[HN Gopher] Ford, Google form 'strategic partnership' on cloud s...
___________________________________________________________________
Ford, Google form 'strategic partnership' on cloud services,
Android
Author : mfer
Score : 79 points
Date : 2021-02-01 16:53 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.detroitnews.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.detroitnews.com)
| greesil wrote:
| I really enjoyed having Android Auto in my Chevy Bolt. It's just
| letting my phone display stuff on my screen, but not running
| Android. I could run Maps, play spotify as a I drive, and if I
| had root on my phone I could also play youtube videos for my kids
| :)
|
| I have to wonder, is having Android in my car going to lead to a
| situation where I'm stuck with some old, insecure version of
| Android, just like my shitty Verizon phone which they never
| bothered to upgrade from Oreo? Because if that's the case, no
| thank you.
| webkike wrote:
| I would say it's almost a certainty that will happen
| sithadmin wrote:
| >is having Android in my car going to lead to a situation where
| I'm stuck with some old, insecure version of Android
|
| Of course it is. This plagues every single device that runs
| Android. And Ford already has an awful track record of
| inflicting infotainment software horrors on their customers.
| xxpor wrote:
| This isn't nearly as much of an issue as it used to be.
| People complain about google grabbing more control over
| android by cutting manufacturers off from play services, but
| they needed to get their asses kicked in a lot of cases.
| anewaccount2021 wrote:
| > This plagues every single device that runs Android
|
| huh? My Samsung S20 is on the latest OS and security patches
| sithadmin wrote:
| So is mine. The point here is that it won't be 1-2 years
| from now when it gets abandoned just like every other
| Android device.
|
| Considering that the lifecycle of the average Ford is many
| years longer than that of any mobile device, this is
| clearly going to be problematic.
| thekyle wrote:
| Isn't the Galaxy S20 basically a brand-new phone? It hasn't
| even been out for a year yet.
| [deleted]
| maccard wrote:
| My current car is 3 years old and us the newest on the
| street. There are dozens of phones and Android devices the
| same age that haven't received updates.
| andrewia wrote:
| Cars already do this. Most Hondas made around 2016+ are running
| Android 4.x. Most Hyundais/Kias from 2015+ are running running
| Android 2.3 or 4.x (including my 2015 Genesis sedan).
| Meanwhile, most other vehicles are running proprietary embedded
| OSes (QNX, Windows Embedded) or very old versions of Linux.
|
| So Android Automotive OS is an improvement over this, since
| Google will be updating the system (or mandating some updates)
| and system apps will be receiving updates decoupled from the
| OS. Cars are already insecure and connected.
| readams wrote:
| Of course the alternative is that you get the same shitty
| version of the Ford infotainment software that is never updated
| from the day you buy your car. So there at least things are
| actually improving in that respect.
|
| But really the model of just running everything from your phone
| is probably the best approach.
| xxpor wrote:
| My 2016 focus did get some updates, but on the other hand it
| wasn't connected to the internet so in terms of risk it
| wasn't nearly as much of an issue
| anewaccount2021 wrote:
| Doubt it...Tesla has made OTA updates a new baseline/table-
| stakes for the industry, I would expect everyone to follow suit
| eventually.
|
| Have to wonder if this "partnership" will also result in Waymo
| tech ending up in Ford vehicles...
| SomeHacker44 wrote:
| Tesla owns the entire car and bears full responsibility for
| virtually everything in it, including the software that
| steers clear of reliance upon Google and Apple technologies.
|
| My opinion: The split responsibility of Google and Ford on
| the entertainment system will inevitably result in the same
| early obselesence of the software as compared to the car
| hardware. We have seen this in much Android phone hardware (a
| year or two of updates, usually not including a major
| version), and I see it in my Android TVs (Sony). Even Apple,
| which IMO has a track record of longer support, has done it
| with Apple TV recently, and Sonos threatened it with
| perfectly fine working old hardware until outrage forced them
| to change plans.
|
| All in all, I prefer less integrated things with clear
| responsibilities that work together under well established
| protocols. I want a dumb TV with good HDMI and other specs,
| to which I can connect whatever display device I want (or
| many). I want my car to be perpetually supported (unlikely
| beyond Tesla) or a simple display (Android Auto or Car Play
| or whatever) so I can upgrade the thing doing the display
| whenever I choose.
|
| Of course, if Ford committed to having a computer module that
| could be upgraded occasionally for the price of a mid-range
| phone, and commit to supporting it for 25+ years, that would
| be okay too. My Acura is in its 12th year and because it is
| so "dumb" I haven't felt any urge to upgrade it. My (2020)
| Tesla gets updates probably monthly via WiFi. It changes too
| much IMO; I want stability from my cars and devices, but
| honestly the changes are almost all improvements in my
| (software engineer) opinion.
| chipotle_coyote wrote:
| > Even Apple, which IMO has a track record of longer
| support, has done it with Apple TV recently...
|
| This caught my eye because I'm not sure what you mean here
| -- AFAIK, the current "tvOS" release runs on all Apple TVs
| released from late 2015 on, and they kept updating the 3rd
| generation model that came out in early 2012 up to 2019.
| This still seems to be a _pretty_ good track record, all
| things considered. (There 's a pretty huge CPU jump between
| the 3rd generation and 4th generation, including a move
| from 32-bit to 64-bit.)
|
| Unrelatedly, though,
|
| > I want a dumb TV with good HDMI and other specs, to which
| I can connect whatever display device I want (or many).
|
| I would have loved to have found one of those that also met
| the 4K HDR requirement I'd set to upgrade from my
| blissfully dumb plasma set. I'm not unhappy with my my LG
| OLED by any stretch, but it would be really damn nice if
| there was a "turn all of WebOS off and just be a TV set"
| feature.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| Other manufacturers have OTA updates. My Ford pickup does, my
| Chevy Bolt does. What Tesla brought to the table was the idea
| that it is acceptable to update the software on the car every
| week. The incumbent manufacturers default stance is much more
| conservative.
| xeromal wrote:
| I own a Tesla so I'm curious, what kind of updates do you
| get? Are they mostly bug-fixes and performance improvements
| or does Chevy also send new features and doodads? I'm
| curious because I took a look inside someone's bolt at a
| charging station and the interior looked very nice. I was
| hoping I could get some feedback on it!
| izacus wrote:
| Currently there's one company that uses Android Automotive
| (Volvo/Polestar) and in that case Google is pushing updates
| directly - similarly like ChromeOS works.
|
| Still, I guess the update contract will run out eventually,
| just like on every single other car. The details about how long
| it'll take for that to happen aren't public though.
| Zhenya wrote:
| Afaik, the images are signed by Volvo and pushed by Volvo.
| izacus wrote:
| Ah, I misread the articles then, thanks for correction.
| UI_at_80x24 wrote:
| Anything has got to be better then the Microsoft Infotainment
| system in my old Ford.
|
| To be honest though, I wish all of these addons would stop. I
| don't think they improve anything related to driving, but infact
| make it worse by cramming all kinds of important interfaces
| behind a touch-screen.
| at-fates-hands wrote:
| I used to pair the Microsoft SYNC system with my Windows phone
| in my Ford Fiesta and it was awesome. It would link
| immediately, the voice commands were straight forward and
| always worked quickly and accurately.
|
| I barely use the voice commands in my Corolla right now. It
| almost never works, takes forever to sync with my phone
| (Samsung Android) and the voice commands are total shit. It
| either doesn't understand me or the commands are so cumbersome
| just do something basic, its a waste of time compared to just
| grabbing my phone and pushing a few buttons. Compared the SYNC
| where I could say, "Call parents, home." and it just worked.
| reaperducer wrote:
| Agreed. My wife has the Microsoft one in her car, and it's such
| a disaster that she went back to listening to CDs.
| centimeter wrote:
| Reassignable control surfaces (touch screen, multi-purpose
| dials, etc.) is by far the worst extant UI paradigm for
| anything that has to be operated without full attention.
| Cameras are another example where not having dedicated physical
| controls for each property is horrible for proficient
| operation.
| unixhero wrote:
| Yeah. The ms infotainment really sucked.
| [deleted]
| tomp wrote:
| Ah, can't wait for Java's GC to hit in the middle of my breaking
| manoeuvre.
| Grazester wrote:
| Say what? You know only the infortainment system will be
| handled by Google Auto?
| rtkwe wrote:
| The only connection between the infotainment system and your
| brakes is over the CAN bus, nothing happening on the
| infotainment should affect braking.
| hootbootscoot wrote:
| I'll take exception and note that many metrics are displayed
| on the infotainment system, to say nothing of GPS and phone
| calls. I know that laws are intended to mitigate this, but
| the basic issue is that Android has frustrating UI issues
| that will likely contribute to an unsafe motor vehicle
| environment. Distractions exist. Android nearly gets me
| killed on a daily basis as-is, without making my car into a
| glorified smart phone.
| hootbootscoot wrote:
| but back to your original topic, I'm semi-familiar with the
| buggy world of automation drivers and the shady industry
| practices after a _brief_ foray into home and industrial
| automation. I 'm not referring to CAN drivers, particularly.
| Doubtless there are industry standards and compliance etc.
|
| You surely must recognize that having any connection
| whatsoever between an automotive control network and an
| onboard infotainment system represents a potential attack
| vector, right? There are countless low-hanging fruit already
| on the market as far as automotive hacks, and this simply
| will enrich that supply...
| rtkwe wrote:
| It's a controllable risk that can enable some useful things
| like getting meaningful error messages instead of a single
| check engine light.
| tomp wrote:
| Yeah I know, i was being 50% sarcastic.
|
| The other 50% is my incredulity that someone thought putting
| JVM in _more_ real-world products is a good idea.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| As long as they continue to support CarPlay, then fine. But I am
| not going back to a homebrew infotainment that ages right along
| with the car. When I buy a car now, I won't buy anything that
| doesn't support CarPlay *.
|
| * Yeah, I bought a Tesla, I broke my own rule. That part I
| regret, even if it is otherwise a good car.
| dagmx wrote:
| Fwiw Volvo shifted to integrated Android a little bit ago and
| continue to support CarPlay.
|
| Hopefully Ford follow suite
| chrisseaton wrote:
| Wow Tesla doesn't support CarPlay? That's crazy in such an
| expensive car. I had no idea.
| fulafel wrote:
| How does this work with the short EOL times of Android devices?
| Is there some special arrangement to supply patches for the
| lifetime of the car?
| andrewia wrote:
| Unfortunately many cars are already running Android for their
| infotainment (notable Hyundai/Kia/Genesis and Honda), have Wi-
| Fi and cellular connections, and never get updated. From this
| point, securing infotainment systems (such as by using a system
| updated by Google that also supports updating individual system
| components, i.e. modern Android), is a step in the right
| direction.
| mfer wrote:
| Android, in most setups, sends constant data to Google about what
| you do. Will this now happen with our cars? Google has an
| opportunity to collect even more data. This could help their data
| scrapping for surveillance capitalism.
|
| If you have your google account blocked, will features in your
| car stop working?
| lostphilosopher wrote:
| Only partially on topic...
|
| The worst part of my 2020 Toyota is the "ETunes" infotainment
| system. This is my 4th Toyota and the only one that has felt like
| a step backwards due to how bad that system is. Cars have had
| working radios since before I was born. This car has a radio with
| a bad UI and a habit of showing error messages...
|
| This is a dumb way to lose a customer.
| blakesterz wrote:
| "Further improve customer experiences for customers with
| differentiated technology and personalized services;"
|
| I must say, from a privacy stand point, that does not sound good.
| I know most people out in the general public probably don't care,
| and maybe anyone walking around with an Android phone is already
| sending the same data back to Google, but something about
| "personalized services" being generated by my car... I dunno,
| just doesn't sound good.
| jeffbee wrote:
| Non-personalized Android Auto would be pretty dumb. I like that
| when I get in the car it puts my usual destinations on the map.
| Why would I want it to pretend it doesn't know?
| Skunkleton wrote:
| > Why would I want it to pretend it doesn't know?
|
| I (and I think OP) want it to not know in the first place.
| decafninja wrote:
| CarPlay and Android Auto were gamechangers. Every built-in
| infotainment system I've seen so far has ranged from garbage to
| mediocre at best - in cars ranging from econoboxes to six figure
| cars. CP & AA blows them all out of the water.
|
| I don't care how crappy the infotainment is anymore in a car as
| long as I can plug in my phone.
| PaulWaldman wrote:
| Agreed, especially with the addition of wireless
| CarPlay/Android Auto AND wireless charging.
| recursive wrote:
| Having it built into the car still seems to be an improvement
| to me. I'm still yet to see any of these systems actually
| function at all. My '16 Subaru and Samsung phone both
| officially support it. But if I try to turn it on, you can take
| a guess from one of [incomprehensible error message | car does
| nothing, and phone locks up until hard reboot | car shows a
| blank panel on the screen until you press the home button]
|
| I don't know how unusual my case is, but it seems like there's
| a greater chance that it would work if there were fewer "moving
| parts" that had to interface.
| CodeMage wrote:
| I wish I could say the same. Unfortunately, my experience with
| Android Auto has been abysmal. Before the pandemic, I used to
| use it on my commute every day. At least once a week, it just
| wouldn't work and I would have to go through the ritual of
| trying the following things, until it started working again: *
| turn the car off and on again * turn the phone off and on again
| * forget and then re-create the Bluetooth pairing * delete the
| car from Android Auto and add it again
|
| Also, it would randomly decide to stop heeding voice commands.
|
| On top of that, any time there's an update to either Android
| Auto or Spotify, I had to pray things would keep working. If
| they didn't, sometimes The Ritual would fix things. Other
| times, it stayed broken until the next update.
| heymijo wrote:
| Yes!
|
| I've been in late model Porsche's, BMW's, GMC's, Honda's, and
| Ford's.* It's weird being in an $80k Porsche and thinking "this
| is garbage" because the infotainment system is so poorly
| designed.
|
| Just get me into Carplay and let me go _cough_ Toyota [0].
|
| *I don't own any of these
|
| [0] https://9to5mac.com/2019/04/29/carplay-toyota-2018-cars/
| partiallypro wrote:
| The new 911, I think, uses CarPlay. I actually hate the idea
| of only carrying CarPlay and not Android Auto or vice-versa.
| You should carry both. I don't get locking people into an
| ecosystem to use a car or making people have to replace the
| head-unit just to use their phone with their car properly,
| but then you lose all of the benefits of the head unit as it
| goes with the car (like A/C controls, etc?) It makes no
| sense.
| 52-6F-62 wrote:
| Hahaha, oh thanks for posting this. We bought a gently used
| 2018 Corolla just this past autumn. The interface isn't all
| that bad, I have to say. And it works seamlessly with my
| phone. But if I can sort out CarPlay... I just might have to
| dig into that.
| rednerrus wrote:
| I bought a Subaru over the Toyota because the infotainment
| system in the Toyota was so bad. I just want carplay in my
| car. I would have chosen a different make had I realized how
| big of a PITA not having wireless carplay was going to be. I
| just want to get in my car and have carplay start from my
| phone. I'm will to pay more money for it.
| criddell wrote:
| Porsche does one very cool thing - they released car play
| capable head units for cars going back to the 1960's:
|
| https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a32254313/1960s-porsche-91.
| ..
| jeffbee wrote:
| There have been lots of AA-compatible DIN-sized head units.
| It's a standard, hence the name.
| [deleted]
| gumby wrote:
| I did some contracting for Mercedes in Germany and Toyota in
| Japan and learned why this is the case.
|
| The people in car companies (engineering and management) are
| typically "gear heads". Not only do they care about the
| mechanical systems, they care enough that they'll make sure
| certain customer-invisible things (internal to engine, for
| example) or customer-subconscious things (in Mercedes' case how
| the hinge on the door works) are "just right". Kind of the
| equivalent of "I'll spin up another server when the load gets
| to X% just to have a good safety margin" or "this onboarding
| path could look like a dark pattern -- let's work around that
| just in case".
|
| The embedded software developers for engine control are
| serious. Among the mechanical engineers the folks writing
| control software for steering stability or performance-vs-
| efficiency code were treated with respect ("I don't understand
| what you do but sure, happy to explain this mechanical
| system"). But the people doing the UI were basically considered
| marketing.
|
| Seat must be comfortable. Visibility good ( _cough_ Prius).
|
| Oh the audio system? Automatic seat adjustment? Bluetooth?
| Let's write a requirement document, or even just a requirement
| powerpoint and send it out for quote. It's not that important
| and cheapest bidder is fine.
| petre wrote:
| Audi and Porsche contract Bose for the sound system. The
| decision is usually based on usually industry alliances, not
| necessarily the cheapest. The German automakers also have a
| stake in Here Maps, that's why you'll se it on their
| vehicles. If they don't have a stake they'll usually pick a
| German company or buy shares in one.
| toast0 wrote:
| > Oh the audio system? Automatic seat adjustment? Bluetooth?
| Let's write a requirement document, or even just a
| requirement powerpoint and send it out for quote. It's not
| that important and cheapest bidder is fine.
|
| Ford Sync 2 (aka MyFordTouch) is exactly this. The
| interaction design is actually good, people clearly thought
| about how to go from screen to screen and it would be highly
| usable, except that the response time is god awful. Rumor is
| Ford outsourced to Microsoft who outsourced to someone's
| cousin who wrote it in Adobe Air or something. If it wasn't
| slower than molasses, it would be pretty neat.
| RandallBrown wrote:
| Former Microsoft employee that worked on MyFordTouch for a
| little while.
|
| > Rumor is Ford outsourced to Microsoft who outsourced to
| someone's cousin who wrote it in Adobe Air or something
|
| That's actually pretty close. From what I understood
| Microsoft and Ford worked pretty closely on SYNC and that
| was a large success. Ford came back to Microsoft to have
| them do Sync 2.
|
| Microsoft gave them a quote saying it would take $X and Y
| time. Ford said it needs to be cheaper and faster.
| Microsoft told Ford "We can't do that, here are some of our
| preferred contractors for Windows Embedded, maybe they
| can."
|
| Some time later Ford came back to Microsoft saying "Please
| fix this" and that was around the time I joined. I actually
| heard a Ford VP say "This is the worst quality problem
| we've had in my time at Ford." He had been there during the
| Firestone tire debacle. (He was talking about cost in lost
| sales, obviously iPods not working wasn't as bad in the
| grand scheme of things as cars rolling over.)
|
| The "backend" of the system was written in C++ on Windows
| Embedded. The user interface was written in Flash with some
| insane stringly-typed interface to talk back and forth with
| the C++ layer. And that's how I became an action script
| developer at Microsoft for a (very) brief time.
|
| iPhones worked decently with the system. Android barely
| worked at all (Ford didn't care much about that at the
| time). Windows Phones actually worked pretty well since all
| the employees at the time had them and that's mostly what
| we'd use for developing.
|
| It was the worst job I've ever had.
| limeblack wrote:
| Forgive me but the Pixel and iPhones do not have headphone
| jacks. I can only wonder what phone do you use. Alternatively
| you mean "plug in" as bluetooth/usb enabled.
| Rebelgecko wrote:
| My Pixel has a headphone jack. It's the larger (3.5mm) of the
| two holes on top of the phone. However the poster is probably
| referring to USB or the wireless Carplay/Android Auto
| equivalents
| petre wrote:
| Wrong. Pixel 4a does have the phone jack.
| judge2020 wrote:
| Yes, Carplay and Android Auto either work over Bluetooth or a
| wire to the car's USB port.
| chipotle_coyote wrote:
| Carplay requires actual wifi to be wireless, I'm pretty
| sure. It definitely doesn't work over Bluetooth! (You can
| of course pair your phone to your car with Bluetooth, but
| that's a different thing.)
| judge2020 wrote:
| Looks like it technically uses Bluetooth for connecting,
| but it does indeed require wi-fi for the actual carplay
| experience.
|
| https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2017/717/?tim
| e=4... (click 'transcript' then ctrl-f 'hardware
| requirements' for transcript)
| anuragsoni wrote:
| For carplay and android auto, you'd plug your phone in via a
| lightening or a usb-c cable. I think there is wireless
| carplay and android auto too these days, but I'm not sure if
| that's available on many vehicles at the moment.
| aimor wrote:
| What are modern cars like with regard to needing a data
| connection? My car (2012) just stored all the data from North
| America locally and that's been incredibly useful when driving
| without cell service. The Google way in other products seems to
| assume an internet connection is available, and offline
| performance is an afterthought.
| Skunkleton wrote:
| My car from 2016 had its own cellphone data and gps. It was
| unclear to me if the data connection was always on, or if I had
| to pay for something to enable it.
| bilal4hmed wrote:
| I would prefer a dumb terminal and then I can just plus my phone
| in and have the OS I prefer. This way the software is updated and
| moves with me as I change platforms
|
| With that said Android Auto is fantastic.
| pwdisswordfish6 wrote:
| > dumb terminal
|
| This is evoking imagery of a car whose mid console has been
| replaced with the tube of a VT100, maybe accoutremented with
| RoboCop-era keypads along the edge(s), and I like it.
| bilal4hmed wrote:
| ha ha
| rootusrootus wrote:
| Isn't that exactly what AA and CarPlay are? Proprietary
| signalling, which isn't ideal, but they're essentially just
| dumb terminals for the phone. Though there is _some_ pass
| through of technology (e.g. the phone will utilize the vehicle
| GPS in some cases).
| bilal4hmed wrote:
| I think in this case it will have Android Auto built in like
| the polestar.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| I think in this case that is true. I sincerely hope they
| don't plan to do this in lieu of CarPlay/AA. I get that
| they want to have some kind of infotainment setup for
| people who don't have a smartphone to use for that, so this
| can serve that purpose.
| 0xbadcafebee wrote:
| _" Accelerate modernization of product development, manufacturing
| and supply chain management, including exploration of using
| vision AI for manufacturing employee training and even more
| reliable plant equipment performance;"_
|
| Oh sweet baby Jesus they're doing digital transformation. Look
| for a billion in losses over the next few years from poorly
| executing a DevOps transition.
|
| Also there's this: "Further improve customer
| experiences for customers with differentiated technology and
| personalized services; "Fast track the implementation of
| data-driven business models resulting in customers receiving
| real-time notices such as maintenance requests or trade-in
| alerts."
|
| They're going to play you personalized ads in your car.
|
| _" I see you're driving through Virginia! Stop by Crazy Larry's
| GM Dealership for a deal on an oil change! We both know you wait
| too long for that oil change, Phil."_
| causality0 wrote:
| I might be an old fogie but I don't want car integration. I just
| want phone accommodation. I want a good place to mount it and I
| want its audio to come out my stereo. Maybe play controls on my
| steering wheel but that's it. The car doesn't need its own
| software. My car is fourteen years old. Hopefully my next car
| will last at least that long. Sundar Pichai himself could
| personally promise me that my car will receive security updates
| for twenty years and I'd still laugh in his face at the very
| idea.
| cobookman wrote:
| This is why I like android auto / apple car play soo much. The
| car just becomes the speakers & display for your phone.
|
| Genius idea, and works great
| amelius wrote:
| Read: spyware in all Ford cars.
| OldHand2018 wrote:
| Yes, of course. Just don't be deceived and think that it is
| only Ford, or only Android Auto.
|
| This is what you get when you buy a new Toyota, for example:
|
| https://www.toyota.com/privacyvts/
| beervirus wrote:
| How feasible is it to disable the hardware for this stuff?
| hindsightbias wrote:
| Search for manufacturer and disabling
| telematics/telemetrics
|
| Example: http://toyota.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id
| /7954/rela...
|
| I've heard that SOS collections can be turned off by
| activating it and telling them you want to opt out.
|
| It would be nice if someone documented where models
| wifi/cellular antennas are. Perhaps there's a market for
| faraday cages built by model.
| crocodiletears wrote:
| Nobody's even really bothered to aggregate and quantify
| what different cars are collecting, to my knowledge. I
| don't think anybody's done much real work into privacy-
| modding modern cars. I'd love to be proven wrong though. I
| was recently forced to buy a 2016 Kia, and all the smart
| features have me grinding my teeth.
| prower wrote:
| I'm WAY ot of the loop here but do these infotainment systems
| actually produce tangible, relevant and unquestionable benefits?
| I think most of it, based also on usage of people I know, comes
| down to "speak on the phone with the car speakers". That's it.
|
| I've personally just bought a car from 2012 with no infotainment
| systems at all, and I also only miss bluetooth with my phone.
| That's it.
|
| Am I missing something big or is it really just marketing?
| jsmith45 wrote:
| My car came with a built-in GPS system, with integration into a
| smaller screen visible right on the dashboard, so I don't need
| to turn my head to look at the might screen to see the
| estimated distance remaining to an upcoming turn.
|
| This GPS system is pretty terrible compared to google maps. It
| does nominally have voice recognition to allow setting it eyes
| free, and disables most of the physical buttons when the car is
| in motion to "comply" with anti-distraction laws.
|
| However, the voice recognition system is so shitty, it would
| literally be safer to lock it out when moving, and enable all
| touchscreen features instead. Think have to spell the
| destination out one letter at at time, with an 80% chance it
| even understands the letter right in the first place.
|
| Using google map's voice recognition system is orders of
| magnitude better and less distracting.
|
| Plus user's can access their preferred non-radio music sources
| like Spotify.
| snug wrote:
| I think the responses here are missing the point in your
| questions.
|
| > do these infotainment systems actually produce tangible,
| relevant and unquestionable benefits?
|
| Yes for many people, but not you.
|
| The driver and passenger can change music, podcast, directions
| without needing to look at the phone, nor asking the driver
| (phone owner) to unlock their phone.
|
| A passenger can also plug in their phone without needing to
| figure out the bluetooth dance, and it just works, play their
| spotify, or podcast, or any number of things.
|
| It's also right there on the dash, you don't need a car mount
| to mount your phone on the dash, or window to get the
| directions, change a playlist, or podcast. It works on the
| dashboard and if you have steering wheel controls, they usually
| work there too.
| Rebelgecko wrote:
| Having navigation on the infotainment screen is a gamechanger.
| Even though you can buy nav units for cars, they typically
| slow, light on features, and have data that is years out of
| date (and a pain in the ass to update).
|
| Being able to just use the same map app that my phone does is
| so much more convenient, and feels safer than glancing down at
| my phone in the cupholder.
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| You get to feel warm and fuzzy that you won't be pulled over
| like one of those poors that actually have to touch the cell
| phone to answer a call.
|
| Integrated nav is nice and convenient but it's only real
| benefit over a $20 phone mount of $15 GPS from 2006 is less
| clutter.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| > Am I missing something big or is it really just marketing?
|
| CarPlay is awesome. I'm sure AA is, also. All the necessary
| communications functions, but specifically adapted for use in a
| car, along with navigation, music, podcasts, or whatever app.
|
| I won't buy another car without it. I'm all done having to hear
| my phone buzzz or ring and wonder what/who is trying to grab my
| attention. All done using outdated navigation systems that
| don't have traffic information. Etc.
| eulers_secret wrote:
| Older cars can sometimes accept upgraded radios with
| carplay/android auto.
|
| My '07 got a Sony head unit that does both, along with a nice
| 6.95" capacitive touch display for ~$400. It was worth every
| penny when I was commuting. You're missing convenience: Siri is
| nice, maps on the screen are nice, sharing the screen with
| passengers, quickly choosing a song without risking a cellphone
| use ticket (at a stop).
| closeparen wrote:
| A lot of modern cars have large and well positioned displays
| that are ideal for maps; CarPlay/Android Auto let you put
| Google Maps on them instead of the car's crappy built in GPS.
|
| "Speak on the phone with the car speakers" just needs Bluetooth
| which is much older and more widely available. This tech is
| about the display.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > I'm WAY ot of the loop here but do these infotainment systems
| actually produce tangible, relevant and unquestionable
| benefits?
|
| Does any entertainment or arts 'produce tangible, relevant and
| unquestionable benefits'?
|
| But anyway - yes. For example my car's maps knows where it is
| in a tunnel because it can dead reckon with the speedometer. My
| phone cannot do that. For my example my car has a DAB receiver
| and my phone does not. For example my car's infotainment has
| cameras I can use to park, sensors to tell me how deep I'm
| wading, my range left, etc. Obviously my phone doesn't any of
| that. How is none of that useful?
| Arainach wrote:
| Disclaimer: I work for Google, not on AA, all opinions
| exclusively my own, etc.
|
| Yes, you are. I had nothing more advanced than Bluetooth, drove
| a rental car with Android Auto support for a week, and
| immediately went out and replaced the head unit in both of my
| vehicles with one that supported AA and Carplay.
|
| The most obvious benefit is navigation. You get the full power
| of Google/Apple maps in real time, and you never have to pay
| your car OEM for updates.
|
| Navigation is also integrated with everything else. It knows
| that I have an appointment on my calendar in half an hour and
| suggests that as a destination without me having to retype it.
| It knows that in the mornings my most likely destination is
| "work" and my most likely evening destination is "home". It
| knows what brewery I like to go to on Saturday afternoons and
| suggests that too.
|
| Voice control is another huge one. I don't have as much
| experience with Carplay, but with AA I can use Google Assistant
| for nearly everything and keep my eyes on the road.
|
| It makes the connections trivial. Most modern systems should
| support wireless Android Auto - when I get in the car it
| connects over WiFi automatically without me doing anything.
| Even on older vehicles I plug in one USB cable and am good to
| go. Compare this to my bag of hardware I bring on trips where
| I'll have a rental car - you need to find a mount that works
| (sometimes a.dashboard suction cup, sometimes a vent clip), get
| the phone in a good angle where you can see it and it can get a
| good GPS signal, go into the car and pair it to Bluetooth,
| attach the charging cable and make sure it's not getting caught
| on anything, and so on.
|
| For calls and texts, it just works. I've fought with Ford Sync
| and other proprietary systems just trying to get it to
| recognize names. The stock unit in my Subaru was so bad that it
| couldn't keep "Firstname Last name" and "Othername Last name"
| as two separate identities because they sounded alike, so I had
| to map half my family to Harry Potter characters. With
| Google/Apple, no such problem - just say "Call Firstname Last
| name" and it works every time.
|
| The system integrates with whatever background noise you want -
| music, podcasts, and so on. It makes everything automatic and
| painless.
|
| Android Auto gave new life to my old cars
| dTal wrote:
| >It knows that I have an appointment on my calendar in half
| an hour and suggests that as a destination without me having
| to retype it. It knows that in the mornings my most likely
| destination is "work" and my most likely evening destination
| is "home". It knows what brewery I like to go to on Saturday
| afternoons and suggests that too.
|
| I know it makes me terribly old-fashioned, but god that's
| horrifying.
| SirLuxuryYacht wrote:
| Aside from being quite creepy, wouldn't one already know
| how to get to their favorite brewery?
|
| I'm similar to the parent; I have a "dumb" head unit with
| an aux cord + dongle. I suppose one benefit would be if it
| could suggest faster routes around traffic or detours.
| Jtsummers wrote:
| I'm not sure why it's horrifying. Assuming the data is on
| your device and that's what it's learning from, at least
| with respect to appointments, this was also an objective of
| every PDA and productivity software ever made. To help you
| plan your day without having to sit down and _plan_ your
| day. Throw in data, it tells you what you need to know and
| when. Regarding suggesting destinations based on habits it
| 's only (potentially) horrifying if this means the data is
| going to some Google/Apple/Other server and projections
| coming from it.
| dTal wrote:
| >it's only (potentially) horrifying if this means the
| data is going to some Google/Apple/Other server and
| projections coming from it.
|
| Yes, well that's exactly what it's doing.
|
| A local-only solution would of course be a different
| story. But even if such a thing existed, with suitably
| ironclad security for such incredibly sensitive data, the
| mere _creation_ of that data is a liability that many
| might opt out of if they had the choice - like taking
| nude pictures, or logging your location at all times.
| Arainach wrote:
| You absolutely have that choice.
|
| I have Location History turned off in my Google Account
| and this feature still works. It might work better if I
| let it use history, not sure - but it absolutely works
| without it. I do have Search History turned on, so I
| could hypothesize that it's able to use things I've
| searched for in the past at certain times, but it's not
| using my location.
| anotherman554 wrote:
| I would be surprised if Google's technology works without
| it being stored on Google's server.
| battles wrote:
| You can't get to work or your favorite bar without a computer
| navigating you?
| Arainach wrote:
| I know 5 or 6 given paths. Which one is fastest depends on
| all sorts of things. Is there traffic? Has an accident on
| the highway brought things to a standstill? Is going North
| around the lake slow enough that the toll lanes are worth
| it?
|
| Even when I know where I'm going, it's very useful to have
| an accurate ETA. If I get a call, I can tell someone quite
| precisely when I expect to arrive.
| Jtsummers wrote:
| Traffic reports. Saved me hours a month (usually 1-2 hours
| each time) when I got rerouted around a bad accident on my
| primary route home at my previous job. It was the main
| highway connecting the area near my office to the town I
| actually lived in. When there was an accident, it was 30-90
| minutes of being stuck without moving, depending on if
| there were serious injuries/fatalities (versus a fender
| bender). With a notification before I left the office [0] I
| could choose the longer but not backed up route.
|
| [0] I usually left halfway through rush hour, most
| accidents seemed to occur just before I left but I never
| crunched the numbers so just an observation.
| markdog12 wrote:
| I just got a vehicle that supports it, but when my Pixel 3
| tries to connect, the AA UI shows briefly for a second, then
| fails, every time. Any tips? I've tried over USB and
| wireless, same result.
| maccard wrote:
| Mines wired only but my issue seemed to be cable related. I
| bought an anker powerline II usb c to a cable based on
| reddits recommendation and haven't had any issues since!
| Arainach wrote:
| I've certainly seen issues with cables before (even ones
| that seem to half work), as mentioned in another reply. My
| first step in debugging would be to unpair the devices (on
| both sides) and try to set them up again to see if that
| helps.
| jagger27 wrote:
| Might have to go to a dealer to get a firmware upgrade.
| leesalminen wrote:
| Not the parent but in my '18 Audi I think I called the
| dealer and they did some kind of software update which
| resolved the issue.
| noelrock wrote:
| Just to +1 this - a major reason we picked the car we picked
| last year was because it had AA. Now, you can upgrade most
| any system to it, but given we were buying a new vehicle
| anyway? It's just.... superior to any in-car system, and I'm
| not even an Android user !
| caymanjim wrote:
| If you like that stuff, go nuts, but I don't see much benefit
| to any of it.
|
| I rarely drive anywhere that I don't already know how to get
| to. I certainly don't need a navigation system to get to
| work, home, my favorite bar, the homes of friends or family,
| the local supermarket or other stores I frequent, etc. I only
| need navigation a handful of times a year, and even then, I
| usually wish I'd reviewed and memorized the directions ahead
| of time rather than relied on blindly following step-by-step
| directions.
|
| I don't need or want voice control of the basic car systems.
| Give me traditional knobs and sliders. The tactile feedback
| is better and less distracting than any visual feedback.
| Voice commands have gotten pretty good, but I still find I
| have to repeat myself often enough to be frustrated. And why
| should I have to turn the radio down in order to adjust the
| air conditioning?
|
| Touchscreen displays in cars are unnecessary and distracting.
| You should never be looking at one. You shouldn't need a
| mount for your phone because you shouldn't be looking at your
| phone. You shouldn't need a touchscreen because you should be
| using knobs and sliders and other controls that are easy to
| find without looking and provide tactile feedback.
|
| There's no need to view, listen to, or reply to messages
| while you're driving. It's dangerous, even hands-free. You
| shouldn't even be having voice conversations while driving.
| Sure, we all do it from time to time, but it should be rare
| and under exceptional circumstances. It's dangerous and
| unnecessary. Pay attention to the damn road.
| ntsplnkv2 wrote:
| Maps on AC is a game changer for me. Anytime I've never
| been to a place I use it, and I sometimes use it for other
| things like if I'm in an unfamiliar place and want to stop
| for food or find a store. Simple voice command. New route,
| done. Also the real time traffic updates is huge - so many
| times now I check just in case there is an accident that
| will cause a huge delay.
|
| I do agree that for car functions I like physical knobs,
| but for infotainment? being able to say "hey siri play X"
| is awesome.
|
| > There's no need to view, listen to, or reply to messages
| while you're driving. It's dangerous, even hands-free. You
| shouldn't even be having voice conversations while driving.
| Sure, we all do it from time to time, but it should be rare
| and under exceptional circumstances. It's dangerous and
| unnecessary. Pay attention to the damn road.
|
| You know people are going to do it, so it should be made
| less dangerous, no?
| Arainach wrote:
| >I rarely drive anywhere that I don't already know how to
| get to. I certainly don't need a navigation system to get
| to work, home, my favorite bar, the homes of friends or
| family, the local supermarket or other stores I frequent,
| etc. I only need navigation a handful of times a year, and
| even then, I usually wish I'd reviewed and memorized the
| directions ahead of time rather than relied on blindly
| following step-by-step directions.
|
| This just means that you're blindly following older,
| possibly out-of-date directions. What happens when you
| discover that a road is closed? Do you pull over, pull out
| your maps, and try to guess what the next best path is,
| possibly involving a fair amount of backtracking? I've done
| that before - I drove east to west across the US with just
| printed maps - and it's not anything I look back on with
| nostalgia.
| caymanjim wrote:
| I can't recall the last time I drove somewhere and was
| impacted by a road closure that wasn't clearly marked
| with a detour, or there wasn't an immediately-obvious
| alternate route. If you're not blindly following GPS
| navigation, and pay attention to signs and what's going
| on around you, it's not an issue.
|
| I use Google Maps navigation from time to time and I get
| that it can be helpful negotiating new territory. Of all
| the newfangled gadgets in cars, that's the one that has
| the most value, but it should be a supplemental tool; you
| shouldn't be lost and hopeless without it.
| Arainach wrote:
| Your experiences don't generalize to everyone. Just
| yesterday I drove home from an errand without navigation
| and discovered that the bridge across the lake was closed
| in one direction. This wasn't signed well at all and
| meant that I lost 10-15 minutes turning around and taking
| another route. Being able to have the car tell me when a
| turn is approaching rather than having to look at every
| street sign along the way wondering if this is my turn
| keeps me focused on the road and prevents the worries of
| "did I miss it?". It's strictly an improvement.
| speed_spread wrote:
| I know my city like the back of my hand and can chart my
| own course across it on a whim thank you. I don't just
| decide where I'm going, but I also choose how to get
| there. Sometimes the course is more important than the
| destination.
|
| Reliance on online nav systems is an excuse for poor
| roadwork planning and lazy accident management. I want
| robots and helicopters to take of the roads as I know
| them, not constantly updated paths that need to be
| tracked. Learned mental map of the territory should
| prevail. Else we'll end up being floated over non-
| euclidian chaotic trajectories for reasons of economic
| efficiency.
| robocat wrote:
| I prefer to plan my own routes. But I sometimes use maps
| before I set out because:
|
| 1. Map apps give duration information about different
| routes - this is interesting as it calibrates my own mental
| model of potential routes. However I also often optimise my
| routes for things apart from time.
|
| 2. I am in a hurry, and map apps are better at avoiding
| roadworks and traffic jams than my own mental model. I
| ignored a route suggestion the other day because I thought
| I knew better, which delayed me by 15 minutes because a
| flyover I wanted to use was temporarily closed.
|
| 3. Map Apps are great when I am travelling across town on a
| route I would rarely drive, so I am unfamiliar with the
| possible routes (e.g. I often go to A, and I often go to B,
| but I rarely go from A to B).
|
| 4. Edit: and map apps are fantastically safer in cities or
| towns you have no familiarity with. You can pay attention
| to your driving and not be distracted looking for street
| names or other route waypoints.
|
| > It's dangerous and unnecessary. Pay attention to the damn
| road.
|
| Opinion or fact? My opinion is that voice directions makes
| it possible to pay attention to the traffic, and I am not
| stressed, and I don't have to have uncertainty about road
| choices (which is safer). It certainly makes looking for
| unknown street numbers or businesses safer - scanning for
| street numbers or business frontages is very distracting.
|
| Use your tools sensibly and safely - don't use them like a
| fool.
| unixhero wrote:
| Waze. You can run Waze.
| rblatz wrote:
| it basically extends certain apps (music, maps, phone,
| messaging) to the car display. Allowing you to control them
| like they are native apps on the car.
| prower wrote:
| Dammit I'm old. I'm sorry if I do the old man barking at
| clouds.
|
| But.
|
| How's different or better than this 9$ smartphone mount?
| https://www.amazon.com/AUKEY-Car-Phone-Mount-
| Compatible/dp/B...
|
| All this compromises and costs just for a slightly bigger
| screen? While I'm driving?
| mortenjorck wrote:
| Superficially it's a bigger screen, but the real difference
| is in a user interface designed for minimal driver
| distraction.
|
| I've only used CarPlay, but the messaging app is a perfect
| example. The phone's native messaging interface is of
| course inappropriate for safe driving, being primarily
| visual. CarPlay's messaging app only gives you a glanceable
| list of contacts, and you tap one to dictate a message,
| which is then also read back to you for confirmation (no
| message text is ever displayed on the screen). I've had
| entire text conversations without taking my eyes off the
| road.
|
| For maps and music, the difference may be somewhat less
| profound, but the same design principles combined with a
| larger screen that equates to fewer milliseconds scanning
| for information or steadying your finger to touch a small
| button, still have a significant effect in keeping driver
| app use as safe as possible.
| saalweachter wrote:
| I would also note that (Android Auto, at least) will stop
| you from doing a number of things.
|
| When the car is parked, you can use the on-screen
| keyboard to type in your searches; driving, voice search
| only. If you scroll too deep in your Audible library,
| past the first five or ten audiobooks, it will be all,
| "no, you can't browse your media library while driving,
| what the hell is wrong with you".
|
| It's annoying, but annoying in the kind of way that keeps
| you from getting in the habit of distracting yourself
| while driving.
| caoilte wrote:
| I don't know about America but I recently discovered that
| using any system not built into the car is illegal in the
| UK.
|
| The fact is that a lot of people use such a mount anyway,
| but they are technically breaking the law and can be sent
| fines (eg if spotted by a motorway/freeway automated camera
| system).
|
| It kind of makes sense.
|
| Devices built into a vehicle have to meet safety
| specifications and it can be proved that they have. There
| is no such reassurance on a dash mounted phone. It could
| easily switch mode and distract you and cause an accident.
| jon-wood wrote:
| The bigger screen is nice, but the benefit is more around
| proper integration with in-car controls such as the stalk
| on the wheel for changing tracks etc, and often in-car
| microphones for voice assistants and hands free which have
| been tuned to work in that specific vehicle.
| PantaloonFlames wrote:
| Yes, a bigger screen but not "slightly bigger". 15"
| diagonal screen is significantly larger than 6" diagonal.
| And it's built in, no goofy clamps or mounts protruding
| into the cabin.
| kfarr wrote:
| Agree with you, the only benefit I see is that Android Auto
| "uses the built-in screen" or allows you to use the "built-
| in controls in the steering wheel." That's it.
|
| It sounds like a $9 smartphone mount and a mini headphone
| to cassette adapter (or FM audio adapter) you can get 95%
| of the benefits in any vehicle manufactured since 1980.
| mplewis wrote:
| The smartphone mount IS the compromise. CarPlay is the
| ideal.
| indymike wrote:
| There's more to it than just the screen size. Voice
| commands work better, phone apps can use the display, plus
| you can use the smartphone screen for one thing and the
| built in for another (eg. media player controls on the
| phone screen and maps on the dashboard screen). It's
| actually pretty nice.
| Rebelgecko wrote:
| That mount blocks your AC vents and most infotainment
| screens are 2x bigger or more than a phone.
|
| I have a similar (but magnetic) mount in my car, and if I'm
| not careful my phone will fall off and cause a distraction.
| NikolaeVarius wrote:
| Phones are not automobile rated. For example, while driving
| in the summer, I've had issues with my phone overheating
| and shutting down. Infotainment systems are rated to not do
| that.
| izacus wrote:
| How do you safely use that phone mount to switch from
| Spotify to a PocketCasts podcast while driving on the
| highway?
|
| Because on my Mazda I can do all that with the physical
| builtin car controls. Or I can just tap the voice control
| button and say it.
|
| Also the navigation on a 7" dashboard mounted screen is
| significantly more glanceable than squinting at a small
| phone screen.
|
| It's all a great benefit for the 8+ hour highway drives I
| need to regularly do.
| notJim wrote:
| I had a mount like that, but in the winter time when I was
| blasting the heat, it would overheat my phone so much that
| it would stop charging and eventually have to turn off. I
| switched to the suction cup kind, and they would work for a
| few months and then the mount would stop sticking. Having
| something built in would be nice.
| monkeywork wrote:
| Android Auto as an infotrainment system has been a major game
| changer for me. Being able to have a large screen GPS that is
| updated in realtime (google maps / waze), access to all my
| audio apps, etc.
|
| Yes technically you could mount your phone up but that always
| seemed to be a hassle, smaller screen, mount points were rarely
| as good, have to have charging cables running across dash.
| [deleted]
| spinchange wrote:
| Did Android become Ford's platform or did Ford become Google's?
| speedgoose wrote:
| Polestar also runs Android.
| hootbootscoot wrote:
| This is the best comment I've read in weeks!
| williesleg wrote:
| They are so fucked. Tesla has years on them, at least 10+
| julius wrote:
| It calms my mind to not have a complicated connected computer on
| my CANBUS.
|
| Old car + 10$ device channeling the phones audio via bluetooth to
| the radio + extra screen for parking cameras is a nice enough
| setup.
|
| Not sure what would make me choose a computer car. Besides drive-
| me-home-drunk mode, of course.
| sriku wrote:
| ... and we'll have no idea who's getting access to our recorded
| location, and what other information about the driving systems is
| being transmitted where else.
| Shivetya wrote:
| That last bullet point is key, Ford wants to advertise to you and
| likely sell your attention to others. Trade in alerts? Oh joy.
|
| In other words, they are jealous of OnStar and the only question
| remains is, how much will Ford charge for other than the most
| basic of services by incorporating Android into their cars.
|
| Do not assume what they are adding is free of a monthly charge
| tvjunky wrote:
| Agree but this is bigger than an Onstar feature clone. This is
| data. Now there is always on driving data from everyone with a
| new ford, not just a Ford AND AA plugged in.
| baskire wrote:
| So does this mean your car can be deprecated?
|
| 6 year deal is substantially less than the life of a car.
|
| I can't say anything great about old android devices. Large
| numbers left on older versions with security flaws
| giantg2 wrote:
| I like Android, but I really don't think it belongs as an
| integral part of a car. I also don't like cars having
| connectivity with other devices or the network, but that's
| another tangent.
|
| I like older car control panels - knobs, switches, buttons. You
| can feel what you're doing so you're not looking at a screen
| instead of the road. That's not to say I don't like technology in
| cars. Voice commands for playing songs and a HUD for critical
| data (speed, RPM, tires, warnings, etc) are awesome.
| dingaling wrote:
| It's not really integral, at most it's a node on the CANBUS and
| usually it's not even that, just a head unit wired to the
| steering wheel controls and a built-in USB port.
|
| You can rip it out in an afternoon with a pair of DIN keys and
| a screwdriver.
| giantg2 wrote:
| I guess what I'm getting at is that if it's part of the
| CANBUS, it can be an enrtypoint for malicious software.
|
| Sure you can pull it out. I had OnStar in a car and I was
| able to disconnect it by pulling the connection between the
| cell/gps card and the reat of the car. It's still a pain to
| have to do that when buying a car.
| rblatz wrote:
| Just another iteration of Ford not getting it. No one wants their
| crappy infotainment system, it doesn't matter if it is Microsoft
| or Google's code.
| hootbootscoot wrote:
| Wow, I guess I know which mark of cars to avoid in the future.
|
| I'll likely get downvoted for what amounts to a negative review
| of a popular Google product but I find that Android is
| frustrating to use, hangs in the middle of tasks like typing the
| word "the" and has extremely dark UI patterns, like the word
| "backup" in one's photos immediately starting a cloud upload of
| what could be gigabvtes that even a power cycle won't stop.
| (there's no "stop" nor "x" on this upload either, and one wonders
| where "backup to SD" card fits into this all...)
|
| Seriously, I can't tell if the ultimate Windows editions since XP
| were deliberately designed to throw away decades of power-user
| "ah yes, there's the Start Menu Button" knowledge, and by the
| same token, I can't tell if Google is merely incompetent or
| helping sling hardware and dataplans. "Sorry sir, this phone that
| has 6 processing cores and more ram than 4 90's computers that
| ran Skype and some IM clients just fine, along with an IDE, a
| music player etc. this phone just simply isn't advanced enough to
| handle our material design concepts" or?
| jaywalk wrote:
| Ford can't seem to figure out that their infotainment is a buggy
| mess because they insist on developing it in house and they are
| completely incapable of developing quality software.
|
| The last time Sync was good was when Microsoft handled the full
| stack. As soon as Ford decided to put their own software on top
| of Windows Automotive (MyFord Touch) was when it all fell apart.
| donretag wrote:
| I find it curious that the headline was written to say "Forc
| cars" when Ford has pretty much exited the car market and will
| focus (no pun intended) on the truck market.
|
| Ford vehicles would be more accurate. I forget the Ford lineup,
| but I do not think they have lower cost trucks.
| somerandomqaguy wrote:
| Only in the US; the Focus and Fiesta are still being
| manufactured for the European market.
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