[HN Gopher] Fecal transplant turns cancer immunotherapy non-resp...
___________________________________________________________________
Fecal transplant turns cancer immunotherapy non-responders into
responders
Author : CharlesW
Score : 285 points
Date : 2021-02-05 15:53 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.eurekalert.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.eurekalert.org)
| bdauvergne wrote:
| Does not seem so new,
| https://science.sciencemag.org/content/359/6371/91 .
| rubatuga wrote:
| Stuff like this motivated me to do a minor in Immunology during
| university. And we still have no idea what is going on.
| mc32 wrote:
| Do people who work on Septic tanks (or nightsoilmen) and such
| share a common profile in regards to their immune system?
|
| Or is transplanting a requirement?
| PointyFluff wrote:
| Fantastic hypothesis.
| oblongx wrote:
| How would it work? Airborne poop particles? I've never seen
| my septic guy get poop on themselves and certainly not in
| themselves.
| sgtnoodle wrote:
| It seems reasonable that people in that line of work would
| get exposed to random folks' germs orders of magnitude more
| often than someone not working around waste, even if they
| aren't swimming in it.
| panzagl wrote:
| I would definitely mention it in my Yelp review if they
| did.
| agumonkey wrote:
| is the pace faster though ? I had the impression that small
| progress came more often in this decade.
| silexia wrote:
| I had a business idea a few years ago to do fecal transplants
| from famous people as a new LA business. There seems to be a
| lot of regulatory hurdles for doing it though. I would love to
| see someone do this both in disease treatment, as well as just
| to test out impact on things like mental or athletic
| performance.
| at_a_remove wrote:
| In 2012, Brandon Cronenberg, son of David, released a movie
| called _Antiviral_ about a niche product -- viruses and
| bacteria harvested from celebrities who become sick, in order
| to inject them into paying clients who want a "connection"
| with the famous.
| klmadfejno wrote:
| What exactly was the rational behind that?
| gambiting wrote:
| I mean, if people are willing to pay money for Gwyneth
| Paltrow's vagina eggs or Twitch streamer's bath water, I
| can only imagine the small fortune people would pay for a
| bacteria transplant from a famous person, even if it had no
| effect whatsoever(you can always craft a cleverly worded ad
| that suggests there are benefits but never actually states
| so as a fact).
| klmadfejno wrote:
| It would have an effect though. That's a direct
| alteration to your gut microbiome. I guess, sure,
| fetishists are a thing. But I'm not sure it's a viable
| target market haha.
| gambiting wrote:
| You could probably sterilise it so there's absolutely no
| live anything remaining and people would still buy it.
| But yes, it's probably a tough market :-P
| jb1991 wrote:
| So the core idea in this study was actually determined by an
| algorithm to focus their attention:
|
| > Artificial intelligence linked these changes to the gut
| microbiome, likely caused by FMT.
| qzw wrote:
| The procedure seems to have all kinds of benefits, but I think
| the name could've really used some of the good ol'
| marketingspeak. I bet a lot more people would be open to getting
| something like a "digestive microbiome transfer" than the more
| accurate but gross "fecal transplant".
| buggythebug wrote:
| People with cancer don't care what a medicine/treatment is
| called.
| rubyfan wrote:
| I'd guess most of people that need this treatment are very
| happy to overlook the name or even reality of what it is. If
| it leads to better health than they're able to sustain right
| now, then yeah by all means.
| robocat wrote:
| Are you a doctor?
|
| I hear stories of people using alternative "medicine" and
| eschewing (normal|western)? medicine, so I think you are
| incorrect. Anecdotally I personally know of one person who
| used indigenous herbs to treat their cancer (I don't know the
| outcome of that).
| m463 wrote:
| " _late_ digestive microbiome transfer "
|
| "early digestive microbiome transfer" would be .. bar.. puk..
| emetic reflux transplantation.
| pvaldes wrote:
| I assume that we could just isolate and culture the bacteria
| colonies in clean agar agar, solving the problem.
| joering2 wrote:
| Almost perfect IMHO.. but word "transfer" sound to me like a
| transplant. May I suggest "digestive microbiome rejuvenation" ?
| djbelieny wrote:
| You win today's INTERWEBS MARKETING ACHIEVEMENT BADGE.You may
| have a cookie;
| filoleg wrote:
| agreed that "transfer" sounds and feels similar to
| "transplant". But imo the "transplant" part in "fecal matter
| transplant" was not the part that was problematic for public
| perception lol.
|
| I think both "digestive microbiome transfer" and "digestive
| microbiome transplant" sound perfectly fine, as both get rid
| of the "gross" part of the name. But I think that "transfer"
| is slightly better, because "transplant" invokes associations
| with something being surgically put into my body and attached
| to stay there permanently. While "transfer" doesn't have the
| same sense of permanence and seriousness attached to it.
| ghgdynb1 wrote:
| You may have a gift
| leptoniscool wrote:
| You're right a lot of things has benefited from rebranding. For
| example instead of 'cow feet juice', it's now Jello.
| TylerE wrote:
| Rapeseed -> Canola
| mv4 wrote:
| Patagonian toothfish -> Chilean sea bass
| arcticbull wrote:
| Slimehead -> Orange Roughy
| loveJesus wrote:
| pornography -> art
| m463 wrote:
| pervasive surveillance and tracking -> Advertising
| legerdemain wrote:
| Tyranny -> "representative" government.
|
| Extortion -> taxation.
|
| Invasion into the minute detail of my attire -> public
| "decency" laws.
| arcticbull wrote:
| Yeah, taxation isn't extortion and tyranny isn't
| representative government tho but otherwise agreed!
|
| I would argue the conversion is the one you're utilizing,
| from "taxation" to "extortion."
|
| Extortion is a specifically defined crime, and of course,
| it is the role of the government to define criminal
| behavior. In the same way that getting arrested by the
| police isn't kidnapping, paying taxes isn't extortion.
|
| The consent of the governed and all that.
| treeman79 wrote:
| Turns out if you don't pay taxes or fines, at the extreme
| you can be shot to death. This is legal.
|
| Lot of laws and rules are arbitrary, so a government
| official get a "fine", sometimes massive fines, placed
| against you.
|
| You pay it or lose everything, go to jail, or get shot
| for refusing.
|
| Lots of struggling business owners are finding themselves
| in this situation lately.
| arcticbull wrote:
| Lots of small business owners are getting shot for not
| paying taxes? Generally you have to make profit to pay
| taxes. Otherwise they've been substantial beneficiaries
| of programs like the PPP.
| frongpik wrote:
| Oppression -> safety measures.
| objektif wrote:
| Be evil -> Don't be evil.
| joseluis wrote:
| Don't be evil -> Don't don't be evil
| yholio wrote:
| Genius.
| mv4 wrote:
| survival -> stimulus
| Ntrails wrote:
| I always wondered what the hell canola was (not enough to
| look it up, but, still)
| TylerE wrote:
| It stands for CANadian Oil Low Acid.
| ngoldbaum wrote:
| CANadian Oil Low Acid, it's lower in erucic acid than
| other rapeseed cultivars. In the early 70s there were
| studies in rats that showed that erucic acid caused heart
| disease so canola was marketed as being healthier.
| hnick wrote:
| That's the same acid which lead to mustard oil being
| banned, hence it being labelled 'for ceremonial purposes
| only' or something similar in Indian groceries in the US
| as a wink-wink workaround.
| mleonhard wrote:
| Is mustard oil used in a lot of Indian cuisine? I wonder
| if that has something to do with the high rates of heart
| disease in people of Indian descent?
| hnick wrote:
| I have no firsthand knowledge of Indian home cooking, but
| here's an article about it which claims it's common.
|
| https://www.seriouseats.com/2020/02/mustard-oil-
| guide.html
|
| From what I've seen in passing most people attribute
| rising heart disease to economic prosperity leading to a
| more westernised diet but I haven't really looked into
| it.
| markdown wrote:
| I've only seen it used to make Aam ka achaar (mango
| pickle)
| DevKoala wrote:
| Terrorism -> Antifacism
| ficklepickle wrote:
| Chicken periods -> eggs
| yongjik wrote:
| Wouldn't call it a successful rebranding. Cow feet soup is
| positively delicious (and rather expensive).
| bayindirh wrote:
| and immune system boosting. :)
| ryanisnan wrote:
| You're missing the point. Cow feet soup might be positively
| delicious, but from a North American standpoint (and
| probably most western cultures), it's not something people
| are lining up for.
| jacoblambda wrote:
| I wouldn't necessarily say that, pig feet soups are
| extremely popular in the south, particularly in Cajun
| cuisine. It's not exactly the same but is rather similar.
| Almost everyone knows what it is and it doesn't both us
| that it is what it is despite being in NA.
| treeman79 wrote:
| Chicken foot soup also tasty.
|
| Burritos with an actual foot inside of, well coworkers
| say it's good.
| _tom_ wrote:
| Dolphin Fish -> Mahi Mahi
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahi-mahi
| Turing_Machine wrote:
| Dog salmon or chum salmon -> "keta" salmon, or
| "silverbrite" salmon.
| LinuxBender wrote:
| Crushed parasitic beetles -> Starbucks strawberry drink
| [1]
|
| [1] - https://inhabitat.com/starbucks-admits-its-
| strawberry-drinks...
| layoutIfNeeded wrote:
| Half-digested plant cum, vomited out by insects = honey
| mirekrusin wrote:
| Caviar vs fish babies.
| MS-DDOS wrote:
| HN has been devovling into Reddit for a while now. Smh.
| throwawgler87 wrote:
| Anyone know if gelatin causes extra animals to be killed? If
| not, you probably could feel okay about it.
| darth_avocado wrote:
| Not if you're vegetarians. Or Hindus.
| Ekaros wrote:
| Probably not. Lot of parts can produce gelatin and they are
| usually not the ones eaten or are less preferable. So
| actually I think it likely did reduce waste.
| fencepost wrote:
| Very unlikely as it's basically a way to get value out of
| low value parts. If sources on Wikipedia are to be trusted
| it's mostly made from pig and cow hides, which is why you
| can also find kosher gelatin (where the supply chain is
| known and free of pork products).
| CobrastanJorji wrote:
| Well, maybe. By finding a valuable use for an otherwise
| unused part of the animal, you're increasing the value of
| raising and slaughtering animals, and increasing the value
| of something usually encourages more of it. But it's more
| interesting than that because the main market is for the
| meat, and if the availability of meat were to decrease
| because it's not as profitable, one would expect the price
| to go back up a bit, which would in turn encourage more
| production.
| yholio wrote:
| That's a strange way to frame it. Reducing waste will
| allow farmers to cover more of the production costs using
| non-meat revenue. In a competitive market, this will push
| them to lower the price of meat, stimulating its
| consumption, and increasing the number of animals, which
| in turn will lead to economies of scale, lower costs and
| prices, even higher demand and even more animals.
| mmastrac wrote:
| Morals of animal consumption aside, adding demand for any
| part of an animal will add some degree of financial benefit
| for using animals in general (ie: reducing waste by making
| use of an additional part means more $ in the farmer's
| pocket per cow).
| nkingsy wrote:
| What about that fancy organic fertilizer?
| WalterSear wrote:
| Everything that increases the profit of a system, by being
| a revenue source or even just reducing the cost of the
| process, contributes to the system.
|
| Yes, animals are being killed and ground up to make
| gelatin.
| 29athrowaway wrote:
| Fraud -> Subprime mortgage crisis
|
| Theft -> Quantitative Easing
| SAI_Peregrinus wrote:
| Bank Fraud -> Identity Theft
| chihuahua wrote:
| Bank robbery -> Undocumented withdrawal
| thunkshift1 wrote:
| Hold up.. what?
| WalterSear wrote:
| Jello is called jello because it's made from gelatin. Which
| was some poor cow's hooves, among other things.
| zests wrote:
| Nuclear MRI (NMRI) -> MRI
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_resonance_imaging
| hjek wrote:
| alligator pear - avocado
| rpastuszak wrote:
| Or rather: testicles -> alligator pear
| legerdemain wrote:
| But in actual reality: edible testicles -> mountain
| oysters.
| jcims wrote:
| Ooh, that one went the wrong way imho
| mirekrusin wrote:
| Sushi vs cold, dead fish.
| TheMagicHorsey wrote:
| OMG! This is the worst TIL of my entire life. I eat a
| shameful amount of Jello as an adult, and I did not know
| this!
| throwaway316943 wrote:
| It's good for you
| hh3k0 wrote:
| I'd argue that cow feet are best for cows.
| Spooky23 wrote:
| If people didn't eat cows or drink milk, they'd be like
| most other large ruminants... extinct.
| MisterTea wrote:
| They don't need them after they've been sent to the
| market.
| taneq wrote:
| If it makes you feel better it's often pig feet, and
| sometimes various knees.
|
| Also, gelatin is in EVERYTHING. Good luck eating virtually
| any dessert if you're a strict vegetarian.
| dashundchen wrote:
| As someone who eats plant based, that is definitely not
| the case in the US. Gelatin is very easy to avoid.
|
| Outside of jello itself, the common desserts that contain
| it are chewy candies and some mousse type desserts. So
| canolli, mousse, and flan frequently have gelatin, along
| with things like Starbursts and some chewing gums, but
| other than that I have not found it to be a common
| ingredient.
| taneq wrote:
| Weird... In Australia (last I checked at least, maybe
| it's changed) it's commonly in chocolate, ice cream, and
| any kind of soft sweet, to the point where it's nigh
| impossible to get any of the above without it.
| jcul wrote:
| In Ireland it would be very rare for me to see it in ice-
| cream or chocolate, and I'm fairly religious about
| checking labels. Plenty of sweets / jellies, but these
| days there are more and more vegan / vegetarian options.
| worker767424 wrote:
| > chocolate
|
| Definitely not in anything like a bar of chocolate.
|
| > ice cream
|
| Oddly, this seems to vary a lot by country. It's rare in
| the US, though. Guar gum is common, though.
| hjek wrote:
| Expert vegan here. No, gelatin is never in plain
| chocolates, but often added to diced coconut!
| kevinmchugh wrote:
| People who keep kosher or halal mostly avoid gelatin, so
| countries with notable kosher, halal, and
| vegetarian/vegan populations probably see less gelatin
| use.
| fencepost wrote:
| For chocolates it might be in things with foams or
| nougat. Definitely in marshmallows.
| worker767424 wrote:
| Ah. chocolates != chocolate
|
| Usually nougat uses egg whites so it doesn't need gelatin
| as a protein. Marshmallows are arguably nougat, though,
| since they're also sugar bound with protein. Marshmallow
| cream usually uses egg.
|
| All of the major nougat US candy bars I can find use egg
| and not gelatin.
|
| I've seen chocolates with marshmallow in them.
| nicoburns wrote:
| There are very good vegetarian substitutes for gelatine,
| they're just more expensive. So gelatine content can vary
| quite widely by market depending on the number of
| vegetarians. Here in the UK it used to be in a lot more
| things 20 years ago than it is now.
| coliveira wrote:
| Not just food, gelatin is also found in shampoos, face
| masks, cosmetics in general, and all kinds of candy.
| worker767424 wrote:
| The theme in the US is things that are chewy and things
| that are stored cold and need to retain a texture.
|
| The common places you might not expect it are sour cream,
| yogurt, fondant, and some Planters dry-roasted nuts.
| amelius wrote:
| And the red coloring in many foods (E120) is made from
| insects.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmine
| gknoy wrote:
| I still remember (with a mixture of awe and horror) the
| video I saw that showed how gummy bears are made... in
| reverse. So you start with delicious looking things, and
| it just gets more and more nightmarish. It was
| brilliantly done, and I am pretty sure I think of it
| almost every time I think about gummy candies.
|
| I think I found it again by searching for "reverse gummy
| bear video". I won't link it directly, so that if you
| really don't want to see it, there's less chance of
| reflexively clicking a link. ;)
| RankingMember wrote:
| Welp, guess I've eaten my last gummy bear. At least
| Swedish Fish are gelatin-free!
|
| The video, for anyone wanting a direct link (be warned,
| it's exactly as gknoy described):
| https://vimeo.com/180163754
| frongpik wrote:
| Decomposing an alive pig into gummy bears is like making
| gold bars out of laptops.
| fencepost wrote:
| Fascinating, never thought about how they get the skin
| off. Think in terms of a cross between a large powered
| vegetable peeler and a packing tape dispenser (the kind
| with a handle).
|
| The video is not actually gory - shows parts of the
| cleaning and butchering process, but not the
| slaughterhouse.
| InitialLastName wrote:
| Warning: Don't watch the same video for electronics
| (assuming it exists and gets back to the heavy metal
| mines)
| pvaldes wrote:
| A different question could be why are you a strict
| vegetarian when your species evolved as an omnivore
|
| Everybody turning strict vegetarian would create an
| ecological disaster at planetary level.
| InitialLastName wrote:
| Why is that worse than the planetary-level ecological
| disaster that's currently being exacerbated by everyone
| in the developed world eating a ridiculous amount of
| meat?
|
| My species also "evolved" to constantly fight wars
| against everyone not in my family; I'd say it's really
| good news that we were able to develop moral and
| conceptual systems to overwhelm our evolutionary
| tendencies.
| hnick wrote:
| So you live a hunter gatherer lifestyle, mostly outdoors,
| and definitely don't sit in a chair out of the sun for
| hours at a time? Since we're talking about evolution.
| taurath wrote:
| The history of gelatin as a food product is fascinating,
| as it exploded in popularity in the mid century - check
| out some of these.... interesting looking dishes.
|
| https://flashbak.com/meals-in-a-mold-the-mid-centurys-
| love-a...
|
| https://www.thedailymeal.com/eat/why-were-there-so-many-
| gela...
| JTbane wrote:
| luckily there are alternatives if you are vegan, such as
| agar and pectin
| interestica wrote:
| Do they still use horse parts for the glue that keeps the
| boxes shut?
| legerdemain wrote:
| No, but there are plenty of horse parts in red wine.
| worker767424 wrote:
| It's more common in white wine.
| djrogers wrote:
| Not sure where you're from, but at least for American-
| made wines that's not often the case, as there are many
| more common and/or cheaper sources for chitin, casein,
| gelatin, etc. (pig and cow, as well as egg based sources
| for example). Also, blood-based fining agents have been
| outlawed in the US and Europe since the mid 90s thanks to
| the mad-cow scare.
|
| Of course this conversation also ignores the fact that
| fining agents are removed from wine before bottling as
| part of their purpose - they bind with the crap you don't
| want in your wine. Typical store-bought wine will have no
| detectable amount of a fining agent in it.
| legerdemain wrote:
| It's contamination "by association." I don't think it's
| debatable that fewer people would drink wine with
| pleasure if I told them it was filtered through human
| bone char, even if I didn't include any in the bottle.
| brailsafe wrote:
| I hope so, horses are terrifying.
| scythe wrote:
| You know, it's kind of funny. Horses might have a better
| argument than any other animal for being the natural
| predator of humans. Specifically, nomadic depredations on
| preindustrial societies comprised armies with a
| proportionally small number of humans and a large number
| of horses pillaging towns and cities full of horseless
| humans. In 13th-century Asia, the average horse probably
| had a better life than the average human. The same thing
| happened shortly after the horse was (re)introduced to
| North America in the sixteenth century; settled
| agricultural societies were quickly overrun by horse-
| riding nomads.
| masklinn wrote:
| Hopefully, what else are you going to do with hooves and
| bones otherwise, throw them away? That's wasteful!
|
| (in reality there's almost no chance, synthetic glues are
| way easier to manufacture and manage, outside of gelatin
| animal glues would near-only be used for restoration or
| specialty applications e.g. some lutherie and other
| speciality woodworking)
| jarmitage wrote:
| I can't wait until there exists a poop culture + social
| platforms around otherwise ordinary people with celebrity fecal
| matter.
|
| Merch plop!
| mirekrusin wrote:
| And wine tasting/perfume shop like experience? This must be
| one of those million dollar ideas.
| jarmitage wrote:
| And poopfluencers who have secret diets that give you
| psychedelic brain-gut experiences
| equalsione wrote:
| Surely you meant to say "poop culture"?
| jarmitage wrote:
| Fixed x2
| breakfastduck wrote:
| I don't think he did. We're already at poop culture level
| as far as I can tell.
| [deleted]
| justinator wrote:
| "You stuff someone else's shit! Up your ass!"
|
| I guess the counterpoint is that maybe we don't have to
| sanitize every damn thing in the world, since a sanitized world
| isn't a healthy world - and perhaps contributes to an
| individual's wonky biome.
| whoisburbansky wrote:
| The tone of the first half of your comment had me thinking
| the rest of it was about not sanitizing vocabulary, rather
| than talking about the hygiene hypothesis, haha.
| m463 wrote:
| I think you would only transplant healthy biomes, which have
| plenty of immune system action involved so that there are
| plenty of beneficial bacteria, and little or no say e coli.
|
| It might actually be the transplanting of immune cells that
| helps strengthen the recipients' immune action
| Blikkentrekker wrote:
| The Darwinist in me, honestly, welcomes the death of foolish
| men by their own hand, who would opt-out of a life-saving
| procedure for but a dislike of it's name.
| [deleted]
| surfsvammel wrote:
| Hacker news is one of the places where I often value the comments
| more than the linked articles themselves. But wow. This thread is
| full of pseudo-science type reasoning. Let's be careful. We have
| science and the scientific methods to investigate things like
| this. It's worked very well for us for a long time, let's try to
| have som faith in it.
| [deleted]
| npsimons wrote:
| > Hacker news is one of the places where I often value the
| comments more than the linked articles themselves. But wow.
| This thread is full of pseudo-science type reasoning.
|
| It's been this way for years. HN is really quite good when it
| comes to things in their wheelhouse (software, tech companies),
| but hilariously bad about diet and related issues, I suspect
| because it's a sore spot for many and they are in denial.
| pas wrote:
| Diet is one of the things that's absolutely full of bad
| science, because it's hard to study. So claiming HN is
| somehow in denial implies there's an amazing scientific
| consensus. (Also even if we take the best studies at face
| value the relative risk differences are ridiculously low
| between diets. [At least as far as I know.])
| npsimons wrote:
| > (Also even if we take the best studies at face value the
| relative risk differences are ridiculously low between
| diets. [At least as far as I know.])
|
| See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. I'm willing to
| bet that just like me, you're not an expert in that field.
| And there are people who are experts in the field,
| reviewing the literature, and have come up with a pretty
| good consensus.
| tryonenow wrote:
| I think it's reasonable for laymen to be skeptical of
| expert consensus in soft, non-experimental fields,
| especially when the consensus frequently changes
| significantly and is strongly influenced by industry,
| e.g. the views on dietary sugar/fat, cause of
| alzheimer's, lobotomies...
|
| Particularly when consensus is not unanimous.
| pas wrote:
| I never claimed I was.
|
| I'm basically regurgitating the Bad Food Bible book
| (written by Aaron Carroll, the guy who hosts
| HealthCareTriage).
| npsimons wrote:
| Well, I'm regurgitating a Dr. Greger of
| https://nutritionfacts.org, who is constantly reading
| studies and papers to get to the bottom of dietary
| science. You're welcome to spool through his hours of
| video on YouTube on the subject (where he quotes excerpts
| from studies he's read), or maybe just start with this
| one on gut flora and obesity:
|
| https://nutritionfacts.org/video/gut-flora-obesity/
|
| Sources are under the video.
| pas wrote:
| Yes, so. The linked video is about a n=30 observational
| study. "Diet science" is full of this. (At least this
| study explicitly noted that no inference regarding health
| outcomes were made.)
|
| The guy is fighting the good fight (against USDA and so
| on), but this is still the HN is hilariously bad at diet
| and related issues.
| breakfastduck wrote:
| Dude there is far from a 'consensus' in this field.
|
| Recommending reading one guys opinion on it sorta proves
| the point.
| bdauvergne wrote:
| What if there is no field to talk about ? Most people
| cannot believe that some part of science are not as
| advanced as others. But there are good reasons, nobody
| care enough to throw enough money at tit. Look at obesity
| in the US, if someone cared about it, if would be fixed.
| Much more money was thrown at advancing internal
| combustion motors than improving diet of the average
| citizen of the USA.
| Lopiolis wrote:
| Well, more than diet, anything that isn't technical in
| nature. Economics, (geo-)politics, biology (particularly
| humans), etc. There's a lot of that fallacy around here that
| being knowledgeable/smart in one area means that obviously it
| transfers to every other field.
| npsimons wrote:
| I just remember a while back fecal transplants came up here
| (and other forums I frequent) as a "treatment" for obesity,
| as they found different gut flora between obese and healthy
| weight populations. So many people were thinking they could
| get a fecal transplant to cure their obesity, not stopping
| to ask maybe _what_ was causing gut flora to be different
| between obese and healthy weight populations.
|
| And as for diet, the studies are out there. I'm no expert,
| but I listen to people who could credibly be argued are (as
| one example Dr. Greger who reads tons of studies and cites
| them in his videos), and typically their advice comes down
| to common wisdom that people just don't want to hear: eat
| _food_ , not too much, mostly _plants_.
| neuronic wrote:
| I mean, full agreement here but the... that science should be
| done and not financially starved because the outcome serves no
| long-term financial interests.
| m463 wrote:
| I'm from the internet and I might not actually have a science
| degree, but I _do_ have a Ph.D. in the thousands of beneficial
| uses of hemp.
| hinkley wrote:
| The scientific method works at a very slow pace and goes even
| slower when public opinion is against an idea.
|
| We have a lot of known unknowns about gut biota. And a lot of
| people whose gut biota are literally killing them. And a lot of
| friends and family of those people. They are of course going to
| be frustrated. Especially when they look at how long those
| question marks have existed. Get to it already!
|
| Feyman's wife died while the antibiotic that saved people like
| her was in drug trials. Can you imagine being that close to a
| cure and missing it? When I read about people dying of
| infections mid century I have to pull up my calendar and just
| pity them a little bit more.
| surfsvammel wrote:
| I am not sure what you mean by 'the scientific method is
| slow'. Compared to what, really? Just winging it? But I think
| I see what you mean. And yes, science do take time. From
| discoveries in basic science, all the way to clinical trials
| and then treatment approval, there is significant lead time.
| And, of course, it is especially sad for those who suffer
| when treatment seem to be just around the corner.
|
| But the alternative is surely worse; to not test, to not
| review or to base treatment on other things than facts.
|
| And, one more thing. The speed at which we have scienced the
| shit out of Covid (the amount of science that we have done in
| response to this virus) is, at least to me, astounding. If we
| succeed, which it looks like we will, to win this battle
| using the vaccines which are already available, it, not only,
| is in favour of science in fact being very quick, but could
| also be considered one of humanities greatest feats.
| robocat wrote:
| > The speed at which we have scienced the shit out of Covid
|
| Alternatively I have been absolutely appalled at how slow
| our institutions have been to respond correctly in so many
| ways.
|
| 1. Anosmia: it took months before I heard about it, and
| months before it got added to lists of symptoms. A common
| and distinctive signal back before we had testing was an
| opportunity lost.
|
| 2. The emphasis on hand washing and the de-emphasis of
| transmission by air... dangerously retarded.
|
| 3. The whole face masks bullshit - all the probabilities
| pointed towards their use being beneficial... because even
| small reductions to the speed of transmission can reduce
| exponential growth.
|
| 4. The lack of information about real-world testing of
| transmission - presumably virus transmission was tested on
| people in more than one authoritarian country, yet I never
| saw the results of that testing surface.
|
| The above are only some of the significant delays that I
| saw in the transmission of science and fact during the
| epidemic, and I haven't even really looked into the topic
| in depth (mostly I just skimmed HN for information).
| [deleted]
| ngngngng wrote:
| Isn't all science "pseudo-science type reasoning" before
| someone goes out and proves/disproves it? I don't see a problem
| with some curious conversation.
| tkzed49 wrote:
| there's nothing wrong with sharing anecdotes, but it's not
| science until someone actually does the "proving/disproving"
| in a convincing way.
| surfsvammel wrote:
| Well, it might be wrong to share anecdotes, IMO. We should
| always be careful when communicating online as we don't
| know who we might be communicating with. Someone might take
| those anecdotes as proof that something works, and might go
| out and do something that might not be safe.
| surfsvammel wrote:
| No. There is difference. Science works by making
| observations, making hypothesis and then testing those. The
| result is some kind of knowledge which is useful for making
| predictions.
|
| Reasoning in this world is based on that. We only make
| predictions when something is tested, established or pure
| fact.
|
| What I mean by pseudo-science type reasoning is; not based on
| any fact, nor any position which has been tested
| (scientifically), nor any established knowledge. Instead it
| is often based on anecdotes or the reason is motivated or
| heavily biased.
|
| Frankly, I don't care too much about bad reasoning. But when
| there is risk that it might be understood as recommendations,
| and it might be unsafe for someone reading it, then I think
| it's dangerous.
| bluSCALE4 wrote:
| How about calling it the anti-douche. Who wouldn't want an anti-
| douche.
| jonplackett wrote:
| Holy shit! That's amazing.
| npsimons wrote:
| I'm curious if you could get the same effects by changing your
| diet, and what that diet is. I suspect this is at the bottom of
| all gut microbiome "problems", and furthermore that any fecal
| transplant will only have temporary effects if one continues to
| have a bad diet.
| [deleted]
| kbelder wrote:
| I think antibiotics can cause a lot of problems. You get strep
| throat, take antibiotics, and it kills off something in your
| gut you've had all your life. How do you get it back? Eat
| yogurt? That's nonsense. There are supplements that supposedly
| help rebuild your intestinal flora, but I'm pretty skeptical
| that they work.
|
| So a bad diet can definitely kick your microbiome out of whack,
| but I don't think that's the only cause.
| npsimons wrote:
| > So a bad diet can definitely kick your microbiome out of
| whack, but I don't think that's the only cause.
|
| True, but I think it's just one of those truths people know
| but don't want to hear: a baseline of good health is
| behaviors/habits that boost it, and that includes things like
| getting enough good sleep, adequate exercise and a diet that
| is not just _enough_ food (not too little and not too much),
| but _the right kind of food_. If we 're going to go down the
| path of judging some gut flora as "better" than others, it
| behooves us to discover _how_ to get those gut flora, and it
| only makes sense a large part of that is what we ingest.
|
| And yeah, I'm opposed to overuse of antibiotics too. In the
| same vein, fecal transplants seem like a quick fix that might
| be justifiable (ie cancer cases), but shouldn't be seen as a
| "get out of jail free card" for bad habits.
| f430 wrote:
| What exactly is a fecal transplant?? This isnt the first time I
| heard of this technique and it seems to have wide reaching
| effectiveness.
| TylerE wrote:
| It's what it sounds like.
|
| They take feces from one person, and then place it into the gut
| of the recipient, either via enema or a tube down the nose and
| through the stomach.
| f430 wrote:
| whoa thats what I suspected but hoped it was just a small
| transfer via probe...omg but I guess its quite effective in
| multiple medical papers I've read
| giarc wrote:
| They actually halted a random control trial at one point
| since the treatment arm was so successful it was unethical
| to continue and not provide treatment to all.
| gus_massa wrote:
| I can't read the paper now. How many persons were in the
| control group and how many in the intervention group?
| giarc wrote:
| I don't think the paper is paywalled.
|
| https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1205037
| gus_massa wrote:
| >>> _They actually halted a random control trial_ [...]
|
| Thanks, but I misunderstood and though that you were
| commenting about the current treatment against cancer.
| TylerE wrote:
| As transplants go, it's not even in the same state, never
| mind ballpark, as any other.
|
| No slicing you open, no lifetime of immunosuppressing anti-
| rejection drugs...
| [deleted]
| tyingq wrote:
| I wonder why there isn't an easy way to do it with a time-
| release coating/capsule.
|
| Edit: Apparently there is...they are called "FMT Capsules".
| war1025 wrote:
| I'm really not sure whether I'd rather have a poop enema or
| willingly swallow poop even if contained in a capsule.
|
| I would guess it's "possible" but also there is probably a
| lot of logistics involved in "take my poop and put it into
| your guts".
|
| Back fifteen or so years ago I saw a video somewhere
| talking about some people doing this to help with an immune
| condition. What I remember was basically, "We put my poop
| in a blender with some water to thin it out, and then they
| stick a tube up their butt and pour that in"
|
| Sounded like it wasn't just a one time deal, more something
| that needed to happen on a regular basis.
| chordalkeyboard wrote:
| > I'm really not sure whether I'd rather have a poop
| enema or willingly swallow poop even if contained in a
| capsule.
|
| Whats really disgusting is that your insides are already
| full of poop cause thats where its made.
| war1025 wrote:
| > already full of poop cause thats where its made.
|
| Your intestines are full of poop. Your stomach isn't full
| of poop. Your throat and mouth aren't full of poop.
|
| Vomiting is very unpleasant. Vomit isn't poop. The
| thought of poop in your mouth is very unpleasant.
|
| I really don't understand how a comment stating, "I
| really think it would be a toss-up for me which method I
| would prefer" is down-voted through the floor.
| giarc wrote:
| I replied to the same comment, but to your point about
| willingly swallow poop pills, I've been there when many
| patients are tasked with taking this. I'd say patients
| have no issue with the pills since it typically means
| they've had debilitating diarrhea for 6 months or longer
| if they are at the FMT stage. When I was involved, the
| treatment was around 20-30 pills in one go. The hardest
| part for most was the amount of water they drank trying
| to swallow that many pills at once. One guy we treated
| had IBS and had been taking pills all his life. He downed
| the 30 pills in like 5 minutes and was done. He came back
| the next day and said he had never felt better in 20
| years. For some, it's like a miracle drug.
| hammock wrote:
| They are working on it
| https://designershitdocumentary.com/fmt-capsules-pills/
| giarc wrote:
| There is! And I was part of that work! The tough part is
| getting the pill through the stomach where the pills are
| designed to disolve. Typically we double encapsulate the
| pill to get it to the intestine. Dr. Louie actually tested
| this by filling the pills with radio opaque liquid (barium
| I think) and swallowing the pill and taking serial xrays to
| see when the pill dissolved.
|
| My involvement with this was as a donor.
|
| https://ucalgary.ca/news/poop-pill-capsule-research-paves-
| wa...
| samstave wrote:
| A donor of what exactly - of your poop? What a weird
| thing...
|
| "Looking for a donor of fecal matter to participate in a
| study on transfer of poop from donor to host"
|
| Is that the ad you responded to?
| giarc wrote:
| Yes, I would poop into a container and deliver it to the
| lab. I work in Infection Control in the hospital where
| the lab is. I worked with Dr Louie all the time so I was
| an "insider", I didn't respond to any ads. For the
| longest time he always used family donors (husband would
| provide for wife or something) and I was one of the first
| non-related donors. I was a good candidate since I worked
| on site, was willing to undergo ongoing blood work and
| stool cultures, was young, healthy etc.
|
| My go to story is there once was a patient come up from
| California for treatment. Around this time there was a
| big news article about a patient who gained a ton of
| weight after receiving a transplant from her overweight
| mom. The patient, due to her condition, was on a strict
| diet and therefore it was assumed the weight gain was due
| to the transplant from an overweight person. That began
| the speculation that transplants could be used for weight
| control etc. Anyways, I went down to the lab to drop off
| my sample and the lab tech said to the patient "Hey, your
| donor is here, want to meet him?" and she came running
| around the corner, looked me up and down and just said
| "he's good". I felt like a real life page from a sperm
| donor book! This patient had heard the news and was happy
| I was not overweight.
| exolymph wrote:
| Idk why this was downvoted, samstave just asked some
| follow-up questions that elicited an interesting
| response. Upvoted to attempt some counterbalance.
| umvi wrote:
| It's exactly what it sounds like... when you put someone else's
| poop up your butt
| samstave wrote:
| Go on....
| Engineering-MD wrote:
| It is generally an oral supplement rather than a reveal
| suppository.
| chordalkeyboard wrote:
| It's exactly what it sounds like... when you eat someone
| else's poop under the supervision of a team of physicians
| _Microft wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_feces#Fecal_transplants
| stickydink wrote:
| Exactly what it sounds like. Fecal matter from a healthy
| person, transplanted into the GI system of an unhealthy person.
| Benefits come from all the "good bacteria" living in there that
| are missing.
|
| YouTube has some deliciously informative videos if you'd like
| to watch a real surgery!
| samstave wrote:
| " deliciously informative videos"
|
| I don't think that's the correct phrasing for this particular
| subject...
| PointyFluff wrote:
| Uh...there's no surgery involved.
| stickydink wrote:
| I'm not incredibly familiar, but I watched some of those
| tasty videos I referenced. It certainly looked like there
| was somebody in there unconscious, with a Dr gowned up.
| Tubes and cameras and robot arms inserting various things.
|
| Depends where you draw the line at surgery VS procedure,
| does something have to be cut? Who knows! Either way, I
| recommend not DIY'ing this one.
| [deleted]
| 1337shadow wrote:
| See full procedure details in 20 seconds here
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKX2afmgcEM
| tonyedgecombe wrote:
| I don't want to watch that video.
| nathancahill wrote:
| I knew exactly which video this was before clicking.
| programmarchy wrote:
| > Davar and colleagues collected fecal samples from patients who
| responded extraordinarily well to anti-PD-1 immunotherapy and
| tested for infectious pathogens before giving the samples,
| through colonoscopy, to advanced melanoma patients who had never
| previously responded to immunotherapy. The patients were then
| given the anti-PD-1 drug pembrolizumab. And it worked.
|
| It's pretty crazy that your gut biome can change the way your
| body responds to skin cancer treatment.
|
| Could this work for basically anything immune-related? Maybe
| people who got COVID but were asymptomatic could donate some
| poop.
| tharkun__ wrote:
| This is something that I've been thinking for quite some time
| now (i.e. pre-COVID and just generally health related).
|
| I was on lots of anti-biotics as a kid and I turned from skinny
| to fat at some point. We know already from
| experiments/treatments being made that fecal transplants can
| make a fat person skinny for example (no I didn't do that :))
|
| Personally I transformed my life from being very lethargic and
| not being able to tolerate anything but small amounts of
| certain foods and also alcoholic beverages without getting
| major migraines by getting the right probiotics. To give you an
| idea, eating leftover lasagna two days in a row was a sure fire
| way to get a migraine, as was drinking a bottle of alcohol-free
| beer and anything with alcohol was even worse. Even just small
| amounts. We're talking migraines where you feel like you're
| gonna puke and my eyesight was affected as well.
|
| I felt really sick for about 2 weeks after starting the right
| probiotics. And it wasn't just any probiotics that would do. I
| tried out different ones, until I found a specific one that
| mainly differs in one bacterium from all the others I tried.
| Bacillus subtilis in case you're wondering. During that time my
| then current microbiome would've been fighting with the newly
| introduced strains. After that, I was no longer lethargic and
| slowly but surely I was able to tolerate foods in normal
| quantities again. Leftover lasagna is just awesome now, like it
| should be!
|
| So yeah that's just a personal anecdote on how gut health can
| really eff up your life and health. So I can very well believe
| that people with a 'broken gut' would die more easily from
| COVID or get infected more easily with other things as well.
| But where's the money in simply fixing peoples guts? Isn't it
| 'better' if we make them sick, so we can then prescribe them
| stuff?
| Matrixik wrote:
| Thank you for mentioning Bacillus subtilis. Will look into it
| more.
| dashmeet wrote:
| What supplement/brand/company do you use?
| [deleted]
| samstave wrote:
| The question I have is how to evaluate the 'proper?' gut biome
| / fecal "recipe" to get the desired outcome?/Expression?
|
| So what characteristics would a good vs bad donor gut
| biome/fecal biome be?
| Bjartr wrote:
| > The question I have is how to evaluate the 'proper?' gut
| biome / fecal "recipe" to get the desired
| outcome?/Expression?
|
| You and the rest of the medical community. This is largely
| still an open question.
| [deleted]
| TeaDrunk wrote:
| tl;dr: In a proof-of-concept phase 2 trial, researchers
| transplanted gut bacteria from patients who responded
| extraordinarily strongly to immunotherapy into the gut of
| patients who are completely nonresponsive to the therapy. N = 15,
| with 6 people experiencing reduction of tumors or stabilization.
|
| It's definitely not a silver bullet... I feel like we still don't
| understand enough about the mechanisms surrounding the gut flora.
| This is flailing in the dark. Fingers crossed these results
| encourage more research into the biological chemistry behind
| this.
| ExcavateGrandMa wrote:
| Okay dudes, now you know what you have to do if you feeling short
| with money :D
|
| SELL YOUR FRESH CRAPs :D
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| When a possible link between gut biomes and disease progression
| was first proposed, the response by the established science was
| pretty harsh.
|
| That people studying these links persisted and have created many
| reproducible experiments that demonstrate the connection is a
| testament both to perseverance and to science.
|
| When people try to argue that science is "people making things
| up." as a reason for disbelieving science that challenges their
| beliefs, I use this example of fecal transplants as a real world
| case of how scientists challenge, confront, debate, and
| incorporate changes into their world views through process,
| review, and reproduction.
| quercusa wrote:
| Same story for bacteria and stomach ulcers.
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| And I know at least one researcher who started looking more
| deeply into the impact of the gut biome on health _because_
| of the demonstrated link between bacteria and ulcers.
|
| At some point, I would expect a fecal sample/biome to be part
| of one's periodic physical so that we could build a data set
| of biomes + medical history database that is a bit more
| comprehensive than the voluntary ones that exist today.
| mirekrusin wrote:
| Is that true? Hitler was doing it, so it must have been known
| for a while.
| LinuxBender wrote:
| I hope that some day they break down the science in this method
| to find the exact cultures that are providing benefit. Many
| performance athletes already use probiotics rectally and are said
| to gain advantages from doing so. I've only seen limited
| scientific papers on the topic and more often anecdotal responses
| from athletes. Well now I have a weekend research project.
| jlizzle30 wrote:
| As an anecdote, I'm close to someone who had issues w/ their
| microbiome causing havoc for a year after taking antibiotics.
| They tried all kinds of diet and probiotic treatments to no
| avail. In desperation, a doctor prescribed an experimental
| approach where they'd take antibiotics again to kill the 'bad
| bacteria', then go on a heavy probiotic regimen. This worked
| thank god.
| PointyFluff wrote:
| So awesome.
|
| So gross.
| tartoran wrote:
| I wonder if it could be simply inserted into the other end
| instead of being swallowed. Perhaps a suppository would do?
| byset wrote:
| Says in the writeup that the transplant is done "through
| colonoscopy" so it is "inserted in the other end", right?
|
| I have heard of fecal transplants being effective administered
| orally via capsule. Though that might be a bitter pill to
| swallow, I might prefer it to the other route...
| tartoran wrote:
| Sorry, I skimmed through and didn't get the colonoscopy part.
| I guess the bitter pill to swallow is no longer part of the
| practice though easier than a colonoscopy it was just
| grossing me out.
| im3w1l wrote:
| Is immunotherapy orally administered? Could it be simply changing
| the absorption efficiency?
| Vaslo wrote:
| I just can't even fathom having an original idea like this and
| then even more so having it work. Who thinks of this shit?
| fastball wrote:
| > Who thinks of this shit?
|
| Heh.
| poopcrusader wrote:
| There's been information about the power of FMT floating around
| out there for a while now.
|
| I'm convinced that pharmaceutical corporations have nothing to
| benefit from more effective treatments, which could largely be
| why we see smaller players doing these types of honorable and
| groundbreaking studies.
|
| One study I'd love to see is the effect of treated tap water on
| our microbiome. If tap water is designed to kill micro-
| organisms, what could it be doing inside us?
| feanaro wrote:
| Given that there's a large body of work detailing the
| importance of the gut microbiome, which has effects on
| everything from cognition to the immune system, it wasn't as
| huge a stretch as it might seem. Perhaps only when you're not
| aware of the incremental progress so it may seem as a huge
| leap.
| jb1991 wrote:
| The article states that an AI algorithm directed the
| researchers to gut bacteria.
| mechnesium wrote:
| Edit: Not medical advice.
|
| Cancer is largely a failure of the immune system, and it is well
| known that nearly 70% of the immune system lives in the digestive
| tract. Sometimes the microbiome in that digestive tract gets
| messed up, paving the way to bowel issues, autoimmune disorders,
| general illness, and cancer. Studies have even shown that poor
| gut health is linked to many mental health issues such as
| depression and autism. Populating the digestive tract with
| healthy microbes from another person is a good way to jumpstart
| it again.
|
| I've actually done probiotic and fecal transplant enemas at home
| and put my UC into remission without the need for steroidal or
| anti-inflammatory medications. It can be easily done using
| standard enema equipment, healthy donor stool, saline and oral
| loperamide to increase efficacy. Expect to be able to fill the
| rectum, ascending, transverse, and descending colon. There are
| big risks to this, especially if you are immunocompromised. Most
| people will want advice or support from a doctor.
| surfsvammel wrote:
| Careful. As someone with UC myself, I'd like to say, be careful
| promoting procedures like this. I've looked into this myself,
| quiet a bit, and although many studies show promise--as someone
| in this thread also previously said; we are not yet sure what
| is going on--it is not clear that poop transplants (especially
| administered at home by oneself) is safe.
|
| Don't do this yourself. Speak to your doctor.
| mechnesium wrote:
| Thanks. It's understandable that it's radical so I put a
| little note that I'm not offering medical advice.
| leptoniscool wrote:
| Wow that's amazing! One reason that I suspect these therapies
| aren't more widely used is the lack of funding. Big
| pharmaceutical companies have millions to spend on R&D and also
| fund studies.
| mechnesium wrote:
| Yeah. Admittedly, I was frustrated with having to rely on
| $1000+ a month prescriptions to treat my symptoms rather than
| the underlying cause. My venture into researching the human
| microbiome and homemade enemas was sprinkled with "danger"
| and "don't try this at home." Being riddled with daily bouts
| of diarrhea caused by my UC, I wasn't go to just sit idly by.
|
| Enema kits are sold in grocery stores and are perfectly safe
| if not used regularly. There was simply no reason for me to
| believe that breaking open some probiotic capsules or putting
| a little poop in that enema is going to kill me. More than
| likely, toxic megacolon or colon cancer is going to kill me
| if I didn't take the risk.
|
| I consider myself a body hacker, having experimented with
| nootropics for many years before. Hacking of any kind
| involves some level of risk, and it's risks that I'm willing
| to take to become better.
| hinkley wrote:
| Given all the weird shi... phrasing... stuff that has happened
| with performance enhancing drugs I have to wonder if there aren't
| some sports doctors out there who know a bit more about this
| stuff than they're letting on...
| billiam wrote:
| Will I now be obligated to yell at someone who cuts me off on the
| freeway "Eat sh%t and DON'T die?"
| crawdog wrote:
| There has been a recent paper published around treatment of
| melanoma cancer with positive results as well. Interesting to see
| how the research in this area progresses. Hopefully making more
| of these devastating cancers more treatable.
|
| https://science.sciencemag.org/content/371/6529/602
| djrogers wrote:
| Not sure if you read the linked article, but these appear to be
| the same study.
| crawdog wrote:
| My bad! Quickly glanced - you are correct.
| danans wrote:
| Now that's not too shitty an outcome!
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