[HN Gopher] Losing bonds sports fans
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Losing bonds sports fans
Author : CapitalistCartr
Score : 30 points
Date : 2021-02-02 12:58 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.sapiens.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.sapiens.org)
| lordnacho wrote:
| As a long time fan of a soccer club that endured a decade of
| humiliation followed by success, the reason is that you can't
| tell the real fans from the fairweather fans during the good
| times.
|
| So the bonding stories are often the ones where we reminisce
| about bad times and about players who were marginal in the league
| but memorable to us. Also the judas story works nicely too,
| that's always some guy who has to make a living and he ends up
| joining the rivals.
|
| If you're going to find out who really loves the club, because
| you know tribalism, you can't talk about the time you won the
| treble. You have to talk about that time you schlepped your
| friends across the country only to see them get reversed 3-2. Or
| when someone does yet another shitpost asking for the all time
| XI, you pull out that obscure defender they got on loan who was
| terrible and played only 5 games. Or that time you did a pitch
| invasion thanks to a cult player scoring an equaliser in an
| otherwise bad game that people were already leaving.
| amoorthy wrote:
| You must be an Arsenal fan. Bloody depressing.
| pbalau wrote:
| > As a long time fan of a soccer club that endured a decade
| of humiliation followed by success
|
| This screams Liverpool.
| dylan604 wrote:
| If LFC, they would not have said decade. Decades.
| lordnacho wrote:
| Following any team is like that. Sadness is what binds the
| fans together. Luckily, only one team needs to win each
| trophy each year, and some years one team wins several.
| odshoifsdhfs wrote:
| The thing about Arsenal is, that they always try & walk it
| in.
| mpalczewski wrote:
| I'm a fair weather fan when it comes to sports.
|
| I can admire someone that is really at the top of their craft
| in just about any field. It is something to watch and be
| inspired and amazed by.
|
| I never understand the concept of cheering for a team that
| sucks because of some loyalty. Loyalty to what exactly? The
| players come and go over the years, perhaps it's a loyalty to
| the owners? or as Seinfeld used to call it, "cheering for
| laundry".
| lordnacho wrote:
| You do it to exercise and to excise your tribal instincts.
| What's special about a tribe? You can't leave it. Someone
| quipped that you can leave your wife and you can leave your
| job, you can't leave your club.
|
| In truth if you've ever had a friend who changed clubs after
| the age of 10 they've been ridiculed for decades since.
| lovegoblin wrote:
| This doesn't answer the question, though. _Why?_
| lordnacho wrote:
| Why do I follow a team, the same team? Because that
| tribal instict, it is against programming to change. Once
| you have picked you are Mormom-married (apparently the
| Mormons stay married in the afterlife?). A friend dragged
| me in. There are people who are buried with the banner of
| their club, and the family considers it an honour to have
| representatives present at the funeral.
|
| I watch plenty of games by other clubs, I just don't care
| in the same way. Ronaldo or Messi would never play for my
| team, but I appreciate them in a sort of intellectual,
| emotionally distant way. Like how I watch NFL games, it's
| an interesting sport with strategically appealing
| elements. Do I really care whether Mahomes or Brady takes
| it? Nah.
| [deleted]
| gowld wrote:
| What's the point of cheering for the winner? You didn't help,
| the winner can't hear you cheering, and you didn't even
| predict anything. It's totally pointless. On top of that it's
| exhausting to keep guessing when to change your allegience.
| Do you switch who to cheer for every time the lead changes in
| a game or a season?
|
| Sure, it's cool to watch the championships, but that's being
| a fan of the sport, not the team.
| jdminhbg wrote:
| > I never understand the concept of cheering for a team that
| sucks because of some loyalty. Loyalty to what exactly?
|
| As the article explains, to your fellow fans.
| tokai wrote:
| >Loyalty to what exactly? The players come and go over the
| years, perhaps it's a loyalty to the owners?
|
| Personnel is transient. That's why it makes sense to have
| loyalty to the identity of a team. That also elevates it from
| shilling a corporate entity to a lifestyle. Clubs often have
| relations and connections to their fanclubs, because they
| know they have a huge stake in the team and do hold some
| power. Also its more fun to watch sports if you have some
| skin in the game, instead of just observing 'neutrally',
| besides the social aspect. It's a kind of adhoc storytelling.
| dylan604 wrote:
| Locality and the pride of the local team. Do you cheer for
| your country's Olympic team? Do you stand for the pledge of
| allegience or national anthem? Why? Because that's what you
| were trained to do as a kid? Lots of sports fans start the
| same way.
|
| If you are referring to betting on sports as "skin in the
| game" when making it more interesting just is an excuse for
| your need to bet on something. I never bet on sports of any
| type, and enjoy it just fine. If you feel that sports on
| only interesting if you have money on the line, then maybe
| it is time to seek help.
| Taylor_OD wrote:
| Same. My brother has loved the Huston Rockets for 10 years.
| They have been okay to good a few times since he's been a
| fan.
|
| I've enjoyed watching OKC, the Lakers, Raptors, and the Bucks
| during that time. I chock it up to him enjoying the sport a
| lot more than I do. I don't want to watch a team lose.
| matwood wrote:
| If you're watching pro sports, you're watching those who are
| at the top of their craft win or lose. Occasionally there are
| some epically bad teams, but those are outliers. The margin
| of victory in most pro sports is very small, where the losing
| team might make 1 less great play than the winning team.
|
| So cheering for a team that hasn't won big in a long time
| doesn't necessarily mean watching bad play. They might just
| perpetually be short that one player or coach. And, as
| someone whose team is usually bad, when they do win it's so
| sweet.
| slx26 wrote:
| dedication
| lionhearted wrote:
| I wonder if the causality might run the other way -- like, if you
| imagine a set of "all possible commitment levels of sports fans"
| you'd have hardcore committed... moderately committed... middle
| of the road... somewhat fairweather... complete bandwagonner.
|
| Something like that, eh?
|
| Losing might strip away the fairweather/bandwagoner fans, leaving
| only the people with a natural predilection to commitment.
| Winning might attract more bandwagon/fairweather fans.
|
| You could probably test this by finding multiple teams that had
| around a 50% win percentage and finding fans that adopt them in
| early adulthood, like someone who goes to college in Indiana
| starting to root for the Indiana Pacers (basketball), etc.
|
| If you build a sample of around 1000 people that adopted
| different middle-of-the-road teams, then followed them
| longitudinally, you could see whether they increase in
| commitment, drop out, or stay about the same with rising and
| falling fortunes of the team.
|
| A lot of work, though. No doubt certain experiences shape
| perception of fandom, but I imagine it's different populations --
| not just the same type of starting population being effected by
| different events.
| [deleted]
| at-fates-hands wrote:
| Not a great experiment to say the least, especially in English
| football where the socio-economic bond between fans in cities is
| stronger based on region and class structure. I was hoping the
| research they did would include some of this data, but it was
| completely missing from the research and the article.
|
| To me the class structure as it relates to English football clubs
| is far more important and deeper than than just the simple
| "identity fusion" and "dysphoric events" the article puts forth
| as the key bonding elements of football fans and their clubs
| StevePerkins wrote:
| In 2017, my hometown Atlanta Falcons (an American football team)
| blew a 28-3 lead in Super Bowl 51. It was the most stunning high-
| profile choke in the history of the National Football League.
|
| In the past few years since, the team has continued to develop a
| reputation for choking. We have lost a number of high-profile
| games, where the predictive models suggested a 99% probability of
| winning near the end. Yet we still found a way to lose at the
| last second.
|
| During this time, I have observed that fanbase has become
| absolutely toxic. To the point where I don't even enjoy talking
| with other Falcons fans anymore, _and find that many Falcons fans
| tend to feel the same way_. Our fandom is an isolating, silent
| shame wrapped in a blanket of bitter denial and deflection.
|
| The fanbases of other NFL teams, such as the Cleveland Browns or
| Buffalo Bills, are known for being charming and loveable for
| their loyalty in the face of decades of futility. But this has
| not been the outcome for our fanbase, in the face of sudden and
| abrupt disaster.
|
| This is just one counter-anecdote. But I wonder if there are
| "kinds" or "degrees" of losing, whose nuance matters? Or kinds
| and degrees of fan culture, prior to the bonding loss?
|
| Or maybe the whole thing is just nonsense. I know there are
| studies linked here, but cultural anthropology is borderline-
| pseudoscience.
| Arrath wrote:
| A similarly painful Super Bowl loss (Seahawks 2015) lead to me
| bonding with a large number of sports fans, within and without
| the Seahawks fan base.
|
| I was in New Orleans for a professional conference and watched
| the game in the hotel bar. After that heart rending loss, I
| just wandered around Bourbon Street (still wearing my jersey)
| until the wee hours of the morning. I was greeted, chatted up,
| hugged, by fans of any number of teams, not even my own.
|
| The "Fuck Tom Brady" factor may have played into this, which
| ties into the 'kinds' or 'degrees' of loss that you're leading
| in to. And yes, I certainly think there are degrees of losing.
| Jtsummers wrote:
| I don't know where it originated, but my family uses the phrase
| "Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory" for things like
| that Super Bowl game.
|
| After that game, I noticed the Falcons fans in my town actually
| seemed more into the team (central GA at the time). Some people
| put away their apparel, but the ones who kept it up were more
| invested than ever.
| ska wrote:
| > I don't know where it originated
|
| Apparently it goes back to at least the 1800s in sporting
| use.
|
| https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/06/07/jaws-of-victory/
| Jtsummers wrote:
| Nice find, thanks. I knew it wasn't original to us, but
| I've rarely heard it outside of my home (though I also
| don't watch sports news/discussions so it's probably pretty
| common there).
| renewiltord wrote:
| Haha, any English or Indian cricket fan surely knows that
| phrase quite well. I remember it growing up in the 90s and it
| surely precedes that.
| akchin wrote:
| As a 90s Indian cricket fan, this was exactly my thought
| :-)
| andy800 wrote:
| >> We have lost a number of high-profile games, where the
| predictive models suggested a 99% probability of winning near
| the end.
|
| If it's any consolation, I don't believe the Falcons were ever
| truly at 99%+ win probability, in the Super Bowl or in those
| blown leads this regular season. Most WP models, in my opinion,
| highly over/understate the true WP as they approach the
| extremes. Obviously ATL had a very high P(winning), but perhaps
| it was 96-97% rather than 99+. Seems like a minor difference,
| but from the NE side, if the Patriots truly had a 3.5% chance
| instead of a reported 0.5%, that's a 7x improvement. I've done
| some analysis on these models and written about it here:
| https://cfnine.com/blog/nfl-win-probability-part-1
| QuesnayJr wrote:
| I'm a long-time Eagles fan. The Eagles didn't have any failures
| as high profile as Super Bowl 51, but they did seriously
| contend for a long time without ever winning. At the time, it
| seemed like it was okay, because it meant at least most seasons
| meant something, but by the time Super Bowl 52 rolled around it
| almost felt like a mental illness that was magically cured by
| them winning.
|
| I think the experience of being a fan of true sad-sack
| franchises doesn't have the same effect. (Probably Bills fans
| were like that after their fourth Super Bowl loss.) A
| successful season for the Browns or the Lions is 8-8, so they
| never reach the point where they think "This is our year." You
| got to think this was your year to the latest possible moment.
| exabrial wrote:
| This is great news for Tampa Bay and their upcoming defeat this
| weekend!
| oo0shiny wrote:
| Bet against Tom Brady at your own peril!
| exabrial wrote:
| Too bad we can stake HN reputation or something pahaha
| FillardMillmore wrote:
| Sorry Tom, there's a new sherrif in town.
| ksm1717 wrote:
| Cheering for losing sports teams brings people together much in
| the same way that a funeral does
| jkingsbery wrote:
| Reading through the actual study, there were 752 fans surveyed,
| but 290 were fans of one team, and 27 were for teams other than
| the 10 teams they were focusing on, so really the analysis was a
| survey of 435 people. Also, the measure of affinity was answering
| a hypothetical question (a version of the Trolley Dilemma, except
| the person being asked would have to sacrifice himself/herself).
| So I'm a bit skeptical it's as simple as the study makes it out
| to be.
|
| Anecdotally, it seems like it should be more complicated too. As
| a New York Yankees fan who was in Massachusetts when the Boston
| Red Sox won their first World Series (Major League Baseball) in
| 80+ years, it seems winning was a pretty big bonding moment for
| Red Sox fans.
|
| I think affinity must also be different depending on the region.
| If you go to Boston, there are signs everywhere for the Red Sox
| and Patriots. In Seattle, everything is all about the Seahawks.
| In the New York area, we have multiple teams in the major pro
| sports, so sport-team-affinity and location-affinity are
| necessarily more loosely coupled here.
| rmason wrote:
| If that theory is true the most bonded sports fans in the world
| have to be those following the Detroit Lions. Why the Lions? The
| last championship the team won was in 1957, that's ten years
| before the first SuperBowl.
|
| Most of the records the team holds involved losing, like being
| the only NFL team to go 0-16. It's an extremely rare occurrence
| when the team makes the playoffs, the team has only won a single
| playoff game in its history and they promptly fired the coach.
|
| The team hires General Managers who have zero management
| experience and they're going to keep doing it until they win. The
| Detroit Lions just traded the best quarterback the franchise has
| had since 1957 in his prime to begin yet another rebuild, such
| pure joy.
| fuzzer37 wrote:
| Never gonna change till the Ford's sell the team off.
| [deleted]
| hprotagonist wrote:
| entirely unrelated to the article itself, i'm adding that title
| to my list of garden-path sentences.
| neitherboosh wrote:
| I had to read the headline at least six times before I figured
| out what it meant.
| javierga wrote:
| It's a funny title. Both bonds and sports can be the verb.
| I'm assuming most people read the verb as Sports vs Bonds:
|
| - Why Losing _Bonds_ Sports Fans: why when your team loses
| you strengthen your affiliations to your team. - Why Losing
| Bonds _Sports_ Fans: why throwing away good money on bonds is
| popular (I have no background to decide why bond investing in
| bonds might be a good or bad idea).
| tgarv wrote:
| Your second version of it makes me think of WallStreetBets'
| "loss porn", where people are fans of others losing money.
| mc32 wrote:
| And then there is/was Barry Bonds...
| reidjs wrote:
| Ugh I read it so many times because of this. First read:
| bonds? Like banking bonds? Second time: oh, Barry bonds
| from the giants? I didn't like him either. Third read:
| ohhh bonds as in brings them together.
|
| "Losing brings sports fans together" ok that makes sense.
| clovis wrote:
| The less successful teams in the English Premier League tend to
| not have many "plastic fans". Chances are if you support
| Sheffield United it's not because they went on a US/Asia summer
| tour, but rather because people in your immediate social
| environment (e.g. family and close friends) support them.
| gojomo wrote:
| May be more a filter than a cause.
| renewiltord wrote:
| Interesting. As an Arsenal fan, we haven't hit our heady heights
| of the early 2000s ever again. Chelsea have been better than us,
| live in the same city, and are oil-powered and they still are
| tighter fused than Gooners. How strange. I wonder why that is.
| dylan604 wrote:
| An above average but not legendary yet beloved manager sat on
| the throne for much too long. Consistent top 4 and a Champion's
| League place is not something to be ignored nor laughed at, but
| not the same as what Fergie achieved in his long tenure.
| renewiltord wrote:
| Well, he's legendary to us, considering the Invincibles, but
| I won't bore this audience with a classic football argument.
| bla3 wrote:
| For others who need some time to parse that title: "bonds" is the
| verb.
| croddin wrote:
| Yeah that took me a little bit too. It a garden-path sentence
| title.
| moate wrote:
| As an MLB fan, I felt like it got even worse/less clear
| because it was about sports. I thought this had something to
| do with Barry Bonds. Reread that about 5 times.
| dylan604 wrote:
| Was the lack of capitalization on the word bonds not a
| clue?
| orthecreedence wrote:
| It was originally capitalized: "Losing Bonds Sports Fans"
| before the title was edited. I will add that in the
| capitalized form, I also had a really hard time parsing
| the statement.
| PaulJulius wrote:
| This reminds of my favorite article by sportswriter Bill Simmons,
| titled The Consequences of Caring, in which he describes seeing
| his daughter embrace a sports team and experience crushing
| disappointment for the first time, and reflects on his own
| lifetime of fandom.
|
| https://grantland.com/features/the-consequences-caring/
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