[HN Gopher] Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) - High-Intensity Peloton ...
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Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) - High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing
Hey HN! I'm Andy, founder of Aviron (https://avironactive.com/). We
make a high-intensity version of Peloton for rowing, with
competitive games, live races and strength programs. Our content
puts a focus on HIIT (high intensity interval training) due to its
physical and cognitive benefits. I feel like sometimes this pisses
the hardcore rowers off but I'm not a rower, I'm a tech guy. I also
think fitness is important and have been working out all of my
adult life. Before Aviron, I worked full time and long hours so I
did a lot of my thinking during late night gym sessions. Like many
people I avoided the rower because not only did I not enjoy cardio
but damn that machine was hard and boring. There was a moment at
some point in 2016 when I realized I could do something with this.
The connected fitness market in the US at that time was small but
growing rapidly. Aviron is a rowing machine because it's the most
efficient and effective workout you can have in a short amount of
time on one machine. The rowing motion is low impact, engages 85%
of muscles, is very difficult and as a result can also be boring.
This makes the rowing machine an ideal 'candidate' to pair with the
gaming-inspired, competitive content I began thinking about in
2016. The research was telling me there was a definite potential
market niche I could fill but what I didn't know was that no
manufacturer would speak to me. I probably called and emailed 50
manufacturers. I eventually kickstarted a few conversations and
finally a relationship, by flying to Taiwan, connecting with a
local who could translate, and knocking on doors in person. It
sounds reasonable in hindsight but the process to finalizing a
production contract start to finish took me a full year. A year of
trying to understand the manufacturing landscape, developing
relationships and convincing potential suppliers that I would
eventually be worth their time. Ultimately my key takeaway is that
Taiwanese manufacturing relationships are just that -
relationships. Manufacturers are looking for long-term trusting
partnerships and they are much less motivated by money than my
initial assumption. I'm reminded of this constantly - this month
alone I have received emails re: product delays twice - and I
stupidly tried to throw money at the problem, in the process
offending the Taiwan team by implying they would work harder if
money was on the table. Finding and building a solid relationship
with a production partner was challenging but I would give it a
7/10 relative to the hurdles that came later. The manufacturer had
no experience or interest in getting the machine to work along with
our custom android touchscreen. As much as I see myself as a "tech
guy", I don't have an engineering degree. My dad does and so does
my brother but I went the business degree route. Long story short,
figuring out the details of making these two pieces work together
was a nightmare. Again, in hindsight, it's kind of cool - I
understand my machine inside and out; I'm confident I could take it
apart down to the screws and put it back together. I can also work
comfortably with an oscilloscope and understand how most of the
components work on a typical fitness equipment circuit board -
there was a lot of circuit board soldering trial and error at one
point. I knew that I was taking on a lot with a software and
hardware venture but what nobody tells you is how many miles you're
going to drive and fly when you're taking on hardware. During our
slow tip-toe pivot from B2B to B2C sales, we discovered home
customers would find 10x the problems a gym would. There was a week
in 2019 I drove to a customer's home 6 hours away multiple times a
week for nearly a month. Each trip I thought we had found the
solution; the ride back was crushing. This was one of many problems
we faced. I'm happy to be able to say the bugs are mostly worked
out! Our customers navigate a 22" touchscreen to browse 250ish
content options - like my favorite and the first game we ever
developed - Last Hope, an end-of-the-world inspired game where
you're being chased by zombies. As your row to escape the Ai will
benchmark your fitness output and adjust the zombies' speed to
maintain a challenging pace for your fitness level. The content
for Aviron was developed with strength training and High Intensity
Interval Training (HIIT) in mind. For example, one of our 6
workouts categories is "Pros vs. Joes", a program that allows you
to compete against pre-recorded Olympians and professional athletes
in a race. Our customers are fitness enthusiasts who don't enjoy
long cardio workouts and crave the competitive and challenging pace
of activities like CrossFit and F45, at home - especially
throughout Covid. HIIT workouts tend to be shorter, have been
proven to improve cognitive ability and help slow the aging process
via preservation of DNA. To me, the dual cognitive and physical
benefits were really key. I began to work out in my teens,
physically I felt better and my self esteem improved. Cognitively,
I went from dealing with undiagnosed ADHD and struggling my way
through school to slowly noticing an improvement. People told me I
was "growing out of" ADHD - which is probably partially true - but
something clicked when I was researching fitness programming for
Aviron. Learning about HIIT and it's (data proven) benefits, I
started to realize that my commitment to consistent and challenging
physical fitness had likely paid a large part in my "growing out
it" as well. Currently, we have bootstrapped Aviron to a good
place; we've sold nearly a thousand rowers to gyms, hotels, schools
and even Nike headquarters as well as homes. Or churn rate is <1%
and our customers are telling us they're happy. And they're paying
their membership every month so we believe them. :) We are
continually working on Aviron to improve the software, content and
customer experience so if you have a chance please check us out and
let me know what you think. I'm excited to hear from the community.
I'll be hanging out in the comments all day.
Author : FullNameAndy
Score : 178 points
Date : 2021-01-25 16:53 UTC (1 days ago)
| cycomanic wrote:
| Great idea! I used to be a competitive rower. When I was working
| at a gym during my studies I was actually talking with the
| managers of running some rowing classes (similar to spinning).
|
| I think the main challenge with rowing machines (and the reason
| why we didn't do rowing classes), is that for beginners there is
| essentially only hard or off, i.e. it is difficult to adjust to
| different exhaustion levels. That leads to high frustration
| levels and is the reason why one rarely sees someone at the gym
| using the machines more than 5mins (and those that do are often
| former rowers). So HIT is probably the right way to go.
|
| The other challenge I is related to hardware. The reason why
| everyone is talking about the C2s is that pretty much every other
| machine is crap. The forces pulling on these machines are
| substantive and concept managed to make a machine that held up
| over time, unlike the others. So I hope you guys made those
| things sturdy enough.
|
| All the best, I hope you succeed!
| DennisP wrote:
| Why is it hard or off as a beginner? I had the same issue at
| first but now I can ease off and do a straight 30 minutes. I
| assumed it was mental but it sounds like it's technique.
|
| Fwiw I have the Oartec DX, and it's very solidly built.
|
| On dynamic rowers like this, the seat stays pretty much in one
| place and it's mainly the footpad that moves. Supposedly it
| puts less stress on the lower back and knees, and more closely
| simulates rowing on the water, so some elite rowing teams use
| them.
|
| I don't know about all that but I have a knee that gives me
| trouble sometimes, and with the Oartec I can put that foot on
| the ground and row with the other leg.
|
| https://oartec.com/
|
| https://www.rp3rowing.com/products/
|
| Concept2 makes one now too:
|
| https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/dynamic
|
| (I guess a drawback is it doesn't really lend itself to a nice
| big screen like OP's project.)
| cycomanic wrote:
| I have not seen any quantitative data on this, so just going
| of my own anecdotal evidence. I think there is a couple of
| aspects to this. One, beginners tend pull way too much with
| their arms and that tends to tire you out very quickly (your
| arms are pretty small muscles compared to your legs). It also
| requires some experience on the ergo to learn that you can
| make hard or soft pulls at the same stroke rate (again this
| is difficult if you pull mainly with the arms), so beginners
| tend to just adjust stroke rate. The other aspect is that
| rowing produces lactate in pretty high rates because of so
| many muscles being involved. That takes a bit of getting used
| to.
| DennisP wrote:
| Ah, interesting. My back has gotten significantly stronger
| and that has also taken a lot of load off my arms. I've
| been working on "legs then back then arms" and keeping my
| back straight, and with a good pull from my back, my arms
| can almost coast. I've also been working on getting good
| speed with low stroke rate.
| malandrew wrote:
| > I guess a drawback is it doesn't really lend itself to a
| nice big screen like OP's project.
|
| I don't see why not. My RP3 uses any Android tablet. I have
| like a 7-8" tablet in there, but there is no reason I
| couldn't put a much larger tablet like an 18.4" Galaxy View.
| DennisP wrote:
| How do you like the RP3 in general? I thought seriously
| about that before getting the Oartec, mainly because it was
| cheaper and I didn't have a strong need for portability.
| malandrew wrote:
| I never tried the Oartec so I can't compare to it, but
| I'm really happy with it. There's also now the RP3 Model
| T that was released a few months after I got the regular
| RP3. I'm in the PNW, so I was able to save on shipping by
| picking up the RP3 in person from the US distributor.
|
| I'm really quite happy with it and far prefer it to a C2.
| The software is pretty decent too and the force curve in
| particular is quite useful to help you figure out how to
| connect all three motions smoothly for mostly consistent
| even power.
|
| Family and friends that have used it have struggled with
| getting started with it but mainly because they've
| learned such bad form from static machines like the C2.
| But near as I can tell that will happen with anyone used
| to a static rower that's never been on the water or
| coached on proper form.
| DennisP wrote:
| Cool, thanks. Didn't know about the new one.
|
| Do you feel like the RP3 teaches proper form, for someone
| who hasn't had coaching or been on the water?
|
| A drawback of the Oartec is that the display is
| rudimentary. It'll show you speed/distance, watts, or
| cal/hr, and that's it.
| kitd wrote:
| _The other challenge I is related to hardware. The reason why
| everyone is talking about the C2s is that pretty much every
| other machine is crap. The forces pulling on these machines are
| substantive and concept managed to make a machine that held up
| over time, unlike the others. So I hope you guys made those
| things sturdy enough._
|
| Robustness isn't the only reason C2s are considered the best.
| Unlike all the cheap brands, Concept2 have very accurately
| measured the moment of inertia of their flywheel and have an
| exacting manufacturing process that ensures it stays true.
|
| As a result, the power data you see on the screen is an
| accurate measure of the work you're doing.
|
| Most (not all) machines guesstimate it in comparison. You can
| just go with HR if you want, but don't pretend you can compare
| any other figures sensibly with a C2.
|
| Point of note: the "distance" figure on a C2 is based on what a
| coxless four would have covered under the same power.
| ramraj07 wrote:
| Huh I love C2s but have always felt that each rower s values
| were different. I'd feel the same level of exhaustion in one
| machine on a 3 compared to a ten on a different machine.
| Assumed some tolerance was off!
| andylynch wrote:
| Yes, like other commenter said - check the drag factor when
| you hop on each machine.
| kart23 wrote:
| are you aware of the drag factor? Afaik, that is the exact
| measurement of resistance, not the damper on the side. The
| damper setting and friction will differ greatly from
| machine to machine, especially older, worn out machines.
|
| https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/training/tips-and-
| gen...
|
| https://www.concept2.com/news/damper-and-drag-olympians
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| You might be surprised to hear that regardless of what the
| damper is set to, the metrics do not change on the display if
| you were to maintain the same SPM and stroke length.
| kart23 wrote:
| Not sure what you're claiming, but SPM and stroke length
| isn't a measure of how much work you are doing. For
| instance, you could have the exact same SPM, stroke length,
| and damper settings, and row either a 3:00 or a 2:00 500m
| time.
| jrudolph wrote:
| Certainly more accurate than most other ergs (that's how we
| rowers call them). However, it's not perfect. Nothing is ever
| perfect when it comes to measuring real world biomechanics. I
| did competitive rowing in my youth + I've spent a couple
| years building rowing technology, sensors + telemetry, so I
| can maybe offer a few interesting insights about their
| issues. Don't get me wrong, C2 ergs are great craftsmanship,
| built like tanks and I've spent a few hundreds hours on these
| machines (blaming the weather gods and the winter season).
|
| 1) The PM2 units (the old LCD ones, stock on Model C ergs)
| were particularly bad, suffering from some well known
| "issues". The sensors in them had not a high enough sample
| rate + high hysteresis in the sensors. That means that
| "pulling hard" at the catch (for non-on-the-water rowers: the
| beginning of a stroke cycle, when your hands are closest to
| the flywheel) and then backing off the handle force rewards
| you with higher measured power than actual.
|
| 2) This became a lot better with the PM4 generation (stock on
| Model D and up). However they still have another issue. The
| force exerted by the suspension cord that pulls the chain
| back into the housing is not subtracted from the measurement.
| The sensor only measures effective force/rpm on the flywheel.
| This is the reason why virtual regattas (serious competitions
| anyway) are always staged on brand new ergs where the
| suspension cords have not different levels of fatigue. The
| ergs are typically sold off after the events (which is of
| course a marketing/logistics trick just as well).
|
| "Proper" testing on a C2 thus involves measuring handle force
| directly. This can be done by linking a strain gauge between
| handle and chain.
|
| 3) Speaking of racing events, it's pretty interesting how C2
| has enabled virtual/digital racing long before "digitalising"
| things was a big trend. The interface that the PM4s use for
| regattas is based on RS485 over RJ45 (you can also use USB
| but that's not the recommended way for large scale > 16 seats
| races). The PM3 were wired using telephone/RJ11 and I think
| it was RS232 IIRC.
|
| 4) The single most important "calibration" on a Concept rower
| is the Drag Factor (the displays can show it in an advanced
| menu). The drag factor is essentially how fast the flywheel
| slows down, i.e. how much drag it has. Different ergs have
| different amounts of dust in them and wear on the bearings,
| which is why the "flap setting" really shouldn't be used as
| an absolute/comparable measure between machines.
|
| Racing with a higher/lower drag factor is purely a matter of
| preference of the athlete and where their personal optimum
| for performing mechanical work lies. You can think of it like
| a gearing to increase resistance. In "on the water" rowing we
| can change gearing using inner/outer handle length of the oar
| on the gate to achieve a similar effect. This is very
| important since speed vs. the water varies a lot between boat
| classes from about ~4m/s in a single (1x) to ~6m/s in a
| 8+/4x. Our testing protocols recommended 125-140 (female-
| male).
|
| 5) While everyone obsesses over watts, that's not the whole
| picture. To move a boat (virtual or real) you need work, not
| power. Since ergs don't float, their mechanics are a lot
| simpler than a real rowing boat. Work on an erg is handle
| force x distance, i.e. you integrate the force-distance curve
| of the handle. That means long strokes are better - the most
| common beginner mistake is to waste stroke length.
|
| 6) Related to 1) and 5) there's a special "erg technique" of
| pulling the chord up the chest as you move angle your back
| backwards at the end. This gains you extra stroke length and
| "stealing" a bit more mechanical work due to sensor
| hysteresis. This works on a PM4 and up too. You can only get
| away with this on an erg. On the water pulling off this sort
| of trick at race speeds will most likely eject you from the
| boat. It may look like a funny catapult but ejecting from the
| boat can 100% kill you if your head hits a rigger or blade.
| See [0] for a close encounter.
|
| 7a) "Ergs don't float" is a saying for another important
| reason. They fail to simulate the impulse exchange between
| rower and boat mass. This is very important for real world
| rowing performance because minimizing boat shell velocity
| fluctuations means less mechanical work required to travel
| the same distance [1]. This is also the reason why it's
| preferable to have a "front-loaded" force curve profile.
| Coincidentally the sensor hysteresis of the concept ergs
| rewards that... maybe it's engineered intentionally? :-)
|
| 7b) Anyways, Avoiding vertical shell movement is of similar
| importance as wetted surface (and thus drag) increases
| massively if you push the boat down into the water. Athletes
| thus have a to maintain very delicate balance between
| stretcher and handle forces not to offset the systems center
| of mass during the stroke cycle. None of that matters on an
| erg.
|
| 7c) And most important: Ergs don't simulate the interaction
| of impulse exchanges between a whole crew of rowers that can
| never be perfectly in sync. Concept sells "Sliders" for the
| C2 ergs that you can use for a single erg but also to link
| together multiple ergs to a crew. If you haven't tried this,
| I can highly recommend this as it makes it much more
| realistic and also a lot more challenging. From my coaching
| experience I can also recommend it especially to beginners.
| It may sound counterintuitive, but it's much less forgiving
| to errors in your motion sequence/force application and will
| thus make you a better (and more healthier!) rower much
| quicker.
|
| 8) Rowers are an incredible bunch of creative and resourceful
| people. There's so many tinkerers in the community... a shout
| to a couple of things in the erg space:
|
| - Waterrower hit big thanks to House of Cards. This plus
| cross-fit certainly made rowing much more popular as a sport.
| Waterrowers are not used in serious capacity in competitive
| training though as far as I'm aware.
|
| - Augletics are a bunch of former competitive rowers building
| an erg using a electromagnetic brake (that can support more
| realistic force profiles/dynamics). And you don't get that
| "wooooosh" sound ringing in your ears that won't go away for
| hours after a 90min C2 erg session...
|
| - Biorower simulates proper sculling technique, boat rotation
| and uses mechanical gears instead of a flywheel
|
| Anyhow - great to see more innovation like Aviron in the
| space even if it's "just" targeted at recreational/fitness
| use case. It's a fabulous sport and I applaud you for making
| it more accessible. Hope it gets people to dip their toes so
| they may one day decide to get their feet wet and hit their
| local rowing club.
|
| [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pH2k_026KrY [1]
| https://www.rowinginmotion.com/drag-efficiency-rowing/
| kitd wrote:
| I fully take all your (excellent) points about the
| differences between the erg and the boat, but I was really
| talking about power measurement at the flywheel.
|
| One point of yours though:
|
| _While everyone obsesses over watts, that 's not the whole
| picture. To move a boat (virtual or real) you need work,
| not power_
|
| You are correct, but just for one stroke. The thing slowing
| down a boat or spinning flywheel is _drag_ , which is a
| power dissipator. => Generating more power means you
| overcome more drag == go faster.
|
| cf. when you take the rate up by reducing the time on the
| recovery while keeping work/stroke the same. Your speed
| increases as your rate of (the same) work increases.
|
| edit: Also, forgot to mention this
|
| _Concept sells "Sliders" for the C2 ergs that you can use
| for a single erg but also to link together multiple ergs to
| a crew. If you haven't tried this, I can highly recommend
| this as it makes it much more realistic and also a lot more
| challenging._
|
| I made my own! https://youtu.be/0BvX8leh1_c
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Thanks for taking the time to educate myself and the
| community. Like you said, I hope we are able to introduce
| more people to this awesome exercise and sport + help
| people achieve their fitness goals.
| DrOctagon wrote:
| Thank you for all that detail! A tangential question: At
| elite levels how well does performance on an ergo translate
| to on water performance? I rowed reasonably successfully at
| a junior level and I was much faster in a boat than others
| that would kick my butt on an ergo. This was always
| explained away as better technique. I'd be interested to
| know at a level where everyone has great technique if
| ergo/boat performance is more consistent.
| cycomanic wrote:
| I only have an anecdote, but when I was rowing
| competitively ergo competitions just started to become a
| thing. I know that some of them were won by nonrowers
| even against olympians. IIRC this was particularly true
| in the lightwave class, because they tend to be less
| genetic "freaks".
| jrudolph wrote:
| Ergs don't float :-) The most important factor before
| converting raw erg performance (i.e average watts over a
| 2000m race) to water performance is to consider it in
| relation athlete mass. This is intuitive because more
| mass means more displacement creating more drag. The erg
| doesn't consider any of that.
|
| In our testing protocols we had a metric from watt vs
| mass called p-index. I'm not sure exactly how it's
| calculated anymore but there should be a published paper
| about this somewhere [0].
|
| The lightweights usually had higher p-index values than
| the heavyweights, though values from the top heavyweights
| that also did well where usually close to the
| lightweights. That's just anecdotal though.
|
| There are tons more differences. The next important
| factor that comes to mind is technique, obviously. My
| guess is the next biggest contribution to performance
| difference is the catch, how quickly an athlete is able
| to burry the blade in the water and apply force without
| losing precious stroke length. This requires precise
| timing of vertical and horizontal movement. You do it
| right when you see a small v shaped splash as the blade
| enters the water. The measurement for that is called slip
| angle. The erg is much less picky about that.
|
| I already mentioned some other points in my previous
| post, I bet there is tons more.
|
| [0] Volker Nolte, Dieter Altenburg and Valery Kleshnev
| are great starting points when it comes to rowing
| research. Theres plenty more if you dig in.
| DrOctagon wrote:
| Of course! Thank you. My rowing days are long behind me
| but when everything comes together there truly is no
| sport like it!
| rkangel wrote:
| My impression as a rower who spent a lot of time with
| people rowing in the Oxford and Cambridge boat race is
| that the mix is not wildly different. The same rules seem
| to roughly apply as at lower levels where in an 8 you
| have people who are more powerful but with less technique
| in the middle of the boat, while the ends have the people
| with better technique.
|
| One other point is that it's not just about technique but
| ability to maintain it. What impresses me about Olympic
| rowing is how perfect their technique continues to be at
| the end of the race. Having good technique is one thing,
| but keeping that technique as your muscles tire is very
| difficult.
| cycomanic wrote:
| I'm aware of that. I would say that's the main reason why
| they are popular with all the rowers, but I doubt it's why
| they are popular with gyms for example.
|
| Note of interest, when I was a junior the concepts started to
| become popular. I was training mainly on the model B, which
| sounded like a jetplane, incredibly loud! It was such a
| change when they brought out the model C. I have never seen a
| model A in real life, but they sure look like made in a
| garage.
|
| model B: https://www.concept2.com/service/indoor-
| rowers/model-b
|
| model A: https://www.concept2.com/service/indoor-
| rowers/model-a
| andylynch wrote:
| The other reason they are popular with gyms (and boat
| clubs) is twofold; they are virtually indestructible, and
| whenever do need to replace worn parts, their product
| support is ace - details manualed, schematics, and parts,
| even for that forty year old model A.
|
| This support extends right across their lineup - at big
| regattas, they will be there doing for free oar repairs.
|
| If you want, you can retrofit the latest PM5 monitor on
| every model, even including the A, and use it on Zwift and
| friends.
|
| (I have a C2 from '96, and it still goes just like the new
| one in the gym)
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Thanks for the feedback! So far customers are happy and we
| haven't had many issues. Its a big challenge for sure, but
| someone had to try and do something different :)
| malandrew wrote:
| Completely disagree about all other machines being crap. The
| RP3 is way better than even a C2 with dynamic slides.
|
| The C2 is popular because it's the best available at the ~$1k
| price point and can be purchased locally in most markets.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| We appreciate that. So far the machines have held up in
| commercial facilities as well as homes and you're right we did
| our best to make sure they hold up for the long haul!
| beloch wrote:
| C2 really is the monster in the room. The rowing machine market
| is less diverse than exercise bikes, and C2 sits atop the
| mountain. Anyone who rows seriously (and many who don't) have
| used a C2 at some point.
|
| The Aviron Impact Series (an odd name for a low-impact exercise
| machine) rower is $2149, while a C2 Model D is $900.
|
| The Model D has been in gyms for decades. Literally, your local
| gym may have one that's decades old and still in perfect shape.
| Olympic rowers train on them. A significant portion of people
| who row already have one and aren't going to need a replacement
| any time soon.
|
| The video on Aviron's website focuses heavily on the software,
| but the rower itself does not look like it should cost twice
| what a C2 does. The belt is plastic. The rail's finish looks
| like it will wear off. The rear support looks less sturdy and
| stable than that of a C2. The ramrod straight handle looks
| blister-inducing. The whole thing looks very plastic. Note that
| I'm not saying the rower isn't worth the money. The build
| quality and ergonomics might be excellent. It just doesn't
| _look_ like a rower that 's worth 2.39 C2's.
|
| The display is a big improvement over anything C2 sells, but
| $1249 can buy a pretty nice display and a basic computer to run
| it, or a big ol' tablet and a mount.
|
| Peloton probably had an easier time entering the exercise bike
| market because there wasn't any one competitor as dominant as
| C2 is. However, they do now offer an app that lets people use
| their software and classes without buying a Peloton bike.
|
| The question for Aviron is, can they sell their rower without
| their software being exclusive to it? They would undoubtedly
| find more users if they supported other rowers, C2
| specifically, but would the extra monthly memberships bring in
| more than sales from their rower if the software remained
| exclusive to it?
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Let me start off by saying the C2 is an amazing rower, but we
| thought we could improve on its design for the regular user
| who cares most about a fun and engaging experience. For
| example, the belt is industrial nylon (not plastic), the same
| material as seat belts. The main benefit to this is it makes
| the rower quieter and feels smoother. The rail is aluminum
| and legs and frame are made from steel, which makes it stable
| and is why the Aviron rower weights twice as much as the C2.
| Finally, it is selling for $1999 with taxes, shipping, and
| the screen included.
| pitaa wrote:
| > the belt is industrial nylon (not plastic)
|
| Last I checked, nylon was still a thermoplastic.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| True. Just sounded cheap calling it plastic. My mistake!
| Ninjinka wrote:
| Am I missing something? Your site says $2149, not $1999.
| And it has a $29/mo membership.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| After staying on the site for some time, a pop-up form
| asking for your email in return for an additional $150
| off will appear.
|
| And yes, the membership is $29/mo or $25/mo if a year is
| paid up front.
| ganafagol wrote:
| Sorry for sounding negative but that's half a gym
| membership right there. Except for a gym membership I can
| go 24/7 down the block (5 min walk) get access to 8 C2
| rowers, a bunch of barbells, dumbbells, treadmills and
| spinning bikes as needed, as well as a sauna and space to
| train in many different ways with friends. Covid will
| blow over, blowing 300 bucks on a subscription for such a
| narrow training gear will just not feel like the right
| tradeoff.
|
| (Former competitive rower here, so YMMV.)
|
| Alright, off to the gym. :)
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| I agree. But a lot of people split the cost of the
| machine and membership with multiple people in a
| household.
|
| And a lot of people value the convenience of being able
| to have a fun and engaging workout any time, in the
| comfort of home.
| mrkwse wrote:
| That is an appropriate argument, but afaik it's along the
| lines of Peloton's subscription pricing. Peloton's shown
| there's a clearly established market that will pay that
| sort of price for a home fitness service.
| Grustaf wrote:
| But isn't Peloton fairly unique? Like Crossfit, it
| somehow has gained a huge following that is not directly
| related to the actual product, it's much more about
| marketing nous.
|
| That is much harder to reproduce than simply building a
| solid physical product.
| maerF0x0 wrote:
| +1000 to this.
|
| You dont buy a peleton because you need economical
| exercise. You buy a peleton as a form of conspicuous
| consumption and "exclusive" group membership (I'm a spin
| _athelete_!) .
|
| The marketing hyperbole gets eaten up in our IG/social
| media obsessed environment.
| jsjsbdkj wrote:
| As someone who has a Model D in my basement, this seems
| wildly off-base. The cheap water rowers with plastic belts
| I've used in hotel gyms felt way worse than the metal belt.
| The noise is almost exclusively from the flywheel and not
| the chain anyways. And stability has never been an issue -
| I love that the C2 is relatively light and easy to move.
| I've never used a C2 that felt anything but rock solid,
| even the ancient ones at my old gym.
|
| I feel like a cool business model would be to make a
| replacement color screen for the C2s that can do more
| stuff. Their built-in games and programs are fun but very
| limited. I would love to have a Peloton experience on a 500
| dollar screen I could add to my existing rower.
| robomartin wrote:
| I wish you great success.
|
| That said, be aware that true rowers hate some of this stuff
| because you can actually hurt people through various kinds of
| repetitive motion injuries if you don't teach, promote and
| highlight proper technique. The people you have on video yanking
| on the handle are a sure-bet formula for getting hurt. Which
| means you could be looking at one ore more lawsuits in the
| future.
|
| It's the same with lifting.
|
| Context: Rower for quite some time, currently own and have owned
| Concept 2 machines for years. Owned a range or rowing shells for
| years. Also strength training.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Thank you and I completely agree. I gave my parents a rower and
| making sure they use proper form and technique were critical.
| We continue to work on ways to prevent injuries.
| useful wrote:
| I have a C2 and a Wahoo Kickr.
|
| I think you are targeting the wrong market if you intend to build
| a machine.
|
| As a cyclist, the market sweet spot to me is the ability to set a
| wattage on a rower and have the machine automatically adjust the
| resistance so that I can hit the correct wattage/hour.
|
| On the bike, holding a steady cadence and having the machine
| adjust the resistance so I can hit whatever % of FTP I'm wanting
| is the killer feature the C2 is missing.
|
| All the other comments referencing injuries/etc are reflective of
| the need to make an ERG that allows you to just say "do 25
| strokes/min" and if you blow up or cant hold the pace, drop the
| target wattage. It's harder to hurt yourself if the machine is
| setting the difficulty based on your pace and putting some sane
| max limits in.
| cycomanic wrote:
| I have a tacx bike, no rower at the moment, but I get on them
| every time I'm at the gym.
|
| I think the smart bike and rower are very different in terms of
| what you'd do with them. In contrast to a smart bike a rower
| who constantly adjusts is much harder to use. In fact on low
| resistance rowers are almost impossible to use. It's also much
| easier than on the bike to row at a specific wattage without
| ever adjusting the resistance (mind you that requires some
| technique).
| useful wrote:
| Once you get the "feel" doing wattage is pretty easy on a
| static trainer if you change gears or your pedal stroke rate.
| That amount of practice and effort to learn when you only
| want to spend 10-20 minutes working out is beyond a beginner.
| Aviron's whole website is built around games and varied
| resistance. Having the rower do all the thinking for the user
| ala zwift workouts on a tacx is attractive.
|
| I don't understand why pelotons are popular when a
| tacx/wahoo/etc are lightyears ahead in feel and blunting the
| peaks of "pain" from beginner mistakes. The more advanced
| ERGs that adjust are super forgiving and the same would be
| for rowing, avoiding pulling too much lbf and having your
| arms hurt for weeks = avoiding the workouts.
|
| People doing HIIT cardio usually blow up if they put out 10%
| more wattage for a minute or two than their FTP. If a machine
| makes it so you can workout "forever" and simplifies the
| interface of games/workouts so users only need to focus on a
| single metric for game while adjusting all the others, it
| would be a killer feature.
| cycomanic wrote:
| Peleton is popular because it's going for a very different
| market. Those are people who do spinning classes, which has
| only a very small overlap with spinning classes.
|
| In particular they don't really look for the same things
| that someone who buys a smartbike is looking for. Also I
| would add that in terms of build quality, spinning bikes
| are much better IMO than tacx or wahoo.
|
| A bit of a tangent, but it's a shame that Kettler bikes
| never became popular, their hardware is top-notch (proper
| cycling bar, campagnolo ergopower grips), but they never
| implemented ANT or bluetoothsmart so were not compatible
| with Zwift and instead tried to push their own platform.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Thanks for the feedback, that's actually a great idea and
| something I think we would consider implementing in a future
| release.
| mawise wrote:
| > I feel like sometimes this pisses the hardcore rowers off but
| I'm not a rower, I'm a tech guy. I also think fitness is
| important and have been working out all of my adult life.
|
| Some other comments have mentioned the Concept 2 and how it's the
| standard. It sounds like you're actually targeting non-rowers who
| want a Peloton-like experience. (Sort of like how Peloton doesn't
| really target the cycling community). Is that how you're thinking
| about positioning?
| elliekelly wrote:
| I'm not OP but I suspect I'm in their target demographic.
| Orangetheory Fitness doesn't use the Concept2 and no one cares.
| I've never once heard anyone at Orangetheory complain that the
| machine wasn't a Concept2.
|
| I don't think the former rowers in this thread complaining
| about the machine are at all reflective of the public at large.
| jedc wrote:
| I'm an OrangeTheory user and complain to my rower friends
| that OT doesn't use Concept2's. But it's not like I have any
| hope of getting OT to adopt a different product, and it's a
| relatively small part of an OT workout.
| rloomba wrote:
| lol you're paying $20 for a 45 min class at Orange Theory...
| if you're shelling out $2500 for a new piece of gym
| equipment, you're going to care a little bit more.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Our customers justify the high price when you consider
| multiple family members would use the machine. Plus,
| convenience has been a major factor. Not having to book a
| class time, find parking, etc. they rather pay more than
| deal with that.
| AWildC182 wrote:
| Just for context, standard is defined on two fronts.
|
| 1. Each machine computes effective Watts differently, so
| pulling your guts out might be 1kW on one machine, and 400W on
| another. Whichever one everyone has the most experience with
| wins here.
|
| 2. There are a bunch of different designs across about three
| different resistance modes available A. air B. water and C.
| hydraulic piston. Air is generally regarded as the best as it
| doesn't change felt resistance with time, though it can be
| somewhat noisy, maybe 70dB. Water heats up as all the energy is
| dumped into it without anywhere else for it to go, so the
| viscosity changes very noticeably over a long workout. These
| also tend to have a nylon strap instead of a chain which
| stretches and can cause an odd sensation. Finally the worst,
| hydraulic piston, which has the smallest mass to dump energy
| into, will change resistance dramatically in a short time, and
| have been known to fail with experienced rowers, sometimes
| explosively.
|
| There is room for an electrical resistance variant in this
| lineup, as has been shown with cycling, though it's important
| to note that thermodynamics specifies the energy has to go
| somewhere, and you may end up with a dangerously hot resistor
| bank somewhere on the machine.
|
| It should also be noted that experienced rowers can output a
| considerable amount of power. Enough to cause piston rowers to
| overheat and explode/vent. Just because your resident
| mechanical engineer can't break the prototype doesn't mean you
| shouldn't find someone who can hit National Team numbers and
| have them go at it for an hour straight.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Thanks for the context. We have a few Olympic rowers as part
| of "Pros vs Joes" on our rower. So far, the rower is still
| working :)
| ganafagol wrote:
| Couldn't the electric variant convert the energy into
| electricty? With the guys in the club we many times wondered
| why we can't use the 8x 250W that are pulled saturday morning
| to power a microwave oven and everybody gets heated lunch
| right after the workout? Or use it to drive an AC on a hot
| summer day.
| t-writescode wrote:
| > maybe 70dB
|
| Decidedly more than 70dB
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yedBwDs7XH8
|
| Water rowers peak at nearly 80.
|
| The Concept 2 clears 100dB
|
| edit: apparently some water rowers are louder than others.
| The last in their video hit approx 90dB
| AWildC182 wrote:
| Depends on where you measure from but yea, 70 might be low.
| You can talk over two dozen heavies pulling 2ks on air
| rowers which definitely places it under 100dB.
| t-writescode wrote:
| When you're looking for a rowing machine for your
| apartment, these numbers become much more important.
|
| I ended up with a low-price water rower. I can watch TV
| while rowing and can still hear the TV at a mostly
| reasonable volume.
| akiselev wrote:
| _> It should also be noted that experienced rowers can output
| a considerable amount of power. Enough to cause piston rowers
| to overheat and explode /vent. Just because your resident
| mechanical engineer can't break the prototype doesn't mean
| you shouldn't find someone who can hit National Team numbers
| and have them go at it for an hour straight._
|
| Another reason why Concept2 is the standard is they sell
| reasonably priced spare parts for all of their machines going
| back to the first one they released in 1981 [1]
|
| [1] https://shop.concept2.com/55-model-a
| AWildC182 wrote:
| I don't think I've ever seen a model A in the wild but I've
| seen plenty of B's still working. I have a 20yo model C
| that I upgraded with a new monitor and handle and it still
| works like it was unboxed yesterday.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Exactly. I really should have stated this above. You explained
| it perfectly.
| nonrower2 wrote:
| Not a rower here. I do however own a concept2 and will never buy
| a machine in order to try your product. Any way to connect my
| concept 2?
| 2snakes wrote:
| How do you deal with the seat problem? Anything over 30 min is a
| pain in the a$$.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Good question. I think its the same with other equipment, like
| spin bikes. It'll hurt a lot the first few times. But your butt
| get used to it over time.
| [deleted]
| abarringer wrote:
| I have health issues and I try to correlate cause and effect.
|
| I use a rower several times a day, it sits next to my desk. One
| thing I would love is an API that enables download of key stats
| like watts, times, etc.
|
| I value raw data over slick apps. I have my own data sources for
| heart rate, glucose and a few other things. It would be great to
| integrate this into my home brew system.
|
| Dexcom has a decent API for instance https://developer.dexcom.com
|
| Or start a line of exercise/health equipment that features
| integrations with fitness watches, indoor air quality
| monitors(VOC's), blood pressure, glucose, blood oxygen,
| weather(smog, pollen) etc etc.
|
| It should help answer questions like Does my blood
| pressure/glucose behave different when: * row for 10 minutes and
| generate _x_ watts * pollen is high, smog is dense * use a
| standing desk vs sitting
|
| So far it seems that busting out 10 minutes on a rower seems to
| have positive effects for at least 24hrs unlike moderate running.
| I would love to get the actual data on a chart.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| I agree. One of the biggest challenges we have is integrating
| to other apps and products. Even getting the Apple or Garmin
| watch to integrate is difficult because of their limited/closed
| ecosystem.
| nradov wrote:
| The latest Garmin wearable devices support the ANT+ FE-C
| profile so if you implement that then it should just work.
| There's no need to specifically integrate with their closed
| ecosystem.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| hmm. Very true. Thanks for the idea.
| biztos wrote:
| I might be the target market for this.
|
| I have a Concept 2 at a house I go to a couple times a year for
| up to a month each time. My normal cardio is a standard treadmill
| at the gym, and I bought the C2 because a serious treadmill
| wouldn't work at that location.
|
| It has been really hard to get into the rowing thing. I've never
| done crew so there's no external context for me. I find it's a
| great way to get the heart rate up in a short time, but totally
| lacks the zone-out meditative quality of the treadmill.
|
| If there were a rowing machine that had some built in motivator
| that would make me go use it every day for more than a few
| minutes at a time, and it shipped worldwide, I'd seriously
| consider it for my next country place.
|
| My motivation problems notwithstanding, I will say I think the
| Concept 2 is a great machine and absolutely feels like it's worth
| the price. The fact I'd find the same machine in lots of gyms
| would be a plus if I could get over the hump. So fitness-center
| ubiquity should also be a goal I think.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| What you're describing really resonates with me - I knew it was
| a good workout but staying on for any length of time is
| challenging if you're not a "rower". The experience the content
| provides is what keeps our customers getting back on the
| machine every day and why we took the direction we did with
| Aviron. Thanks for sharing your experience.
| arkh wrote:
| Parler, Aviron: is the new naming trend gonna be using French
| words?
|
| HIIT workouts are good but doing some cardio helps. And for
| beginner rowers I think it is a good idea to have learning
| programs so they don't fuck-up their back by not using their legs
| to their full potential. A side camera with some live coaching
| sessions would be tremondously helpful there.
| dvirsky wrote:
| FWIW Aviron means Airplane in Hebrew.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| You're 100% right - and that's the nice thing about purchasing
| an Aviron rower for your home, you're able to incorporate
| cardio, strength and HIIT workouts on one machine. We do have
| learning programs for beginners that show proper form etc. The
| machine also senses pace and output and will let the user know
| if they are moving too fast (for example). Live coaching would
| be cool - thanks for the suggestion!
| CalChris wrote:
| The C2 is the Toyota Camry of rowers. This seems to me to need an
| application of Rule 39 of Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design.
| 39. (alternate formulation) The three keys to keeping a new human
| space program affordable and on schedule: 1) No new
| launch vehicles. 2) No new launch vehicles. 3)
| Whatever you do, don't develop any new launch vehicles.
|
| https://spacecraft.ssl.umd.edu/akins_laws.html
| sincerely wrote:
| The same would supposedly apply to Peloton, and yet they're
| successful beyond belief...
| gavanwoolery wrote:
| I gotta say, rowing had zero appeal for me until I got into HIIT
| (F45).
|
| Even though I have been using it for three years, I would still
| say it is the most punishing/rewarding piece of equipment at my
| gym, and probably the only one that is still capable of leaving
| me (literally) breathless.
|
| I've been thinking about getting a rowing machine for home just
| for some quick two-minute bursts of cardio to break up my
| sitting, so this might be a worthwhile purchase when I can budget
| it in. Also my wife has been looking to buy a Peloton so maybe I
| can convince her to get this instead. :)
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Your experience really speaks to our target demo :) and you're
| not wrong - it is definitely punishing (good word to describe
| it!) which is why we really focused (and continue to focus) on
| making our content fun and engaging.
| m00dy wrote:
| Hello,
|
| I have been rowing since beginning of Covid and I think it is a
| great exercise for a software developer.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Thanks for sharing your experience. Rowing is definitely making
| a comeback and is becoming more popular.
| the_arun wrote:
| I feel like how to tap this energy from these exercises as
| electricity & store them in batteries.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Some fitness equipment do this already. I'd love to see it
| happen with our rower, but I feel the screen is a bit too
| hungry.
| wyck wrote:
| I wish someone who figure out how to make a paddling machine, it
| much better for your core, back and overall everything than a
| rowing machine.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| someone probably will.. eventually :)
| awhitby wrote:
| Thanks for sharing. Isn't it odd though that of the four product
| photos on the Home Fitness page two focus on the screen (sure -
| your selling point) and two show non-rowing workouts. None of
| them really show rowing.
|
| Not everyone can or will watch the video - you're leaving me with
| the takeaway that this is a rather expensive dip bench.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Good observation. Thanks for the feedback!
| maerF0x0 wrote:
| NordicTrac RW600 for half the price and no recurring membership.
|
| https://www.nordictrack.com/rowing-machines/rw600
|
| Many people fail to realize it does not have to be expensive to
| get "fit". (north) Americans have the bad habit of buying
| expensive equipment long before it's required for their task /
| sport, opting to spend their way into an image before earning
| their way by doing.
|
| To paint an analogy, people have bought >$1000 sport bicycles
| they ride a few times a year, effectively lowering their
| resistance and making the work out they need ~easier~
| (physically) than it otherwise would have been.
|
| Of course, it's not my place to dictate how people choose to
| spend their money, but marketing is not helping people who think
| they have to buy an expensive piece of equipment, as a pre-
| requisitite, to achieve a goal.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Great point. I will add that RW600 does require a reoccurring
| membership for $468/yr after the first year.
| OliverJones wrote:
| Get your stuff working on Concept IIs as well as your own
| ergometers. Just do it. Seriously. If your subscription business
| depends on selling your customers your own ergometer first,
| you'll have a very steep barrier between you and success.
|
| Recent models of the C2 monitor have connectivity features.
|
| There's an opportunity for remote-community features for indoor
| rowing like what Zwift offers for biking. And you won't have to
| deal with shipping heavy stuff to every customer before they
| subscribe.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| A huge part of our experience is the electronically controlled
| resistance that adds up to 100+ lbs of force. Our high-
| intensity games and strength content, which differentiates us,
| requires this and the reason why we opted to build our own
| rower instead of just an app or working with any existing
| machines.
| freerobby wrote:
| I can see why the ECR piece is a handy input for the games,
| but having tried every connected rowing app under the sun, I
| think what is missing in this space is compelling content and
| compelling software on the same platform. As a fellow tech
| guy/non-rower who just wants to stay in shape, it's hard for
| me to see how success here hinges on ECR rather than the
| software and content. But I also understand you've already
| made a large bet on this, and I hope it pays off for you.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Thanks! There are a variety of other reasons we decided to
| make our own rower. So far I'm happy with our decision :)
| sebmellen wrote:
| Any way to bump HN readers up the shipping queue, perchance.
| ivankirigin wrote:
| So fish-game on the Concept2 isn't enough for yall?
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Hahaha. To each their own.
| Mulpze15 wrote:
| I am very impressed with what you did, and thank you for sharing
| the back stories about dealing with manufacturers and the real
| life pains of troubleshooting customers.
|
| This is real, tough entrepreneurship, and I am very surprised by
| the number of implied criticisms about how not perfect your
| product, price, positioning...
|
| The number of issues you solved already, the fact you have a
| happy installed based is impressive. Further iterations will make
| it even better, feels like you've done the hardest part....
| Congrats.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Thank you!!! I appreciate you taking the time to write this.
| Tough crowd but they make some valid points I can learn from.
| mingabunga wrote:
| Came to say the same thing. Congratulations for persevering in
| the face of lots of frustrations, and coming out with a winner
| of a product. I know how much of a PIA getting physical
| products designed, manufactured and shipped is. Sounds like you
| have a lot of happy customers for the segment you're targeting.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Many thanks!!! It has been a long and painful journey, but
| also extremely rewarding.
| snarkypixel wrote:
| I already have a rowing machine, I wish I could simply add the
| Aviron screen to it.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| I get it. This it the most common question we are asked. A huge
| part of our experience is the electronically controlled
| resistance that adds up to 100+ lbs of force. Our high-
| intensity games and strength content, which differentiates us,
| requires this and the reason why we opted to build our own
| rower.
| bigfish24 wrote:
| As former competitive rower, can't see switching to anything but
| C2, but I like the idea to expand the market to more. My biggest
| concern is that it tends to take 4-6 weeks to get comfortable
| with posture and just sitting on the machine for extended periods
| (the unfortunate challenge of the machine engaging so many
| muscles). For novices, this valley of death is where so many give
| up. For example, coming back in the fall always started with
| awkwardly slow pieces to get the "feel" again. Figure out how to
| make this fun, and I am a believer you can spread the sport!
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Thanks for the support! Exactly, we aren't going after the hard
| core crowd. We feel rowing is amazing and we can get more butts
| of seats by making the experience more enjoyable.
| kvanlombeek wrote:
| Hi, I have a concept 2 at Home, I use it a lot to stay in shape
| for my other sports, mountain biking and windsurfing. I love the
| concept 2, but I love your product more.
|
| Can you use help in Europe? Maybe as a distributor or somebody
| that looks for events to sponsor? Would love to help.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Awesome to hear! We are pretty young so our focus is in North
| America at this time, but I'll keep you in mind for when we
| expand.
| CJefferson wrote:
| When I first looked at your website I wondered if you were a
| spin-off / subsidiary of Peloton. The whole design / feel feels
| identical to me. How close can the "look and feel" of two
| websites be nowadays before you get in trouble? (genuine
| question)
|
| Honestly, I would consider trying to get your own, more
| independent look+feel, even if you by coincidence ended up with
| your landing page looking like Peloton.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| As a young fitness company i'll take the comparison to Peloton
| as a compliment. I see what you mean and to your point branding
| and differentiating will become a higher priority when we can
| afford to do so.
| slingnow wrote:
| They're not comparing your company to Peloton -- they're
| comparing your website, which appears to be "influenced" by
| the Peloton site. The color scheme is pretty much identical.
| I don't think it's meant as a compliment as anyone could
| hijack some CSS from a competing website.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Makes sense. We do plan on revamping out website in the
| near future and will keep this in mind.
| SkyMarshal wrote:
| I'm a cyclist who likes to complement cycling's lower-body
| workout with upper-body workouts in the gym or the pool. But
| since COVID I've been looking for an alternative I can do
| independently, either outdoors or at home.
|
| Last spring I bought a barbell and some weights, and that helps.
| But I'd really like the same kind of interval workout for my
| upper-body as swimming provides.
|
| I started looking into rowing machines recently and came to same
| conclusion as you - works most of your muscles, and provides both
| interval and resistance workouts. Seems perfect for the Corona
| Era.
| sophacles wrote:
| Another place to look for upper body training that fits nice
| into HIIT (e.g. if you don't have the space for a rowing
| machine) is sledgehammer workouts. Not quite as good for
| cardio, but pretty intense and uses a lot of muscle groups.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Yep! Rowing is a great workout and we hope the trend picks up
| more in the mainstream as people realize that. Thanks for
| sharing.
| ADominic wrote:
| Cool product, congrats on the early success. My question: If the
| goal is HIIT or shorter workouts, why a rowing machine? Have you
| considered a design that incorporates pushing exercises as well
| like Concept2's Dyno - https://www.concept2.com/service/dyno ?
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| That's a really interesting looking machine - thanks for
| sharing. We chose the rower because it is one of the best full
| body workout machines and is something most people are somewhat
| familiar with thanks to the Olympics, CrossFit, Orange Theory,
| etc.
| throwawayrower wrote:
| How long are your typical workouts?
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| While there is a good variety of longer workouts and content,
| our focus was creating really solid engaging HIIT (high
| intensity interval training) content. So short and intense
| programming was key for us. As a result, there are races that
| are only 30 seconds, games that have 2, 5, and 10 minute
| options and strength programs that range from 10-20 minutes.
| Our experience page outlines the workout types and lengths if
| you'd like to dive in https://www.avironactive.com/experience/
| ggm wrote:
| I am a rower. Mainly doubles and quads. So, not sweep oar.
|
| Most rowing machines in gyms are set too "hard" water resistance
| does not mimic the setting most people use.
|
| There is a rotational aspect in two planes no rowing machine i
| use mimics: the rotation around the oar gate, an arc of about 120
| degrees, as you move forward and backwards, and the throttle
| twist of feathering the oars.
|
| These limit the utility of dry rowing to me.
|
| I've rowed in a static tank and its more "real" because your push
| is against water (you basically circulate water in a tank) and
| you get both feathering, and rowlock plane rotations
|
| (In real rowing, your arm sweeps out a circular arc of the radius
| from the rowlock to your hands)
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| You are 100% right, getting that on the water feel is very
| hard. For this reason and others, we put a fun and engaging
| experience + amazing workout > being as realistic as possible.
| dumbfoundded wrote:
| I always felt a large missing aspect was the realism as it
| relates to water. In particular, on a machine you neither feather
| nor feel variable resistance due to how vertical your blade is.
| There are a lot of specific details that the machine doesn't
| capture that I think make the actual experience on the water much
| more thoughtful than just pulling as hard and fast as you can.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| You are 100% right. We try our best to create an experience
| that is as similar to rowing on water as possible, but of
| course it won't be the same. But most people who purchase our
| rower aren't looking for a realistic experience, they want an
| amazing workout that's fun more than anything.
| dumbfoundded wrote:
| With variable electronic resistance and a rotating handle it
| should be possible, it should be possible in theory. It's
| definitely not something everyone is going for. I think you
| could improve form a lot just by helping people make sure
| their getting full extension and going through the motions in
| the correct order.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| That makes sense. Maybe at some point we can use the camera
| on the screen to analyze the users form. Thanks for the
| feedback.
| newbie578 wrote:
| I'm not part of the target demographic, but I will say this looks
| compelling to me. If Peloton can do it for cycling, I do not see
| the reason you cannot do it for rowing.
|
| Although a pain point kind of seems obvious, Peloton is
| successful because cycling by itself is "approachable". Anyone
| can hop on a bike and just start cycling, doesn't matter on your
| gender, weight, or conditioning.
|
| While rowing, eh.. You said it yourself, people avoid it in gyms
| like the plague. Don't get me wrong, I love rowing for the same
| reasons you do, rowing is the activity I do the most during the
| week.
|
| It's just that a lot of people do not like rowing, or/and are
| scared of it, and the biggest "problem", it is hard, way harder
| than anything else in the gym.
|
| So it seems that you are naturally blocked with a certain ceiling
| as to how much you can grow and where. While you are establishing
| a moat yourself to keep competitors away, the bigger question is
| how is the customer going to cross the "rowing moat" to even try
| your product?
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Great point. I feel things are changing. Thanks to CrossFit,
| Orange Theory, F45, etc. rowing is becoming more popular. 5
| years ago there weren't many rowing studio like there are
| spinning classes. Now you have chains like RowHouse with 300
| locations.
| exotree wrote:
| I think this is a great and fantastic idea; it's something I
| imagine a lot of Crossfit folks would be very willing to buy,
| especially in a pandemic. And it's a target market with money and
| motivation! I definitely prefer this over biking.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Exactly our target. The competitive folks who are lacking HIIT
| workout options at home.. like you said especially with the
| pandemic. Thanks!
| Multiplayer wrote:
| Hi - congrats on your amazing looking product and experience!
|
| I just purchased an Ergatta 2 weeks ago, waiting for delivery. In
| what circumstances would I want your product instead of the
| Ergatta?
|
| Background: I'm an avid peloton user for 3 years now, (also just
| picked up the tempo.fit for guided lifting) and am looking to mix
| in intense rowing sessions. The Ergatta looks compelling for
| gamified sessions with competition.
|
| Change my mind?
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| ha ha great question! Ergatta is a great product. They also
| offer some versions of competitive workouts. Where Aviron
| differs is our machines are built with dual magnetic and air
| resistance, this allows our machines to go to much higher
| resistance levels. For example, our strength programs will
| guide you through bicep curls and back rows where you are
| "lifting" 50+ Lbs. with each pull. A water rower on the other
| hand does not have variable resistance settings. Aviron also
| incorporates fully animated video games that include being
| chased by zombies and throw backs to old school favorites like
| pong and brick breaker. If you're interested we have a long-ish
| content video that goes into depth:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN2PVuK73Xg
| anonu wrote:
| I love the idea and I wish you the best of luck.
|
| I was on crew in college and "form" is always one of the most
| important things. I feel like a short intro on how to row - at
| least so as not to hurt yourself - is probably in order. I can't
| tell you how many times I've been to the gym where there is a
| concept2 and watch probably 9 out of 10 people just hack away at
| if its a chainsaw.
|
| NB: After reading this I watched a YouTube video and the ad was
| for a competitor product. That always weirds me out.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| I also 100% agree. We have 2 learn how to row videos on the
| rower and provide live feedback during workout programs to help
| users workout properly and correct their form. I'm sure there
| are other things we can do. Thanks for commenting!
| tempestn wrote:
| Agree 100%. I see exactly the same thing. It's a recipe for
| lower back injury if form isn't good, and you really do need a
| bit of instruction to do it properly.
| Bedon292 wrote:
| Totally get why you built one to meet your needs, but any
| thoughts on opening the app up? That is where the gap in the
| market is. I have a Water Rower, so I won't be buying your
| hardware (sorry), but if you open the app up I would be
| interested to try. I understand some of your workouts won't work
| without the resistance control, but there is a market out there
| for a good app. Since you already have one, might be a reasonable
| thing to look at. Although if all of the workouts need the
| resistance, than that could be a non started.
|
| Looks super cool though. And I wish you luck. If I were in the
| market for a rower, and not already have one mostly collecting
| dust, it would be something I would definitely look hard at.
| rohitpaulk wrote:
| There's a "Personal Membership" option on the website that
| seems to allow you to use your own rower.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Unfortunately, the membership only works with our rower at
| this time. But might be something we look into in the future.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Thanks for the feedback. I think this is something we will
| certainly explore in the future.
| AWildC182 wrote:
| Long time high level rower here. Why make a new rowing machine
| when Concept 2 is the calibration standard all athletes use and
| has a relatively open USB interface?
|
| For those not in the know, rowing machines all have different
| calibrations. C2 is the standard because they're very consistent
| across machines and are by far the best made allowing for many
| thousands of hours of use without failures. Most experienced
| rowers won't touch anything other than a C2.
|
| Edit: reading further, the 'moat' here appears to be electrically
| controlled 100lb high resistance settings. Be VERY careful with
| this. It's well established that most non-trained athletes will
| hurt themselves with this feature as it's a common trope on C2
| machines. The rowing posture can be rather dangerous for high
| weight if misused.
| gregsadetsky wrote:
| Not only does the C2 has an USB interface, but recent models
| have Bluetooth as well...! (I'm a happy C2 owner)
|
| I found an example project some time ago of a web site using
| Chrome's Bluetooth JavaScript API to recreate a rowing monitor
| and filed it away in case I would ever get to that side project
| :-)
|
| In case someone's interested to collab: I would build a 3D
| world through which you row. I know apps/games like these exist
| but an open version would be great (also the ones I found
| seemed to have so-so 3d graphics). And compatibility with VR
| headsets too..!
|
| Just to add to this: an Apple TV-compatible, 3D rowing app
| would be supremely interesting to consider...
|
| Building a web-based C2 monitor via Bluetooth:
| https://bandarra.me/2017/02/20/Fitness-Tracking-with-Web-Blu...
|
| Interacting with Bluetooth over JS: https://web.dev/bluetooth/
|
| The Bluetooth communications spec from C2!
| https://www.concept2.co.uk/files/pdf/us/monitors/PM5_Bluetoo...
| ghaff wrote:
| I'm pretty good about going out to take a walk/hike pretty
| much any day when the weather is remotely tolerable. But
| exercise equipment really does bore me. My C2 is 15+ years
| old and I don't use it a lot. But I'd upgrade the performance
| monitor in a heartbeat if there were a way to use it in
| conjunction with an Apple TV for a _non-subscription_
| immersive experience. (Something in the Hydrow vein.)
| gregsadetsky wrote:
| You'd still need the monitor (what Concept2 calls the
| "PM5") to send Bluetooth data to your Apple TV, but you
| could fold the arm so that the monitor wouldn't be in the
| way of your tv.
|
| I totally agree with you, rowing while even just watching
| TV is a lot more enjoyable. Having anything interactive
| (games/immersive) would be really great.
|
| Re: subscription, I agree that it'd be interesting to build
| something for free that everyone can use, and maybe try to
| sustain this with subscriptions for extra features
| (competitions, etc.)
|
| Finally, maybe the trick to building this out rapidly is to
| start with a web version. You'd connect your C2 to your
| computer via bluetooth, and then you could stream your
| computer to the Apple TV. A native Apple TV app would be
| better though, but it's more work. A web/three.js prototype
| is faster to put together (for me, at least -- a Unity
| developer might want to do this natively)
|
| Should I try to make a launch page and if I get 1000
| emails, go off and do it hah? :-)
|
| ---
|
| Actually, an iOS app that would run on iPads (the perfect-
| ish format for a C2 immersive monitor) is really
| interesting... Maybe iOS/AppleTV is the way to go after
| all...
| ghaff wrote:
| I have my C2 in a room with a big TV on the wall but,
| yeah, practically speaking something that interfaces with
| an iPad app probably makes more sense in general. Rigging
| up an iPad stand for a C2 would be pretty trivial--and
| may well already exist.
|
| If I were seriously looking at something like this as a
| business, I'd probably want to do a non-subscription
| offering that let you row down the Charles and other such
| rivers in an immersive and somewhat randomized
| environment but tried to get people to pay for real P2P
| interactions--which a lot would.
|
| Not an actual interest of mine to do but I think someone
| could retrofit a much better virtual experience on a C2
| than currently exists that people would pay good money
| for.
| Alex3917 wrote:
| > C2 is the standard because they're very consistent across
| machines and are by far the best made allowig for many
| thousands of hours of use without failures. Most experienced
| rowers won't touch anything other than a C2.
|
| Most colleges also have a few Gamuts around. I actually think
| it would be really fun to do quarter mile sprints against real
| people on a Gamut-type erg with these kind of screens.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Hey Alex, you are right, most experienced rowers won't touch
| anything other than a C2. But there are a ton of people who
| see the benefits of rowing but aren't interested in the C2
| for various reasons. We feel we have a great alternative for
| those people.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Great question and ADominic answered it well. The C2 is an
| amazing rower, I have one too. We don't target the hard core
| rower. And a huge part of our high intensity experience is the
| electronically controlled resistance that adds up to 100+ lbs
| of resistance. Our rower automatically adjusts the resistance
| depending on the workout and your goals.
| naewonawonga wrote:
| >> We don't target the hard core rower.
|
| Your marketing material suggests that one of the strengths of
| the platform is that it allows one to compete against
| professional athletes and Olympians.
|
| Which is it?
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| I've always wanted to see what it is like racing against
| some of the best athletes like Olympic boxers or MMA
| champions, but it doesn't mean I'm a hard core rower :)
| AWildC182 wrote:
| Why vary resistance? Most athletes learn to handle one
| resistance setting, the National Team standard being IIRC
| DF120, though anything between 100 and 120 is fine. Changing
| it tends to throw people for a loop.
| sleepydog wrote:
| I rowed in college and have countless hours on concept 2
| rowers. Outside of very specific drills I picked one weight
| setting and stuck with it. If I wanted to vary the
| difficulty I just rowed faster.
|
| I don't think varying the weight is good for your form and
| it could be dangerous for your back if your form is bad.
| After all, you can't vary the resistance of water in a real
| boat (I suppose you could pour gelatin in a lake).
| Intensity could be varied just by changing the stroke rate.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| good question. Aviron's resistance settings are used to
| enable high intensity interval training (HIIT) and workout
| variety for the average person/ fitness enthusiast. For
| example we have strength programs that guide you through
| bicep curls using the bar (with an animation that shows
| feet firmly planted on the ground and a low and steady
| motion, if you're moving too quickly Aviron will sense it
| and tell you to slow down your movement)
| phjesusthatguy3 wrote:
| I've seen numerous ads for Peleton; I have no idea what Concept
| 2 is, much less some ad on YC for yet another YC product I'm
| not going to buy.
|
| In addition, I've seen at least one New York Times article
| (each) wringing their hands about Biden riding a Peleton and
| wearing a Rolex, like it's surprising that US Presidents are
| inordinately rich.
|
| Anyway, I'm gonna get my fat ass back on the hydraulic rowing
| machine I have stored in my basement before I buy anything else
| from anyone.
| madaxe_again wrote:
| This was my query - it's almost impossible to replace the
| concept 2, as it's the de facto standard for splits and 2k
| times etc.
|
| Add to that, I recall us racing the ergs on a virtual lake on a
| tv as far back as 2000 or so - made doing 2ks way more
| interesting, as you could compete with the rest of the crew
| directly.
| monadic3 wrote:
| > Why make a new rowing machine when Concept 2 is the
| calibration standard all athletes use and has a relatively open
| USB interface?
|
| Locking people into the real revenue machine, the content, is
| critical.
|
| This is not intended to be an affordable alternative to the
| Concept 2, it's a different market entirely.
|
| If you're worried about interoperability and cost, they
| probably don't anticipate getting your business.
| ADominic wrote:
| also a former rower - I don't think we're the target market. If
| you've never touched an erg, it might not really matter whether
| you start on a C2 or not. And I'd guess controlling the
| hardware also gives them more control over the entire user
| experience + their own costs.
| AWildC182 wrote:
| I see this as an insanely dangerous game. IME most non-rowers
| won't touch an erg without significant
| instruction/encouragement as they're technique dependent. Any
| that do will quickly figure out from anyone who has rowed
| that C2 is the standard and everything else on the market is
| flaming garbage.
|
| Add to this that I could recreate this business using the C2
| API in a couple weeks and suddenly have a market of everyone
| who owns a C2 (all the people in this thread complaining that
| it doesn't support their machine) along with a literal
| potential customer list available through C2.
| chermanowicz wrote:
| This. As a former rower I'm biased, but also I have a C2
| that sits around unused, mainly because as I've gotten
| older, I care less about the competitive/fitness
| optimization aspect of working out and more about fun.
|
| Having tried several of the third party apps for C2,
| they've all suffered from 2 problems: pretty sub-par
| development/bugginess & wrong (or bad) content for the mass
| market. So much training oriented content and little on the
| fun/gamification side. I would pay $ for the right app, but
| not for a new rower. Ergatta is cool but again I wouldn't
| go out and buy one. When you think about the hundreds of
| thousands of C2s, it is a nice opportunity.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| You make a good point re: the C2 market. I mentioned up top
| that a huge part of our experience is the electronically
| controlled resistance that adds up to 100+ lbs of force.
| Our high-intensity games and strength content, which
| differentiates us, requires this and the reason why we
| opted to build our own rower. Thanks for the feedback.
| AWildC182 wrote:
| Edited my comment when I saw this. This is exceedingly
| dangerous. Ask any rower that's worked with people on C2
| machines. Everyone will instinctively throw the damper to
| setting 10, then throw their back due to bad posture.
| cycomanic wrote:
| I'm a former rower as well, I disagree that sitting on a
| rower is dangerous for getting back injury. Considering
| that pretty much every gym I know just puts them in some
| corner without anyone around who knows how to row, I
| believe this is not an issue.
|
| I know of no one who has injured themselves rowing (on a
| machine or outside).
| AWildC182 wrote:
| This is going to come down to experience but I'd say the
| majority of those I trained with had dealt with an injury
| at one point or another. Most women, particularly the
| lightweight class experienced broken ribs from strain
| across the core and most of the guys had lower back
| issues at one point or another.
|
| I'm not saying these things are death machines or
| anything, but the concept of adding essentially seated
| row to a rowing machine is fairly dangerous. Throwing an
| air damper up to 10 and ripping on it for a couple
| minutes will leave you quite sore the next morning but
| adding high weight can start pulling muscles or slipping
| discs.
| Alex3917 wrote:
| Most high-level rowers develop back problems, but these
| aren't primarily from the rowing machine, and your
| chances of developing the same kinds of problems while
| casually working out to meet your daily fitness goals are
| basically zero.
|
| E.g. almost all high-level swimmers have shoulder
| problems, but no one who just goes for a swim a few times
| a week is going to injure their shoulders. Almost all
| baseball players have ankle problems, but no one who
| plays baseball with friends after work is at risk of
| this.
|
| The reason rowers get back problems is basically a
| combination of overuse, the asymmetric load-bearing
| motion of sweep, and underdeveloped antagonistic muscles.
| Given the device and the target market, none of these
| issues are really at play here.
| cycomanic wrote:
| Interesting I rowed more than 13 years on national level
| up to u21 and never had any back problems until I hit a
| car cycling and fracturing my t6. I also don't know of
| any of my former friends who developed back pain. I
| actually always put this done to having very good core
| strength from rowing.
|
| In contrast or my cycling friends (which I took up after)
| have back problems, in particular the ones who started
| when young.
|
| Mind you this was more than 20 years ago so maybe the
| training regime has changed.
| AWildC182 wrote:
| That makes sense, the issues I saw were mostly at the
| post collegiate/open level. There were some issues in
| U23s but that was somewhat rare, at least compared to
| alcohol inflicted injuries :)
| Alex3917 wrote:
| > Everyone will instinctively throw the damper to setting
| 10, then throw their back due to bad posture.
|
| The people who do that normally only row for a few
| minutes at a time, and aren't really at any significant
| risk of injury. The only class of people who seem to
| consistently develop back problems from rowing machines
| are people who train on them for hours a day in high
| school and never lift weights.
|
| All the other back injuries in rowing are usually from
| either sweep rowing or from lifting.
| AWildC182 wrote:
| The standard rowing machines (sit on sliding seat, feet
| stationary) can actually be pretty abusive to the spine,
| worse than scull or sweep. I've seen inexperienced people
| actually hurt themselves. It's mostly an issue of shock
| at the catch and finish. Dynamic machines such as those
| made by C2, Row perfect, etc are a bit better in this
| regard and might be a better fit for this market.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Good point. We do our best to educate users with intro
| rowing videos that can be found on the touchscreen. Any
| any time the resistance is at a high level, we use little
| animations that show proper form and technique.
| AWildC182 wrote:
| This is a kind of thing that needs a lot of direct
| coaching to achieve...
|
| There are two major rowing postures you'll find people
| tend to use, hips rotated forward and hips back (spine
| slightly arched forward/convex). Neither is _really_
| wrong but for high resistance you need to be in the hips
| forward position (back slightly concave) as is the
| technique for weight lifting in the seated row. IME most
| people don 't actually comprehend which position they're
| in but using the wrong one can be catastrophic. You
| typically have to spend a few hours with someone ensuring
| they stay in the correct orientation before they really
| get it.
| FitFox wrote:
| I'm a little confused by your harsh comments AWildC182.
| Obviously you're a fan of the C2, but isn't the point of
| this rower to open up a fitness experience for both new
| and pro users alike that's different from what's already
| been tried and tested in the market? I get the whole
| "don't fix what ain't broke" mindset, but the whole point
| of innovation is to broaden horizons and our experience
| with fitness. Plus, I saw that they have instruction
| videos on how to row, and just like any product, they've
| recommended starting on the easy levels and working your
| way up. Anyone that tosses themselves into the most
| difficult setting on anything without warming up is
| asking for an injury, and this goes beyond rowing.
| AWildC182 wrote:
| Did you create this account for this purpose?
|
| I don't have any stake in C2, I just want to make clear
| that they are the standard that this will be measured
| against and that they are said standard for a reason.
| Anything advertised lesser should be viewed with
| suspicion, particularly for safety critical products.
|
| All that said, there are opportunities to improve, but
| those opportunities mainly exist in the software space.
| Focusing on hardware solely to create a moat isn't
| innovation, it's making landfill fodder.
|
| Finally, I have significant experience in this area, both
| as an athlete and a coach. Enough that I would unmask
| myself very quickly if I mentioned any details. I don't
| coach anymore and don't have any financial interest in
| that either. Teaching people to use these devices safely
| isn't an "instructional videos" and "warm up" ordeal.
| This will sound silly but people generally don't know
| what their body is doing without tight feedback loops and
| their perception breaks down under stress/over the
| duration of a workout. We frequently had people row in
| front of mirrors to get things to click (another business
| opportunity in the computer vision space). It's painfully
| obvious when you go anywhere that has mixed classically
| trained and self trained rowers who is who.
|
| I only raise questions because the move-fast-break-things
| approach is dangerous when you're breaking people. I
| couldn't care less about the VCs getting fleeced by this.
| dang wrote:
| > Did you create this account for this purpose?
|
| That breaks the HN guidelines, which ask you to (1)
| assume good faith, and (2) not to post insinuations of
| astroturfing or shilling but rather to email
| hn@ycombinator.com if you're worried about abuse. You can
| easily make your substantive points while sticking to
| these rules.
|
| Most new users are legit and it's the wrong cultural
| tradeoff for this place to allow established users to
| harass them. I certainly appreciate your wish to protect
| the integrity of the threads but it needs to be done
| while remaining an open, welcoming community. That last
| thing we want is to incentivize legit new users to leave
| just as soon as they arrive here, and we put up with a
| lot of downside in order not to punish the innocent.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
|
| Edit: it's also pretty nasty to say that VCs are "getting
| fleeced by this" in a launch thread where you're
| personally interacting with the founder. It's clear that
| you're an expert on rowing--that's fabulous! It's fine
| that you have a safety critique to make about this
| product--you've repeated it half a dozen times now. But
| it's not in keeping with the spirit of this site to
| accuse someone of outright corruption.
|
| If you had strong evidence of ill intent or something, it
| would maybe be different, but all you've got is a
| difference of opinion. Your opinion is an informed one,
| but not the only one, and please let's not do the
| internet slide-down where differences of opinion turn
| into accusations of malfeasance. That leads to the hell
| we're trying to avoid on this site. Users who are posting
| here owe the community better than that, no matter how
| well informed they are.
| ADominic wrote:
| I tend to agree, everyone knows how to ride a bike and
| learning to row without injuring yourself, even on a
| machine, takes time. I wonder what % of people with rowing
| machines at home, c2 or otherwise, are current/former
| rowers vs crossfit, regular gym goers, etc
| rloomba wrote:
| fwiw i'm actually not a former rower and I just purchased a
| C2 after some very light research. It's the industry
| standard, it's relatively cheap, and ALL of the apps are
| specifically designed or have have seamless integration with
| the C2.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| It is a great machine - I have one too :)
| rloomba wrote:
| sweet. If you develop an app that integrates with the C2,
| I will be your first paying user to try it.
| sebasmurphy wrote:
| C2 is really an engineering masterpiece. Simple, works forever,
| cheap replaceable parts, anyone can do the maintenance after
| watching a YouTube vid.
|
| Also super cool that you can upgrade the display/head unit w/o
| having to get a new rower.
|
| It's also significantly cheaper than this machine and has
| exceptionally high re-sale value.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| You are 100% right, the C2 is a tank. I have one too. But the
| C2 might not be right for everyone. I think we might be able
| to get more butts on rowers if we can make the experience
| more enjoyable for those who aren't motivated by the C2 and
| its current content.
| bob1029 wrote:
| The C2 is the best machine I've ever purchased. Ive got 3.6
| million lifetime meters on mine, and the most I've ever done
| to maintain it is wipe down the rail/rollers and put some 3-1
| oil on the chain.
| ingridgf wrote:
| Have you tried Hydrow? Is it similar?
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| I think Hydrow is an awesome product. They've built something
| great, but very different. They focus on longer aerobic
| (cardio) workouts led by instructors, while we focus on
| anaerobic workouts that are intense, short, have high
| resistance, and in the from of video games, live races, and
| strength programs.
| Lightbody wrote:
| I'm really glad to see this product. I'm also more tech than
| fitness, but I try to get in a quick row or treadmill run every
| day.
|
| In my case, I purchased a Concept 2 a couple years ago, not
| because I'm a rowing enthusiast but because "best rowing machine"
| seemed to point to it and it cost less than my treadmill =P
|
| I found a mount online for the Concept 2 that can attach my iPad
| and the last few weeks I've been using Apple Fitness+, but the
| select is _really_ limited. Also, like all Apple Fitness+
| programs, there is currently no feedback between what I 'm doing
| and what the program is asking/pushing me to do, which is
| disappointing.
|
| I probably won't purchase your product in the near future, given
| that I have a semi-working solution today. But I will encourage
| other folks to check it out if they are in the market for a
| rowing machine. And if you decide to go pursue a strictly
| software/services solution, I absolutely would run your programs
| on my iPad while I row on my Concept 2 :)
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Thanks! I agree that a C2 + Ipad setup might be all that's
| needed for a lot of people to stay motivated. For me, I needed
| more.
| Lightbody wrote:
| Oh, to be clear... I don't think my setup is ideal. I just
| don't think I could justify the additional purchase of your
| product _today_... maybe in a few years.
|
| But if you decided to change up your business model and offer
| the service such that I could run it in my iPad + C2, I am
| pretty sure you'd have me as a monthly subscriber. The
| programs you offer are much more inline with what I'm looking
| for.
|
| Congratulations on the success you've had so far. Good luck!
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Thank you!
| 1experience wrote:
| Coming from a Body-Building/callisthenics background, But doesn't
| doing only pulling exercises without doing any pushing create
| some form of imbalance in a physique?
| sacredcows wrote:
| ... then also do push exercises?
| 1experience wrote:
| I know this, but does the average customer without a fitness
| background?
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| We added a variety of guided off the rower programs that
| include exercises like push-ups. We even do things like use
| the frame to let the user perform incline and decline push-
| ups.
| tkgally wrote:
| I'm an older person who used to work out regularly in a gym
| before Covid. Since lockdown, I have spent a fair amount of money
| on exercise equipment for my home--dumbbells, elastic bands, and,
| especially, a cable crossover machine that cost a couple of
| thousand dollars. Even though I have no experience with rowing or
| rowing machines, your product is the sort of thing I might have
| considered buying last spring.
|
| Here's my initial, superficial reaction. The video on your site
| shows people using the machine not only for cardio but also for
| resistance training. But as near as I can tell, the resistance
| training is possible in only one direction: bicep curls but not
| tricep extensions, pulling for the back but not pushing for the
| chest. The shot of the man doing dips is not very convincing, as
| that move can be done perfectly well without your machine, and it
| can't be done while looking at the screen.
|
| I can imagine buying a cardio-only machine that doesn't try to
| provide a strength workout. But your video also seems to promote
| the muscle-building elements while going only halfway. For me, at
| least, that is a bit of a turnoff.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Thanks for the feedback! Looks like we have to make
| improvements in our marketing.
|
| There are a variety of exercises that utilize the rower and are
| guided by instructions on the screen. Some involve the rower
| like bicep curls and tricep extensions (requires standing up
| and bending forward) and some don't like push-ups and dips.
|
| We decided to incorporate some exercises outside of rowing
| because customers requested it. We are happy we did because the
| feedback has been great.
| multjoy wrote:
| Peloton sued GPLama for simply using the word 'Peloton'. Good
| luck describing yourself as them!
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| We don't typically describe ourselves as the Peloton for
| rowing. But we did so here to make it easy for everyone to
| understand what we built. We appreciate your concern :)
| hagibborim wrote:
| I have a Concept 2 -- how can I incorportate your product into my
| workout?
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| A huge part of our experience is the electronically controlled
| resistance that adds up to 100+ lbs of resistance. Our high-
| intensity games and strength content, which differentiates us,
| requires this and the reason why we opted to build our own
| rower.
| candiddevmike wrote:
| Also concept2 owner. I think it's a miss not having some
| offering for existing rowers--these are not cheap devices,
| most people love their current one, and concept2's build
| quality has created a huge moat for them.
|
| Better to compete on software/integration instead of hardware
| as it makes your offering a niche player in an already niche
| market.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Good point. I think creating a solution that ties into
| existing rowers like the C2 isn't out of the question in
| the future.
| ebcase wrote:
| I'd be interested in this. I picked up a C2 last year,
| and have no need (or desire) to replace it. But
| supplementing it with something I can use on an iPad
| would be great.
| freerobby wrote:
| Check out Asensei for live coaching, or Kinomap for
| outdoor rows. Both connect to the PM5 on the C2.
| malandrew wrote:
| I'm disappointed dynamic rowers don't get more attention and
| love. I own a RowPerfect 3 and it is far superior in terms of
| motion and workout compared to any static rower. I've never
| really seen anyone learn good form that has either not been on
| the water or used a dynamic rower. Those who only have experience
| with static rowers really only learn to row poorly and then
| reinforce that poor form through repetition.
| doomslice wrote:
| Given that you're competing with Peloton (or at least in the same
| general market), how do you plan to respond to the rumored
| Peloton Rower? https://www.pelobuddy.com/peloton-rower
|
| It's going to be hard to position yourself as the Peloton for
| Rowing when Peloton actually has a Peloton for Rowing.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| We usually try not to position ourselves as the Peloton for
| rowing but it made sense here for people to quickly understand
| what we do.
|
| I think Peloton adding a rower is a great thing, it is going to
| bring more awareness to the benefits of rowing. We
| differentiate ourselves from Peloton through out content. While
| they are best in class at instructor led workouts, we aim to be
| best in class at high intensity and competitive video games,
| races, and strength programs. There is certainly going to be
| some overlap.
| offtop5 wrote:
| Congratulations.
|
| While it's out of my budget , this looks like a great high margin
| business to be in .
|
| Is their any fear of getting undercut in this space
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Great question. Margins are strong so we do have wiggle room.
| But there will always be lower cost alternatives and we plan on
| being best in class for high intensity and competitive
| workouts. As long as our prices are in line with similar
| companies and we continue to create user experiences, I feel we
| should be in a good spot.
| afterwalk wrote:
| This looks cool but I'd be in the market for a software solution
| that gave me "games, races, and programs" with a Concept 2 +
| iPad. If anyone knows of such a product please let me know.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Check out Asensei for live coaching, or Kinomap for outdoor
| rows :)
| subpixel wrote:
| Rowing is coming to Zwift, and you can already connect and row
| bike routes.
| [deleted]
| roemance wrote:
| How is this software different than Ergatta
| (https://ergatta.com/)? Do you offer the ability to connect the
| tablet to another device like a Concept2 rower?
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Ergatta is a great alternative but different. From a hardware
| standpoint they don't have variable resistance. Our
| electronically controlled resistance adds up to 100+ lbs of
| force. Our high-intensity content, which differentiates us,
| requires this and the reason why we opted to build our own
| rower. When it comes to content, Ergatta has gamified workouts,
| whereas we have actual video games like Brick Breaker, races
| against Olympic athletes, guided strength programs that
| automatically adjust the resistance and let you use the rower
| for more than just rowing; like bicep curls and dips.
| shmatt wrote:
| Apple is currently the only company in the fitness world that can
| afford to force hardware and software coupling. You are not
| Apple.
|
| Peloton, which you compare yourself to, allows me to use my Life
| Fitness bike with their platform, and they even charge me about
| 70% less than they charge their own bike buyers.
|
| Hopefully this will soon sink in, there is a huge market of
| people who already invested thousands in their workout gear, and
| all they need is your platform. Plus its always interesting to
| hear how usable the hardware is, if I stop paying or if your
| platform goes offline. Every company handles this a bit
| differently
| ADominic wrote:
| Was this always the case for Peloton though? They could expand
| to allow their platform to work on other equipment later but
| there might be enough early adopters to support hardware sales
| to start. Also, bikes are far more common first purchases for
| home exercise equipment so there are probably many more bikes
| collecting dust at home than rowing machines
| shmatt wrote:
| It's the other way around. While figuring out how to profit
| on the hardware, selling software is a net profit with 0
| downside. And lots of people on this thread seem to point to
| a single manufacturer that is in every rowers house,
| apparently
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| You make some good points. A huge part of our experience is the
| electronically controlled resistance that adds up to 100+ lbs
| of force. Our high-intensity games and strength content, which
| differentiates us, requires this and the reason why we opted to
| build our own rower instead of just an app or working with any
| rower.
| shmatt wrote:
| Does this mean your hardware is bricked if I stop paying the
| monthly fee? Looking at the bike market again, most bikes
| have a "free ride" state for non payers that shows you live
| stats. And internal browsers that let you see a different
| companies videos
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| You can still use the rower like a typical rower without a
| membership. More details here :)
| https://www.avironactive.com/membership/
| SamBam wrote:
| And yet so many rowers are saying that the electronically-
| controlled resistance doesn't really make sense in a rower,
| which should not be changing the resistance all the time.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| I think it can be argued both ways :)
| samkater wrote:
| We have a Water Rower. They have a Bluetooth module you can
| install to get data to other devices (phone, etc).
|
| The programs Aviron offers look cool, but I would never trade out
| a working rower for a new one just for the workout programs.
| Families like mine are probably part your target market, but I
| suspect our current rower will last 10+ years. If you could
| connect to existing rowing machines and have the programs display
| on a laptop or tablet, we would definitely give it a serious
| look!
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Water Rower is fantastic - really pretty. Thanks for the
| feedback. We completely understand :)
| mrDmrTmrJ wrote:
| Yeah, if you can mount to a water rower I'd love to buy your
| device & subscription.
| alangibson wrote:
| This looks like a pretty mature product. Why did you choose to go
| through YC?
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| I think the team has done an amazing job at making it look like
| we are pretty mature. I can count everyone on two hands.
| alangibson wrote:
| I really feel your pain on learning the manufacturing
| landscape, especially the point about manufacturers not being
| motivated by money. I'm about to launch something much less
| complicated than yours and I don't know how many times I've
| yelled 'do these people not like money?' after hanging up the
| phone.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Yea. No joke. I literally offered $25K on top to push our
| delivery up 4 weeks (beats flying it all over). They felt
| so disrespected I was ashamed.
| alangibson wrote:
| I'm only dealing with European manufacturers, but I think
| it's the same everywhere. They're more worried about the
| downside of taking on a bad customer than picking up a
| little extra business.
| foreigner wrote:
| Are you aware "aviron" means "airplane" in Hebrew?
| doerig wrote:
| it also means "rowing" in french (the intended translation I
| assume)
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Exactly :) We are a Canadian company.
| [deleted]
| boringg wrote:
| Sounds cool.
|
| Can I sum it up as Aviron is the peloton of the community and
| Hydrow is the Zwift? The difference being Zwift caters to people
| who are already vested and more hardcore in some ways where as
| peloton is the general public who want to try and get a quick
| good workout?
|
| Also - if you are following the peloton model - how are you going
| to build out the celebrity following for your athletes? I think
| that is one of the key components of why people buy in.
|
| Product pricing - are you going lower cost than peloton as you
| could be considered a substitute product.
|
| Good luck on the journey!
| boringg wrote:
| Also please don't follow pelotons somewhat annoying business
| model and force people to shell out a lot for the hardware
| product and continue to force them on high monthlies.
|
| Am interested in your product though - quick high intensity
| workout.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| I would reverse the two. Hydrow is closer to peloton. They both
| have instructor led classes. Our content is focused around
| shorter, intense workouts, in the form of video games, live
| races, and strength programs. Neither Hydrow or Aviron cater to
| the avid rower.
|
| Our team is much smaller than you think and so celebrity
| following isn't on the roadmap yet - but hopefully one day!
|
| We are slightly less expensive than Peloton now, but I wouldn't
| say we are their substitute. They are best in class when it
| comes to live instructors. We want to be best in class when it
| comes to high intensity video games, races, and other similar
| content.
| ALittleLight wrote:
| Awesome and inspiring story.
|
| I personally can't see paying a subscription for an exercise
| machine though. Why can't I just buy something and own it without
| needing to provide recurring monthly revenue to the company who
| sold me the thing? Rowing is boring, but I solved that for myself
| with a pair of headphones and a podcast. I have a hard time
| imagining rowing based games being as interesting (though I did
| like the concept of your pros versus Joe's).
|
| All said, obviously people do pay subscriptions for stuff like
| this so best of luck to you and congratulations on your success!
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Thank you! Reoccurring revenue is just the name of the game now
| :)
| Closi wrote:
| I subscribe to peloton but can't see myself subscribing to
| this.
|
| I subscribe to peloton because I get new content every single
| day, live rides and even things like T-shirt's shipped to me
| when I hit milestones. This feels like a membership but
| without any particular level of membership benefits.
|
| I'm sure you will find a market though and hope you are
| hugely successful!
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| I can understand that. When Peloton first came out they
| were releasing content as often as we are now. Over time
| I'm sure we will get better. Thank you!
| Rooster61 wrote:
| C2 owner here, and an ADHD sufferer as well. I've always utterly
| hated working out throughout my life as sitting on a machine or
| out running without a goal other than "work out to maintain
| health" bores me out of my mind. I keep it bearable right now by
| catching up on TV (the little bit of time I have to actually
| watch anything these days), but gamification I think would get me
| even more into it.
|
| I'd probably be interested in this product if it were able to be
| tied into my machine. That said, I don't think I'd actually be
| interested in the part that seems to be your impetus to make your
| own hardware platform (the variable resistance/strength
| training).
|
| I primarily use my machine for cardio, and to keep weight off,
| and to that end I do indeed follow an interval training approach.
| However, I don't play with the resistance. I simply increase my
| strokes per minute for certain intervals throughout the workout.
| I think its a bit too much of a sacrifice to throw out the
| quality and results of a proven platform just to implement that
| one set of functionality (which I personally would probably not
| even use).
|
| I'd rather see the capital raised put into making the software
| and user experience the best it possibly could be rather than
| being split between the software and an actual rowing machine.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Thanks for the feedback and good points. The good thing is the
| hardware is done and we're focused exclusively on the content.
| We try to pump out 10-20 new workout options every 4-6 weeks.
| thehappypm wrote:
| I struggle with this too. A bit of a sidebar but hiking is by
| far my favorite form of cardio. Constant stimulation, changing
| scenery.
| andylynch wrote:
| Have you tried connected it to something like Kinomap?
| freerobby wrote:
| Strong +1 to every part of this... except that I don't even
| have ADHD and still find exercise mind-numbingly boring. :)
|
| Like you, Andy, and many others, I am not a "rower" but I do
| use a rower at home to stay in shape with minimal time spent
| doing so.
|
| I also use a C2 and am hesitant to move off of it. I use a few
| connected rowing apps, mostly Asensei and Kinomap. They don't
| deliver a Peloton level of experience but they are good enough
| to stay motivated and there is no vendor lock-in on the
| hardware side, which is important to me as this is a nascent
| industry and I don't believe that all entrants will be winners.
|
| While I have no interest whatsoever in buying another hardware
| platform, I would gladly pay $40/mo for an amazing software
| platform for the C2.
| wmitty wrote:
| I made a (much less fancy) rowing machine program in 1984 (for
| the original Concept II).
|
| It was written in 6502 assembly language for the Apple II.
|
| It had a really nice display:
|
| - 2 boats, with oars moving timed to your pulls - scrolling
| scenery - stroke power graphs - odometers that rolled over like
| mechanical odometers.
|
| I had a piece of tinfoil taped to the wheel on the concept II.
| There was an aluminum box divided in two with a flashlight bulb
| on one side and a photocell on the other. When the tinfoil passed
| under the alumium box the photocell resistance would change,
| which would be available to the program via a wirewrapped
| expansion board (that also gave the Apple II 60hz interrupts - a
| native Apple II has no timer or interrupt controller). I later
| saw a Cateye magnetic bicyle wheel sensor and felt like such an
| idiot.
|
| It also had an integrated breakout game that was controlled by
| the difference in power between the two rowers. Because of how
| one wrote games in that day (often directly using screen memory
| as data), if the ball ever escaped the brickout playfield it
| would start colliding with (and corrupting) other things on the
| screen, and if it ever left the screen, with random bits of
| executable code.
|
| When you got a high score on a 20 min row, I had an army surplus
| air raid siren that would spin up. The idea was that after you
| completely killed youself on the erg, you would then have to run
| like crazy to avoid getting deafened by an air raid siren in a
| small room (thankfully this last part never worked well). A very
| high school idea.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| That is the most impressive thing I've heard all day. I wish
| the air raid siren worked haha.
| mlkmt wrote:
| I would really like to see photos/videos of this
| justanother wrote:
| Nice work! I work at [large Utah-based behemoth that sells a full
| range of connected exercise equipment] and enjoy their
| interactive rower models. It's always great to see people bring
| new stuff to market that makes rowing fun, because I've always
| felt that rowing is one of the best exercises. And since
| 'connected fitness' is growing so exponentially at the moment,
| it's probably okay for me to wish you good luck, because I think
| your product is genuinely exciting.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| I can guess which company you work for :) I'm happy to hear our
| product in genuinely exciting, thank you!!!
| FanaHOVA wrote:
| These connected fitness products will need cross-play soon if
| more start coming out :)
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| That would be pretty sweet :)
| bwb wrote:
| I've always heard you can hurt yourself badly if your form isn't
| perfect, esp your back. True? If so, how do you help people
| maintain good form and not screw up their back?
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Like with any workout injuries are always a possibility. We do
| our best to mitigate this with instructional videos for novice
| users and automated feedback (for example when the user is
| going too fast). That being said, stationary rowing machines,
| found in gyms or homes are not generally associated with a high
| risk for injuries.
| bwb wrote:
| good to know, i always heard the other bit...
| remir wrote:
| Question 1: would you be able to use this in a condo without
| annoying other co-owners? The specs page says the noise level is
| at 60db. Is this at HIIT level of effort?
|
| Question 2: assuming one buys this and cancel their subscription
| down the line (subscription fatigue), is the software on the unit
| useless without it or is there still some basic funcitonnality?
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Great questions! 1: 60db is with moderate rowing. With hard
| rowing, it doesn't get much louder compared with say the
| Concept2 thanks to the nylon belt and smaller fan blades. 2:
| Still some basic functionality including a profile with workout
| history and controlling resistance. More details here -
| https://www.avironactive.com/membership/
| EamonnMR wrote:
| Rowing is my favorite form of excercise, so this is an exciting
| product. I'm always telling myself I'll get a Concept2 when I can
| afford one (right now I have a cobbled together combination of
| two discount machines.) Can you compare your product to C2's
| offering? Exciting to see innovation in the rowing space-it feels
| pretty monopolized right now.
| FullNameAndy wrote:
| Great question. Like many people in the thread have already
| mentioned the C2 is a great, solid product. Where we feel we
| are different is the focus on high intensity interval training
| (HIIT)- our content (fully animated video games, races against
| olympians or the Aviron community and guided strength programs)
| works along with the resistance of the machine to provide a
| solid option for at home HIIT. If you're looking for visuals,
| competition, and variety Aviron can be a good fit.
| bagacrap wrote:
| On Jason Osborne, Olympic rower and recreational cyclist:
|
| """ "I can do 480 watts for six minutes [on a standard 2km rowing
| ergometer test]. In cycling I can hold like 470-480 watts for 20
| minutes. So yeah, that's a big gap, obviously," he said when
| referring to the differences between power measurement compared
| between rowing and cycling. One of the factors in the difference
| between power output is that while cycling requires consistent
| power throughout the entire duration, the recovery phase of the
| rowing stroke generates no power, effectively meaning that for a
| third to a half of the testing duration, zero power is produced.
| """
|
| This falsifies your claim that rowing burns more calories per
| minute than cycling.
| reitzensteinm wrote:
| Does it?
|
| Rowing could simply be less efficient at turning the calories
| you're burning into the power output being measured.
| sacredcows wrote:
| How does it falsify that claim? 480 watts is 480 watts. That's
| an equivalent unit to calories per minute. In rowing, the
| recovery phase outputs no power but requires some power input.
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