[HN Gopher] The Feminine Physique: On Women's Bodybuilding
___________________________________________________________________
The Feminine Physique: On Women's Bodybuilding
Author : unpredict
Score : 80 points
Date : 2021-02-07 18:30 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (believermag.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (believermag.com)
| DC1350 wrote:
| Off topic but do female body builders also use testosterone
| injections for muscle building?
| polote wrote:
| yes
| bluedino wrote:
| Yes.
|
| The Ms. Olympia bodybuilding competition just returned last
| year, after going away for the previous five years.
|
| The large amounts of muscle the woman had to put on had
| basically fallen out of style with fans, and they e basically
| replaced it with "fitness" classes for the women competitors.
| bluecalm wrote:
| Testosterone is popular among women as well. Injections are in
| general safer than oral (because of liver health). Most women
| start with Anavar though as the risk of developing masculine
| features is reduced with it and the pill form makes it more
| palatable for many beginners.
|
| Most fitness girls/celebs/models probably stop at Anavar as
| keeping feminine features is very important for them.
|
| There is even a term for it in the fitness world. "Anavar
| girls". It's widely popular.
| 15155 wrote:
| "Varbie"
| JamesBarney wrote:
| Yes and no. Different steroids have a ratio of anabolic(muscle
| building) to androgenic(masucline making) activity. i.e. Some
| will give you a big beard with little muscle, or a lot of
| muscle and a little beard. Most female body builders try to use
| steroids that have tilt more towards anabolic over androgenic
| activity. This usually isn't testosterone, this is usually
| drugs like oxandrolone, boldenone, nandrolone, or the more
| recent SARMs. Thus they can reduce the masculinization of their
| bodies while still putting on lots of muscle.
| cafemachiavelli wrote:
| They do, albeit in much lower dosages to avoid or at least
| reduce the androgenic effects (hair/genital growth, voice
| deepening) of testosterone. Usually steroids with a better
| anabolic/androgenic profile are taken in addition or instead of
| testosterone.
|
| Of course, there's also a small subset of female bodybuilders
| that lean into steroids to an extent to essentially chemically
| transition and I wonder if many of these might just be trans
| without noticing or disclosing it. As an additional caveat, in
| some places it can also be significantly easier to live as a
| woman on a lot of steroids than a trans man.
| jdthedisciple wrote:
| So whats the TLDR of this?
| watwut wrote:
| It has several topics. History of female bodybuilding, effects
| of bodybuilding on body, effects of extreme dieting on mind and
| behavior, aesthetics.
| joshspankit wrote:
| As well, I would say: the effects on social interactions
| Jtsummers wrote:
| TL;DR: It's more of a narrative than an article so it's not
| really feasible to abbreviate it. Best abbreviation, but it
| tells you nothing useful: Woman becomes interested in female
| bodybuilding, pursues it, and discusses the history and trends
| of female bodybuilding over the years intermingled with her own
| pursuit.
| cccc4all wrote:
| Many women choose to do Figure and Bikini competitions over
| physique.
|
| Lots of women use the competitions as focal point to work on
| their bodies, fitness and get results.
|
| I know several women that are generally out of shape frumpy
| looking, but spent time to get into shape for figure completions.
| They look amazing with model perfect bodies for competition.
| Then, right after competition, they celebrate by binge eating
| junk food for days and get fat. Then, the cycle starts over
| again.
| neonate wrote:
| The article is mostly about the Bikini category.
| watwut wrote:
| The article goes to great lengths to explain that. Tldr;
| competition look is not sustainable and also is not healthy. So
| they time it for competition.
|
| Like with any other sport, peak performance is timed for
| competition and the rest is time for after.
| cccc4all wrote:
| The competition look is wringing out that last 10%. Women can
| maintain the 90% look indefinitely with basic maintenance
| diet and exercise. The basic Instagram model plan.
|
| The extremes is what's interesting, that they only go through
| the cycle if there's competition. And, it's fascinating to
| see in person how their bodies can balloon up so fast.
| alacombe wrote:
| > Then, right after competition, they celebrate by binge eating
| junk food for days and get fat
|
| So do male bodybuilder/fitness competitors. What's your point ?
| actuator wrote:
| Except for winning competitions, is there any natural advantage
| of bodybuilding for both men and women?
|
| For both, for advantage in most sports and attractiveness the
| typical calisthenics physique, sort of gymnast/football(soccer)
| one seems like the ideal one to me, yet a lot of people seem to
| be obsessed with getting overly buff.
| jcfrei wrote:
| Assuming you mean natural body building (without hormones etc):
| More muscles means better circulation, so you are less likely
| to feel cold. More muscles also increase the basal metabolic
| rate so you are less likely to get overweight.
| Blikkentrekker wrote:
| Leaving all the ridiculous gender politics aside, body building
| is very comparable to those so-called " _pro-ana_ " models in
| how unhealthy it is, and I believe it should be treated the
| same, which is, of course: allow a man to do what he wants.
|
| However, it strikes me as a particular dual standard that some
| jurisdictions have tackled models whose body fat percentage is
| dangerously low, but who do not have steroid-built, unhealthily
| large muscles with it that their body fat can't healthily
| support, but seem to be completely fine with adding said
| unhealthy muscles, to the former.
|
| It comes as no surprise to me that such jurisdictions elect to
| primarily use the very unreliable and pseudoscientific _body
| mass index_ in _lieu_ of the more reliable _body fat
| percentage_ as an indicator of "underweight", for had they
| elected to use the latter: it would accurately show that most
| body builders are unhealthy low in fat, and would be struck
| down under the same rules.
|
| But of course, that is not what they desire, for that falls
| under what they consider to be their conventional ideal of
| beauty, and "health concerns" have always been one of the first
| thing the authoritarian reaches for, to enforce his own will
| and social control over others.
|
| _We ban drugs, for they are unhealthy! but alcohol? well I don
| 't know about that... they are socially acceptable, after all._
| nsajko wrote:
| > some jurisdictions have tackled models whose body fat
| percentage is dangerously low [...]
|
| What are you talking about here?
|
| > unhealthily large muscles
|
| Taking steroids and other activities related to bodybuilding
| and sports more generally can sure take their toll, but I'm
| pretty sure nobody has problems because of overly large
| muscles.
|
| > most body builders are unhealthy low in fat
|
| Source?
|
| > But of course, that is not what they desire, for that falls
| under what they consider to be their conventional ideal of
| beauty [...]
|
| Aren't you contradicting your point now? Or maybe I
| misunderstood what your point is?
| ardit33 wrote:
| By bodybuilding, you probably mean steroid-fueled muscle
| building.
|
| Most natural body-building will never reach that level. On the
| other way, there is plenty of good health reasons to train with
| weights, and build a good/solid muscle mass. It also improves a
| lot of other aspects in your life (social).
|
| So, weight-training, bodybuilding - lite is great. Steroid
| ladden/extreme body building one is probably not healthy.
| Blikkentrekker wrote:
| The issue is not building muscles, in almost any body
| building competition, what comes with it is lowering body fat
| to unhealthy levels.
|
| Know well that something as simple as visible abdominal
| muscles already requires a body fat percentage that is lower
| than what is generally considered healthy.[0]
|
| One's musculature should not be "defined" for optimal health,
| -- that requires dropping below healthy fat levels.
|
| Professional body builders go far beyond that, of course.
|
| [0]: https://www.fatherly.com/health-science/how-to-get-six-
| pack-...
| kofejnik wrote:
| > Steroid ladden/extreme body building one is probably not
| healthy.
|
| Steroids are not necessarily always bad, tho taking your body
| to the extremes of competitive bodybuilding probably is.
| belly_joe wrote:
| I agree with this broadly.
|
| I find it interesting that most of my friends/social set
| will (rightly) dismiss "high school health class"
| fearmongering over drugs, but when that drug is anabolic
| steroids suddenly every warning is true.
|
| It seems reasonable to me that the same skepticism applied
| to claims about any drug's danger - claims which frankly
| derive from government sources interested primarily in
| social engineering - should also be applied to steroids.
| pengaru wrote:
| I don't think so. My understanding is that being overweight
| always makes some health problems more likely, especially long-
| term. Even if it's muscle. And that's not even considering the
| effects of taking excessive growth hormones / steroids etc
| common to body building.
|
| Being fit is something else altogether, and produces better
| health outcomes AIUI.
| leshow wrote:
| Depends what you mean. Genetics plays a big role in competitive
| bodybuilding, but it plays a big role in any sport. Some people
| are genetically predisposed to put muscle on easier, some
| people genetically can be leaner, all of these things can help.
| At the upper levels of the sport you will see people that work
| very hard, have good genetics, and do lots of steroids.
| orasis wrote:
| Every display sport has a consensus aesthetic that is being
| optimized for.
|
| Don't expect to be judged well if you're showing parkour steez at
| a gymnastics competition.
|
| It doesn't mean the sport is wrong, it just maybe means you
| should pioneer an alternative sport or category to suit your
| target aesthetic.
| ip26 wrote:
| There's a line somewhere where the sport does become wrong IMO.
| For a different example, dog shows have selected for
| objectively unhealthy genes (see sloped back & hip dysplasia).
|
| It would be neat to see some sort of blend of function and form
| scoring. Look ripped, but put those muscles to work as well.
| Bodybuilding & weightlifting meets gymnastics. The need to
| perform athletically puts on some guardrails- less starving &
| dehydrating yourself, for example.
| simonbarker87 wrote:
| BB is more an art than a sport, Steve Cook articulates this
| idea very well and is partly why he has moved more toward
| CrossFit and other activities.
|
| BB is primarily a competition with yourself for months and
| months with an expression of that work at the end that you hope
| is arbitrarily considered better than everyone else's on stage
| by the judges (some of who may be trainers of other competitors
| on stage so good luck overcoming that)
| redis_mlc wrote:
| > BB is more an art than a sport
|
| Well, the Mr. Olympias were some of the strongest men in
| history.
|
| Ronnie Coleman was doing leg press reps in the 2,300 pound
| range, and he admitted after retirement wishing that he had
| gone heavier. His dumbbell presses over 200 pounds at 10+
| reps per set is incredible. He had safety spotters in case
| the equipment broke bolts, not because he failed lifts.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSMaI63H9hc
|
| The only person on the Terminator movies sets who could lift
| the gatling gun was Arnold.
| n4r9 wrote:
| Coleman is a massive outlier in this regard. He also worked
| himself to such an extreme that he now has severe physical
| issues.
| simonbarker87 wrote:
| The strength of a body builder as a result of their
| training doesn't disprove my point, that is just another
| side effect of their training - they become very strong.
| However world recording holding strength levels are not
| required to win body building competitions - the look of
| your figure as subjectively judged by other people is what
| wins BB comps.
|
| If Coleman or Arny competed in powerlifting then they would
| do very well, but then they would be participating in a
| different domain, one that is undoubtedly a sport.
| tyingq wrote:
| _" The only person on the Terminator movies sets who could
| lift the gatling gun was Arnold."_
|
| The mini gun was an M134. Those weigh between 41 and 85
| lbs, depending on the model variant.
|
| So, yeah, it was heavy, but not crazy heavy.
| ashtonkem wrote:
| The M134 weighs 85lbs _without ammunition_ , and the
| actor has to hold it out in front of them in an awkward
| position. 85lbs isn't a lot to lift or carry close to
| your chest, but it's a lot to hold out in front of you.
| Add in the need to carry/consume a prodigious amount of
| ammunition plus the recoil generated by the blanks, and
| it's a lot to deal with.
| tyingq wrote:
| It's fairly obvious the movie scene has the M134 in a
| sling, so that he's not holding the whole thing up with
| his hands. When he starts walking, he only has one hand
| on it, near the rear of the gun.
|
| Not disputing it's heavy and awkward. It's just not, to
| me, something you would cite as "only a really strong
| person could do it". You can find videos of pretty normal
| looking people firing it while it's held by a sling and
| their hands.
| hirundo wrote:
| There is another response to this comment that is marked as
| dead within one minute of posting, and I'm trying to
| understand why. Here is the entire comment: >
| BB is more an art than a sport
|
| Well, the Mr. Olympias were some of the strongest men in
| history. Ronnie Coleman was doing leg press
| reps in the 2,300 pound range, and he admitted after
| retirement wishing that he had gone heavier. His dumbbell
| presses over 200 pounds at 10+ reps per set is incredible. He
| had safety spotters in case the equipment broke bolts, not
| because he failed lifts.
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSMaI63H9hc The
| only person on the Terminator movies sets who could lift the
| gatling gun was Arnold.
|
| How does a comment like this get killed within a minute? It's
| not the only such example I've seen today. The comment isn't
| particularly brilliant, but it is somewhat relevant and not
| at all nasty.
|
| Is someone with multiple accounts running a kill-the-comment
| script, or is there an automated HN rule that could be doing
| this? Or is it just that five random viewers had a beef with
| it within a minute and I'm overthinking it?
| [deleted]
| Blikkentrekker wrote:
| To mark a comment as dead, only one user needs to flag it,
| I believe.
|
| All it takes is one user to disagree enough. I've had
| upvoted comments flagged because there was one user who
| disagreed enough with it and it was about controversial
| issues.
| simonbarker87 wrote:
| That comment is back and I have responded to it, it's a
| valid point but doesn't disprove BB is an art
| detaro wrote:
| one look at the users comment history tells you they are
| probably perma-banned and occasionally get vouched by users
| - which you could have done instead of reposting the
| comment.
| hirundo wrote:
| I did vouch, and I've been doing that a lot. But I look
| back after vouching and it's never resurrected.
| [deleted]
| bluecalm wrote:
| Well, in case of bodybuilding you need very hefty dose of
| hormones to even start looking like low level competitors. The
| bodybuilding physique isn't good for any particular activity.
| It's neither useful nor healthy. It's all organized so you need
| to grow yourself like cattle (bodybuilders even take steroids
| designed for making cattle killed for meat muscular). This is
| already terrible enough for men but for women it's way worse as
| their bodies are even less equipped to cope with huge
| artificial levels of male sex hormones and their derivatives.
|
| I think it is a terrible sport. It's not only terrible for the
| competitors but also for the culture as a whole as normalizing
| steroid physique hurts normal people. It's not only
| bodybuilding by the way. Fitness magazines and Hollywood actors
| take most of the blame to be sure.
| Bakary wrote:
| >I think it is a terrible sport. It's not only terrible for
| the competitors but also for the culture as a whole as
| normalizing steroid physique hurts normal people. It's not
| only bodybuilding by the way. Fitness magazines and Hollywood
| actors take most of the blame to be sure.
|
| The world is growing fatter by the year so it does not seem
| as though people are too stressed about those conceptions of
| the body being thrown around. If anything, the normalization
| of obesity is a far more pressing threat. Just looking at
| recent stats is awe-inducing, and not in a good way.[0]
|
| [0]https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/obesity-
| and...
| [deleted]
| xirbeosbwo1234 wrote:
| >The world is growing fatter by the year so it does not
| seem as though people are too stressed about those
| conceptions of the body being thrown around.
|
| You are assuming that seeing an impressive physique would
| inspire people to attain it. That doesn't follow. Stress,
| depression, and low-self esteem can encourage overeating or
| a sedentary lifestyle. If someone believes they cannot
| compete with others, they may give up entirely.
| Jtsummers wrote:
| I wonder if the issue is cultural. We've, mostly, come to
| understand the impact of the common media representation
| of (often) hyper thin "perfect" women on women and girls
| in general, which is a lot of the reason for pushback
| into various (often ad) campaigns to present more typical
| female forms. But, like many things, there's a lag in the
| appreciation that men can experience the same thing and
| have similar reactions. Perhaps because it occurs in
| smaller numbers (not sure), or just a different attitude
| towards how men should be. Admitting that men have
| similar body image issues and due to similar causes as
| women is harder for people to consider, let alone accept.
| WalterBright wrote:
| Just look at the evolution of male movie stars. A
| handsome face and slim figure used to be all that was
| required (Clark Gable, Paul Newman, Peter O'Toole). Today
| the men have to be jacked (Brad Pitt, Tom Cruise, George
| Clooney).
|
| You can bet that to be a male star in Hollywood requires
| a personal trainer and a lot of work.
| Jtsummers wrote:
| While the obesity epidemic is certainly the larger societal
| problem, we can try and develop a better representation of
| what's actually healthy. There's a happy medium between
| single digit body fat percentage (what most bodybuilders
| are aiming for in competition, and the image people have of
| them not recognizing it's their competition form not their
| year-round form) and 25% body fat (lower limit of obese for
| men, apparently).
| Bakary wrote:
| It's not even just a larger societal problem, but
| something on altogether different scales of magnitude
| (pun not intended). People suffering from health issues
| due to bodybuilding are a rounding error of a rounding
| error in comparison. Getting anywhere close to that is an
| arduous task that will put off all but the most
| dedicated, so the problem solves itself.
|
| I'm all for a more informed population on health matters,
| but I don't see the point of going after the
| practitioners of a specific hobby on account of it
| potentially hurting other people's feelings, as implied
| in the post I was originally replying to. Reminds me a
| bit of the mindset criticized in Harrison Bergeron.
| fpgaminer wrote:
| I think the logic usually goes that people get fat because
| they know they'll never look like what they see in the
| media. And so the argument is that if we bring those
| depictions more towards the attainable, then more people
| will feel like they can get there and not just give up
| altogether.
| rubyn00bie wrote:
| Truly.
|
| I do not think most people are aware of prolific steroid
| usage is... It mostly boils down to people pumping themselves
| full of steroids up until a week or so before the competition
| so they test clean. With almost zero body fat, most drugs are
| metabolized and removed from the body really quickly.
|
| It was pretty depressing to realize that body-building is
| totally gamed and drug based. Not because I was ever into it,
| I think it's corny, it's just a real disservice to the ideal
| of healthy living.
| jonnyone wrote:
| >It mostly boils down to people pumping themselves full of
| steroids up until a week or so before the competition so
| they test clean.
|
| The most common "base" of a steroid cycle is testosterone.
| If you stopped injecting testosterone a week before a
| competition, you would still show unusually high levels of
| testosterone in your blood (even if you were using a
| shorter ester). But as others have pointed out, they don't
| test for steroids in most BB competitions.
|
| My personal suspicion is that pro BBers who use steroids
| but deny it do so to protect product endorsements they
| have.
| driverdan wrote:
| > It mostly boils down to people pumping themselves full of
| steroids up until a week or so before the competition so
| they test clean.
|
| This is wrong. None of the pro competitions do drug testing
| and no one stops using a week out. If they did test there
| wouldn't be any competitors.
| paulpauper wrote:
| there would be no bodybuilding without steroids, at least
| not in the way it is commonly understood. The physical
| transformation the body undergoes by taking anabolic
| steroids at high doses is like night and day. Without
| steroids, all the physiques would appear flat or emaciated,
| without the 'wow' factor.
| watwut wrote:
| After reading the whole article, there is nothing healthy
| about any of that. Even absent drugs, the whole thing is
| unhealthy.
| CydeWeys wrote:
| I think people are quite aware of how prolific steroid
| usage in bodybuilding is. It's the movie actor physiques
| that people aren't as aware of.
| bluecalm wrote:
| Movie actors, fitness/underwear models, basically
| everyone on the cover of Men's Health or on a movie
| poster. Hell, very significant % of not so impressingly
| looking guys in your local gym are on steroids. Just
| Google for stats on steroid usage, estimate how many
| people go to a gym and think what it means. The mystery
| of Hollywood diet and training to lose 10kg of fat and to
| put 5kg of muscle in 60 days starts to make sense as
| well.
|
| In many areas of the world it's completely risk-free as
| well as you won't get busted for possession of
| Testosterone or even stuff like Trenbolone.
| ameister14 wrote:
| Also age - it's actually possible to lose 10kg of fat and
| gain 5kg of muscle in 60 days without any testosterone or
| whatever boosters when you're 22. I have a very, very
| hard time believing you can do this at age 48-50, like
| Josh Brolin did to play Thanos.
| WalterBright wrote:
| When I was 20 and started lifting regularly, I put on a
| lot of muscle very fast. But I plateaued in about 6
| months and was never able to go past that.
|
| I didn't do any steriods, because a friend of mine went
| from "pillsbury doughboy" (his assessment) to very jacked
| in about 9 months. He used steroids, and was shocked to
| find he'd lost a couple inches in height. The doc told
| him it was the steroids, and even worse, he'd still lose
| the usual height when he aged (we all shrink as we age).
|
| He was pretty bummed about it, but still became very
| popular with the ladies and was happy about that.
| User23 wrote:
| Trenbolone is legal to possess in the USA. It's only
| illegal when you start putting it in yourself instead of
| cattle.
| sterlind wrote:
| Trenbolone is Schedule III. It's illegal to possess
| unless you have a prescription, you can't legally order
| some without a vet prescribing it for your cow.
| User23 wrote:
| The actual drug trenbolone is scheduled, but a number of
| trenbolone preparations are (or at least were) exempted
| from the CSA because of their agricultural importance[1].
| As I said, it instantly becomes a CSA violation the
| second a nonveterinary use occurs, but simple possession
| of unaltered Finaplix-H, for example, is or at least was
| just fine.
|
| [1] https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-1997-10-03/htm
| l/97-25...
| gamblor956 wrote:
| Modern actors aren't as willing to sacrifice their health
| for muscle as their historical counterparts, especially
| because the lean look is preferred over the muscle-bound
| appearance of yesteryear. Thus, (with rare exceptions,
| like Christian Bale between _The Machinist_ and _Batman
| Begins_ ), what you see on screen today is hard-earned
| through hours a day in the gym, a _very regimented_ diet,
| and hydration timing.
|
| Generally, to get to the level of single-digits body fat
| you see on screen, you're looking at 3-6 months of clean
| eating (or more, depending on the actor's physique when
| they land the role), meaning among other things, no
| alcohol, no sweets, and lots of eggs or chicken meals.
| Someone being paid a few million dollars can afford to
| pay a nutritionist to custom-design a diet to meet
| specific appearance goals, a and they have a huge
| incentive to stick with that diet. For example, Chris
| Pratt had to give up beer, pizza, and all dietary
| pleasures for six months to go from being the fat guy on
| _Parks and Rec_ to the main hero of _Guardians of the
| Galaxy._
|
| On top of the diet, the actor is spending hours on near-
| daily exercise for _several months_. Chris Hemsworth
| eschews cardio for pure muscle-building, but Paul Rudd
| and Kumail Nujani each spent _a year_ preparing for their
| Marvel roles, using a blend of cardio and full-body
| workouts (as, in contrast to Thor, Ant Man and Kingo have
| lean physiques but neither actor was particularly
| athletic when cast), while Pratt spent nearly 6 hours a
| day, 6 days a week, for over 6 months on cardio
| activities to cut weight for the first _Guardians_ movie
| (as he already had the muscle for the character
| underneath his excess bulk and just needed to reveal
| them).
|
| But the real trick to the "cut" look on screen is
| dehydration; actors don't drink for several hours before
| shirtless scenes, which makes them appear thinner and
| more defined. (In several interviews, Kumail Nujani talks
| about nearly passing out after several filming several
| shirtless scenes for _The Eternals,_ which required him
| to limit water consumption for nearly 12 hours before
| shooting.) This is something you can actually try
| yourself at home: take a before pic, spend a few hours on
| a long cardio activity like running or biking, and then
| take an after pic before you rehydrate. You will _appear_
| thinner and your muscles (if they were visible
| beforehand) will appear more well-defined, even though
| they aren 't any bigger.
| noarchy wrote:
| >while Pratt spent nearly 6 hours a day, 6 days a week,
| for over 6 months on cardio activities to cut weight for
| the first Guardians movie (as he already had the muscle
| for the character underneath his excess bulk and just
| needed to reveal them).
|
| The problem is that they tell these stories, and people
| believe it. If he had really done six hours of cardio per
| day he'd likely disappear and have no muscle.
|
| Diet and exercise is, make no mistake, a huge part of it
| - all of that has to be on point. The reality very much
| involves manipulating hormones, and that means steroids,
| growth hormone, etc.
| Jtsummers wrote:
| Not all cardio activities exclude strength components
| that would discourage/diminish muscle maintenance and
| development. Rowing and swimming, for example, or lower
| weight/higher rep strength routines that can maintain a
| faster tempo leading toward a hybrid strength/cardio
| workout.
| jonnyone wrote:
| >Modern actors aren't as willing to sacrifice their
| health for muscle as their historical counterparts,
| especially because the lean look is preferred over the
| muscle-bound appearance of yesteryear
|
| While it's true that the Schwarzenegger look isn't in
| vogue, it's a bit of a myth to think that steroid usage
| would lead to that look in any short amount of time.
|
| There are many steroid "stacks" (meaning some kind of
| testosterone ester with other steroids on top) that are
| designed for the lean, dry look that many movie stars
| have reached in recent years. I don't doubt that some
| stars work for it naturally, but I do believe many have
| used them in the short term.
|
| I also don't think it's incredibly risky to your health
| in the short term, depending of course on the steroid.
| bluecalm wrote:
| Just look at athletes before widespread steroid use. They
| have spent way more time training than actors and haven't
| looked like that even in sports that require dehydration
| like boxing.
|
| That's exactly the problem with lying about steroids. It
| took a while for Arnold and his successors to admit that
| they were on 1000mg of test per week (plus other stuff of
| course; normal production of even high test men is below
| 100mg). Now people believe that yeah that bodybuilders
| are obviously juiced but physiques of elite athletes like
| soccer players or Hollywood actors are natural because
| they are smaller.
|
| Remember, significant % of guys in your local gym are on
| juice. There are no doping controls in Hollywood.
| Testosterone won't kill you, it may even make your life
| better if you use it wisely. Would you take it if million
| dollars and fame were on the line? We know they take it
| because we know quite well how juiced up physiques look.
|
| Besides, if someone who is not a professional athlete did
| 6 hours of serious training per day their body would give
| up sooner rather than later unless the recovery was
| "enhanced".
|
| I don't condemn steroid use btw. I oppose widespread
| lying about it by the users and the media.
| WalterBright wrote:
| A friend of mine blew out his knee in a skiing accident.
| After his operation, he needed rehab, and went to the
| best he could find. It was where pro football players
| went for rehab. He said he couldn't believe how hard they
| worked out, so he asked one.
|
| The guy laughed, and said something like: "If I don't get
| back in shape, I lose several million dollars and my
| career." They're highly motivated, to say the least.
| simonbarker87 wrote:
| Pretty much every federation is untested, steroid use isn't
| a dark secret in BB (like it is in strongman) it's the way
| to compete.
| Bakary wrote:
| If everyone is gaming the system, then nobody is.
| bluecalm wrote:
| They are gaming the public selling the dream and
| positioning themselves as fitness authorities, coaches,
| idols etc.
| Bakary wrote:
| Everyone's trying to game the public, from clerics to
| tech workers to politicians. Bodybuilders seem like a
| relatively insignificant part of that permanent and
| massive sale.
|
| I can understand the frustration, but I don't think it's
| a good idea to take a paternalistic approach in this
| case.
| da_big_ghey wrote:
| Yep, this is known as a positional arms race. For other
| examples, see how everyone now goes to college: when 25%
| of applicants do it, it's a competitive advantage for
| them, so everyone else moves towards doing it.
| https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/23501/1/DP-54.pdf
| brianwawok wrote:
| Sure. The drawback of too many people going to college is
| more knowledge in the world. What's the drawback of
| people taking roids for years on end?
| CydeWeys wrote:
| I will say that strongman is interesting. It eliminates the
| cutting weight aspect of bodybuilding at least, though
| admittedly retains the steroid abuse aspect. I think it
| fundamentally answers an interesting question though in a way
| that bodybuilding maybe doesn't, namely: What is the absolute
| limit of strength that the human body is capable of?
| jaegerpicker wrote:
| While I understand that A LOT of strongman competitors are
| using steroids, it is entirely possible to compete without
| them. I know this because I've done it. Not at the
| international level but at a state level and placed very
| well. I've never taken a PED in my life. I was also a
| successful power lifter without PED's (550lbs bench press,
| 680lbs deadlift, and 725lbs squat at my peak). Those who
| don't compete don't understand what the human body can be
| capable of. Don't get me wrong I'm blessed with a lot of
| natural ability but everyone can be far stronger than they
| think without the aid of PED's.
| simonbarker87 wrote:
| I think mobility and staying injury free are probably
| more important at the level you were at than PEDs and an
| aspect that many people underestimate. My squat topped
| out at 300 simply because of old injuries and mobility
| limitations caused by them.
|
| Clearly strongmen on the international stage are using
| though.
| eredengrin wrote:
| Staying healthy and injury free is obviously important,
| but that's important at every single level. Also to be
| clear, a drug free 725 lb squat is _very_ impressive,
| that 's not something most people would be able to
| achieve even if they managed to stay injury free.
| matwood wrote:
| Those are great numbers. If you don't mind me asking,
| what did you weigh when doing those?
|
| I agree with you, that people can get far stronger than
| they realize. I'm not genetically gifted, started quite
| skinny, and still got a 325 bp, 405 squat and 525 DL at
| 195 back when I was younger. All I ever took was creatine
| and whey. I'm fairly tall, which seemed to help the lever
| action with my DL, but always caused my squat to lag.
| z3t4 wrote:
| The most common reason for using is thinking that
| _everyone_ else is using.
| steele wrote:
| I think I understand your perspective. Alternatively, how
| about truly normalizing steroid physiques out in the open,
| instead of as an open secret. That might make clear the
| benefits, risks, and costs. The taboo & black market sourcing
| of synthetic hormones/PEDs hurt normal people in ways that
| would happen without bodybuilding, fitness magazines, &
| Hollywood.
| alwmder wrote:
| I'm confused as to who your comment is meant to address - the
| author describes how she pursued that consensus aesthetic,
| under guidance from various trainers that adhere to it. Her
| placement in competition isn't the point or the essay - the
| focus is on introspection about the thoughts that lead her to
| bodybuilding, the history of the sport that lead to the
| particular "consensus aesthetic" that she crossed paths with,
| and reflections on the toll that adherence takes on body and
| mind.
|
| I found the tone remained neutral to admiring despite laying
| bare its rather gruesome flaws and crass backers, so if it
| reads as an indictment, I think it says more about the
| realities of the sport than the author's priorities.
| Alex3917 wrote:
| > Every display sport has a consensus aesthetic that is being
| optimized for.
|
| If it's not measured in meters or seconds, it's not a real
| sport.
| jaegerpicker wrote:
| So Wrestling, Judo, BJJ, MMA, Boxing aren't real sports? Golf
| isn't a sport? Baseball, Basketball, Football, Volleyball,
| and Soccer are all won on points not seconds/meters. Power
| lifting? I can really go on all day. You might not care for
| the sport but that doesn't make it any less valid as a sport.
| [deleted]
| Alex3917 wrote:
| Those are all games. Sports are things like running,
| cycling, rowing, cross country skiing, ski jumping, shot
| put, etc.
| ameister14 wrote:
| what about shooting?
| rjsw wrote:
| It, along with hunting and fishing are the canonical list
| of sports, everything else is a game.
| jaegerpicker wrote:
| Combat SPORTS (MMA, Wrestling, BJJ, Judo, Sambo etc...)
| aren't games. You don't play Wrestling for example. That
| is an exceedingly narrow definition of sport and one that
| I think does a large disservice to Athletes.
| Jtsummers wrote:
| The distinction between sports and games is less well-
| defined than you seem to believe it is. Some sports trend
| towards a more pure physical competition form (running,
| cycling), others towards a game-like competition (soccer,
| football). It's not all raw physical ability, which
| generally shows up in purer athletic competitions like
| track and field, but also skill (wrestling being a
| combination of athleticism and skill).
| MegaDeKay wrote:
| You're right of course. Unfortunately sports where the
| opinion of a judge figures strongly, like figure skating,
| suffer from inconsistent judging. You see this even in
| power lifting when a high squat gets white lighted. Power
| lifting could really benefit from some rule tweaks as well:
| being super flexible lets you crank the hell out of your
| back arch and minimize range of motion to comically small
| amounts at times [0].
|
| [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7ADqvqgnsI
| gennarro wrote:
| Slightly off topic but I find that green website frame to be
| incredibly distracting. Aren't mobile phone screens small enough
| with adding extra padding around the inside? And the highlighting
| that unused space is a just bizarre to me.
| Vaslo wrote:
| That and giant subscribe here that takes up half the phone
| screen.
| abrowne wrote:
| The design of _The Believer_ physical magazine is not exactly
| purely functional either.
| erwinh wrote:
| The default wordpress theme from a couple of years had a
| similar frame like that as well but then in black if I remember
| correctly...
| dang wrote:
| " _Please don 't complain about website formatting, back-button
| breakage, and similar annoyances. They're too common to be
| interesting. Exception: when the author is present. Then
| friendly feedback might be helpful._"
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| jgtrosh wrote:
| Quite true; and also the title is so big it's cut like this on
| my screen:
|
| THE FEMININ E PHYSIQU E
|
| But then I switched to Firefox's focus mode and everything was
| better again.
| rmah wrote:
| I usually don't read articles like this, but it was so well
| written that I was sort of sucked into it.
|
| What was most interesting to me was not the various controversies
| about body aesthetics or even health consequences. What stood out
| to me was the author's description in the early parts of the
| article of how much she seemed to crave the approval of
| strangers, especially men. It was thought provoking and I'm still
| processing it. I find this way of thinking completely foreign. I
| know intellectually that many people need external affirmation...
| but from total strangers whom you barely interact with? I can't
| help but feel a bit sad that so many go through their lives this
| way.
| ip26 wrote:
| Total strangers are the most honest signal of whether you are
| generally attractive.
| DoreenMichele wrote:
| I was a ridiculously cute little girl and I'm pretty damn sure
| a lot of my social issues as a young adult were rooted in
| getting essentially trained to play to the crowd as a toddler.
| At that age, it's a form of brainwashing and it's amazingly
| hard to root out after you become an adult and are puzzled that
| your antics no longer get you adoration. (PSA: Please don't do
| this to your own children. It's an awful thing to experience.)
|
| My oldest son was a ridiculously cute toddler but I never
| taught him that he was expected to play to the crowd. So when
| he got to be school age and found that too much social
| attention was actively problematic, he was able to choose to
| intentionally behave differently.
|
| This is likely to some degree a gender difference. Girls seem
| to get a lot more social pressure generally to "be cute" and to
| engage socially in a performative manner.
| roflc0ptic wrote:
| Since the pandemic started, my interactions with strangers of
| the opposite sex have been quite curtailed. Last week a vague
| acquaintance in my condo complex, 35 years my senior, stopped
| me and spent a good 30 seconds telling me how blue my eyes
| looked, and musing on how my outfit made them stand out
| especially. On the one hand, this is weirdly objectifying, and
| I kind of wish she had the slightest interest in who I am as a
| person - she's one of those archetypal condo neighbors who
| mostly just goes around complaining about people. But on the
| other hand, I had the distinct thought, "Hot dang, Daniel.
| You've still got it." This thought was steeped in irony, but at
| its kernel, there's a stark emotional reality there. I'm even
| tolerably well adjusted.
|
| Positive attention from strangers is a singularly terrible
| thing to hinge your wellbeing on, but man. It sure feels nice.
|
| I would comment that many men seem use sex with women as a form
| of self esteem boosting. Like, if I fuck enough women, the
| emotional void inside of me will finally fill and I'll know I'm
| worthy. Women do the attention seeking stuff more overtly, and
| they're encouraged and allowed to display themselves as
| objects. men have a pretty similar set of emotional drives,
| just have different avenues for acting them out.
| joshspankit wrote:
| This is much more common than you would imagine. And on both
| sides of the typical gender roles. (I'm speaking about western
| society here as it's what I know, and where I feel like a lot
| of that need comes from.)
| Retric wrote:
| You don't need that validation, but it's still very noticeable.
| The difference between being slightly overweight and ripped is
| shocking. The world is suddenly a different place where you
| show up at a large party and several hot women hit on you etc.
|
| Granted you need to be otherwise attractive, but it's not just
| women men also treat you more positively. Women see a wider
| range of responses, yet it's still generally a very positive
| experience.
| Blikkentrekker wrote:
| > _What was most interesting to me was not the various
| controversies about body aesthetics or even health
| consequences. What stood out to me was the author 's
| description in the early parts of the article of how much she
| seemed to crave the approval of strangers, especially men._
|
| We very much stand on opposite ends.
|
| Fools exist, and many fools try to phrase their foolishness in
| terms of gender so to arouse the impression that they have an
| excuse.
|
| Not a day goes by that I see a man attempt to excuse his
| foolishness by claiming it stems from his gender, his
| ethnicity, his religion, or anything else.
|
| Needlessly craving the approval of others has nothing to do
| with gender, -- some do so, and some do not.
|
| > _I can 't help but feel a bit sad that so many go through
| their lives this way._
|
| Foolish behavior exists everywhere in many forms. Some crave
| the approval of others to deluded paranoia of rejection; others
| wish to control their fellow man for no purpose but control
| itself; yet others are disproportionally afraid of very
| specific, uncommon things, yet ignore far more common dangers.
| -- it is old news.
| nostromo wrote:
| ... really?
|
| You've never wanted to be attractive to whatever gender you're
| attracted to? I find it surprising that this can be "totally
| foreign" to any human that's not asexual.
|
| Being the most attractive version of yourself that you can be
| isn't just about sex, either. It really does open doors
| socially and economically. Right or wrong, people enjoy the
| company of people who put thought and effort into their
| appearance. And if for no other reason, your partner certainly
| appreciates it!
| Herodotus38 wrote:
| This magazine is a great one for getting me to read long
| articles about things I didn't think would be interesting. It
| seems like they attract writers that are more honest and human
| about their motivations than you see in other places.
| autarch wrote:
| On a related topic, I recently watched an excellent documentary
| on disordered eating among rock climbers, especially professional
| climbers - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thtDQJGrO5s
| Phenomenit wrote:
| I'm mostly disappointed that there wasn't a single picture in the
| whole article.
| joshspankit wrote:
| Here you go: https://twitter.com/browne_petra/photo
| watwut wrote:
| That does not give much idea of what her bikiny look was
| like. I was curious about that too, it is very focus of
| article, but it is described be words only and hard to
| imagine.
| danbolt wrote:
| I feel like what exactly she looked like wasn't the
| takeaway from the discussion for me, to be honest.
| joshspankit wrote:
| Same here
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