[HN Gopher] Elon Musk admits Tesla car quality flaws, says mass ...
___________________________________________________________________
Elon Musk admits Tesla car quality flaws, says mass production is
"hell"
Author : CharlesW
Score : 41 points
Date : 2021-02-04 14:59 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.caradvice.com.au)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.caradvice.com.au)
| Enginerrrd wrote:
| One of the things I'm really perplexed about is the general
| criticism of Elon Musk over really candid statements. It's really
| refreshing to see someone just say something like this with
| honesty.
|
| He gets flak for when he posts things like this on twitter
| because "omg, the stonks!?" but I find the criticism more
| indicative of systemic problems with the fiduciary duties of
| publicly traded companies than something Elon is doing wrong.
| snowwrestler wrote:
| Musk comes in for criticism because he spends a lot time on
| condescending shit-talk about older competitors, and then part
| of the time talking about how hard it is to do things that
| those older competitors spent decades laboriously working out.
|
| Like, yeah, who knew mass-producing quality cars was way harder
| than it looks at first? How about the millions of people who've
| been doing it for a century?
| rblatz wrote:
| But they built their moat and got lazy behind it. It should
| be even easier for the legacy manufacturers to innovate
| because they figured out the hard stuff in scaling already.
| snowwrestler wrote:
| This is the sort of condescending stuff Musk likes to say.
|
| What, specifically, is the moat that they are behind? Auto
| manufacturing is one of the leanest and most competitive
| industries in the world.
|
| If they "got lazy" how come many manufacturers are still
| better than Tesla at basic fit and finish and hardware
| reliability? Do we suppose that Tesla is even lazier? (I
| don't think that Tesla is lazy at all; I'm pointing out the
| flaw in using "laziness" as a metric.)
|
| A car is a collection of many things. Musk properly
| understands the impact of Tesla's electric drivetrain. He
| underestimated the sustained difficulty of manufacturing
| the rest of the physical car at scale, just like you are.
|
| It's tempting to look around the world at things as they
| are, and think that they must be easy since they're already
| happening. People have been building cars for 100 years!
| How hard can it be? The truth is, a lot of what we take for
| granted in life is delivered through continuous effort
| against sustained difficulties.
|
| Tesla is certainly not the only carmaker who struggles with
| automation and quality. Musk does seem like the only
| carmaker CEO who is regularly surprised that those things
| are hard.
| Delphiza wrote:
| One part of the moat has to be the dealership laws, where
| the incumbent manufacturers created a false barrier to
| entry. There is nothing lean or optimal about legislating
| that competitors have an arbitrary number of brick and
| mortar locations. There are probably others in such an
| established and complex market.
| buzzerbetrayed wrote:
| The "laziness" clearly is not referring to manufacture
| quality. Obviously they are great at that. It's referring
| to the fact that a brand new ICE vehicle from 2021 looks
| exactly like a brand new ICE vehicle from 1990, with the
| addition of a backup camera, volume control on the
| steering wheel, and Carplay/Android Auto (which the car
| people didn't even invent).
|
| Obviously I'm being slightly facetious, but surely nobody
| can be impressed with the innovation of car companies
| over the past 30 years.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| You forgot the innovation of a $1700 GPS that is less
| usable than a $200 garmin, much less google maps.
| rblatz wrote:
| The moat is a few things, but most relevant to this
| conversation is manufacturing consistent quality vehicles
| at scale. Tesla has spent a ton of time trying to solve
| that, but people look past it because Tesla builds cars
| people want that aren't being built by the legacy
| automotive industry. Weird, people want an electric car
| that doesn't look like a dork-mobile who could have
| guessed. These companies are being dragged kicking and
| screaming into the future, and the best retort is
| inconsistent panel gaps.
| edmundsauto wrote:
| Innovators dilemma, it's hard to be innovative as well as
| optimized.
| silexia wrote:
| I agree, we need to encourage people in power to be honest! Too
| many aren't, especially public company CEO's. I know lots of
| these guys and what they say on the golf course is totally
| different than what they say publicly.
| user-the-name wrote:
| He gets flak because he says a lot of things that are quite
| shitty.
| ASalazarMX wrote:
| I must admit his current tweets about Dogecoin seem weird.
| He's literally shitposting, and some people will take it
| seriously and buy Dogecoins with real money instead of mining
| them.
| happytoexplain wrote:
| He gets flak for his occasional cavalier statements and mocking
| tone, which is just a realistic reaction to expect from humans.
| Sure, there are those who dislike him in the typical shallow
| context where people take on team-sports attitudes about
| business and society, and we may argue about which source of
| criticism is more prevalent, but it's too easy to say that it's
| because he's "candid", "honest", etc. Those are common
| fallacious defenses for antagonistic behavior (and fits into
| the team-sports portion of attitudes).
| duxup wrote:
| I feel like the folks who have a reputation along the lines for
| "just tells it like it is" are just as likely to make some
| horrible / wrong statements as well.
|
| It seems like the impulse to just speak some blunt truth is as
| likely to be off the target as on.
| kop316 wrote:
| To offer a counterpoint, I agree I like the honestly, but I
| will ask (I genuinely don't know): what does Tesla do about it?
|
| So say I buy a Tesla, and I have some sort of manufacturing
| issue. Can I go to a Tesla service station to have it fixed?
| (Once again, I genuinely don't know, and I am curious
| actually).
|
| If they are taking steps to fix it, I would applaud them as
| well, but I would not be happy to spend money on a Tesla, have
| an issue, and have these sorts of issues awknowledged, but then
| be stuck with said issue.
| jsight wrote:
| Yes, though the service experience varies about as much as if
| you were dealing with car dealers.
| secabeen wrote:
| Generally, it depends on the level of the issue and how long
| you've owned the car. The car comes with warranties that last
| between 4 and 10 years, depending on the part. They should
| cover this sort of thing. Issues that can compromise
| passenger safety are subject to recalls, and do not have a
| time limit.
|
| Tesla runs service centers and dealerships across their sales
| area.
| alexrson wrote:
| In my experience there were two manufacturing issues with my
| car and they came to my location and fixed them for free.
| Obviously, it would better to not have them in the first
| place and I can't speak to the full set of issues people have
| had.
| kop316 wrote:
| That's comforting to hear that they do address the issues.
| spaetzleesser wrote:
| I agree. He is pretty honest which is a good thing.
|
| I think the problem is that the general trend is to put people
| either into the "good" or "bad" category in total. This doesn't
| allow to recognize that people are flawed and do some good and
| some bad things. Instead people want to perceive them as always
| good or always bad.
|
| You see the same in politics. A politician does 10 things of
| which you make like some and not like others. But a lot of
| partisans bend their minds to like everything a certain
| politician does or hate everything he does.
| totalZero wrote:
| > He is pretty honest
|
| _" funding secured"_
|
| _" pedo guy"_
| Analemma_ wrote:
| "Full self-driving coming soon"
| thomaskcr wrote:
| He said on an earnings call just a couple years ago that when
| he did the Toyota factory tour things were moving like granny
| on a walker slow and you would need a strobe light to see how
| fast the Tesla machines were moving and they were needing to
| account for air friction. He deserves more than the criticism
| he gets but he is surrounded by people enabling him and
| journalists have been uncritically reporting the things he
| says.
|
| The majority of articles about the Nevada factory still use the
| fake render of that factory rather than any actual images as
| just one example of the enablement of the lies and fantasy
| around the company.
| falcolas wrote:
| So, do something about it?
|
| Take advice from Toyota, and stop your production lines when
| something's wrong. If the same thing is wrong again and again,
| fix it instead of just churning out terrible looking vehicles and
| hoping your customers don't care.
|
| To quote my mom, "Whining about it won't fix it."
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| The problems in the video have been fixed. That's what made it
| easy for Elon to admit to them.
| itomato wrote:
| How many cars went down the line with paint that wasn't dry?
| Schiendelman wrote:
| How much did it affect the value of the business or number
| of customers?
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| Short term? None, since they're production constrained.
| Long term, reputation is king.
| falcolas wrote:
| <rant>
|
| Yes, because the immediate value and pending sales
| numbers are the _only_ metrics that matter. Reputation,
| repeat business, and the company health beyond the
| existing sales pipeline appear to mean nothing anymore.
|
| </rant>
| kop316 wrote:
| This reminds me of something that happened to my brother's Tesla
| the last time I saw him. He purchased a new Tesla about a year
| ago.
|
| He normally lives in an area where winter temps are at a low of
| 40 F (~5 C). He came to visit, an I live in an area where
| temperatures routinely go above and below the freezing point of
| water. I also live in a very humid environmant (close to a large
| body of water).
|
| My brother plugged in his Tesla overnight to charge, and the
| morning he was suppoed to leave, the charger would not come out.
| After after 15 minutes of searching online for a fix, it turns
| out that it is surprisngly common that the charger was frozen
| into the charger! Thankfully, we had a hair dryer and were able
| to unfreeze it.
|
| I share this story because I an frankly surprised that for buying
| a new tesla, something like that was not tested and/or accounted
| for, and frankly makes me worry about buying one, because I
| wonder what else they do not test/account for.
| [deleted]
| jsight wrote:
| Watch Bjorn's videos and you'll see that it certainly isn't
| confined to Tesla. Newer models have heated charge ports. With
| older vehicles, preconditioning the cabin for ~30 minutes
| supposedly helps.
| kop316 wrote:
| Are you referring to https://www.youtube.com/user/bjornnyland
| ?
| apearson wrote:
| Yes
| michaelmior wrote:
| Interesting. I live in a similar climate with fluctuating
| temperatures and I haven't had this issue but maybe the
| charge port on my PHEV is heated and I didn't realize. I have
| had the problem though where sometimes the charge port door
| is frozen shut during cold temperatures.
| Solocomplex wrote:
| It's a car company from California, not Detroit.
| Teever wrote:
| A lot of people don't seem to know this but California is a
| vast state with practically every single kind of climate and
| an incredible range in altitude.
|
| I don't have enough experience in California to say just how
| cold it gets in some parts but it certainly does snow in
| mountainous areas.
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| Engineering centers are not close to these areas though.
| kop316 wrote:
| I'm confused on the point you are making?
|
| What I am getting out of your comment is that their weather
| doesn't go below freezing (which as a sister comment pointed
| out, California has plenty of places that are cold and
| snowy), which was my point. They don't have a test plan to
| include testing their cars for regular usage (I would think
| plugging in a car charger outside of a garage qualifies as
| normal usage) in weather conditions that a significant
| portion of the US population in fact have (weather conditions
| below freezing and humidity), but such weather conditions are
| not in their area.
|
| What else is their test plan missing then?
| ALittleLight wrote:
| Another interpretation is that Detroit (historical city of
| American car manufacturers) may have the
| legacy/institutional knowledge to build and test such edge
| cases whereas new Tesla does not.
| dragontamer wrote:
| https://jalopnik.com/tesla-finally-admits-model-3-bumpers-
| fa...
|
| https://cleantechnica.com/2019/07/06/tesla-rolls-out-uv-
| ligh...
|
| https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/319722-tesla-will-
| recall...
| wflann wrote:
| Are engineers more thorough and thoughtful in Michigan?
| aynyc wrote:
| I feel Elon's style of thinking is really at odds with matured
| mass manufacturing space. Iterative software development is hard
| to translate to mass physical products with consumers. Elon uses
| iterative process with SpaceX with great success, but it's not
| translating well to Tesla.
| Schiendelman wrote:
| Tesla is in the top ten most valuable companies in the world.
| I'm not sure why you think that process is "not translating
| well".
| aynyc wrote:
| This post is about quality of the vehicles. Tesla isn't there
| yet, comparing to say Toyota/Honda/Lexus.
| carlmr wrote:
| Also the stock price at this point is entirely decoupled
| from profitability.
| omginternets wrote:
| Perhaps the market currently overvalues Tesla?
|
| This isn't a very convincing argument.
| ALittleLight wrote:
| Isn't it a more convincing argument than someone just
| commenting "it's not translating well". I see Teslas on the
| street every day. I've driven a Tesla. The next car I buy
| is going to be a Tesla.
|
| I don't know if the market evaluation is right or wrong but
| Musk is clearly making cars that many people like. Hard for
| me to see how that is a bad translation.
| totalZero wrote:
| None of this has to do with whether the iterative
| approach to vehicle manufacturing is going well.
|
| (Enjoy your future Tesla.)
| omginternets wrote:
| Claim: "Tesla's approach to manufacturing results in
| high-quality cars."
|
| You are replacing "high-quality cars" with "a successful
| business", and then responding in the affirmative.
|
| I'm assuming this is because you misread the subject of
| the debate.
| babesh wrote:
| Here is a distillation of various Tesla commentary I have seen,
| heard, and read.
|
| Tesla made some mistakes, some due to hubris, some due to speed,
| some due to the newness of EVs.
|
| Their emphasis is on speed since their mission is accelerating
| sustainable energy. That results in rapid iteration to reduce
| cost and simplify production. All those changes result in
| deviance but also improvements. The speed helps them quickly fix
| novel problems.
|
| So you get panel gaps in some cars as they change and fix
| processes but you also get improved range due to the lighter rear
| casting. You get paint defects in some cars as they speed up the
| production line and don't initially notice that it decreased
| drying time. You also get cheaper cars since they can produce
| more cars in the same time. You get a rattling heat pump that
| they subsequently insulate but you also get better range
| especially in cold weather.
|
| This is why he said that if you want perfection, you either get
| an early car (since they will be inspected thoroughly) or you get
| a car at the end after all processes have stabilized. What should
| theoretically be happening all along the way though is a car that
| is overall better than competition since it is being much more
| rapidly improved (and with Tesla learning along the way). It's up
| to each consumer to decide.
| totalZero wrote:
| Their emphasis is on speed because shareholders care about
| vehicle deliveries and guidance[0], and their net income
| depends on the sale of regulatory credits that are granted when
| Tesla sells a car in a ZEV state[1].
|
| [0]https://www.fool.com/investing/2021/01/27/tesla-earnings-
| tod...
|
| [1]https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1318605/000119312510
| ...
| LatteLazy wrote:
| Teslas great challenge was always innovating and mass producing
| AT THE SAME TIME. plenty of companies do one or the other. Very
| few can do both.
| sschueller wrote:
| Aren't these Problems that have been solved a long ago by other
| car companies?
| ohdannyboy wrote:
| Car manufacturers learned these lessons incrementally over
| decades while their competitors were doing the same. Tesla
| finds themself being inexperienced in a market where the
| established players are really good.
|
| As an aside, car companies actually consult for others
| industries because they're so good at manufacturing. When I
| worked for a big defense/aerospace company I got a tour of
| their satellite assembly and they actually paid Honda to come
| in and improve their manufacturing pipeline. They claim the
| changes sped them up and lowered bugs found after
| manufacturing.
| cjdell wrote:
| Yes, but many car companies are 100 years older than Tesla.
|
| They'll probably be going through growing pains for years to
| come. Rapid expansion at the cost of quality. However, they
| clearly don't have a demand problem as people are willing to
| tolerate these issues, for now.
| Alupis wrote:
| Tesla famously turned down help from Volkswagen and other
| major manufacturers.
|
| Instead, preferring to reinvent manufacturing, one poorly
| assembled $75,000 car at a time.
| cjdell wrote:
| No one's forcing you to buy one. Let them try other
| manufacturing techniques to see if it goes anywhere.
|
| Besides, the quality issues are mostly cosmetic,
| structurally the cars are very sound. Look at crash test
| data if you don't believe me.
| Alupis wrote:
| When you purchase a $75,000 car, there's a reasonable
| expectation basic, basic things like body panels will be
| aligned correctly[1][2][3]. You're not buying a prototype
| nor experimental vehicle - it's a full fledged production
| vehicle priced at an extreme premium.
|
| Some of Tesla's vehicles are priced to compete with
| Porsche, high end Mercedes, high end BMW's, Land Rover's,
| etc. The things all those car manufacturers have in
| common is quality fit-and-finish on their expensive
| vehicles.
|
| When your brand new vehicle has mis-aligned body panels -
| it does make you wonder what else is mis-aligned that you
| can't see...
|
| Body panels being mis-aligned isn't some new
| manufacturing technique Tesla is experimenting with -
| that's just plain shoddy workmanship and a total lack of
| quality control. You cannot just hand-wave those issues
| away, particularly at the price point Tesla has
| maneuvered into for even their less expensive offerings.
|
| [1] https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/pre-delivery-
| panel-gap...
|
| [2] https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/body-panel-
| alignment...
|
| [3] https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/panel-mis-
| alignment-...
| Isinlor wrote:
| Tesla is addressing these issues with metal casting cars
| in big pieces. If you watch the interview the issues are
| supposedly due to accumulation of errors on small parts.
| Metal casting will eliminate all these errors. They
| already do that on Model Y. They just don't have enough
| operational capacity to roll it out across all
| manufacturing lines according to Elon.
|
| If you watch tear down by Sandy you can compare old Model
| 3 manufacturing and the new Model 3 manufacturing. There
| is a lot of changes in welding techniques, amount of
| welds etc. everything gets simplified and more
| streamlined. With one piece casts as the final goal.
| Alupis wrote:
| I'm still not seeing a reason why mis-aligned body panels
| ever left the factory. New process or not... some person
| bolted it on incorrectly, then allowed it to go out to
| the customer.
|
| Are we to believe Tesla has zero QC? How do things like
| this occur? These are all solved problems companies like
| VW figured out decades and decades ago... Tesla is just
| insisting on figuring them out on their own all over
| again.
| carlmr wrote:
| Yeah, I mean Elon refused to learn from the best.
|
| It's not like there are hundreds of books on the Toyota
| Production System. It's not even a secret. He had to
| actively ignore it.
|
| https://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2018/02/16/tesla
| -th...
| spectrum1234 wrote:
| Except that there most commonly sold car is half that, plus
| maybe $500. Then if you factor in cost of ownership, which
| its crazy not too, subtract another $5000 or so.
| mikestew wrote:
| My Nissan Leaf cost even less than that. It was one of
| the first off the line, too; built after they swept all
| the tsunami debris out of the factory. The body panels
| line up just fine. Best not get me started on our $15K
| Scion's quality in comparison.
| Alupis wrote:
| Their most commonly sold car is still a very expensive
| car (around $40,000 after all the dust has settled).
|
| You can buy a $20,000 car and still expect body panels to
| be aligned correctly.
|
| These quality issues Tesla is having are the absolute
| basics for automotive manufacturing. There's no
| reasonable excuse here...
| offtop5 wrote:
| Tesla owners tend to be higher income individuals, I.E
| you have the Kia to get to and from work, and the Tesla
| when you want to be cool.
| bgirard wrote:
| If you, like myself, prefer value and quality issue like
| body panel alignment then I agree, stay away from Telsa
| for now.
|
| But it's subjective. I have friends that prefer an EVs
| with tech gadgets. And they're happy with their Telsa.
|
| Feels like an efficient market to me. There's lot of car
| options at different price points and quality standards.
| Clearly a lot of Tesla's customer are happy with their
| offering.
| Gravityloss wrote:
| Every model of every car company has lots of unique problems
| in very mundane areas where development has stagnated decades
| ago and most models of manufacturers never experience any
| problems. This is mind boggling - the problem has been solved
| by the industry, yet it was chosen to be introduced to that
| model.
|
| The same exists with buildings. Door and window placement is
| messed up all the time, despite being a few millenia old art.
|
| It seems fields never really mature, they reach maybe some
| 90% level and can stay there at best. No problem is ever
| really solved. If you look away, it might actually get worse.
| Jimmc414 wrote:
| Before Tesla, the last successful American car company was Jeep
| in 1941. Tesla is catching up but obviously things take time.
| new_realist wrote:
| Rivian will likely show Tesla how it's supposed to be done.
| waiseristy wrote:
| Rivian wants to emulate Tesla in many many ways. I think in
| order to break the mold, they gotta stop worshipping the
| mold
| rblatz wrote:
| I know a couple guys that went over to Rivian I hope they
| do well, but I'm just not at all excited about the company
| or it's products. They may show up to the ball too late.
| QuixoticQuibit wrote:
| Well if you listen to some Tesla fanatics including boss man
| Elon himself, traditional car companies carry too much baggage
| from their ICE platforms to transition to EVs successfully, so
| all this "experience" they have is a net drag.
|
| Meanwhile outside the Tesla/Musk bubble, traditional car
| companies do not have QC issues like Tesla's and are even
| outselling Tesla in major EV markets like Europe.
|
| At least Musk is finally admitting to the QC issues.
| Isinlor wrote:
| Tesla is competing on European market with 10% tariffs.
|
| Wait for cars made in Giga Berlin that will be exempted from
| tariffs.
| rad_gruchalski wrote:
| Tariffs have nothing to do with quality.
| Isinlor wrote:
| "and are even outselling Tesla in major EV markets like
| Europe."
|
| They are because among other things Tesla has 10%
| tariffs.
| rad_gruchalski wrote:
| I'm looking forward to European clients storming Tesla
| for German manufactured Teslas.
| africanboy wrote:
| Tesla is not the only EV car on the market anymore.
|
| The top selling EV in Europe in 2020 was the Renault Zoe,
| Volkswagen is catching up fast (they sold 56k ID 3 despite
| only going on sale in the second half of last year VS 85k
| Model 3 over 12 months), Tesla model 3 was second, but
| numbers are dropping.
|
| If we are talking about quality, I think the new BMW and
| Mercedes will take the lead in the segment Tesla is being
| marketed right now.
|
| Tesla numbers are good thanks to Norway buying a lot of
| them.
| Isinlor wrote:
| Starting price of Renault ZOE is 30 490 euro vs. Tesla
| Model 3 is 48 000 euro.
|
| The fact that Model 3 is second only to a car almost half
| the price is kind of crazy.
|
| And Tesla will probably drop this price by some 5000 euro
| as soon as they will start production at Giga Berlin.
|
| Also, this decade will not be about EV vs. ICE. It will
| be about self-driving.
|
| My guess is that Tesla will have robotaxis driving all
| around the world somewhere after 2025, but before 2030.
|
| Traditional car companies have no expertise in software
| as they themselves admit.
| legolas2412 wrote:
| > My guess is that Tesla will have robotaxis driving all
| around the world somewhere after 2025, but before 2030.
|
| Just like how they had a cross country summon in 2017,
| coast to coast drive in 2018, and tesla network
| "robotaxis" by 2019 already?
| africanboy wrote:
| Zoe starts at EUR 38.900 in Italy the 77KWh is EUR 48.900
|
| You are probably not accounting for VAT
|
| AFAIK self driving as in unattended driving is not big in
| Europe, given that most of the driving happens in crowded
| cities and country roads.
|
| Self driving is welcome on highways, but almost any
| modern car have some kind of auto pilot system that works
| well enough.
|
| > Traditional car companies have no expertise in software
| as they themselves admit.
|
| That's simply not true anymore.
|
| All manufacturers are working on it, Honda will release a
| level 3 at the end of March this year, Tesla is a level 2
| (if I am not wrong)
|
| p.s. I am from Italy
| Isinlor wrote:
| Dutch website is claiming that Renault Zoe R110 Life
| costs 33 590 [0]. Seems like I've missed 3500 subsidy
| from Dutch government.
|
| Nobody is able to do true self driving like a taxi in
| city today. But it will be possible in this decade (I
| have 95% confidence) and it will be happening in Europe
| as well. Whoever achieves true, reliable, widely deployed
| self-driving first will crash competition. Car ownership
| will effectively disappear in the decade after that i.e.
| 2030 and later.
|
| [0] https://www.renault.nl/elektrische-autos/zoe.html
| africanboy wrote:
| > Car ownership will effectively disappear in the next
| decade i.e. 2030 and later
|
| as a former car owner that has been car-free for 7 years
| (using only car sharing and short term rentals) I
| sincerely hope you're right.
|
| Note that the subsidies can be up to 10k here in Italy,
| but that's true for Tesla as well.
| Schiendelman wrote:
| I don't think it's useful to say traditional car companies
| are outselling Tesla in Europe; they're selling a differently
| positioned vehicle. It's like Android to Apple - $200 Android
| phones aren't "outselling" $1000 Apple phones in a lower
| income market.
| orev wrote:
| Iteration on actual real products and factories takes a long
| time. I think people who mostly deal with software forget that
| very easily.
| screye wrote:
| Not really. I worked in the production line of an automobile
| company as a mech engineer.
|
| When we release new cars, there are huge production line issues
| and inefficiencies. There are a huge number of little things
| that add up, and most of this wisdom is held by people who have
| been these companies for a life time.
|
| I am surprised that Tesla hasn't acqui-hired a smaller
| automobile company just for knowledge transfer.
| hasbot wrote:
| To increase the likelihood of getting a reliable car, is it
| best to buy a model that hasn't been updated in a year or
| two?
| screye wrote:
| 100%. The version-1 of a new car refresh always has some
| issue. Especially if it is an entirely new engine,
| transmission, that sort of thing.
|
| Now-a-days, they pretty much take parts from higher-end /
| niche cars, and put them in production vehicles. In such
| cases, a car that's a Frankenstein's monster of generally
| reliable parts will usually be reliable, even in a version
| 1.
|
| But if it is brand new, brand new...you might want to be
| cautious. Especially if it is a convertible or a car in a
| new segment that they didn't cater to before.
|
| Lastly, some sub-brands are too important to tarnish even
| in a version 1. Civic, Corolla, Rav4, Wrangler and similar
| bread-and-butter models go through significantly higher
| scrutiny and are generally safe to buy in any version.
| foxyv wrote:
| Not really, older car companies just make the same cars over
| and over again with slightly changed designs. They have decades
| of iteration on their designs and any major changes always end
| up having problems. Even then they have iterated into cheap
| junk for the most part aside from a few automakers. Plus,
| anything software related on these cars is horrible stinking
| garbage. Check any car older than 5 years and there will be 1-2
| recalls on them.
|
| Tesla is pretty much going through the same thing all
| automakers go through except it's "Tesla." Sure if they hired a
| few engineers out of retirement to consult they could have
| identified a few of these issues, but then they wouldn't have
| released before the balloon went up and the bulls gored them.
|
| Generally, this isn't Tesla's biggest problem. Delivery,
| support, and maintenance are the big ones they are losing out
| on. That's what's making this recall such a big issue for them.
| They didn't have enough dealers to make repairs or spare parts
| which is why they are dragging their heels on recalls. But they
| are catching up there as well in typical Tesla fashion.
|
| Sure they will piss off a few car owners, but people tend to be
| REALLY loyal to car brands. Just ask any Porsche owner who
| spends more time at the mechanic than on the road.
| carlmr wrote:
| >They have decades of iteration on their designs and any
| major changes always end up having problems.
|
| Even new designs have better fit and finish. The old
| automakers do know more about manufacturing.
|
| Software is another issue though.
| Shivetya wrote:
| Well you would think they were solved by the way people react
| to Tesla however just reviewing NHTSA records and enthusiast
| forums you will see manufacturers have all sorts of issues
| which includes fires and more.
|
| This does not excuse Tesla, I do own a model 3 from September
| 2018 and still find it a great car, but the idea that other
| manufacturers don't have problems is ludicrous. Ford had to
| issue a STOP SALE on Mach E because of issues.
|
| Tesla has introduced so many innovations from OTA which other
| manufacturers will have to adapt to as well remote vehicle
| services which for the most part you cannot get elsewhere. VW
| suffered a lot of issues on this, their software stack is
| apparently really a mess.
|
| https://fordauthority.com/2021/01/ford-issues-mustang-mach-e...
| Someone wrote:
| I think other car companies prioritize shipping cars over
| shipping good cars differently.
|
| It helps that they have money that allows them to delay
| shipping one of their models, if needed.
| brmgb wrote:
| Most definitely and everyone knew Tesla was going to suffer
| from the manufacturing side of things. They went at it with the
| wrong attitude while it's by far the hardest part of being a
| car company pushing large volume.
|
| Where I was wrong is that I thought the market would punish
| them heavily for that as customers for a car in this price
| range would care. I totally missed that the segment of rich
| people with enough disposable income to buy an average electric
| car as a statement was big enough to be viable. So, well played
| Tesla I guess.
| samfisher83 wrote:
| It takes time and effort and learning to do that.
| new_realist wrote:
| Funny, Volkswagen's ID.3 is on a completely new platform and has
| ramped without hardware problems. Their software, however, was
| delayed.
| space_rock wrote:
| Just watch the interview they used as source. Reading these
| articles is mostly noise and forcing a narrative
|
| https://youtu.be/YAtLTLiqNwg
| JamesCoyne wrote:
| The video this article sources is here:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAtLTLiqNwg
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2021-02-04 23:02 UTC)