[HN Gopher] Studying the impact of U.S. immigration barriers on ...
___________________________________________________________________
Studying the impact of U.S. immigration barriers on global
knowledge production
Author : elsewhen
Score : 140 points
Date : 2021-01-31 18:59 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (privpapers.ssrn.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (privpapers.ssrn.com)
| lmilcin wrote:
| Listen, this isn't all that difficult to understand.
|
| Migrating to US is much higher effort than migrating practically
| anywhere else in the world. You don't expend that effort if you
| don't plan on making the best of it.
|
| Also US makes it very hard or impossible to migrate if you are
| not already high earner in your country of origin. Being high
| earner would normally correlate with being productive, at least
| when it comes to jobs requiring high level of expertise, ie.
| practically the only ones that US lets in.
| Waterluvian wrote:
| > Migrating to US is much higher effort than migrating
| practically anywhere else in the world.
|
| This is a surprising statement to me. Maybe it's true. But my
| understanding (which might be wrong) is that it's considerably
| more difficult to receive legal status in most other OECD
| nations.
| freshbob wrote:
| What's you definition of "legal status"? It's not like this
| article talks about people coming to the US illegally.
|
| Do you mean settled status? Regardless, that is easier as
| well (see for instance the guy posting about the Blue Card a
| few comments up).
| jounker wrote:
| As American living abroad, I assure you that the US has an
| almost absurdly burdensome immigration system.
| jmartrican wrote:
| I know a lot of poor immigrants in my home town in NJ (my
| family for example when we got here). I know there are
| countries in Europe/Asia that are much harder than the US to
| get into.
|
| IMHO the US is more about making money than it is about where
| you come from or your ethnicity or your nationality. We just
| want to get paid. I know in the news you see a lot of parts of
| the US that makes it seem like they do not want immigrants, but
| I think the truth is that the US welcomes immigrants more than
| other countries.
| quickthrower2 wrote:
| Title change? "Why U.S. Immigration Barriers Matter for the
| Global Advancement of Science"
| exodus04 wrote:
| I am a non immigrant. I just came here to study and want to
| return once I am done. But one thing I can say for sure, back in
| my home country I never worked as hard as I did in America. In
| America, I worked my ass off, I feel like its the robust
| education system that made me this person. I enjoy
| studying/working more than going outside and partying. I feel
| America helped me discover more about myself than I would have
| ever learned in another country. I thank America and its
| predecessors who created such a beautiful country.
| boxmonster wrote:
| You may have noticed that people in America are very critical
| of America. Victor Davis Hanson explains it here:
|
| "Critics of the West: From Tacitus to Michael Moore"
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bao_YeH14RM
|
| Basically he says we have the luxury of time and leisure to be
| self-critical and we believe we can achieve a utopian ideal but
| we fall short in so many ways.
|
| Some people do not like VDH because he's a conservative Trump
| supporter, but that doesn't make him a bad historian.
| ruph123 wrote:
| Americans are not the only ones being critical of America.
| Quite the opposite: My perception is rather that Americans
| have very high tendency to assume they are the greatest
| country in the world. And because of mostly learning about
| their own country and history in school it is harder to hold
| themselves to higher standards and compare with other nations
| besides the size of your army or the worth of the biggest
| companies (e.g. when you get cancer and lose your job, you
| somehow must pay for that treatment that is just how it is,
| better have something saved up. Whereas in many other
| developed nations that goes much differently)
|
| Also regarding to GP: "working more" != "being more
| productive"
| [deleted]
| edmundsauto wrote:
| I agree that working more does not necessarily result in
| being more productive, but is there anything more specific
| you can add? Sometimes working more does mean being more
| productive. Sometimes it results in less output per hour,
| and depending on that haircut, can net at more or less
| productivity. Sometimes the working more is a prerequisite
| to learning something that you can leverage later on.
|
| What was your point in mentioning that to OP? It seems like
| a bit of an aphorism that doesn't add much to the
| conversation except to dull GP's point.
| ruph123 wrote:
| For example in my country you go to work, eat lunch but
| you mostly work. In the US what I have experienced is a
| lot more "living" at the company and everyone stays long
| but people are not often actually getting work done. But
| staying late makes you look good. To me: if I go to work
| for 8h I might have 6 productive hours if even. If I
| would go to work for 10 hours I might not be much more
| productive. Problem solving sometimes involves time to
| come up with a solution from your subconscious (e.g.
| under the shower)
| frankydp wrote:
| work - "activity involving mental or physical effort done
| in order to achieve a purpose or result"
|
| Parent seems be trying to conflate/dull definitions in
| support of the efficiency decline curve related to
| fatigue or the inverse efficiency incline curve related
| to expertise. Most likely in an effort to negate the
| value of hard work or working more. Which is generally an
| argument for expert thought workers that want to think
| less in exchange for the hard work they already did in
| learning and keep the same compensation. ie elitism
| throwaway3699 wrote:
| Well, my understanding as an outsider is the reason America
| believes it's the best is the capacity for self reflection,
| experimentation _and_ change. It has huge problems and if
| they can solve them it reflects well on us as a species.
| plandis wrote:
| > My perception is rather that Americans have very high
| tendency to assume they are the greatest country in the
| world. And because of mostly learning about their own
| country and history in school it is harder to hold
| themselves to higher standards
|
| Anecdotally, as an American, I meet many more Americans
| that are critical of America compared to Americans that
| regard America as the greatest country in the world.
|
| But, hey, I'm just an ignorant American whose only lived
| here my whole life and was actually educated in the US so
| it's not like I have any insight into what Americans
| learn/don't learn and common attitudes of normal Americans.
| cccc4all wrote:
| But, are they paid 6x the salary?
|
| If not, why not? What is depressing the salary levels at 6x
| productivity gains? Who are benefiting from gains in productivity
| and depressed salary?
| Aunche wrote:
| The US has many of the most prestigious universities in the
| world. Relatively few citizens want to get into academia because
| our brightest minds would rather pursue more lucrative careers.
| As a result, our elite instructions end up recruiting the
| brightest minds from around the globe instead.
| pdevr wrote:
| Just to be clear, after a quick read: This paper applies to
| science and innovation only. Citation-weighted publications are
| used to compare.
|
| There are countries where migrants are much more productive than
| the U.S. in non-STEM areas, but it is essentially accomplished by
| means of almost-forced-labor, and the working conditions are
| atrocious[1].
|
| [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25969442
|
| Edit: Original title of this submission was "Migrants to the US
| are up to 6 times more productive than migrants elsewhere", until
| dang edited it.
| newacct583 wrote:
| Title is using the wrong word. The paper is about "US Immigration
| Restrictions" and it's about knowledge workers, that is normal
| legal immigrants with visas (e.g. H1B, etc...).
|
| The term "migrant" is generally used to refer to unskilled
| workers entering the country to follow jobs in temporary or
| seasonal industries. Very often this therefore becomes a
| euphemism for "illegal immigrant". That's not what this paper is
| studying.
| baybal2 wrote:
| Measuring productivity in money is like measuring car's
| performance by its fuel consumption.
| [deleted]
| semanticsbitch wrote:
| And in the US, they push you through a system that doesn't
| matter. You can get great grades and have goals and aspirations,
| but when skills don't matter, it is pointless to try. All that
| exists is nepotism and family, the latter which most people rely
| on.
|
| But most people don't even have that. America should read, "Don't
| bother trying unless you have family that will help and a dick to
| suck."
| drocer88 wrote:
| U.S. per capita GDP ~= $60000
|
| World per capita GDP ~= $10000
|
| US/World ~= 6
|
| So, yeah, labor performed in the US is 6x world labor.
| dan-robertson wrote:
| I don't think that is the measure of productivity measured by
| the paper. It seems more interested in science and mathematics
| research.
| [deleted]
| vaidhy wrote:
| I have been having similar discussions with my friends. My key
| takeaway is that if you are in the top 5 or 10%, US is a great
| place for you. Every place is open and your hard work (and a bit
| of luck) will take you a long way up. However, if you are
| average, US sucks for you. There is just so much burden to just
| keep working, even more so, if you have family. Between lack of
| public transport, healthcare, exploitative workplace and strong
| victim blaming attitude, you carry on just hoping that your kids
| will become one of the top 10%. For every example of successful
| immigrant, I think about the thousands of farm workers and hard
| laborers who make a trip here, and struggle to make a good life.
| And yes, they make more money that they make in their homeland..
| but that does not make their current situation better.
| rayiner wrote:
| Are any of your friends immigrants in America? Because "public
| transportation" has never come up in any conversation I have
| had with an average immigrant.
|
| This is an anecdote but I think it's illustrative. I met a cab
| driver in Texas who immigrated from Morocco. He was extolling
| the virtues of Texas. He and his cab driver friends had been
| able to buy 3BR houses with pools on their cab driver incomes,
| put their kids in decent schools, etc. If you go to East Texas,
| you see tons of working class Latinos who work solid jobs in
| the booming oil and chemical industries there. It's not fancy,
| but you see brand new strip malls, shiny new pickup trucks, and
| big families everywhere. Tons of middle class prosperity among
| the immigrant population.
|
| I'm from Bangladesh, and while my parents immigrated to the
| U.S. under pretty good circumstances (my dad has a white collar
| job), not everyone in my family did. And their view of
| achieving "the American Dream" is very much in line with what
| this Moroccan cab driver was saying. They want a big house and
| good schools for their kids. America provides that, including
| to immigrants. 75% of lawful immigrants have health insurance,
| mostly through their employer, or through
| Medicare/Medicaid/ACA. (The rate is over 90% for native-born
| Americans.) The median size of a new house in the United States
| is over 2,600 square feet. (Half of Latinos own their own
| homes, despite a median age of just 30, over 14 years younger
| than the median age of whites.) The median price of a new car
| in America is $38,000. This is what most Americans, and most
| working-class immigrants to America, consider the "American
| Dream." "Public transportation" is something that only a
| minority of college-educated elite actually think is a good
| thing.
| jbullock35 wrote:
| This paper examines only those who are extraordinarily able:
| Nobel Prize winners, Fields Medalists, and International Math
| Olympiad medalists.
|
| It's interesting, but the current HN headline ("Migrants to the
| US are up to 6 times more productive than migrants elsewhere")
| seems misleading. The paper is taking up < 0.01% of "migrants to
| the U.S."
| CyberRabbi wrote:
| Thats true. I would like to know if the demographics of those
| high performing migrants are representative of the US's entire
| migrant population. If not, then it's critically more accurate
| to say that _some specific_ migrant groups are 6 times more
| productive than migrants elsewhere.
| double_descent wrote:
| One of those groups is not like the other :) Thanks anyway, but
| IMO medals (even Gold) does not make migrating to the US
| easier.
|
| As for the paper, why doesn't it compare US citizen
| performance? The Team Selection Test is pretty competitive, and
| I guess there are at least 20 US citizens each year who are of
| similar skill.
|
| I beat 1/6 members of the US team at my IMO showing, but I'm
| pretty sure every single USA TST participant has a brighter
| future ahead than most of the general cohort of "IMO
| medallists", including me.
| notahacker wrote:
| Also, the 'six times more productive' stat turns out to mean
| _Math Olympiad medallists who migrate to the US are six times
| more likely to get a speaking slot at the International
| Congress of Mathematicians than people who stay at home_ ; an
| impressive accomplishment but hardly what most people would
| call 'productivity'. On the slightly less arcane measure of
| weighted academic citations, migrants to the US have twice as
| many as migrants to other countries, or four times as many as
| those who stay at home.
|
| Or put another way: _moving to country with best funded and
| most prestigious research institutions turns out to be useful
| if you want a high-profile academic career_
| Berobero wrote:
| > migrants to the US have twice as many [citation-weighted
| papers] as migrants to other countries, or four times as many
| as those who stay at home
|
| Nitpicky, but... this is also only for IMO medalists (from
| 1980 to 2000) publishing papers in mathematics (up until
| 2017). It's pretty darned specific, even as it pertains to
| academics. Even as it pertains to mathematicians, it's a
| single snapshot of somewhat recent history.
| dang wrote:
| The submitted title broke the HN guidelines against
| editorializing titles. Cherry-picking a detail from an article
| and making that the title is a form of editorializing--the most
| common form, in fact.
|
| I've replaced it with the first sentence of the abstract, which
| does a slightly more accurate and neutral job of expressing
| what the article is about than the primary title does.
|
| " _Please use the original title, unless it is misleading or
| linkbait; don 't editorialize._"
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| [deleted]
| 2ion wrote:
| This is not difficult, looking at the kind of migration e.g.
| Germany has in the millions. When taking averages and means of
| migrant KPI over the migrant population at large, any good will
| be cancelled out by the negative aspects of 3rd world pauper
| migration. Because the subpopulations are vastly differently
| sized.
|
| Any 1st world country with more tightly controlled migration
| should do better.
| rapind wrote:
| Clickbait drivel.
| nostromo wrote:
| Edit: thanks to the mods for fixing the title.
|
| More productive in "knowledge production" according to "novel
| survey data" and "hand-curated life-histories of International
| Math Olympiad (IMO) medalists."
|
| The headline makes this sound like a broad finding, but in fact
| it's very narrow.
| TeeMassive wrote:
| I'm from Canada, and it is not surprising, especially when it
| comes to STEM fields. The thing most people do not get about
| immigrating to Canada is that it is VERY hard. Good luck getting
| here with no marketable skills or without being a refugee.
|
| As a White person who grew up in a White rural area, my peers
| simply didn't realize the value of education compared to what
| I've seen from immigrants and children of immigrants. This is
| also true in bigger cities now that I live those now. "I'll just
| get into a trade" was a common saying, fortunately I saw the lack
| of wisdom in that and studied CS.
| jariel wrote:
| PISA standardized testing (I think 15 year olds) differentiates
| between migrants and non migrants.
|
| In the Anglosphere aka US, UK, Can, Au, Nz - migrants do only a
| little bit worse on standardized test than local kids, but once
| accommodating for income, migrants to a little better than local
| kids.
|
| Everywhere else, migrants to far below the regular average.
|
| Everywhere in Europe especially, they are far below.
|
| People don't often make this distinction but the Anglo world
| tends to be far more 'open'. If you can speak English, that's
| fine.
|
| In places like Germany and Sweden, irrespective of how educated
| someone might be, there are larger barriers to integration and
| migrants are often social outsiders.
|
| This isn't driven mostly by 'hate' or anything deeply nefarious,
| rather it's by strong association of 'in-group' dynamics.
|
| The Paradox is that in the US and even in the UK (i.e. Brexit)
| people are lambasted as 'xenophobic' by certain parts of the
| political spectrum when this is demonstrably false. UK/US are
| actually much more likely to believe in the economic value of
| migrants than elsewhere. They are generally welcoming places,
| however, due to larger rates of migration - much more existential
| discussions arise.
|
| Of course Anglosphere countries are also much more likley to be
| aspirational targets for migration in general (though it's
| clearly not always true: kids Maghreb especially want to got to
| France, and Germany/Sweden were popular among Syrian refugees).
| digdigdag wrote:
| The way I see it: the more skilled labor we can import, the
| better. The U.S. owes its success largely due to migration (be it
| through merchants, slaves, or otherwise).
|
| I don't agree with the notion that we must "close off" the
| country in order to preserve said success.
| [deleted]
| almost_usual wrote:
| > I don't agree with the notion that we must "close off" the
| country in order to preserve said success.
|
| I would argue our success would significantly decline. A
| majority of Americans believe they're entitled to the lifestyle
| and resources they have. A lot of immigrants from poorer areas
| understand that's false.
|
| It's why you see hard working immigrants being successful and
| their kids riding their coattails.
| Retric wrote:
| Immigration is self selecting. People with significant
| developmental disabilities for example are vastly less likely
| to immigrate. But, that says little about the genetics of the
| population so in the next generation regression to the mean
| kicks in.
| almost_usual wrote:
| > But, that says little about the genetics of the
| population so in the next generation regression to the mean
| kicks in.
|
| True but I do think America has a "dumbing down" privilege
| effect on the population. A lot of Americans are racist,
| angry, and think they're entitled to their way of life.
|
| They don't realize they need to do well in school because
| the high paying jobs they're competing for everyone in the
| world is also competing for.
|
| If you're against immigration you're limiting your
| competitive edge and someone else in the world will put you
| of business (probably in China).
| Retric wrote:
| It's not about smarts. Funding, culture, infrastructure, and
| institutions mean on average someone in say India would be more
| productive moved to the US when doing just about anything.
|
| Advantages like cleaner air don't care about how smart someone
| is, their useful across the bord.
| joshum97 wrote:
| I'd push it one step further and include "unskilled" labor too.
| The value added to society is measurably positive no matter the
| skill level of the immigrant.
| iguy wrote:
| Lots of "unskilled" immigrants certainly find useful things
| to do. And live better lives than they would have at home.
|
| But I think the counter-argument is something like this.
| Countries with an unlimited pool of low-skill labor have a
| lot of bad features. One of these is a class gap, between
| haves and have-nots, who feel they don't share common
| interests. Another is that the incentive to invent ways to
| reduce labor input is reduced, why bother if it's cheap? And
| inventing ways to do more per person is precisely what
| economic growth is.
| Kharvok wrote:
| Migrants from where? It seems to reference only studies by
| selecting for the "cream of the crop" from other developed
| nations.
| [deleted]
| xwdv wrote:
| Yes, because you have to work a lot harder to make it in the U.S.
| than other countries, where you could mostly slack off and be
| taken care of by robust welfare systems.
|
| But also, the rewards for working harder in the US and having the
| right bit of luck are much higher than other countries. If you're
| an immigrant and you're looking to move somewhere for a YOLO shot
| at a good life, the U.S. is still the best game in town.
| oblio wrote:
| And if you miss, you're punished like you're living in a third
| world country.
|
| And it's not hard to miss, it's quite easy actually.
|
| Plus, despite all the propaganda:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Gatsby_curve#/media/File...
|
| The US has much lower intergenerational social mobility than
| other developed countries. So it's much more likely that if
| you're born poor, you'll stay poor for the rest of your life.
| [deleted]
| mucholove wrote:
| You're clearly not from a Latin American country. I am both
| Latin American and European. The experience in Latin America is
| that you can't make it no matter how hard you try. So much
| paperwork. And you have to pre-pay taxes! (Anticipos) I am also
| European. And sure Spain has much bigger safety. But Latin
| American inherits its dysfunctional bureaucracy from Spain. UK
| / US culture is free and unleashed.
| MattGaiser wrote:
| > And you have to pre-pay taxes!
|
| Before you make money, you need to pay tax?
| nottorp wrote:
| > Before you make money, you need to pay tax?
|
| In countries with corrupt and/or incompetent tax
| authorities, they try to introduce a fixed tax amount / pay
| in advance scheme for ... reasons ... where they can.
|
| Usually they squeeze freelancers first. Or random liberal
| occupations. In Romania freelancers and landlords have to
| prepay taxes based on last years' income, for example. With
| the exception of some kinds of freelancers that they just
| gave up on and make them pay a fixed amount per year.
| Freelancers prepay taxes in Greece too, as far as i know.
| anonfornoreason wrote:
| You have to prepay in the USA as well based on previous
| year taxes. It's called making safe harbor, and there are
| penalties if you don't.
| oblio wrote:
| So I guess you're saying it's much easier to be an
| entrepreneur in the UK/US. Aren't most people employees,
| though?
| DoctorNick wrote:
| The US has a uniquely exploitative work visa program and
| undocumented immigrants are hired at slave wages. I wouldn't call
| this an accomplishment.
| iguy wrote:
| 2nd line of TFA: "among Nobel Prize winners and Fields
| Medalists, [im]migrants [...]"
|
| These people might be under-paid, relative to silicon valley,
| but "slave wages" is pushing it. And while they are not a group
| known for being really on top of their paperwork, few of them
| cross borders illegally. Unless you mean the ones who escaped
| the USSR without permission.
| bpodgursky wrote:
| Undocumented wages are yes, low, but calling them "slave wages"
| indicates you really do not understand the depths of inhumanity
| and cruelty associated with actual slavery.
|
| There are no "slave wages" because slaves did not get wages. I
| know it's a bit of rhetoric now, but it's IMO important to
| remember the distinction between being underpaid, and being
| literal property.
| Tinyyy wrote:
| I make $400k/yr as an immigrant, and boy do I feel exploited :)
|
| Edit: Sorry for being sarcastic and flexing here. I'm friends
| with many IMO and IOI medalists (per the paper) who are
| studying/working in the US and I think it's an amazing
| opportunity for them. Where I grew up in Singapore, tech
| salaries are way lower, and as a new grad I think I easily 3xed
| what I could've made back there. I'm not representative of all
| immigrants but I believe I can represent a class of highly
| skilled immigrants who appreciate the opportunity. It's
| extremely insulting to call people like me exploited, because
| the next line is - I'm bringing down your wages.
| arkitaip wrote:
| Imagine thinking you are representative of US immigrants.
| [deleted]
| TeeMassive wrote:
| Imagine thinking _you_ speaking as a representative
| yourself...
| nostrademons wrote:
| The paper is specifically talking about highly skilled
| immigrants in math & science, though. Their dataset was a
| few thousand IMO gold medalists. Grandparent poster's
| experience is a lot more representative of this sample than
| a random agricultural worker who crosses the Rio Grande.
| notsureaboutpg wrote:
| The title is misleading though.
|
| The vast vast vast majority of migrants to the US are
| random agricultural workers and the vast vast vast
| minority of them are IMO gold medalists from Singapore.
| cccc4all wrote:
| Could you make that or higher amount in your former country?
| If not, why not?
| jokethrowaway wrote:
| The US did good economically in the past couple of
| centuries.
|
| There's significantly more money in the USA than in a lot
| of other countries.
|
| Even accounting for the ridiculously high taxes and the
| work-80hrs culture, the high salaries can be worth it for
| some people.
| anxrn wrote:
| Irrespective of which of the myriad ways you use to
| compare tax raters, the assertion that the US has
| "ridiculously high taxes" does not hold up.
|
| https://www.crfb.org/blogs/us-highest-taxed-nation-world
| terse_malvolio wrote:
| Doing what?
| papandada wrote:
| Post history seems to say he won a trading competition. To
| whoever downvoted this did you think I needed to add "so
| presumably he works in something along those lines"?
| dkdbejwi383 wrote:
| How much of that do you spend on health insurance?
| cdash wrote:
| Probably almost nothing. People who make salaries like that
| also have incredibly good insurance that is also mostly
| paid by their company.
| esoterica wrote:
| Probably $0? People usually get health insurance on top of
| their reported compensation.
| bobthepanda wrote:
| The health insurance isn't usually free. And a lot of
| employer plans have either lots of restrictions or high
| deductible or some other gotchas.
| [deleted]
| danans wrote:
| When group health insurance is provided in the US,
| employers and employees usually split the cost of
| insurance premiums. Both employers and employees can
| treat their premium portion as a tax deductible expense.
|
| Additional copays and out of pocket expenses are
| completely on the employee.
| np- wrote:
| Even some of the worst possible HDHP plans that employees
| can get have a max out of pocket of $10k/yr (pre-tax)
| with HSA. So you can say in the worst case OP makes $400k
| and pays $10k in insurance if he has some major health
| issues to be addressed. Or maybe just say he makes $390k
| and has totally free insurance? Even if he's spending
| something ridiculous like $50k/yr on a family of eight's
| insurance he's still way better off.
| Tinyyy wrote:
| You're right, sucks that you're downvoted.
| goldforever wrote:
| Good for you!
| beyondcompute wrote:
| Immigrants everywhere are brought in to work for smaller wages
| than locals. What's so new or unusual about this? The situation
| is unfortunate, of course. But the U.S. is not much different
| here. However, doing the same thing as everyone with less
| damage to economy (and therefore local working people,
| taxpayers, etc.) because of productivity is not necessarily
| such a bad thing. IMO, it should be much easier for productive
| people to enter any country than it is now. And it should be
| harder for non-productive ones (it's too easy now in many
| places).
|
| Context: I am an expat myself.
| eeZah7Ux wrote:
| > But the U.S. is not much different here
|
| The US is profoundly different. Very few developed countries
| have at-will employment.
|
| It puts immigrants at risk of being fired and losing health
| insurance in any moment and with 0 warning.
|
| This creates a very exploitative environment.
|
| Not to mention how difficult it is to immigrate, or to get a
| green card or citizenship compared to many other countries.
| pelasaco wrote:
| > Not to mention how difficult it is to immigrate, or to
| get a green card or citizenship compared to many other
| countries
|
| Compared with which countries?
| f6v wrote:
| Germany. 21 months working on a Blue Card gets you the
| right to apply for an unlimited permanent residence. And
| the Blue Card is rather trivial to get. All you need is a
| degree and a contract with a company. No visa sponsorship
| required, i.e. it costs a German company 0 to hire
| someone outside the EU.
|
| I think Canada's express entry is a good example as well.
| pelasaco wrote:
| > All you need is a degree and a contract with a company.
|
| That's just possible for some markets. If you are talking
| about your own experience, that's because you are
| probably software developer.
|
| Canada and Australia are definitely not easier, but more
| transparent.
| f6v wrote:
| https://www.make-it-in-germany.com/en/visa/skilled-
| immigrati...
|
| It's still a good deal. Non-IT professionals can get a PR
| status in 4 years.
| baybal2 wrote:
| Big asterisk there.
|
| German education accreditation for Blue Card is rather
| fickle.
|
| Germany maintains a rather short list of universities
| per-country which it recognises as institutes of higher
| learning.
|
| You may have a rather ordinary uni degree in mainstream
| occupation, but if your uni is not on the list, you can't
| do anything.
|
| If you passed a university program in a recognised
| university, but your program is missing from a dropdown
| list on their website, again, you can't do anything.
|
| And if you have both, but your degree does not state in
| its title verbatim that it is a bachelor, or masters
| program regardless of years of study, again, you can't do
| anything about it.
| f6v wrote:
| > you can't do anything.
|
| You're right, that happened to me in 2014. My then-
| employer had to drive to some government office and ask
| them to give a go-ahead for my degree. But I've never
| heard anything like that since that time.
| beyondcompute wrote:
| Good point. But the healthcare situation is a different
| topic.
| sokoloff wrote:
| "Nobody goes there any more; it's too crowded."
|
| At-will employment has pros and cons. It's not like
| citizens have permanent employment contracts and immigrants
| have at-will arrangements. Employers are more willing to
| hire if firing someone who doesn't work out isn't ruinous
| for the employer. It's true that someone who emigrates from
| a country where they have a permanent employment
| arrangement is giving something up to come to the US.
| Presumably, they think it's worth it.
| dgellow wrote:
| > Very few developed countries have at-will employment.
|
| And no other country than the US has 0 paid vacation days
| and 0 paid public holydays!
|
| The other day I was checking number of paid vacations per
| country, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annu
| al_leave_b..., the US is the only country ns the world with
| 0 total paid leave.
| danans wrote:
| > And no other country than the US has 0 paid vacation
| days and 0 paid public holydays!
|
| The vast majority of US states do not even guarantee any
| paid sick leave.
|
| https://www.patriotsoftware.com/blog/payroll/state-
| mandated-...
|
| All together this has the effect of increasing employers'
| leverage over employees, especially in industries with
| limited jobs and lots of competition for them.
| matz1 wrote:
| Even at the 'slave' wage, they still get paid significantly
| higher compared to wage in their home country. A lot of them
| would happily be 'exploited' for the opportunity.
| bumby wrote:
| > _compared to wage in their home country_
|
| I believe part of the argument is that this is precisely why
| it's exploitative. Employers are taking advantage of
| something the employee has zero control over. I.e., they are
| essentially being punished for where they were born.
|
| I'm torn on this topic. On one hand, it does seem
| exploitative. On the other, I don't know that stopping the
| exploitation makes the employee better off to if it
| essentially limits their job prospects. I assume there's
| middle ground but I don't know what it is
| rubyist5eva wrote:
| I'd love to move to the US from Canada in order to "exploit"
| the fact that my salary could almost double overnight simply by
| changing currency - and the less expensive real estate in
| pretty much everywhere that isn't in California, New York or
| some other giant city.
|
| Exploit me harder daddy.
| jokethrowaway wrote:
| Be careful to factor in property taxes you have to pay every
| year.
| eznzt wrote:
| If I have to choose between that or the immigrants exploiting
| the welfare state like it happens in most of the EU, imagine
| what I choose.
| orange_tee wrote:
| As always people on here bitching about the US. As an outsider
| one thing I find to be really good in the US is inclusion.
| Americans really don't know how backwards the rest of the world
| is.
|
| For example, I currently live in Germany. Germany is currently
| importing boatloads of Latino and South East Asian STEM workers.
| Now if you look at the structure of German companies two things
| stand out:
|
| 1. there is a huge disparity between management and workers and
| this is reflected also in the salaries 2. all management are
| German (99.9% ethnic with maybe one 3rd generation ethnic
| Slav/Turk)
|
| This situation is very likely true for most of Europe, except for
| maybe the UK.
|
| So of course migrants in the US are more productive. In most
| countries immigrants are imported to fill a niche and the glass
| ceiling is held firmly just above that niche. And let's not even
| talk about entrepreneurial opportunities for immigrants.
| DetroitThrow wrote:
| Yes, I am always shocked to hear how "non-racist" Germany is
| when I have friends who failed to climb the corporate ladder
| their because of their Greek last name, as they were explicitly
| told by their coworkers. In America, they are doing well now as
| an executive at a F500.
| unanswered wrote:
| > In America, they are doing well
|
| This is taken as further evidence of American racism!
| cameldrv wrote:
| Having lived in Germany for a few years, I was pretty
| surprised by the level of casual racism. The level of casual
| anti-semitism in Poland was even more surprising.
| piokoch wrote:
| Interesting. I've checked [1] and it seems that number of
| antisemitic incidents in Poland is rather low (for instance
| is smaller than in Sweden, which has much smaller
| population), not to mention France, where number of
| incidents was 5 times bigger than in Poland.
|
| I am curious what is source of you information about Polish
| antisemitism.
|
| [1] https://fra.europa.eu/en/publication/2020/antisemitism-
| overv...
| vaidhy wrote:
| I am really curious how a report like this can capture
| casual racism or antisemitism. When I was working in
| Switzerland a long time ago, one of the comments I heard
| frequently is that I am not like other Indians - I dress
| well, speak well and I am tall. I would consider it as a
| "racist" comment, but not something that would get
| reported. One of my other friends from India felt
| similar, if he is not dressed in a suit, he would be
| treated differently. I doubt he would report it either.
| You are different and will be treated differently. Jariel
| made a similar point above - you are constantly aware
| that it is not your country. I do not feel the same in
| US.
| AmericanChopper wrote:
| That's because the US is one of the most harmonious
| multicultural societies in the world. It just doesn't
| seem that way if you read the news because it's the rest
| of the worlds political punching bag.
|
| I've lived and worked all over Southeast Asia, and just
| openly being racist is perfectly normal there. Employers
| will openly tell you that they don't want to hire
| foreigners, because they don't trust them. Local ethnic
| minorities are consistently discriminated against,
| especially if there's a local ethnic Chinese population
| (who in Indonesia for instance are often referred to as
| babi which means pig, or mata sipit which means slanted
| eyes). Contempt for people from neighbouring countries is
| very common. Working in KL it was very common to hear my
| colleagues talking about how much they don't like Thai
| people. India takes things to a whole different level
| with their caste system and extreme distaste for dark
| skin.
|
| Ive never got particularly wound up about it, because I
| see myself as a guest whenever I go and work in a foreign
| country, so I've just got to play by their rules. But try
| applying that logic the US and see how long it takes for
| an outrage mob to come after you.
| rayiner wrote:
| > When I was working in Switzerland a long time ago, one
| of the comments I heard frequently is that I am not like
| other Indians - I dress well, speak well and I am tall. I
| would consider it as a "racist" comment, but not
| something that would get reported.
|
| Yikes. Very Joe Biden:
| https://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/31/biden.obama/
|
| > "I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American
| who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking
| guy," Biden said. "I mean, that's a storybook, man."
|
| I've never gotten a comment like that as a South Asian
| (Bangladesh) in the United States.
| id wrote:
| It is because Germany also takes in a lot of lower
| class/uneducated migrants in who have almost no prospects of
| getting a good job. Whereas America doesn't really do that as
| much (at least right now, I'm not talking about the past).
| Germany also doesn't have a lot of black people, which in my
| opinion if they had would make the racism more visible.
| jariel wrote:
| So this is an important point.
|
| An American in Germany would probably knee-jerk to 'racism'
| for a few reasons, and although there are different kinds
| of unfairness, I'm not sure if that's quite the right word.
|
| America is an open place, Germany, not so much. America has
| tons of really high-level aptitude migrants, Germany
| doesn't quite have that.
|
| With respect to 'glass ceilings' - it's more complicated.
|
| As a resident of Germany for some time, as an outsider ...
| I would have expected to be promoted well enough if I was
| materially 'that much better', but frankly, not otherwise.
|
| I actually accepted the fact that 'this is a German
| company, it's going to be run by Germans'.
|
| I was in France I felt the same way.
|
| I don't believe in the notion that a random person from
| country XYZ has the 'right' to be an executive for example
| at a local company.
|
| Definitely treated with respect and not face racism,
| definitely promoted rank and file based mostly on
| performance, definitely the same material, legal rights -
| but beyond that ... I always felt 'it was their country,
| not really mine'.
|
| Also, there are quite a number of these countries run by
| foreign nationals anyhow, it's just not quite as common as
| in the US.
| Balero wrote:
| You also lose a lot of the cultural baggage when you go
| somewhere new, which when it's holding you back is a great
| thing to be rid of.
|
| As a guy from northern England I have been held back in my
| career when working in the south because of my accent, which is
| not very strong anyway. For example not being allowed to give
| presentations, or meet clients, as there was someone who "Would
| give the right impression".
|
| In the US I just have a weird accent. No cultural baggage, no
| jokes about being thick etc. If you can get past people trying
| to get you to say lines from Game of Thrones, you're accent
| doesn't mean anything.
| hntrader wrote:
| > 2. all management are German
|
| Questions from someone that knows very little about Germany:
|
| How much of this is the German culture to be educated to a
| master/PhD level in order to get into management roles? Perhaps
| that increases the barriers to entry into these levels for
| immigrants.
|
| How much of this is a language barrier? Immigrants to English-
| speaking countries have often learned some English before they
| arrive (often from their schooling) which might put them in a
| more advantageous position relatively speaking.
| orange_tee wrote:
| To be honest, I do not want to speculate about the why and
| philosophize about the justifications, as the issue is very
| complicated and would needlessly deviate the discussion.
|
| My comment was very matter of fact: because of the current
| lack of diversity in management, immigrants have virtually no
| opportunities to break into management, and because high
| compensation is almost entirely reserved for management, this
| means that immigrants cannot be deemed high-achievers in this
| business environment.
| hntrader wrote:
| Does this also apply to 2nd generation immigrants?
| throw2838 wrote:
| Please! All european countries have equal opportunity laws. If
| you are less qualified and do not speak local language, you
| will have a hard time!
|
| Compared to most european countries, US is very xenophobic. We
| offer clear path to citizenships, after 5 years you get
| passport. Not this dreamer BS.
| xxpor wrote:
| The "dreamer BS" isn't in any way comparable. I seriously
| doubt you're offering citizenship in 5 years to anyone who
| shows up and sneaks across the border. I do think we should
| offer citizenship to the dreamers but it'd involve passing
| actual laws so...
| throw2838 wrote:
| Well, if they work, pay taxes, can have a driver licence...
| Yes they will get citizenship after 5 years of residency.
|
| I just hate this smug american BS. "We love XYZ", but will
| exploit it, and change rules every 4 years.
| vinay427 wrote:
| > citizenship after 5 years of residency.
|
| This is literally false in many European countries. I
| live in one where it is false. Please verify details
| before posting with specific numbers.
|
| https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/becoming-a-citizen/29288376
| plandis wrote:
| Which European countries provide a path to citizenship
| for illegal immigrants who have lived in that given
| country for 5 years?
| incrudible wrote:
| > Well, if they work, pay taxes, can have a driver
| licence... Yes they will get citizenship after 5 years of
| residency.
|
| As far as I can tell, it is eight years of _legal_
| residency. You also must not be dependent on welfare,
| which implies that you 're either already wealthy,
| dependent on someone, or you have permission to work.
| Very similar to the US.
|
| So effectively you have to apply for a work visa just
| like in the US, you can't just walk in and expect to be
| tolerated - unless you're a refugee.
| tomschlick wrote:
| > Not this dreamer BS.
|
| To be fair, the dreamers stuff is about people who came here
| / were brought here illegally by their parents.
|
| We definitely have work to do on our immigration system but I
| would imagine if I immigrated to Germany illegally they
| wouldn't make the process very easy on me either.
| dexen wrote:
| _> Compared to most european countries, US is very
| xenophobic._
|
| As an european who have worked for european and for american
| companies[1]... no, very much it's the reverse: european
| companies pay a lot of attention to university, nationality
| (home culture, really), and social class for matters of
| promotion; american companies are more results-oriented and
| much more cosmopolitan.
|
| You might be judging it by what's being broadcasted in
| popular media - the european "we're enlightened all the way
| through" versus the american "we still have ways to go".
|
| _> All european countries have equal opportunity laws._
|
| Only really useful for bilking the big multinational
| companies for moderately stingy fines. Nobody gets ahead
| because of a _lawsuit_.
|
| --
|
| [1] selection bias caveat applies, obviously
| randompwd wrote:
| There is no "European" in the same way there is "American".
|
| Europe country cultures are massively more different and
| diverse than US states.
|
| There's only been free pan-EU movement since the Lisbon
| Treaty in December 2009. 11 years is not enough time to
| achieve the homogeneity that US citizens have from being
| single(dual at most) language, single currency & no borders
| for hundreds of years. Not to mention the similar pan US TV
| they all shared for decades.
| vinay427 wrote:
| To be fair, this applies even more directly to the parent
| of the comment you replied to (GP), which asserted that
| you get a passport after 5 years. That's true in a few
| European countries but explicitly false in many others.
| orange_tee wrote:
| Of course, but the law is a joke in practice (which btw is
| something I found typical of German law). It is very hard to
| prove discrimination and no immigrant would have the money,
| time and energy to pick such a battle.
|
| What most of them do instead, (which is smarter than trying
| to fight a German employer in a German court) is they use
| Germany as a stepping stone. They come here, get a couple
| years of experience and move to a more welcoming country
| afterwards. And German bureaucrats and employers wonder why
| retention is so low.
| semanticsbitch wrote:
| In America, the lack of a middle class creates racism and
| classism.
|
| I struggled my entire life to get an education that ultimately
| was just indentured servitude and barely now can survive.
| People who didn't go to college seem to be the ones who are not
| struggling and can afford to buy a home.
|
| I went on EBT during the pandemic and received quadruple the
| money I have ever had for food. When a country cares more about
| failures over people who try hard, you should expect pain,
| racism, classism, and just general hate. This is not a
| meritocracy and never has been
| rayiner wrote:
| Some data to support this:
| https://fortune.com/2020/06/19/corporate-germany-race-divers...
|
| > There are 179 people on the management or executive boards of
| Germany's 29 Fortune Global 500 companies. Just two of them are
| not white--both hailing from South Asia--and none is black.
|
| Contrast the US:
| https://deloitte.wsj.com/riskandcompliance/2019/03/12/women-...
|
| > Total minority representation increased to 16.1 percent (912
| board seats) from 12.8 percent in 2010, the first year Fortune
| 500 data were captured.
| jwond wrote:
| I don't understand, am I supposed to think it's a problem
| that German companies are being managed by native Germans?
| tpush wrote:
| If the makeup of management doesn't reflect the underlying
| population, especially if non-management does, then yes of
| course that's a problem.
|
| I as an ethnic German can echo the GP's point. Non-
| management can be quite diverse, but management is very
| much old, white, ethnic Germans as far as the eye can see.
|
| There are still a lot of conscious/unconscious ethnic
| biases in Germany, especially among the older population.
| frongpik wrote:
| Management is usually made of middle aged experienced
| people with really good speaking skills who have lived in
| the country for a decade or two at least. I suppose that
| the migrants in germany meet none of these criteria.
| Swenrekcah wrote:
| Management is actually usually made up of previous
| management's social circles.
|
| I suspect that is the only criteria migrants don't really
| check, and that is the point.
| nickkell wrote:
| If by native you mean citizen, then there are also non-
| white natives of Germany. Without data on the ethnic makeup
| of the population it's difficult to say how poorly they're
| represented
| throwawaygulf wrote:
| Yes. Just wait till SJW "woke" intersectionality cancer
| fully metastasizes in Germany/Europe.
|
| Native Germans managing German companies will be "toxic
| whiteness", and you not understanding/believing in the
| problem is just white fragility.
| quenix wrote:
| Discourse like this belongs more on Reddit. I feel like
| I'm listening to a Ben Shapiro destroys liberals
| compilation.
| IdiocyInAction wrote:
| So, first of all, "white" and "black" are not good terms to
| use in Germany. Most of Germany's migrants are not from
| Africa and most are from the EU. Germany has a "black"
| population of about 2%, compared to the 10+% in the US.
|
| Then, you get the fact that the minorities in the US are more
| qualified than the ones in Germany. Germany doesn't attract
| the most talented in the world, like the US and due to the
| lack of two oceans protecting it from the rest of the world,
| Germany doesn't get to be too picky about its migrants. The
| biggest attraction to foreigners is its welfare state. So I
| would hesitate to conclude to much from such a simple
| comparison.
| foepys wrote:
| Germany doesn't have many black people because Germany didn't
| import them as slaves and never really colonized Africa.
|
| This whole statistic is worthless without context. Like how
| Germany's first immigrants after WW2 were low skilled Turkish
| workers and only recently Germany became more attractive for
| high-skilled immigrants because the US effectively shut down
| its visa program for the majority of people.
|
| I'm not saying Germany is perfect but just whipping out some
| numbers without context doesn't cut it.
|
| Also, it's pretty bold for Americans to lecture other
| countries on racism while their police is gunning down people
| simply for the color of their skin and is separating children
| of refugees from their parents to put them in cages.
| Meanwhile Germany is providing healthcare and shelter for all
| refugees but apparently doesn't currently promote a few dozen
| high-skilled workers that very likely could've made it
| anywhere to be CEO.
| nicodjimenez wrote:
| Germany is no stranger to slave labor and didn't abolish it
| until much later than the US did (1945). And not by choice
| either. The US has never had genocide on the industrial
| scale of what Germany has done in the 20th century. Slave
| labor today doesn't seem to be an issue for Merkel either,
| as evidenced by recent trade deals.
|
| Germans playing the moral superiority card is humorous to
| me.
| foepys wrote:
| You missed my point entirely. I never compared past
| atrocities as it is unfair to the current generation.
| What I compare is the current state of affairs.
|
| Germany today is giving shelter and free healthcare to
| refugees but apparently not CEO positions.
|
| The US is gunning down blacks and forcefully taking
| children of refugees away from their parents but some
| immigrants became CEO of large companies which apparently
| makes the US more immigration-friendly and less racist
| than Germany.
| [deleted]
| rayiner wrote:
| > Germany doesn't have many black people because Germany
| didn't import them as slaves and never really colonized
| Africa.
|
| Yes, that was a weird point to make in the article because
| it's not as if there are many Black people in Germany. But
| you have to admit that having just two non-white people out
| of 179 (1.1%) on corporate boards is pretty odd. Germany is
| white, but not 98.9% white. Turks make up over 5% of the
| population.
| varajelle wrote:
| Aren't Turks white?
| foepys wrote:
| Definitely true. Germany made a huge mistake not
| integrating 1st and 2nd generation Turks better and the
| 3rd generation is now feeling especially lost as Turkey
| isn't home and Germany doesn't feel like home either.
| sangnoir wrote:
| > Germany doesn't have many black people because Germany
| didn't import them as slaves and never really colonized
| Africa.
|
| Germany _did_ colonize Africa and committed its fair share
| of attrocities in Namibia, but the colonies were taken away
| after WWII - way before the African independence movement
| took hold (which was immediately followed by an uptick of
| citizens in those former colonies migrating to colonial
| powers)
| iguy wrote:
| You mean after WWI. But yes, both to having colonies, but
| being a smaller player than others.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_colonization_of_Afri
| ca
| yorwba wrote:
| > Just two of them are not white--both hailing from South
| Asia--and none is black.
|
| "Whiteness" is a US concept, which doesn't make much sense in
| a German context. That sentence only tells me that some South
| Asians are neither white nor black.
|
| I have no idea how they'd classify e.g. Turks. I think Greeks
| are considered white in the US, so maybe Turks too.
|
| The other big immigrant group in Germany are Vietnamese, but
| they're kind of hamstrung by mostly having moved to East
| Germany. (East Germans in general are economically
| disadvantaged.)
|
| I think statistics about ethnicity would be more useful if
| they were based on easily interpretable categories like own
| country of birth, country of birth of parents, grandparents,
| etc.
| harikb wrote:
| The main take away is that there is advancement for global
| scientific community by having a significant portion of the smart
| people migrate to one part of the world and collaborate.
|
| What is not discussed
|
| 1. The fact that it happens a to be USA is a minor turn in the
| history in favor of this particular country
|
| 2. Post COVID world could be significantly different
| dan-robertson wrote:
| I can't easily download this paper but it is measuring specific
| things in research scientists and mathematicians and doesn't
| really say much about us migrants in general or what you may
| think of as productivity. The title feels like a bit of an
| overstatement of the results.
| nottorp wrote:
| H1-B serfdom?
|
| Or just the fact that everything in the US is overpriced?
|
| Or, related to H1-B, their managers feel the need to overstate
| their contribution so they'll be allowed to import more serfs in
| the future?
| golemiprague wrote:
| The only thing that is overpriced in the US is Education and
| Health, anything else is cheaper than any other developed
| country and no other country has so much variety it terms of
| cost of living like the US.
| baybal2 wrote:
| > Or just the fact that everything in the US is overpriced?
|
| Will disagree, US is all over the place, but it is faaaar from
| the most expensive countries around.
| kumarski wrote:
| On average, they have 2x to 6x the amount of electricity access
| in the USA to the countries they come from. Makes sense.
| oji0hub wrote:
| Well they get kicked out of the country if they get fired.
| finolex1 wrote:
| The paper is about IMO medalists and the like. Getting fired is
| not among their primary concerns.
| briandear wrote:
| Is that different than Europe for those on a work visa?
| [deleted]
| jokethrowaway wrote:
| No, if you're ex-EU with a working visa and you lose your
| job, you can lose legal status in the country (unless you get
| another visa, whether that's another employer or something
| else)
| jounker wrote:
| It's actually really different in treatment, at least in
| Germany. Yes, you can loose your job but you get to stick
| around until your visa expires, which in my experience is
| tied to the visa term rather than the employment.
|
| When you loose employment you're also allowed to collect
| unemployment.
|
| My visa class (basically the equivalent of an H1B) also
| allowed me to work as a contractor in my field.
|
| Finally, getting the visa transferred to another employer
| just requires you to show up at the immigration office with
| an employment contract. Your employer doesn't have to do
| anything.
|
| There is also an assumption here that you're a guest who is
| trying to do the right thing rather than someone who is
| trying to game the system or steal a job from Germans.
|
| So, the reality is that it's hugely different from the
| experience I've heard of people having with the American
| immigration system.
| jounker wrote:
| I can only speak for German and Swiss work visas, but my
| experience is that they are very different than US work
| visas.
|
| The systems feel very much like you are being treated as a
| guest. Yes, there are rules but the rules are fair.
|
| You lost your job? Well, you've been paying taxes, so you're
| entitled to all the benefits that any other tax payer gets.
|
| You lost your job? Well, you can take contract work in your
| field until you get a job? You want to change your visa type?
| You can do that without leaving the country?
|
| You want to visit you family back in the USA for three
| months? Sure, family is important. So are vacations.
|
| So yeah, it's really different.
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