[HN Gopher] India protests: Internet cut to hunger-striking farm...
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India protests: Internet cut to hunger-striking farmers in Delhi
Author : jfk13
Score : 69 points
Date : 2021-01-30 20:23 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bbc.co.uk)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bbc.co.uk)
| asfasfaasfas wrote:
| People don't like to say it, but it's just India's Hinduism
| versus the minorities (Sikhs and Muslims), a bunch of Indians
| here throwing excuses know what's up.
|
| Also for the West, it's hard not to roll them all up in one
| category because inherently westerns do this with africans,
| asians, middle easterners
| iamsb wrote:
| For context - Just last year a different protest resulted in a
| massive riot in the same city, around similar time.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Delhi_riots . This resulted in
| murders of at least 53 people, including a highly gruesome
| lynching of a police officer.
|
| Also again for context, as Kashmir internet ban keeps coming up
| in discussion, ni the 90s 500K minority (Hindu+Sikh) people were
| forced out of their houses in Kashmir, many of them still living
| in refugee camps. Thousands were murdered, thousands raped. This
| was coordinated using loudspeakers. I personally shudder to think
| what kind of genocide can be coordinated using Internet
| technologies. Especially when there are motivated, well funded
| enemies like Pakistan involved in both regions.
| pantalaimon wrote:
| Well that sure is a case for Starlink.
| ajsnigrutin wrote:
| As with every war, you have "freedom fighters" fighting the
| "bad dictator" and you have "terrorists" fighting the
| "democratically elected leader", depending on who the media
| like that day - https://imgur.com/gallery/NQ67u .
|
| Same here.. if elon/us government/whoever sides with the
| protesters, then starlink is the solution. If they decide that
| the farmers are "oposition funded extremists" (or whatever) it
| isn't.
|
| Basically the only solution is the one that is independent on
| the government and international corporations... be it ham
| radio, wifi mesh networks, or some other kind of technology.
| Obviously all of that is easier in developed nations, where
| everyone can buy an extra router and a handheld radio for a
| price of a dinner at a shitty restaurant.
| Brozilean wrote:
| You think Elon Musk wouldn't cut starlink for folks if they
| were striking? Really?
| postmeta wrote:
| Are you perhaps referring to the emerald-inheritance-richy-
| rich child-slave-loving-cobalt-mining 3rd-world-tweet-coup-
| leading union-busting-racist-workplace-of-terror-managing
| thai-pedo-twitter-bully covid-denier Elon that weird homeless
| hippy writers, wallstreetbros and proud-moms who didn't buy
| any $TSLA like to get their outrage chubs for?
| sandeeps_ wrote:
| Wow! You sure are salty about $TSLA!
| spoonjim wrote:
| Not for the Indian government, at his level they are just for
| the lulz. For the US government, very likely.
| fakedang wrote:
| You think Elon wouldn't cut Starlink so that he can cozy up
| with a dictatorial regime?
|
| Edit:- keep 'em downvotes coming Muskie fanbois!
| codesternews wrote:
| Sadly the Indian govt passed the laws without taking opposition
| and farmers in confidence. They passed the law very bluntly.
| Thats from where all this started.
|
| It's very simple thing to solve but current govt want to make it
| political. They are basically saying MSP(Minimum selling price)
| is not affected. But farmers protesting why you include this in
| bill.
|
| But because of govt ego millions of farmers are protesting for
| their own livelihood.
| quantgenius wrote:
| The bill was public. It was debated for a while, and anyone
| could have read it during that period if they chose to. There
| was none of the here is a 5000 page bill and you must pass it
| in 2 hours or the economy goes under like happens in the US
| Congress. They not only took the farmers into confidence, they
| took the opinions of the farmers into consideration and amended
| the bill. Each individual substantive line item being demanded
| by the protesters is already included in the bill. The bill
| literally cannot harm any actual farmer. It will prevent
| certain bureaucrats and politicians from receiving bribes from
| the buyers of produce and as a result will likely increase what
| the farmers receive by the amount of the bribe paid. They can
| quite literally only get MORE for produce than they get now,
| the bill obligates the government to guarantee this.
| systemvoltage wrote:
| Is it fair to say that the pandemic has brewed more protests than
| ever, not just in India but worldwide? It's not to diminish the
| issues, but the pandemic is adding fuel? Most countries around
| the world are facing protests all simultaneously after the
| pandemic (except China)?
| bsan3 wrote:
| The pandemic seems to be exposing the wealth inequality, which
| I think is the root issue here. The haves have even more and
| the nots bore the brunt. Judging by protests, approaching
| breaking point
| systemvoltage wrote:
| Pandemic also _brought_ more wealth inequality. Tourism,
| restaurants, brick and mortar shops, malls, theaters,
| airlines, etc. are affected by no malicious cause but because
| of the virus. The wealthy class did not cause this.
|
| While, I think the wealthy should be heavily taxed and
| poverty must be abolished, I don't want to live in a world
| where there is _zero_ wealth inequality. Also, wealth is not
| a zero sum game.
| throwawaysea wrote:
| Definitely. If people were employed and busy with either work
| or leisure activities, they would be less likely to choose to
| invest time into protests, particularly violent ones. The same
| is true for the George Floyd protests and all the numerous
| other protests we have seen - even if they did take place
| outside of a pandemic, the participation would be much smaller.
| throwawaysea wrote:
| To the people recoiling at this but in support of recent
| deplatforming/censorship against conservatives in America - what
| makes you think one is acceptable and the other isn't? There are
| tons of videos online showing mass vandalism, property
| destruction, and violence promulgated by those participating in
| the farmer protests. These include violent disruptions of
| political events, breaking police barriers to occupy and
| vandalize historical monuments, setting vehicles on fire,
| injuring hundreds, and more. Surely the participants and those
| inciting violence need to be brought under control to restore
| order. There are peaceful ways to assemble and effect political
| change. Isn't this just like American tech companies
| deplatforming people to curb mass criminality?
| actuator wrote:
| Sadly as much as I hate seeing essential communication links cut,
| though I don't have any data I am assuming a lot of people are
| going to buy in the public safety angle. It is not like the
| Indian state hasn't used that line of reasoning before for even
| bans lasting more than a year.
|
| Reading through the linked article on the violence related to the
| same protests that happened few days back reminded me of some
| tweets I had seen. People running around brandishing swords(and
| other melee weapons) attacking cops, which felt way worse than
| what we saw in US Capitol insurrection.
| https://twitter.com/ANI/status/1354088807424028673
| intended wrote:
| It's sad since the majority of the protest was peaceful.
| There's even the usual sorry state where reporters actively
| told camera men to stop rolling when they accidentally captured
| police caning protestors.
|
| The capitol insurrection angle is also a new line being tested
| in the media for consumption.
| bsan3 wrote:
| Nope, complete propaganda by the Indian govt. I have family
| there so I can confirm. The Indian media is completely sold out
| to the govt and will only present highly selected and curated
| pictures. Social media is where they can't control the
| narrative. The Indian govt unleash sate sanctioned mobs on
| these protestors, desperate resort to break up the protest. Now
| they had to ensure that the truth stays under wraps. Hence, cut
| off internet.
| asfasfaasfas wrote:
| Complete propaganda here. The oligarchs and nationalists are
| pushing down the minorities (Sikhs, and Muslims and poor). A
| t the end of the day those funding Jio and other Oligarchs
| (Hi Mark, Hi Bond), will end up catching blame with a black
| swan event goes down. Follow the money, VCs and Facebook fund
| up these same oligarchs that press and kill hundreds of
| millions.
| quantgenius wrote:
| I grew up in India, lived there as an adult and while I live
| in the US, I visit frequently and read Indian newspapers and
| watch Indian news channels regularly.
|
| I couldn't disagree with this more. There are lots of things
| wrong with Indian democracy but the absence of media freedom
| or widely publicised robust debate is not one of them. If
| anything the Indian media absolutely loves to troll and
| embarass the government, particularly the Central (federal in
| the US) government, even if they have to do this by allowing
| opposition or fringe figures to spread very easily debunked
| misinformation in the interest of creating controversy and
| hence ratings.
|
| I would suggest the media in India is far freer of government
| influence than the mainstream media in the United States.
| Something like the NY Times parroting the Pentagon's line
| regarding the justification for the Iraq war simply would not
| happen in India.
|
| Two recent cases in point:
|
| 1) In the current farmer protests, they are demanding that
| minimum price supports not be removed. The bill does not
| remove them. The status quo is that only certain government
| entities can buy directly from the farmers. They always pay
| the government set fixed price. The bill simply allows other
| entities to bid more and buy directly from farmers so long as
| they pay more than the price the government entities would
| pay.
|
| The bill doesn't harm the farmers. It harms corrupt elements
| in the current Punjab State government. These elements would
| demand bribes from companies purchasing from the government
| entities that were the only entities allowed to buy from the
| farmers. Essentially they would receive the difference
| between fair market value for the produce and the government
| minimum as a bribe. Now the buyers can simply buy directly
| from the farmers and the farmers get full market value unless
| market value drops below the minimum. The bill explicitly
| stipulates that the farmers have the absolute right to sell
| to the government at the government set price if they choose
| to.
|
| Half my family is Punjabi, many live in Punjab. The vast
| majority, including the vast majority of farmers, strongly
| support the bill.
|
| 2) Recent protests around the Citizenship Amendment Act. The
| Act only codifies into law commitments the Indian Government
| made when India split into India and Pakistan. The Supreme
| Court has ruled that those commitments are binding. However,
| before the act actually getting the paperwork through the
| bureaucracy meant lots of bribes, for bureaucrats, for
| politicians and whoever could get on the gravy train.
|
| Just like in the case of these protests, the protests against
| that Act were against things the Act actually did not do.
|
| I was born in Kashmir. Half my family is Kashmiri. I lived
| there until I was 7 when our family moved due to increasing
| terrorism. I have friends and family there. Cutting off the
| Internet in Kashmir has nothing to do with keeping the truth
| out. Mobile communications can be used to get the truth. They
| can also be used to coordinate terrorism. If Russia decided
| to send Eskimo infiltrators into Alaska routinely with the
| goal of creating an insurrection, b) these infiltrators and
| certain brainwashed local individuals had killed 50,000
| people over 20 years, c) Russia was determined to recover
| Alaska at virtually any cost, d) there was clear information
| that a few thousand infiltrators had already entered and were
| using VPNs running over mobile phones to coordinate, and e)
| if the US government had been unable to crack the encryption
| in real-time, I suspect mobile internet would be cut off in
| Alaska. Only 3000 people died in 9-11 and the US government
| did far more to restrict freedom that the Indian government
| has ever done.
|
| As far as the current protests are concerned, it wasn't that
| long ago some of the same groups who are currently involved
| in the "farmer" protests were coordinating with Pakistan to
| try to create an independent Punjab. This eventually led to
| the Indian government having to execute Operation Blue Star,
| after it became clear that Pakistan intended to start a war
| within 24 hours in hopes of a local insurrection helping
| them. I was in Amritsar during Operation Blue Star. We found
| spent bullets (likely fired into the air miles away) in our
| back yard after it was all over. According to army officers
| who were involved in the operation, who our family has known
| for years, and who came over to our house for a meal after it
| was all over, there was enough ammunition stored at the
| Golden Temple to supply an infantry battalion for a month.
|
| The same elements in the Punjab government who receive bribes
| due to price controls on agriculture have also been turning a
| blind eye to the massive drug influx into Punjab, drugs which
| originate in Taliban controlled Afghanistan and fund the ISI.
| The reality is that in India these groups were allowed to
| rehabilitate themselves, and these individuals actually hold
| positions in state government. If the same had happened in
| the US, they would have been locked up in Supermax prisons
| and the keys thrown away. Don't read this as whataboutism. I
| frankly think the Indian government has been far too soft in
| handling this sort of thing. Democracy and the fundamental
| rights embedded in a free country's constitution are not a
| suicide pact.
| selimthegrim wrote:
| So do you expect to send the army in in Punjab like 1990s
| Kashmir? Why was Modi's handpicked LTG Murmu suddenly
| transferred when he came out in favor of restoring 4G? You
| have to have a plan to restore it, even your SC says so,
| you can't just gazette new ordinance every day and do "the
| beatings will continue until morale improves"
| actuator wrote:
| I don't think we are talking about the same thing. I was
| talking about the protestors attacking cops of which there
| are a lot of videos on social media. The video I linked above
| shows them jumping from a fort to save themselves.
| alex_smart wrote:
| There is plenty of propaganda floating around from both
| sides. If you dislike muddy waters, I would recommend
| staying out of Indian politics. It is a clusterfuck.
|
| To add to your top comment, these events - protestors
| attacking police personnel and protestors raiding Red Fort
| and raising their own flags - happened on _republic day_ ,
| which is like a mini 4th of July for India (we have two:
| 15th August, which is when India became independent and
| 26th January, which is when India adopted its
| constitution). On Republic Day, India observes the
| president furl India's national flag from the Red Fort, so
| seeing these events unfold, especially seeing a flag other
| than the Indian flag at Red Fort on Republic Day, were of
| very big symbolic value.
| 0xFFFE wrote:
| There is always two sides to the story, here is a "protester"
| attacking a cop with a sword. They are coordinating attacks using
| whatsapp and other means.
|
| https://www.republicworld.com/india-news/law-and-order/singh...
| keskadale wrote:
| Republic World. haha
| 0xFFFE wrote:
| I can understand your cynicism, but a simple Google search
| will show plenty of news portals reporting the same news.
| middleclick wrote:
| Pasting a Republic link is incredibly disingenuous because they
| frequently peddle fake news, not to mention, are extremely
| biased towards the current government, so much that their main
| person had access to sensitive intelligence information.
|
| Search: "arnab leaked chats"
| 0xFFFE wrote:
| >Search: "arnab leaked chats"
|
| Similarly, searching for "Singhu border SHO attack" will give
| you many sources for the same incident.
| midasuni wrote:
| Choosing such a bad source by default pretty much wipes
| your credibility out.
|
| It like saying domestic drinking is up and posting
|
| https://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2021/01/29/local-man-to-
| sp...
|
| As proof. You may have had a point, but it's lost from your
| source.
| 0xFFFE wrote:
| > Choosing such a bad source by default pretty much wipes
| your credibility out.
|
| I would buy your argument if the Republic was the only
| news channel reporting it. I am not here to prove my
| credibility, I am stating a fact that the incident
| happened. I have no affiliation to any of the news
| channels, all I am arguing is violence was uncalled for.
| If you want to ignore that incident just because I cited
| a source that you don't like, you are welcome to ignore
| my comments and move on.
| naebother wrote:
| There's also more to a story than a single picture. What
| happened before? If cops are going to attack protesters or
| stand by while gangs are allowed to attack protesters, don't be
| surprised if they get their shit pushed in.
| didibus wrote:
| I'm honestly not seeing two sides sorry. So a few people are
| breaking laws, you disconnect the internet? That's not two
| sides, that's only one side. If someone in my neighborhood is a
| criminal, they don't cut the power to my neighborhood and throw
| flair bombs at it. How is that the "other side"? Instead they
| just go after that criminal. To me it looks like a massive
| imbalance in power from one side over the other.
| 0xFFFE wrote:
| I am all for peaceful protests, the constitution has given
| every citizen the right to protest. But not at the cost of
| damage to the public property, rioting and violence. Jfyi,
| there is already case in supreme court of India to hear the
| grievances that they may have. But some political leaders are
| taking advantage of the situation to incite violence. Please
| note, cops are human beings too, they have been asked not to
| use lethal force against the protestors.
| middleclick wrote:
| > I am all for peaceful protests, the constitution has
| given every citizen the right to protest
|
| They have been peaceful protesting for literally months
| now. One bad incident does not mean anything and there is a
| lot of information about how the government goons
| infiltrated the protests.
|
| If you are all for peaceful protests, you wouldn't single
| out one single incident but that's exactly what you are
| doing and I think it's malicious. Which you are free to do,
| but please don't pretend otherwise.
| 0xFFFE wrote:
| > One bad incident does not mean anything Is it really?
| There are literally 100s of youtube videos of protesters
| damaging public property and attacking Police.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqiwIbUzPyo
|
| Here is a the Guardian link.
| https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/26/violent-
| clashe...
|
| Times now
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1kC7RPEniM
|
| > there is a lot of information about how the government
| goons infiltrated the protests.
|
| Can you cite a source?
|
| EDIT: Formatting
| middleclick wrote:
| Did you read your own links?
|
| > Samyukta Kisan Morcha, an umbrella organisation
| representing more than 40 farmers' unions, condemned
| those who had taken part in the clashes and said that
| "anti-social elements had infiltrated the otherwise
| peaceful movement".
|
| The organizers clearly condemned the violence. What else
| should they do?
|
| Repeating what you conveniently ignored: one bad incident
| does not override months of completely peaceful protests,
| acknowledged by residents of the areas where they were
| protesting. And yet, you bring up just that one thing,
| which is very much in line with the government
| propaganda. The Republic link was the icing on the cake.
| Like I said, you are free to believe what you want but
| painting yourself as pro freedom of protests while
| ignoring the fact that they have been peaceful for months
| and singling out this one thing says a lot about your
| bias.
|
| Source: https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/farmers-storm-india-
| s-red-fort-...
|
| > The farmers have been staging largely peaceful protests
| for nearly two months
| 0xFFFE wrote:
| > Repeating what you conveniently ignored: one bad
| incident does not override months of completely peaceful
| protests
|
| I am not the one conveniently forgetting violence at the
| Red fort. Let me ask you, why even protest when the
| Supreme court is hearing the case and Govt has agreed to
| put the law on hold for 1.5 years. Why violence &
| blocking highways? Why not take it up with Supreme Court?
| middleclick wrote:
| The Supreme Court of India is going to listen to the
| farmers? The same Supreme Court that asked why and I
| quote, "why old people and women are kept in the
| protests" as if thousands of old farmers were paid money
| and brought in to the protests?
|
| I repeat: protesting is a fundamental right. Farmers have
| been protesting peacefully for months. One bad incident
| is not reflective of the otherwise largely peaceful
| protests. You are ignoring this line.
|
| https://www.newslaundry.com/2021/01/14/sorry-this-isnt-a-
| man...
|
| You can drop the facade at this stage and stop wasting
| everyone's time. At least have the audacity to be genuine
| of your beliefs. To not be so is cowardly.
| throwawaysea wrote:
| Do you have strong, proven evidence for infiltration?
| Otherwise this seems like the typical false flag
| conspiracy we always hear when protests turn violent. The
| reality is even those acting peacefully are providing
| cover for those acting violently among their ranks. They
| also often incite that violent fringe to action, and
| condone or overlook their actions. Silence is violence,
| right? And remaining silent on those using violence to
| achieve political goals - the very definition of
| terrorism - isn't acceptable.
| middleclick wrote:
| Such things are typically reported by the media. One of
| the problems in India though is that the media is
| completely biased towards the government. The prime
| minister of the world's largest democracy has held
| exactly zero press conferences in 6-7 years. When he
| does, they are incredibly scripted where they ask him if
| he likes to eat mangoes
| (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dUyQWcn1CA). He also
| does a poor job of answering tough questions
| (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAGAYL8dtic) so the
| media interviews he does give are more of a PR stunt for
| him where the "journalists" praise his qualities and ask
| him no hard questions.
|
| Coming back to your question: the farmers have clearly
| said they denounce the violence in more than one ways.
| The other thing that is leading more credence to this
| theory is how the police treated the people indulging in
| violence. Evidence from the ground shows that the police
| shook hands and were generally very respectful towards
| them. This suggests infiltration. More sources:
| https://thewire.in/agriculture/day-of-clashes-with-bjp-
| spons...
| didibus wrote:
| > I am all for peaceful protests [...] But not at the cost
| of damage to the public property, rioting and violence
|
| Which one is it? So I'm peacefully protesting... And then
| someone ELSE two street away from me breaks a window... Am
| I not allowed to peacefully protest anymore?
| 0xFFFE wrote:
| IF you were a cop, how would you differentiate between
| the two in that chaos? Your first objective would be to
| bring the situation under control before more people get
| hurt or more property gets damaged.
|
| Just take a look at this video and tell me you will be
| able to differentiate. There are no "two" different
| streets here, just one big chaos.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqiwIbUzPyo
| AmericanChopper wrote:
| How do you feel about the revolutionary war? Or the
| Jacobite uprisings? Or the troubles? Or the French
| Resistance? Or the Yugoslav Partisans?
|
| I'm all for peaceful solutions too, but if you look through
| history you'll find plenty of morally righteous violent
| resistance. In this case it seems inevitable to me. The
| aggrieved parties here mostly come from a place that was
| previously violently conquered by the Mughal Empire, then
| later violently won their independence to form the Sikh
| Empire, shortly after that they were violently conquered
| again by the British Raj. The British Raj was ousted by
| nonviolent resistance, but that's an incredible anomaly in
| history, and was only really possible because the British
| had largely lost interest in holding the colony.
|
| The result was the partitioning of India, which worked out
| terribly for a lot of people. Especially the Punjabis,
| who's state was cut in half and split between Islamic
| Pakistan, and Hindu India. Hindu Nationalism on the India
| side of the border has lead to decades of often violent
| oppression of minority group in India. Why would violent
| resistance not be a morally defensible response?
|
| I also find the international coverage of this issue quite
| funny. If you only read international sources you might
| come away with the impression that this conflict is just
| between "farmers" and the Indian government. If you read
| Indian sources you're more likely to get the impression
| this is a separatist conflict between "Khalistani
| terrorists" and the Indian government.
| 0xFFFE wrote:
| So if this not a protest against the farm bill, they
| should drop the facade then.
|
| > you'll find plenty of morally righteous violent
| resistance.
|
| Sure, but we should have a sense of proportion here.
| Supreme court is hearing the case and the Govt has agreed
| to put the new law on hold for 1.5 years. Why not wait
| for Supreme court's judgement?
|
| How do you justify blocking highways for over 2 months
| causing great economic damage to your fellow countrymen,
| that too during COVID times when people are struggling to
| put the food on the table.
|
| I have read the bill and I am linking it here (this is
| Govt. Of India website). There is nothing there that can
| justify the violence we just witnessed.
|
| http://egazette.nic.in/WriteReadData/2020/222040.pdf
| AmericanChopper wrote:
| > So if this not a protest against the farm bill, they
| should drop the facade then.
|
| The protest is against the farm Bill, which is seen as a
| further act of oppression against minority groups, from a
| government formed to serve only Hindu India. The
| agriculture industry in India is dominated by minorities,
| mainly Sikhs, and mainly Punjabis. The aggrieved parties
| here see this as an act of economic oppression, and if
| you want to make sense of the controversy, you have to
| view it in the broader context of Indian history,
| especially wrt everything that's happened in the post-
| partition period. Tanks rolling up to the golden temple
| is still a very fresh memory for a lot of these
| protestors.
| chickenfries wrote:
| You think this "sword attack" was coordinated by WhatsApp and
| therefore they should all be cut off?
| actuator wrote:
| It would help your case to present a better source. As far as I
| know from Wiki source discussions for India sources like
| 'Republic', 'The Wire', Op something? tend to have extremely
| lopsided representation of events and facts.
| 0xFFFE wrote:
| Fair enough but I am not sure which news outlet can be
| considered "credible" these days. FWIW, here is Time of
| India. You can search "Singhu border SHO attack", there are
| plenty of news portals reporting it.
| https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/farmers-protest-
| in...
| monadic3 wrote:
| The us is at least a year late from sanctioning Modi. What's
| taking so long?
| didibus wrote:
| Would this be legal in the US? It's one thing for a private
| entity to choose to not extend services to someone, but for the
| government to censor communication channels, I hope this would
| not be legal in the US?
| trhway wrote:
| I think BART was turning off the network during Oscar Grant
| protests.
| throwawaysea wrote:
| It would be completely legal in the US to cutoff those acting
| illegally. The US also regularly compels private entities to do
| so. Warrants, subpoenas, national security letters, and other
| such mechanisms are means to compel public and private entities
| when the law is being broken. But that's the key requirement,
| that someone is acting illegally.
| blackoil wrote:
| Internet in Kashmir is effectively blocked for more then a year.
| bsan3 wrote:
| Exactly, this is the same thing. Hindu nationalist govt
| controlling media narrative.
| dirtyid wrote:
| https://internetshutdowns.in/
|
| A database of India internet killswitch events.
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(page generated 2021-01-30 23:01 UTC)