[HN Gopher] Managing your boss: adjusting to narcissists, 'ghost...
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Managing your boss: adjusting to narcissists, 'ghosts,' gaslighters
Author : apress
Score : 91 points
Date : 2021-02-05 18:51 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.reuters.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.reuters.com)
| [deleted]
| teddyh wrote:
| I have two relevant, maybe slightly more helpful, links:
|
| _Getting Things Done When You're Only a Grunt_
|
| https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2001/12/25/getting-things-don...
|
| _The Manager FAQ_
|
| https://www.seebs.net/faqs/manager.html
| yowlingcat wrote:
| If I can add a note on why I think these are so useful and how
| it pertains back to the subject article: they let you figure
| out whether you've used the tools in your power to try and work
| with said manager. If you use these tools and exhaust them, it
| tends to make it a lot easier to figure out for those
| borderline cases whether poor management is situational or
| intrinsic to the manager.
|
| You can work with the former. With the latter, the most ROI
| positive option is usually to leave (as many have been chiming
| in throughout the thread)
| steveBK123 wrote:
| On Joel's list I've done 1,4,5,6 myself
|
| This one is hardest I think- Strategy 4 Neutralize The Bozos
|
| We had a guy that would work nights and weekends on other
| people's assigned tickets committing non-running half assed
| code to trunk. Note this was in lieu of doing any work actually
| assigned to him, coming into the office, attending meetings, or
| participating in L3 rotation. This was sometimes in
| coordination with the boss in which Bob underbid other devs by
| 1 or more orders of magnitude (They said 1 week? I can do it in
| an afternoon!)
|
| We would get into office in morning and be told by the boss -
| well Bob already did that ticket last night, just help him get
| it working.. and spend a month of effort getting his
| "afternoon" hack implementation to semi-work. Sometimes he'd
| even email people code to commit on his behalf.
|
| This went on for a few years.
|
| Eventually we did two things: 1- The rest of the team
| transitioned to a release branch and let him keep committing
| his non-working fixes to trunk as the new major version
| release. We had an agreement that when he got it all working we
| would merge back and release to PROD. He felt like the all-star
| he was because he was working on the strategic improvement
| while us peons piddled away on "feature requests" and "bug
| fixes".
|
| 6 months later he admitted he couldn't get trunk running, which
| then lead to the next step.
|
| 2- Explained to a couple hops up in management that this
| developer was actually producing negative work. It wasn't that
| his work was subpar, it was that every hour of work he did
| produced 2 or more hours of work for other people. Morale was
| shit, the project was shit, and the whole team was going to
| leave if you keep this guy around.. here's a bunch of examples
| of him producing negative work.
|
| We presented him with the ultimate juicy prize - cut cost and
| increase productivity.
|
| The whole process still took about a year to get rid of a peer.
|
| I've never seen it work on a higher up. Every place I've been
| with a bad boss I've only seen things go from bad to worse,
| just interview and leave. And when you quit, all the promises
| they make are BS too, I've never been talked into staying but
| in retrospect, every "don't leave because we will do __" would
| turned out to have been a lie.
|
| I once had a manager try to talk me out of leaving who, when I
| showed up at the new shop after 2 weeks.. arrived himself 2
| weeks later, so during this chat he had probably already quit
| himself given the extended notice period for his seniority ..
| mikestew wrote:
| Those links are immensely more helpful than the hollow shell of
| an article that was posted. _The Manager FAQ_ in particular
| does a better job of delivering on what this article promised
| (and failed to deliver on).
| rightbyte wrote:
| Is this article an add for Careerstone? Why do Reuters write
| this? There is just gossip and phrenology like personality types
| without the sculls.
| jeffbee wrote:
| The supposed editor describes themselves on LinkedIn as "I
| develop and execute editorial concepts for global digital
| sponsorships" so yes, this might be an advertisement.
|
| Thomson-Reuters contains a legitimate news organization but it
| also contains many, many other things.
| rightbyte wrote:
| Ok good find. It should be disclosed in the article.
|
| Maybe my view of Reuters is colored by that local newspapers
| cite them for the "there has been an election in Nigeria and
| the tomatoe harvest in Spain is bad this year" serious kind
| of news.
| medicineman wrote:
| I noticed this too. Was wondering how to handle one of my
| bosses ghosting me. Yet here I am, all the keywords but no
| answers.
| darth_avocado wrote:
| Yes, managing up is a thing. No, the article did not provide any
| value.
| nednar wrote:
| > Adopt a survivor mentality
|
| What does that even mean. Somehow I feel the article doesn't
| speak about the title's content at all.
| goatcode wrote:
| This read like a really shitty, saccharine, abridged, disjointed
| article. It barely touched on its title. How did this get to the
| front page?
| trulyme wrote:
| Probably because the topic is interesting and novel (at least
| to me). I agree the article is crap though.
| marcod wrote:
| Q: What if you find yourself in a truly toxic work environment?
| A: My advice is to get out if you can. Toxic situations make you
| emotionally and physically sick. It can take years to recover.
| Have a good support network in place, limit your exposure with
| that toxic boss and stay under the radar. Adopt a survivor
| mentality until you can get out.
|
| Yes, this sounds obvious, but at my last job I could have really
| used somebody telling me as much.
| hntrader wrote:
| Being biased towards quitting your job is a great heuristic.
| Even if the boss is o.k., if you have any non-trivial
| reservations at all it's generally best to quit as quickly as
| possible. Probably the same for breakups. Very few people
| regret doing that, the most common regret is staying too long
| due to inertia, loyalty or whatever. I've quit 3 jobs and each
| time I wished that I had quit earlier, and all 3 times have
| been great for my career in the long-run.
|
| If you were a good performer, you can probably just go back to
| same the job later if you change your mind as well, and if they
| don't want you back because they're being immature, then it's
| probably to your benefit not to return.
| commandlinefan wrote:
| > Very few people regret doing that
|
| Hmmm... well, I won't say that I necessarily regret it, but I
| was a bit trigger-happy in job-hopping right after college.
| It was the late 90's and programming jobs were REALLY easy to
| find, so if there was literally anything I didn't like about
| the job I had, I'd just go get another one. I ended up with
| four jobs in four years - and then when I decided to bail the
| fourth time, interviewers started noticing that I'd never
| been at one place longer than a year. I adopted a three-year
| policy after that - I'd keep a job for a minimum of three
| years before looking for another one. Even so, this actually
| came up during an interview (for a job I didn't get) just a
| few years ago even though it was 20 years in the past.
| marcod wrote:
| http://www.redstrategygroup.com/insights/2016/2/26/why-
| zappo...
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| elefanten wrote:
| This sounds obvious but it might be differentially applicable
| across cases.
|
| We have really drastically lowered the bar for what gets called
| "toxic", "dangerous", "harmful" or even "violent". This has
| happened steadily and with increasing speed over the last ~3
| generations, in my subjective observations.
|
| I think the pendulum has swung too far with emotional and (now
| increasingly) ideological/theoretical safetyism.
|
| It will be interesting to see where the middle ground is, or
| whether it just results in collapse of competence and output. I
| hope I'm wrong but over time it feels like the latter is where
| we're heading.
| [deleted]
| sbarre wrote:
| I understand where you're coming from, but I will offer this
| counterpoint:
|
| I think that's ok. I think we can find ways to interact,
| collaborate, and work, that don't tolerate behaviours we
| wouldn't find acceptable in a social setting. I think raising
| the bar for acceptable behaviour is a good thing.
|
| And while people will abuse this (both intentionally and due
| to personal struggles), It's not like people weren't abusing
| things the old way too.
|
| I would rather have people take advantage of an _intolerance_
| for toxicity than have people take advantage of a _tolerance_
| for it.
| pjc50 wrote:
| ... while continuing productivity increases across those
| years _and_ achieving more things. And increasing the
| diversity of the workforce.
| nharada wrote:
| > Yes, this sounds obvious
|
| Agreed, I think a hallmark of toxic situations is that from the
| outside it's obvious how bad they are and from the inside it's
| hard to see.
| adamredwoods wrote:
| I have had two severely toxic bosses in my lifetime, and it
| is difficult to do anything because I kept second-guessing
| myself that it was my fault. It took away my self-confidence
| for years, and led to unsuccessful interviews, which
| compounds into more self-doubt.
| quercusa wrote:
| The latter is mostly true. I can look back at events that
| revealed just how toxic things were, but there always seemed
| to be _something_ (maybe the interesting part of the job,
| maybe somebody in worse shape) that kept me from processing
| them. But once away...
|
| As one former colleague said, "Nobody who left X ever wanted
| to go back."
| harlanji wrote:
| My friend, one of the few people who gives me any advice at all
| seemed baffled that I would "make things harder for myself" by
| quitting jobs that make me feel like I'm becoming mentally ill.
| I can adopt that suvival mindset for a period, but when I am
| thinking about work problems while I'm away then it's time to
| get out--context is entry level retail jobs. It would be better
| to have something new lined up, but unemployment also granted
| my claim so there's that. Check out the term "constructive
| dismissal"... it's not understood by most people, but
| unemployment insurance knows what it is. I didn't use the term
| in my summary, just gave a brief description of the problems.
| trulyme wrote:
| For curious:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal
| watwut wrote:
| You cant change narcissist full stop. And you cant change toxic
| boss from below. I agree with these.
|
| But, I also dislike that a majority of advice on workplace and
| toxic people is basically "run away or enable it". Sometimes
| people can actually influence how much damage narcissist do and
| how far narcissist will grow in company.
|
| There is little advice on how to communicate and protect
| yourself when toxic person is peer and you have some power over
| situation. Or how to report the situation in a way that will
| make impact, how to recognize who to report to, how to
| communicate in a way that will make situation transparent for
| third parties.
| steveBK123 wrote:
| Unless you really love the job/company and/or are really
| getting paid, the cost-benefit of "fighting the fight" is not
| favorable.
|
| Even getting a peer level narcissist neutralized or managed
| out can easily take 1-2 years of consistent, coordinated
| daily effort.
|
| What else can you do with your career or personal life with
| that type of effort?
| watwut wrote:
| My issue is systemic - if this is prevalent ideology, then
| abusers are bound to be the ones in power. Because
| everybody else is just running away. And they run away only
| toward other abusers in other companies - maybe somewhat
| milder but that is all.
|
| And I think that it is not just about "fight". It is also
| about things like verifying information, not covering up
| for them unnecesary, not lie for them out of politeness,
| keeping written record, talking about problems etc.
| steveBK123 wrote:
| It strikes me as an employers problem to fix their toxic
| workplace, not lower level employees.
|
| You never know exactly who the abuser has in their corner
| within management. You never know the professional
| networks that exist if you work in a smaller niche. Once
| you've decided to go after someone toxic in management,
| you better not miss... and even if you don't, you may not
| want to make a habit of it.
| qwantim1 wrote:
| I made the mistake of continually thinking my problem was those
| who led, then realizing it was me, then losing most of my self-
| confidence.
|
| I recommend not doing what I did. If it's a bad fit, get out.
| It's damaging.
| ianai wrote:
| And I recommend self-forgiveness and humility. I gave one of
| my former, extremely highly toxic bosses the DSM test for
| psychopathy and he scored like 26 or something. He was very
| open and upfront about it and how he saw the world. Frankly,
| the average person is not mentally capable of dealing with
| that level of 'personality' without some serious side study,
| knowledge, and support. He wasn't that smart of a guy either.
| His neuro makeup just made him a natural at manipulating
| everyone.
|
| But management doesn't have to be a five star psychopath to
| be incapable of correction from below. This is one of those
| times where simply desiring to act in bad faith and the
| societal backing of management makes a direct report or
| worker unable to counter the bad faith actions in any
| meaningful way on average. I've done it, I know how to do it,
| and it takes an incredible amount of wisdom and luck to pull
| off.
| dougmwne wrote:
| If somone is a physical or emotional abuser you must get away
| from them as quickly as possible. Many abusers set themselves
| up in positions of power.
| nednar wrote:
| What about the other people around you?
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| If I can't fix the work environment for me, I can't fix it
| for them.
|
| The best I could do is to very quietly tell them "This is
| garbage. I'm looking. You maybe ought to be looking, too."
| (I guess the other thing I could do for them is to tell the
| actual truth in my exit interview.)
| lazide wrote:
| Should you be showing it's ok to stay (by example), or that
| it's ok to leave? (by example)
| nednar wrote:
| You can't show that it's okay to leave, because you won't
| be there anymore to correct the narrative told about you.
| lazide wrote:
| Sure you can - by finding something better, which is all
| anyone is concerned about from leaving anyway. The other
| parts (badmouthing you behind your back or whatever),
| have no effect on you once you're gone except to
| highlight even more why folks should leave. People are
| not ignorant of the type of bosses that do that sort of
| thing, or what it means in my experience.
|
| Worrying about the narrative some asshole is going to
| spin about your departure just puts you in their power -
| which is why they do it. The folks on the line generally
| don't care, certainly not to the extent that should let
| someone control you in a toxic environment.
| uncledave wrote:
| I worked for one of them. Completely agree. One day I decided
| I'd had enough though and just went home, changed my phone
| SIM for a PAYG one and immediately moved half way down the
| country.
|
| I was his last remaining employee.
| yholio wrote:
| Sounds like you were escaping an abusive spouse. How about
| the traditional "fuck you, I quit", and not changing your
| sim or turning your life on its head for some jerk?
| hntrader wrote:
| I think the jerk might get more satisfaction being able
| to spam the victim's phone and torture them from beyond
| the grave, compared to being ghosted completely (which is
| a tactic that should be reserved for only the truly
| heinous).
| mnw21cam wrote:
| Restraining order exist for a reason. In most countries
| they are relatively easy to obtain.
| uncledave wrote:
| It felt like it.
|
| It took me two weeks to formulate a decent "fuck you" but
| I came to the conclusion that what remains unsaid is
| sometimes more effective than what is said.
| m463 wrote:
| > but at my last job I could have really used somebody telling
| me as much.
|
| Yeah, there's a subtle problem here:
|
| - coworkers are a self-selecting population, that are likely OK
| working there.
|
| - coworkers are probably over-represented in the people you
| talk to... and LISTEN to.
|
| - people you do not work with "don't understand" (in theory)
|
| I will say one thing:
|
| Every time I've left a job... Every. Time. ... I was really
| conflicted about leaving.
|
| Then, a week or two into the new job... Every. Time. ...I
| thought, "Wow! I should have done this sooner!"
| psyc wrote:
| Most important lesson I ever learned and I share it freely,
| because I could have saved 2 years of misery had I really
| understood. People be like "well you say that but some of us
| have mortgages, families, kids, cats to feed". Well guess what.
| If you burn out, not only will you lose that income, but you
| won't be able to look for a job at best, or wind up with
| hospital bills at worst. In other words, you risk a far worse
| situation than if you had quit with no notice and nothing lined
| up. There is no possible excuse for risking catastrophic
| illness, especially when you have more job mobility and are in
| greater demand than most professions. There is no "if you can"
| as hard as that may be to accept, or as irresponsible as it may
| sound to you or look to others. It's not good but it's the
| least worst option. If the job is harming you badly enough then
| sorry but if you cannot negotiate a better situation where you
| are, you must leave for yourself and anyone who cares about
| you.
| marcod wrote:
| So true! I also lost about 2 years and my physical and mental
| health really deteriorated and 5 years later I'm still
| dealing with fallout.
|
| I was a manager under a toxic director, so I had the added
| pressure of making sure my team was all right. After most of
| them had found positions elsewhere, I finally left.
| lazide wrote:
| For future reference, having done it both ways - finding a
| good out for yourself(and putting your oxygen mask on
| first) is usually better for the people under you too, as
| it shows them what they should be doing AND gives them
| (often) a place they can reach out to and land.
| anaerobicover wrote:
| It might also help push them off the fence, as they see
| their cover from the sewage storm disappear.
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| I think what's missing from these discussions is that some
| people burn out really easy and some people aren't phased by
| the toxicity at all. Depending on the level of toxicity not
| everybody needs to cut and run.
| system16 wrote:
| Very true. I wasted nearly two years of my life at a toxic
| agency that prided itself on its culture and how the company
| was a family.
|
| I'd dread Sunday evening. The morning drive to the office was
| always filled with a sense of impending doom. The finger
| pointing during "stand up". The end of the world when a TPS
| report didn't have a cover sheet, and mandatory meeting to
| come up with yet another new process to prevent future
| disasters.
|
| Eventually I just said fuck this and gave my two weeks
| notice.
|
| I had a mortgage, was the sole earner in my family, and had
| nothing else lined up. I was scared, but so relieved to never
| have to go back there.
|
| One week later I was offered a job with a much better company
| and environment, for significantly higher salary. My only
| regret is not leaving sooner.
| vmception wrote:
| For anyone else whose life is similar, I just want to say
| that I have had jobs where I truly enjoyed going to work. I
| only had the "sunday scaries" just to participate in the
| meme of hating work. But I was really anticipating picking
| up where I left off at work.
|
| So although you might find comraderie in other wage workers
| hating their life, still recognize that it is toxic and
| there are other realities that you are entitled to be in
| efwfwef wrote:
| This is really resonating with me, after two years in a
| job that had me think "I want to quit" by the weekly, it
| becomes the new normal and I can't imagine that a job can
| be stress-free, enjoyable, and provide good work-life
| balance. I just can't imagine that this exist.
|
| I just quit my current job, and I told myself that I will
| quit in less than 6 months if I don't like the new gig.
| Never again.
| [deleted]
| silicon2401 wrote:
| Absolutely agree. I can't recommend enough that people look
| for new jobs as soon as they have major issues with their
| current one. Worst case, things improve and you just stop
| looking for a new one. Best case, you get a new job and
| things are way better. Even if the new job isn't amazing, at
| least the novelty and change of pace, plus the pride of
| having accomplished a new job, can recharge you enough to
| keep going.
|
| At my first job, I was incredibly unhappy due to various
| reasons. I started looking for a job, and because I was
| already under so much strain from the current job, it took
| almost a year to find a new job. If I had waited until the
| breaking point, it would've been even more difficult to find
| a job due to having to recover from the first job, and then
| slog through almost a year of applying.
|
| This isn't to scare people about the job market. But it's
| called a market for a reason. It's okay to have something
| today and look around for something better, even if what you
| have now isn't the worst thing ever.
| efwfwef wrote:
| Actually now what I'm thinking is: if I have the savings,
| the safety net, etc. next time I want to quit and look for
| something else, I'll just quit, and then spend enjoy as
| much free time as I want (in month unit), and then only
| look for a job when I want to go back into a job. The
| reason is: if you look for a job while you already have a
| job, then they'll end up forcing you to start earlier than
| you want, or you'll have that pressure at least. Better to
| quit and enjoy your free time, and then get back into a job
| when you're ready.
| gabereiser wrote:
| what sucks is if you do this a dozen times you're labeled a
| job hopper and no one wants to hire you anyway. I've had it
| happen to me many times. If you just keep at it though
| you'll find somewhere better. Don't just take the first
| thing that comes along but really dig in and ask questions
| so you know what you're getting yourself into. Interview
| _THEM_.
| steveBK123 wrote:
| Yes I have this discussion with other people. You can
| interview and just.. not take the offers.
|
| The last couple places I left, I had offers up to a year or
| two before leaving but weighing cost-benefit, stayed at
| that time.
|
| It's better to have the option than not. And interviewing
| is truly not that much work. You don't have to be perfect.
| The less you need the job, the less the interview process
| should stress you. We call this "opportunistic
| interviewing".
|
| You can emphasize to the recruiter/HR/interviewer when
| pressed that - actually I'm happy where I am at the moment,
| but I am always up for a conversation and this sounded like
| it could be an interesting opportunity.
|
| You may find companies even respond more favorably in the
| interview process to you when you are somewhat aloof in
| this manner. You will also make connections with companies
| who may touch base from time to time to see if now is a
| better time to make the jump.
|
| This is infinitely better than having zero leads and feel
| like your life is going to hell before you even start
| looking.
| anaerobicover wrote:
| > You can emphasize to the recruiter/HR/interviewer when
| pressed that - actually I'm happy where I am at the
| moment, but I am always up for a conversation and this
| sounded like it could be an interesting opportunity.
|
| I agree with what you've said, but word of caution, this
| has to be handled with a bit of finesse, I think. I
| almost got passed over for a job because I said this and
| gave the recruiter the impression I wasn't that
| interested.
|
| I had a acquaintance on another team who mentioned it to
| me, and I did a little "damage control" with the hiring
| manager. I got a great offer in the end -- and it was a
| great job -- but without that contact I would probably
| have whiffed it.
| steveBK123 wrote:
| Exactly, finesse is the name of the game for sure. There
| is a wide spectrum between uninterested and not-
| desperate. Appearing that you are desperate to get out of
| your current job is a far bigger red flag in most
| interview processes than appearing "not that interested".
|
| It's like the other side of the coin of people who are
| super paranoid of getting fired if your boss finds out
| you are interviewing. If you are providing value, being a
| flight risk (within reason) increases your value not
| decreases.
|
| You don't want to be so obviously foot out the door that
| they are looking for your replacement, but being the
| happy, uncomplaining soldier is not going to get you
| optimal raises/promotions.
| comprev wrote:
| Indeed if the recruiter/hiring manager even gets a whiff
| that you're potentially wasting their time - it's game
| over.
| rtlfe wrote:
| > Indeed if the recruiter/hiring manager even gets a
| whiff that you're potentially wasting their time - it's
| game over.
|
| It really depends on the company and role and person. In
| some situations there can be years of conversations
| before somebody makes the decision to accept.
| justanother wrote:
| Agree except interview even more often, as soon as minor
| issues emerge. Interview a few times a year for no reason
| whatsoever. Interview because you're tired of the way the
| boss' tie looks, or because maybe you'll get another 10K a
| year. Doesn't mean you're unhappy, or that you're even
| interested in these other companies, but it keeps you in
| touch and you just never know.
| steveBK123 wrote:
| Yes. So many people I know wait for many years of bad
| raises / being unhappy before looking.
|
| By that point you are so far in the hole that the new
| shop raise is unlikely to make up for lost gains, and you
| are likely so desperate you are going to take whatever is
| on offer.
| gamedna wrote:
| Important topic that should be discussed more so employees can
| truly succeed, regardless of their reporting chain.
|
| Unfortunately this article didn't really deliver, and lacked
| substance for me.
| arbitrage wrote:
| This is a very week article; there is nothing specific in it
| about managing your boss. This only mentions that the concept
| exists.
|
| This is clickbait.
| rightbyte wrote:
| It reads like something you read in the airplane magazines in
| the pocket infront of you. I didn't know Reuters wrote these
| kind of articles. I wonder if it just is an add for Careerstone
| what ever that company does. I guess recruiting.
| l33tbro wrote:
| > This is a very week article.
|
| I don't usually police spelling, but ... yeah.
| quercusa wrote:
| A book recommendation: _Snakes in Suits: When Psychopaths Go to
| Work_ by Babiak. Lots of good material on recognizing the
| situation. But once you do, the advice is simple: get out.
| dandanua wrote:
| This article is useless and gives no real advice except "get
| out". To deal with abusers you have to learn to see tricks they
| use to emotionally destabilize their victims. For example, they
| can use hints and innuendos for intimidation. I wrote a blog post
| about such communication
| https://dandanua.github.io/posts/counterfactual-communicatio...
|
| Also, you can't really "manage" your boss if he/she is
| gaslighting you. This is a criminal offense (or should be,
| depending on where you live) and must be punished accordingly.
| skim_milk wrote:
| Let's be honest, telling people they have to accept their abuse
| and "get on your abusers' level and 'outsmart' them" is kind of
| wrong. The advice to leave your abusive boss and your
| insecurities behind and find a better paying job is, really,
| the only ethically correct advice. Your "option" of "trying to
| outplay" your boss only plays into the victims' insecurities
| and validates the abuser's hold.
| dandanua wrote:
| In some cases you can't just leave, you can have obligations
| and responsibilities. You can be tied with the firm and an
| abusive boss can take full advantage of it. In this case you
| have to play, it doesn't matter do you want it or not. But to
| "outplay" you don't have to be much smarter. If you are
| honest then the advice of trying to make communication more
| explicit will do it by itself, hopefully.
| evocatus wrote:
| Thanks for this article, this clarifies a number of things that
| have been causing me great distress lately.
| jancsika wrote:
| I feel like "gaslighting" and "Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect" are in a
| race to see who can gossip their away around the world first.
|
| As I understand it, "gaslighting" is quite nearly a form of
| kidnapping. The perpetrator is (consciously or otherwise) fucking
| with anything they can that provides the victim an anchor on
| reality. Cult leaders use this tactic all the time.
|
| Does it mean something else now?
| u678u wrote:
| Have many people had toxic bosses? I've had a string of the
| opposite - tech guys that took on team lead roles but would
| rather code, were too meek to give direction, didn't give any
| negative feedback even when I knew I did something badly, let
| people do what they wanted with little coordination.
| [deleted]
| chartpath wrote:
| That's just lack of leadership skills and possibly incompetence
| about subfields of development they don't have experience with.
| It can become toxic in its own way when the first bully/troll
| is hired since that person will pull the wool over this poor
| dev manager's eyes and make everyone else's lives terrible
| through bikeshedding and pointless meetings to debate
| unnecessary architecture proposals.
| rtlfe wrote:
| The thing you just called non-toxic definitely sounds toxic to
| me.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| If that's toxic, then everything is toxic, and the word no
| longer means anything.
| draw_down wrote:
| Obviously these things are real, but I think you should be very
| careful before you decide, oh I'm being gaslighted, or so-and-so
| is a narcissist. It is _very very easy_ to dismiss whatever you
| 'd rather not deal with using this terminology. At least in my
| country (US), this is increasingly prevalent. (Not in work
| environments specifically, but that's only a matter of time.)
|
| Again, the things they describe are real, and bad. That's why
| it's important to be judicious when using them. Then again, if
| you're just cynically using these for political purposes or
| otherwise to make people look bad, go nuts. That seems to work
| pretty well.
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