[HN Gopher] Alpine Linux 3.13
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Alpine Linux 3.13
Author : _ikke_
Score : 90 points
Date : 2021-01-14 16:48 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (alpinelinux.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (alpinelinux.org)
| tester756 wrote:
| Who stays behind Alpine?
| hn_acc_2 wrote:
| Another "I want to love Alpine but can't" user here.
|
| Their use of musl libc makes it a very poor choice for running
| python in a container, because it forces a lot of manual
| rebuilding since the PyPi wheels don't work on Alpine, among
| other issues [1]
|
| [1] https://pythonspeed.com/articles/alpine-docker-python/
| turminal wrote:
| I believe Alpine isn't meant to be used with pip, npm, and the
| like. Instead you are encouraged to create alpine packages out
| of your dependecies and submit them upstream. Writing a new
| package is completely trivial in Alpine, that's one of the
| things that made me switch to it.
| saagarjha wrote:
| They do work, though.
| hn_acc_2 wrote:
| Unfortunately the Python package ecosystem is enough of a
| headache.
|
| Now we add additional complication "OK, these pip package
| authors have upstreamed Alpine packages, and these other ones
| are only on PyPi".
|
| Maybe this approach would work if you can keep your Python
| dependencies to a small list of well-maintained packages
| chrisjc wrote:
| Out of curiosity, which container have you settled on instead?
| debian:buster-slim?
| hn_acc_2 wrote:
| I did settle on Debian, using i.e. python:3.9-slim-buster
| (though you can just as easily start from debian and install
| your python version)
| DiabloD3 wrote:
| So just use the glibc compat layer, or also install glibc.
|
| https://wiki.alpinelinux.org/wiki/Running_glibc_programs
| nenolod wrote:
| this page really should be updated, at this point all you
| basically have to do is `apk add gcompat`.
| hn_acc_2 wrote:
| If you ask me, installing glibc / compat layers defeats the
| purpose of using Alpine, especially since Alpine ultimately
| only saved me ~50 MB on image size versus a similarly
| configured debian:slim-buster image
| skrtskrt wrote:
| I would love for Alpine to progress to the point where it's a
| realistic desktop or server OS, rather than the OS for the
| containers that run on an Ubuntu or Debian server.
|
| Edit: Just got inspired and went to the contributing page.
|
| Think I'll start using it to develop with Vim in a VM locally and
| see where things go from there.
| numpad0 wrote:
| I had to install glibc last time I tried Alpine as desktop
| distribution, so
| nenolod wrote:
| What is it missing that makes you feel it is unrealistic?
| skrtskrt wrote:
| I am thinking more about adoption - and things that come with
| adoption - than functionality.
|
| It's not an option for which OS to flash onto my DigitalOcean
| VM. Getting it going on Raspberry Pi is largely undocumented.
|
| For desktop, it doesn't (officially) support many window
| managers or desktops.
| nenolod wrote:
| On desktop, we support KDE, GNOME and Xfce, which are the
| big ones, but yes, we could use more work there.
|
| It is hoped that the cloud images project will get Alpine
| available in all of the main platforms, we've done AWS
| already starting with 3.13.
| skrtskrt wrote:
| Thanks for your response!
|
| I am tempted to go try it on AWS, but I am sticking to
| DigitalOcean for personal projects for reasons. I will be
| very happy when it shows up on DO.
| mcrute wrote:
| I'm one of the maintainers of the cloud images and I can
| confirm that our goal is to release at least GCP and
| Azure images in addition to the AWS ones for the 3.14
| release cycle. We're also looking for suggestions on
| other cloud providers for which people would like to see
| official Alpine images built.
|
| https://github.com/mcrute/alpine-ec2-ami/issues/99
| ddevault wrote:
| An important philosophy to adopt as a user of Alpine is to
| take responsibility for the software you want to use on it.
| If you need a particular window manager or desktop
| environment, take responsibility for packaging it and
| making it available. The value of Alpine has little to do
| with package availability, and it's easy enough to package
| up anything you need yourself.
| skrtskrt wrote:
| I feel I am far from enough Linux knowledge to
| contribute, but I am inspired to get there.
| nenolod wrote:
| If you don't mind using IRC, there's a lot of people
| willing to help you get started with this adventure in
| #alpine-devel on freenode.
| Shared404 wrote:
| Building up to a usable desktop in Alpine is a good way
| to start gaining some of that knowledge.
|
| I had a laptop for a while that I built up from alpine-
| extended to a pretty nice side machine, complete with
| Sway, vim, Rust, Firefox, and a couple others.
| ddevault wrote:
| Alpine Linux is a system which appeals to those who want
| to know how their system works (and to be responsible for
| it as such). If you don't want to know how your system
| works, and don't want to be responsible for it, then much
| of Alpine's value proposition is lost compared to other
| distros.
| thedanbob wrote:
| Just a heads up to anyone using wireguard on Alpine: wireguard is
| now included in the kernel, so you'll want to uninstall the
| wireguard-lts package when you update to 3.13. Otherwise your
| kernel won't be upgraded and any other packages with modules
| (e.g. zfs) will break.
| stock_toaster wrote:
| thanks!
| gigel82 wrote:
| I want to like Alpine because it's so light, but realistically
| you can only ever use it in Docker / VMs or for very specific
| locked-down needs.
|
| The musl libc makes it a bad choice for general purpose desktop
| use (look at the number of hacks required to get some version of
| VSCode running on it for example).
| akvadrako wrote:
| musl is also sometimes much slower than glib, for example with
| some scripting languages. Even when your workload is compatible
| it's usually a good idea to use another distro in your docker
| container.
|
| When performance doesn't matter I think it's great though.
| nenolod wrote:
| We have started to extend musl with optimized routines like
| glibc does. But really, the performance difference is usually
| minimal.
| saagarjha wrote:
| Is this something that you are planning to upstream? Or
| will it be local to Alpine?
| piaste wrote:
| I think it totally makes sense that a minimal distro optimized
| for containers should be a different project from a minimal
| distro optimized for desktop use.
|
| Off the top of my head, Tiny Core Linux uses glibc and has
| desktop users as a primary goal.
| nenolod wrote:
| The gcompat project, which provides a wine-like compatibility
| layer for glibc applications, is pretty close to having vscode
| working out of the box.
| turminal wrote:
| VScode as a piece of software is profoundly incompatible with
| the philosophy of Alpine so this isn't too surprising.
| ddevault wrote:
| I use Alpine as my daily driver on desktops, and in production
| on bare metal servers (and in production VMs). musl libc is
| much easier to debug and understand, which pays off in spades
| regardless of compatibility with broken (i.e. non-portable)
| programs. The system is exceptionally stable and reliable,
| which I care about very much. It's also simple, in that it does
| everything I ask it to, and nothing I don't ask it to. I can
| fit the entire system in my head.
|
| I use Vim as my editor, and yes, programmers who value bloated,
| un-Unixy tools like VSCode will not find the system
| accomodating.
| fmajid wrote:
| I run Alpine on bare metal as my home server, very happy with
| it. I do run Ubuntu on my laptop/desktop.
| saagarjha wrote:
| On the contrary, we ship Alpine with iSH because it's so small
| by default. This keeps our app size down to just a few MB-which
| is not bad, IMO, for something that gives you most of POSIX on
| your iPhone :)
| arghwhat wrote:
| Alpine works quite well as a desktop OS.
|
| Using pre-built proprietary applications is the only thing that
| requires a little trickery.
|
| I imagine vscode could be built and packaged just fine if
| someone wanted to.
| jlelse wrote:
| You can install Alpine on the host and then use Alpine images
| in Docker on Alpine. :D (that's how I do it)
|
| But yeah I would like to use it on the desktop as well..
| alpaca128 wrote:
| For me the best alternative is Void Linux. It is still very
| lightweight and without unnecessary clutter, but more pleasant
| to use on a desktop.
| prepperdev wrote:
| Recently, I migrated my personal dev laptop from Ubuntu to Alpine
| Linux. It took a day, but everything works now, including hidpi
| stuff.
|
| No big issues so far and I am in the process of migrating my home
| server to Alpine.
| pythonist wrote:
| Given the popularity of Alpine it is important to update images
| as soon as possible given how many significant updates are there.
| Services like [1] help a lot for that...
|
| [1] https://newreleases.io
| syoc wrote:
| You might want to disclose your affiliation.
| pythonist wrote:
| Of course, I am affiliated, but also using it for Alpine
| Docker image notifications.
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