did." He
| reported that one of the women they had helped out came up to
| him and asked, "Why didn't the people who committed these acts
| come back with you?" He said that he was "just devastated" but
| that she finished her sentence: "So we could forgive them."
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Thompson_Jr.
| u678u wrote:
| And the next day started shooting at each other again. Humans
| are truly weird.
| 7952 wrote:
| Unofficial live and let live systems carried on...
|
| https://www.ias.edu/ideas/2014/chiu-war
|
| Unwillingness to die is _really_ common in war
| neogodless wrote:
| I didn't see it covered in this article and the documentary is
| unavailable through normal streaming at this time. (Anyone in the
| U.S. find otherwise?)
|
| But what I was hoping to find out was _how_ the identifies of
| each party was discovered, presumably by the documentary maker?
| welder wrote:
| > one woman said to me, "When you were shot down, I celebrated. I
| cheered with my friends. But we were upset that you were not
| killed. We thought you deserved to die." You can imagine the hush
| in the audience. And then she said, "But now that we have gotten
| to know you, I'm so glad that you are here." I was weeping.
|
| > There's so much misunderstanding in the world resulting in
| unnecessary sorrow. Having the Danis--a positive, joyful family--
| in my life has altered my perspective. It may sound trite, but if
| only there were a way for all the religious, cultural, and ethnic
| groups of the world to meet and get to know one another in a
| meaningful way--the way Zoltan and I have--how could we ever go
| to war again?
| nexthash wrote:
| Here's the documentary film that was created about this
| encounter:
|
| https://optimisticfilm.com/videos/docs/the-second-meeting/
| shimonabi wrote:
| The joke at that time was Serbs saying: "Sorry, we didn't know it
| was invisible."
| aerosmile wrote:
| There is so much gold in here. The human race would do well to
| explore how it's possible to turn hatred into love. It clearly
| happened here, and I've witnessed it on a smaller scale as a 16
| year old in Vienna. As an immigrant, it was easy to find yourself
| in the wrong place at a wrong time. That finally happened one
| night, and the only thing that saved me was seeing a sign on one
| of the guys' jackets that belonged to a soccer club where I
| played in a young division (these guys were lifelong supporters,
| so my small achievement was enough to view me in a completely
| different light).
|
| Deeply embedded in our evolutionary story is the urge to protect
| people you have something in common with (and I suppose this
| works the other way around as well). How easy would it be to hack
| this trait and increase the chances of world peace by consciously
| exploiting it on a global scale? Think of it as next-gen UN, but
| instead of focusing on top-down conflict resolution, we would
| work from the bottom up and search for things we're passionate
| about and can connect with people from across the world to
| collaborate on. Rule #1: teams should not be divided on a country
| by country basis.
| cheschire wrote:
| I don't believe war requires hatred, no more than sport. Some
| people wind up in war through machinations that have nothing to
| do with even the acknowledgment of the enemy's existence.
|
| Go here, wait there, if your life is in danger, return the
| danger back at them.
| aerosmile wrote:
| As someone who witnessed war preparations in two very
| different countries and with more than a decade in between, I
| can tell you what they had in common: people at the top had
| to convince the majority of the population that the war was
| necessary. In each case, the arguments were sloppy and could
| have been pushed back on. I would argue that giving people
| more data points would increase the decisioning threshold for
| such actions.
| 7952 wrote:
| A few lies and myths can snowball into a narrative that
| makes war logical and even noble. Conspiracy theories turn
| every data point into something that confirms the myth.
| People really believe that they are in the right. And the
| most appalling acts can seem logically consistent.
| lostlogin wrote:
| Having ones fighting forces being primarily composed of
| young people is helpful in this regard. Not only are they
| usually physically fit, they haven't had a ton of life
| experience and are more likely to do what they are told
| without question. The point isn't for them to think, they
| don't need more data, they need to do what they are told.
| frereubu wrote:
| Stefan Zweig's book The World of Yesterday is very good on
| this as regards WWI from the point of view of Austria-
| Hungary.
|
| Your comment also reminds me of a phrase from one of the
| last surviving British soliders from WWI, Harry Patch: "If
| two Governments can't agree give them a rifle each and let
| them fight it out. Don't lose 20,000 men. It isn't worth
| it."
| sneak wrote:
| I think the world would be better off if people simply
| refused the initial "Go here" order from someone who cares
| nothing for their own life, or the lives of those "there".
|
| War cannot be waged without soldiers, and no one is born a
| soldier.
|
| This requires the cultural de-glorification of soldering-as-
| profession. Millions of tax dollars are spent on advertising
| to ensuring it remains, and many companies are complicit in
| furthering it (priority boarding, discounts, et c). I shop
| elsewhere whenever possible.
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| First, good commanding officers _do_ care for the lives of
| their soldiers.
|
| Second, those who don't have soldiers can still die by
| someone else's soldiers.
| acct776 wrote:
| > how it's possible to turn hatred into love.
|
| Remove yourself from the influence of the military-industrial-
| Congressional complex.
| jki275 wrote:
| War is almost never about hate or love.
|
| War is a tool of diplomacy.
|
| Both of these men were simply professionals doing their jobs.
| The one attacking, the one defending. It's unlikely they ever
| hated each other or even really thought a great deal beyond how
| to accomplish their respective missions at the time.
| jacquesm wrote:
| > War is a tool of diplomacy.
|
| More often than not war is a means of pursuing business
| interests.
| jki275 wrote:
| Certainly not in this case.
| tobmlt wrote:
| I think we'd have this already/automatically as our
| interconnectivity has grown.
|
| It's media and government propaganda stoking fear of the other
| for their gain which actively thwarts it. -- up to the point
| which it can live organically once again in the greater
| populace.
|
| But that's just like, my opinion, man.
| TimTheTinker wrote:
| > Rule #1: teams should not be divided on a country by country
| basis.
|
| I don't think I agree. It's great for individuals and countries
| to be friendly, but I see two problems with a one-world-
| government system:
|
| 1. It concentrates an extreme quantity of power in the hands of
| a few people. Power has a potential of corrupting those who
| hold it, and I believe that potential increases on an
| exponential (or at least an algebraic) scale, not a linear
| scale.
|
| 2. If an evil personage gains power (think 20th century
| dictators), a single world country would suffer significantly.
| But having countries separated provides a limit and a check on
| the potential fallout of that dictator's actions.
| [deleted]
| jacquesm wrote:
| You'll never hear a story like this about a drone pilot.
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