[HN Gopher] Bluetooth Trackball Mark II
___________________________________________________________________
Bluetooth Trackball Mark II
Author : mbreese
Score : 384 points
Date : 2021-02-03 03:22 UTC (19 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (blog.jfedor.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (blog.jfedor.org)
| slezyr wrote:
| This might be used as a replacement for a SpaceMouse[1] and
| control Blender3D as in this video[2].
|
| 1: https://3dconnexion.com/ua/product/spacemouse-wireless/
|
| 2: https://youtu.be/wGx4T8OH10Y?t=44
| ipsum2 wrote:
| SpaceMouse has a Z-axis (lifting the knob up), which is really
| useful to zoom in and out of a 3d model. That can't be captured
| with just IMUs.
| bondarchuk wrote:
| What if you count rotation around the vertical axis? I have a
| kensington trackball where that is how you scroll.
| codetrotter wrote:
| Then you can no longer rotate, unless you make it rotate
| when you push some additional button. The 3DConnexion
| devices have 6 degrees of freedom without pushing any
| additional buttons. That being said I have a SpaceNavigator
| and I don't use it, it's just sitting in a drawer and I use
| my regular mouse and keyboard even in Blender.
| bambax wrote:
| Makes me wonder if it would make sense to have rotary encoders
| for precision work -- something that would work like in an Etch
| A Sketch. The pointer could be positionned with great accuracy
| and wouldn't move by accident.
|
| It may not be too hard to make a prototype with an Arduino. Or
| maybe somebody already tried it?
| faeyanpiraat wrote:
| imagine playing counter strike with that
| jackyinger wrote:
| This is really cool.
|
| It could easily be taken to the next level of miniaturization by
| building a custom PCB to integrate all of the components. I bet a
| 1.5" diameter would be achievable!
|
| Edit: Simple PCB fabric services are very cheap these days.
| z5h wrote:
| Excellent work, I'm very impressed.
|
| Having said that, I've experienced RSI in the past with several
| pointing devices (mice are the worst for me), and trackballs. I
| actually find the touchpad on Mac laptops to be nearly the least
| aggravating option (the best being my old Fingerworks iGesture
| Pad).
|
| Do many people suffer from the Apple trackpad or find it
| unusable?
| alanbernstein wrote:
| I started having wrist pain recently. After trying a few tilted
| mouse options, I realized a better solution is to use a Mac
| standalone touch pad, and mount it on a tilt. That's the best
| solution I've found so far.
| [deleted]
| lowdose wrote:
| Maybe someone can hack it to a uncatchable dog toy.
| hombre_fatal wrote:
| I do wonder how long I could interest my cat with a small solid
| sphere that will periodically roll. And play dead while in the
| cat's death embrace.
| 5tefan wrote:
| Trackball for 20 years now exclusively. I like it. Can imagine it
| is a little unstable. It's rather high. I like the idea to have
| the keys separate from the trackball. Drag and drop for example
| can put some strain on my wrist.
| isoprophlex wrote:
| Whoa! What a great idea, makes total sense once you see it.
|
| Maybe there's a possibility to build squeeze-to-click? Finger
| squeeze for click, press down with your palm for right click?
| ptman wrote:
| Why would you need more than one mouse button? /s
| andai wrote:
| And fondle gently for middle click.
| isoprophlex wrote:
| Apple iBalls, with contextual rubbing!
| gedy wrote:
| That's really brilliant, I'm a big trackball fan since the 90s.
| nerdwaller wrote:
| This project and concept is really awesome.
|
| However for me - I've never found one that has everything I
| want, and I haven't taken the time to try to make it yet.
| However I really want the Logitech marble mouse with a scroll
| wheel. If I could have that combination I'd be pretty elated.
| tyingq wrote:
| There's a Kensington trackball where you spin a ring for
| scrollwheel: https://images-na.ssl-images-
| amazon.com/images/I/81T0oXLJoBL...
| comboy wrote:
| Kensington expert mouse has that. I use it, it's the best I
| found but its still far from great. The way the ring spins
| feels as you were moving plastic over plastic without any
| bearings - which is actually what's happening.
|
| Btw I think your picture is a Slimblade model in which you
| have to rotate the ball.
|
| Logitech Ergo MX is fine, it's built much better but
| Kensigton design is superior. It's not possible to be that
| accurate with a thumb and you also move slower because of a
| smaller ball. With KEM you can be fast and accurate. And
| scroll design is great, just badly implemented.
| _flux wrote:
| I like Elecom HUGE and I've bound the rightmost button
| (so the fifth) so that when holding it the trackball
| works as vertical and horizontal scroll wheel. Works
| great for scrolling large areas, though there's still the
| regular scroll wheel with side-ways switches for perhaps
| more precise maneuvers.
| comboy wrote:
| Do you only use index finger to operate it? Or can it be
| operated with 2-3 fingers given its shape? I mean the
| ball.
| _flux wrote:
| Maybe 3 fingers more often than 2.
| the_pwner224 wrote:
| You can use 2-3 fingers. I'm not parent poster but for me
| the elecom deft pro was better than the huge; huge was
| just too big. It can also be operated with 2-3 fingers.
| Uberphallus wrote:
| Exactly, Expert Mouse = ring, Slimblade = the ball
| itself.
|
| In Slimblade you can scroll from your neutral hand
| position, that's what sells it to me.
|
| I've owned a Slimblade for 10 years, have tried all sorts
| of trackballs, and I can't imagine anything better for
| daily use.
|
| I got the KEM for work, but requiring hand adjustment to
| scroll feels like a definite step back, so I sent it back
| and ordered a second Slimblade instead.
| nerdwaller wrote:
| I had that one for a bit, it felt really low quality and
| not very comfortable (at least for my hand shape).
| pimlottc wrote:
| Have you tried the Logitech MX Ergo? It's got a scroll wheel
| and lots of buttons. It can also pair with two devices which
| is really handy for switching between work and home machines.
| bjoli wrote:
| The Logitech Marble is not thumb-controlled, which is
| probably what OP is looking for.
|
| I use the Logitech, and it is amazing. The only downside is
| that I haven't figured out how to separate "ball scrolling"
| from the scroll wheel under Linux. Ball scrolling and wheel
| scrolling are interpreted as the same key input, meaning if
| you set wheel sideways to anything else than "scroll
| sideways" if you want to use a "button+ball" scroll as
| well.
| taeric wrote:
| If you are mostly at a desk, I can't recommend the
| rollermouse enough. Love this thing.
| so_dewy wrote:
| Rollermouse is great in all aspects but clicking - its very
| pronounced. After a while I started to have unpleasant
| feeling in my joints up to elbows on every click. Maybe
| it's because I have an old model. Regardless it's the only
| thing I can use to work right now I recommend people with
| RSI to try it.
| taeric wrote:
| Agreed that clicking via the bar takes getting used to.
| Actually, agreed that clicking at all takes getting used
| to.
|
| The ridiculous stability of where the device is, is
| amazing. I could wish it had a method to self center.
| matsemann wrote:
| Second that. When I started exploring, I felt most
| ergonomic stuff had some drawbacks. A thumb mouse /
| trackball mouse is _really_ imprecise even after long time
| use, compared to a standard mouse. A vertical mouse is
| still just a mouse, which takes time (and elbow pain) to
| move the hand to and from the keyboard.
|
| A rollermouse, though. Don't have to move my wrists at all.
| It's fairly precise after just a day of getting used to it.
| It got a scroll-wheel, 5 buttons for right-click or
| whatever. I'm a huge fan.
| askvictor wrote:
| I use a logitech trackman marble, and configure one of the
| buttons to be a scroll modifier; when it's held down, ball
| movement acts as a scroll wheel. Might not be exactly what
| you need (can't use normal mouse movement and scroll at same
| time), but works for me
| darkmuck wrote:
| I've been using this mouse for over 10 years! I do the
| something similar for scrolling except I use the app
| MarbleScroll which makes scrolling a lot easier on Windows
| at least. I wish this mouse had a dedicated scroll wheel.
| tyrust wrote:
| I do the same. Here are the docs I used to configure it: ht
| tps://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Logitech_Marble_Mouse#S.
| ..
| nerdwaller wrote:
| That's the same one I use, it really is the most
| comfortable one I have found after trying a good number of
| them.
|
| I remember not being able to use the scroll modifier as a
| back button as well (something else I struggle to live
| without) but looking more into it - it looks like that's
| either an incorrect memory or no longer true!
| gedy wrote:
| I felt same after using one for 20 years, finally found
| Elecom Deft Pro which feels quite good:
| https://www.amazon.com/Trackball-M-DPT1MRXBK-Bluetooth-
| High-...
| nerdwaller wrote:
| This one looks really promising, thank you for sharing it!
| gedy wrote:
| FYI there's a wireless version as well
| nicwest wrote:
| Have you tried the trackballs formerly known as "Clearly
| Superior" now "Xtrac" apparently[1]. I like the physical
| scroll wheel and dedicated middle mouse button, the internals
| are mechanical not optical (I have had problems with
| kensingtons in this regard), and there are some fairly
| alluring foot peddle expansion ports on the back that I've
| not played with yet.
|
| if you do go down this route, I would suggest avoiding a
| model with an LED in it. while it looks cool for sure the LED
| is positioned so that shines right in your eyes if you put
| the device front and center (like in between a split
| keyboard).
|
| [1]: https://xkeys.com/xkeys/trackballs.html
| nmaggioni wrote:
| Great execution, and the author's blog has a bunch of other very
| interesting HID-related posts.
| jrmg wrote:
| This is awesome!
|
| You should collaborate with this guy on Reddit who made a
| trackball sanding rig:
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/functionalprint/comments/ko2vvs/i_d...
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/functionalprint/comments/kptk0h/ver...
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/functionalprint/comments/l0g8ml/fin...
|
| for his custom trackballs:
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/knkcnx...
| hombre_fatal wrote:
| > I can only imagine your google searches during the gestation
| period of this project
|
| I just finally branched out from software into hobby hardware
| and I'm eating up these tinkerer subreddits alive. Thanks for a
| new one.
|
| I impulse-bought an Arduino Uno (well, the much cheaper Elegoo
| Uno) starter kit and e-ink display and have been working on my
| own personal-needs Kindle replacement. Wish I did this as a kid
| or in uni. Oh well, never too late. Having lots of fun.
|
| The only regret is encumbering my minimalist nomad lifestyle
| with a multimeter, soldering iron kit, and more when my life
| had, just a month ago, fit into two duffel bags! A 3D printer
| is off the table at the moment.
| mbreese wrote:
| Have you checked out this project [1]? I found this one
| yesterday too. It's a project working on an ebook built from
| various microcontrollers.
|
| [1] https://github.com/joeycastillo/The-Open-Book
| rement wrote:
| I don't know what part of the world you are from but my local
| library has a 3D printer you can use for free. All you need
| is a library card in good standing and to take a 1 hour
| orientation. After that you just need to reserve the printer
| for the day (no overnight printing).
| mjlee wrote:
| You can get USB multimeters and oscilloscopes and the TS 80
| soldering iron is nice and compact.
|
| Also - consider local maker/hackerspaces if they're available
| (and, well, probably in a few months time in any event).
| mbreese wrote:
| I wish I could claim credit. I found this online and thought
| that I'd love to try and make one of these myself.
| jfedor2 wrote:
| I'm actually familiar with his work and that's how I decided to
| make the ball by just sanding 3D printed plastic (though I did
| it by hand).
| sdfjkl wrote:
| Isn't the ball terribly unbalanced? Trackball users often "throw"
| the cursor, where the ball rotates freely at speed, and it would
| induce an awkward wobble with an unbalanced ball.
| stcredzero wrote:
| I'm an avid trackball user, and this is one of the key
| attractions. I can flick the cursor from one side of my dual
| 1440p monitor set to the other, very quickly. It also works
| quite well with triple monitor setups.
| codesnik wrote:
| how do you set an initial orientation of the cursor? how does it
| know, where's "up" cursor direction?
| jfedor2 wrote:
| It doesn't know so the initial orientation is arbitrary. You
| have to set the "up" direction by touching the ball with a
| magnet in the right spot (there's a reed switch inside) and
| rotating it around the Z (vertical) axis until the directions
| are correct.
| roland35 wrote:
| This is awesome! With all the interest in gaming/home
| offices/high end peripherals one thing I was thinking of making a
| device similar to my 3d connexion to help with simple navigation
| and scrolling.
|
| My 3d connexion puck is great for CAD work, but it doesn't have
| the range to easily scroll through documents or code accurately.
| Hopefully I'll have something to share soon!
| blackrock wrote:
| I wish laptops had a trackball or scroll wheel instead.
|
| I've always disliked the trackpad. And to do any serious work, I
| have to pull out a regular mouse.
| npunt wrote:
| Great work! It makes me wonder if a few things could be possible:
|
| 1. Make the surface of the ball a multitouch trackpad surface so
| you could pinch zoom in and out and two finger scroll up and
| down, all on the ball itself. Make it only work when the ball is
| not pressed on hard enough to move.
|
| 2. Make the ball slightly squeezable, which registers as a click.
| That way you could roll it around on your desk or on the base.
| This honestly would also be a great kids computer toy so they
| don't have to get their hands near the device itself.
|
| 3. Add electromagnets inside on all sides and place the ball on a
| magnetic trackpad or base. When squeezed it would turn on the
| downward-facing electromagnet in the ball to make it harder to
| move, so you could engage in finer detail work.
|
| Probably a materials challenge to do any of these but it would be
| really cool to see these new input frontiers explored.
| lathiat wrote:
| Logitech MX Master does something like that for its scroll
| wheel to go into click or freewheel mode:
| https://blog.bolt.io/logitech-mx-master-3-vs-2s/
| Andrex wrote:
| Squeeze to click is such a cool idea for this. If it became a
| real product I could see myself buying one.
| riversflow wrote:
| I don't think it's so much a materials challenge as a
| manufacturing one. Putting a multitouch digitizer uniformly
| over the surface of a sphere is AFAIK a unique challenge.
|
| I'm not sure how you could make the ball slightly squeezable
| yet hard and acceptably round to make for a nice trackball
| experience. As the OP points out, it's easy to notice when
| things aren't perfectly round. I think the best thing to do
| would be to just use the touch sensors, but I'm not super deep
| in the sensors world, maybe their is some sort of internal
| stress sensor that you could use to see if it is getting
| squeezed.
|
| I think you'd have to switch the fixed magnet into the
| trackball, as I can't see electromagnets of sufficient strength
| working on power beamed inside a ball. You need a "magic"
| algorithm and some fancy electormagnets in the base to try and
| attempt to create an "increased resistance" mode as you descri
| e. Alone this is a very interesting, and I suspect difficult
| problem that may have some prior art. I'm not an EE, but I feel
| like this is something that one might be able to do some back
| of the envelope calculations on to see if the adequate force is
| realistic given space and power constraints. One thought I had
| is that you might be able to use the resistance between emf
| fields and conductors, but without some sort of exotic
| metamaterial I don't think you could get adequate resistance.
|
| Anyway, I can only think of one company that could take this
| on, Apple. And if Apple got on it, one thing that would be neat
| is if the ball had xyz linear actuators so that it would click.
| 0_____0 wrote:
| One of the coolest bits of manufacturing tech I've seen is
| laser-printed circuit traces on plastic. There are a couple
| different ways to do it, but in any case you can print gold
| traces onto 3D objects, even concave ones. It gets used to
| print antennas onto plastic for phones and whatnot. The tech
| is a little bit exotic but it's purchasable by even a small
| R&D group, don't have to be Apple to get it.
| dahx4Eev wrote:
| Do you have any recommendations for the metal trace
| printers? Or what keywords should I search for?
| iFreilicht wrote:
| I like the interaction ideas, and I think both 1 and 2 could
| work the way you describe, but 3 would probably be better
| solved inside the base. The bearing balls could be spring-
| loaded so when you press down, you engage with some other
| surface that acts like a brake?
|
| Not super sure if that's what users would want, tough, it would
| probably make "throwing" the cursor harder.
| christkv wrote:
| The Logitech mx ergo has this with a little switch and it's
| super useful.
| Pxtl wrote:
| An I the only one seeing nothing for "here it is in action"?
| ORioN63 wrote:
| Same. Here it is (fetched from source):
| https://www.youtube.com/embed/QbE3H4vglHw
| jfedor2 wrote:
| Ahh, it was broken on mobile. Should be working now.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| That's really well-done. Kudos!
|
| I was never a fan of trackballs (except for a couple of video
| games that gave me bruised palms), but this would be fun.
|
| But we'd have to see how it works out, over time.
|
| I have an old "gyro mouse,"[0] in my "junk drawer." It was
| something I could never really get to like, even though it is
| cool.
|
| [0] https://www.gyration.com/
| hawski wrote:
| That is very nice. I wonder how could one integrate left mouse
| click in there and also if it would be a fun unconventional
| gaming controller for a tailor made game. It would have to be
| balanced, as one of the commenters wondered here. A graph coming
| from playing with it like a ball would be interesting to see.
|
| I gather people reading this thread could have some knowledge
| regarding Linux/X11 input devices handling. I bought a TLK
| keyboard with a trackball built in and I would like to use it as
| a scrolling ball. But I would like for it to send events like
| from two finger scroll on a touchpad, that applications aware of
| it would scroll smoothly like on a Macbook or a Chromebook. I
| assume it has to do with libinput. How could I approach this?
| Bonus points if I could use scroll-lock key and indicator for the
| scrolling mode.
|
| EDIT: I bought this one:
| https://perixx.com/furniture_store_view/catalog/product/view...
| One issue I have with it: I don't know where is the numlock key,
| probably something with Fn keycombo, but they did not print much
| on key caps.
|
| EDIT2: I found out, that what I want is smooth and precise
| scrolling - https://pavelfatin.com/scrolling-with-pleasure/
| nsajko wrote:
| What you are asking for seems to be described here:
|
| https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Libinput#Scroll_with_mo...
|
| https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Logitech_Marble_Mouse
|
| Alternatively, buy an input device that runs QMK; then you will
| be able to configure this at the input device's end
| (independently of the host device). For example, the Ploopy
| open source trackball and mouse run QMK, see this for
| configuring the trackball for scrolling:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/ploopy/comments/kw80a3/use_ball_as_...
| hawski wrote:
| Thank you kindly! After I issued xinput set-
| prop "HID 04d9:a088 Mouse" "libinput Button Scrolling Button"
| 3
|
| it works, because this trackball does not have the default
| button 2. All with precise and smooth scrolling where it's
| supported. I'll enable smooth scrolling on Firefox to make
| use of it. Now I'll only figure out if there is a setting to
| keep it enabled by default - to inverse the scroll button
| behavior.
|
| EDIT: Issuing xinput set-prop "HID 04d9:a088
| Mouse" "libinput Button Scrolling Button Lock Enabled" 1
|
| Changes the scroll button behavior to a toggle. So it is
| exactly as I wanted. Perfect! Thanks again!
| nsajko wrote:
| > Now I'll only figure out if there is a setting to keep it
| enabled by default - to inverse the scroll button behavior.
|
| If you're using xinit (or startx) to fire up you Xorg, you
| can run the xinput commands in your xinitrc:
| https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Xinit
|
| A decent window manager or desktop environment setup (if it
| isn't intended for running with xinit) will offer some
| other way of automating this.
|
| But there's also the option of doing this configuration on
| the Xorg server side in some xorg.conf, like in the links I
| gave previously.
| punnerud wrote:
| Seems to work just like the Sphero:
| https://sphero.com/collections/all/family_sphero
|
| Could not find the Pc/Mac part of the program from the article.
|
| Should be easy to make Sphero do the same.
| nmaggioni wrote:
| From last time I hacked something up with a Sphero [1] I
| remember having to lock the motors to read the raw gyro/acc
| data, this would make the ball itself quite unbalanced but it's
| an interesting idea nonetheless.
|
| [1]: https://github.com/nmaggioni/flysphero
| jfedor2 wrote:
| There is no PC part. It is a standard Bluetooth mouse and works
| with any computer, tablet or phone with no additional software,
| as long as it supports the standard protocol.
| darkwater wrote:
| Totally unrelated question: according to Sphero website they
| charge you specifically for 1y/2y/3y warranties. I think in the
| EU at least this is not legal, 1y warranty from the producer is
| mandatory, and in some cases it must be 2. Obviously, covered
| by the price of the good.
| baybal2 wrote:
| Very interesting, but where do you put buttons?
| notagoodidea wrote:
| On a specific layer of your keyboard. For example, using QMK
| with compatible keyboards, you can have you're right/left mouse
| click on a specific layer. You can imagine this kind of
| trackball integrated with a split keyboard.
| Tepix wrote:
| Super cool. Could it use a 3d compass to determine the "forward"
| direction?
| roland35 wrote:
| You can see your local magnetic field using NOAA's handy online
| tool:
| https://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomag/calculators/magcalc.shtml?u...
|
| I didn't realize this earlier but my local magnetic field is
| actually mostly vertical! North: 19,625.7 nT West: -2,932.5 nT
| Vertical: 48,731.3 nT
| jfedor2 wrote:
| It does use a 3D compass (magnetometer), but it still needs to
| be told which direction is "up" as that depends on your
| orientation with regard to the screen.
| Wildgoose wrote:
| For a moment I was hoping there was a replacement for the
| wonderful (and ancient) Microsoft Trackball Explorer.
|
| If you are right-handed then it is ergonomically shaped to fit
| your hand. Use your fingers to move the (large) ball and your
| thumb to press the buttons. Comfortable and natural to use.
|
| The fact that refurbished models sell for very high prices shows
| just how good they are.
| jfedor2 wrote:
| Personally I'm a (platonic) fan of the Microsoft EasyBall.
| kzrdude wrote:
| I'm just curious about language, where does the "Mark II"
| terminology come from? It sounds military or weapons related, but
| that could be wrong.
| jfedor2 wrote:
| I'm sure there's a perfectly valid historical explanation, but
| I'm just referencing the suit naming scheme from Iron Man.
| roland35 wrote:
| Seems like it came from the idea of adding a simple "mark" for
| each revision!
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_(designation)
| kzrdude wrote:
| Oh, thanks for finding that. Seems my hunch about weapons was
| right, for some (to me unknown) reason.
| layoutIfNeeded wrote:
| It's from the Bible: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_2
| bilekas wrote:
| This is really cool..
|
| Is there any intention for this to be used for physically
| impaired? I would see that as a 'useful' application
| sparrish wrote:
| Built by a man who obviously doesn't own a dog. "Anybody seen my
| mouse that looks like a ball?"
| m463 wrote:
| I imagine a man in a tug of war with his dog and behind him all
| the windows keep getting dragged off the screen.
| mhh__ wrote:
| In my experience my cat would therefore see this as an
| opportunity to steal my chair so the animals win regardless
| bluGill wrote:
| My cat would be batting the ball around the room. They are
| dead now, but previous cat/dog combos would have played
| with the ball together.
| 127 wrote:
| Very inspiring work. Thanks for sharing.
| divingdragon wrote:
| It is a very intriguing idea, but without integrated mouse
| buttons and a dedicated scroll wheel, it has to be used in
| conjunction with a custom keyboard.
|
| I love my CST (now X-Keys) L-Trac trackball and I don't think the
| OP trackball can replace it. That said, it might be interesting
| to use one as a secondary input device. Hmm...
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(page generated 2021-02-03 23:03 UTC)