[HN Gopher] Harpoon V
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       Harpoon V
        
       Author : luu
       Score  : 35 points
       Date   : 2021-01-19 02:49 UTC (20 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.forbes.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.forbes.com)
        
       | willvarfar wrote:
       | No idea how this old Forbes article turns up on HN now, but I
       | recognise that author! His own blog is kinda interesting
       | http://www.hisutton.com/Covert_Shores_Articles.html and full of
       | excellent illustrations, explanations and cutaways.
       | 
       | (am a regular reader)
        
       | germinalphrase wrote:
       | My assumption is that war games like this are generally complex
       | and would be difficult for the non-boardgame player to just jump
       | into.
       | 
       | Arm I wrong about this? Is there a satisfying option in the genre
       | that could be played by - say - a clever 12 year old?
        
         | mcguire wrote:
         | Harpoon (https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/300724/harpoon-v-
         | modern-...) isn't necessarily the most complex of the games,
         | but it's not the least complex either.
         | 
         | https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgamecategory/1008/nautical/li...
         | is a list of the modern naval games on BGG. Unfortunately, I
         | didn't see anything that I recognize as a good game
         | (https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/2073/sixth-fleet-
         | modern-... is popular, with the recent resurgence of late-Cold
         | War games) and is not excessively complex.
         | 
         | If you go back to WWII, there are more options (and many more
         | games). I'll just make one suggestion:
         | https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3670/battlewagon (A print-
         | n-play edition is available from WargameVault.) (It's moistened
         | Star Fleet Battles, if you know that game.)
         | 
         | Note: if you're talking about wargames in general, the sky's
         | kinda the limit. How about another suggestion:
         | https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/6544/battle-moscow, which
         | is old, but intended to be an introductory game, is freely
         | available (https://grognard.com/bfm/game.html), and has a
         | really spiffy online verion (https://oberlabs.com/b4m/).
        
           | ghaff wrote:
           | This is one of my favorite threads about a board wargame
           | ever: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/371289/1914-jim-
           | dunnigans-g...
           | 
           | "This game should have been produced 55 years earlier and the
           | General Staffs of the major combatants forced to play it at
           | least 12 times before actually going to war. They may have
           | been too old to begin a war at that point."
        
         | protomyth wrote:
         | I think Harpoon can be done by a clever 12 year old. Its not
         | Squad Leader after all. Its more a carefully walk through the
         | steps type thing.
        
         | megameter wrote:
         | I still have a copy of _Totaler Krieg!_ My brother and I tried
         | to play it once, in the 90 's. We did not finish setup before
         | dinner, and decided to give up and relinquish the table. It's
         | classified as being in the middle of the spectrum of
         | difficulty. Despite that failure, I don't regret the
         | experience. It produced a tangible connection between the
         | computer wargames I had been playing and the history behind
         | those.
         | 
         | It's a different kind of way to think about play, and it helps
         | to imagine you're back in 1970 and computers are a thing only
         | really available for Serious Projects, and working through a
         | simulation with maps and minatures and calculation tables is
         | the next best thing. Spending most of the day setting up the
         | board made sense. A 12-year-old could do it, but Fortnite is
         | more immediately gratifying.
         | 
         | Part of what killed wargaming as a major tabletop genre is that
         | computers are better at being simulators of the "noisy"
         | elements of warfare. On some level, you know that ranking a
         | unit with "attack" and "defense" ratings is going to be
         | bullshit. If you make up more numbers and add more tables and
         | put more rules in the game - which is what the complex end of
         | wargames did - that doesn't make it better, but if you take an
         | approach where physical reality is referred to as often as
         | possible(which you can do in real-time on a computer), you can
         | make a claim to accuracy emerging from that.
         | 
         | What tabletop has done since then is to get better at being a
         | more immediate experience and to convey things in broad strokes
         | of abstraction, instead of setting up dozens of units and
         | running calculations of troop morale and weather.
        
       | stefanpie wrote:
       | I am trying to figure out how these work because this seems
       | interesting to me. My understanding is that the "game books" tell
       | you the rules and the scenarios. But how do you play the games:
       | software, on a table like board games?
        
         | simonh wrote:
         | You play it on a table with miniatures or markers, or even on a
         | big sheet of graph paper. You can even play it on a whiteboard.
         | The rulebook gives various stats for your assets (ships,
         | planes, missiles and weapon systems), and you roll dice for
         | things like sensor detection (radar, sonar, etc), scoring hits
         | and damage to the target. There might be modifiers to various
         | dice roles for weather, countermeasures, equipment and troop
         | quality, etc.
         | 
         | I played an early version a few times in the 80s, and read The
         | Hunt for Red October the year it came out. Funnily enough I
         | watched the movie last week, it really holds up.
        
         | mcguire wrote:
         | See Miniature Wargaming
         | (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniature_wargaming).
        
       | throwawaybutwhy wrote:
       | Who needs Harpoon when there's Command? (One needs to be retired
       | to play both, but I digress)
        
         | evgen wrote:
         | I play Harpoon as a palate cleanser between runs of The
         | Campaign for North Africa... I do agree with the article
         | though, the tabletop boardgame was somehow more satisfying than
         | the computer version of same.
        
           | simonh wrote:
           | You might like DEFCON.
           | 
           | https://store.steampowered.com/app/1520/DEFCON/
        
           | mcguire wrote:
           | " _...between runs of The Campaign for North Africa..._ "
           | 
           | I'm not sure whether that is a boast or a cry for help. :-)
           | 
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Campaign_for_North_Africa
           | 
           | https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/4815/campaign-north-
           | afri...
        
             | evgen wrote:
             | Very tongue in cheek.... but I have a copy of the rules
             | that I will pull out every time I move house and scan
             | through before putting back into the big box of old games I
             | almost never look at. I cannot believe how much time I
             | spent on Squad Leader in my youth -- not even ASL, the
             | original four box sets. Squad Leader, Starfleet Battles,
             | and AD&D; it is amazing how much of a summer in the mid to
             | late 80s could be occupied by those three and a group of
             | geeks ready to play all day long in someone's basement.
        
         | mezentius wrote:
         | I immediately thought of Command -- it's a very deep rabbit
         | hole to go down, and the sine qua non if you're into this
         | stuff. But if you are not (1) a defense analyst or (2) a
         | retiree you will be horrified to discover how much time you can
         | sink into reading things like "Fleet Tactics and Coastal
         | Combat," or "NATO Defense Expenditures 1970-1990."
         | 
         | https://store.steampowered.com/app/1076160/Command_Modern_Op...
        
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       (page generated 2021-01-19 23:02 UTC)