[HN Gopher] Villarejo: The rise and fall of the Spanish state's ...
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Villarejo: The rise and fall of the Spanish state's secret fixer
Author : foolmeonce
Score : 90 points
Date : 2021-01-15 10:45 UTC (12 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bbc.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bbc.com)
| marvel_boy wrote:
| This is Spain, corruption at all levels. A failed state.
| LiveFastDieYoun wrote:
| Any sources to support that "failed state" claim? Every country
| has corruption yet on the internet I only see spanish people
| saying their country is awful.
| arcturus17 wrote:
| There's a point where the onus is perhaps on the reader of
| the comment to check about the claim?
|
| It seems to me that many people questioning this in this
| thread have not read anything about Spain, at all.
|
| I'll bite and give you a few examples of why one could
| consider Spain a failed state:
|
| - Consistently has one of the highest unemployment rates of
| the OECD. 10% was normal pre-2008, 15-25% has been the new
| normal ever since. Rates for young people in the 20-30 age
| group are typically between 40-50%, leading many to speak of
| a "lost generation".
|
| - About half of the Catalans want to secede. Basques are
| right now at an uneasy peace thanks to favorable tax
| treatments, but before the defeat of terrorist group ETA
| about a decade ago, more than a thousand people were murdered
| in the name of Basque secession. Though violence is unlikely
| to return right now (hopefully), the Basque situation could
| become similar to Cataluna in a moment's notice. There is
| also a clear rise of nationalism in other regions where this
| was barely a problem (eg, Comunitat Valenciana or Baleares)
|
| - The two main national parties have been part of massive
| corruption scandals, going from the national down to the
| local level (the article alludes to this). We're talking
| embezzlement in the billions, Roman-decadence levels of
| squandering (every town wanted its own airport), and
| intrigues that could be pulled off out of a cheap LeCarre
| knock-off.
|
| - Education is quite poor, if not abysmal. Massive dropout
| rates in secondary education, really bad comparative
| performance in PISA reports, and barely any university makes
| it into top-200 institutions worldwide. Politicians keep
| changing the agenda every four years instead of trying to
| agree to a national pact to get us out of this hole.
|
| These are just things off the top of my mind, but I could go
| on for a while.
|
| Maybe the fact that you only see Spanish people talk poorly
| about the country is a reflection of us being the primary
| subjects of its blatant problems, and of the fact that few
| outsiders care?
| rozularen wrote:
| Agree, I don't know where the people who replied this
| thread reads about Spain. Most of them suggest it's an
| average Country by the metrics
| Imaiomus wrote:
| Nurses and medics and mos professionals run out of the
| country when they can
|
| The economy without the ECB aid could have already crashed
| like 2 o 3 times in the last ten years
|
| Spain judicial system not following the constitutional
| rulebook when ordering new top judges
|
| Biggest airport 4 days block cause the snow machine workers
| are not rehired
| ErneX wrote:
| You clearly have not seen a failed state 1st hand.
| harperlee wrote:
| I bet you are spanish.
| arcturus17 wrote:
| Hearing a man speak, it is easy to know
|
| Where he saw the sun be born
|
| If he praises England, he must be English
|
| If he rebuffs Prussia, he is French
|
| And if he speaks ill of Spain... he is Spanish
|
| - Joaquin Bartrina, circa 1870
| alvatar wrote:
| So true. As a spaniard I do it all the time. Love/hate my
| country.
| pqs wrote:
| We are quite hard on us. This is a nasty cultural trait
| of Spain, because this hinders our work. I work in
| science and I think we would do much better if we didn't
| have this inferiority complex.
| yokaze wrote:
| I think, it also hinders you from holding your government
| (on all levels) accountable. Cases of corruption or
| incompetence don't seem to me quite as reflected in
| elections as it should. The excuse always seems to me,
| that people claim the other side is just as bad. Not
| denying that, but with that level of expectation there is
| no need to clean up your act.
| santialbo wrote:
| Until it's a foreigner doing it, then we all team up
| against.
| otikik wrote:
| I have said it many times, no one has united the Spanish
| so much as Jamie Oliver cooking "paella".
| helloguillecl wrote:
| As a latin-american, I never understood why spain could
| not capitalize on their relationship and cultural ties
| with Latin America, like England did with the
| commonwealth. We speak the exact language across a really
| vast territory across two continents, some potential
| there must have been!
|
| It is really austonding that there only a loose
| integration between spanish-speaking countries, despite
| sharing very similar (good and not so good) cultural
| values.
| nhnhhnl wrote:
| Exactly, seriously why is everyone in Spain like this?
| Spain is a wonderful and advanced country in most ways.
| Although I think having an inferiority complex is
| probably good for the country because it's the only way
| to improve.
| amval wrote:
| National identity is a social construct. Spain has always
| been the sum of several national identities. This has of
| course created frictions, but there wasn't the push that
| order countries had to eradicate those identities when
| the birth of most modern states happened.
|
| Franco tried to change that (as well as eliminating a
| sizeable part of Spain that didn't fit with his values).
| To this day, many spaniards identify the spanish national
| identity with those Franco's values (despite being
| fairliy minoritary and Spain a very socially progressive
| country).
|
| After the transition to democracy, regional governments
| had a lot of incentives to create or reinforce their own
| identities to gain economic leverage against the central
| government. This has always been extremely transparent
| and it's no coincidence that the two richest regions have
| the strongest independentist movement.
|
| So yeah, there is a lot of self-hatred or internalised
| inferiority complex... But also dishonesty. Many of the
| comments you will read online are self-interested
| (catalonian independentists) or even straight propaganda
| from the catalonian government. Not that it would be hard
| to find any other spaniard to rage about how Spain is,
| actually, a 3rd world country.
| enriquto wrote:
| > We are quite hard on us.
|
| There is no "us" in Spain. There's castillian
| imperialists and people living in occupied territories.
| The only possible "us" right now for many Spanish
| passport-holders is Europe.
| harperlee wrote:
| Seriously? Occupied territories?
|
| It's very frustrating that people are so vocal with
| extreme opinions such as this one. Whenever the topic of
| Spain comes up, someone will try to make it as if they
| have been conquered 10 years ago, trying hard to distort
| history that's quite similar to most of the other
| countries.
| enriquto wrote:
| I empathize with your frustration, although I don't think
| that these opinions are extreme at all.
|
| You know what is frustrating, also? To have a foreign
| army occupying your country.
| [deleted]
| pqs wrote:
| Spain is a country with huge problems. But it is not a failed
| state. You should try Venezuela if you want to get the flavour
| of failure. In any case, Spain is very corrupt, including
| Catalonia (where I live), but many other EU countries are
| corrupt too. I think about France and all the corruption cases
| about weapons procurement contracts (Taiwan frigates, etc.). We
| can also think about the US ...
| Erlich_Bachman wrote:
| > Spain is a country with huge problems
|
| Any sources or further reading?
| joncrane wrote:
| Start with the links at the bottom of OP's article and go
| from there!
| arcturus17 wrote:
| Start with The Spanish Civil War by Hugh Thomas. It
| provides good context on what led the country to civil war
| in 1936, and many of the problems unfortunately prevail
| nowadays.
|
| EDIT: I see I'm being downvoted, but I stand by my words.
| I'll provide more context though. The Spanish Civil War is
| the pivotal moment in Spanish history in the 20th century
| and explains a lot of what Spain is nowadays - from the
| state of autonomias (autonomous regions), to the bitter
| divide between Left and Right, or the total inability to
| reach national agreements on education and other strategic
| matters. Aside from that it's an authoritative and
| engrossing read.
| Arkhaine_kupo wrote:
| Sadly anywhere you look.
|
| But if you want something interesting I will name 3
| interesting cases that have shown up in the last few years.
|
| ERE case andalucia, essentially EREs are just the spanish
| name for furlough but it also includes things like early
| retirement. Well in Andalucia since 2001 until 2009 a case
| of local politicians managed to corruptly send up to 680
| million to themselves and family members. This is the
| largest corruption case in Spanish history in terms of
| money.
|
| Equally news worthy, the opposite political party (we
| mostly have two) had a case themselves where the tresurer
| Luis Barcenas was found to have 40 million on a Swiss
| account which he claimed he used to pay political leaders
| in Spain bonuses and that the money came from big companies
| that would bride them to give them public contracts.
| Essentially the american lobbying but in a country were its
| illegal.
|
| And lastly there is the case of the Cajas. Cajas are a
| spanish version of savings banks. They are meant to be
| small, local, have low risk accounts for worker savings
| etc. Problem was many had politicians in their boards who
| would make the requirements for credit much lower, so they
| could finance public pharaonic architecture that would get
| them reelected. (Due to this Spain has several unused,
| someone built them and no plane every landed or took off
| from them). This opened the gates not only for those
| politicians but for everyone to get credit incredibly easy
| which is one of the reasons Spain was incredibly hardly hit
| in 2008, and one of the reasons it's one of the few
| countries that has not recovered the loans given to banks.
| pqs wrote:
| You can also add al the Pujol family scandals too.
|
| Unfortunately, there are corruption cases all over the
| political spectrum in Spain.
| nhnhhnl wrote:
| It's not, really, I've been living through most of Europe
| and Spain's quality of life is way above average, there's
| literally no homeless (except for people with mental health
| issues or foreigners) low/middle class people buy
| properties, there's development in every industry, etc.
|
| Edit: Downvoter care to explain? Please check this [1] NUTS
| 2 official data, half of Spain is above half of Germany
|
| [1] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/GDP
| _per_...
| Erlich_Bachman wrote:
| Maybe because those things don't directly have anything
| to do with country being corrupt, which was the question?
| There could be some indirect connection, but corruption
| and quality of life are not exactly the same things.
| melenaboija wrote:
| A corrupt enough country would not be able to protect
| people as Spain does.
|
| Public services are paid with public money, if there is
| no money there are no services and as far as I know there
| is still public health and education and equal
| opportunitieas for (almost) everybody.
|
| A lot of corruption there anyway.
| ErneX wrote:
| Spain is many things, but a failed state it's not.
| amval wrote:
| That's such a ridiculous claim that I have to assume you are
| spaniard. Spain is actually a pretty average EU country by most
| metrics.
|
| (Not to say that it doesn't have structural problems, but
| that's hardly exclusive to Spain)
| rozularen wrote:
| Most metrics is subjective.
|
| The metrics most spaniards look are -General Unemployment
| rate -Juvenile unemployment -Minimun Salaries -Buy and Rent
| prices in principal cities
|
| And in most of these Spain is at the bottom
| tgv wrote:
| Perhaps it isn't failed, but it is pretty corrupt, and it is
| not in good condition. I wouldn't call it "such a ridiculous
| claim", just good, old exaggeration.
| amval wrote:
| Pretty corrupt compaired to what? Are Japan or France
| failed states? Both slightly lower in this aggregated
| ranking: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptio
| ns_Index#2...
|
| I am spaniard and am painfully aware of Spain's problems.
| And maybe spaniards being so critical of Spain could be
| something positive (instead of complacency or nationalism).
|
| But honestly? The negativity is pointless and exhausting.
| Pointless because these are rarely informed opinions
| putting data into context. Exhausting, because uplifting
| news need to have an angle that to make them negative.
|
| PS: And yes, I am not denying that there is a lot of
| corruption enabled by politicians in Spain. And it's a
| problem. But that doesn't make Spain a failed state. Or how
| is all of this true:
|
| - Loss of control of its territory, or of the monopoly on
| the legitimate use of physical force therein - Erosion of
| legitimate authority to make collective decisions -
| Inability to provide public services - Inability to
| interact with other states as a full member of the
| international community
| tgv wrote:
| > Loss of control of its territory
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_on_the_Referendum_on_Se
| lf-...
| Imaiomus wrote:
| please point what level of the spanish state you believe its
| clear without corruption, i can point cases from bottom
| (trash collection) to top (chief of state)
| ErneX wrote:
| You are exaggerating facts to justify your belief of living
| in a failed state. A failed state doesn't have the rule of
| law, education and health care that Spain enjoys. And I say
| this as a Venezuelan expat living in Spain since 2003.
| AniseAbyss wrote:
| Yeah real failed states don't get millions of tourists.
| teataster wrote:
| Let me just mark that I know no spaniard outside government
| doing paid overtime. Literally. Everyone is doing overtime and
| it is not paid. That is huge corruption wise, it prevents jobs
| from being created, money is being stolen from workers and
| taxes are not paid.
|
| Yes we have crooked politicians and public officials, but
| everyone is crooked and corrupt in the best case. At worst we
| are crooked and corrupt throwing our lives and money away.
|
| This gets no reflection on official statistics.
|
| Spain is a developing, quasi-feudalistic country and no amount
| of european money is going to change that at the root.
| gallegojaime wrote:
| This sort of negativity is misleading. Someone who has been
| to actual failed states will see how Spain turned out pretty
| successful, and only thinks of itself as inferior because of
| psychological reasons.
|
| Corruption is of the same nature as in any other developed
| country, inside trusted circles of crooks. Try bribing any
| policeman in Spain and see how that goes. We regularly
| convict criminals for embezzlement and related crimes,
| including a relative of the last Spanish king (Inaki
| Urdangarin).
|
| Structural problems will need to be resolved (employment and
| entrepreneurship we can never foster enough). But we can't
| keep kicking ourselves down, that seems to be the national
| pastime.
| teataster wrote:
| Exactly what I am saying. But I am saying, stop blaming
| others, start changing yourself.
| gallegojaime wrote:
| I don't agree with the language you used on your original
| post; however I can wholeheartedly concur on that idea of
| personal responsibility.
| pvaldes wrote:
| > Everyone is doing overtime and it is not paid.
|
| Sorry but not. Not my employees, that's for sure. Don't
| generalize.
| [deleted]
| bitcharmer wrote:
| I am willing to bet serious money that none of the members of the
| elites (royal family, prominent politicians) involved in the
| scandals will spend a single day in prison.
| pachico wrote:
| Well, the son in law of the former king did spend time in jail
| and is now in some kind of probation.
| antaviana wrote:
| He went to a women prison, and he was the only male in that
| prison, in a separate area.
|
| According to the press, EUR 2M were spent before his arrival
| in the "male area" to properly prepare the accommodations.
|
| His wife's share in the inheritance of the former King, in
| the range of tens to hundreds of millions, bumped up
| considerably by a 50% when the current King said he would not
| accept any inheritance from his father, so probably if he
| cannot find a job due to his ex-convict status, he'll be well
| off.
|
| I'm sure it's been a pretty bad experience for him compared
| to living in Switzerland, but not in the same league of the
| rest of people convicted in Spain.
| marvel_boy wrote:
| Yes, absolutetly. Today in court Villarejo said: "CNI(spy
| agency) was warned of the risk of an attack in Barcelona". In
| other country this will trigger a serious investigation.
| docdeek wrote:
| Interesting to imagine an ex-king in disgrace qnd exile from a
| European country. Having been born under Elizabeth II and having
| her hang on so long, I can't imagine a similar circumstance for
| the Commonwealth.
| Someone wrote:
| Did you forget about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_VIII?
| That's not that long ago (he was an uncle of Elizabeth II,
| wasn't he?)
| docdeek wrote:
| No, though he was well before my time. ;)
| pjc50 wrote:
| It was convenient that he could be forced to abdicate over
| the fact that Wallis Simpson was a divorcee, which prevented
| the need to ask far more awkward questions about how both of
| them were Fascist sympathisers. (It was a common view among
| the English upper class until it became unacceptable once the
| war started)
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marburg_Files
| Mediterraneo10 wrote:
| Edward's fascist sympathies were a problem only after he
| abdicated and determined how he was treated as ex-king.
| Wallis Simpson was so abhorred by high-class British
| society that she served as a more than sufficient reason to
| make him abdicate, the Nazi thing didn't really play into
| it in 1935-36.
| AlgorithmicTime wrote:
| He's been dead for almost 50 years
| The_rationalist wrote:
| Thanks for sharing, that was a good read
| nabla9 wrote:
| Her family has provided more than enough.
|
| It's insane that modern society prefers to have living
| inherited hood ornaments.
|
| Constitutional monarchy can be a peaceful way to democracy, but
| there is no reason to make it permanent. If Iran becomes true
| democracy, maybe they keep Ayatollah as tourist attraction?
| North Korea could keep Kim-family as well. 200-yers form now
| Kim-family wold be insignificant royals sitting next to British
| royals.
| hpkuarg wrote:
| I've always liked how many countries separate head of state
| from head of government, because I see the two as separate
| roles: one whose job is to be the most excellent person of
| that nationality, and the other to be the political leader,
| who may from time to time need to engage in dirty political
| shenanigans.
|
| It seems an argument can be made for having the former be
| inherited, so as to avoid the inevitable politicization of
| the position that happens in countries where a separate head
| of state is also elected. It's not fair to either the
| commoners who can ~never be elevated to that position nor to
| the royals who can ~never leave it, but perhaps better for
| the country as a whole.
| stainforth wrote:
| > to be the most excellent person of that nationality
|
| I don't think that's even a thing.
| oh_sigh wrote:
| Elizabeth II seems more about ruling her family with an
| iron fist. I guess that's peak Britishness?
| AniseAbyss wrote:
| There was an infamous corruption case in the Netherlands called
| the Lockheed scandal that involved the husband of the Queen in
| the 1970s.
|
| Won't bore you with the details but it was all swept under the
| rug by the (socialist!) government to save the country. In fact
| it only came to light because the US Congress investigated that
| company at the time.
|
| I am sure there are things going on all the time that never
| reach the papers. Even in "civilised" countries.
| rinze wrote:
| If you understand Spanish, this podcast tells several stories
| about this guy and it's very good:
| https://www.podiumpodcast.com/v-las-cloacas-del-estado/
| ladyanita22 wrote:
| I'm spaniard and I didn't know about this piece of jewelry!
| kostarelo wrote:
| I'm currently learning Spanish and while I'm sure I will
| understand 50% of what they say, I will give it a try :P
| lyt wrote:
| Offtopic, but hello, how are you learning Spanish? Any hacks
| or cool techniques so far?
|
| I'm learning it too and I'd like to think I'm 30% there, and
| I'm learning for my family .
| eznzt wrote:
| Villarejo is nowadays nothing more than a bluffer. Chances are he
| paid for this piece.
| loriverkutya wrote:
| This is not how the BBC works.
| radycov wrote:
| That's not how the old BBC works. PG's submarine applies to
| the BBC as well, no doubt, as well as foreign lobby groups.
| JeremyBanks wrote:
| Is "PG's Submarine" what we're now calling the fascist
| subtexts of his writings?
| Erlich_Bachman wrote:
| They probably refer to
| http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html
| bzb6 wrote:
| The what?
| _jal wrote:
| If you have information that the BBC will sell stories,
| tell us about it.
|
| If you don't, why are you pushing bullshit?
| nudpiedo wrote:
| I am not an specialist from the BBC but all media does,
| the easier to spot are the health benefit articles
| regarding some products, interviews to promote books and
| locations, etc. And then there are the subtle ones.
|
| All journalism is nowadays as closed to a mafia as it can
| be.
| _jal wrote:
| Again, if you or the OP can demonstrate that the BBC (or
| other institutions who claim they don't), then that's
| interesting.
|
| Baseless bullshit illustrating nothing but your own
| cynicism, however, is not, and doesn't belong here.
| pvaldes wrote:
| Nobody wouldn't be so stupid as to advertise their own crimes
| when involved in several trials. If this is publicity (and
| could perfectly be a paid history), certainly is not from him.
| hummel wrote:
| Never expected to read the name "Villarejo" on HackerNews
| harperlee wrote:
| Me too, but come to think of it, it is such a big story that it
| makes sense that it makes some international noise. And HN has
| had already its share of spies and similar exposes discussed.
| arcturus17 wrote:
| In part thanks to BBC talking about it, I suppose.
|
| Dude could've been taken straight out of a movie. Sometimes
| reality does surpass fiction.
| kuu wrote:
| He trademarked his image so they don't use it without
| permission: (in Spanish) https://www.elconfidencial.com/espan
| a/2021-01-08/villarejo-r...
| pantulis wrote:
| Same here.
| iagovar wrote:
| It really surprised me too. But here we are.
| anthk wrote:
| What's next? Tech news at Meneame? Wait...
| nhnhhnl wrote:
| Why? Could you elaborate please. Genuinely curious.
| hummel wrote:
| Because it is a case of corruption that is quite irrelevant
| at the Spanish level, much less at the European level and
| totally irrelevant at the global level. Villarejo is an ex-
| policeman who is blackmailing public figures to avoid a long
| prison sentence for corruption and bribe. He is a very basic
| blackmailer and the article at BBC is some PR to give some
| air to his judicial defence. It is certainly not a
| relevant/interesting/cultural article for HN.
| Al-Khwarizmi wrote:
| Irrelevant at the Spanish level? You sound like you consume
| too much Spanish media if you say that. Of course they
| don't give this much relevance, as with everything
| concerning the elites. In any country with decent media,
| this man and his scandals would make plenty of front pages.
| nudpiedo wrote:
| It does very often, it used to be a common political
| weapon, but a blackmailer can only take that long in the
| news, and as pointed out it was just basic blackmailing.
| Politically it is interesting to keep the attention on
| such things for people interested on sell bad image, the
| same as any other country.
| flojito wrote:
| Quite irrelevant at the Spanish level? I don't agree. He is
| involved in the dirtiest affairs of the Spanish society,
| from the political parties to the monarchy, including the
| police force...
|
| But, we agree on that, absolutely irrelevant for HN.
| pvaldes wrote:
| > He is involved in the dirtiest affairs of the Spanish
| society
|
| ... dirtiest affairs of the Spanish _politicians_. Power
| wars, corruption and how the deep state works routinely
| under the rug, are in itself pretty interesting themes.
| Don't made the mistake to thing that this would never
| happen in your own country (or that is not happening
| right now).
|
| Spanish _society_ does not have any part to play on this
| power and lies game but... "Spain is evil, yadah, yadah,
| we want independence, yadah, yadah, etc". Yep. Obviously
| elections in Catalonia have started again. We had heard
| this before.
| nhnhhnl wrote:
| Great, thanks for the clarification, I edited my original
| comment because I guess it was out of place the way the
| question was made. Personally, I've seen way less
| interesting articles here on HN though...
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