[HN Gopher] How hard should I push myself?
___________________________________________________________________
How hard should I push myself?
Author : dshipper
Score : 110 points
Date : 2021-01-22 18:16 UTC (4 hours ago)
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| retzkek wrote:
| > just knowing you have the option to reduce stress is enough to
| make something less stressful
|
| I believe this is a huge source of stress today, with 24-hour
| news and addictive social media all constantly screaming "the sky
| is falling" and there's absolutely _nothing_ you can do about any
| of it. As an experiment, for every bit of news and every tweet
| you read, ask yourself "is this actionable?"
|
| The best thing you can do for your personal mental and physical
| well-being is stop paying attention. If you can find a source of
| local, actionable news that actually affects you, great (good
| luck). Otherwise just focus on the immediate world around you -
| family, friends, job, community - and let the larger world do
| what it's going to do anyways.
| JMTQp8lwXL wrote:
| Many areas have a local NPR-type news source regarding
| decisions and policy disputes of city councils and mayors. You
| can reasonably organize efforts to influence these types of
| decisions.
| DenverCode wrote:
| > The best thing you can do for your personal mental and
| physical well-being is stop paying attention.
|
| Last month, I deleted all of my social media accounts outside
| of LinkedIn, Tildes, and Hacker News. Additionally, I blocked
| news sites in my browser and subscribed to both the Economist
| for current events and the Athletic for my sports addiction.
|
| At first, it was strange- there was a constant feeling that I
| was missing out on things happening that all my friends and
| family were in on. I realized, after a while, that I now spend
| more time improving myself personally rather than worrying
| about what others are doing.
|
| I wouldn't say I am less distracted.. but it's a different kind
| of distraction. Rather than finding myself aimlessly browsing a
| never-ending stream of posts on Reddit, I am now trying to
| answer questions on Stackoverflow. Rather than reading through
| posts of my peers landing internships and stressing myself out,
| I spend time on my resume and learning Go.
|
| Also, people text and call me now rather than shooting me a
| message on social media which is honestly really nice. Even
| more so with the current COVID climate.
|
| The most important part though is that I feel as if I have
| spent more meaningful time with my significant other.
|
| Another change is that I separated my devices.
|
| My laptop ONLY has stuff for school and programming on it. Our
| iPad has the entertainment in books, games, etc (radio.garden
| has been fun exploring). My phone has all the default Apple
| programs only. Since doing so, I can't count the number of
| times I picked up my phone subconsciously, swiped through it
| realizing there isn't anything on there, then asking myself why
| I even picked it up to begin with.
|
| Sorry for the rant.. it's just been a strange adjustment that
| is showing benefits personally.
| borroka wrote:
| To me, Radio Garden has been the app delight of 2020. I found
| it tremendously fascinating to listen to people living in
| faraway countries talking on radio, both the hosts and the
| callers. Often, normal, but nonetheless less interesting,
| people: the barber in Argentina describing how he started his
| business 50 years ago; the pissed-off lady who's calling to
| complain about the traffic in Lisbon. I found it refreshing;
| I recognized that I was (and I am) still quite fed up with
| the Tim Ferriss, Weinsten or Joe Rogan's wildly accomplished
| or popular-on-Twitter guests, and with the dramatizations
| that after 5 podcast episodes leave you as clueless as you
| were 5 episodes before.
| jschveibinz wrote:
| I have been thinking about this a lot lately. Like anything,
| balance is the key. I am beginning to realize that it's really
| important to plan for balance and pushing myself at the same
| time. If I plan to have a decent baseline of time for basic
| activities (this is different for everyone) then I can push hard
| on some things over short periods of time and not burn out. I
| know that incremental achievement will still boost my confidence
| and life satisfaction. I used to just push until I burned out:
| it's not a good approach.
| kulig wrote:
| Do wild animals "push" themselves? No. So theres your answer.
|
| Humans are crazy.
| GuB-42 wrote:
| They do. Especially juveniles.
|
| Human are special (but not unique) in that they keep juvenile
| features well into adulthood. A phenomenon called neoteny.
| Playfulness is part of it, and what is playfulness if it isn't
| "pushing yourself", both are an "unnecessary" expendure of
| energy.
|
| Also, animals do all sorts of crazy stuff to attract mates.
|
| So yes, humans may be crazy, but they are not the only crazy
| species on earth. And even if it isn't, that craziness made us
| quite successful.
| _Microft wrote:
| Something being natural doesn't make it good by itself. This
| fallacy is known as the ,,appeal to nature":
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature
|
| Beside that: how would we know that wild animals aren't
| actually pushing themselves in some way?
| ndiscussion wrote:
| That's not a fair representation in my opinion. Appeal to
| nature is saying cyanide is healthy because it's natural.
|
| But when it's our own evolutionary biology, I think appeal to
| nature makes perfect sense. It's what we were born to do,
| literally. Antidepressants and stimulant drugs allow us to
| bypass this evolution, but at some cost.
| gscho wrote:
| This is a strange way to look at it. Do you live your life as a
| wild animal? There are many things wild animals DO do that
| would be insane to do as a human.
| clipradiowallet wrote:
| I would argue that animals _do_ "push" themselves, but only in
| certain areas. Mate-selection competition among mammals being
| the first area that comes to mind, see [1]. There is no set
| goal of "enough" in that category(unlike, say, gathering N nuts
| to last through winter).
|
| [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_selection_in_mammals
| com2kid wrote:
| > Do wild animals "push" themselves? No. So theres your answer.
|
| Have you ever watched squirrels go after food in a feeder? Lots
| of YT videos of people setting up insane obstacle courses that
| squirrels learn to run through.
|
| Some breeds of dogs are infamous for how hard they work,
| collies being one.
|
| Heck some species, such as salmon, rely on do or die as the
| very key of their survival.
| ndiscussion wrote:
| But we already have big macs for $2, that's the difference.
| When squirrels encounter a big fat feeder with no obstacles,
| they take it easy.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| Maintaining a persistent supply of $2s for big macs is a
| different story, though. Dollars don't grow on trees, and
| neither do houses.
| nix23 wrote:
| Because in nature there is no push, just survive or die.
| ativzzz wrote:
| They absolutely do. The animals that don't push themselves are
| the ones that get eaten or end up without a mate and so fail
| their biological imperative.
| RGamma wrote:
| Looking at my 2 T. hermanni tortoises I can really see their
| species having pushed themselves for the past 100 million
| years.
|
| Sarcasm aside, what they're really doing when the sun is out
| in summer: Lying in the sunlight, eating, walking, eating,
| hiding under a bush, hiding under piece of wood, bathing, etc
| all the way until they're 80. Quite peaceful animals.
|
| What matters not that you constantly push yourself... it's
| well-being and that you are in personal equilibrium. Anything
| else is probably gonna end in a crash some time.
| mamon wrote:
| >> Sarcasm aside, what they're really doing when the sun is
| out in summer: Lying in the sunlight, eating, walking,
| eating, hiding under a bush, hiding under piece of wood,
| bathing, etc all the way until they're 80. Quite peaceful
| animals
|
| Are you still talking about your pet turtles here? because
| that lifestyle is not natural for them. If they tried too
| much lying in the sunlight in the wild they would quickly
| get eaten by some predator.
| RGamma wrote:
| I was simplifying somewhat. They do like to sunbath
| especially in the morning though and from what I've read
| in their natural habitat in Greece as well (to adult
| tortoises there's few natural predators there, but
| younglings tend to stay hidden in their first few years).
|
| My point was more that wild animals do not push
| themselves in the same way we humans do. There's
| fulfilling basic needs and stress from disease or
| predators, but no voluntary exercise beyond what's
| necessary for finding food/drink or obsession for self-
| improvement.
|
| I'd be curious if one could teach some smarter animals
| that they're able to self-improve but that probably
| requires higher-order thinking...
| bradlys wrote:
| As someone who has pushed themselves far beyond what I thought
| was possible for a person not experiencing literal life/death
| situations - I'd highly recommend against pushing yourself far.
|
| > It makes you more susceptible to heart disease, it makes it
| harder to recover from illnesses, it can affect your sleep, and
| it can even affect your working memory.
|
| If you start experiencing chronic insomnia from chronic stress
| where you're getting 30 minutes to 2 hours of sleep everyday for
| weeks... Know that you're not pushing yourself - you're fucking
| yourself over. You won't remember anything. A couple days will
| feel like a week. Things that happened a few days ago feel
| ancient. You'll be living the life of Sisyphus because you will
| have to redo things because you will inevitably have forgotten
| what you did.
|
| If you get sick (and you will get sick), you will take months to
| recover from a simple cold. Your body will eventually shut you
| down and put you in bed from the stress and simple cold you got.
| The stress will compound because you are not able to do your
| basic duties due to the sickness and now you're even more
| stressed. Stress begets stress - in my experience. It's easy to
| find your stress levels on a runaway train.
|
| So, now, ask yourself - is it worth it? Is it worth being unable
| to stay healthy, unable to sleep, unable to even remember
| anything, and constantly being miserable as fuck just to think
| you're gonna turn Super Saiyan or some crazy shit if you just
| push yourself further? (Pro-tip: You won't ever have some anime
| level breakthrough - those don't happen in real life. That's why
| it's anime!)
|
| You likely won't. I haven't. I don't think I've had a single
| breakthrough or meaningful change in my life that came from
| putting myself through incredibly stressful times. So, IMO, avoid
| highly stressful situations. They don't really prepare you for
| anything - they just deal out trauma and set you back.
|
| Some stress can be nice - but if you're like me - your daily
| stress levels are way higher than most people's. So, your idea of
| what a "normal" amount of stress is very likely highly distorted.
| You're probably living - like I am - just one bad day from
| getting riddled with sickness, insomnia, and amnesia but you
| don't even realize it because you've thought for so long that
| this is "normal" or "healthy" or what you should be doing to
| break through. After all - life is a game... More stress means
| more XP, right? More XP means higher levels. Higher levels means
| I can do more. Doing more means more $$$. More $$$ means that
| house in Palo Alto finally. That house in Palo Alto means someone
| will finally notice me. Someone finally noticing me means I'll
| have happiness. Something like that I guess - for the typical HN
| crowd.
| emsal wrote:
| For what it's worth, Dr. Robert Sapolsky, who wrote one of the
| books that this article draws on, has a fascinating set of
| lectures, free online, from his Human Behavioral Biology course
| at Stanford[1].
|
| I personally haven't listened to it in very great detail as if I
| were taking the course, but I often skip around to listen to the
| dissections of various aspects of human behavior.
|
| [1]: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLD7E21BF91F3F9683
| RGamma wrote:
| Once I think about personal progress in a performative way I doom
| myself to failure because I get seriously stressed out about it
| (there's likely a significant genetic component in this, my
| stress-resistance is really low for some reason). I could not
| exist like that guy in the article, props to him.
|
| Personally I try to stay in balance, that way things come more
| naturally, and there isn't this sword of Damokles hanging over
| every day I "don't perform". Fostering natural curiosity and
| intrinsic motivation seems like a worthwhile goal to me (I'm not
| much of a people person). Then even if you can't combine this
| with work there'll still be something to look forward to
| afterward.
|
| Oh and never forget to live life a little too ;)
| artificialLimbs wrote:
| Whatever is the opposite of what is habitual for you.
|
| If you push yourself hard often, relaxing and taking more time
| off will be a challenge for you and reveal new aspects of
| yourself with which you were not previously aware.
|
| If you half ass everything, taking on as much responbility as
| possible and working as hard as possible will be a challenge for
| you and reveal new aspects of yourself with which you were not
| previously aware.
| koolk3ychain wrote:
| Pushing myself during covid has been a somewhat frivolous and
| failed effort. Sure, I managed to stand up a handful of small
| "test" side projects, two of which are now small businesses -
| however I actually struggled more to immediately apply myself at
| my day job while working remote.
|
| I know the immediate comments will be - focus on your job not
| side projects, this is obviously why you struggled to buckle down
| on "actual work". However, I would say that my day to day work
| gives me more stress and "pushing myself" just lead to further
| meetings and stress being more involved with other people's
| problems.
|
| Like a few other commenters here I received an ADHD diagnosis in
| my early twenties - for this reason college was a significant
| challenge. My deepest moments of "pushing myself" have come from
| trying to escape situations or life circumstances that make me
| deeply unhappy. Supposedly, ADHD sufferers commonly focus anxiety
| like this - however, this is certainly my vice. Being able to
| gauge risk and make hard decisions with this anxiety is great -
| but it comes at a huge personal and social cost.
| i_haz_rabies wrote:
| Few things are more fun than running up a steep hill in the cold
| rain. Unfortunately, pushing your body too hard will have
| diminishing and then receding returns.
| ilaksh wrote:
| I think its much more common that other people are pushing you,
| than you are pushing yourself. So I think there are a lot of
| people who feel social pressure to put in extra hours at work and
| give in to that just to be safe. Because jobs are important.
| sentientslug wrote:
| Does anyone have the source for the rat stress study? I'd love to
| read it.
| [deleted]
| rvn1045 wrote:
| People aren't pushing themselves anywhere close to their limits.
| If you look at extreme athletes who run 100+ miles or swim for
| hours or lift weights multiple times a day without taking breaks
| it's evident that human limits are far higher than what the
| average person is willing to endure. For the average person they
| should probably be pushing themselves harder.
| Akcium wrote:
| It's a really important question.
|
| On the one hand, most people say that you shouldn't push yourself
| hard. You should take a rest. Take your time.
|
| Pushing hard may lead to burnout/big
| stress/depression/anxiety/whatever.
|
| On the other hand:
|
| 1. I see that well-known people who work hard has some results.
| Literally, a minute ago I saw a tweet from a guy is very well
| known, and dedicated his life for one thing. And he's working
| really hard.
|
| 2. For me, it depends. If I don't push myself, if I'm not being
| strict with myself, if I'm not angry I usually don't get any
| result. However, after continuous hard-work I eventually got
| burned out.
|
| So it's really hard to keep balance
| tmotwu wrote:
| I would say avoid blanket advice like "don't push yourself hard
| you'll burn out". Burnout is a real thing but it's ridiculously
| overblown. I get burned out often but it usually only lasts a
| few days. Successful people mitigate this by taking vacation
| days, not by deciding to coast through the year.
|
| Some people are healthier, happier and thrive through the
| feeling of productivity - whether it be work, a hobby, or a
| side project. I'd say depression is more common with people who
| don't have anything to do.
| Akcium wrote:
| Well yes, probably you're right.
|
| I mean, I truly believe that each person is unique.
|
| For some persons it's okay to live a measured, calm life
|
| But for others it might be okay pushing. E.g., in the
| evenings some people go home & drink bear & relax. Others
| lift weights and "suffer". Some work 24x7 while being happy.
|
| "Burnout is a real thing but it's ridiculously overblown" - I
| like that :) Let's keep pushing than!
| mannykannot wrote:
| Having known someone who committed suicide as his startup
| failed, I would suggest avoiding blanket claims about
| burnout.
| tmotwu wrote:
| Sorry about your friend, I knew someone who went through
| something similar and it's awful. To rephrase, mental
| illnesses are very real and horrible. Seek the right
| resources when you encounter such issues.
|
| I just want people to avoid reading articles on burnout
| from the internet and thinking it immediately applies to
| you. Trivializing and attributing burnout with hard, driven
| work is equally harmful, in my opinion, because burnout is
| just as much a larger combination of other factors. Worse,
| one could easily overlook actual mental issues present in
| their lives because the internet tells you its burnout.
| bradlys wrote:
| > I would say avoid blanket advice like "don't push yourself
| hard you'll burn out". Burnout is a real thing but it's
| ridiculously overblown. I get burned out often but it usually
| only lasts a few days. Successful people mitigate this by
| taking vacation days, not by deciding to coast through the
| year.
|
| You probably get frustrated. You're not getting burned out.
| ArnoVW wrote:
| If your point is that some people confuse frustration with
| burn-out, I can't really argue with that.
|
| But from someone who has experienced burn-out, it's
| definitely not something to take lightly. Real burn out
| kills your curiosity, your capacity to concentrate, to
| enjoy things. It's close to depression. And like any
| disease, once it has you in its fangs, it realise how much
| you miss the life you took for granted before. I know
| people that have had to abandon a network and a carreer,
| and that have not recovered three years on.
| nawgz wrote:
| >Burnout is a real thing but it's ridiculously overblown
|
| Right, people reporting the way they feel is a total lie
|
| Speaking as a dev who spent 2018-2019 30% out-of-state for
| travel - you're wrong
| matwood wrote:
| > Burnout is a real thing but it's ridiculously overblown.
|
| True burnout probably isn't as common as the internet makes
| it out to be. But, actual burnout is a real thing and can be
| completely debilitating.
|
| It's a lot like over training when exercising. It's serious
| when it happens, but it isn't that common among the workout
| for 30-60 minutes/day type people.
| munificent wrote:
| _> I get burned out often but it usually only lasts a few
| days._
|
| It sounds like what you're describing here is simple fatigue
| and not burnout. Burnout is psychologically different from
| fatigue in important ways, just like depression is different
| from feeling sad and PTSD is different from feeling worried.
|
| _> Some people are healthier, happier and thrive through the
| feeling of productivity - whether it be work, a hobby, or a
| side project. I 'd say depression is more common with people
| who don't have anything to do._
|
| Yup. People thrive when they feel they are using their
| strengths towards meaningful ends.
| throwaway2245 wrote:
| > Literally, a minute ago I saw a tweet from a guy is very well
| known, and dedicated his life for one thing. And he's working
| really hard.
|
| He is _tweeting_. That means his goal is to portray a certain
| image. Given your impression, that is part of his intended
| image and he almost certainly does not work as hard as his
| social media makes out.
|
| (And, if he is that well-known, he might employ people to take
| care of his social media)
| ipunchghosts wrote:
| I think everyone is different. But, for me, to live a happy life,
| I have to balance my relationships, work, and exercise. I try to
| make systems that keep my working while at work and keep me
| focused on people when not at work. I think a lot about making
| sure I am enjoying the journey and not just focused on the
| destination.
| didibus wrote:
| I've personally not find pushing myself to ever yield better
| outcomes. I think we have this false causation between pushing
| ourselves and achieving something.
|
| In fact, I think we often would rather push ourselves in an all
| out burst of max effort exhaustion, than put dedication and
| consistency behind a goal.
|
| Pushing yourself just a little bit more, but sustainably,
| consistently, and actually taking your progression slower, giving
| yourself more time to achieve your goals, but making sure that
| you're constantly moving little by little closer to it. That's
| what worked best for me. It means the journey feels easy as well,
| it just becomes a routine of excellence.
|
| I think what often happens is that we're too impatient, probably
| because we're anxious about the thing we're trying to achieve,
| we're stressed about it and would like to get it over with so we
| can be stress free again, so we give a big push, and you know
| what, most of the time that push does nothing, and you get more
| stressed but also exhausted. At that point, flight is often the
| only recourse left.
|
| The only exception to this might be short little events, like
| sure if you have an exam, a bit of stress and a last all out
| effort can help. If you're competing in some athletic event
| similarly. But for most other life goals, I'm not so sure.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| > _In fact, I think we often would rather push ourselves in an
| all out burst of max effort exhaustion, than put dedication and
| consistency behind a goal._
|
| I keep reading all these words about patience, consistency, how
| it compounds over time. I believe in all of that. But my own
| reality is this: I seem to have a very high activation
| threshold around most of things. For some, this means I'm
| unable to maintain steady, casual pace. By the time I work up
| enough energy to move past the potential barrier, the scheduled
| time is up and I should go do something else. In these cases, I
| naturally fall back to the pattern of working up the energy and
| then going non-stop. It tends to make the activation barrier
| even higher, but over time it seems to integrate to more actual
| progress.
|
| (On that note, being a husband and a father, forcing me to keep
| a semblance of regular schedule, made this difficult for me.)
|
| > _The only exception to this might be short little events,
| like sure if you have an exam, a bit of stress and a last all
| out effort can help. If you 're competing in some athletic
| event similarly. But for most other life goals, I'm not so
| sure._
|
| I wish I knew how to reach that state, instead of having this
| natural tendency of turning things into "short little events".
| stasiu wrote:
| O yeah, this threshold is real for the too.
|
| If I have a relatively focused task to work on, but I also
| have meeting in the middle of the day, can be a 30 minute
| call, I know I will not succeed. I really need that build up
| and then hold on to that momentum. And after, even when I'm
| satisfied and happy with my work, its super hard to let go. I
| will keep looking into improvements during the evening and
| will linger on it in bed.
|
| I still have to figure out how to deal with this. But then
| I'm only 29 and just starting my professional career, so
| enough time to learn and grow.
| didibus wrote:
| There's two quotes related to my prior comment that I like to
| keep in mind, thought others might find them insightful as I
| did:
|
| > There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man;
| true nobility is being superior to your former self.
|
| That one reminds me what success even means. Simply growing
| myself, being slightly better today than I was yesterday is
| accomplishment and success in itself. When you focus on others
| or external achievements, you tend to get lazy in your approach
| to growth, you look for shortcuts, push harder than is smart,
| and you get anxious, nervous, stressed in a way that will slow
| your growth long term.
|
| > Most people overestimate what they can do in a day, and
| underestimate what they can do in a month. We overestimate what
| we can do in a year, and underestimate what we can accomplish
| in a decade.
|
| This one reminds me why you got to give yourself longer
| horizons to success. Success and accomplishment follow an
| exponential curve in my opinion, you need to keep that focus
| and continue to accumulate that momentum until the tipping
| point.
| croissants wrote:
| A physical illustration of this point: I read a book about
| bodyweight exercise about a year ago. One section of the book
| was about stretching. One piece of advice on stretching was "go
| until you're slightly uncomfortable, and then try to relax".
| Don't go until it hurts and summon reservoirs of willpower to
| grit it out -- go until it's a little tough, and slowly let
| yourself see that it isn't _that_ tough. I 've found this to be
| applicable in a lot of contexts.
| User23 wrote:
| I find Hans Selye's theory of adaptation[1] to be compelling and
| useful. Among other things it clearly indicates when to stop.
| It's also useful for understanding how to train your body, be it
| for strength, poisons, or any number of other non lethal
| stressors.
|
| [1] https://charlies-magazines.com/general-adaptation-syndrome/
| tracedddd wrote:
| It's amazing how envious one can be of another's suffering. I
| really want nothing more than to be driven and stressed about if
| I should relax more. I'm moderately successful at whatever I do,
| but I could be so much more if I could find a way to apply myself
| even 10%. Instead I always take the low commitment, easy money,
| do the minimum required route. It's so natural.I'm sure it sounds
| nice to many people but I despise myself for it.
| nix23 wrote:
| >It's amazing how envious one can be of another's suffering.
|
| No problem, start Climbing and Mountaineering you will learn
| really fast that there is no low commitment, not a community or
| other peoples that can push or judge you, the situation
| (nature) demands that from you, there is no NO, and there is no
| give up. At the end of the day you feel like buddha and
| superman, repeat that 100s of times and your focus will
| compleetly shift away from the commitment standpoint to the
| "what do i really wanna achieve"-point the rest is nonsense and
| will come automatically.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| I feel you. I had few experiences of prolonged hyperfocus in my
| life, and I'm still amazed about how much I could accomplish in
| short time, how full of energy I was, and how _happy_ I was
| then. Alas, I can 't reproduce this state.
|
| I've mentioned this on HN before and got some good ideas in
| replies[0], but I still can't find a formula that can bring
| that state back. Unfortunately, I concluded that the most
| plausible answer is somewhat dysfunctional and... "base", for a
| lack of better term - those hyperfocus achievements had a big
| component of impressing my peer group. They started with me
| telling myself or someone else, "like hell I/we can't do X,
| hold my beer...". Something I can't really recreate these days.
|
| --
|
| [0] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24318052
| jborden13 wrote:
| My barometer is whether I'm passionate about how I'm spending
| my time and excited for the future potential.
|
| It's interesting because I'm currently at that crossroads in my
| life. I just left the PE that bought my firm and am unemployed
| for the first time in 20 years. Wife is freaking because loss
| of income is detrimental to the house we're currently trying to
| buy and just scary to her.
|
| Building great things from the ground up with great people is
| where my passion lies. I'm not really the guy to get a job with
| one foot out the door or do 2 things halfways - and I know
| ultimately living my time passionately will win out. I guess
| I'm just saying that I understand where you're at, from an
| inverted perspective.
|
| It's an exhausting life at times but feels well lived.
| atoav wrote:
| For me it is the polar opposite. I just do constantly. When
| people ask me what I did that week I have to stop myself from
| listing things exhaustively because it would take to long and I
| don't want to excert that kind of pressure.
|
| For me this is more a mode of operation. My way to relex is to
| be productive in a different field (e.g. to relax from
| programming I'd do electronics, build a thing in Blender, etc.)
| SuoDuanDao wrote:
| Are there steps you could point to that indicate how you
| found your way to that mentality? I'm sure it's genetic to
| some degree, but if you could help other people get
| comfortable in that mode of operation it would be worth a
| lot.
| wsinks wrote:
| If it helps you talk about it at all, one of my friends calls
| just doing things to stay busy as "tinkering". Nice catch all
| term for whenever you're relaxing in a different domain.
| dcolkitt wrote:
| I think a good rule of thumb is that people are strongly overly
| biased towards inaction and laziness. Humans evolved in a
| calorie-scarce environment. Conserving energy and effort was
| literally a matter of survival. It makes sense to select for lazy
| behavior, especially when rewards are intangible or not
| immediately guaranteed.
|
| Of course in the modern world, calories are too cheap to meter.
| Our instincts no longer make sense. It's almost certainly the
| case that our laziness, driven by a vestigial impulse to conserve
| calories, far exceeds what's optimal or necessary.
|
| The one exception to this is the tiredness of sleep deprivation.
| Critical biological functions occurs in deep sleep, and being
| exhausted due to lack of sleep cannot be made up with extra
| calories. The best advice is to never allow yourself to become
| sleep deprived. That removes any ambiguity about whether a
| perceived lack of energy is genuine exhaustion or can be powered
| through with willpower.
| avindroth wrote:
| I will say using this as umbrella explanation for laziness can
| be very, very, very bad for psychological introspection.
|
| Very bad. But what you are saying is probably right.
| intrepidhero wrote:
| You make a good and valid point. But I'd suggest there is
| probably more than _one_ exception. For people dealing with
| cancer, chronic fatigue, clinical depression or a bunch of
| other things I 'm not thinking of, the advice to "just power
| through" is pretty damaging, physically and emotionally.
| AbrahamParangi wrote:
| It must be okay to say things that are only 95% true.
| Otherwise we cannot say anything at all.
| groby_b wrote:
| It is. Note that OP wasn't criticized for the statement per
| se, but that PP suggested an amendment to that statement.
|
| It must be equally OK to amend incomplete statements,
| otherwise we stagnate.
| jpitz wrote:
| It is ok to say things that are only 95% true.
|
| It is ok to point out the 5%.
| AbrahamParangi wrote:
| Yes.
| bergstromm466 wrote:
| Not sure if you misread it but your "yes" sounds like
| maybe you read this as a question: "is it...", and not
| the "it is..." that OP wrote.
|
| I want to reiterate that for people with few spoons, they
| don't need to get permission to be allowed to only do
| what works for them, or to feel shame for not being able
| to do what can seem easier for others: i.e. 'powering
| through'.
|
| I've seen this ugly thing where people make all sorts of
| assumptions about me, and perhaps unconsciously, yet
| verbally, speak out their train of thought, that means
| they often say something that 'excuses me' for not
| 'powering through', or that they now understand why I do
| not force myself to 'power through'. It sucks because
| it's a constant reminder of the ruthless productivity
| that is expected in many arenas in modern life. A
| conversation like this can also lure me back into slowly
| taking on way too much again - way too fast, and not
| looking after myself or others.
|
| Not all disabilities are visible.
| orzig wrote:
| Worth noting that the portion of people dealing with
| something that could drain at least some energy each day is
| almost certainly more than 5%
|
| It could be as simple as having a young child, for example.
| 29athrowaway wrote:
| That is not the case for everyone. When I was student I did not
| have plenty of food and I think this scenario is very common.
| eeZah7Ux wrote:
| This you have a source for such claims? There's enough to
| unpack for a PhD in anthropology.
| fantod wrote:
| So true. I used to burn out fast whenever I was very motivated
| about some goal. Now when I feel that motivation, I think about
| the long term and make it a priority to keep a regular schedule
| and avoid burn-out.
| zarkov99 wrote:
| The Wim Hof method rests on the assumption that peaks of stress
| are good for you, thus we benefit from artificially generating
| these peaks through exposure to cold and breath holding.
| Anecdotally this seem to work rather well and there is growing
| scientific evidence to confirm it.
| nix23 wrote:
| Funny that there is a mountain (Matterhorn) because that's
| exactly the question on a mountain, you should push as hard as
| possible to come back safely to your bed and not the top, and
| that my friends is the answer to the question, on a mountain that
| is 1.Survive 2.have a great adventure 3.stand on top...
| gruglife wrote:
| Harder than last time
| TimPC wrote:
| I think the answer for everyone is different. Never pushing
| yourself enough that you don't know how you respond to that type
| of stress is clearly too conservative if you're hoping to
| accomplish things that require hard work and dedication. Once you
| know how you respond it's important that you account for that. If
| your stress response is extreme, it's important that you dial
| things back. If your stress response is quite manageable then you
| can probably push yourself harder than others. There is a lot of
| individual variation in how people respond to stress so the right
| answer is different for everyone. For instance, if you respond to
| stress by becoming paranoid you may want to dial things back
| dramatically as you might be at risk of developing mental illness
| from prolonged stress. Similarly, if you respond to stress by
| having illnesses become hard to shake you might want to dial
| things back or at least design your environment where you can
| turn off the stress when you get sick and focus on getting
| better. Being self-aware is an important skill and I think it's
| probably the most relevant variable in stress management.
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| "If I had seven hours to cut down a tree, I would spend five
| hours sharpening my axe" - attributed to Abraham Lincoln.
|
| You should push yourself. You shouldn't push yourself too hard.
| In terms of physical activity, you should push yourself to the
| point that it's hard, but not to the point that your injured, nor
| to the point that you're exhausted for several days. For mental
| activity, it's kind of the same.
| stasiu wrote:
| Thanks for sharing this article! Even though I know more people
| are thinking about/struggling with stress, its good to read
| others assessment on it.
|
| When covid came around and I started working from home I realized
| how much stress I had at the office. For at least the last 2 to 3
| years I would get these huge headaches which would completely
| disable me and completely drain my energy. I was convinced that
| it was purely physical for the longest time. I did yoga, worked
| out, when to chiropractor, ... nothing really helped. I ended up
| at a physiotherapist with a lot of experience, who was able to
| look beyond the physical. After having yet another huge headache
| during my work week I discussed this with her, we were looking
| for the what could have stressed me. It was an email.
|
| I was working on one project that I needed to finish to continue
| the work of my team when an email came in about another project I
| had been pushing away for a while. This email reminding me of
| that project stressed me so much that it completely disabled me.
|
| I still regularly have these headaches, but now I can start
| thinking to myself, what stresses me here? And I can focus on
| fixing those issues. Most of these issues aren't just an easy
| fix, especially now, but its helping me. I'm helping me, I'm
| listening to my body.
|
| Also related to the topic of stress and its consequences is When
| The Body Says No by Dr. Gabor Mate [1]. He did a few talks on the
| subject, you can find them on Youtube [2].
|
| 1. https://drgabormate.com/book/when-the-body-says-no/
|
| 2.
| https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=when+the+body+s...
| thick wrote:
| These sort of articles need a gigantic preface: you're talking
| about a minute portion of the population who gives a damn enough
| about things to legitimately push themselves hard enough to
| suffer consequences from doing so.
|
| For rest of the population, they aren't pushing themselves
| anywhere near close to their limit. They don't even know where
| their limits lie.
|
| People can stress and get ulcers from whatever. But to be wired
| in a way where you are stressed because you're not at the top of
| your game and you think you're losing it, is a certain kind of
| personality.
| hinkley wrote:
| At any given moment? Yes.
|
| Across the course of a lifespan, the number of people who
| _have_ pushed themselves that hard is much higher. Some get
| disillusioned by the process, others get full-on burnout.
|
| That said, the people who have it in their future are not
| reading persuasive writing about it, and haven't discovered
| hackernews. Possibly never will. Some of the people who are
| currently living it are within the HN demographic, but only a
| fraction, in either sense. So practically speaking this is more
| of a nostalgia piece for much of HN instead of persuasive
| writing.
| leafmeal wrote:
| This article is directed at people who _consider_ pushing
| themselves hard (whether or not they do). As someone who doesn
| 't do shit, but _thinks_ about doing lots and pushing myself
| hard, I still found it an insightful read.
| Xcelerate wrote:
| For some reason, I find meaning in pushing myself as far as I
| can, despite the constant stress it entails. A family member has
| commented more than once "why do you have to obsess over
| everything you do to the point of sucking all of the fun out of
| it?" But to me, the obsession is what makes it rewarding. I guess
| my view is that anything worth doing is worth overdoing. It's not
| enough to play piano as a hobby; I have to do it 12 hours at a
| time. It's not enough to get into cooking; I have to read all of
| the archived blog posts I can find from world class chefs and
| attempt to duplicate their approach at home with week long meals.
|
| I'm not really sure why I am this way, but I do know that the
| periods in my life when I have tried to not be this way have been
| some of the most miserable.
| RankingMember wrote:
| At least in my own experience, when I take things in my life
| this way, I burn out on them fast. Consistency becomes elusive,
| and without consistency, real long-term progress is very
| difficult to achieve.
| jborden13 wrote:
| Totally. If my hobbies and fun activities are starting to
| feel more like a job rather than fun, I'm out.
| dstick wrote:
| So true. The compound effect.
| Frye wrote:
| At least in my own experience, when I do not do things
| consistently, real long-term progress is difficult to
| achieve. And that is what makes me obsess over things like
| OP.
| subdane wrote:
| Your handle and comment complement one another.
| joshxyz wrote:
| Username checks out!
| AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote:
| > But to me, the obsession is what makes it rewarding. I guess
| my view is that anything worth doing is worth overdoing.
|
| My father is like this. I've described him as a "serial
| obsessionist". I recognize in myself several unhealthy
| behaviors that likely developed due to his influence in this
| regard.
| powvans wrote:
| Same here. The whole thread is giving me a great chuckle. My
| son often asks, "why did Granddaddy do all this?" And I
| reply, "because for Granddaddy, anything worth doing is worth
| overdoing." Awesome to see that phrase repeated elsewhere.
| AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote:
| > "because for Granddaddy, anything worth doing is worth
| overdoing."
|
| One wonders if there is a correlation between this trait
| and people who end up in tech these days. The rampant
| overengineering and workaholism would suggest the
| possibility.
| grenoire wrote:
| This burns _me_ out. Might be different for you. I try to
| pursue things to the level of just being good at it. I relate
| to you, but I know that pushing myself to the extreme is not
| joyous. Tried, succeeded in excellence, and then mentally
| crashed.
| nix23 wrote:
| You speak directly from my heart of my former younger self.
| Never stop being obsessed, what i learned that obsession and
| fun needs to be one (for sure it's not always that fun but at
| the end of the day/week/month it has to be)
| ConfusedDog wrote:
| A lot of people are obsessed on things are interested at the
| time. So is my younger self. Now I can mostly control myself by
| learning it's time to let it go and being selective on what I
| should be obsessed about.
| dagav wrote:
| I've found that this strategy doesn't work over time. My goal
| isn't, "make the best meal ever tonight", my goal is, "shop,
| cook, and clean every week in order to have a good home cooked
| meal every night". Those are two very different challenges,
| where the latter requires a more pragmatic approach to time and
| energy management.
| waihtis wrote:
| Dont say it like it's a bad thing. We have limited time here,
| why not make the most out of it?
| Dudeman112 wrote:
| Excessive levels of obsession can lead to unhealthy behaviors
| that might reduce the overall amount of what you make out of
| it.
|
| Alternatively: people generally can walk further than they
| can run.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| On the other hand, constant context switching makes the
| cost of switching dominate the cost of activities. Less
| switching seems more efficient.
|
| (And before someone says life is not about efficiency - it
| is. Getting your life to be more how you like it for less
| effort is a good thing.)
| nullsense wrote:
| >I'm not really sure why I am this way, but I do know that the
| periods in my life when I have tried to not be this way have
| been some of the most miserable
|
| After getting diagnosed with ADHD last year at 32 a lot of
| things in my life made sense, including why I tend to focus on
| whatever I'm interested to the exclusion of almost all other
| things and just get into things way, way too intensely. There
| is no getting a little bit interested in something and just
| engaging with things casually for me. If I get into something
| it gets extreme. That can last 3 days, 3 weeks, 3 months, or 3
| years. I tend to like it when it's 3 years as the short
| duration hyperfocus tends to lead to a lot of impulse buys
| related to the obsession that then become useless once I'm no
| longer interested. The times when it goes for years I wind up
| outstripping my peers as most noone can match the time and
| intensity I put in.
| M277 wrote:
| Yeah, this really resonates with me. I am starting to feel
| it's a burden, though, because I really feel that I have no
| life.
|
| I can't do multiple things... either focus on studying and
| studying alone (and get above average grades).. but basically
| end up like I am now -- friendless, with boring hobbies and
| interests and very lonely. Or focus on things that fill my
| life, and catastrophically mess up my education. And for the
| discipline I want to work in, I really need good grades (but
| also good social skills).
|
| I also want to add that despite studying nearly 24/7, and
| fully understanding every single concept (and much more!), I
| still manage to mess up in exams due to the lack of
| concentration (I.e. accidentally saw that plus as a minus,
| didn't see that term, etc. Dumb things like that). (I need
| time to hyperfocus, and the exam durations don't permit this)
|
| I am still young, so this really worries me. I feel that I
| have basically wasted my teenage-hood, childhood, and now on
| the path of wasting my youth as well.
| fxtentacle wrote:
| I also had phases in university where I was focused on
| learning and lonely, and also phases where I was partying
| too much and not doing as well as I could have on the
| tests. But after a while, my life naturally balanced out.
| Maybe it was the long bicycle rides where I can peacefully
| wonder about what I want to focus on today, but I'm not
| sure.
|
| In any case, by now I've seen firsthand how little
| practical relevance most school and university lectures
| had. So I guess the first step for you should be to stop
| worrying too much about doing well on any given test.
| Chances are, being more relaxed will also help you avoid
| these little concentration mistakes.
| M277 wrote:
| >Maybe it was the long bicycle rides where I can
| peacefully wonder about what I want to focus on today,
| but I'm not sure.
|
| Yeah, I have recently picked up the habit of walking
| daily for 30 - 60 minutes, but at the end of the day.
| It's quite refreshing and helpful, not to mention the
| physical exercise aspect. It feels good to think on the
| day's decisions / what happened, and think if what I am
| doing is what I really want or not.
|
| >[...] by now I've seen firsthand how little practical
| relevance most school and university lectures had.
|
| Yeah, I have heard this a lot. My problem lies in GPAs
| being used as filters, both for job applications and
| scholarships. It just hurts to think of the possibility
| that I could be passed over, not because of my actual
| skillset or level, but due to exam performance.
| nullsense wrote:
| >I can't do multiple things.
|
| I feel ya man. The more interesting thing always wins and
| the other thing gets forgotten about or "I'll come back to
| it". Trying to do more than one thing feels conflicting
| pretty quickly.
|
| When I was younger in my mid 20s before I was diagnosed
| there was a period where it was amazing. People around me
| couldn't understand how I was able to get on the level I
| was able to get on. But if you zoom out and look at my life
| on the whole from 17 to 27 I had 5 different jobs and _in
| aggregate_ only managed to be gainfully employed for 1 year
| out of those 10. My early adult life was a wreck.
|
| Now I'm in my early 30s Ive got a decent career because I
| hyperfocused on that and instead now my health is a wreck.
| After suffering a brush with burnout last year I'm now
| trying to focus on my health.
|
| I think I cycle back and forth on it being a burden. Pre-
| diagnosis I just had no idea why I felt consumed by what I
| was into to the point where some days I felt like I had no
| agency because I was starting to get that burny-outy
| feeling and wish I could do something else with my time but
| was always find myself sucked into "just. one. more".
| Though there are times when you just are constantly in this
| deep flow state and nothing else matters. It's just
| impossible to balance. There is no balance.
| M277 wrote:
| Does the diagnosis (and the medication) at least help
| with balancing things a bit?
|
| I still haven't actually got diagnosed. It's only
| recently that I started suspecting I may have some form
| of ADHD.
| nullsense wrote:
| Some point after I got diagnosed and I was having a
| conversation with my wife and I just burst out crying as
| I explained to her how after spending north of 1000
| nights doing the dishes at 2am sometimes 3am because I
| was determined not to let our marriage bust up over me
| not doing the dishes and thinking to myself night after
| night "I wish I knew what this was called so I could get
| her to understand" I was just so overwhelmed with relief
| to finally know why and to be able to communicate that
| and to know there really is a reason underpinning it etc.
|
| It helped tremendously with that aspect. Balance so far I
| haven't been able to obtain still. I haven't had any luck
| with medication yet as apparently 20% of people don't
| respond to it and I might be one of those people. So far
| I've only tried a sustained release formulation of
| Methylphenidate and I don't notice any difference. For
| other people the difference is quite dramatic. I've been
| encouraged by r/ADHD to be persistent in trying to find
| if there is a combination of meds that works for me. Next
| I will try the instant release version.
|
| It's helped my health a lot. I would always put off going
| to the doctor or dentist and thought if I ignore it it'll
| go away. Since learning that untreated ADHD has a life
| expectancy that's shorter by 13 years on average (due to
| increased risk of a accidents, obesity, drug addiction,
| suicide etc) I've really started to put an emphasis on
| fixing my litany of health problems and in the past 12
| months have started to see progress.
|
| Getting diagnosed was the biggest revelation of my life
| and a very positive thing for me. The down side is is you
| go through this honeymoon phase where you feel like "now
| that I know what this is I can finally solve all the
| problems" and eventually realising it's a neurological
| condition and not a curable disease.
|
| But for sure if you have suspicions seek an evaluation.
| One thing that I found interesting is that it presents
| very differently in people, so how one person describes
| it might not be how you experience it. Generally speaking
| though if the patterns that emerge when you start looking
| through r/ADHD and How To ADHD YouTube channel and the
| book "Driven To Distraction" resonate with you then it's
| probably a pretty good indication.
| fantod wrote:
| What does this have to do with ADHD? I've always been this
| way as well. Do I have ADHD? I would have assumed the
| opposite.
| nullsense wrote:
| >What does this have to do with ADHD?
|
| A lot. So called "hyperfocus" is a hallmark of ADHD. Most
| people might think of ADHD as can't concentrate or get
| distracted easily due to the "attention deficit" moniker
| but in reality ADHD is badly named, and it's much more an
| inability to direct your attention. Hyperfocus is the the
| opposite extreme of not being able to concentrate and
| getting distracted easily as you find yourself unable to
| switch your attention away from what it is you're
| interested in. This is especially problematic when you have
| other activities that require your attention like filing
| your taxes, folding the washing, taking out the trash and
| doing the dishes as you tend to not be able to get your
| brain to accept engaging in those tasks and often some of
| them wind up left undone. Sure you made progress in
| whatever the latest obsession was, but you find
| relationships with those around you strained with this
| constant back and forth of "you left dirty dishes in the
| sink again last night, you forgot to take out the rubbish
| again, and when you fold the washing don't just fold the
| washing but also put it away please" and all you want to
| talk about is the cool new stuff you learned last night.
|
| Edit: I find it quaint that people can consider how hard
| they should push themselves and have the option of doing it
| or not. I get sucked into it no matter what.
| gowld wrote:
| ADHD is an "executive function" disorder -- it's hard for
| your brain to consistently focus on doing what you "want"
| it to do.
|
| It's stereotypically thought of as an inability to focus
| your attention ("can't sit still and concentrate"), but
| it's also an inability to _stop_ focusing on something you
| know isn 't in your overall interest/plans.
| swilliamsio wrote:
| What one person calls obsesssion, another calls perfectionism.
| will_pseudonym wrote:
| Can't remember where I picked this up, but this has been a good
| mental model for me for understanding the dimensions of this
| problem of picking what I should pursue in my career & life. It's
| a riff on "Good, Cheap, or Fast. Pick two." * Low
| Risk * Low Stress * High Reward.
|
| Pick two.
|
| It seems less down to choice than personality in terms of which
| two you personally should choose, but understanding the tradeoffs
| you're making is a good thing regardless.
| thih9 wrote:
| To me this seems overly simplified. I'm sure there are other
| situations. I.e. I'm sure sometimes it's "pick three", "pick
| one", "you don't get to choose", or even "pick none".
|
| And also, if you get a choice of "pick two", you could also:
| "pick one, balance the other two", "balance all three", etc.
|
| Finally, high risk seems tied to high stress, as also mentioned
| in sibling comment [1].
|
| [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25875828
| cialowicz wrote:
| I'm not following this one. Wouldn't something that's high
| reward and low risk also be low stress?
|
| I'm trying to envision something that's high reward and high
| risk, and isn't stressful.
| mzg wrote:
| A low-stakes job at a startup where the bulk of your
| compensation is equity maybe? Though that situation probably
| wouldn't stay low-stress for long, as you'll want to do
| everything you can to make those stocks valuable...
| chrisshroba wrote:
| A 40-hour a week job jumped to mind for me when I read this.
| Steady salary without too much risk (if you have decent job
| security), but half your waking hours during the week and
| stress that comes with that.
| thih9 wrote:
| I think I follow but I'm not sure this is correct. Looks
| like you're saying that jobs with steady salary and job
| security are stressful. What would be a less stressful
| alternative?
| econnors wrote:
| I could see truth in the sentiment that if you're receiving
| high reward, stress and risk are inversely correlated. e.g.
| if you're working at FAANG, and not working hard enough to be
| stressed, you're at risk of being fired. Or you're working
| hard enough to be stressed and therefor have low risk.
| tomjakubowski wrote:
| I'd say something like becoming a plumber satisfies that:
| it's hard, gross work, but it pays well and absent a
| breakthrough in robotics, I think has a low risk of
| disappearing as a career.
| [deleted]
| fb03 wrote:
| this is sincerely ingenious. so simple and yet so meaningful.
|
| for a long time I've dabbled on "low risk + low stress" and the
| new me is trying to go to the 'high reward' mode but yeah,
| something is got to give.
|
| I basically went from a government worker to an entrepreneur so
| basically from one side of the low risk of the spectrum to the
| other. needless to say ,things have been stressful :)
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