[HN Gopher] A Nepali team has made the first winter ascent of K2
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       A Nepali team has made the first winter ascent of K2
        
       Author : eigenvector
       Score  : 298 points
       Date   : 2021-01-16 18:29 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.alpinist.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.alpinist.com)
        
       | tangue wrote:
       | For those wondering how hard it is : More people have traveled to
       | space than have summited K2 in summer [1].
       | 
       | [1]
       | https://www.mountainfilm.org/media/breathtaking-k2-%E2%80%93...
        
         | sh87 wrote:
         | counting people who have tried and _failed_ to summit K2 vs
         | space travel is (to me) a better quantification.
        
           | x3iv130f wrote:
           | 23-29% of the climbers who try K2 die in the attempt.
           | 
           | It is at the very least an order of magnitude more dangerous
           | than space flight.
        
             | whereistimbo wrote:
             | The real russian roulette...
        
             | Syzygies wrote:
             | This "Fatality Rate" compares successful summits and
             | returns to those who die trying. Worded this way, it's a
             | tricky number to pin down. You could be with a group that
             | never planned to choose you as part of the smaller summit
             | party, and still die on the mountain. But it's far from
             | true that a quarter of people who visit the mountain die.
        
             | actuator wrote:
             | Just to add, Annapurna is the deadliest 8000er. With
             | Kanchenjunga, K2 in second depending on where you get stats
             | from.
        
               | saberience wrote:
               | I always thought Nanga Parbat was more deadly than
               | Kanchenjunga.
        
       | Xenoamorphous wrote:
       | Just today we got the news here in Spain that a spanish alpinist,
       | Sergi Mingote, died while descending from K2. There were multiple
       | teams attempting this, then?
        
         | remus wrote:
         | I believe so. As I understand it (this is all third hand so
         | take it with a pinch of salt) there are other teams who are
         | waiting for another weather window to make an attempt.
        
         | snowwrestler wrote:
         | There were several teams, and it's my understanding that some
         | of them had paying clients, which is pretty controversial. I
         | saw a bunch of social media posts that were veiled complaints
         | about bringing paid clients into a such a serious situation.
         | 
         | With the possible exception of the other teams on the mountain,
         | I think all the big mountain climbers are psyched that it was
         | the Sherpas to do it.
        
         | schwax wrote:
         | https://www.alanarnette.com/blog/2021/01/16/winter-k2-update...
         | 
         | > There are around 20 climbers aspiring to summit, and claim a
         | winter K2 summit. Some have acclimatized to Camp 3 but most
         | have only reached Camp 1. Some will end their effort based on
         | today's first summit, and citing rockfall danger, others will
         | still retain their motivation. We'll see what the final K2
         | winter 2020/21 total is in a few weeks.
        
       | sebmellen wrote:
       | I've always wondered why we don't see sherpas holding all the
       | climbing records, given how much better adapted they are to their
       | environments than most other mountaineers. Maybe this is the
       | beginning of a new trend! The sentiment is at least echoed in the
       | article:
       | 
       | > _In the 2015 newswire, Green quoted Dawa Gyalje Sherpa: "We are
       | hoping as young climbers, to take climbing in Nepal to a new
       | level. All of us have climbed much bigger mountains but always
       | with foreign climbers. We want to show that we are not just
       | porters on the mountain, climbing only for our livelihood, but we
       | are interested in climbing because we enjoy it, too.... We are
       | the young generation of Sherpa climbers but we are looking to the
       | future of Nepal and Sherpas also."_
        
         | AniseAbyss wrote:
         | Voluntarily climbing the top of a mountain is like a hobby rich
         | people do. Later it became a matter of nationalism. A climbing
         | expedition takes a ton of money.
        
           | nix23 wrote:
           | BS. Climbing was first done by crazy Mountain Kids, then the
           | big state sponsored expeditions started (a first that was the
           | north and south-pole), GB missed both and shifted to the
           | biggest mountain with GB "Won" the race, hence the name of
           | Everest as the "third pole".
           | 
           | A modern (new age) expedition looks more like that (no
           | Sherpas no help from others who don't climb):
           | 
           | http://www.alpinist.com/doc/ALP10/climbing-note-siegrist
           | 
           | Thalay Sagar with Stephan Siegrist and Rob Frost
        
         | iamaaditya wrote:
         | I believe there is some form of memory bias or bias in
         | reporting by the media. If you look at the record books, you
         | will find that most records are held by Sherpas. For example,
         | more than 70 records for Mount Everest is held my Sherpas (or
         | other Nepalese climbers) [1], far more than climbers from any
         | other country.
         | 
         | Apa Sherpa, one of the most prolific Sherpas, holds many
         | records [2]. Interesting fact he was Sherpa to Peter Hillary
         | (Edmund's son).
         | 
         | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mount_Everest_records
         | [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apa_Sherpa
        
         | PopeDotNinja wrote:
         | It's been said that history is written by the winners. I guess
         | you could also say history is written by the people who pay for
         | it.
        
         | krallistic wrote:
         | Its nice to see Nepal with this first winter books finally in
         | the history books. They done so much for mountaineering.
        
         | sonalr wrote:
         | Somewhat related, highly recommend this documentary. It really
         | shows the untold story of how hard of a life it is for a porter
         | in the Everest region of Nepal. This is such a great story, and
         | very well done by Nathaniel Menninger.
         | https://youtu.be/MxAU4wWG2Hs
        
         | intrepidhero wrote:
         | Sherpas were on all the big western expeditions that I know of.
         | Their names are just usually dropped when talking about it,
         | which is a shame. I recently read Krakauer's Into Thin Air and
         | appreciated that he treated the sherpas on the expedition as
         | fellow humans. They figured as important as anyone else in the
         | story. He was also careful when talking about past climbs to
         | mention all the climbers, sherpa and otherwise.
         | 
         | Very interesting book for me. I knew (know?) very little about
         | mountaineering.
        
           | sebmellen wrote:
           | That's very nice to hear, and I'll check the book out.
           | 
           | While on a cruise ship last July (well, 2019) I made friends
           | with a Nepalese security screw and we talked about Nepal and
           | their family occupations. It's very sad to hear of how
           | disposably sherpas are treated on the vanity tours by
           | unskilled foreign climbers. Basically the sherpas end up
           | dragging along their clients and they face outsized risk on
           | the way.
        
           | strstr wrote:
           | For a long time, both Tenzing Norgay and Edmund Hillary
           | evaded the question of who summitted Everest first. They
           | reached the top as a team.
           | 
           | Most of the "forgetting" seems to happen when it comes to
           | communicating about larger, less notable expeditions.
        
             | sharadov wrote:
             | Hillary did a lot for the Sherpa community, and he
             | rightfully gave Tenzing the acknowledgement that he
             | deserved, one of the first western mountaineers to do so.
        
               | saiya-jin wrote:
               | If you go to Everest region in Nepal, there are schools
               | and even airport built by him just above Namche Bazaar...
               | truly great contribution back. He literally spent decades
               | of his later life trying to develop mainly Sherpa
               | communities which lived in brutal poverty, largely left
               | on their own by central government. Let's not forget
               | Nepal was and still is one of the poorest countries in
               | the world. Very few benefit from tourism, and money
               | Sherpa earn is brutal compared to rest of non-
               | mountaineering population.
               | 
               | Basically you either join Gurkha and fight for British,
               | go for mountaineering career, become a corrupt government
               | official (which you can't just join due to nepotism) or
               | try to leave if you have money for it.
               | 
               | This 'critique' goes both ways and kind of show its
               | natural to humans - when both Tenzing and Hillary came
               | back to India from Nepal (Nepal didn't have an
               | international airport back then, and it took quite a bit
               | of time to built one, all expeditions went through
               | India's sea ports) - Hillary was almost completely
               | ignored, and Tenzing was the only one to be celebrated.
               | 
               | I understand the motivations ie due to past shameful
               | english colonialism, plus good old nationalism. But its
               | like that everywhere. It doesn't make it any more
               | acceptable these days obviously.
        
             | DeBraid wrote:
             | To emphasize your point, I'm well familiar w/ Sir Edmund,
             | but TIL about Tenzing Norgay, thank you.
             | 
             | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenzing_Norgay
        
               | Tarsul wrote:
               | funny thing is that the first "who wants to be a
               | millionaire" winner in Germany had him as million
               | [Deutsche Mark] question ("who climbed the mount everest
               | with Edmund Hillary" or something like that). And that's
               | why his name has always stuck in my head. However, it
               | also goes to show that he is less famous than Hillary.
        
               | EdwardDiego wrote:
               | In New Zealand, despite our somewhat child-like at times
               | desire to be known on the world stage, we all largely
               | know and acknowledge about Tenzing Norgay as well as
               | Hillary - which is exactly what Sir Ed wanted.
        
               | dbmikus wrote:
               | They only have a photo of Norgay at the summit because
               | Norgay didn't know how to take a picture of Hillary.
               | 
               | Kind of ironic to me that the less famous one is the only
               | one with the photo! Ha!
        
               | mthoms wrote:
               | Source? As I recall, Edmund stated he just didn't think
               | of it in the heat (actually: cold) of the moment. They
               | were only on the summit for a few minutes.
               | 
               | I'd be very surprised if a man of Tenzing's calibre and
               | achievements could not figure out something so trivial.
               | 
               | Edit: I've found some citations that support your point,
               | I apologize.
               | 
               | Although, I'd add (a) Tenzing's account states that he
               | offered to take a photo but was declined. And (b) a more
               | fair description would be " _because he had never used a
               | camera before_ " rather than " _didn 't know how to work
               | a camera_".
               | 
               | The later suggesting a lack of intelligence or civility
               | (though I'm sure that wasn't your intent), I'm probably
               | just nitpicking :-).
        
             | Someone wrote:
             | Larger? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_British_Mount_Ev
             | erest_exp...:
             | 
             |  _"The mountaineers were accompanied [...] by 362 porters,
             | so that the expedition in the end amounted to over four
             | hundred men, including twenty Sherpa guides from Tibet and
             | Nepal, with a total weight of ten thousand pounds of
             | baggage"_
             | 
             | I don't know the details of that expedition, but typically,
             | the sherpas make multiple trips up and down the mountain to
             | bring the necessary material up to height, so that those
             | paying can relatively comfortably acclimatize at height.
             | Climbing Everest almost always is a team effort.
             | 
             | Even if you ignore those porters , those _"twenty Sherpa
             | guides from Tibet and Nepal"_ , IMO, deserve to be
             | mentioned there more than Jan Morris, who didn't make it
             | further up the mountain than 22,000 feet
             | (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Morris).
             | 
             | (and aside: ten thousand pounds of baggage seems very low
             | to me. That's less than 30 pounds per porter = I guess
             | that's what made it to the highest camp)
        
               | HotHotLava wrote:
               | While the Sherpa were crucial to success of the
               | expedition, it's also important not to jump to the other
               | extreme and underestimate the contributions of the
               | British party. This was not a "guided" expedition where
               | the clients were just going up in the wind shadow. Back
               | in 1953, it's pretty unlikely that sherpa party could
               | have summitted on their own.
               | 
               | If I remember correctly (it's a while since I read
               | Hillary's account of the expedition), only three of the
               | sherpa were able to go up to camp 4, and two of those
               | them had to turn back due to altitude sickness. Tenzing
               | Norgay did not have the technical knowledge to operate
               | the oxygen systems. Also, crampons were far less advanced
               | back then, so the mountaineers were also responsible for
               | cutting steps every few days for all the routes that the
               | porters were using to haul gear.
        
           | tweetle_beetle wrote:
           | I'd say that the days of Sherpas being completely invisible
           | have passed. There is now something of a noble savage
           | mystique around them, unhelpful in its own way. You get
           | brownie points for virtue signalling about your gratitude to
           | Sherpas today. They often get to keep gear that their clients
           | no longer need after their trip, for example. Hopefully their
           | status continues to rise.
           | 
           | What is somewhat sadder is the fate of the porters on which
           | almost every expedition and trek, except the purest of pure
           | self-supported alpine expeditions, still relies. These are
           | poor people who are typically from the lowlands, acting as
           | sole breadwinners for their families, doing difficult,
           | dangerous manual labor at high altitude without beneficial
           | genetic adaptations or decent clothing. There are some good
           | small charities trying to improve their conditions, for
           | example https://www.canepal.org.uk/
        
             | furyg3 wrote:
             | > except the purest of pure self-supported alpine
             | expeditions
             | 
             | Do these exist? From what I understand Sherpas are the ones
             | building the routes every year... So even if you hike
             | alone, pack all of your stuff into base camp alone (good
             | luck! many trips), carry all your own ladders and ropes,
             | and pack all of your stuff up to each subsequent camp
             | alone... you're still hiking on routes that Sherpas built
             | at the beginning of the season...
        
               | tweetle_beetle wrote:
               | The use of Sherpas to open routes is restricted to a
               | relatively small number of the most popular and lucrative
               | routes, usually in Nepal. Most "proper" climbers look
               | down on any notion of routes bring prepared - fixed
               | equipment, ladders, etc.
               | 
               | There are a good number of expeditions of a higher
               | standard of mountain ethics which still happen and still
               | many new routes to claim in the Himalayas. But these are
               | far removed from the world of the stereotype of the type
               | of person who wants to climb Everest who get all the
               | media attention - look up Nick Cienski for a good example
               | of virtue signalling, ego and narcism.
               | 
               | If you're interested, The Alpine Journal is an excellent
               | resource for capturing all the lesser known alpinists
               | doing amazing things with little to no media attention
               | and a tiny budget. Among the low key mountaineers the is
               | even a bit of a culture of not reporting first ascents,
               | due to the bureaucratic nature of permits - allowed to
               | climb one peak, but not one next door. Those in the know,
               | who are looking for a more pure climbing experience,
               | prefer India and Pakistan where permits are easier to
               | obtain, there are virtually no climbers and hundreds of
               | new routes to do in unspoilt valleys.
        
           | bitL wrote:
           | And yet Krakauer had no issues throwing a guy, who tried to
           | save some of the members of his team, under the bus when
           | Krakauer messed up, and turned a hero into a villain.
        
             | ceocoder wrote:
             | Jon Krakauer has responded to Anatoli Boukreev here[0], it
             | seems as like most things in life, there is more nuance
             | this than just hero villain dichotomy.
             | 
             | [0] https://medium.com/galleys/a-postscript-to-into-thin-
             | air-e23...
        
               | bitL wrote:
               | That Kazakh person can't defend himself any longer and
               | Krakauer's story is highly suspicious due to glaring
               | holes/omissions - perfect knowledge of the incoming storm
               | yet deciding to move forward, "hallucinated all the way
               | down" as a defense for not helping Beck Weathers,
               | sleeping in a tent while Anatoli was saving clients,
               | expecting from the barely surviving Kazakh climber a
               | perfect knowledge of English etc. Krakauer is a talented
               | writer writing compelling stories but his throwing mud on
               | a deceased climber who managed to save all his clients in
               | the death zone that night is just disgusting.
        
               | saiya-jin wrote:
               | This. He writes good, but its kind of accepted in
               | climbing community that he really messed up with Everest
               | disaster, lied, tried to blame others for his own fails
               | etc.
        
               | arcticfox wrote:
               | Source? Because his response to _The Climb_ , linked
               | above, seems pretty damning.
               | 
               | Edit: found a source to balance,
               | https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB864852385619851000
        
           | ignoramous wrote:
           | For K2, it is usually the Pakistani porters from Gilgit-
           | Baltistan: https://www.wionews.com/south-asia/pakistani-
           | porters-the-uns...
           | 
           | > _Their names are just usually dropped when talking about
           | it, which is a shame._
           | 
           | Reminds me of Amir Mehdi's story:
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amir_Mehdi#K2_(1954)
        
             | saiya-jin wrote:
             | Very few locals historically went above base camp, it used
             | to be really tricky to even get them to deliver goods to
             | base camp. They were afraid, always broke previously agreed
             | contract, tried to negotiating extra money. Plus had
             | ridiculously bad clothing/shoes for such an environment.
             | 
             | Basically every expedition in Pakistan in the past
             | struggled with this, and they even had an additional budget
             | for this.
        
         | jariel wrote:
         | They may be culturally and physically acclimatized to mountains
         | in every way, but not likely to the notion of
         | 'mountaineering/climbing' in the romantic sense.
         | 
         | After all it serves no purpose, requires development of new
         | tech, money etc..
         | 
         | I don't think anyone doubts they couldn't have done it long ago
         | were some local ruler to have made it a priority.
         | 
         | I wonder if they thought the original European 'explorers' to
         | be completely mad.
         | 
         | So that leaves the question: the mountains were 'right there'
         | and they had innate ability, so why didn't they 'just do it',
         | and have the routes all mapped out for centuries already? Is I
         | think the rhetorical question that unpacks a lot of things.
        
           | sebmellen wrote:
           | That is an interesting question. I think the most obvious
           | answer is that exploration is predicated on a certain level
           | of technological advancement, below which it is completely
           | unreasonable. If you don't have a food surplus and some
           | academic establishment and governance and trade routes,
           | exploration is an unreasonable vanity project. _Guns, Germs,
           | and Steel_ grazes this topic.
           | 
           | As Nepal develops further, I expect to see more of these
           | sorts of headlines.
        
             | beerandt wrote:
             | Let's not dismiss nation-state exploration with having an
             | overly indulgent hobby.
             | 
             | Establishing and mapping boundaries, demonstrating military
             | abilities, and even finding/protecting the trade routes you
             | speak of, all required exploration on a large scale.
             | 
             | Not to mention things like establishing trade and a
             | friendly presence with locals, establishing surveillance
             | posts, and my personal favorite, surveying the geoid, as a
             | means to better ICBM guidance.
             | 
             | Military always makes reason, and I suspect that might also
             | be at play in Nepal.
        
             | thisrod wrote:
             | I suspect that, before the industrial revolution, everyday
             | life was adventurous enough. Climbing didn't take off until
             | the 19th Century, when the romantic movement was reacting
             | against the safety and boredom of modern life, at least for
             | elites. Life in Nepal might have problems, but I doubt that
             | boredom due to excessive safety is one of them.
             | 
             | I've been meaning to read that history for a long time, but
             | never gotten around to it:
             | 
             | https://www.amazon.com/Killing-Dragons-Conquest-Fergus-
             | Flemi...
        
               | ip26 wrote:
               | Climbing started as part of territory disputes and non-
               | military shows of national bravado. There's been a
               | repeated surge after wars wrap up- perhaps a stand-in
               | trial for young men to prove themselves after the trial
               | of combat ends.
               | 
               | Many bold & great climbers of history were young men of
               | no fame from poor countries. There weren't that many
               | wealthy dukes just looking for a way to pass the time.
        
               | thisrod wrote:
               | > There's been a repeated surge after wars wrap up
               | 
               | What are you referring to? The Second World War seems
               | like the obvious case. I think there were two things at
               | play there. European climbers returned to the Himalayas,
               | and resumed where they left off in 1939; perhaps the war
               | delayed the ascent of Everest instead of causing it.
               | Also, nylon! Ropes that don't break--and that don't break
               | falling lead climbers--were a huge enabling technology
               | for rock climbing.
        
             | jariel wrote:
             | The Indian subcontinent was very wealthy on the whole, and
             | also extremely unequal, there are innumerable testaments to
             | that. See: Taj Mahal etc.
             | 
             | Very poor on a 'per-capita' basis but with unlimited
             | labour.
             | 
             | That said, slave labour doesn't necessarily advance
             | technology.
        
             | spanktheuser wrote:
             | It's also predicated on the existence of an economy which
             | provides ample leisure for some while others labor
             | ceaselessly at the edges of poverty. There's a reason the
             | Indian sub-continent lacked a food surplus, academic
             | establishments, strong governance etc. Great Britain looted
             | an estimated $45 billion from its Indian colonies during
             | the 173 years of its rule.
        
         | snowwrestler wrote:
         | It takes a lot of disposable income to be a serious climber.
         | Top Western climbers are either well-off or funded by the well-
         | off (patrons, companies, or even governments sometimes).
         | 
         | This funding has historically not been available directly to
         | Sherpas. That is partially because they did not have platforms
         | to influence the purchasing decisions of a large audience (the
         | main reason companies fund full-time climbers). And it's
         | partially because Western cultures tended not to value
         | indigenous people the same way it valued their own citizens.
         | 
         | Both of those have been changing a lot in the past decade, and
         | it's nice to see younger Sherpas able to take advantage of
         | that.
        
           | pcthrowaway wrote:
           | > It takes a lot of disposable income to be a serious
           | climber.
           | 
           | If you're not specifically talking about high-altitude
           | climbing, then I'd argue this is wrong. There are famous
           | *serious* climbers like Fred Beckey who managed to make
           | climbing their entire lives on next to no income. Lots of
           | serious climbers build up their rack from "booty" (taking
           | material abandoned by other climbers in a range of
           | situations, often bordering on questionably unethical), live
           | in a van or a tent, hitchhike, etc.
        
             | franzb wrote:
             | The climbing permit for Everest alone costs $11000.
        
               | pcthrowaway wrote:
               | Again, _if you 're not specifically talking about high-
               | altitude climbing_. High-altitude climbing is barely even
               | the same discipline as what 99% of climbers do.
        
       | alisausaaa wrote:
       | Wanna have hot-lovin' conversations? You're on the right way! -
       | https://adultlove.life
        
       | alisause wrote:
       | I was a really bad girl. Punish me with your dick in my mouth. -
       | https://adultlove.life
        
       | mac_was wrote:
       | Worth noting that the team used oxygen, which wasn't the case in
       | some other unsuccessful recent tries. It is a great achievement
       | for them but it was known that you can do it accompanied by the
       | help of oxygen or a team using it.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | saiya-jin wrote:
         | This. Using oxygen is regarded by all mountaineering
         | professionals as 'bringing the mountain down to your level', no
         | matter what season.
         | 
         | So the ultimate goal - climbing it in the winter, without
         | bottled oxygen, remains open to others. It has been achieved on
         | all other peaks, but requires many things to come together
         | including huge amount of luck (but that's valid for any 8000m
         | peak).
         | 
         | I would much rather see some elite, whatever the country, climb
         | it in alpine style. The persons who achieve this can be
         | rightfully titled kings of current high altitude
         | mountaineering. Simone Moro, Nirmal Purja and few others have
         | the potential.
        
       | vijaykcm wrote:
       | There was a post on it earlier:
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25803599.
        
       | PopeDotNinja wrote:
       | I'm an American, and I visited Pakistan on a whim back in
       | September. I was able to spend a few days in the north. I can
       | only say the north of Pakistan is incredible. There's nothing
       | that prepares you for seeing 8000+ meter mountains for the first
       | time.
       | 
       | There's no shortage of people offering tours, but I made my own
       | plans. I rented a Toyota Hilux 4x4 for 4 days at $50/day, and
       | they insisted I hire a driver because they didn't trust me to
       | drive solo (which in retrospect was wise of them because of
       | language barriers, road conditions, police/military checkpoints,
       | etc.). The driver quoted me a rate of $3/day (not a typo). I
       | drove from Islamabad to Hunza and back in 3 days (I could only
       | get one day off work, lol). It was way too much driving, but the
       | trip was still incredible.
       | 
       | To make the trip extra fun, I had the worst case of food
       | poisoning w/ diarrhea that I've ever had for the entire time. I
       | developed that the night before I was scheduled to drive off. So
       | in the morning I picked up some Imodium and baby wipes, and just
       | stopped every hour or two. I somehow managed to avoid shitting in
       | my pants, but I don't know how. Nearly every bathroom in
       | Pakistan, which might just be a hole in the ground, has a
       | handheld bidet, which is a power washer for your backside. No
       | matter how messy it got, I also walked away from a pit stop with
       | a fresh backside.
       | 
       | Here's some pictures of the traveling, sans pit stops...
       | 
       | https://photos.app.goo.gl/tZ3scbSFbPbxQCpG7
        
         | sillysaurusx wrote:
         | Kind of a weird question, but, did the bidet avoid the feeling
         | of "my asshole is literally on fire" that comes with diarrhea +
         | wiping?
         | 
         | The diarrhea is miserable, but the other part isn't great
         | either. I've often wondered if a bidet solves that.
        
           | PopeDotNinja wrote:
           | My rear never felt raw. I used almost no TP during my entire
           | trip to Pakistan. Basically I just took a targeted shower
           | many times a day, and didn't need to rub my bum raw.
        
           | polishdude20 wrote:
           | I wonder if that feeling is due to stomach acid not being
           | neutralized. Like you literally have hydrochloric acid eating
           | away at your holey ghost.
           | 
           | A bidet probably diluted it well enough.
        
             | fakedang wrote:
             | It's acid so yeah.
        
           | jcims wrote:
           | Not OP but in general but the answer is yes, and in the rare
           | circumstances where it's not it's still way better. The only
           | reason i haven't bought one for the house is that i can't
           | commit to the $300 when i know what's out there for $1000.
           | 2021 is a new budget year for discretionary purchases though,
           | sooo.
        
             | BeetleB wrote:
             | Perhaps you're getting confused with French style
             | bidets?[1]
             | 
             | The one people are talking about in this thread are simple
             | and much cheaper.[2]
             | 
             | [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=French+bidet
             | 
             | [2] https://www.amazon.com/Handheld-Toilet-Adjustable-
             | Pressure-F...
             | 
             | https://www.amazon.com/Purrfectzone-Sprayer-Toilet-Diaper-
             | Br...
        
             | howlgarnish wrote:
             | $300? You can buy one off Aliexpress for under $5.
        
               | simplemen wrote:
               | Bought one off amazon for $25. Not the fanciest. Need to
               | shut it off at valve after using it. It is not designed
               | to be undwr pressure. But it has been working for 8
               | years. Don't waste your money on $300 bidet, it is just a
               | hose.
        
               | Mountain_Skies wrote:
               | I've had both a deluxe $500 washlet seat and a cheap $50
               | model. They both get the job done but if it fits in the
               | budget, the more pricy model is worth it for the water
               | temperature control alone. Due to the mechanical nature
               | of the item, this is one of the few things I'd buy an
               | extended warranty on if available. The $500 model lasted
               | about five years before it died, which I suspect was
               | caused by several watermain issues rather than a
               | manufacturing defect or misuse. Stepping down to the $50
               | model was a bit of an adjustment and a minor quality of
               | life reduction.
        
               | howlgarnish wrote:
               | Proper washlets are a different thing, the OP and I were
               | referring to the basic bum guns which are not integrated
               | with the seat:
               | 
               | https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33060246812.html
        
               | amingilani wrote:
               | Pakistani living in Canada, here. I would hesitate before
               | doing that, the cheap plastic ones might sprout a leak
               | which isn't a problem in Pakistan because we design the
               | bathrooms to be washed with of water buckets that goes
               | down the drain in the corner easily. Find one at your
               | local Home Depot. I found one for ~$80 CAD in Ontario but
               | with a sturdier metal pipe and build.
        
               | Talanes wrote:
               | I don't understand why designing bathrooms to drain isn't
               | a universal practice.
        
         | sharadov wrote:
         | Incredible pictures, as an Indian I've always wanted to visit
         | Pakistan, but given the shared animosity between both nations,
         | I'll probably never get a tourist visa.
        
           | sumedh wrote:
           | If you want a similar terrain then head over to Srinagar,
           | kargil and Leh in Indian controlled Kashmir.
        
           | PopeDotNinja wrote:
           | Just go to the Waga gate, walk in backwards, and say you're
           | leaving.
           | 
           | On a more serious note, I was surprised to learn how little
           | travel there is between two countries right next to each
           | other.
        
             | amingilani wrote:
             | Ha, as a teenager I found out a movie was playing in Indian
             | theaters a few km across the border so I began planning on
             | getting a visa to hop across for a few hours. I may as well
             | have declared I was walking over to NK as someone from SK
             | :)
        
             | selimthegrim wrote:
             | Those areas are restricted for Indian nationals, like their
             | side of Kashmir is for Pak nationals
        
           | mixmastamyk wrote:
           | How about Nepal?
        
             | eqtn wrote:
             | No visa required
        
           | xerxesaa wrote:
           | You can. I'm American/Pakistani (dual passport), with
           | significant family who are in India (including my spouse and
           | grandparents who are Indian citizens).
           | 
           | I went with my wife to Pakistan last year. I have plenty of
           | Indian family who visit Pakistan regularly. It can take 6
           | months-ish to get a visa though and it is very annoying, so I
           | would not blame you for not wanting to go through the
           | process.
           | 
           | By the way, as an American I can't visit India. I used to
           | visit pre-2007, but since the Mumbai attacks (and further
           | strict restrictions imposed in 2011 onwards) they no longer
           | allow me to apply on my American passport and I've been
           | rejected every time I try on a Pakistani passport.
           | 
           | The animosity in that region is so unfortunate and I hope it
           | ends in the future. I've seen countless families kept apart
           | because of it.
        
         | polishdude20 wrote:
         | Woah thanks for sharing! I like the stairs leading to nowhere
         | carved into the snow! These views remind me of my trip to Peru.
         | Huge mountains all around and super nice people. The valleys
         | between the mountains alone are already 8000ft + above sea
         | level.
        
           | achow wrote:
           | That's a small glacier looks like.
           | 
           | And more interesting for me was the drink cooler that is
           | carved out of the glacier (at the bottom of the same steps).
           | Genius!
           | 
           | https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMj_FbNF8VZduHZ5AaEDU9V.
           | ..
        
             | polishdude20 wrote:
             | Yeah that's really neat!
        
         | soared wrote:
         | Barstool sports has a guy who does travel blogs and their trip
         | looks very similar to yours. Something I definitely want to do.
         | 
         | Any problems with passports, politics/etc?
        
           | PopeDotNinja wrote:
           | No problems at all.
        
         | mraza007 wrote:
         | I loved the pictures you took, i just can't wait to go to
         | northern Pakistan
        
         | cosmodisk wrote:
         | The pictures are beautiful and humbling at the same time- the
         | sheer scale of the surrounding terrain is quite something,
         | especially to someone like me,who comes from a flat country.
        
           | PopeDotNinja wrote:
           | It's crazy to me to think that the USA has some gorgeous,
           | tall mountains, and the mountains in Pakistan are twice the
           | height!
        
         | TCS_ wrote:
         | That poor driver...
         | 
         | +1 for those pictures! Incredible scenery
        
           | PopeDotNinja wrote:
           | I gave him a really nice tip :)
        
             | gautamcgoel wrote:
             | ...like, a week's wages? $21?
        
               | PopeDotNinja wrote:
               | Yup. $12 for 4 days, driving 8 to 14 hours per day. I had
               | to cover his food and lodging, but we just shared a hotel
               | room I was gonna rent anyway and food was cheap.
               | 
               | For comparison , I talk to a Kareem driver who nets $10
               | per day after expenses, and he drives 13 hours a day,
               | seven days per week to support a family of 4. And my
               | friend hired a part time for maybe 60 hours per month and
               | she asked for $40/month.
        
         | splike wrote:
         | This looks like an incredible trip.
         | 
         | Can I ask how did you safely organise a tour like that without
         | getting scammed/putting yourself in danger? How did you get in
         | contact with your driver?
        
           | PopeDotNinja wrote:
           | I googled "rental car Islamabad" and found a rents agency. I
           | called them and worked out a deal to pay cash upfront with
           | any special security deposit or insurance. They put me in
           | touch with the driver. Basically I just went for it.
        
           | asadlionpk wrote:
           | There are many travel startups now which specialize in
           | organizing these trips to north for foreigners. I can't think
           | of a name but should be easily google-able.
           | 
           | If you want to go cheaper, search for rent-a-car services in
           | Islamabad.
           | 
           | You probably wouldn't be scammed or put in danger either way.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | latchkey wrote:
         | Sounds like an epic adventure, right before everything went
         | nuts!
         | 
         | In SE Asia, we call it a "bum gun". Cannot live without it and
         | you won't use TP ever again. Easy to order off Amazon.
        
           | PopeDotNinja wrote:
           | I call it an ass blaster XD
        
         | ericjang wrote:
         | Thank you for sharing the photos ! Some of the poses are pretty
         | funny :)
        
         | Agingcoder wrote:
         | Fifteen years ago I spent three weeks in Pakistan (as part of a
         | significantly longer trip) - entered from the Indian side not
         | far from Amritsar, went to Lahore, spent some time in
         | rawalpindi then off to the Hunza. I also got the nastiest bout
         | of diarrhea I had ever had in my life, most likely caused my
         | bad meat (I still remember the faulty kebab...).
         | 
         | The locals where very friendly. When I was in the bus on the
         | karakoram highway, we had a brief stop (bathroom break, food,
         | etc). I was chatting with someone who was asking where I came
         | from, when suddenly he snapped his fingers. A can of coke
         | appeared on his hand, and he handed it to me, saying 'welcome
         | to Pakistan!'.
         | 
         | As to the landscape, I still remember it many years later.
         | 
         | A truly extraordinary place.
        
         | jrumbut wrote:
         | Driving tours like that are an amazing way to travel. It takes
         | away that feeling of needing to jam in as many things as
         | possible and you can just live and take in the sights for a
         | while.
        
         | xeromal wrote:
         | lol, sounds like you and I had similar experiences except I was
         | in morocco. I rented a stickshift suv and they insisted I get
         | automatic since I was american. lol. Drove several days pooping
         | my brains out from the bad food all the way from marrakesh to
         | chefchauen to tangiers. Great people and beautiful country
         | though!
        
         | r_singh wrote:
         | Ooh how exciting.
         | 
         | The north of Pakistan is where my grandparents come from.
         | However, being an Indian I can't really visit the place
         | easily....
        
         | DeBraid wrote:
         | Great story! Epic mic drop.
         | 
         | > No matter how messy it got, I also walked away from a pit
         | stop with a fresh backside. Here's some pictures...
        
       | SubiculumCode wrote:
       | We need to start living on Mars, if only to give climbers new
       | mountains to climb.
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mountains_on_Mars_by_h...
        
         | twic wrote:
         | As i understand it, the trouble with the Martian "mountains" is
         | that, while some are very tall, they are typically also very
         | wide, so they are less like mountains as we think of them, and
         | more like slightly pointy plateaus. Check out the diameters in
         | this list:
         | 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mountains_on_Mars
         | 
         | I couldn't find a good visual comparison of Martian and
         | Terrestrial mountains.
        
           | na85 wrote:
           | Olympus is so wide you can't see the summit from the base.
           | Because the summit is past the horizon.
        
           | mkl wrote:
           | Part of the problem of comparison is the smaller diameter of
           | Mars. Olympus Mons has such shallow slopes (~5deg) that from
           | the top you can only see the slope of the mountain itself, as
           | everything else is below the horizon.
           | https://astronomy.stackexchange.com/questions/25960/is-
           | the-c...
           | 
           | However, Olympus Mons has a very definite edge most of the
           | way around, formed by escarpments up to 8km tall, that you'd
           | have to get up before you get to the gentle slope.
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympus_Mons
        
             | Mountain_Skies wrote:
             | Between the distance and the lower gravity, sounds like it
             | would be fun to mountain bike down, well, until reaching
             | the 8km drop.
        
               | SubiculumCode wrote:
               | "Even though the surface gravity on Mars is only 3.7
               | meters/sec (compared to 9.8 meters/sec on Earth), the
               | thin atmosphere means that the average terminal velocity
               | hits a nail-biting 1,000 km/hour or so, compared to about
               | 200 km/hour back home."
               | 
               | -for those wondering if 1/3 gravity could make the fall
               | not as dangerous. ....although I suppose you might have
               | more of time at the beginning to stop your descent by
               | grabbing onto something maybe
        
         | wbl wrote:
         | Olympus Mons is an easy climb with life support because it
         | isn't very steep.
        
           | Synaesthesia wrote:
           | Olympus Mons is almost the size of France and is 21 km high.
           | Gentle slope but still, quite a hike.
        
             | SubiculumCode wrote:
             | Interesting, but how Texas turned into France has to be the
             | bigger story ;)
        
               | yowlingcat wrote:
               | Well, my friend, it all began with an innocuous
               | rebranding of "French Fries" to "Freedom Fries" on balmy
               | afternoon...
        
               | Synaesthesia wrote:
               | When I was young I had a picture of Olympus Mons
               | superimposed on Texas. It's pretty big
        
           | SubiculumCode wrote:
           | that said. I'd put it on my cv.
        
           | jamiek88 wrote:
           | It is almost 8km up before you get to the gentle slope though
           | so still a challenge even in 1/3 G
        
           | vuciv1 wrote:
           | Ah! Just a few days ago I wrote an article about what it
           | would be like to climb on Mars! I learned about Olympus Mons
           | in the process. It turns out that the surface area is equal
           | to that of Italy's. There are a few interesting features like
           | cliffs and craters, but you can probably just get around it.
           | 
           | https://jerseyfonseca.com/blogs/climbingmars
        
         | mhh__ wrote:
         | Although Mars is probably the ultimate "because it's there",
         | nature cannot be fooled - Everest has effectively been
         | commercialised now, but the other 8kms like K2 regularly eat
         | extremely experienced mountaineers for breakfast.
        
         | NickNameNick wrote:
         | I think it's going to be a while before we see
         | 
         | "First ascent of Olympus Mons without supplemental oxygen"
        
         | vuciv1 wrote:
         | Ah! Just a few days ago I wrote an article about what it would
         | be like to climb on Mars!
         | 
         | https://jerseyfonseca.com/blogs/climbingmars
        
           | soared wrote:
           | You would likely enjoy the red Mars book series by Kim
           | Stanley Robinson. One of the scientist kind of abandons her
           | duties to just explore Mars in a rover!
        
             | vuciv1 wrote:
             | Just looked it up, seems awesome. I'm almost done with what
             | I'm currently reading, so I will pick this up next. Do you
             | have any other recommendations? I've been looking for more
             | stuff like this (futurist, adventure, sci-fi, not cheesy),
             | but just haven't been able to find the right one.
        
               | SubiculumCode wrote:
               | I definitely recommend the series. Excellent excellent
               | series. Coincidentally, I was out tonight at a used book
               | store and I found and bought a copy of Red Mars (Book 1)
               | to replace my lost copy. Ha!
        
               | soared wrote:
               | Yeah it's great! New York 2142 by the same author was the
               | first one I read and it was amazing. It's nyc post global
               | warming where everything is flooded. Interesting setting
               | and adventure/business drama stuff.
        
               | SubiculumCode wrote:
               | I've lived in the same small town as Mr. Robinson for
               | over a decade, despite that he's a bit of a local
               | celebrity, I've never ever run into him. I was sure I'd
               | see him at the Delta of Venus cafe....it seemed so
               | reminiscent of some of the communities in the series, I
               | was sure that there was some inspiration coming from some
               | of the local Davis oddities.
        
           | pcthrowaway wrote:
           | Spacesuits are aid
        
       | Syzygies wrote:
       | I met Charles Houston, leader of the first two American
       | expeditions on K2. He approached me to have me explain the
       | mathematics of card shuffling, and I traded an hour listening to
       | him explain the medicine of altitude sickness (which helped me
       | later on some modest climbs).
       | 
       | He was on the wrong end of "The Belay" on the second climb, but
       | survived.
       | 
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Snead_Houston
        
         | dredmorbius wrote:
         | http://bwamm.blogspot.com/2007/12/famed-schoening-ice-axe.ht...
        
       | Ayesh wrote:
       | I follow @nimsdai on Instagram, he took the initiative for this.
       | Very nice content if you like that sort of content.
       | 
       | He (and I'm sure the others are too) are some real-life super
       | humans!
        
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       (page generated 2021-01-17 23:02 UTC)