[HN Gopher] Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months ...
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Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet
Author : late
Score : 297 points
Date : 2021-01-20 05:23 UTC (17 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.reuters.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.reuters.com)
| tsjq wrote:
| "CCP allows / forces Jack Ma to publish a video" , would be
| closer to truth .
| gavanwilhite wrote:
| Pro-CCP crew out in force tonight!
| dang wrote:
| Comments like this break the site guidelines. Please don't.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| [deleted]
| mail2merge wrote:
| This is good https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25843617
|
| thank you dang
|
| Maybe Ma was just trying to stay out of the limelight[0] until
| the investigation of Ant Financial settled down a bit. He also
| owns SCMP[1], which has a mix of supportive and critical articles
| on the central government. Assuming he wanted to throw some
| pressure, in the mild form of (probably mostly disregarded)
| external censure back on the investigation, he may have been
| passive aggressively refusing to show his face. Perhaps to sow
| suspicion he'd been mysteriously detained in order to draw
| (Western) media scrutiny, and the "inevitable" torrent of China-
| critical speculation that invites. Of course, it could also be an
| Elon Musk-style stock manipulation play, but I think he's more
| motivated by the passions than pure financials.
|
| Speculation is fun, but it's possible this is apophenia.
|
| [0]no pun intended, he does like to dress up in camp drag and
| sing, if you don't believe, search for the videos, it's pretty
| funny for an (ex) CEO to do this
|
| [1]this article doesn't have much more than the Reuters link, but
| does have a couple of videos https://www.scmp.com/tech/big-
| tech/article/3118454/alibaba-f...
| dustinmoris wrote:
| I agree with dang's comment re nationalistic flamewar comments,
| but then I wonder why is this news article even allowed to appear
| on HN front page for so long and not being flagged by the admins?
| There is no substance in this news report which is interesting
| beyond the usual nationalistic flame wars and conspiracy theories
| or have I missed something?
| Out_of_Characte wrote:
| If it wasn't for the 'nationalistic flamewar' comments this
| article would still be a classic HN link; news over a buisiness
| leader that started the biggest IPO and then regulatory
| influence came along. regardless of where you fall on the
| debate, I think we're all interested and are going to follow
| Jack Ma's next steps.
| NumberCruncher wrote:
| > In the 50-second video, Ma, wearing a navy pullover, spoke from
| a room with grey walls, a large painting and floral arrangements.
| It was not clear where the room was. [...] Alibaba's Hong Kong-
| listed shares jumped to finish 8.5% higher on the news...
|
| I am pretty sure all sane people knowing that this video is going
| online had hold a huge long position on Alibaba shares.
| tachyonbeam wrote:
| Just knowing with certainty that Jack Ma is alive would have
| been enough to make a big options play.
| anothernewdude wrote:
| 50 seconds of prerecorded speech. yeah, okay China. Sure.
| 29athrowaway wrote:
| I would not be impressed. After reading this, everything is
| possible:
|
| https://www.odditycentral.com/news/chinas-rich-can-hire-body...
| dmix wrote:
| This isn't some low tier criminal case.
|
| China has done this before to other 'elites'. So did Saudi
| Arabia... this isn't showing up for a prison sentence.
| Saul_C wrote:
| This is not true.
| yonisto wrote:
| Now I need to be convinced it is not a deepfake
| m463 wrote:
| Sassy Justice to investigate.
| anothernewdude wrote:
| Yeah, his face looks too small in the video, lol.
| tylergetsay wrote:
| Could just be the camera lens but side by side photos it
| looks like they cropped the face in
| dan-robertson wrote:
| I'm inclined to think no. If deepfakes weren't a thing then
| there would be no need to fake something like this so I don't
| think there's be much reason to fake it now. Seems easier to
| just do the real thing.
|
| I think the whole point of the messaging is to make it obvious
| what's happened without explicitly saying it and a deepfake
| doesn't help with that. If they had done something worse they
| would have done it deliberately and would want to prove it.
| Kind of like when the Russians assassinate some dissident and
| go on their news to say "we absolutely deny the allegations
| that so and so was assassinated but I guess it just shows what
| happens when you are a traitor"
| growt wrote:
| Maybe at some point we'll invent a new greeting (like waving
| your fingers before your face) to prove we're really the person
| on the screen.
| tachyonbeam wrote:
| No reason you can't "deepfake" that too. IMO, in the arms
| race of fakes vs detection technology, the fakes will
| inevitably win. Eventually, you won't be able to tell if
| content is fake at all. You'll just have to decide if you can
| trust the source or not.
| deepstack wrote:
| yeah it is legit concern with the current situation in the
| world.
| deepstack wrote:
| Maybe a live zoom call with be good.
| vinni2 wrote:
| "he spoke to a group of teachers by video"
|
| How can we be sure it's not a deepfake? I would have been more
| confident if he met them in person.
| vaxman wrote:
| On Tuesday morning's broadcast (after the long holiday here in
| America), The "Money Honey" (Maria Bartiromo) expressed genuine
| concern that Ma was being "re-educated" by the Chinese
| Communist Party, though she did so in the context of a clip
| showing a popular talk-show personality (Katie Couric)
| suggesting that [the 74+ million] Americans who supported the
| current president should be "re-educated" (that is, subjected
| to "brain washing" to "clean" them of their undesirable
| thoughts). I join all of Wall Street in hoping that Ma is okay
| and his creative spirit continues --maybe we can get him back
| to Los Angeles (where he spent much time prior to launching his
| Chinese initiatives). [[For those outside of FinTech: Bartiromo
| is perhaps the most well connected financial reporter in the
| world and the first lady to report from the floor of the NYSE.
| She is a large part of what made FNN/CNBC what it is today
| before moving on to larger digs on FBN and has enough clout to
| launch her own financial network anytime she chooses.]]
| sebmellen wrote:
| > _In the 50-second video, Ma, dressed in a navy pullover, spoke
| directly to the camera from a room with grey marble walls and a
| striped carpet. It was not clear from the video or the Tianmu
| News article where he was speaking from._
|
| Uh, resurfacing from a fancy prison cell, perhaps? Can anyone
| find the video?
|
| EDIT: Here's the raw video:
| https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/13517514568277196....
|
| If you watch his eye movements, it looks like he's reading from a
| script.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| How much more mental gymnastics do we need? I think it's time
| to accept that he WASN'T jailed rather than trying to
| forcefully shoehorn the facts into a 'but China still bad'
| narrative.
|
| The HN commentary went from 'Jack Ma is a national security
| threat' to 'Jack Ma is a poor victim of the CCP will will never
| be seen again' to 'this is fake, he is still jailed'. If he
| shows up someone else in person next time, will people say that
| the CCP staged that too? It's getting too ridiculous.
|
| Cyrus Janssen, an expat who has worked in China for 12 years,
| blogged about this. I think he has a much more accurate view of
| what happened. Jack Ma was laying low, not jailed. And the
| rrason why his comments pissed off people is because the phase
| of development China is now in, rather than a generic "thou
| shall not criticize the party"
| https://cyrusjanssen.substack.com/p/trump-free-speech-and-wh...
|
| In contrast to China's reputation here in the west, the govt
| actually DOES listen to criticism. Yes they censor at the same
| time. Calling for violence and overthrow of the govt is not
| allowed. But at the same time they do listen, and for the past
| 20 years they've continuously reformed policy based on
| citizen's criticism on social media, or those submitted via
| official channels. The key is to be constructive, and to
| criticize policy rather than people.
|
| This also applies to this latest incident. Yes it bugged a lot
| of people in the government, but at the same time they're
| really looking into the actual criticism made and whether
| there's a need for reform.
|
| I am from China and I have family in China.
| raverbashing wrote:
| I think that from their several actions that China/CCP is not
| the best example of democracy and criticism acceptance
|
| So no I don't buy the retoric of misunderstood China
|
| > I am from China and I have family in China.
|
| So you're not behind the great firewall and don't need to
| contend with official internet censorship.
| dang wrote:
| Please don't post flamewar comments to HN. We've had to ask
| you this many times. Nationalistic flamewar is particularly
| unwelcome here.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| raverbashing wrote:
| Sorry about this Dang, the line is blurry on some topics
| and sometimes we get carried over and go outside the
| topic of the conversation.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| > It has been perfectly clear with the Chinese negligence
| around Covid
|
| Urgh, let me tell you some facts.
|
| On February 1 2020, I travelled from China (not Wuhan) back
| to the Netherlands, having aborted my holiday early. Wuhan
| was in lockdown for a week at that point, and my flight to
| the Netherlands was the very last one I could get. At that
| point, the WHO also declared global emergency.
|
| I arrived in Germany and the Netherlands. What happened in
| the airports? No temperature checks or other checks. Nobody
| who took note of my name for contact tracing. Nothing.
|
| Back in the Netherlands, I called the CDC: can I get
| tested? Reply: no, not even if I pay for it myself. I ask:
| do I need to quarantine myself? Reply: nope.
|
| I didn't trust that. Chinese media has been raging for
| weeks about how infectious and dangerous it was, and that
| it could be spread asymptomatically. So I voluntarily
| quarantined myself and my family for 2 weeks. Turned out I
| wasn't infected.
|
| Up until March or April or so, I saw on tv and newspapers
| and how multiple western governments called covid just a
| flu, that we're "well prepared", even criticizing the
| lockdown in Wuhan as a human rights violation.
|
| You want to talk _negligence_? Okay, China could have done
| a better job, but let 's say they were earlier by 2 weeks
| and reported to WHO mid-Dec rather than late-Dec. Would
| that have changed _anything_ when for months the west
| totally dismissed the virus as being dangerous, and gleed
| at China 's misfortune?
|
| > and how they treated the doctors that sounded the alarm
|
| Li Wenliang was not jailed. He was reprimanded by the
| police, and could go back to work the next day. He wasn't
| the first one: the first doctor who said something was
| Jiang Jixian, whose work led to the WHO escalation on Dec
| 31, 1 day after Li Wenliang said something. The Chinese
| court later ruled that the police's treatment of Li
| Wenliang was unjustified. The police then apologized.
|
| See also: "Some whistleblowers are more equal than others"
| https://www.mango-press.com/some-whistleblowers-are-more-
| equ...
|
| > the HK issue and with the Uighur concentration camps
|
| These are whole different, and rather complicated topics. I
| could go into them, but I need to know from you: do you
| actually want to discuss, or is this meant as a diss to me?
|
| > So you're not behind the great firewall huh? Reminds me
| of Chinese agents bullying Chinese students in Canada to
| not badmouth the government
|
| So what? I don't "bully" others for disagreeing with me
| about China, I talk to them. If you ask me whether those
| students should bully, then I'd say no: they should
| discuss. That's something they need to learn.
|
| But the same applies to a great many people in the west,
| who despite being raised in a free society, prefer to
| cancel rather than talk.
|
| Still, that doesn't mean that those students' support for
| China is not genuine or legit.
| tchalla wrote:
| You raise an important point. We see a lot of criticism
| of China on Covid despite them being at the forefront of
| the battlefield. On the other hand, large parts of the
| world reacted at a snail pace despite having a WHO
| warning. If we were to follow the same yardstick as
| China, the rest of the world won't do well on it.
| [deleted]
| baybal2 wrote:
| Quite naive so. The thinking that one can at least understand
| the rationale of not killing a hen laying golden eggs has no
| place in China.
|
| The reality is exact the opposite, and elites routinely
| keeping shooting the country, and themselves in the foot. Why
| should they care?
|
| Any ranked party member half way the ladder already has
| enough privileges to swim in lard for the rest of his life.
|
| I was pretty much there when Shenzhen govt bulldozed _close
| to 10000 factories_ in between 2009, and 2012 for universiade
| vanities. That was _one third_ of regions industry! _One
| third_
|
| That was single most economically suicidal move I've seen any
| government do, and that was right after the global financial
| crisis.
|
| That made a double digit dip in country's exports, and
| industrial output, so big it was.
| duxup wrote:
| He could be running a wonky business financially, and a
| victim of something else.
| ipiz0618 wrote:
| Given China's history to staging videos / forging evidence /
| faking suicides for oppositions [1][2], I'd say this is a
| valid concern.
|
| [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gui_Minhai#Release_from_PS
| B_cu...
|
| [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books
| glenstein wrote:
| Thanks. I've been on HN for more than a decade and this
| thread is just mind-boggling to read. Whatever people think
| is indicated by the facts of Jack Ma's case, it should be
| reconciled with the China's established history of
| abductions and disappearances, the reality of which are not
| disputed.
| ex3ndr wrote:
| This is exactly what iranian people told me: they are
| democratic country. AND in the very same sentence they
| concluded that they can ban messaging apps if government want
| to.
| La1n wrote:
| Those are not necessarily mutually exclusive
| baybal2 wrote:
| > rather than trying to forcefully shoehorn the facts into a
| 'but China still bad' narrative.
|
| And it is bad. The country run by a freaking communist party,
| if somebody didn't notice. And we are not even mentioning
| gulag, and hookers.
|
| > In contrast to China's reputation here in the west, the
| govt actually DOES listen to criticism.
|
| Because it is afraid of it?
|
| > The key is to be constructive, and to criticize policy
| rather than people.
|
| And follow the example of thousands of Chinese rural
| petitioners "constructively" sent to gulags.
|
| > Calling for violence and overthrow of the govt is not
| allowed.
|
| But how else would people stage a revolution against Beijing?
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| Look, if you don't believe me, at least believe in Kishore
| Mahbubani, ex-Singapore diplomat and ex-UN Security Council
| head. He's spoken extensively about this in his book "Has
| China Won?" and can corroborate what I said.
|
| In the past 40 years, the freedoms of Chinese people have
| exploded. People could not choose what to wear, where to
| work, what to eat, where to live. Now they can. Millions
| travel world-wide every year, and all of them return home.
| Why would they do that if China is as bad as you say?
|
| As for "a revolution against Beijing": prof. Mahbubani says
| that there are actually hundreds of protests in China every
| year. But those people aren't protesting _against_ the
| central government: they 're trying to _get_ the central
| government 's attention, to help them with their
| grievances. The central government is very popular.
| According to a poll by Harvard, who collected data over a
| 15 year period through anonymous in-person interviews,
| support for the central government has increased in this 15
| year period. In 2016 (last year of the study), it was at an
| all-time high: 96% of respondents said they're satisfied or
| very satisfied with the central government.
|
| What makes you believe you are more right than prof.
| Mahbubani and Harvard?
| jdc wrote:
| A bad party that is improving is still bad.
| em500 wrote:
| That's tautologically true of course. What is far less
| clear cut is whether it's preferable for someone (and
| their children) to stay in a country with a bad regime
| that's improving or in one with a good regime that's
| deteriorating. It depends on many factors (levels of
| goodness/badness, rate of improvement/deterioration,
| persistence and stability of trends, how one is
| personally affected by
| goodness/badness/improvements/deterioration).
|
| To make it more concrete, there are people (granted,
| overwhelmingly ethnically Had Chinese fluent in the
| language) who voluntarily choose to reside in China over
| the US or EU, and I don't think they are irrational about
| it.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| So what are the better choices? Do you think that if
| someone were to liquidate the CCP top members, plunging
| the country into chaos, that the Chinese would be better
| off?
|
| It's easy to say "X is bad" when you don't have to care
| about practical consequences, like whether there are
| better alternatives, why we're in a suboptimal situation
| in the first place, and how to get to a better place.
| baybal2 wrote:
| > Do you think that if someone were to liquidate the CCP
| top members, plunging the country into chaos, that the
| Chinese would be better off?
|
| Yes, very much so.
|
| Your presumption is that if CPCs rule, whose rule is a
| chaos itself, disappears, there will be more chaos?
|
| We are talking about immediate ruinous effects for the
| majority of Chinese every day communists stay in power.
|
| The moment it stops, lawless land repossessions
| instantaneously stop, house confiscations stop, fake
| cases, and expropriations against entrepreneurs stop.
|
| > It's easy to say "X is bad" when you don't have to care
| about practical consequences
|
| Practical consequences of letting communists to stay in
| power are millions left destitute every year after their
| land, property, and businesses are stolen.
| bollu wrote:
| > and all of them return home. Why would they do that if
| China is as bad as you say?
|
| Because getting a Visa that lets you stay abroad is
| actually really hard
| [deleted]
| La1n wrote:
| >sent to gulags
|
| The GULAG was a specific USSR agency and their camps. You
| can't just call any prison system you personally don't like
| GULAG.
| jdc wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide
| echelon wrote:
| > How much more mental gymnastics do we need?
|
| > I am from China and I have family in China.
|
| Would you publicly curse Xi and denounce the CCP?
|
| Please realize also that many in the West (myself included)
| are freaking out about China and are trying to counter its
| rise. This is a narrative that fits into their world view.
|
| I'm more worried about CCP fascism and hypersonic nukes than
| I am about climate change.
|
| I'm worried about what happens when Chinese software
| developers outnumber us, and all of our tech has been cheaply
| duplicated and sold around the world. When we have no other
| advantage, what then? Do we implode?
|
| I'm worried about our companies and politicians adopting
| capitalism and democracy with Chinese characteristics.
|
| ---
|
| Edit: downvotes trigger HN's post filter, so I'm including my
| replies below
|
| ---
|
| > That doesn't seem to fit the narrative that people have the
| agency to think differently from the status quo Americans
| would like to impose upon the world.
|
| Last time I was in China, a good third of the people I spoke
| in depth with openly discussed the corruption and expressed
| dissenting views. This was in private, of course.
|
| There were more than a few die-hard pro-CCP folks, but the
| talk of corruption was far more pervasive.
|
| You're still probably right.
|
| > Is this Great Replacement propaganda?
|
| It does sound a little like it. That's not at all my
| intention.
|
| I think it's appropriate to worry about a country copying
| tech that has a much larger, more productive population to
| sustain growth. Their protectionism doesn't help.
|
| But really this is all rooted in the single-party fascism.
| I'd be fine if China were a democracy. I might even move
| there myself.
|
| I don't care about my genes or my race or my progeny. I want
| the world to grow freer with every passing year. The CCP
| represents a major stumbling block in my worldview and sense
| of security.
|
| > You sit down and try to succeed on merit rather than
| privilege for once in your life
|
| Okay, that's a good point. But I'm working my ass off as it
| is, so I don't know how much latitude for adjustment I have
| here.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| There are a couple of paradigm shifts needed.
|
| In mainland China, people value outcome legitimacy rather
| than procedural legitimacy and freedom of speech. In other
| words: they care whether the government _actually_ does a
| good job, rather than whether the procedure through which
| the government was selected is correct, or whether they
| could criticize Xi.
|
| How would the government get feedback then if people aren't
| allowed to criticize? As I said before: one can submit
| feedback about policy. Just don't go around and insult
| people. The government monitors social media as well for
| grievances. At the same time they censor social media to
| prevent mass unrest, but they take grievances seriously and
| works to solve them.
|
| Whereas the west has freedom of speech as a core value,
| mainland Chinese value unity, face, action over talk and
| freedom from poverty. To them, it's much more important to
| be able to have a good economic life, than freedom of
| speech. After all, 2 generations ago the Chinese were dirt-
| poor. When I was born, food rationing still existed!
|
| As Kishore Mahbubani, ex-UN Security Council head and ex-
| Singapore diplomat, said: the CCP is in actuality more like
| a Chinese Civilization Party. Their goal is to advance the
| interests of Chinese civilization, not to spread communism
| world-wide.
|
| China is not facist. Facism means that society is
| deliberately split up in classes (e.g. races), with one
| class being seen as inherently superior to other
| "untermenschen". This is not China. There's no notion that
| Han is better than Yao, or whatever. Official government
| policy is to give ethnic minorities preferential treatment,
| such as easier access to university.
|
| Or maybe you're using "facism" as a generic word for
| something you don't like? This is an actual question, not a
| diss.
|
| As for hypersonic weapons: yes escalating weaponry is not
| good. But on the other hand, the US is not blameless in
| this: "The US Has No Place in the South China Sea Dispute"
| https://original.antiwar.com/dave_decamp/2020/07/19/the-
| us-h... The US isn't supposed to be sailing warships around
| in the South China Sea in the first place. How about we all
| calm down and de-escalate at the same time, rather than
| trying to demonize a single party?
|
| > When we have no other advantage, what then? Do we
| implode?
|
| What made America and the west great? It's because of the
| great many talented individuals, focus on science and
| technology, investment in education, research and
| development. _Keep doing that_. We 've been dropping that
| ball lately, becoming complacent. The west can easily
| compete with China toe-to-toe if only we get our shit
| together.
|
| China is not interested in exporting its governance model.
| It has never done that. There's no evidence it ever will do
| that. Why should they? It's not in their interest to change
| others' governance model. China's rise as a superpower is
| easily the most peaceful one in human history.
|
| China is not an enemy, not a threat. When China and the
| west come together, the whole world wins.
| baybal2 wrote:
| > The government monitors social media as well for
| grievances.
|
| I personally know people whose parents were stupid enough
| to go for such "anonymous grievance boxes" just to get a
| knock on the door from district committee enforcers the
| next day.
|
| You don't seem to know anything about modern China if you
| don't even know that.
|
| > After all, 2 generations ago the Chinese were dirt-
| poor. When I was born, food rationing still existed!
|
| > mainland Chinese value unity, face, action over talk
| and freedom from poverty
|
| If Beijing ever cared about freedom from poverty, China
| wouldn't be so poor as a result of its actions.
|
| And I am not talking about Mao era here, but very much
| modern day.
|
| > China is not interested in exporting its governance
| model. It has never done that.
|
| > It's not in their interest to change others' governance
| model.
|
| Then, why it is doing it?
|
| Beijing sent armed Maoists to Naxalite insurgency,
| Indonesian Maoist insurgency, Malaysian Maoist
| insurgency, Singapore coup attempt, North Korea, Nepal,
| Burma, Laos, Campuchia, Sri Lanka, and ~10 African
| countries?
|
| A solid record by any measure.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| > I personally know people whose parents were stupid
| enough to go for such "anonymous grievance boxes" just to
| get a knock on the door from district committee enforcers
| the next day.
|
| Okay, do tell. I'm being genuine here.
|
| If those boxes are anonymous, why do they know who sent
| it?
|
| What were the grievances? Why would they get in trouble?
|
| What did the district committee enforces actually do?
|
| How long ago was this?
|
| > If Beijing ever cared about freedom from poverty, China
| wouldn't be so poor as a result of its actions.
|
| > Then, why it is doing it?
|
| That's a long list, let me go into a few.
|
| North Korea is not an example of China exporting its
| governance model. If North Korea _actually_ follows China
| 's governance model it would be far more open than it is
| today. What happened is that during the Vietnam war,
| China allied with North Korea to prevent the Americans
| from setting up a base at the Chinese border. That's not
| "exporting governance model".
|
| Naxalite: where's the evidence that this insurgency is
| supported by China. Just because they're Maoist doesn't
| mean China did this.
|
| What do African countries have to do with this? Are you
| talking about this "debt trap" thing? China doesn't want
| African countries to default. China has even provided
| debt relief this year, without asking for anything in
| return.
|
| China hasn't fired a bullet across its borders for over
| 30 years. That's more than I can say about the current
| hegemon.
| dang wrote:
| Please don't cross into nationalistic flamewar. I respect
| and am grateful for how much your HN comments have
| improved over the years, in terms of sticking to the
| intended use of the site. And I'm aware that you know a
| lot about these topics. But your posts in this thread are
| sliding back into the sort of pattern we're trying to
| avoid here. Please go the other way.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| approxim8ion wrote:
| >Would you publicly curse Xi and denounce the CCP?
|
| What if they don't want to? There is a trend in the west
| that pretends like dissent would overflow in China if it
| wasn't suppressed, but what if people genuinely actually
| like the government? That doesn't seem to fit the narrative
| that people have the agency to think differently from the
| status quo Americans would like to impose upon the world.
|
| >I'm worried about what happens when Chinese software
| developers outnumber us
|
| Is this Great Replacement propaganda?
|
| >When we have no other advantage, what then? Do we implode?
|
| You sit down and try to succeed on merit rather than
| privilege for once in your life, not unlike the 200-odd
| countries that aren't superpowers.
| nyokodo wrote:
| > but what if people genuinely actually like the
| government?
|
| If that were the case then there would be no need for the
| censorship.
| approxim8ion wrote:
| I didn't mean all the people all the time. But this
| harranguing of any random individual asking them why they
| aren't criticizing the CCP with every living breath seems
| to count on the idea that they are afraid to speak up
| and/or brainwashed with evil oriental commie magic.
| lxe wrote:
| A Chinese person's perspective about China and its
| politics/government on HN/Reddit? Enjoy the following
| classics:
|
| 1) you're brainwashed.
|
| 2) how do you justify the human rights violations?
|
| 3) you're a CCP shill
|
| 4) Would you publicly curse Xi and denounce the CCP?
|
| Good luck!
| fsdjlkfsjl wrote:
| Chinese here (and sorry for the bad English).
|
| I agree with everything FooBarWidget said, and it's super
| annoying every time HN has an anti-China boner based on
| ridiculous things (don't even let me start about Reddit.)
|
| And then, I found myself.. don't want to risk saying
| anything here with my main account (hence this throwaway
| account), even if it's defending China.
|
| Will anything happen to me? Very unlikely, even if I "curse
| Xi". But still, I don't want any topics about Chinese
| politics to be related with my main ID, "just in case".
| Unlike FooBarWidget who (by glancing at his Twitter) has
| settled in EU, I don't have this luxury still plan to go
| back to China.
|
| I found this whole "mental gymnastics" I have myself ironic
| and, to be honest, pathetic. So I just stopped. :/
| lxe wrote:
| I'm posting as my main account and I hope the downvotes
| are the only repercussion. I think it's fair to bring
| attention to when the discourse gets a little one-sided.
| secretcombos wrote:
| He could very well be from the 50 Cent Party. HN has no
| doubt been infiltrated by them:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party
| dang wrote:
| You've broken the site guidelines egregiously with this
| comment. Please stop creating accounts to do that with.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| cepth wrote:
| Yes, a HN member with a profile created in December of
| 2008, 5800+ Karma, with links to his Twitter and name of
| his employer in his profile page is a Wu Mao (50 center).
|
| The CCP is truly all powerful!
|
| If my dripping sarcasm wasn't clear, you're way off base
| here.
|
| Edit 1: to the downvoters, please feel free to explain
| why it's appropriate to accuse a 12-year HN member of
| being a paid shill for the CCP when all evidence points
| to the contrary.
| lxe wrote:
| Keybase, twitter, normal twitter tech posts stuff...
| followers... why randomly throw conspiracies at people?
| ncann wrote:
| The one you're replying to sounds like sarcasm to me. Or
| a very ironic comment given the comment it's replying to.
| It's hard to tell.
| cepth wrote:
| I might've thought so too, but the account I'm replying
| to seems to be a genuine CCP critic (which is totally
| fine!).
|
| A post about Putin and the CCP exploiting US domestic
| political turmoil:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25830075
|
| A book recommendation by a longtime China-skeptical
| writer: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25843422
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gertz)
|
| My personal preference is for a HN community where
| dissenting views don't lead to assigning ulterior motives
| (in this case being paid to shill for the CCP) to our
| debating "opponents".
| Leary wrote:
| Hacker News discovers more than a billion Chinese people
| actually supports the Communist Party
| vkou wrote:
| More than a billion is quite a stretch, but you could
| probably find a few hundred million without too much
| trouble.
| dang wrote:
| I understand the frustration, but please don't post
| flamewar comments to HN, and especially not nationalistic
| flamewar comments, regardless of how wrong other people are
| or you feel they are. These threads are already hellish
| enough.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| lxe wrote:
| Sorry. Please flag or remove if I took it too far.
| stelonix wrote:
| Okay, maybe I'm missing something, but someone posted[0]
| that exact phrase #4 at the same time you posted it. What
| gives?
|
| PS: I agree with your points and am saddened the anti-China
| rhetoric has been flooding HN over the past years. I read a
| comment here long ago that said "HN is full of neocons" or
| something like that, but I can't help but believe there's
| also state backed propaganda (shills) fomenting sinophobia.
|
| [0] https://imgur.com/a/z6Jq8Cf
| [deleted]
| Yetanfou wrote:
| Well, there is also that thing with those concentration
| camps which have come to our attention in the last few
| years, may I suggest that to be one of the reasons for
| the "sinophobia" (stupid word, I do not see any
| irrational fear of China here, what I do see is criticism
| which is not the same thing, at all) seen here?
| Yetanfou wrote:
| Ah, so it is just like, say, a supporter of the outgoing
| president giving his perspective on things on HN after
| which he's met with similar beratements ( _s
| /CCP/GOP/g;s/Xi/Trump/_)? Maybe I can generalise this to a
| supporter of anything which goes outside of a polarised
| narrative being met with such?
| mda wrote:
| Yeah I wonder what the answers would be? Probably: No, Yes,
| No, No?
| kobayashi wrote:
| I'm not sure if, or how, one should engage with an apologist
| for a tiranical, genocidal, dictatorial regime.
| hungryhobo wrote:
| accept that the tiranical, genocidal, dictatorial regime is
| appreciated by many in china.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| I'll tell you how: by being open to the notion that maybe
| "tiranical, genocidal and dictatorial" are false. And that
| Chinese people have different values, which are equally
| valid, but that are nevertheless not forced upon you.
|
| If you _actually_ want to discuss this, I 'd be happy to.
| But I need to know whether you are genuine, or whether you
| merely mean to diss me.
| [deleted]
| zhdc1 wrote:
| It's extremely unlikely that the founder and CEO of a $600B
| publicly traded company would completely disappear for
| several months on his own initiative. A short interview or a
| couple of emails would have dispelled all speculation that he
| was detained without agitating the Chinese government.
| liuliu wrote:
| He is not the CEO. I don't think he holds any official
| title since late 2019.
| ALittleLight wrote:
| As I understand it he's been out of the public eye since
| October, after making comments critical of the Chinese
| government, and now the government is making noise about
| nationalizing his company. I agree that's not conclusive
| proof that the government has done something to him, but
| speculating that they have hardly seems like "mental
| gymnastics".
| miked85 wrote:
| > _How much more mental gymnastics do we need?_
|
| The only mental gymnastics I see are in the post I am
| replying to.
| hawkice wrote:
| I read his comments, and have studied Chinese and China for
| years. While he took a pretty slight risk, (it seems) he only
| criticized other business owners and potential regulatory
| ideas. Honestly, his comments were so mild that you'd
| probably regularly hear similar stuff _coming from the
| regulators themselves_ in most other countries (developed or
| no).
|
| I'm not sure where on HN you found the sentiment Jack Ma was
| considered a national security threat. I think you're
| painting a picture here that is very bizarre, and not
| supplying the context necessary to understand why.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| > I'm not sure where on HN you found the sentiment Jack Ma
| was considered a national security threat.
|
| During the HN submission about Ant's IPO, before it was
| halted. For example:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24910410
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24906771
| hawkice wrote:
| One of those was flagged, so it's pretty clearly "not-
| HN". The other says it's a state-run business (which, I
| mean, lots of people disagreed with that). That's miles
| away from saying something is a security threat [edit:
| it's worth saying, for those not clicking the link, he
| compares it to Saudi Aramco, which is, I mean, I've never
| heard that IPO described as a security threat either, so
| there's not really even any implications I can detect].
| Nowhere in there is the narrative you're describing.
| sebmellen wrote:
| It's gaslighting. The pro-China crowd has gotten very
| good at this. Look for the downvotes on posts with
| countervailing narratives.
| dang wrote:
| Please don't break the site guidelines like this.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
|
| This sort of perception is notoriously unreliable and is
| pretty much entirely in the eye of the beholder. The
| majority of comments in this thread, and basically every
| other HN thread on the topic, are not at all as you
| describe.
| sebmellen wrote:
| Hey @dang, I appreciate your comment and will take it
| into account. I certainly appreciate your moderation and
| how quiet a place HN is in comparison with the rest of
| the rowdy world & internet. It's certainly a special
| place and I don't want to disturb that.
|
| As you can see here:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25843540, I do try
| to reach out where the opportunity is available, even
| with those I might disagree with.
|
| --
|
| It seems you think this issue is particularly
| inflammatory to me (and others) because of "nationalistic
| interests," but for me it's much more about friendships.
| I have a group of Falun Gong practicing friends in
| Amsterdam, my math tutor was Taiwanese and had family who
| disappeared on the mainland, and I know a _lot_ of people
| who were lucky enough to get out of China, including a
| very good family friend.
|
| On the other hand, an opthamologist who almost treated me
| and whose clinic I regularly visit stepped down after
| being ousted as a member of the Thousand Talents Program
| (see
| https://timesofsandiego.com/education/2019/07/08/ucsd-
| doctor...).
|
| --
|
| With respect, I do think there is a lot of gaslighting in
| this thread (from my side as well, perhaps).
|
| I'll refrain from posting such things in the future.
| dang wrote:
| I appreciate that you have deep personal connections to
| this issue, as do many other commenters, both on your
| side and the opposite side. What are we to do with that
| but try harder to respect each other?
| sebmellen wrote:
| You're entirely right.
|
| In the words of MLK:
|
| > _Hate cannot drown out hate, only love can do that._
|
| Please don't get me wrong -- I wasn't trying to excuse my
| wording; I was just trying to explain that I don't _mean_
| to create a flamewar or bitter argument. My comments are
| a genuine expression of my thinking, and I 'm not trying
| to make HN a place for ideological battle. I suppose
| these discussions just naturally veer into that sort of
| back-and-forth.
|
| I hope that makes sense.
| dang wrote:
| Sure, and I appreciate that. I think what makes this
| problem so hard is that we depart from that spirit
| without realizing that we've done so. This is why it
| feels like we're posting out of love and respect while
| the other party is being rude and is in denial,
| gaslighting, or worse. Meanwhile the other party feels
| exactly the same way. Each of us is casting our own
| shadow on the other.
|
| That's unfortunately how human communication works,
| especially online, and it takes a conscious (and
| considerable) effort to learn to do otherwise. It's not
| easy! We're all working on it, including me.
| Unfortunately, when the topic is divisive and activating,
| the rapid-fire, low-information nature of internet
| comments causes threads like this to compound extremely
| quickly into an all-out war.
| sebmellen wrote:
| With all due respect it seems _all_ of your tweets center
| around defending the Chinese government. Why???
|
| I mean, saying that:
|
| > _Many people see the Chinese govt 's deficiencies as a
| result of "evil". I don't really subscribe to that. I think
| it has more to do with "incompetence". Building a large
| organization, with the right culture, is _hard _._
|
| is kind of ridiculous. Would you say the same thing about the
| Soviets (with their Gulags) or Nazis (with their death
| camps)? I mean, literal genocide [2] is not just _"
| incompetence"_. It's something far more malevolent. And
| talking about "building the right culture" sounds like
| Silicon Valley startup-babble, and seems wholly inadequate as
| a response to the magnitude of surveillance and oppression in
| China [3].
|
| [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide
|
| [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_China
| dang wrote:
| Please don't bring in someone's posts on other sites as
| ammunition in an argument here. I know it always feels
| relevant, but the general case of people behaving this way
| is very ugly indeed, and we're trying to avoid the online
| callout/shaming culture here.
|
| It's sufficient to reply to what someone has actually
| posted in this context.
|
| https://hn.algolia.com/?query=online%20shaming%20by%3Adang&
| s...
| sebmellen wrote:
| Should I remove the references? I'd be glad to if you
| think that's appropriate.
| dang wrote:
| I wouldn't worry about it. The main thing is not to
| repeat the pattern.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| Of course it's ridiculous if you only know China through
| the media. But have you considered that maybe the media
| representation is inaccurate? I've actually lived there, my
| wife comes from there, and my family is still there. This
| is _combined_ with new information about China coming from
| the west, and having no restrictions here. I 've studied
| some of China's recent history, a subject which is rarely
| taught in the west. Why do you think you know the truth
| better than I do?
|
| > Also, why live in the Netherlands if China is so great?
| Wouldn't it make sense to move back there, if everything is
| on the up & up?
|
| Because China _wasn 't_ great. I came here in 1993 with my
| parents, back then China was dirt-poor. My wife came here
| much more recently, in 2012, and she's of the opinion that
| the Netherlands is very boring and has no good food
| compared to China. She'd fly back multiple times a year if
| she could.
|
| For a more realistic perspective on Chinese society and its
| changes in the past 20 years, you should read this: The
| American Dream Is Alive in China
| https://palladiummag.com/2019/10/11/the-american-dream-is-
| al...
|
| > is kind of ridiculous.
|
| This is a whole different topic. There's a lot to
| deconstruct and to respond to in just those few sentences
| you typed, and those few links you sent. I would be glad to
| engage with you on this subject, but I have to know
| something first: do you truly wish for a conversation, or
| do you just want to stick with your existing opinion?
|
| China has problems, but it isn't the boogeyman the media
| makes it out to be. When the west better understands China,
| and when the west and China come together, the whole world
| wins.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| I found the greatest offenders of media that portrays
| China in a poor light are CCTV, xinhua, people's daily,
| etc... if you consume those media, you get the impression
| that China is a backwards authoritarian state with lots
| of flaws, but of course the truth is more nuanced.
|
| I first visited China in 1999, did a 6 month Chinese
| course at PKU in 2002, and lived/worked in Beijing from
| 2007-2016. Frankly, the political situation simply got
| worse from 2008 on, whereas before it really looked like
| China was opening up and would continue to do so.
| EastToWest wrote:
| > I found the greatest offenders of media that portrays
| China in a poor light are CCTV, xinhua, people's daily,
| etc... if you consume those media, you get the impression
| that China is a backwards authoritarian state with lots
| of flaws, but of course the truth is more nuanced.
|
| You're not their target audience, period.
|
| Also you're molded by Western culture, of course you
| interpret things differently with your own bias (in a
| neutral sense).
|
| On the flip side, a lot of Chinese find Western media
| chaotic, unruly and full of lies, which portray Western
| society in a poor light. And of course, the truth is more
| nuanced like you said.
| waihtis wrote:
| I think people on both sides of the border need to
| acknowledge the limited value of news; not only will it
| give you a severely distorted lens of reality, but more
| importantly it is borderline ignoramus behaviour to base
| your reality of something on news as a source.
| sebmellen wrote:
| I find your comments interesting because I've lived in
| Amsterdam for a significant period of time (as well as
| Switzerland, Germany, and Denmark), and I've intersected
| with a lot of people who probably have very similar life
| stories to you! I think the crowd I interact with is
| probably somewhat different though, because they're
| mostly crypto/blockchain people.
|
| While I have encountered a fair number of expats who
| moved to China and regularly visit NL/DE/CH, and rave
| about how _good_ things are in China, I 've also heard
| the opposite from Chinese friends who moved away.
|
| The issue _is_ very complex, and I don 't disagree that
| China is full of promise. I really would like China to
| succeed, and I think that co-operation is necessary to
| fix a lot of the problems that threaten us on a planetary
| and social scale (climate change, immigration, economics,
| etc.).
|
| However, I have a very strong distaste for the CCP and
| really would like to see them dismantled. For this
| reason, I doubt I will ever visit China, simply because
| I've been very publicly vocal in this position.
|
| I'd be interested to hear more from you -- I think civil
| discourse is very important. But I also don't have much
| tolerance for gaslighting, and sadly many pro-China/CCP
| actors have gotten very good at that.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| The thing is, I don't even consider myself particularly
| pro-CCP. But CCP is the _only_ party that actually
| advances the interests of Chinese civilization. All the
| other parties only care about destroying CCP, no matter
| the negative consequences to Chinese society. Also, half
| of the reasons people use to oppose the CCP, are either
| false, or based on twisted half-truths. When I see such
| unwarranted attacks, how can I not help but feel
| defensive? It 's my and my relatives' future that's at
| stake.
|
| I don't need everyone to become CCP fans. I'd already be
| happy if people can see CCP in a more realistic, nuanced
| manner, rather than a cartoon villain.
|
| > However, I have a very strong distaste for the CCP and
| really would like to see them dismantled. For this
| reason, I doubt I will ever visit China, simply because
| I've been very publicly vocal in this position.
|
| This reminds me of myself more than 10 years ago. Back
| then I had been indoctrinated by western media and
| western views of China for 15 years. China is bad, China
| is communism, China kills people, Mao killed millions,
| one child policy bad, etc. When at the airport and police
| stations I saw government workers with those typical hats
| on, an alarm bell goes off in my head: OMG communism!!!!
|
| But years later, I got married to my Chinese wife. I
| started having more interactions with Chinese people. I
| started researching Chinese recent history. I started
| researching Chinese society. I started talking to
| westerners actually living in China.
|
| And I found out that a lot of the stuff people here say
| about the CCP are twisted half-truths, either
| deliberately or based on misunderstandings due to
| different culture and values. The Chinese police, rather
| than brutal enforces, and actually very friendly, don't
| carry guns, and it's very common for people to quarrel
| with the police without suffering consequences. Try that
| in some western countries.
| sebmellen wrote:
| That's an interesting insight -- that the CCP is perhaps
| the best choice of many bad choices (the "lesser evil" as
| we say in the US). I do understand your perspective, but
| I respectfully disagree (though I do admit I don't know
| _that_ much about how China really works).
|
| Of course, China is a developed economy, and there is a
| lot of really impressive and legitimate industry in
| China. The hardware markets of Shenzen, the startups in
| Shanghai, the generally better-educated (than the US)
| populous. I want to make it clear that I don't hold a
| cartoonish "China bad" view, and I definitely don't see
| Chinese people as bad people -- I have a lot of them as
| friends -- nor even every member of the CCP as a bad
| person.
|
| But I think these "attacks" of China aren't that
| unwarranted. There is something really foul afoot in
| China, moreso than the US. Perhaps, if the US didn't have
| such a strong constitution and democratic backing, it
| would be doing worse things than China. But it isn't, and
| that's because of the setup of the US government.
|
| The things that really bother me about China are:
|
| 1. The invasion of Tibet (everyone seems to have
| forgotten about this)
|
| 2. The Uighur Genocide
|
| 3. Well-documented organ harvesting of political
| dissident groups like Falun Gong
|
| 4. The draconian social-credit system
|
| 5. The Great Firewall
|
| 6. Parts of the "Belt and Road" initiative, particularly
| landgrabs from poor African farmers
|
| There is very good evidence for each of these points, and
| the West doesn't have problems _like this_.
|
| I do see that the US has a lot wrong with it. I also see
| that Germany and Europe has a lot wrong with it. I also
| know that media perceptions are often wrong -- I'm half
| German and hold German citizenship, so I know how strange
| it is to fly between countries and see how distorted
| media perceptions are on either end.
|
| But China in its current incarnation is, to me, dangerous
| and scary, and also very promising. I hope we can patch
| up the past, but we can't do that by being blind to it.
| yorwba wrote:
| > I think these "attacks" of China aren't that
| unwarranted.
|
| The problem with "attacks" against China is not so much
| that they are unwarranted, but that, by the time they
| reach the Western public, they've gone through multiple
| layers of filtering, stripping them of relevant context.
| That can cause problems to appear either more widespread
| or more localized than they actually are.
|
| Case in point:
|
| > invasion of Tibet
|
| Missing context: the invasion of the whole rest of China,
| partially by means of brutal military campaigns (e.g.
| Changchun, Taiyuan), partially by local KMT-affiliated
| warlords realizing that the CCP had the upper hand and
| switching allegiance. Tibet was an example of the latter,
| with the lamas remaining in power until the Panchen Lama
| allied with the central government in a power struggle
| against the Dalai Lama, causing him to flee into exile.
|
| > Uighur Genocide
|
| Missing context: all non-Uighur people in China who are
| nonetheless subjected to "reeducation through labor",
| political indoctrination, birth control (more than 60%
| (!) of all Chinese women were sterilized to enforce the
| One Child Policy) and so on.
|
| > organ harvesting of political dissident groups like
| Falun Gong
|
| Missing context: organ harvesting from non-Falun Gong,
| non-dissident executed prisoners.
|
| > social-credit system
|
| Missing context: the implementation pretty much failed.
| The nationwide rollout was originally scheduled for 2020,
| but the current state is far from the original vision.
| Both in terms of social scores (only pilot projects in a
| few cities) and in terms of credit scoring (Private
| companies like Ant Financial preferring to use their data
| for their own internal credit scores instead of sharing
| with the central Baihang Credit). Ironically, Jack Ma
| claimed in his speech that his company's credit scoring
| was so good that they shouldn't be required to back their
| loans with as much capital, but the regulators didn't buy
| it.
|
| > Great Firewall
|
| Missing context: the large amount of cross-border
| communication that happens despite of it, both due to
| not-uncommom use of technical circumvention tools and due
| to some sites (e.g. https://edition.cnn.com/china ) not
| being blocked when you'd expect them to be.
|
| > the "Belt and Road" initiative
|
| Missing context: the large amount of "Belt and Road"
| projects which are not part of any coordinated
| initiative, but rather an uncoordinated outpouring of
| Chinese capital in search of higher profits.
|
| Of course the above is not a defense of China, but
| definitely a criticism of mainstream Western media
| discourse on China.
|
| And concerning
|
| > the West doesn't have problems _like this_.
|
| The West _did_ have problems like this, but a) waited
| them out (territories annexed a hundred years ago,
| minorities mostly assimilated, natural drop in birth
| rates) or b) adopted a different solution (organ
| harvesting from traffic deaths instead of prisoners,
| established credit scoring agencies, a political system
| that doesn 't totally collapse if information flows
| freely, impact assessments for infrastructure projects).
| Most likely, China will solve their problems in a similar
| way.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| Thanks for your perspective. I don't deny that China has
| many problems.
|
| But on the topic of _truth_ , some accusations against
| China are false. Are you willing to discuss them?
| sebmellen wrote:
| Surely! I sent you a message on Keybase.
| byw wrote:
| Sorry to go on a tangent, but gotta say, I'm impressed by
| the level of civility in the thread, and on this topic in
| particular. It's a rare sight in these troubled times.
|
| I am kinda interested in the reading the discussion
| further though. But of course if you feel more
| comfortable taking it private I'd understand.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| It's my goal to discuss civilly. But I'll have to find
| people who are willing to do that, rather than just
| wanting to push their views on others and denying that
| there are alternative legit points of view.
|
| If you're interested, we could discuss privately too.
| Consider this an invitation to contact me.
| Aunche wrote:
| >But it isn't, and that's because of the setup of the US
| government.
|
| It has though. For the majority of its existence America
| had continuously screwed over the Native Americans. In
| fact, one of the primary reasons for the American
| revolution was to allow colonists to settle on Native
| American land. It's only after the natives lost their
| will to fight when America decided to play nice with
| them. This is pretty much what happened to Tibet and no
| doubt is going to happen to Xinjiang.
| bigpumpkin wrote:
| I just want to say I support your views, which are obviously
| true to anyone remotely knowledgeable about China. Although
| that is apparently a rarity.
| murat124 wrote:
| You may love China but CCP is not China.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| You think that if the KMT had won, that China would have
| been better off? Do you have any idea how corrupt the KMT
| was? The CCP won for a reason.
|
| CCP _is_ mainland China. According to a poll by Harvard,
| who collected data over a 15 year period through anonymous
| in-person interviews, support for the central government
| has increased in this 15 year period. In 2016 (last year of
| the study), it was at an all-time high: 96% of respondents
| said they 're satisfied or very satisfied with the central
| government.
|
| That doesn't mean I "love the CCP". But is there any other
| party out there who actually advances the interests of
| Chinese civilization?
| echelon wrote:
| This is an important distinction.
|
| China is awesome. The CCP sucks.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| Anyone who is living in China, citizen or expat, is going to
| toe the party line (literally) since the consequences for not
| doing so these days can be severe.
|
| We've been through this before with other business people or
| defrocked public officials: Jack Ma is currently having a
| peaceful relaxing vacation at one of the party's many secure
| resorts (Chinese have memes too). Whether he comes out of
| this like Fan Binbin or not isn't anything we will know until
| it happens.
| FPGAhacker wrote:
| It's "toe the line."
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| Fixed.
| chrischen wrote:
| First, it's "toe the line."
|
| Second, you're essentially saying that if the other person
| lives in China it doesn't matter what they say. Think about
| that for a second, and also about whether or not it really
| matters where they live if you've put some critical thought
| into their arguments. Granted some of what he says is
| subjective, but for something like this that's all you can
| really get. But if you've already decided the enemy must be
| wrong then there's no point discussing anything.
|
| Third, the OP you were replying to said he lived in China,
| but according to his Twitter he's not living in China. So
| does that meet your standards of considering his opinions?
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| > Anyone who is living in China, citizen or expat
|
| Neither myself, nor Cyrus Janssen, are currently living in
| China. This is my genuine opinion, believe it or not.
| Nobody forces me, nobody pays me. I thought people are
| supposed to be "against the CCP but support the Chinese
| people". Is your support limited to Chinese people who are
| against the CCP? Why do you not reflect for a while on why
| someone like me, who has grown up with western culture and
| has independently investigated China, is not as anti-China
| as you are? Why is it hard to accept that maybe some of of
| core assumptions you have about China is wrong?
|
| And no, you don't go to jail for _not toeing the party
| line_. That 's not how it works. They _censor_ you if your
| views are stirring up social unrest or calling for
| overthrow. But they don 't force you to say things they
| want.
|
| At least, that's the case for average citizen. I suppose if
| you're a high-level business executive with many ties to
| the government, then things become more complex. But that's
| not very different from the west, is it? If you piss off a
| government customer, you won't be jailed, but do you think
| they'd be happy to continue doing business with you?
| sebmellen wrote:
| Just a note -- there is basically zero chance that Jeff
| Bezos would face any sort of governmental action if he
| "pissed off a guy in a government department," however
| influential that person may be. AWS just blocked Parler,
| and I'm sure our current president -- arguably the most
| powerful man on Earth (until tomorrow) -- was not very
| happy with that.
|
| We don't see Jeff Bezos in hiding for doing that, nor
| would he have to go into hiding for anything far less.
|
| I don't say this to accuse you (@dang trying not to
| flamewar) -- do you not see that this argument is a
| little disingenuous? If you don't, I'd love to hear your
| thinking on why.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| Well, I'd just have to respectfully disagree then. As
| someone who runs my own company, I know better than to
| pick a quarrel with my customers, even if I don't agree
| with those customers on a political or whatever level.
|
| It's not at all strange to have multiple factions in an
| organizations who are after multiple vendors, as tool for
| an internal power war. Maybe if I piss off the guy who
| chose me as vendor, then his rivals will use that fact
| against him.
|
| My point is, social relations are complex. Freedom of
| speech doesn't mean freedom from consequence.
| jolux wrote:
| >My point is, social relations are complex. Freedom of
| speech doesn't mean freedom from consequence.
|
| In general it does mean freedom from legal consequences
| and government interference, with few exceptions.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| Is that really good enough? Why is freedom from
| _government_ interference all you care about?
| jolux wrote:
| It's not all that I care about, but the government has a
| monopoly on the legitimate use of force. I have recourse
| to that force if another private entity harms me. Who do
| I have recourse to if the government harms me?
|
| I consider freedom of speech a baseline, and I think it's
| one of the only things the US Constitution got right.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| > And no, you don't go to jail for not toeing the party
| line. That's not how it works.
|
| No you don't. But you might find your work visa renewal
| denied. Things can get inconvenient really quickly, as a
| foreigner you don't want to be a grass mud horse while in
| China, river crab is the only way to go.
|
| > If you're Jeff Bezos and you piss off the guy in a
| government department...
|
| Then Jeff Bezos sues the government, which is exactly
| what happened.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| > No you don't. But you might find your work visa renewal
| denied.
|
| Daniel Dumbrill, a vlogger in China, literally criticized
| the Guangzhou government for its negligent behavior
| against African workers. I did the same. We did this more
| than a year ago and we're both still fine.
|
| > Then Jeff Bezos sues the government, which is exactly
| what happened.
|
| You missed the point. You can't sue the government into
| continuing to do business with you.
| perryizgr8 wrote:
| > You can't sue the government into continuing to do
| business with you.
|
| You can do that actually.
|
| https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/22/amazon-files-suit-
| protesting...
|
| https://www.onmsft.com/news/corrected-evaluation-flaw-
| may-fa...
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| Just because it doesn't happen to you doesn't mean it
| doesn't happen, or that it could happen. If you have a
| 60k/month job, you can't really take the risk that your
| visa won't be renewed.
|
| > You missed the point. You can't sue the government into
| continuing to do business with you.
|
| No, of course you can, and that is what Amazon is doing.
| ImprobableTruth wrote:
| For all I know most things I know about China could be wrong
| - I'm certain that a lot of it is (seeing our media
| uncritically reporting the Adrian Zenz stuff has been
| mindblowing), but how could I possibly know whether something
| is true when there is so much disinfo going around? Like,
| what gives you the confidence that you're not just being fed
| propaganda yourself?
| arcticbull wrote:
| So... where's multi-billionaire Xiao Jianhua? After being
| abducted from the Four Seasons in Hong Kong by the CCP, he
| popped up to explain he was seeking medical treatment on the
| mainland (haha) _three years ago_ , and nobody's heard from
| him since. Also laying low? Or do you think he's discovered a
| new love of mining rare earth minerals in Xinjiang?
|
| C'mon now, this isn't exactly some big exoneration one way or
| the other, is it? This happens from time to time. We both
| know there's a list of famous and semi-famous people as long
| as your arm you haven't heard from in a while.
|
| Where's Fan Bingbing? Where's the former head of Interpol,
| Meng Hongwei? [2] Think they too have discovered a sudden
| need for mainland medical treatment -- or do you think it's
| more likely they may have discovered a passion for mining
| minerals also?
|
| [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/31/world/asia/xiao-
| jianhua-c...
|
| [2] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-06/the-people-who-
| china-...
| [deleted]
| nickysielicki wrote:
| And where's Chen Qiushi -- or any of the other journalists
| who covered the draconian coronavirus measures taken in
| China, who suddenly disappeared a year ago?
| La1n wrote:
| https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-54277439
| ipiz0618 wrote:
| Also Gui Minhai, Chen Qiushi, the 12 HK residents,
| countless protestors...surely China has a tolerant
| government according to this guy.
| Ulrich2 wrote:
| Also, Dr. Shi Zhengli (Shi Zheng Li ) the famous Wuhan lab
| researcher has not seen for while, except for some "jack
| ma" style video interview.
| Aunche wrote:
| Fan Bingbing has made multiple public appearances.
| SkyMarshal wrote:
| Thanks for digging up that video.
|
| Telling that the Global Times (CPC-affiliated media) refers to
| him as the _" former executive chairman of #Alibaba"_, and that
| he's making the video from some _" rural teacher-themed social
| welfare event"_.
|
| This isn't what normally happens to billionaire corporate
| executives, unless they've been convicted of violating the law.
| sebmellen wrote:
| Good point -- the whole matter really is quite strange,
| whatever one believes about China/the CPC aside. It does seem
| there's an established pipeline for this sort of
| "deplatforming" that the CPC has gotten very adept at pushing
| high-status people through.
| dirtyid wrote:
| Kill the chicken to scare the monkey.
|
| It's less strange than time tested.
| Bombthecat wrote:
| Jesus, somehow, this looks terrifying.
| blackrock wrote:
| Yeah dude. The Chinese are so technologically advanced, that
| they built an AI robot that looks exactly like the real Jack
| Ma.
|
| The real Jack Ma is getting his kidneys harvested right now,
| because apparently, that's what the CCP does to their own
| citizens (according to western media).
|
| /s
| sebmellen wrote:
| They literally do harvest organs from their own citizens.
| That's not up for dispute. See
| https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-china-rights-
| idUS....
| Ballas wrote:
| That video looks strange to me - either it is a green screen or
| it has some compression artefacts that I have not seen before
| (or perhaps something else).
| nwotnagrom wrote:
| Check this link out. Its the video from the Global Times
| Twitter Feed.
|
| https://www.scmp.com/tech/big-tech/article/3118454/alibaba-f...
| sebmellen wrote:
| Thank you for that. The direct link to the tweet is https://t
| witter.com/globaltimesnews/status/13517514568277196.... That
| does appear to be the best quality video available.
|
| Looks like it could be some form of house arrest.
| eecc wrote:
| Most CEOs will read from a PR script at opening ceremonies for
| events and conferences. Apparently - as mentioned in the
| article and clarified in other comments here - it was a PR
| moment in a charitable event he's been doing for a while.
|
| No need to make it up to be more eerie than it is
| echelon wrote:
| This regime is no joke.
|
| We need to offer Hong Kong and Chinese citizens a fast and easy
| path to citizenship in the West.
|
| If we do not brain drain China, rehabilitate our manufacturing
| capability, and prevent the CCP's rise to global dominance,
| we'll all have our liberties threatened.
|
| It could start with an offer to Jack Ma. Offer for him to move
| to SF or Miami. Watch for the "ha, ha, no thanks", but see the
| impact it has on Chinese citizens. They're not stupid, and they
| know what's going on.
|
| Edit:
|
| 1. Brain drain. Adopt China's best, brightest, and most
| creative.
|
| 2. Culture war. Tell Disney it's time to stop being cozy and
| make a "Chernobyl" style film about Tiananmen, Uyghurs,
| Tibetans, et al.
|
| 3. Build up our global manufacture. Vietnam, India, Mexico,
| Africa, South America.
|
| 4. Build capacity domestically, especially for strategic needs.
| Build lots of factories on the border. Jobs programs. But also
| allow immigrant workers and provide a path to citizenship.
|
| 5. Commit to our strong allies in a trade pact. Europe, Japan,
| Korea...
|
| We can route out this evil. But we have to work hard. This is
| an existential crisis.
|
| The US and its allies should all be on board with this plan and
| commit to doing similarly.
| approxim8ion wrote:
| You're not proposing a plan to save the world here, what
| you're proposing is imperialism.
| La1n wrote:
| Yup, them saying
|
| >2. Culture war. Tell Disney it's time to stop being cozy
| and make a "Chernobyl" style film about Tiananmen, Uyghurs,
| Tibetans, et al.
|
| That's just straight up propaganda coming from a country
| that has plenty of bad stuff Disney could make movies from
| too.
| slumpt_ wrote:
| Documenting the atrocities of their government doesn't
| necessarily have to be propaganda.
|
| I would want the atrocities of the US documented all the
| same.
|
| Hold corrupt leadership accountable, always.
| hungryhobo wrote:
| that helps the chinese people how? i mean i see the benefit
| for americans, but how do you propose to get people in china
| to support this? if this view is commonly held by westerners
| then doesn't this just give the CCP more legitimacy?
| zhdc1 wrote:
| I generally stay out of speculation and fear mongering, but
| the fact that your comment has been repeatedly - and quickly
| - downvoted worries me.
|
| The CEO of a $600B global publicly traded company disappeared
| for several months. This does not explicitly mean that he was
| detained, but it should be a point of concern.
|
| Imagine the outcry if this happened to an American CEO with
| controversial political opinions (there are a lot of them, so
| take your pick).
| echelon wrote:
| > I generally stay out of speculation and fear mongering,
| but the fact that your comment has been repeatedly - and
| quickly - downvoted worries me.
|
| You should take a look at my post history, then. Any time I
| express concern over China I'm voted into oblivion.
|
| It's the same with Apple, but that I expect.
|
| Recently I think someone has taken to downvoting entirely
| innocuous posts I make from my post history. Sometimes I'll
| post replies to day-old threads and find myself downvoted
| within half an hour.
|
| You're about to be downvoted too, btw.
| sebmellen wrote:
| Just wanted to say I've seen you around HN and respect
| your principles on this front. Would love to get in
| touch, contact info is in my profile or I can send you a
| message if your profile Gmail is accurate.
| glenstein wrote:
| >Sometimes I'll post replies to day-old threads and find
| myself downvoted within half an hour.
|
| This has also been happening on Reddit threads where
| people post comments critical of China. Top level
| comments are critical, but then far down the thread, low
| visibility comments suddenly swing aggressively upward or
| downward by dozens of votes if they relate to China.
| Veen wrote:
| We (the UK) have already created a fast and easy path to
| citizenship for BNO citizens in Hong Kong. I don't think it's
| practical or desirable to do the same for the 1.4 billion
| citizens of the PRC though.
|
| https://www.gov.uk/government/news/home-secretary-
| announces-...
| system2 wrote:
| >easy path to citizenship in the West
|
| Since when the U.S. providing free citizenships to the
| countries in need of help?
| pelario wrote:
| Not saying I agree with parent, but:
|
| i) "The west" is much bigger than the US
|
| ii) Right of political asylum has been "a thing" for a long
| while, specially for people fleeing authoritarian regimes.
| swarnie_ wrote:
| A) Its not really a US problem, its a UK one.
|
| B) The US isn't exactly a hot ticket item at the moment.
| How many armed riots y'all had this year?
| PhantomGremlin wrote:
| _Since when the U.S. providing free citizenships to the
| countries in need of help?_
|
| Since its inception. It may not be immediately apparent,
| but immigration to the USA was routine in its history and
| is still very common now.
|
| For example in the late 1970s we accepted refugees from
| Vietnam:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_boat_people
|
| In the early 1980s we granted citizenship to illegal
| aliens: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Reform_an
| d_Control... and new President Biden wants to do it again.
|
| In the 1990s we allowed many Somalis to immigrate here:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_American
|
| There are countless more examples, old and recent.
| sebmellen wrote:
| The battle for science and research talent is probably the
| biggest silent battle that's ever gone on, and the general
| public is completely unaware.
|
| I really, really hope the new administration has someone who
| cranks up the "brain drain agenda" to 10. The only challenge
| is doing so without importing too many spies or covert actors
| -- and that's a REAL challenge. Perhaps it would be easier to
| aggressively brain-drain China's allies (not that there are
| any I can think of)...
|
| I was quite shocked that an opthamologist at a clinic I
| regularly visit resigned after being ousted as a member of
| the Thousand Talents Program, here in San Diego [0].
|
| [0]: https://timesofsandiego.com/education/2019/07/08/ucsd-
| doctor...
| peytn wrote:
| Yeah somebody just calls you up basically and talks about
| how they have this great company/opportunity and emphasizes
| that they have close ties to the local government.
| slickrick216 wrote:
| But it was alright, everything was alright, the struggle was
| finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big
| Brother.
| edgyquant wrote:
| Isn't it, "he loved the party?" Great line to end the story
| either way.
| sebmellen wrote:
| I don't know if Ma is quite at that point yet... Maybe
| they've put him through a short stint in Room 101.
| slickrick216 wrote:
| You know I was thinking the same it's more room 101 as well
| but the look in his eyes as pointed out by the parent
| comment.
| nickysielicki wrote:
| I don't think it matters that he's reading off of a script.
| Imagine Bezos in the same situation, do you honestly think he
| wouldn't delegate the responsibility of speechwriting to his
| team of publicists?
| JMTQp8lwXL wrote:
| If none of us heard from Bezos for months and the resurfacing
| video appeared to be him reading off a script, there would be
| questions. The optics would be off.
| tylerhou wrote:
| When was the last time you heard from Bezos in a public
| appearance?
| dan-robertson wrote:
| The optics are meant to be off. That he received some kind
| of detention and punishment by the ccp is meant to be
| obvious (but they cannot admit to it so it's just heavily
| implied)
| sebmellen wrote:
| Fair point, but his speech also seems forced, and the
| location is quite strange.
|
| If Bezos or Gates were to give an address like this, they'd
| have a great camera setup in their fancy home office with
| good lighting.
|
| For reference, take a look at Gates appearing on the Daily
| Show: https://youtube.com/watch?v=iyFT8qXcOrM.
|
| Ma looks the opposite here.
| 3327 wrote:
| What is up with the pen in his hand and his thumb movement?
| Any ideas?
| chrischen wrote:
| At this point you're just applying your cultural bias.
| sebmellen wrote:
| Curious how so?
| chrischen wrote:
| Assuming the standards of appearance for public figures
| are based on specific people from America of specific
| ethnic and cultural backgrounds.
|
| I mean if I video conferenced with you right now you'd
| probably speculate I've been coopted by Communist powers
| because simply because my background isn't up to your
| standards (it'd be of a water heater and radon pipes
| since I'm in the basement).
| howlgarnish wrote:
| With all due respect, you are presumably also not the
| multibillionaire CEO of one of the world's largest
| Internet companies.
|
| If I saw Zuck, Satya or Sundar do a video conference
| looking like they're chained to the radiator in
| somebody's basement, I'd also be kinda concerned. (At
| least for the latter two. Zuck, maybe not so much.)
| chrischen wrote:
| With all due respect if we judged people by their
| appearances we'd have discredited Paul Graham long ago
| for eschewing the traditional VC outfit.
|
| The OP's comments about the appearance of the video is
| completely irrelevant and merely serving to throw
| speculative shade. For what it's worth, something
| probably did happen but his choice of webcam + background
| probably has nothing to do with it, but rampant
| speculation and false information is how we lead to the
| capital riots.
|
| While the idea of gulags and "re-education camps" pervade
| Western perceptions of Chinese life, the reality is that
| conformity and centralized government is probably more
| dull than you think.
| sebmellen wrote:
| Ok, but I didn't say that because he's Chinese, rather
| because he's a person of power and a multi-billionaire,
| and I was comparing him to other such people (not
| specifically Americans).
| chrischen wrote:
| It may be unintentional, but you ultimately did end up
| comparing his appearance to the standard of two other
| people that happened not to be Chinese, but also using
| this as the premise for a theory of foul play. What if
| his appearance ends up having nothing to do with it? Then
| it ends up just being insulting, especially if culturally
| his appearance is considered normal.
| howlgarnish wrote:
| Compared to Jack Ma's usual public image (see below), a
| frumpy pullover and a dingy room does seem rather odd.
|
| https://duckduckgo.com/?q=jack+ma&iax=images&ia=images
| chrischen wrote:
| Yes but he was comparing to how Bezos and Musk appear.
|
| Everyone is not how they normally appear because of the
| pandemic, and Ma addresses the reason why he's just video
| taping himself in a room because of this. Stop armchair
| speculating.
| howlgarnish wrote:
| The odd outbreak aside (and Shijiazhuang is nowhere near
| Hangzhou), lockdowns are long over in China, there's no
| need for Ma to cower in a basement.
|
| That said, I actually agree with you that the "hurr durr
| CCP torture cell" comments are overblown. It's entirely
| plausible that he's keeping a low profile for a while, if
| likely in response to some rather heavy-handed advice.
| chrischen wrote:
| My problem is the OP is trying to insinuate things based
| off pure speculation, cultural bias, and irrelevant
| details. He may as well have said that there was an
| excess of red pixels in the video and that means it must
| be reflections off of communist symbolism in the room.
|
| So yes we are in agreement that the OP's comment is adds
| no substance to the conversation and is pure "hurr durr
| CCP torture cell" that just furthers the stereotypes of
| China.
| howlgarnish wrote:
| No, we're not in agreement on that. It's clear that Ma's
| dress & appearance in the video was distinctly at odds
| with his _own_ usual profile, no need for any stereotypes
| or comparisons to other people.
| chrischen wrote:
| Yes but he (OP) was specifically comparing to how Bezos
| and Musk appear and insinuating that someone from the
| Chinese culture must present themselves in the same way
| or there must be foul play.
|
| Just to clarify, I'm not really in a position to analyze
| the meaning behind his current attire and choice of
| background relative to his past, so I'll take your word
| on your analysis of that.
| dirtyid wrote:
| > distinctly at odds with his own usual profile
|
| This is a picture from today.
|
| https://x0.ifengimg.com/ucms/2021_04/C5A7B512BF72106A6497
| 177...
|
| Same event from 2019.
|
| https://static01.nyt.com/images/2019/09/10/world/10alibab
| a/m...
|
| He upgraded from sweatpants to khakis. I think people are
| over reading the situation. All the usual factors that
| gets someone disappeared is not present with Ma's current
| faux pas.
| raindropm wrote:
| It's about the status of people in the video and the
| general expectation of public of how they usually
| presented themselves. People of this caliber usually
| comes up with carefully craft image, along with good
| production. It's the same no matter where you live or
| born.
|
| The Bezos and Gates example is just that, and example of
| famous people that we familiar with and that's it.
|
| Chill man. Not everything is about race.
| chrischen wrote:
| Your assertion doesn't even apply in Western culture, let
| alone generalization across cultures you probably know
| nothing about.
|
| Most people would consider Elon to be eccentric, Paul
| Graham to not look like traditional VC, and these
| superficial aspects are frankly irrelevant. So why is it
| ok to use that to insinuate stereotypes and hand-wavy
| assertions of malfeasance.
|
| Perhaps for you there is no consequence, but much like
| calling the coronavirus the "China virus", you're doing
| cultural damage by spreading negative stereotypes via
| fabricated or insinuated purely speculative assertions.
| The stereotype here is that China is associated with as
| some dystopian backwards society that has done no favors
| for its citizenry, which may or may not be true, but is
| definitely not defended by any objective evidence
| presented by the OP.
|
| To flip the scenario, imagine if some random people from
| China commented about how the US elections seems like
| there was rampant fraud, without much supporting
| evidence. By lending credence to something without any
| concrete evidence you give it some air of legitimacy.
| When you do so by purely speculating on non-important
| things you've entered the realm of purely pushing an
| agenda with no substance.
| arcticfox wrote:
| > The stereotype here is that China is associated with as
| some dystopian backwards society that has done no favors
| for its citizenry
|
| I think people are mostly just trying to figure out what
| is going on with one of the richest/most powerful people
| in the world. There's not a lot of evidence to go on, so
| any scrap is potentially relevant. In your view, what are
| the best theories for his behavior?
|
| And this isn't just an academic or social exercise;
| Alibaba jumped billions due to this appearance.
| chrischen wrote:
| OP is taking scraps and extrapolating completely out of
| proportion. I am simply pointing out his extrapolation is
| out of proportion. Just because there is a lack of info
| doesn't mean you should make up random things and give
| them credence.
| nickysielicki wrote:
| Like all real Americans, I hate all forms of communism and
| socialism, and I especially hate the evil Chinese communist
| party and their concentration camps, so I agree with your
| skeptical spirit.
|
| It's not that I think the CCP wouldn't take him out if they
| could, it's that I don't think the CCP can politically
| afford to take out a widely popular multi-billionaire.
| spython wrote:
| Also, look at his hands while he's talking. Doesn't seem
| like the hand gestures of a person feeling safe and
| confident in the moment of filming.
| duxup wrote:
| If Ma wanted to reappear and reassure people, not sure this would
| be his first choice, method, etc.
|
| It seems weirder to just pop up like this like nothing has been
| going on.
| dirtyid wrote:
| It's part of Jack Ma Foundation's annual Rural Educators Award.
| A few more pictures: https://tech.ifeng.com/c/83BS98wwWV9
|
| Here's one from 2020.
| http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-01/07/c_138685262.htm
|
| Old UN article.
| https://www.un.org/sustainabledevelopment/blog/2016/08/jack-...
| duxup wrote:
| The article mentions that.
| dirtyid wrote:
| Then it shouldn't be that weird, Ma overstepped with his
| speech and is carefully negotiating the minefield he's
| currently in. Alibaba stock rebounded ~5% since his
| showing. He'll slowly work his way back into public life as
| is customary for nature of his infraction. If CCP wanted to
| disappear him long term, there'd be predictable and
| fraud/corruption charges already laid.
| duxup wrote:
| The situation is weird regardless of the existence of a
| charity.
| LegitShady wrote:
| The situation is normal for totalitarianism.
| duxup wrote:
| I don't doubt it.
| [deleted]
| thesausageking wrote:
| This how politics work in China. When the government is unhappy
| with someone, they go away for a while and often reappear at a
| completely unrelated event they had schedule long before and
| don't acknowledge their disappearance. Everything happens
| behind the scenes and never officially.
|
| If they ever acknowledge it, it will be as a public apology for
| their past conduct. This is what Ma's protege Justin Sun did
| after he got into hot water with the Chinese government for
| promoting his crypto currency project too loudly:
|
| https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tron-crypto-founder-justin-su...
| akfanta wrote:
| > like nothing has been going on
|
| Because nothing happened. So many westerners are so brainwashed
| on any China related topics that conspiracy theories are
| accepted as fact without any sort of filtering. If you think
| CCP is going to make the richest man(a popular public figure no
| less) in China disappear overnight, you ate way too much
| propaganda.
| karmasimida wrote:
| So HN is now the hot bed for aspiring conspiracists? If applying
| Occam's Razor, maybe the most likely guess is ... he is not
| jailed?
| danpalmer wrote:
| One could also apply this the other way around - when the
| "disappearance" started getting news coverage, why not just pop
| up to say hi? Did he really miss all that news coverage about
| his own disappearance? Occam's razor might suggest there's a
| reason why he didn't.
|
| My guess, applying this both ways, is that he's been ill or
| having some treatment or been in hospital, and that perhaps if
| it was bad, the calculation came out that disappearance rumours
| were better than "Jack Ma on his death bed" stories.
| dang wrote:
| All: this thread quickly degenerated into a hellish flamewar.
| Please don't post nationalistic flamewar comments to HN, and do
| not post cheap internet insinuations about astroturfing,
| brigading, shilling, spying, foreign agents and communist party
| operatives. If you're worried about abuse, you're welcome to
| email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data. You're not
| welcome to fill HN threads with fervid imaginations about
| commenters who have different views than you. HN is a big place
| and that's the very simple explanation for why not everyone
| agrees. I've posted about this many times, both about
| astroturfing in general and Chinese topics in particular:
|
| https://hn.algolia.com/?query=astroturf%20by:dang&sort=byDat...
|
| https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
|
| There have been ugly mob behaviors on this site in the past,
| which have hounded people out of the community. Is that who you
| want to be? who we want to be? No it is not. Yet it happens all
| too easily, and the people doing it don't even realize that
| they're doing it--they just think they're righteously defending
| truth or freedom or the home team. If you don't want to be that
| way, then err on the side of respect, benefit of the doubt, and
| not jumping to predetermined conclusions. (If you do want to be
| that way, please find some other site to post to.)
|
| We ban accounts that break these rules, so please read
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and use HN as
| intended. It has a very specific intended spirit and most of the
| people who've posted in this thread so far have been breaking it.
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| So he only had one public event scheduled between late October
| and now? If he suddenly ended up in custody, you'd think he would
| have had more events set up then canceled.
| ConcreteGidget wrote:
| Does anyone have any book recommendations for non-chinese people
| to understand CCP power structures? I'm completely lost in all of
| this Jack Ma stuff.
| marekmroz wrote:
| If you like fiction and satire, China Dream by Ma Jiang is
| good.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| I heard that The Governance of China is a good book.
| https://www.amazon.com/Xi-Jinping-Governance-English-Languag...
|
| Another book that may help is "Has China Won?" by Kishore
| Mahbubani.
| rodolphoarruda wrote:
| Not strictly related to CCP, but a long text about how China
| has evolved in the past couple of decades from a cultural
| perspective.
|
| https://lithub.com/modern-china-is-so-crazy-it-needs-a-new-l...
| bane wrote:
| The Chinese government is highly structured and in general
| features most of the things one might expect in a modern
| nation-state (an executive, a legislature, a court system,
| etc.)
|
| The exception, and what makes it hard to understand for
| outsiders, is that one of the political parties (Chinese
| Communist Party) is also an extra, supervisory, branch of
| government and sits on-top of and permeates all the regular
| bureaucratic structures. There are other political parties but
| since they cannot surmount the CCP in this structure they
| remain relegated to very minor roles. The military (PLA) is
| also a branch of government, but is _also_ an element of the
| CCP. One way of thinking of it is that the government of China
| is not allowed to have a military, and the ruling political
| party 's own security forces have assumed that role -- with
| subbranches of that force filling in for traditional military
| branches such as a Navy and an Air Force - which are all
| separate "forces" under the Army.
|
| Within the CCP there are factions, or different wings, and the
| kinds of fairly expected politics in any such organization play
| out as people jostle for position within the party. These
| factions can have a number of quite profound disagreements, and
| may sound more like different parties in some ways, but are
| united by common core beliefs and history.
|
| This structure creates as many problems as it solves, with no
| _external_ checks to the current CCP policies - but there are
| internal processes and checks that are supposed to help
| maintain legitimacy of the party in this structure. On the flip
| side, establishing such a system also makes it easier to
| consolidate power over the major power structures. The current
| head of China, Xi Jinping, is the head of the party, the head
| of the executive branch and the head of the military, giving
| _him_ no real outside checks on authority as he has both the
| supervisory power and the military power to overwhelm
| opposition - the presidency is more or a ceremonial role within
| the government at this point.
|
| However, there are analogues, the U.S. President, for example,
| is also the head of their respective party, the head of the
| executive branch, and the head of the military. The difference
| is that there are built in exit ramps and external checks on
| power (other parties, other branches of government) that are
| designed to frustrate the accumulation of power and political
| parties hold no official and a subservient role to the
| government apparatus. The military in addition, is not a branch
| of government whereas it is in the Chinese system.
| starfallg wrote:
| >One way of thinking of it is that the government of China is
| not allowed to have a military, and the ruling political
| party's own security forces have assumed that role -- with
| subbranches of that force filling in for traditional military
| branches such as a Navy and an Air Force - which are all
| separate "forces" under the Army.
|
| This is very similar in concept to the SA/SS (Nazi Germany)
| or the Red Army (USSR). All were paramilitary wings of
| political parties before their rise to power.
| kqr wrote:
| Since you did not mention it specifically, I'll mention that
| term limits are suspected to be an important part of keeping
| a reasonable concentration of power and not having a
| democracy devolve into a dictatorship.
|
| On the one hand, term limits are deliberately eroded by long-
| running despots (primarily in some African countries so far,
| and increasingly elsewhere in the world lately.) On the other
| hand, Germany's chansellorship does not, IIRC, have term
| limits and that seems to work fine for them. So maybe being
| able to remove term limits is a symptom more than a cause?
|
| Either way, questions like these are discussed in the book
| How Democracies Die, which has been recommended to me and is
| on my re-read list, but which I haven't gotten to yet.
| wuschel wrote:
| > On the other hand, Germany's chansellorship does not
| [...] habe term limits
|
| In fact, there is a limit: A German citizen might hold the
| office of Chancellor ("Kanzler", or "Kanzlerin" for female
| form) four times, or sixteen years in total.
| TheCoelacanth wrote:
| I suspect that term limits are less important with a
| parliamentary system since the head is typically somewhat
| less powerful than a president.
| kqr wrote:
| Contributing factors also include, I suspect, more
| independence for individual subdivisions, e.g. states in
| the US or Bundeslander in Germany unless I'm mistaken.
| takinola wrote:
| How did this evolve? I can't think of too many places where a
| party, rather than an individual, is elevated over the state.
| ConcreteGidget wrote:
| I think this is more the rule than the exception. The idea
| that states exist to serve the individual would be laughed
| at for most of human history. Be it God or the state, man
| exists to serve. Conscripting and killing young men for the
| sake of the state/God/glory has been one of humanities
| favorite pastimes.
| RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote:
| > with subbranches of that force filling in for traditional
| military branches such as a Navy and an Air Force - which are
| all separate "forces" under the Army.
|
| The Chinese Navy is called "People's Liberation Army Navy"
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_Liberation_Army_Navy
| dotancohen wrote:
| > One way of thinking of it is that the government of China
| is > not allowed to have a military, and the ruling
| political > party's own security forces have assumed
| that role
|
| Not dissimilar to the Lebanese situation in practice, then?
| xiphias2 wrote:
| Most of what you described is generally true for
| autrocracies. The real interesting part of China is that
| usually autrocracies perform poorly as the leaders put power
| in front of technological advancement.
|
| Chinese leaders though try really hard to allow tech
| advancements to happen, and perform quite well on the market.
| dmix wrote:
| Surprised no one has mentioned "Red Capitalism (2012)" which
| specifically covers the finance industry in China (pre-AliPay
| but post reform in the modern era) which gives a clear insight
| into the sort of banking system Ma tried to shake up and their
| big role in China's rise.
|
| https://www.amazon.com/Red-Capitalism-Financial-Foundation-E...
|
| The author is an excellent China Watcher who works at an
| Australian think tank and basically covers this topic for a
| living.
|
| His blog post on the matter is a good starting point, which was
| before the IPO was cancelled, and many before that were
| prescient.
|
| https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/many-trails-an...
| permarad wrote:
| The problem of China - Bertrand Russell. Published in 1922.
| It's not recent but is an incredible insight for the era and
| forward thinking piece. It is incredibly relevant today.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| A book from 1922? That's back during the Republican era, pre-
| civil war. I think any resource from before 30 years ago is
| totally irrelevant in today's setting, except maybe to
| explain how Chinese modern history developed.
| [deleted]
| simonh wrote:
| It's shocking how accurate his predictions were, and I
| think it's really important to understand that these
| weren't lucky guesses. They were the product of a deep and
| insightful analysis of Chinese culture and society that is
| still very much relevant today. The personalities have
| changed, but in many ways China is still China.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| Do you have an example of something that you think was a
| very good prediction that has panned out?
| simonh wrote:
| He warned that their society is prone to endemic
| corruption, that merging the worst aspects of Chinese
| culture with Capitalism would be a very dangerous
| combination. He said that China could become an economic
| and military rival only exceeded by the united States
| over the next few centuries, so he was explicitly
| thinking long term. This was at a time when most
| Westerners thought of China as an archaic, irrelevant
| joke.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| Oh man, maybe you're right.
|
| I scrolled to a random section and I read:
|
| "In fact, [the west] have quite as much to learn from
| [China] as they from us, but there is far less chance of
| our learning it."
|
| "[There's] a great eagerness to acquire Western learning,
| not simply in order to acquire national strength and be
| able to resist Western aggression, but because a very
| large number of people consider learning a good thing in
| itself"
|
| Nothing has changed in 100 years...
| thu2111 wrote:
| But is there something _specific_ to Chinese culture that
| he argued made them more corrupt? Because it seems to me
| like basically all poor countries are corrupt, that they
| tend to get less corrupt as they get richer (or rather,
| they get richer as they get less corrupt) and China in
| 1922 was very poor indeed.
| simonh wrote:
| Honestly it's very hard to tell. It's quite short. My
| wife is Chinese and I've spent a bit of time over there.
| It's hard for me to tell which aspects of cultural
| behaviour over there are a product of several generations
| of communist rule and which date back earlier. What I can
| say is the business environment over there is bare naked
| ruthless. It's always possible to make a deal, right up
| to the moment it isn't and then you're done. As for
| social order, the Chinese believe in the rule of
| authority, not law.
| karmasimida wrote:
| How do you know it is relevant?
|
| TBH like most westerners, most Chinese don't even understand
| how CCP works. I surely won't trust a book written in 1922.
| cbozeman wrote:
| > I surely won't trust a book written in 1922.
|
| It works because a large part of it is based not just on
| Chinese culture, but on human nature.
|
| Its the reason that the Ten Commandments are still relevant
| today, because as Paul Mooney said, "It puts its foot in
| man's ass", or in other words, because many of the stories
| in the Bible were written by people with an understanding
| of human nature.
|
| The same reason so much of the Constitution of the United
| States of America still works. Its written to humanity's
| nature, not current events of 1776.
| ovi256 wrote:
| > most Chinese don't even understand how CCP works
|
| That's on purpose, the first test of getting power to work
| for you is an intelligence and ambition check: can you
| focus enough ability for long enough to sniff out where the
| networks of power are ?
| idownvoted wrote:
| ,,China in ten words" by Yu Hua, of course banned in China
|
| ,,The awakening of China" - by Sun Yat Sen. Old but informative
| least but not last becauseit was the only book heralded by both
| Chinas (PRC and Taiwan) and even allowed during Mao's heydays
| of Terror (in which the official amount of allowed books was in
| the single digits, and most of those were authored by Mao).
| toiletfuneral wrote:
| you should mention that Mao is also responsible for the
| largest & most successful literacy program in history.
|
| Also, the west still does this shit but I know HN doesn't
| care about these types of incidents happening on the right
|
| https://arktimes.com/arkansas-blog/2017/03/02/bill-
| introduce...
| wllchng wrote:
| The Party: The Secret World of China's Communist Rulers (2012)
| loceng wrote:
| I wonder if the 2021 version would have much different; were
| there known "re-education" camps then, etc?
| pototo666 wrote:
| It is definitely different.
|
| Back in 2012 the party is controled by a group of elder
| guys, though there is someone at the top.
|
| Now it is dictated by Xi, who has already changed many
| things, like Chairman should only serve two terms. Luckily,
| he has no son.
| yorwba wrote:
| Yes. For example, here's a commentary, published in 2012 by
| Xinhua, arguing that the time was ripe to reform the
| "reeducation through labor" system
| http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2012-10-12/152725346359.shtml (in
| Chinese, of course)
|
| The reform did happen, replacing e.g. labor camps for drug
| addicts by forced detox camps, but those were mostly the
| same, still using hard labor as their main method to
| "rehabilitate" addicts. So not much changed in practice.
| https://madeinchinajournal.com/2019/10/25/punish-and-
| cure%ef... (this one is in English)
|
| You may wonder why you haven't heard about this before. The
| answer is, I think, that most groups subjected to
| "reeducation through labor" are not organized and scarcely
| have any international contacts, so they have a hard time
| getting mainstream international media to report on them.
| secretcombos wrote:
| Deceiving the Sky: Inside Communist China's Drive for Global
| Supremacy (2019) by Bill Gertz is an excellent starting point:
| https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/50927537-deceiving-the-s...
| prox wrote:
| I wonder why you're being downvoted. Is it because it's so
| accurate that it hurts or because it's not?
| dagw wrote:
| Bill Gertz (the Author) is a very divisive figure in US
| politics, with a long history of anti China bias. His
| writings are much more polemic screeds and less balanced
| academic analysis. He sees the US-China situation very much
| as battle between good and evil (with the Democrats being
| complicit on the side of evil), has zero nuance and very
| little sourcing in his books. All of this makes his books
| rather controversial.
|
| All that being said. None of this is evidence for his books
| actually being wrong.
| dang wrote:
| Please don't break the site guidelines like this.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| dvfjsdhgfv wrote:
| Dang, I honestly think it's a fair question. And it
| crossed my mind, too, when I read the post it refers to.
| dang wrote:
| Actually I think I misread the comment:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25849052.
| Razengan wrote:
| How appropriate, people being told to shut up on a post
| about people being made to shut up.
|
| Dammit dang, downvote abuse is a real issue.
|
| The very fact that people keep bringing this up should
| clue you in. Once or twice, okay maybe it's the
| complainer's perception that's wrong, but again and
| again, for over a year? Then your damn system has a
| problem.
|
| The least you could do to address it is not let downvotes
| instantly affect a comment's visibility. Fucking delay it
| for a few hours to allow everyone at least a chance to be
| seen.
|
| Why is that so painfully hard for you to do? Did you lose
| the source code or can't find another Malbolge maintainer
| to take over?
| crististm wrote:
| This is not a one year problem. And it will stay that way
| because, as you know, HN is a corporation. Not a public
| forum.
|
| Maintaining these rules allow dang@co to maintain the
| position of control over what happen in HN. The corollary
| is that changing them will dilute their control. They
| found a local maximum of discourse level and they keep it
| that way.
|
| The justification that the discourse on HN is maintained
| at a high level by not talking about the rules is at
| least condescending to the participants.
|
| It doesn't matter to them if they lose you on these
| grounds since talking about the rules appears only on
| extremes which are shallow in a normal distribution. They
| will lose the few participants that care enough about
| that while maintaining those in the middle. (Of course,
| cutting of the extremes will grow newer ones in the empty
| space but I digress...).
|
| What happens with time is that people adjust their
| discourse to the middle ground making it void of any new
| or interesting information. Thus, HN becomes an echo
| chamber of mainstream ideas and people will leave when
| they got bored enough of the same thing. We're already
| there and @dang is more vocal now because he knows it.
| dvfjsdhgfv wrote:
| I only partly agree with your view. It might be so, but
| there is a genuine reason behind not discussing the
| rules: they're always off-topic. For people like me who
| come to HN to read an interesting discussion about tech
| issues, anything mentioning downvoting is almost
| automatically useless in the sense that it doesn't bring
| any new information, it's not interesting, it doesn't
| affect me in any way.
|
| Yes, if I were in charge of HN I would solve certain
| issues differently, and so would you, but it's a private
| forum run by someone else, so we have to obey in order to
| participate, whether we like it or not. The very fact
| that we're even having this discussion now means we
| prefer this place to any other in this moment. So you
| can't say these rules don't work.
| [deleted]
| mistermann wrote:
| Overton Window _201_
|
| Moloch is always and everywhere.
| Daho0n wrote:
| >Dammit dang, downvote abuse is a real issue.
|
| Maybe maybe not, but clearly not in this case. It was
| troll-ish and looking for a fight. Just like your own:
|
| >How appropriate, people being told to shut up on a post
| about people being made to shut up.
|
| Would you talk to your mother that way? It isn't
| respectful and it doesn't add anything to the discussion.
|
| >Why is that so painfully hard for you to do? Did you
| lose the source code or can't find another Malbolge
| maintainer to take over?
|
| I rest my case.
| prox wrote:
| Ah sorry dang! Will take heed in future.
| dang wrote:
| Actually I think I read the second sentence as a snarky
| political jibe, when on a closer look it seems to have
| been a neutral question, or at least that's a plausible
| interpretation.
|
| "So accurate that it hurts" is the sort of thing that
| political trolls say, and it probably triggered the
| pattern matching machine in my head--which sometimes
| misses things, especially at speed. Sorry!
| prox wrote:
| Yes it was meant as an inquiry, but I could have phrased
| it differently, looking back and after your moderation
| comments.
| loceng wrote:
| Honestly though, don't you think that's a valid question
| - asking for qualitative responses? Notice how the user
| responded to you, as an authority, I hope you're aware of
| that power dynamic as well.
|
| I've also thought I'd love to see a Netflix style
| documentary of "a day in dang's life" to help us get to
| know you, to humanize you more + would be good marketing
| for HN and YCombinator. You're often very poetic in your
| responses, I think a documentary focused on you could be
| quite good.
| Razengan wrote:
| > _Notice how the user responded to you, as an authority,
| I hope you 're aware of that power dynamic as well._
|
| Dang is the Benevolent Leader. How dare someone insinuate
| that there could be any problems in a utopia run by such
| a perfect mind. Everything is Working as Intended. Move
| along.
| saagarjha wrote:
| Perhaps you may enjoy
| https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-silicon-
| valley/th....
| loufe wrote:
| Well written article, I learned a lot. I wasn't a huge
| fan of how little they espoused the actual positive side
| of the site, what continues to bring me and many of you
| back. The flaming and dramatic views of some are noise to
| me, the great insight and lively polite debate is what I
| see.
| loceng wrote:
| Thanks! Actually I had read part of it but never got back
| to it. Now on my to-do.
| foolinaround wrote:
| Dang, should there be a single meta-thread - monthly or
| quarterly -- where you hold a grand durbar and folks can
| vent their grievances, and you get some feedback from
| different segments?
| dang wrote:
| People aren't shy about posting their grievances. Having
| a dedicated thread for that would just breed more of
| them.
| foolinaround wrote:
| thanks for replying!
|
| If we were to have a seperate thread, then folks should
| absolutely not post these things in regular threads, thus
| leaving them cleaner and with a better tone.
|
| they are free to reference this incident on the grievance
| thread. There, different downvote rules should apply of
| course.
|
| There might be others who feel the same way, and
| therefore might upvote it. So, this way, you can get a
| sense of how many/deeply feel about a particular issue,
| and then address it suitably.
|
| Once this particular case is addressed, then we create a
| link of sorts, and the next month someone brings this up,
| we just point to it.
|
| I am thinking - maybe once a quarter -- to start with,
| and vary frequency as needed.
| dang wrote:
| I understand the appeal, but users wouldn't abide by such
| a restriction on normal threads. The more one tried to
| force it, the more energy one would create to get around
| it or overcome it.
|
| It would be a lost cause because it goes against human
| nature. People feel what they feel when they feel it; you
| can't stop them from expressing it, and trying to do so
| would only multiply it.
| foolinaround wrote:
| ok, got it.
| [deleted]
| austhrow743 wrote:
| Not a book but a talk given at an internal government seminar
| by a China policy advisor to the Australian government and
| recommended by Bill Bishop, one of the bigger names in China
| related news. Talk given in 2017.
|
| https://sinocism.com/p/engineers-of-the-soul-ideology-in
| Symmetry wrote:
| Age of Ambition for how people outside navigate it. How China
| Escaped the Poverty Trap has some very good stuff on incentive
| structures inside the CCP.
| m3kw9 wrote:
| Was his face bruised?
| oars wrote:
| I would love to see Facebook and Amazon researchers join forces
| and try to figure out whether this is a deepfake or not.
|
| https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/machine-learning/facebook-uses-...
| themodelplumber wrote:
| During the video he keeps blinking 'e' in morse code. If real,
| he could be trying to communicate that he's hungry? E :-)
| paxys wrote:
| It doesn't have to be a deepfake. It isn't hard to compel
| someone in captivity to record a 50 second video.
| angry-tempest wrote:
| At that point, why not get an actor and use a ton of make up
| to cover the imperfections?
| sradman wrote:
| > Alibaba's Hong Kong-listed shares jumped to finish 8.5% higher
| on the news
|
| Together with the geopolitics surrounding the COVID-19 pandemic,
| the public disappearance [1] of Jack Ma may turn out to be a key
| turning point for the modern Chinese state.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ma#Public_disappearance
| guerrilla wrote:
| Disappointingly paranoid comments jumping to conclusions here.
| It's equally possible that Ma's disappearance is self-imposed
| after making an out of character speech that was not well
| received by investors and regulators alike. We don't know either
| way at this point. To quote Leo Lewis of the FT: "His
| miscalculation now looks spectacular, even by his astral
| standards of showmanship." [1]
|
| 1.
| https://www.ft.com/content/b3a94f55-5e44-417f-a869-a542d0527...
| echelon wrote:
| Total bullshit.
|
| This is the CCP stepping on this man's throat.
| guerrilla wrote:
| It's certainly possible but the fact is that there's no
| evidence or indication one way or the other at this point.
| netsharc wrote:
| Lately the close-mindedness in HN has become amazing...
| many here seems to be a China expert, and their expertise
| says "I know what it is, it's an evil regime!".
| slumpt_ wrote:
| Given their treatment of Uighurs, yes - there is an
| element of evil. It's not as if the governments of the
| world are immune to this - the US has been involved in a
| long history of heinous acts and China is no different.
| netsharc wrote:
| Yes, they're running terrible concentration camps.. but
| for some HNer to be able to say "I can see from this
| video that Jack Ma was imprisoned and is being forced by
| the CCP to do this"? Great job being an expert!
|
| How about some political nuance? Maybe they wouldn't dare
| just mess with a billionaire who was well respected just
| a few months ago? Well, maybe they do dare, I don't know,
| I'm not an expert in Chinese politics. But some
| commenters here seem to take one little thing they know
| and extrapolate it to absolute knowledge of how that
| government works in all aspects.
| yadongwen wrote:
| You certainly don't understand Di Diao and Men Sheng Zhuan
| Da Qian . Ma learnt and adapted.
| anothernewdude wrote:
| I mean, that's really the problem right there.
| hawkice wrote:
| "Learning and adapting to the Chinese system" and "the
| Chinese government is using constant terrifying threats to
| coerce public support" are not, in fact, mutually
| exclusive.
| al3xandre wrote:
| If I was holding Jack Ma in captivity, I would definitely ask him
| to do this just for the benefits of doing insider trading on his
| appearances
| coldtea wrote:
| If you had the power to hold Jack Ma in captivity, you'd have
| 1000 other ways to do insider trading, or even bigger access to
| the market...
| TameAntelope wrote:
| Anyone with a gun can hold anyone else, you don't need to be
| "powerful".
| coldtea wrote:
| If the "anyone else" is a billionaire, then, yes, you do,
| even to get access to them to point the gun, bypass the
| guards, abduct them, and keep them.
|
| And we're talking about state-level actors here doing the
| holding, not some random nobody with a gun. Those don't
| have any need for "insider trading".
| TameAntelope wrote:
| You're talking about state-level actors, not me. My point
| is that it doesn't have to be the Chinese government
| (though it probably is, if he's being held and isn't just
| in hiding).
| xdavidliu wrote:
| This is certainly not true if the "anyone else" is Jack Ma.
| If I gave you gun, and asked you to "hold" Jeff Bezos, you
| would certainly not be able to do it.
| TameAntelope wrote:
| Where am I? Where is Bezos? What are the additional
| hypothetical details of this scenario? Do I know how to
| use a gun in this scenario (I do not IRL)?
|
| I've only met one billionaire, but he was definitely not
| guarded by anyone, and had I the inclination, skills, and
| firepower, I could have easily taken him at gunpoint.
|
| I don't accept the notion that Jack Ma is guarded 100% of
| the time, that's movie fiction.
| [deleted]
| eloff wrote:
| Many billionaires, famous people, and ex-leaders of
| countries have bodyguards when they go out in public.
| Bezos has bodyguards.
|
| Some billionaires are relatively unknown, so maybe they
| get away without needing that.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| In the last Hacker News thread, people were so sure that the
| government jailed him for criticizing the party. Even though
| there was no evidence of such, people just assumed it MUST be
| true because the CCP MUST be evil.
|
| And before Jack Ma "disappeared", people were worried about Jack
| Ma and Ant Group being a national security threat, because of his
| ties with CCP. Because "CCP evil". No matter the facts, people
| just conveniently change their interpretation to shoehorn
| everything in a nonsensical "see, CCP is evil" narrative.
|
| I think it's time to accept that most people have a SERIOUSLY
| deranged and inaccurate view of China, and that things in China
| are far more complex and nuanced than people give it credit for.
| I say this as someone who's born in China, and have a Chinese
| wife, and family in China. Maybe there's an alternative point of
| view than "CCP is evil" that is at least just as valid.
|
| So it turns out he was just laying low after all. Yes his
| comments were not appreciated, but that doesn't mean they jail
| anyone for the slightest criticism. The reason why his comments
| upset people is because China, after having experienced a huge
| boom in material wealth in the 2000s, which accompanied mass
| government corruption and increase in inequality, China is now in
| a phase with more focus on equality and sharing the wealth.
| Jack's criticism hit a nerve because it came over as a rich man
| trying to change society for his own benefit, rather than lifting
| society with him.
|
| See Cyrus Janssen's blog post about this:
| https://cyrusjanssen.substack.com/p/trump-free-speech-and-wh...
| Cyrus is an expat who has worked in China for 12 years.
|
| Does China have problems? Of course it does. But that doesn't
| mean we need to villify it at every turn, and interpret
| everything in the worst possible manner in the absence of
| evidence.
|
| When the west better understands China, and when the west and
| China come together, the whole world wins.
| throwaway88098 wrote:
| This is the best answer I've seen. HN however is not a place
| for unpopular (and true) insights. It'll be downvoted to
| oblivion.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| I know. But I'm way past the point of being scared of that,
| or even caring. As a Chinese person I was scared of being
| lynched by the mob for speaking up (ironic isn't it, this is
| the so-called "free society" but apparently it only applies
| when you agree with the mob), but now I just think the truth
| must come out, and someone must push back against this
| insane, evidence-free anti-China hysteria.
|
| Notice that I'm not even saying "CCP good". I just say "it's
| nuanced and complex, there are alternative points of view".
| Which is what most things in reality are. But when it comes
| to China, people will only allow simplifiying it to a cartoon
| villain.
| sunstone wrote:
| The issue with China is not China specific or CCP specific,
| the issue is Xi and how he's clearly playing directly from
| Putin's playbook to the detriment of world stability.
| kristofferR wrote:
| China does play the part of cartoon villain perfectly
| themselves.
| JMTQp8lwXL wrote:
| > people just assumed it MUST be true because the CCP MUST be
| evil.
|
| Whether or not assertions about Ma's whereabouts are true or
| false, the conclusion holds in either case. The predicate for
| westerners is largely, yes, the CCP is evil. But most aren't so
| reductionist as to say, that means {random bad thing} happened
| to Ma.
|
| Intentional or not, the phrasing reads like a defense of the
| CCP -- because regardless of the CCP's actions towards Ma, the
| CCP has historically gone through with some internationally
| questionable acts. Or that, because the CCP didn't do anything
| bad to Ma, the CCP isn't bad. It's the phrasing that's
| concerning, and it taints the interpretation of rest of the
| comment. That's how Westeners will read this.
| Magodo wrote:
| Pray tell me, what is the benign reason for all the territorial
| aggression that China is showing? Is the West supposed to
| ignore all that and the 'whole world will win'?
|
| https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/not-just-india-s-g...
| dang wrote:
| Please do not take HN threads further into nationalistic
| flamewar. We don't want that here.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| newbie578 wrote:
| People do not assume that CCP is evil. If you have literal
| concentration camps ("re-education) then you are evil. Simple
| as that. I do not even understand how is this even a
| discussion, and how are people so blatantly willing to defend
| CCP.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| But the thing is they _don 't_ have literal concentration
| camps. For one, 50+ muslim countries testified this in the
| UN. An UN counterterrorism expert visited Xinjiang and wrote
| a favorable report.
|
| This video sums up many other analyses and arguments:
| https://youtu.be/i915eArrego
|
| I'm not pro-CCP, I'm just pushing back against people who
| base their opinions of China on false or misleading
| information.
| slumpt_ wrote:
| You explicitly went to bat for the CCP regarding their
| treatment of Taiwan some time ago. That you are pro-CCP is
| fine just be transparent about it.
|
| And yes, there are camps and yes, those camps are hurting
| people psychologically / physically. We've had several
| interviews with refugees who have escaped to date, as well
| as photos and videos of the conditions.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| I don't deny there are camps. I deny there are
| _concentration_ camps with the intention to murder
| people. Big difference.
|
| I don't say all camps are good. I don't say nobody is
| being ill-treated. I'm sure there are incidents. But I
| deny that it's a _mass concentration camp with the
| intention of murdering 2 million people_. Big difference.
|
| All the interviews with people who say there are
| concentration camps, are with Uyghur separatists who have
| ties with extremist members. The very same people that
| just a few years ago the US would have labeled as
| terrorists. Don't you think their answers would be
| biased? Look at the track record of North Korean
| dissidents, it's been proven again and again that they
| have an incentive to lie and that not everything they say
| can be 100% trusted. What makes you think Uyghur
| dissidents are different?
|
| Heck, for years I've heard stories about Falun Gong being
| painted as wholly-innocent people who are wrongly
| prosecuted by the CCP. But now, the New York Times
| exposed them as spreaders of pro-Trump misinformation.
| This is another example that shows that people who are in
| conflict with the CCP, are not automatically trustworthy
| or honest people. Yes maybe the CCP's treatment on them
| is wrong, but two things can be true at the same time:
| CCP could be wrong to treat them like that, AND they
| could be untrustworthy or have a evil agenda of their
| own.
|
| Even this point is discussed extensively in the video.
|
| If you're gonna argue whether China's anti-terrorism
| efforts use too broad sweeps and is heavy-handed, fine, I
| don't disagree with that. What I do disagree with, is
| that it's a genocide/enslavement of 2+ M people or
| whatever the made-up count is today.
|
| You mentioned Taiwan. Whatever I spoke about here on HN
| about Taiwan is neither in support of the mainland
| position on Taiwan, nor against it. I was just providing
| perspective so that people gain a more accurate
| understanding of the issue. Perhaps you think CCP is "the
| enemy" and their perspective is automatically invalid. No
| I don't agree with that.
|
| I don't consider myself pro-CCP. You're not gonna find me
| in agreement with the great firewall policy for example.
| But that doesn't mean I need to be necessarily against
| everything they say/do either. No, people who don't
| oppose CCP at every turn, are not pro-CCP. As I said: I'm
| pushing back against people who are against China for the
| wrong reasons.
| slumpt_ wrote:
| I suggest you look up the definition of a concentration
| camp. Slaughter need not be part of the intention. Nor
| was it a claim I made.
|
| Nor does it make it any less heinous.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| There is no need to be pedantic about technical or legal
| definitions. We all know that the word 'concentration
| camp' is used to conjure up images of Nazis killing jews
| en masse. But I'm arguing they're not killing/enslaving
| Uyghurs en masse. I base this on my own research and
| sources.
|
| If you go by the more flexible definition of 'large
| number of people in a small room' regardless of what
| actually happens to them: I can't independently verify
| how large rooms are but I agree that people should be
| treated as humanely as possible.
|
| But in all of this, you've completely neglected the fact
| that China has reeducation camps ( _real_ reeducation
| camps, not "reeducation camps" in quotes) is because of
| terrorism influences from Afghanistan. If you watch the
| video I provided, there's a testimony that says that the
| US were in Afghanistan in order to make use of Uyghur
| extremists to destabilize China. What is China supposed
| to do, do nothing and let people continue to walk around
| with bombs and machetes? China isn't doing all this just
| for fun, terrorism is a real problem that has no good
| solution without collateral damage.
| DanBC wrote:
| > We all know that the word 'concentration camp' is used
| to conjure up images of Nazis killing jews en masse.
|
| There's a really important point here about holocaust
| denial. We need to make sure that people understand some
| of the camps were extermination camps, and that some of
| the camps were work camps. This is because anti-Semitic
| conspiracy theorists will point to the work camps and say
| "See? No evidence of people being killed in this camp.
| That 6 million number doesn't make any sense."
|
| Concentrations camps aren't just about mass murder.
| They're a human rights violation and we rightly draw
| attention to this by using the correct terms.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| But I also reject the notion that there are forced labor
| camps. As I said via my sources, the evidence for forced
| labor is very dodgy.
|
| Ajit Singh: "'Forced labor' stories on China brought to
| you by US gov, NATO, arms industry to drive Cold War PR
| blitz" https://thegrayzone.com/2020/03/26/forced-labor-
| china-us-nat...
|
| Some people go to _prison_ for being extremists. Some
| people go to mandatory reeducation for being extremists.
| Some people are wrongly convicted, with the prosecutor
| not having done its job well, and that 's wrong. But you
| can't compare mandatory forced reeducation (like a super-
| boarding school for adults), and instances of lazy
| prosecutors, to concentration camps; that's a totally
| different level of crime that's not even in the same
| ballpark.
|
| You just conjured up the word "holocaust denial". Not
| sure whether you are implying I am like a holocaust
| denier. But don't you think that such a serious
| accusation, requires serious evidence? So far I haven't
| seen you addressing any of the actual content that my
| sources discuss.
|
| Again, if you argue whether people should be treated as
| humanely as possible, then I agree. But you can't brush
| terrorism and the US involvement in Afghanistan, under a
| carpet and pretend like they're not relevant and like
| they're wholly-independent issues. Again: what else is
| China supposed to do? It's easy to say "choice x is bad"
| without considering whether there are better choices. Has
| _anybody_ found a better solution to terrorism? Even
| France is now talking about things very similar to
| Chinese reeducation camps.
|
| Do you also denounce the US war on terror as an equally,
| if not bigger human rights violation? Do you believe the
| US deserves the same treatment as the one you think China
| should receive? If you do then I'll believe you are
| arguing in good faith, because selectively enforcing
| human rights is how it is weaponized nowadays.
| [deleted]
| ncann wrote:
| There is a very obvious anti-China sentiment on Reddit, where
| you barely see any post with good news about China, where any
| news coming out of China is seen as CCP propaganda, and pro-
| China comments are downvoted and accused of being shills for
| the CCP. I'm disappointed to see the same trend on HN, even if
| it's not as bad.
| kristofferR wrote:
| You reap what you sow.
|
| When you employ propaganda on a massive scale nobody who
| knows about it is ever going to take your words seriously
| again, even if you are actually speaking the truth in that
| instance. The existance of the 50 Cent Army makes every
| positive comment about China dubiuos.
| La1n wrote:
| >The existance of the 50 Cent Army makes every positive
| comment about China dubiuos.
|
| The US is known to do this too, but I see no one bring that
| up at literally every single US related topic.
| sebmellen wrote:
| In your thinking, how is Jack Ma's reappearance "good news"?
| Doesn't that imply that he _was_ potentially in danger, or
| taken "out of commission," and it's reassuring that he's not
| dead or in jail?
|
| This sort of conversation would never take place if a high-
| profile US executive like Bezos, Musk, or Gates disappeared
| for months after criticizing the government, and reappeared
| without making any mention of it. People would be freaking
| out and we would already have 500+ investigative journalists
| on the case, articles all over the place, widespread
| speculation... In China, it seems all of those are
| disallowed.
|
| If anything, this seems to be pro-China hypocrisy, not the
| other way around.
| throwaway4good wrote:
| A lot of people are not interested in understanding or
| cooperation when it comes to China.
|
| They want a confrontation so much that they would rather
| entertain completely made up speculation (it is a deep fake,
| recorded from prison ...) than something rooted in actual
| reality.
|
| I think it sticks deep and it leads us, the west, down a dark
| path.
| throwaway4good wrote:
| Wrt. Ant Financial.
|
| Banking is a regulated industry in all parts of the world as
| modern fractional banking is essential a form of legalised
| pyramid scheme. If it is not regulated will inevitable
| oscillate and collapse.
|
| That Ant Financial need to be regulated like bank, rather
| than any other company, naturally follows from the nature of
| its business.
|
| The regulative crackdown on it would have happened in any
| other country as well. Maybe not in exactly the same manner
| but in substance.
| ncann wrote:
| Indeed. People have too strong conviction on what is right
| and what is wrong, and they don't want to change their
| opinion. The internet echo chamber only amplifies that.
| dang wrote:
| Please don't do nationalistic flamewar on HN, regardless of
| what other people do. This is supposed to be a site for curious
| conversation across differences, even when the differences are
| deep and wide. High-indignation rhetoric makes that impossible.
|
| I've posted about this many times, including specifically on
| Chinese topics:
| https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
|
| (Also, please don't use allcaps for emphasis--I know that
| sounds minor, but it's related, and it's also in the site
| guidelines.)
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| Hi dang. I understand. It wasn't my intention to start a
| nationalistic flamewar, I'm just hoping to get people to
| understand China better so that the west and China can come
| together, which benefits everyone. But looking back at my
| comment, I can see how some of my pent-up frustration with
| past comments can come over as gaslighting. I'll be more
| mindful of this in the future.
| dang wrote:
| Appreciated!
| duxup wrote:
| I'm not sure "just laying low" is all that reassuring to
| anyone. The specifics of 'jail' or something else really isn't
| what anyone is concerned about.
| yongjik wrote:
| > In the last Hacker News thread, people were so sure that the
| government jailed him for criticizing the party. Even though
| there was no evidence of such, people just assumed it MUST be
| true because the CCP MUST be evil.
|
| That's because in any other moderately functioning country, it
| takes at most a few phone calls by journalists to clarify the
| matter: "Excuse me, billionaire Mr. X hasn't been seen for
| days. Could you verify if the police arrested him?" "Oh really?
| We have no record of such an arrest - in any case, arresting
| someone like him will generate five hundred tweets within
| minutes, wouldn't it?" "You're absolutely right, have a good
| day!"
|
| There's only one other country where I've seen high-profile
| figures just "disappearing" regularly: North Korea.
| hungryhobo wrote:
| i mean that's the point isn't it, in all the news about jack
| ma's disappearance, has any journalist tried to clarify the
| matter? NO, it's all speculation and journalists trying to
| create a narrative.
|
| So, jack ma has only disappeared in this magical world
| created by western media.
| Chris2048 wrote:
| > has any journalist tried to clarify the matter? NO
|
| So, do you think no journalist in the world has tried to
| clarify the matter; or no journalist in the world is _able_
| to clarify the matter?
|
| > jack ma has only disappeared in this magical world
| created by western media
|
| ok, so what does the world of Eastern/Chinese media say?
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| Journalists could certainly do a much better job with the
| data already available. For example, there's the actual
| underlying financial issue: the way Ant Group handled
| money is very risky, but they want to be regulated as a
| tech company instead of as a financial institution. This
| has the potential to cause a huge financial bubble.
|
| Even if there's some merit to the accusation that Jack Ma
| got into trouble for criticizing, I think the regulatory
| issue at least deserves some investigation, or
| explanation. But very few journalists chose to cover
| this; pretty much everybody went all-in on the "Jack Ma
| got into trouble" angle.
| Chris2048 wrote:
| If we are talking about the disappearance, I think the
| issues you describe are separate from the issue of
| whether Ma was being involuntarily detained. And that is
| the question - "Ma got into trouble" could mean a lot of
| things.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| Even if it's separate, does that warrant a near-complete
| lack of interest in the other issues, which are at least
| _strongly related_ , even if it's just to provide
| context? I think it's quite irresponsible to cover things
| from a single angle only, which paints a caricature.
| Chris2048 wrote:
| I'm not sure there is a lack of interest in the financial
| issue in general; but why do you say it's strongly
| related, or relevant context? Why would
| regulatory/financial issues with Ant be related to Mas
| apparent disappearance?
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| Here are some possibilities based on my limited knowledge
| of the topic:
|
| * Because being involved with a "scandal" in such a way
| is an embarrassment to Jack Ma. He lost face and is
| ashamed to see people for a while. This is a much bigger
| cultural issue in China than in the west. He wants
| emotions around him to die down a bit.
|
| * The regulators were asleep. Or maybe there was
| corruption, and an IPO which _should_ have been stopped,
| almost wasn 't, until Jack woke up sleeping dogs. Maybe a
| few people in the regulatory body have been sacked for
| not pulling the brakes earlier.
|
| I believe that if Ant didn't _actually_ violated
| regulatory concerns, that Jack Ma would 've been in a lot
| less trouble.
|
| I honestly can't see how they _aren 't_ strongly related,
| or how such things aren't equally interesting. It's like
| reporting "Trump got in trouble with the tax authority
| after having insulted the tax authority boss" (implying
| that the tax authority is "evil" and merely bullying
| Trump), without covering whether the tax authority
| _actually_ found tax crimes that Trump is guilty of.
| Chris2048 wrote:
| If by "Trump got in trouble" you mean he went missing,
| that would be a separate issue, yes.
|
| For a public CEO to choose to not reappear amid rumours
| that he is missing would be an issue in itself.
| [deleted]
| BlackFly wrote:
| This comment is doing exactly the thing it accuses others of
| doing: not understanding and painting with too wide a brush.
|
| Of course on a forum you are simultaneously going to find large
| swathes of people that take on seemingly contradicting
| viewpoints. Interpreting that to mean that all participants in
| these discussions are hypocrites or anti-China is either an
| emotional reaction or a failure to consider the truth of
| diversity on a forum.
|
| Some people view high profile Chinese business people to
| effectively be extensions of the Chinese political class. Look
| at what happened to Canada after they arrested Meng Manzhou for
| the rationale behind these views. The success of a Chinese
| company in a foreign market should be considered as a potential
| security risk for any security analyst that still knows the
| meaning of the word dilligence. Whether it is only potential or
| actuality is another matter.
|
| As for lying low, some people are still hoping to hear from the
| panchen lama; it is totally rational for people to consider
| that China will arrest critics or people it views as risks and
| that those people may never be heard from again or their
| apparent freedom may be staged. There are many other examples.
| People in the West have a concept of due process that the
| government--and perhaps the people--of China does not seem to
| accept as reasonable or necessary.
|
| All of these views are possible to hold simultaneously with
| varying degrees of nuance, and certainly some people hold some
| or none of these views again with varying degrees of nuance.
| There is an understanding of China and how China does not
| necessarily share some things viewed as ideals by some
| participants here. There is no West vs China, because "the
| West" is not a unified set of ideals or viewpoints, as any
| cursory survey of views on healthcare, military, the treatment
| of Assange, etc. will quickly reveal.
| DiogenesKynikos wrote:
| > Look at what happened to Canada after they arrested Meng
| Wanzhou for the rationale behind these views.
|
| The Chinese government treated the arrest of Meng Wanzhou as
| a political issue because it was clearly tied to the US trade
| war, and more generally to the US government's attempts to
| undermine the Chinese tech sector (which we see from the
| ever-widening US sanctions against Chinese tech companies).
| Donald Trump himself even suggested that the US might drop
| the prosecution of Meng Wanzhou in exchange for Chinese
| concessions on trade.
| Chris2048 wrote:
| Are you _just_ saying that people are making wild assumptions
| on the basis that the CCP is evil, or that "the CCP is evil"
| is also an unsubstantiated assumption as well?
|
| > things in China are far more complex and nuanced
|
| sure, but these comments are anti-CCP, not anti-China/Chinese;
| it's a problem if the two are considered synonymous.
|
| > Maybe there's an alternative point of view than "CCP is evil"
| that is at least just as valid.
|
| Is there an alternative point of view than "the Nazi regime is
| evil"? You can undermine any reasonable assumption by invoking
| Descartes daemon, at that point you're just gaslighting people.
|
| > See Cyrus Janssen's blog
|
| from that post: In China it's always important
| to remain (Di Diao Didiao) or "low-key". There is
| not much he can say after being chastened for thinking he is
| above the greater good. A little humbling is good for an
| inflated ego.
|
| What's missing is an explanation for these. A "cultural" reason
| implies _mere_ social influence, and self-imposed behaviour.
| But it doesn 't explicitly say that - given the topic of
| discussion, that's pretty suspicious.
|
| The question is; what happens when people ignore the "greater
| good", and refuses to remain low-key?
|
| And _who_ is chastising Jack Ma?
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