[HN Gopher] Foxconn gets green light for $270M factory in Vietnam
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Foxconn gets green light for $270M factory in Vietnam
Author : 80mph
Score : 78 points
Date : 2021-01-18 14:36 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (appleinsider.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (appleinsider.com)
| evgen wrote:
| And Wisconsin continues to wait...
| ska wrote:
| That wasn't ever a real project, it seems.
| hanniabu wrote:
| Does anyone know if Foxconn pollutes? I imagine Vietnam doesn't
| have the best infrastructure so polluting is the norm there and
| they'd go unchecked in devastating the environment.
| antoniuschan99 wrote:
| There was a huge protest about a taiwanese factory polluting
| the water there a few years ago. I think they were dumping.
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jul/01/vietnam-...
|
| Vietnamese in the South generally have beef with Chinese
| though, not Taiwanese
| tuankiet65 wrote:
| One that already happened, but not Foxconn:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Vietnam_marine_life_disas...
| rmah wrote:
| It's not a binary question -- every factory pollutes. If only
| because energy, transport, etc is necessary and people generate
| biowaste. The question is how much and what types. The best way
| to clean up any environmental damage in a poor country is to
| help it become a rich country. At that point, the people and
| gov will start to prioritize it.
| ryder9 wrote:
| you should be an oil company pr rep
| thefounder wrote:
| Another communist country pumped up by U.S corporations. This
| time will be different, right?
| BoysenberryPi wrote:
| Ignoring everything else wrong with this comment, you should
| know Foxconn is a Taiwanese company.
| thefounder wrote:
| I guess that Apple and the the rest of the pack had no say in
| that. Maybe they will find out about Foxconn's plans from
| this HN post.
|
| Ignoring everything ignorant with your comment you should
| know that Foxconn uses that factory to manufacture computer
| devices for U.S corporations just like they've been doing in
| China for decades.
| [deleted]
| oytis wrote:
| The largest Foxconn factory is in China, so I can see nothing
| wrong with this comment at all.
| protomyth wrote:
| Well, they have moved to a mixed-economy and are still moving.
|
| There was a documentary several years back that had a VC
| General who was being interviewed. He was walking down a street
| talking about his grandchildren's interests and walking by all
| those American company's logos. He was not pleased.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| It's important to note that Vietnam, much like China, only
| promises the mixed economy temporarily, and officially at
| least claim that they will move away from it once the country
| is sufficiently developped.
| nguyenkien wrote:
| "officially at least claim that they will move away from it
| once the country is sufficiently developped"
|
| This is very bold claim, can you give source? I'm
| Vietnamese and never hear about that before.
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| They claim the current semi-planned economy is a
| transition to true socialism. It's been in transition for
| over thirty years, and sounds more like ideological
| justification than a real plan to change.
|
| For details see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist-
| oriented_market_econ...
| sudosysgen wrote:
| It certainly could be ideological justification, however
| as early as the 1880s communists and socialist started
| advocating for 50-100 years of state capitalism in less
| developed countries before socialism would be attempted.
|
| Lenin for example had this position in the USSR once he
| realized central planning wasn't going to work out well
| enough, but Stalin took the USSR in another direction
| when Lenin died.
| oytis wrote:
| Their politics is still authoritarian/totalitarian regardless
| the economy. So really looks like wannabe China #2 to me.
| kodah wrote:
| There's one with their name on it in Wisconsin they could use
| trianglem wrote:
| That's what you get when you mix sycophants with a snake oil
| salesman like trump
| sschueller wrote:
| Or Elon Musk. Where is that FSD?
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| Same as every year: just around the corner.
| harikb wrote:
| It is not nearly complete
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/dec/08/wisconsin-fo...
|
| > The village notified her subdivision's residents that it
| would use eminent domain to seize their homes if they didn't
| accept a relocation offer.
|
| Projects started using eminent domain and destroying lives
| rarely succeed
| neartheplain wrote:
| > Projects started using eminent domain and destroying lives
| rarely succeed
|
| Is there data on this? I've heard the opposite from admirers
| of more authoritarian governments, which "get things done" in
| part by moving quickly because they don't have to deal with
| eminent domain proceedings.
| wlesieutre wrote:
| I know the Supreme Court case that opened the gates to
| these shenanigans ( _Kelo v. City of New London_ ) back in
| 2005 ended similarly.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v._City_of_New_London
|
| Pfizer wanted the land and said they would create jobs and
| give the state more tax revenue, the state said "well that
| sounds like 'public use' to us," seized the land, bulldozed
| the houses, wasted tens of millions of taxpayer dollars,
| and then Pfizer picked up and moved out of town.
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/13/nyregion/13pfizer.html
|
| Nothing was built and the property where the homes were
| demolished still sits vacant:
|
| https://www.theday.com/section/specialreports&Profile=1268
| dhritzkiv wrote:
| I learned about Kelo v. City of New London from the 5-4
| podcast[1] (a progressive slanted podcast analyzing
| bad/controversial Supreme Court cases). Interestingly, it
| was one of the few cases covered on the podcast where the
| 'liberals' on the court decided the case.
|
| [1] https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/kelo-v-new-
| london/id14...
| aidenn0 wrote:
| That's largely because the authoritarian governments have
| stronger controls over the press; trumpeting their
| successes and hiding their failures.
|
| Mussolini didn't actually make the trains run on time; he
| only convinced people he did.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| Some authoritarian governments can actually get things
| done, by taking responsibility and doing the stuff that
| needs doing.
|
| Others, such as Mussolini's, just use the authority to
| give fat contracts to corporations they have friends in
| and aestheticize the solution.
|
| It's a real risk.
| Proven wrote:
| That's what the NYT and admirers of central planning want
| us to believe.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| duxup wrote:
| By its nature if an authoritarian gov wants a thing done it
| happens to some extent, how much you hear about failures is
| also likely to be limited at that point.
|
| They have the possibility of doing things quickly, but also
| by its nature they aren't subject to much transparency,
| review, criticism, or accurately reporting results.... thus
| they really don't even have to be very good or fair about
| it ...
| [deleted]
| throwawaysea wrote:
| I feel like we're focused on the wrong axis. To me it is is
| less about authoritarian versus non-authoritarian as much
| as competent versus incompetent. Although in Wisconsin's
| case no credits were given to Foxconn
| (https://madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-
| politics/foxconn...), the state did pursue a number of
| improvements to roads and infrastructure that were not
| appropriately tied to the agreements with Foxconn. The
| contract should have clearly required reimbursement (to the
| state, and by proxy, to affected citizens) if the project
| were to be canceled. The deal they had forged had bad
| return on investment and for it to break even would have
| required an enormous period of time
| (https://reason.com/2020/10/20/wisconsins-foxconn-
| boondoggle-...).
|
| Compare this to NYC/NY State's now-cancelled but well
| structured deal for Amazon, where they stood to make a 9:1
| return on investment, with only $505m in capital outlays
| for the public, and that itself was tied to a minimum $3b
| investment from Amazon, with projected new revenue of $28
| billion for the city and state over 25 years
| (https://ny.curbed.com/2018/11/16/18098589/amazon-hq2-nyc-
| que...). NY gets a lot of flak for mismanagement on other
| fronts (for example transit infrastructure) but they were
| able to select the right incentives, terms, and conditions
| to create a highly favorable subsidy deal that wouldn't
| have left them high and dry if the company changed
| direction.
|
| My conclusion from all this being - it doesn't make sense
| to demonize either subsidies or eminent domain or whatever
| else, as much as it does to just demand competence.
| rat87 wrote:
| We should be extremely critical of the sweetheart
| corporate giveaways and if the Amazon project had gone
| forward I'm sure it would have had more then it's share
| of reality not living up to promises.
|
| It's easy for politicians and companies to make nice PR
| statements about theoretical jobs that will be created
| but reality frequently doesn't live up to it
|
| These sort of subsidizes should be banned. Cities should
| complete on infrastructure and we'll educated work force
| not giveaways
| throwawaysea wrote:
| The Amazon subsidy was entirely based on previously shown
| results, meaning that Amazon would have only received
| breaks if they had created jobs in the prior year or had
| made particular investments already. The city and state
| would not be making ahead-of-time investments due to how
| they structured it. I think that's fine and protects the
| public's interest sufficiently. It's also worth noting
| that a substantial portion of the Amazon deal was through
| existing city/state programs like Excelsior, ICAP, and
| REAP (the article goes over those), which other companies
| can also try to get qualification for.
|
| Personally, I don't think subsidies should be banned,
| because public agencies must be allowed the freedom to
| make smart business decisions when the opportunities
| arise. The one danger I see is that big corporations that
| can navigate the legal and political landscape may have
| better access to these deals than a smaller player, which
| stifles competition. To fix that, my suggestion is that
| any subsidy deal should also be made available in some
| smaller scaled-down form to smaller competitors.
| mehrdada wrote:
| I wouldn't necessarily be as bearish on the one in Vietnam. The
| dynamics are very different. To wit, I have already purchased
| AirPods bearing Designed in California, Assembled in Vietnam
| markings a few months ago.
| benzible wrote:
| There's a great Reply All episode about this:
| https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-all/wbhjwd/
| wtfiswiththis wrote:
| >Art of the deal
|
| -Wisconsin Republicans seeking to subsidize corporations who will
| never love them back
| FerretFred wrote:
| Undercutting Taiwan/China labor costs eh?
| imposterr wrote:
| That's definitely one interpretation. Another could simply be
| diversifying risk by opening up shop in multiple places.
| bfrog wrote:
| Company should be blackballed from producing US goods. Took the
| money and ran in Wisconsin. Zero benefits to US citizens.
| credit_guy wrote:
| Exactly what money did it take?
| breck wrote:
| Question for people in the tech factory industry: who has the
| coolest factories?
|
| I love the Intel museum at their campus, but have never been
| inside a Fab or even a computer assembly factory (or automotive
| factory, etc). Closest I've come is the place where they make all
| the Cape Cod Potato chips.
|
| If you were to put together a world "most advanced factories"
| sightseeing tour, what would be on the list?
| antoniuschan99 wrote:
| Strange parts has some cool inside look at the popular pcb
| manufacturing fabs such as pcbway and jlcpcb
|
| https://youtu.be/ljOoGyCso8s
| breck wrote:
| Wow, this is awesome!
|
| Thank you!
| baybal2 wrote:
| Most advanced does not necessarily mean most big.
|
| I myself only saw Chinese manufacturing, and to lesser extend
| Vietnamese (which is mostly run by Chinese, and Japanese
| anyways.)
|
| The PCB stages were fully automated for decades, and even very
| small shops may have zero manual population. PCB shops look
| more or less the same anywhere in the world.
|
| Most interesting things come after that.
|
| "Robots" are very easily beaten on cost by manual labour unless
| there is crazy commitment to volumes, long production runs, and
| having robotisation done very thoroughly.
|
| Automation has economic advantage in very narrow sets of
| circumstances.
|
| Though the variance in non-automated assembly lines can be
| giant. You can easily spend 10 times to assemble a widget with
| same amount of people, and equipment by getting the process
| management wrong.
| reportingsjr wrote:
| >"Robots" are very easily beaten on cost by manual labour
| unless there is crazy commitment to volumes, long production
| runs, and having robotisation done very thoroughly.
|
| Go find me a reasonably profitable machine shop that doesn't
| have mostly CNC machines. You won't find many. Even in places
| with low cost labor like China CNC machines are pretty
| ubiquitous outside of fairly specialty shops.
|
| You can look on YouTube and see tons of examples of factories
| that have a mixture of robotic automation and human labor.
| The production world has changed a ton in the last ten to
| fifteen years!
| axaxs wrote:
| That's a little unfair. CNC are a type of machine that do
| something every machine shop would need to do.
| Manufacturing and assembly typically require very specific
| automation that would be useless to anything else...hence
| why it only makes sense with volume.
| baybal2 wrote:
| For metal fabrication, yes. CNC mills do make quite a lot
| of commercial sense for even low volume fabrications. But
| we here talk about electronics manufacturing, not
| metalworking.
| tape_measure wrote:
| On HN, we are supposed to respond to the strongest
| interpretation of a comment.
|
| CNC machines add capabilities that are not possible by
| hand. In these shops, you might see deburring done as an
| extension of the machine cycle where labor cost is high,
| but by hand where it is low.
|
| GP is right that automation is a huge commitment in design
| and manufacture. If there are any finicky parts, it's
| likely that humans will have to do or correct the robot's
| job, and now you have an idle robot and an engaged human.
| wrnr wrote:
| Good for Vietnam, it is a nice country, hopefully they become
| more open to business by foreigners.
| Y7EhHtj8a7 wrote:
| One good side effect of globalization is to create
| opportunities to bootstrap the local economy (by whatever
| magnitude) and increase the standards of living for the local
| population and once the local economy is good enough that the
| wages and quality of life rise a bit, pick up and move to the
| next country that's cheaper and hopefully by then the local
| economy is good enough to support it self, at the very least
| better off than it started with. Hopefully in the future we
| would have the entire world above a certain standard of living
| :)
| icefrakker wrote:
| Vietnam is nothing more than a Chinese colony at this point.
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