[HN Gopher] A Week with Plan 9
___________________________________________________________________
A Week with Plan 9
Author : simonpure
Score : 176 points
Date : 2021-01-14 15:37 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (thedorkweb.substack.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (thedorkweb.substack.com)
| pedrow wrote:
| I enjoyed this article and was impressed with how far the author
| got in each day's exploration.
|
| I always thought Plan9 should have had a comeback as part of the
| "Internet of Things" given its deep support for networking and
| its modest hardware requirements (it was designed in the 90s.)
| generalizations wrote:
| The problem is drivers. They haven't kept up so far as I know
| and the list of supported hardware is short. Personally I'd
| love for that to change, but it isn't something I can do.
| ori_b wrote:
| The list of supported hardware is short, but surprisingly
| accessible. We even managed to get arm64 support on the
| Raspberry pi before Ubuntu. :)
| enriquto wrote:
| let's make that happen! install a plan9 vm and start doing your
| regular work in there.
| runjake wrote:
| > This is a fringe Operating System
|
| No, TempleOS was a fringe operating system.
|
| Plan 9 was a legitimate research operating system developed by
| computer scientists who had a key role in the development of UNIX
| and other highly-regarded pieces of software.
|
| Plan 9-based technologies are a part of most, if not all,
| operating systems today (even Windows!).
|
| But, a fun article, and I'm always happy to see Plan 9 crop up
| from time to time. It's at risk of being forgotten, but shouldn't
| be.
| ChrisSD wrote:
| > It's at risk of being forgotten
|
| Not by HN at least. It comes up fairly regularly in one context
| or another. Though usually when someone is bemoaning some
| aspect of POSIX or Linux.
| MisterTea wrote:
| Plenty of people still interested but the community is small.
| It's far from dead or forgotten. 9front is updated on a near
| daily basis.
| Technically wrote:
| > Plan 9-based technologies are a part of most, if not all,
| operating systems today (even Windows!).
|
| 9p is indeed a great technology--I would have also thrown in
| utf-8--but most of plan9's ideas remain quite fringe. I would
| pay a _ton_ of money for an OS with both bind and browser
| support. Plumber is _still_ leagues better than anything
| offered by macs /linux/windows.
|
| That said, I don't see "fringe" as being mutually exclusive
| with "legitimate". TempleOS had some features that other OS's
| could use, too--its use of hyperlinking is actually really
| cool.
| iuguy wrote:
| > TempleOS had some features that other OS's could use, too--
| its use of hyperlinking is actually really cool.
|
| If you want to see what doldoc and plumbing in one system
| might look like, check out Oberon[1].
|
| [1] - http://ignorethecode.net/blog/2009/04/22/oberon/
| butterisgood wrote:
| 9p is being used by Microsoft in WSL2 to access host files
| from linux over v9fs - last time I looked anyway.
| the_only_law wrote:
| The more I read about some of the operating systems eventually
| died out (mostly), the more disappointed I am that the only
| realistic options for workstation/server OS's are Windows and a
| handful of Unix-like systems.
| flenserboy wrote:
| I would be very curious to see a list of features which were
| available in defunct OSes that are not available or only
| available via kludge these days. There are some great ideas
| still out there in the wild.
| jolmg wrote:
| I've heard wonders of Lisp OSes, but haven't tried one.
| rakoo wrote:
| BFS (the BeOS File System) had very cool features, especially
| for the time (see https://arstechnica.com/information-
| technology/2018/07/the-b...):
|
| - 64-bit, journaled, UTF-8 capable, extended attributes:
| things that are standard today but novel at the time
|
| - It had "live queries" meaning feeds into file changes.
| AFAIK only NTFS has that today with
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USN_Journal. Inotify is a hack:
| have you tried monitoring your root folder ?
| arexxbifs wrote:
| AmigaOS had (well, has, but it's pretty much defunct) a lot
| of interesting things such as ARexx, DataTypes, Assigns and a
| standardized software installer.
| nix23 wrote:
| Have a look at Multics and what Unix missed out implementing.
| VMS also really interesting. And for sure Plan9.
| pjmlp wrote:
| > Plan 9 is as filled with unpolished brilliance as Mozart's
| Requiem. It's the Sagrada Familia of Operating Systems. It's
| creators left long ago but people keep building on the scaffolds.
| If nothing else, it's a collection of fantastic ideas never
| intended for mass consumption. This is The Holy Mountain of
| Operating Systems.
|
| Yes, they moved into Inferno, and implemented Alef ideas in
| Limbo.
|
| http://www.vitanuova.com/inferno/
|
| The forgotten legacy from Plan 9 authors, and influence on Go
| original design.
| hemloc_io wrote:
| HA! This reminded me of the OS class I took in college.
|
| Every professor other than mine taught Linux, but he made us
| learn Inferno. (One of the best learning experiences of my time
| there!)
|
| If you're interested in the inner workings of Inferno he
| literally wrote the, only(?), book on it. There are a couple
| free excerpts available on his site.[0]
|
| [0] https://www.cs.drexel.edu/~bls96/
| jbgreer wrote:
| Your professor didn't start doing that at your university. I
| knew who you were talking about before even visiting your
| link, although the home directory sealed it: Brian Stuart.
| Very useful to study (and modify) a small OS.
| the_only_law wrote:
| Am I the only one who finds Inferno incredibly ugly compared
| Plan9's UI?
| octetta wrote:
| While I absolutely LOVE Inferno "philosophically", I agree it
| doesn't win UI beauty awards... the source is all there and I
| could probably show my love there by updating things.
| pjmlp wrote:
| A consequence of picking Tk as GUI toolkit, once loved across
| the UNIX world.
| MisterTea wrote:
| AFIK Inferno was a corporate reaction to Java and intended to
| be an actual competing product. Plan 9 development was halted
| for nearly a whole year as the team focused on building
| Inferno.
| gcblkjaidfj wrote:
| > Inferno was a corporate reaction to Java
|
| they even had a inferno-applet demo, which was a full VM in
| an activeX(?) container running on the browser.
| young_unixer wrote:
| 'Inferno' sounds pretty aggressive for something in the
| corporate market.
| butterisgood wrote:
| Inferno as in Dante's Inferno.
|
| The VM is called dis
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dis_(Divine_Comedy))
|
| The language is Limbo - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo
|
| The protocol is Styx - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styx
|
| The Divine Comedy all over the place.
| mrighele wrote:
| And I guess that the name of the company, Vita Nuova,
| comes from Dante's "La Vita Nuova"
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Vita_Nuova
| butterisgood wrote:
| Inferno is so cool... They just got a RISC-V compiler port too
| :-).
|
| I'd love to see an apple-silicon aarch64 version, or even an
| amd64 version (386 32 bit only I guess...)
|
| There's a bit of Limbo in go for sure (or alef, or just
| plan9port libthread channels)
| nix23 wrote:
| >Yes, they moved into Inferno, and implemented Alef ideas in
| Limbo.
|
| No to 9front, 9legacy AND Inferno.
| spijdar wrote:
| The _creators_ of plan9 are not involved in 9front, and I don
| 't think they were ever involved with 9legacy, unless I've
| missed something. I believe 9front's (rather colorful) user
| manual pointedly remarks that the original authors of plan9
| have long since abandoned the project.
| nix23 wrote:
| >The creators of plan9 are not involved in 9front
|
| Nor are they in Inferno anymore, but one big name Forsyth
| in 2017
| floren wrote:
| Pike, Thompson, Presotto, Collyer, McKie, none of these
| people contribute to either 9front or 9legacy, beyond
| providing the original Plan 9 code base which underlies all
| the forks.
| nix23 wrote:
| And nor do they to inferno:
|
| https://bitbucket.org/inferno-os/inferno-os/commits/?page=3
| pjmlp wrote:
| No one is speaking about the present.
|
| Plan 9 and Inferno are done, historical OSes to learn
| from and apply in new OS designs.
| hbiden2020 wrote:
| Hunter Biden's child porn is on twitter.
|
| Arrest Hunter Biden! Arrest Jack Dorsey!
| jsolson wrote:
| It's not entirely abandoned. A few years ago Brad Fitzpatrick
| dropped by my desk because the latest Google Compute Engine
| virtualization stack rollout had broken Plan 9 on GCE. This was
| interfering with cutting a new Go release (the official releases
| ran on VMs running Plan 9). I don't remember the specific
| breakage, but that was the day we added Plan 9 to the stable of
| operating systems we run in our CI regression suite against new
| VM releases.
|
| I don't know if the Go releases are still done on Plan 9, but it
| seems likely that's still an active use of the OS.
| MisterTea wrote:
| > I don't know if the Go releases are still done on Plan 9, but
| it seems likely that's still an active use of the OS.
|
| Go still builds. It's just difficult to build it out of the box
| on 9 because of bootstrap issues. Though not sure if the latest
| 9 build bug was squashed.
| ori_b wrote:
| Yes, it is working on the latest releases. Note that for
| 9front tip, there's one small patch that you need:
| https://github.com/golang/go/pull/43533
| jeromenerf wrote:
| Some people in the go team were indeed part of the plan9 team,
| Rob Pike and Russ Cox to mention a few.
|
| Iirc Russ Cox ported Plan9 userspace to Linux when he moved to
| google, somehow out of frustration. Thanks for that, using acme
| on Unix is like a hot summer late afternoon fresh beer. Or
| whatever fresh beverage of your fancy.
| simias wrote:
| I like minimalist and sometimes esoteric dev environments but
| I must confess that I just don't get acme. I know that some
| people swear by it but it's hard for me not to think that
| it's the programming equivalent of listening to music on
| vinyls.
|
| For one thing it's extremely mouse-driven, which is already
| disqualifying in my book but to each their own.
|
| The whole "anything can be a tag and you can execute it by
| clicking the middle mouse button" can seem novel and exciting
| if you've never used Emacs, which did the whole "everything
| is configurable and scriptable" a long time ago and IMO
| better.
|
| Then the lack of syntax highlighting is pure elitism in my
| book. I tried to give that a chance but when you listen to
| the arguments of its proponents it often boils down to
| "colors are childish" and "books are black on white and we
| read those just fine" which makes complete sense unless you
| think about it for two seconds.
|
| I genuinely don't get it. When I first read a Vi(m) tutorial
| it seemed esoteric, complicated and weird, but I understood
| why some people found it more efficient that way. Watching
| somebody explain acme reminds me of TempleOS, filled with
| weird idiosyncrasies of dubious usefulness while lacking
| super basic features.
| egypturnash wrote:
| "books are black on white and we read those just fine"
|
| Now I wanna see a B&W syntax highlighting setup that uses
| all the tools available to a book. Font sizes,
| bold/italics, the use of display fonts here and there,
| including Comic Sans to highlight Really Bad Ideas...
| oxford_comma wrote:
| Haha. I love the syntax highlighting debate.
|
| I dropped syntax highlighting a few years ago. My thoughts
| on it are not "colors are childish" and "books are black on
| white and we read those just fine." I don't like the
| computer trying to convey what is important in my text
| files to me via color. What I think is important and what
| the computer thinks is important is often different. Then
| why don't I configure my syntax highlighter to agree with
| me? It's just another configuration file to keep in sync on
| the computers I use, and :syntax off is right there... It's
| the nuclear option for being annoyed that comments are
| shown in light gray.
| floren wrote:
| Acme on Unix is almost as good as Acme on Plan 9, but I can't
| stress enough how great it is on a real Plan 9 system inside
| rio.
|
| p9p acme does introduce multi-line tag displays, though,
| which is hugely convenient when I want to keep track of lots
| of line numbers or hold a bunch of Edit commands.
| sleepydog wrote:
| The multi-line tag also helps a lot outside of plan9
| because the file paths on plan9 tend to be shorter thanks
| to the per-process namespaces. e.g. instead of
| /home/$user/projects/foo you can just bind that to /prj/foo
| or whatever you like.
| butterisgood wrote:
| Plan9Port works on Mac OS, Linux, several BSDs etc, and I'm
| nearly 100% certain existed before Russ moved to google.
|
| It pre-dates Go by a bit for sure, and Go was already
| underway at Google with Rob Pike before Russ came over (per
| my recollection).
|
| That said, I too use plan9port, on my mac, for Acme mainly.
|
| Russ just fixed up the thread library so it works more
| uniformly (and correctly) on all platforms - including Apple
| Silicon.
| octetta wrote:
| I saw the thread fix-up recently. Based on the comments, it
| seems setcontext/getcontext versus pthreads is becoming
| less of an issue these days.
| butterisgood wrote:
| Well one is supposed to implement cooperatively scheduled
| coroutines, and the other is pthreads.
| jsolson wrote:
| I certainly knew about the connections between Go (and so
| very much other stuff at Google) and Plan 9. I was surprised,
| at the time, to see the OS itself in use in a production
| role. Just another example of unexpected tools getting the
| job done.
| butterisgood wrote:
| Coraid produces ATA over Ethernet storage platforms
| shipping their own fork of Plan 9 on the devices.
|
| If I had a need for it, or could justify the cash, I'd get
| one just to play around!
| rbanffy wrote:
| I once almost bought a massive Xerox printer from a
| graphics shop that was decommissioning it. It had a Xerox
| Star (running some specialized software) for its brains.
|
| In the end, the workstation was so completely fused to
| the printer I'd end with a car-sized workstation.
| deckard1 wrote:
| Google+ wasn't good for much, but following Rob Pike was
| always interesting as he was doing Plan 9 stuff and talking
| about Go often on there. Linus Torvalds also frequently
| posted on G+ and was interesting. Twitter just doesn't fill
| that same space.
| Technically wrote:
| I know that Russ Cox & Rob Pike both still use plan9.
| housel wrote:
| Do we know what distribution they use?
| michaelhoffman wrote:
| > 9Front And Surprise Auschwitz
|
| What the actual fuck. At first I thought this was some joke in
| poor taste by the blog post, but in fact he is referring to the
| use of Nazi death camp imagery in the documentation. That's not
| cool.
| khm wrote:
| Hi. I made that image. I was searching for 'rails
| documentation' and accidentally hit the 'Images' link. That
| photo was in the first page of results. Its presence was so
| absurd and out of place that I felt like I had to do something
| with it. It was made in an era before actual Nazis had re-
| entered the public dialogue, so it felt like Google Image
| Search was denigrating Ruby on Rails by including this sort of
| imagery in the results.
|
| Generally speaking, 4chan types read it as an endorsement,
| which sucks. More recently, people who are not assholes have
| _also_ begun to read it as an endorsement, which is even more
| unfortunate.
|
| I had a conversation on Mastodon with the author, where I
| explained some of this, but the author's followers filled my
| client with Nazi (and more) accusations, and then the author
| started demanding names of responsible parties and I didn't
| really feel like he was engaging in good faith. Probably could
| have gone better, but here we are.
|
| This whole sort of thing has led to much confusion, which is
| why over the years the project home page has sprouted explicit
| anti-Nazi and Black Lives Matter links. As far as I am aware,
| there are no anti-semites (or other brands of racist) involved
| in the project.
|
| and an edit: A couple of replies here ask the reasonable
| question: "why not just remove the image?" Bluntly, if we
| removed everything that confused or angered people, it would be
| a full-time job. It's more likely that we'll include some
| version of the above in order to further clarify our rejection
| of Nazi values and provide the context that was missing.
|
| Besides, if we just delete the damn thing then the next message
| will be "9front devs are secret Nazis, look at archive.org" --
| we've been down this road before with other contentious
| content.
| cycloptic wrote:
| Can you please just remove the image? The context is obscure
| and long gone, and I doubt there is any way for an outsider
| to see it as anything other than a hateful meme targeted at
| ruby, given the context of the rest of the memes on that
| page.
|
| Edit to respond to your edit: please can you commit to
| removing or changing anything else in your documentation that
| confuses or angers people? I think you have an understanding
| that having good quality, accessible documentation is
| important. So why not commit to having that? It's entirely
| what documentation writers are supposed to do. It doesn't
| have to be a full time job unless someone wants it to be, you
| can do the process of improving things slowly, one step at a
| time with everyone chipping in. Do you really want things to
| stop here where some of your documentation pages look like a
| twitter feed?
|
| And I say this because I think it's somewhat of an
| inevitability -- over time, someone has to remove the memes
| and in-jokes. There is no way a newcomer is ever going to
| understand what they all mean. Yes people can look in
| archive.org but that's less important than what's actively on
| the website.
| aflag wrote:
| If the other stuff that upsets people are of the same
| caliber, you should definitely take the time to remove them
| too.
| shakingmyhead wrote:
| except you aren't being asked to remove everything that
| offends anyone, you are specifically being asked to remove
| this one instance of holocaust imagery. You are hiding behind
| a slippery slope fallacy to avoid doing this. You can remove
| the image then immediately go back to your policy of not
| removing things. see how easy that was? And as for people
| complaining about archive.org, can't you just ignore them
| like you are ignoring this? Your logic doesn't hold up. You
| either don't want to admit you were wrong or you just don't
| want to remove the image period. That's your decision but you
| should have the guts to stand behind it.
| khm wrote:
| I don't want to just silently remove the image. I'm not in
| the habit of editing myself to suit the passersby. I do
| think the image should be provided with context. It is not
| the only thing associated with 9front that people have
| targeted for removal.
|
| I am not 'ignoring this.' I am addressing it right here,
| and on Mastodon. I enjoy it when Internet people make
| throwaway accounts to accuse me of cowardice, but I'm
| confused about which 'guts' I'm lacking. Is it the one
| where I did something, took responsibility for it,
| explained my actions, and then engaged in conversation with
| people who were concerned about my motives?
| na85 wrote:
| This is a weird flex, to choose to dig your heels in on
| this particular image/issue.
| khm wrote:
| Given a choice between deleting things that might make me
| look bad and explaining the choices that I make, I will
| always choose the latter. It's the only surefire
| opportunity for me to learn.
| shakingmyhead wrote:
| I suspect he doesn't want to face the fact that it was
| maybe a bad idea in the first place. It's hard to own up
| to mistakes. I've been there.
| basscomm wrote:
| I suspect that the argument of "You should violate your
| personal principles because I want you to (just this once
| for me, and then you can go back to not violating them)"
| coming from an anonymous account on an internet message
| board is too flimsy to consider.
| shakingmyhead wrote:
| I think his principled stance that his contributions to
| an open source project have to include holocaust jokes is
| not very compelling or principled.
| shakingmyhead wrote:
| It's where you claimed you couldn't remove it because
| then people would make more demands of you. That's the
| gutless part. Hiding behind a hypothetical. Glad I could
| clear it up. Also this is my first hacker news account
| not a throwaway.
| iuguy wrote:
| > then the author started demanding names of responsible
| parties
|
| Kurt, so good to see you again! As I said in:
| https://mastodon.social/@stevelord/105510076754785649
|
| > Was it Uriel that committed that section? I could kind of
| understand not wanting to remove it if it was. If that's the
| case then context in the FQA might be helpful for people who
| stumble across it.
|
| That's hardly demanding names, unless you're referring to
| somewhere else in the convo. In that case please feel free to
| point it out.
| khm wrote:
| There's also this:
| https://mastodon.social/@stevelord/105510025405203167 which
| I interpreted as some kind of invitation to disavow the
| project and name 'the real villains' or something, which
| would of course be the same deal.
|
| The whole vibe just felt like it was more about who did
| what than what any of it was supposed to mean, which isn't
| really how we operate in general.
| pvg wrote:
| 'vibe' seems like an odd concern what with the imagery of
| an extermination camp
| iuguy wrote:
| > There's also this:
| https://mastodon.social/@stevelord/105510025405203167
| which I interpreted as some kind of invitation to disavow
| the project and name 'the real villains' or something,
| which would of course be the same deal.
|
| Sure, I can see that and thanks for raising that. It
| wasn't intended that way but I can see how it came
| across. Some mediums are just poor for discussion and
| text is always poor for expressing context.
|
| > The whole vibe just felt like it was more about who did
| what than what any of it was supposed to mean, which
| isn't really how we operate in general.
|
| I got that sense from you at the time. I get that you've
| all been attacked heavily at different points. I don't
| think there's any way you couldn't have felt that vibe.
| I've seen people call you guys out to me since on a scale
| that I've not seen elsewhere.
|
| The bit I didn't know is the how you operate in general.
| As an outsider that's just not info I have.
|
| I genuinely had links and samples for Appendix L's C
| section - if you look at the post you'll see the drawing
| screenshot and references to building blocks. Not knowing
| how you guys worked, I perhaps wrongly assumed that this
| might've been welcome, but wasn't comfortable putting it
| in with that image there. I genuinely wasn't trying to
| gotcha you.
| khm wrote:
| This was the other post, which I had trouble finding
| quickly:
| https://mastodon.social/@stevelord/105510258237207655
|
| I'm sure you can imagine how I received that: "we don't
| care what you actually believe, we only care about
| appendix L of the documentation."
|
| People have been calling us Nazis since day one -- we
| have several German developers so we make VW and BMW
| jokes about 'German engineering' and of course all the
| early-cold-war German rocket scientists. It's the reason
| we've got the photo of Bowie at Victoria Station --
| photographed while waving to the crowd, he had to
| repeatedly deny being a Nazi afterward, because it sure
| looked like a Nazi salute in the photo.
|
| Once the actual Nazis started showing up we had to get
| more explicit in our condemnation of their evil, and
| that's okay -- rejecting hate is the easy part. Defending
| ourselves against the people we agree with is much
| harder.
| iuguy wrote:
| > I'm sure you can imagine how I received that
|
| Yeah I can see that now. Thanks. I guess once you process
| the first bit that way the rest drops off.
|
| By the no nazis bit not meaning anything what I meant
| there was that with everything else it can be hard to
| tell what's intentional on the site and what isn't.
|
| I honestly don't care who calls you guys nazis or not.
| Even if I wanted to (which I don't, I gain nothing by
| doing so) I wouldn't need to. There are plenty of people
| doing that already. The harder thing to do is to try to
| understand without pre-judging. Thanks for clearing a lot
| of this up.
|
| EDIT: I noticed this in another subthread:
|
| > I do think the image should be provided with context.
|
| I'm editing here because I don't want to add to the pile-
| on in the other thread. You mentioned this above:
|
| > Once the actual Nazis started showing up we had to get
| more explicit in our condemnation of their evil
|
| If you want to keep the picture, what would your thoughts
| be on a log of that condemnation linked from somewhere in
| the FQA? Not necessarily Appendix L. No skin off my nose
| either way but I thought I'd mention it in case nobody
| had thought of it.
| khm wrote:
| We've been discussing it; we'll probably remove the image
| but add the context. Next time you find something that
| makes you like this, would you please send a patch (or at
| least report a bug)? It's sheer chance that I ran across
| your original Mastodon post at all.
| qwaladuk wrote:
| "Bluntly, if we removed everything that confused or angered
| people, it would be a full-time job. It's more likely that
| we'll include some version of the above in order to further
| clarify our rejection of Nazi values and provide the context
| that was missing."
|
| Bluntly, this is just a lame excuse. Where i live, denying
| the holocaust and related actions are considered criminal
| offenses that can land you in jail for quite some time. While
| this picture might not be seen as such by itself, what else
| am i to expect from a project that does something like this?
| It sure sends some very bad vibes.
|
| So please, just remove the image. There are no arguments for
| keeping it.
| yellowapple wrote:
| Since when is displaying literal photographic evidence of
| the Holocaust "denying the holocaust"?
| hencq wrote:
| I don't really understand why you wouldn't just remove the
| image then. I get that you added it for its absurdity, but if
| many people take it as an endorsement, isn't it just a joke
| that didn't land? Personally I think it's a joke in poor
| taste, but even if you don't, it seems like such a weird hill
| to die on.
| chaganated wrote:
| Some people watch too much History Channel. My first thought
| on that page was, " _These people must hate rails as much as
| I do._ "
| NelsonMinar wrote:
| It's hideous. What the fuck is wrong with people?
| iuguy wrote:
| _ahem_
| http://code.9front.org/hg/plan9front/log?rev=mein+kampf
| ori_b wrote:
| Yes, the person who committed it was a high school teenager
| at the time. Maturity and good taste isn't generally
| associated with high schoolers. It was tasteless. And it
| was reverted.
|
| My family is full of holocaust survivors. My grandmother
| passed through Auschwitz. 10 of her 12 siblings did not.
|
| I am fairly heavily involved in 9front. I have never had
| any issues with anyone in that project -- certainly none to
| do with antisemitism.
| iuguy wrote:
| If you feel you have to tell me that your family is full
| of holocaust survivors before you tell me you're involved
| in a software distro, something is very wrong. This is
| software not biker gangs. I'm not judging you. I hope you
| understand that. One or two other people maybe, but not
| you.
|
| I've not called anyone a Nazi. I didn't commit Mein Kampf
| twice. I didn't put an Auschwitz joke in the manual.
| Neither did you.
|
| It was this[1] that convinced me to spend time with Plan
| 9. I've spoken to some really nice 9Front users and
| contributors. I've read and watched cool things by people
| like mycroft, Sigrid and yourself. Then at the other end
| of the scale there's this:
|
| _ahem_ http://code.9front.org/hg/fqa.9front.org/log?rev=
| rails.jpg
|
| And for shits and giggles, this:
|
| _ahem_
| http://code.9front.org/hg/fqa.9front.org/rev/2c6ef22d5a74
|
| For every person you explain to, there are many more who
| just call you all a bunch of Nazis. People have slid into
| my DMs and just outright openly called everyone in 9Front
| nazis for over a week now. The idea is ridiculous yet it
| persists. That's obviously not the association you want
| for yourself, but it's one you're aware of or you
| wouldn't be here.
|
| It's happening right now here:
| https://mastodon.social/@Ludonaut/105555232277945673 -
| that's just one place, there are plenty others. My
| Signal's full of it, Telegram too. Memes, some pretty
| personal, the lot.
|
| You can't whack-a-mole that association. All you can do
| is choose to change it or choose to own it.
|
| EDIT: Seems I can't reply to Ori directly so here it is:
| No I'm not insinuating you're a Nazi sympathizer. I
| wouldn't. The whole point of my reply is that you are not
| and I know you are not but lots of others won't draw that
| conclusion and you won't be able to correct them all. If
| I thought you were involved in that sort of shit I'd come
| straight out with it.
|
| Ok Ori, you believe what you want to believe. I've been
| 100% up-front about everything so far. If you're relying
| on insinuations then you're reading into stuff that just
| isn't there. You're the third 9Front guy to come at me,
| and I'm done trying to be polite about it so I'll
| withdraw.
|
| [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m3GuoaxRNM
| [deleted]
| ori_b wrote:
| > _If you feel you have to tell me that your family is
| full of holocaust survivors before you tell me you 're
| involved in a software distro, something is very wrong._
|
| Let me put it another way: You are insinuating that I'm a
| nazi sympathizer. That is indeed very wrong, and the
| statement above is directly related to the insinuation I
| was responding to.
|
| Please state your insinuations out loud. Then get fucked.
|
| Edit:
|
| > _EDIT: Seems I can 't reply to Ori directly so here it
| is: No I'm not insinuating you're a Nazi sympathizer. I
| wouldn't. If I thought you were I'd come straight out
| with it._
|
| Great. You're implying something you don't even claim to
| believe. Take some responsibility for your words.
|
| If you think the accusations are "ridiculous", why are
| you doing your best to amplify them?
|
| You are being incredibly slimy.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| bzb6 wrote:
| Not everybody shares your sensibilities.
| ThankYouBernard wrote:
| yes most people don't have the sensibility of a Nazi
| [deleted]
| 4bpp wrote:
| Considering the ubiquitous Touhou references
| (https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Cirno#Personality), I would
| assume that the project is at least 4chan-adjacent (or at least
| adjacent to the culture of 4chan's early days; the demographic
| transition from people pretending to be [bad thing] to actual
| [bad thing] people who are not in on the joke is a matter of
| internet lore). This makes it quite likely that this is exactly
| the reaction the authors were hoping for, with the intention of
| keeping out the first group in the blog post's trichotomy
| ("Those who won't use 9Front because of it, those whose choice
| is unaffected by it, and those feeling welcomed by it.").
| MisterTea wrote:
| > (or at least adjacent to the culture of 4chan's early days;
| ...
|
| From what I hear /g/ was a decent place to talk technology
| around 2010 or whenever and this is where the gross chan
| culture supposedly comes from.
| seabird wrote:
| I would go so far as to say that 9front's marketing works to
| try and attract only the second group in that trichotomy. The
| first page is footed with BLM and antifascist logos. Plan 9
| is everything an old-school 4chan technology poster is
| interested in, and they're hard-wired to offend through
| whatever means possible.
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