[HN Gopher] Workaholism Leads to Mental and Physical Health Prob...
___________________________________________________________________
Workaholism Leads to Mental and Physical Health Problems
Author : rustoo
Score : 318 points
Date : 2021-01-13 16:08 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.hse.ru)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.hse.ru)
| SNosTrAnDbLe wrote:
| This paper has some red flags and it would be great if someone
| who has experience with this domain provides more light.
|
| 1) The original paper is at
| https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/17/20/7594
|
| 2) The paper was written based on the findings of the software
| https://wittyfit.com/ The sample is not random in any sense as it
| looks like its based on 187 people who are using this software.
| Correlation != Causation.
| rimiform wrote:
| It would be interesting to see the literature evolve beyond the
| current (simplistic) model of workaholism. The current paper
| isn't super clear on what their working definition is (to me),
| but seems to be "a compulsion or an uncontrollable need to work
| incessantly".
|
| How does that relate to actual work demands? The paper says that
| the effort put in must beyond what is "necessary", but this is
| pretty vague, and would seem off in different contexts. Am I a
| studyholic if I study for an A instead of a simply 'sufficient'
| C? Should we call parents who stay up helping their kids finish a
| school project due tomorrow parentaholics? What is the 'correct'
| amount of effort to be expended so that the scientific literature
| won't label you as having a mental health problem?
|
| Aside from that, can this even be extricated from simple
| enjoyment of work? One cited paper says:
|
| > Cantarow (1979) suggests that workaholics are those who seek
| passionate involvement and gratification from working. Finally,
| it has been observed that hard-workers often use the word 'fun'
| to describe their work experiences (Kiechel, 1989; Machlowitz,
| 1980). Thus, it seems that workaholics typically find working
| pleasurable.
|
| The horror! From that same cited paper:
|
| > Therefore, in this paper, workaholics are defined as those who
| enjoy the act of working, who are obsessed with working, and who
| devote long hours and personal time to work. In short,
| workaholics are those whose emotions, thoughts, and behaviors are
| strongly dominated by their work.
|
| If I actually enjoy my job, _of course_ I 'm going to spend more
| time on it! And if I don't like to exercise, or play parent, or
| if I only eat what I need to keep me alive, that's going to look
| like workaholism, even though it's just someone doing what they
| enjoy as much as they can. That's going to lead to neglect of
| other things, because there are only so many hours in a day.
| That's an important part of the definition, by the way,
| _neglecting_ "other parts of life" is seen as a central component
| of workaholism, but this obviously applies to every activity, be
| it studying, exercising, parenting, whatever. Are we supposed to
| think up a portmanteau for each of these to signify individuals
| who 'overindulge' by our judgment?
| haram_masala wrote:
| I honestly think my mental and physical health are so much better
| than they should be at my age because I don't take work as
| seriously as my colleagues. Though, I'm fairly certain I've
| missed out on a few promotions.
| pbrb wrote:
| I'm with you this. I still do work very hard and definitely too
| much, but I made a decision in my mid 20s to never let work
| stress actually affect me. Or, at least try not to. I think it
| actually helped me get promoted when working at startups, but
| now that I'm working at an 'elite' company, I've definitely
| missed out on promotions. I'm just not willing to work 14 hr
| days, every day, to hit arbitrary dates on a calendar.
| ggm wrote:
| We're stuck on the hourly rate.
|
| The idea of saying "work only 3 or 4 days a week" invites the
| immediate fear "but how will I survive on less pay"
|
| Try on for size: "work only 4 days. we're not cutting your pay"
| hehehaha wrote:
| Working yourself to death is a real thing. And often times,
| people are forced into these tracks due to competition and
| pressure. At some point I came to a conclusion that competition
| does not bring out the best in people and I refuse to work in a
| contrived environment where such behaviors are encouraged.
| nomy99 wrote:
| I literally worked till I dropped during the holidays. I was
| committing code, got up to stretch, hit my head on furniture and
| passed out lol. I don't think I am workaholic. This happened
| because the project was mismanaged and failure to delivery would
| cost the company a large sum of money (due to contract
| negotiations with vendors etc)
| dunemaster wrote:
| As a freelance concept artist and illustrator I pull regular all
| nighters but when I'm into the zone drawing worlds and characters
| from pure imagination, I lose track of time and space. After some
| time of not sleeping it feels like my head is floating mid air, I
| don't know which day of the week it is and the last time I looked
| out the window the sun was going up, now it's early morning
| again. It doesn't interfere with my life because art completes
| and lifts me into a higher state of consciousness. It's rare and
| remarkable
| yobert wrote:
| Programming does this for me too. I think it's as important to
| make space for this in your life, as it is to make space for
| other things too.
|
| I believe doing work at that level of immersion is actually
| hugely beneficial to your life and mental health. There was
| just an article on HN the other day about a 104 year old
| submitting his PHD thesis. Super cool!
| bsharitt wrote:
| I can sort of understand people who own their own businesses or
| otherwise have jobs where the amount they put in is directly
| related to how much they get back putting in tons of hours and
| basically centering their life around their work, but I can't
| quite figure out regular salaried employee workaholics.
| random5634 wrote:
| I'm in the have high job demands and high job control situation,
| it's still totally miserable.
|
| Good article.
| brundolf wrote:
| > There are potential reasons for that: financial problems, ...
|
| Does it really count as an addiction if you're doing it because
| of genuine financial problems? I always thought of proper
| workaholism as an unhealthy addiction to the dopamine rush you
| get when you're successful at your job. I've experienced a mild
| version of this in the past when I didn't have enough else that
| was fulfilling me in my life; like many addictions, it was a
| crutch against depression.
| nprateem wrote:
| *aholisms are normally so good for your health. Who knew?!
| ojnabieoot wrote:
| The most important point from the study:
|
| > We found that job demands could be the most important factor
| that can develop work addiction risk. So this factor should be
| controlled or should be investigated by the organization's
| manager, for example, HR staff, psychologists.
|
| My last job could be described as "workaholism" but what was
| really going on was
|
| 1) my manager had a toxic relationship with their manager and
| were unfairly overworked
|
| 2) they passed this attitude on to their subordinates
|
| 3) the really ugly part: although my manager had high
| _expectations_ , they were not very good about actual
| enforcement, so work from "underperforming" (< 45 hr/week)
| teammates was dumped onto "adequate" (> 60 hrs) employees,
| without any planning or accountability - or, crucially, any
| flexibility. I had never had a boss who took less responsibility
| for their worker's projects.
|
| Speaking for myself: I have a serious mental illness and not a
| lot of economic stability. So although I am a decent programmer
| (when I am well) I am very susceptible to stress-related
| illnesses. In November and December I ended up losing about 20%
| of my body weight, entirely due to work stress, and had to
| resign. I really tried my best to get my boss to listen and
| didn't have the heart or strength to drag them into HR :(
|
| Just an ugly situation when managers don't take responsibility
| for the health of their employees. Especially when the issue is
| their own stress and inexperience versus greed.
| wincy wrote:
| After our second daughter was born with a disability and we
| didn't know if she'd make it to her first birthday I threw myself
| into my new job utterly. I was working 7-7 almost every day, took
| every opportunity to travel, and in general was absent from the
| situation as much as my "very important job" would allow.
|
| For me I felt completely powerless at the hospital. At work I got
| to solve "important" problems that were trivial in comparison to
| the things I had no control over, and was rewarded for doing so.
| It felt good to be useful when my life felt in complete chaos
| outside of work.
|
| At one point I stayed up all night to wrap up a project that
| wasn't even that important. My boss, rather than being happy with
| me, sat me down and said I needed to make sure to sleep and take
| care of myself, that I was going to burn myself out. I really
| appreciate him saying that in retrospect, even though I felt a
| little offended at the time. I try to balance work and home life,
| and have developed a great relationship with my daughter, now
| two.
|
| In retrospect I wish I'd had the emotional stability to spend
| more time at the hospital, and to provide more emotional support
| for my wife who was saddled with going to the hospital almost
| every day.
|
| Things are better now, our daughter is doing very well, but the
| workaholism can be because of external factors, as overworking
| made me able to ignore the other, more depressing parts of my
| life where I lacked control.
| zaczekadam wrote:
| Wow, that feels relatable. Glad your family is doing better
| now!
| jolmg wrote:
| I don't know the specifics, but if the extra work meant more
| money, that might've been a good way help the situation by
| ensuring there was more money to address the medical costs or
| allow more availability for your wife to attend to your
| daughter.
| wincy wrote:
| At least in Kansas, because she's permanently disabled she'll
| have Medicaid as secondary insurance until she's an adult. It
| covers the nightly nursing care, she has central sleep apnea
| and can't yet tolerate a full mask so someone has to watch
| her at night to make sure she doesn't forget to breathe. We
| don't even have to pay copays for her doctors visits. We get
| the EOB with the costs paid sometimes and my eyes about pop
| out of my head at how expensive a week at the children's
| hospital is.
|
| Surprisingly enough, because I was unemployed the day she was
| born, even if she hadn't been disabled the birth would have
| been "free" (no out of pocket costs to me or my wife) because
| neither parent was employed when she was born.
| fairity wrote:
| I'd try not to beat yourself up over this too much. As you've
| described, you had little to no control over the situation. In
| cases like this, I think it's often actually healthy to focus
| on things you do control (so long as it's not at the detriment
| to your overall health/well-being).
| agumonkey wrote:
| We all learn lessons as we go. Working probably saved you some
| bits too, it's a compromise. Your boss was very empathetic.
|
| Best wishes for the rest.
| stroz wrote:
| Glad to hear your daughter is doing well! Your story really
| captures a lot about the experience of attempting to find some
| sense of control in a situation where you feel powerless. What
| do you think it would have taken to develop the emotional
| stability to approach this differently (i.e. being able to show
| up at the hospital) or do you believe that experience is the
| only way to learn some of these lessons?
| wincy wrote:
| I don't really know. I have a few ideas though based on my
| experience.
|
| Our friends and extended family disappeared as soon as our
| daughter was born. I don't know if it's American culture or
| what, but people get extremely uncomfortable around people
| who are mourning or going through trials in their lives.
| People sort of blank out then don't hang out with you
| anymore, or even invite you to things. After all, you're
| going through a lot, we'll just give you plenty of space.
|
| The hospitals do their absolute best to isolate you too,
| unless you wanna go talk to the psychiatrist and get some
| medication. Groups would come to volunteer and make food for
| the parents of the patients (Taco Tuesday every day, it was
| kind of awful), and they'd laugh and joke around and high
| five each other for being so great volunteering (or at least
| that's how it felt), while interacting with us people eating
| as much as possible. Somehow it made me feel worse.
|
| My wife got "tattled on" a few times by medical staff when
| she'd cry, such as when they said our daughter was terminal.
| It was infuriating that perfectly healthy grief gets you
| immediately referred to a psychiatrist.
|
| Honestly being at work was nice because I could do normal
| stuff and have normal social interactions. At the hospital
| they constantly cycle the staff through, so you don't have
| the same doctor more than two weeks, or the same nurse more
| than a couple days. I guess the trauma of being around dying
| babies is just too much.
|
| With a couple of notable exceptions on my wife's side of the
| family, we felt completely isolated and alone. I can't say
| for sure but I think having a strong network of people who
| actually gave a shit (or even acted like they do) would have
| done wonders for my mental health. Then again I have a
| sneaking suspicion that would solve most mental health issues
| for a lot of people.
|
| The whole ordeal has made me much more distant from my
| brothers and sisters and mother, unfortunately.
| [deleted]
| fatnoah wrote:
| >For me I felt completely powerless at the hospital. At work I
| got to solve "important" problems that were trivial in
| comparison to the things I had no control over, and was
| rewarded for doing so. It felt good to be useful when my life
| felt in complete chaos outside of work.
|
| Wow, did this resonate with me. In my case, I was suffering
| from depression, though I didn't realize it at the time. The
| extreme focus required by work distracted me from how miserable
| I was. I dreaded going home and constantly came up with excuses
| to go to the office on weekends.
| bitbuilder wrote:
| I'm sure a lot of us can relate.
|
| One of my best memories from my career: I was sitting at my
| desk at 8pm "working" because I had "so much to do". When in
| reality I was just dreading going home. A coworker that I
| barely new dropped by my desk and said "Things aren't going
| well at home, are they? Me either." We proceeded to head
| across the street to a bar to share stories. It helped
| immensely at that time.
|
| I make an effort to pay it forward. If you see someone in the
| office at all hours, especially when wfh is an option, odds
| are good things aren't going great for them. Even just a
| simple "How are things going with you?" over the water cooler
| can go a long ways.
| scarby2 wrote:
| > One of my best memories from my career: I was sitting at
| my desk at 8pm "working" because I had "so much to do".
| When in reality I was just dreading going home.
|
| This used to be a daily thing for me. I would stay at the
| office from 10 am to 10pm most days not really working but
| i just didn't want to go home.
| agumonkey wrote:
| I wonder if other cultures or other eras knew how to deal
| with that better.
|
| Ignoring and distracting problems through side gigs...
| ct0 wrote:
| Reminds me a lot of this document :
| http://www.structuredprocrastination.com/
| vmception wrote:
| I was most focused on my career after a breakup. The structure
| of the work environment coupled with the reward is pretty
| unparalleled.
|
| Other things I can think of with structure usually have a kind
| of endless goal that can't be spent at your discretion. Rehab,
| fitness, organized religion. I've never done rehab, but it
| seems to overlap with fitness where even if you gamify it with
| achievements, its not like a game at all because you have to do
| the same achievement the next day and forever.
|
| The earnings, advancement, structure and distraction do have
| their place especially when your personal relationships and
| life isn't going the way you want it.
| trianglem wrote:
| I find all of this so hard to relate with. I've worked for a
| decade, have a high paying job and have been promoted
| multiple times but to me none of it is enjoyable. I don't
| think I could ever be happy in a situation where I'm required
| to do something for 9 hours everyday. I can't get around the
| idea that all of this a weak abstraction to make money and
| care very little for approval from authority figures.
| astura wrote:
| Work makes a great distraction for someone who is very
| unhappy with their family life, has a _lot_ of emotional
| suffering, or when someone feels entirely powerless over
| their life circumstances. The more you work the more you
| feel in control, and /or the more you distract yourself
| from your feelings. The pay and job duties don't matter so
| much, I know someone who is a workaholic on low paid low
| skill job.
|
| If you don't have those personal issues, then yeah, you'd
| find it hard to relate to.
| vmception wrote:
| Person you replied to here: my fulfillment with employment
| was temporary. Like I said, I was - past tense - _most_
| fulfilled after a breakup, for some time.
|
| I worked for other people during internships for a few
| years and after college for about 5 years before hitting a
| homerun. I've never done anything for a decade and would
| imagine being unfulfilled by that kind of conscription. I'm
| not the kind of person content with just a job, and I
| always loathed and scoffed at the surrogate "family" that
| some corporate environment and startup founders try to
| create.
| whatshisface wrote:
| What's common among the rest of the commenters is that the
| rest of their life was rendered emotionally uninhabitable.
| If you had nothing positive outside of work, maybe you
| would see it the same way they did.
| jolmg wrote:
| > If you had nothing positive outside of work
|
| Rather than having nothing positive, I think it's having
| negatives that they can't otherwise control.
| jdsalaro wrote:
| > Rather than having nothing positive, I think it's
| having negatives that they can't otherwise control.
|
| Not OP, but this critique revolves mostly around
| semantics and I don't find it useful or accurate. If, big
| if, they had _something_ positive to look up to outside
| of work, they 'd be less inclined to put all their energy
| into work. That'd be the case even with multiple
| negatives they couldn't control. In other words, it's the
| total lack of any and all upside outside of work rather
| than the existence of downsides that makes people feel
| powerless and depressed.
| jolmg wrote:
| I make the distinction from a period of my own life. I
| also avoided going home despite having many positives
| because particular uncontrollable negatives held me back.
| I had many reasons to want to go back, but damn if I had
| to face the negatives.
| filoleg wrote:
| As someone who currently has a pretty emotionally stable
| life and can totally relate to how you feel right now, I
| think the "emotionally stable" part is what prevents you
| from relating to the parent comment.
|
| Back when I had a lot of emotionally turbulent events
| happening in my life, I was in the same boat as the parent
| comment you are replying to. Things in life going extremely
| sideways and leaving me heartbroken/depressed were what
| pushed me to that same kind of workaholism described above.
| Every single significant side project I wrote was during
| some awful-feeling events happening in my life. Those were
| also the times when I spent the least time doing "fun"
| things (e.g., videogames), because I just didn't feel like
| it.
|
| That drive for me had nothing to do with the actual desire
| to make money or have career advancement, it was just a
| mirage. In fact, I would say I have more of the actual
| desire to make more money and advance in career when I am
| in "good times", but the drive isn't quite there. But when
| the "bad times" come, I have no actual desire for
| money/career advancement. I do however get that insane
| intrinsic drive to just get away from all the "bad things"
| in life at that time by diving deep into
| working/studying/etc. It wasn't about money, it was about
| doing something productive, because most of that work (at
| least for me) was just side projects that I didn't get paid
| a dime for, and neither was I expecting or cared to get
| paid for it.
| thisisnico wrote:
| Honestly my home life is significantly calmer and more
| stable than my work life. Working in IT as a sysadmin, your
| entire work life consists an abundance of chaos, and a lot
| of things are out of your control that you can get blamed
| for anyway, even if you are not blamed for something out of
| your control, say office 365 is down. It still looks bad on
| you. It would be nice to work in an Industry with structure
| and actual rewards for your effort.
| xur17 wrote:
| I think it depends upon the environment. What the GP said
| definitely resonates with me, but only at places where I
| had a large amount of control over what I worked on, and
| felt like my decisions / work affected the outcome of the
| company. I've noticed this mostly at smaller companies, and
| I imagine it could be similar in certain leadership roles.
| indigochill wrote:
| I like my job but only for the contractual 8 hours a day.
| Nevertheless, I had a "this sucks and it's completely out
| of my control" moment recently and threw a bunch more time
| (and money) into making music. In part making music's
| always been an emotional regulator for me, but this time it
| was a very deliberate escape to fill my mind with composing
| so I don't leave myself space to think about the thing I
| don't want to think about.
|
| So I think escapist workaholism needn't necessarily be for
| the boss man. Anything will do the job as long as it's
| sufficiently consuming.
| dredmorbius wrote:
| A sense of agency, justfied or false, seems to be a major
| factor in person's sense of control, autonomy, and self.
|
| _Agency is the opposite of stressors._ Agency is the capacity
| to act with effect on one 's environment. Sstress is the
| inability, whether through mental or physsical ability,
| excessive or nonsensical information, inability to manipulate
| or maneuver, or nonresponsiveness on the part of the
| environment, whether inanimate, animate, or sentient.
|
| When faced with domains of no comtrol, individuals often seek
| domains of some control. This may be career, hobby,
| volunteering, sport, art, intellectual activities --- positive
| adaptations. Or "kick the dog" (or spouse, children, neighbour,
| scapegoat...) responses.
| thedmstdmstdmst wrote:
| Thank you for sharing that story.
| ThisIsTheWay wrote:
| Just wanted to say thank you for sharing this. It's not easy to
| be vulnerable, especially when it comes to emotional
| intelligence and what you could have done better. I'm happy to
| hear your family is doing well.
| offtop5 wrote:
| While not nearly as serious, I found myself more focused on
| work after a breakup back in 2019 .
|
| This focus was very good for me though and neeted a 80k pay
| increase. However , I find myself not particularly wanting to
| get into a relationship again. Felt like a very painful
| experience. I'd rather make music instead .
| robbyking wrote:
| I know we're drifting further and further away from the
| subject of the original article, but when I quit drinking I
| threw myself into music pretty hard. I had a nightly practice
| routine that I did to a metronome's ever increasing tempo,
| until one day I realized I had just traded one obsession for
| another and was starting to resent playing my guitar.
|
| Once I recognized the pattern it was easy to break, so when I
| find myself working longer hours or getting too emotionally
| involved in my work I take a step back and try to figure out
| why I'm behaving in this manner in hopes of preventing future
| burn out.
| noir_lord wrote:
| > However , I find myself not particularly wanting to get
| into a relationship again. Felt like a very painful
| experience. I'd rather make music instead .
|
| Totally normal and healthy, I felt like that when my
| relationship fell apart in 2014, didn't start dating again
| for about a year, met the woman I'm still (and plan to spend
| the rest of my life with) the year after that, the societal
| pressure to be in a relationship is real.
|
| Just remember to take stock occasionally and seek
| professional help if _you_ feel like something is wrong,
| otherwise enjoy your music.
| offtop5 wrote:
| >societal pressure to be in a relationship is real.
|
| Thanks for saying this. I had a partner who was divorced in
| 2019 as well, she really made it seem like she stayed in
| multiple crappy marriages to look good.
|
| I'm grateful for a safe place to sleep and food, which is
| much more than I expected to have in my youth.
| dathinab wrote:
| Also in my experience:
|
| Workaholism is also not seldomly caused by mental (and sometimes
| physical) health problem where the affected person tries to
| escape reality (their past, their mind, their life etc.).
| cryptica wrote:
| If you're a workaholic but your job is less than useless to the
| point that society would be better off if you didn't work, of
| course that will lead to mental health problems...
|
| That said, the fact that someone would be willing to do overtime
| to harm society is probably a sign of mental problems to begin
| with... There is nothing more ridiculous than the idea of harming
| society though charity work and yet many people are doing it
| these days.
| markus_zhang wrote:
| I believe workaholists do not neccesarily love their job, but
| hate something else so much that they would rather find some
| place to take a bit of rest.
|
| I think I'm developing into one...
| mindracer wrote:
| A manager of mine used to do 12-14 hour day Monday-Friday and
| sometimes go to the office to work over the weekend as well.
| Him and his girlfriend weren't getting on at the time and he'd
| rather be working than in the house with her
| markus_zhang wrote:
| Yeah definitely. Sometimes you can't simply cut something
| away so you have to try to stay away from it as long as
| possible. I think the situation would improve if they just
| separate.
| bsd44 wrote:
| This hit me really hard, because it's true. This is literally
| me last 7 years.
| [deleted]
| laurent92 wrote:
| Now that you are not at the top, I can say it:
|
| I have the theory that boys get into programming as a form of
| escapism - because the external world is frustrating to them.
| It is certainly my case, external world has all sorts of
| illogic demands, things that exist but should not be
| explicited, social rules, or various insults and condescension,
| some of them because we're boys (my sister used to tell me boys
| have 13% fewer neurons, that's why we're stupid). So we talk to
| computers, although they can be extremely frustrating (I have
| spent hours at 7 years old finding the missing brackets -- all
| of this in 1990 when I didn't even speak English), but at least
| computers are logic. And they answer to us. They don't make
| snarky comments. At least, when it fails, _it's our fault_ .
| And we can fix it.
|
| That would easily explain the gender gap in programming. It's
| an escapism from the real world, while girls don't need it as
| much because a lot of people are mindful of girls' problems
| (notably teachers), or accept to listen to them.
|
| I'd like to see an experiment: Give children 90% male teachers
| (the opposite of today's ratio) and see whether programming
| then becomes more popular among girls than boys.
| markus_zhang wrote:
| >I have the theory that boys get into programming as a form
| of escapism
|
| Absolutely my case, except that I'm a big boy approaching 40.
| I don't work as a programmer, but the job exposes extensive
| SQL and Python to me (SQL for querying db and Python for
| automating and sticking together things).
|
| From my experience, programming is so far the only activity
| that can satisfy my need for creating things and escaping
| from this world. I mean I can't really cut off all my ties to
| this world but it's nice to have a small world of my own to
| enjoy myself, from time to time.
| Izkata wrote:
| > They don't make snarky comments. At least, when it fails,
| _it's our fault_ . And we can fix it.
|
| Certainly not alone here, this is almost the same as part of
| the Hacker's Manifesto:
|
| > I made a discovery today. I found a computer. Wait a
| second, this is
|
| > cool. It does what I want it to. If it makes a mistake,
| it's because I
|
| > screwed it up. Not because it doesn't like me...
|
| > Or feels threatened by me...
|
| > Or thinks I'm a smart ass...
|
| > Or doesn't like teaching and shouldn't be here...
|
| http://phrack.org/issues/7/3.html
|
| ...this part of which also rang true to me throughout school.
| Jabbles wrote:
| Why do you think that this is due to your gender, rather than
| any other aspect?
| laurent92 wrote:
| Workaholism and programming are two symptoms much more
| widespread among men than women. It is not necessarily
| gender, but it is heavily correlated with it. As said, the
| experiment I've described could "test" whether it is
| gendered or not.
|
| For example, it could be Asperger. I haven't been
| personally diagnosed, though. But even Asperger is more
| often diagnosed in boys than girls.
|
| Other example, it could be behavior. Most beaten kids are
| boys. Either it is because of gender bias in the parent,
| either in it because of different behavior in the child; If
| we assume the former, it means parents are more violent
| towards the boy, if we assume the latter, it means the
| boys' attitude provokes the parent more. Either way, the
| real world is less comfortable for those, in average.
|
| There could be many profiles, only one of them "retires" in
| a virtual world, and some girls do fit the same profile.
| However, there is still a correlation.
|
| As for "why did I assume it was because of my gender", it
| is because of "Boys have 13% fewer neurons" is oriented
| towards gender, not profile, like many other events in
| life.
| wruza wrote:
| I went on vacation from mid-December and returned to work a few
| days ago (no lockdown here, office worker). I spent the entire
| "vacation" in pain, weakness, and/or headaches, but now they
| are gone (as is the money spent on treatment). I need to check
| if this has anything to do with my shitty home chair and couch
| or just being in the office. It would be very nice if the
| problem was in the furniture.
|
| Upd: no, it's not _that_ virus (tested). And I had the same
| problem in March when everyone went to "holidays" for a month.
| Hell, as I write this I get more and more of it... Thank you,
| thread.
| hello_12345 wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sick_building_syndrome
| hnxs wrote:
| For some, that something else is themselves.
|
| I disagree with this submission title. Workaholism isn't a
| cause of mental health problems, it's a symptom.
| convolvatron wrote:
| absolutely. I used to use alcohol and other drugs to
| escape...whatever that is, I haven't figured it out. now that
| I'm dry - I use physical labor. just as at one point in my
| life I used programming.
|
| at the studio where I work nearly everyone is 'in recovery'
| and everyone is quite open that the work is filling that
| hole.
| tsjq wrote:
| Very. Well. Said.
| exclusiv wrote:
| I think it's different for entrepreneur workaholics. Your
| startup is your baby. It's fun. It's challenging. It's
| rewarding.
|
| And when you're young I think it's great to dedicate to work.
| You accelerate your learning. You make more money. You meet
| smart people. I don't know anyone very knowledgeable and
| skilled for their age that did a work/life balance route.
|
| If you are a workaholic but _also_ a learnaholic, then I don 't
| buy that as this toxic thing that can drive mental and physical
| health issues. Ok, maybe sleep issues.
|
| I have a few businesses and I'd rather work on them than spend
| time on social media like my non-workaholic friends.
|
| It's ok for people to say "you work too much", but I don't tell
| my friends "you spend too much time on Facebook". Maybe I
| should though?
|
| I do agree that it can be a big problem though. Many dedicate
| themselves to their work because they are escaping something or
| avoiding other important obligations.
|
| If that doesn't apply, then go get it!
|
| Life is a hell of a lot more enjoyable when you don't have to
| worry about finances.
|
| My parents told me "you care too much about money". No I care
| infinitely about NOT worrying about money. There's a
| difference.
|
| You can care about money a lot, be focused on financial freedom
| and not be a Scrooge and accumulating for no reason.
| scyzoryk_xyz wrote:
| You do know that social media is not the only thing one can
| do outside of work, right?
|
| Like, there are ways of spending time living that don't
| revolve around trying to make "gains"; social, financial or
| any other kind.
|
| Maybe this is something that your parents mean - they're
| expressing a worry over whether you're getting value out of
| life, as you're hustling through all those businesses you
| seem to be running?
|
| I notice entrepreneurs using the baby analogy a lot. It's an
| interesting distortion of reality...
| markus_zhang wrote:
| That's out of my definition of workoholics though. So I could
| be biased as I'm using my own definition. IMO if you really
| enjoy your wor then you are not a workoholic.
| exclusiv wrote:
| I'd agree with you on that too. The article says 7 more
| hours a week is a workaholic though and based on my
| experience with friends and family - they too make no
| distinction on whether you enjoy it or not. Even if you
| tell them, they don't have that experience to understand.
|
| Kind of funny though. Nobody tells an athlete they "train
| too much". Or a researcher that they "research too much".
| detaro wrote:
| > _Nobody tells an athlete they "train too much"_
|
| Given that the side-effects of that are even worse than
| other over-work, fairly sure that happens.
|
| > _Or a researcher that they "research too much"_
|
| Of course they get told that they work too much, or don't
| let go of work enough. Common stereotype actually.
| bradstewart wrote:
| The important distinction, for me, is the self-awareness to
| truly chose to work more and understand what you're giving up
| in the process.
|
| I spent a long time being sucked into overworking primarily
| because I wanted to avoid some aspect of my life without
| realizing it. I compromised relationships, stopped hobbies
| that made me relaxed and happy--again without realizing it.
|
| It's scary how life can just pass by while you're in a state
| like that.
|
| But as long as you're aware of what you're doing, why you're
| doing it, and the "life debt" you're taking on--rock and
| roll. Pouring yourself into creating something really is an
| incredible thing.
| hanniabu wrote:
| I'm one and personally I have a lot of pride in my work, no
| matter what I'm doing, so it takes me longer to do things than
| someone else that just scraps things together. This leads to me
| spending way more time on work.
| tenebrisalietum wrote:
| Overfocus on details or over-perfection could be a symptom of
| anxiety.
| hanniabu wrote:
| Pretty sure anxiety is a symptom of the perfectionism, not
| the cause
| jolmg wrote:
| I think it could go either way. That makes it viable for
| a vicious cycle.
| eloff wrote:
| I think one needs to distinguish between being a workaholic for
| some corporation and doing it because you're starting a company
| or working for yourself.
|
| The former is obviously going to be painful and the latter might
| not even feel that much like work.
|
| Maybe I'm just justifying because I'm definitely a workaholic,
| and I'm in the second scenario and it feels totally sustainable.
| The first scenario I also did, and it was hell, I wouldn't do it
| again. It was a necessary evil to get the financial security to
| start my business (self angel funding - no permission required,
| no strings attached.)
| Enginerrrd wrote:
| I agree with all of this, though it's possible I'm also just
| justifying it to myself. I will say though that 8 hours working
| for someone else felt like a grind... but I can easily do 10-12
| if I give myself an interesting project to work on. It feels
| really meaningful to me...
| ivan_ah wrote:
| Yeah working for yourself is a big trap to watch out for. I
| have fallen for it numerous times.
|
| The problem is when you're working for yourself (or a worthy
| non-commercial cause) work feels more fun and worthwhile, but
| the health damage is kind of the same (long hours, lack of
| exercises, sub-optimal nutrition). Despite it "feeling good,"
| working in this over-capacity regime ends up really inefficient
| (since you're tired and not seeing the big picture).
|
| One thing that I find helps is to get other people involved
| (e.g. collaborators, reviewers, users, etc) then allow yourself
| to take breaks, while still knowing work on the project is
| continuing by others.
| eloff wrote:
| I take care to eat well and exercise 4-5 times a week. I
| think that's critical.
|
| I also don't do any hobbies and only see friends a few times
| a year - all my free time goes to my wife, which is how I
| manage 60 hour weeks while being married.
| long_warmup wrote:
| I was in the second scenario. It definitely is workaholism, and
| from my own experience the price check your body, mind and
| family gives in the end is not worth the financial gain...
| [deleted]
| CalRobert wrote:
| How much of workaholism is fear-driven? Since I got my house paid
| off it's been remarkably easy not to stress about trying to look
| busier than my peers.
| legerdemain wrote:
| I used to work at a place where "going above and beyond" was
| celebrated.
|
| Our products were deployed on premises. The support model was
| that the on-site team would exhaust their ability to troubleshoot
| and then send you a P0 email or Slack message, and then it was
| you against the machine, at any and all hours, until the problem
| was solved.
|
| On Mondays before lunch we'd all pile into the open space to clap
| as the product lead delivered kudos like, "Oh, and thanks to Will
| for helping Deployment Foo fix their database corruption on
| Mother's Day!"
|
| But now I'm not there anymore and their stock is making me money.
| Grind, little drones, grind, grind!
| 5tefan wrote:
| I can witness workaholism around me. In most cases an absolute
| waste of life time and that makes it even worse to me. Oftentimes
| low impact and low priority work. It doesn't makes sense to me.
| Often tried to reach out to my colleagues but they can't let go.
| Even time spent with doing nothing at all seems time spent
| better.
|
| I decide in the morning when to quit work in the afternoon. I am
| forced to manage my workload properly. And I adhere to the KISS
| principle at all times. I dislike mental overhead. Not everything
| works well but it is what it is and next day brings other
| opportunities.
| whalesalad wrote:
| I would posit that deeper psychological issues are what lead
| someone to workaholism (as a maladaptive coping mechanism). I
| believe it is a symptom of a larger issue which is what
| ultimately leads to the problems with mental and physical health.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| Sometimes lack of social contact or purpose in life, abuse,
| loneliness and depression can lead to workaholism, sometimes
| it's having drunk the cool-aid and chasing the carrot on the
| stick, or even more common, it's simply lacking better
| employment options in your area leading you to cave in to soft
| pressure from your employer which then leads to burn-
| out/depression.
| exclusiv wrote:
| That makes more sense to me than the other way around.
|
| As a workaholic, and learnaholic, I did it as a path to
| financial freedom and to accelerate my learning at at time I
| knew I had the bandwidth and will. It made me a better
| entrepreneur and business owner later, which is what I really
| wanted to do.
|
| But as I've gotten older and have a family now I've been
| removing obligations for my businesses. And working more normal
| schedules. Taking random times off to help. Being better at
| triaging what's really needed from my time.
|
| Yet, I wouldn't have change a thing with my path. It's hard to
| get to financial freedom and the goal of owning your own
| businesses with 40 hrs a week.
|
| I don't think working more than the normal is necessarily a bad
| thing. Some people actually do enjoy their jobs. Or their team.
| Or they enjoy learning.
|
| I know it's hard for some people to understand why some people
| are workaholics. I certainly have friends that don't like their
| jobs that have said I work too much. If you hate your 40 hour
| job, it's hard to imagine doing any more than that.
|
| In the right environment, the 7+ hours per week extra to be
| considered a workaholic isn't much different from reading books
| or practicing your craft in your free time.
| Dudeman112 wrote:
| Except most people don't already spend 40h per week reading
| books or practicing their crafts.
|
| If they spent 47h per week doing it, people would call it
| unhealthy too. (or dedicated, if they have no sense of
| healthy temperance at all)
| whalesalad wrote:
| One man's crippling workaholism is another man's dream life.
| To one it could be an escape or avoidance of their true self
| and to another it could be the most rewarding work of all.
| That is to say, I do not think immersing yourself in your
| work and working crazy long hours is inherently a bad thing.
| You can certainly thrive on that energy with the right
| balance.
| ntsplnkv2 wrote:
| It's always a chicken vs the egg scenario.
|
| While the initial steps into workaholism may be from other
| issues, eventually it can become the cause of many others.
| astura wrote:
| Yeah, I know someone whose workaholism is caused by abuse
| experienced during childhood. It's so obvious to me.
| whalesalad wrote:
| It is unfortunately extremely common.
| d33lio wrote:
| I'd regret not trying with every bit of my intellect and ability
| more than burning out in the process of trying. Up until my mid
| twenties I realized I'd been "protecting myself" and in effect
| making myself miserable because I kept telling myself that my
| goals would just lead to burn out and wouldn't be worth it.
| throw_away34892 wrote:
| Anyone whos at a FAANG (or similarly paying company) willing to
| share some insights into what the work culture is? I'd guess that
| its mostly dependent upon the team, manager, and project. But as
| my career progresses and I realize I dont want to be doing this
| shit well into my 50's or hell..60's I figure I can bite the
| bullet early at a FAANG and stack so much money by the time im 40
| I can tell anyone and their mother to go fuck themselves. With
| the amount they're paying the EV seems way better than trying at
| a few startups.
| allenu wrote:
| I would say from my experience, having worked at a FAANG-like
| big software company for a long time, it's very easy to work
| longer hours because of the culture. You see people responding
| to emails after hours and during weekends, you see people going
| the extra mile to meet a deadline, the promotion process is
| regularly pushed and you're always trying to do more to move
| onto the next stage, etc.
|
| It's all part of the corporate culture, so you don't even think
| of it as "workaholism", it's just normal. You live in a bubble
| and many of your friends work at the same company, so you can't
| even see a different perspective.
|
| That said, it can be very lucrative over several years since
| they pay so well. I've since left the company, but have a good
| nest egg from my work there.
| bondarchuk wrote:
| Typical case of inverting cause and effect.
| sn41 wrote:
| Or an incidence of correlation and not causation. Not that
| correlation does not mater.
| sli wrote:
| My father worked his whole life and only retired when he started
| having seizures. It got him and my mother their current homer,
| but it sacrificed his physical health and basically any
| relationship he may have had with his family, because he was
| either working (usually 12 hour days) or sleeping.
|
| I really hope it was worth it for him, because I could never do
| that to myself. Giving up that much of yourself and your life for
| people you'll never meet and don't care a single bit about you
| seems like something meant for fools.
| tinyhouse wrote:
| It's simple: Work to live. Don't live to work. Yeah, I'm talking
| to you Americans*.
|
| * Mostly joking. Workaholism exists everywhere. It's a reference
| to Emily in Paris.
| [deleted]
| throwaway91627 wrote:
| Learned this the hard way. Spent the last 7 years grinding text
| books resulting in a place on a Masters in CS and a ~$200k income
| while working remotely from the UK (without a degree, at 26).
| Whole purpose was to earn as much as I could and it took over my
| life. Now I'm on antidepressants and overweight. Recently quit my
| uni course and job, and settled for a role around $65k with a New
| Years resolution to never be a workaholic again. Feeling better
| already :)
| qmmmur wrote:
| What did you work in if you don't mind me asking?
| throwaway91627 wrote:
| Was a software developer but realised it's much easier to be
| competitive, if you're a good but not great dev, to get
| higher paying SDET roles.
| supernihil wrote:
| this is really interesting!!! i am considering a drop exactly
| like that except from 100k to 62k in order to clear up the
| anxiety induced helltrain i'm currently on, asked about it
| here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25765287
|
| sounds like you made the right choice, i am getting more and
| more convinced about sacrificing the career to get time for
| treating myself and the family better
| throwaway91627 wrote:
| I think it's really worth considering, but don't do it off of
| my post :) Chat to your family about it but also consider
| speaking to your doctor about anti anxiety
| counselling/medication. Helped me get through a lot of it.
| supernihil wrote:
| dont worry, not doing these decisions lightheaded :-) just
| wanted to express that i admire the thought of skipping the
| "money making mission" i am on to take care of the real
| things i care about being my family and my head. I hope you
| all get a great 2021!
| shimonabi wrote:
| Ezra Klein had an interesting podcast recently with Robert
| Sapolsky on how constant stress damages your health:
|
| https://www.stitcher.com/show/the-ezra-klein-show/episode/ro...
| honkycat wrote:
| Most of the time I've seen it, it is avoidance of the rest of
| their life. "Change diapers? Oh, sorry honey, I uhh... gotta do
| this thing at work. Darn it!"
|
| One phenomenon I've always noticed about workaholics is that they
| THINK they are being more productive, but often times they are
| just spending more time spinning their wheels. Also the effect it
| has on their mood/interpersonal skills, and the pressure it puts
| on the rest of the team cancels it out. Seriously, one rude
| comment in the morning can throw a developer off for the rest of
| the day, it's not worth it.
|
| "Man what's up with frank today?"
|
| "Oh he was pulling an all-nighter doing a non-urgent task."
|
| "Did anybody ask him to?"
|
| "No. In fact we asked him to stop."
|
| I consider independent study, side-projects, reading a good book,
| smoking some dope, cooking a good meal with my partner, getting
| enough sleep, relaxing, and exercising(!!!!) part of my job. I
| don't care what kind of mutant you THINK you are, you will
| perform better if you go to bed and get a full nights rest and
| clean your brain out. It is just science.
|
| Finally, while it is true that "work more = better review at
| work", it's just... not worth it. If your job is your whole life
| and you are not making +200k: GET A LIFE. You have better things
| to do with your time than make some other man money. Work is a
| "safe place." Time goes in, money comes out. But that doesn't
| mean it is a healthy way to spend all of your time.
| thebean11 wrote:
| > If your job is your whole life and you are not making +200k:
| GET A LIFE
|
| Tons of people on this forum are making that much, would not
| recommend workaholism for them either
| lqet wrote:
| > "Man what's up with frank today?"
|
| > "Oh he was pulling an all-nighter doing a non-urgent task."
|
| > "Did anybody ask him to?"
|
| > "No. In fact we asked him to stop."
|
| When I am doing this, it is usually because I have the strong
| feeling that I am in complete control of the problem _right
| now_ , hours after midnight. Two fears then kick it: will I
| make it to this point of control a second time in the near
| future (3-6 months)? Will I even _remember_ the extremely
| abstract concepts a few days from now? To me, the answer
| (confirmed by experience) is often: most likely not, better
| finish it now.
| r00fus wrote:
| After you create your masterpiece of code, do you know enough
| to document and understand it later (so you can pass it on to
| others)?
|
| Having been in the zone, I completely sympathize with the
| view that productivity isn't constant; that the cost to your
| health is worth the leap...
|
| Have you ever had that feeling and then realized in the
| morning/next day that your feeling was illusory and you
| actually took the harder path?
| bradstewart wrote:
| I know the feeling. In college (and for a year or so right
| after), I had the same answer.
|
| A few years later, I've finally realized that any code I
| write at 2am almost always needs to be fixed--often
| substantially--soon after. I miss things. I write stupid
| bugs. I don't see the requirements clearly.
|
| I've found writing things down (sometimes a few words,
| sometimes a few pages), sleeping on it, and reviewing those
| notes first thing in the morning--before email, before
| showering, before anything--to be a much a better strategy.
|
| YMMV, of course.
| fairity wrote:
| > One phenomenon I've always noticed about workaholics is that
| they THINK they are being more productive, but often times they
| are just spending more time spinning their wheels.
|
| >The effect it has on their mood/interpersonal skills, and the
| pressure it puts on the rest of the team cancels it out.
|
| > You will perform better if you go to bed and get a full
| nights rest and clean your brain out
|
| All of these claims are situational and often untrue. It's
| entirely possible for workaholics to be more productive, inter-
| personally smooth, and a team player.
|
| The most convincing reason to not be a workaholic is not that
| it's a counter-productive effort. It's that workaholism will
| lead to decreased long-term fulfillment (for most people).
| dheera wrote:
| Maybe they were doing it to get promoted? Sad reality is often
| promotions go to the workaholics instead of the people who take
| care of themselves.
| justathrowa wrote:
| >But that doesn't mean it is a healthy way to spend all of your
| time.
|
| Dunno about that.
|
| Just a personal anecdote, but this year my boss specifically
| told me to work less, slashing my salary down by $10,000 a year
| to emphasize the point. Prior to this, 200 to 240 hours a month
| was pretty typical and has been for the last 8 years. (I doubt
| it's out of real concern for my health, my workload hasn't been
| reduced).
|
| What I've found was that in the times of idleness though I've
| thought more and more about suicide. The Christmas holidays
| were some of the first I've had to have an entire week to
| myself and I spent most of it was spent testing methods for
| speed, logistics, and discomfort, as well as scouting suitable
| locations; somewhere that would force an EMS / police arrival
| on site by 10 minutes or so. Updated my will and managed to
| work out the logistics of transferring all my assets to to
| remaining family quickly when I finally make the decision to
| kill myself.
|
| Never in my life has it gotten this far before; never really
| had time to seriously think about until now. I'd imagine that
| most people though would probably be more fine with a miserably
| but living workaholic, then a corpse dead of suicide.
|
| As such, could you really say that is working long hours such
| is really unhealthy? Or such a terrible thing?
| jolmg wrote:
| If your current work is no longer serving your needs, maybe
| it's time to find another. Don't let anybody tell you how to
| live your life. Do what works best.
|
| > 200 to 240 hours a month was pretty typical
|
| It also seems very normal. I do 210 a month at least (without
| overtime). That's not counting lunch hour during which I'm
| mostly still at my desk, and which would add another 20 hours
| a month.
|
| > (I doubt it's out of real concern for my health, my
| workload hasn't been reduced).
|
| I don't know your work or your boss, but it could be they
| expect you to manage yourself and are waiting to see how the
| work piles up before deciding what to do about it. If they
| complain it's not getting done, just quote them. Less time =
| less work gets done.
|
| Also see my other comment:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25767160
| abcdjdjd wrote:
| >As such, could you really say that is working long hours
| such is really unhealthy? Or such a terrible thing?
|
| Yes, yes it is. It sounds like you are simply using work as a
| distraction from your problems instead of addressing them.
|
| Our society is becoming more and more disconnected as
| everyone is working way too much. We should be working less,
| not more.
|
| Less work means people can spend more time doing things they
| enjoy, socializing, doing things they need to do outside
| work, and having more time to relax and probably sleep.
| jolmg wrote:
| > using work as a distraction from your problems instead of
| addressing them
|
| Some problems can't be addressed, but one can learn to live
| happily in spite of them. I think finding a distraction is
| a fine way of doing that. Relative to other options, work
| seems like a very healthy distraction if it works.
| thebean11 wrote:
| I'm sure there's lots of unhealthy things that will make you
| temporarily not feel suicidal..I feel great after 5 tequila
| sodas but it's obviously not good for me. You should really
| get help
| wittyreference wrote:
| I kind of feel obligated to pipe in as a physician:
|
| There are signs of people not being a high suicide risk,
| despite depression and overt claims of suicidality. This post
| is the absolute opposite of that - if you were with me in the
| clinic right now, I'd consider you an incredibly high risk of
| an actual suicide attempt. Please, please, please, please
| reach out to a professional and friends for help. Please.
| ulysses wrote:
| Perhaps replace the time worked with time spent looking for
| another job. Despite having faced suicidal depression a time
| or two myself, I have no great advice to offer; but one of
| the things I've turned to many times is a bit in the ASR FAQ.
| 5.8) But seriously, should I kill myself?
| Seriously, no. As posted to ASR by Ed Evans:
| Ultimate recovery stalks us all, no need to succour it. Quit
| or take a leave with or without pay (or permission),
| stop seeing him or her, recognise that the cat or dog
| does rule you, call in sick and spend the day in the
| big blue room, it's only money and can be earned
| again, all the pictures will be posted again, call the
| local professionals if you really feel that way...
| And if all else fails? Lawn mowing. If you're
| willing to take the severe step of killing yourself, you
| should be willing to take less severe steps such as
| quitting your job or taking a leave without permission.
| And really, there _is_ help out there. Maybe in here,
| too. And more of us have been there than you may
| realize. We're grateful now that we didn't do it.
| (Most days.) In chess they have a saying, "You can't
| win by resigning." Keep playing; you never know.
| axxto wrote:
| Please, consider seeing a professional as soon as possible.
| Mental illness is nothing to be ashamed of: it doesn't brand
| you as ANYTHING, any more than being diabetic or having an
| allergy does. There is a very good chance that a doctor can
| help you quickly and easily.
|
| And you might feel at times like you don't even want to be
| helped, or that you don't deserve help, or that it's not
| worth the bother, but those are all symptoms of your problem,
| not consequences of it. Your judgement IS impaired. It _will_
| go away once you 're in treatment. You'll be amazed at the
| change.
|
| Please, talk to a professional, be very honest with them
| about how you're feeling and about the thoughts you are
| having. I know it's tough to open up and it might seem
| awkward, and I know it's easy to lose sight of it in these
| times we live in, but I promise you, there _are_ many people
| out there that _really_ want to help you, not just because it
| 's their job, and they are more than able to do it. It _will_
| change your life.
|
| You will get over this and come out stronger on the other
| side. You'll see. Best wishes, friend.
| robocat wrote:
| > please, consider seeing a professional as soon as
| possible.
|
| Strongly agree.
|
| > Mental illness is nothing to be ashamed of: it doesn't
| brand you as ANYTHING, any more than being diabetic or
| having an allergy does
|
| Strongly disagree. In theory it shouldn't. However in
| practice it often is incredibly shameful, and we all
| sympathise with that.
|
| Even your own internal song about a diagnosis can have vast
| negative consequences.
|
| Friends and family can treat you like a pariah: for example
| many people will consciously choose not to let Reese near
| their kids because of some diagnoses.
|
| Even worse the effects of being labelled (ignoring the
| effects of a mental issue) can be subtle and hard to see
| because they are socially hidden, or they are subconscious,
| so that one is left questioning why things happened the way
| they did.
|
| I agree, it can often be positive. But I have friends that
| have been given labels, and who I've witnessed negative
| outcomes for them, well beyond those caused by their
| "illness".
|
| The idea is to get help even though it is scary...
| especially for suicidal thoughts. Not seeking help is very
| likely to be extremely harmful to many people.
|
| Edit:
|
| One can choose to hide a condition from friends or family,
| but that has other consequences, such as making one more
| distant or detached.
|
| Yes, _get help_ , but keep your eyes open and get good
| advice on how to share everthing with your friends and
| family, in the best manner you can find.
|
| More positively, vulnerability often makes you closer to
| friends and with a small amount of luck helps you be a
| better person e.g. less judgemental about others.
|
| All the best, there is a lot of love out there for most
| everyone.
| robocat wrote:
| Working on how you would commit suicide is a very strong
| signal you are in mortal danger, according to my friend a
| nurse with experience.
|
| Your problem to solve is: 'what will make my life
| worthwhile.' Make it your _job_ to solve that and spend time
| and money(=stored time) to do so. The alternative job of how
| to end your life is a poor goal, IMHO.
|
| You can pay someone to care about you (edit: and has the
| skills to be useful): a councillor or a life coach or a nurse
| or whoever... Choosing someone is a difficult problem, but it
| is tractable; perhaps try multiple people in parallel (edit:
| from different specialities) and pick whoever clicks the most
| with you.
|
| Don't be scared to spend money: as a purely financial
| decision anything that keeps you earning for many years to
| come would be an insanely great investment (in fact, so good
| that it is a startup idea in itself that if scaled could get
| VC funding).
|
| In an ideal world you have someone close to you help you that
| (a) would take the time to help, (b) can make the time to
| help, and (c) has the ability to help. However it isn't as
| common as it should be to have someone like that available.
| If you are lonely then you likely believe you don't have that
| person in your life already, so paying a stranger is far
| simpler.
|
| Finally, if you must commit suicide, please do it so that it
| plausibly looks like an accident. Suicide is devastating to
| so many people around you, even very loose acquaintances and
| strangers in your social graph... I have seen the deep
| effects of suicides rip through my own friends and
| acquaintances, and it is the caring and vulnerable that are
| most deeply and often permanently hurt (sometimes they may be
| on the far distant fringes of the social graph from the
| suicide). I personally believe you can do whatever you want
| with _your_ life, but harming others touches _their_ life.
|
| Edit: if you reply with a way to contact you, I myself would
| share my time with you, because even just trying to help is
| an interesting challenge for me. I don't have any training,
| but I might possibly be more in tune with you than many who
| do?
| Tycho wrote:
| Go to church. The people there will talk to you and welcome
| you to join activities. During the service all you have to do
| is stand up, sit down, and sing along. Listening is optional.
| Even if you are not religious, you can treat it as some sort
| of research into mass psychology or systems of civilization.
| ornornor wrote:
| I don't know you and I don't mean to tell you what to do. I
| can't imagine what it feels like to be in your situation,
| consider talking to someone to try and make things better for
| yourself before doing something you can't undo. I hope it
| gets better, and wish you all the best.
| jason0597 wrote:
| I've noticed in the replies below that you've said you don't
| have meaningful relationships with anyone. I firmly believe
| that this is a strong contributing factor to how you feel
| right now.
|
| I've been through similar situations in my life as well, very
| dark times that I have trouble believing I went through.
|
| Do you want to talk more? My email is in my profile. I'm
| happy to talk with you!
| vorpalhex wrote:
| Do you have any kind of meaningful social connections outside
| of work? Whether it's family, religion, non-religious social
| orgs, hobbies or whatever, a strong set of social connections
| tends to correlate with happiness.
|
| It might also be worth looking into adopting or rescuing a
| pet, a senior dog tends to be low energy and they typically
| have low adoption rates. They are often loyal, loving and
| excellent companions.
|
| If you have a blank check for life, use it for some purpose.
| justathrowa wrote:
| >Do you have any kind of meaningful social connections
| outside of work?
|
| No, but that's been the status quo so I was a child.
|
| Wouldn't having a social circle that cause more problems
| though? Suicide's main issue is the distress it causes for
| social connections. No circle, no problems.
| tekkk wrote:
| No, it's the isolation that is way more harmful. Sure you
| can be alone even with social connections if they are
| superficial, but we humans are hard-wired to seek
| community and social connections to validate our
| existence. Similar to working, I guess, but which is more
| mentally healthier and productive.
|
| Yet building those social connections is definitely not
| an easy task. Once you have been molded to a certain
| shape to rewire your mental patterns and the emotional
| rewarding system is very difficult. You have to be
| persistent in building those friendships until you at
| some point achieve a level of rapport that, hopefully,
| allows you to be completely yourself around another
| person.
|
| But no one can really give you the answers how to
| approach solving the problem. My advice is to seek venues
| of expressing yourself to find like-minded people who
| think the same at a deep, instinctive level. I whole-
| heartedly recommend performing arts, like improvisational
| theatre, which forces to play like a child. There is
| something there that I think is very rejuvenating when
| you can just fool around and laugh. Also you can't really
| think of anything else when you are performing.
|
| I'd say the most difficult part of the whole problem is
| that you can't remove your emotions from solving your
| problem and therefore you can't make the most rational
| choices as you subconsciously avoid failure. But I
| encourage you to keep trying. Seeking professional help
| would also be advisable.
| chickenfries wrote:
| The main problem with suicide is that it forecloses the
| possibility that your life will get better. And it can.
| The fact that you care about leaving your connections in
| distress tells me you care for people. This is normal and
| good and makes you human. We need human connection to
| live. Even now, you take others feelings into account.
| You seem like a good person, and the world would be worse
| without you.
| TempNoConflict wrote:
| When I was child I moved around schools a lot, eventually
| I stopped trying to make friends. As life went on I
| distanced myself from family and what few friends I had.
|
| I ended up horribly depressed for years, never really
| understanding why. I was young enough when I started down
| this path that I wasn't really conscious of the decisions
| I was making and its impact on my emotional wellbeing, it
| was just an internalized reaction to losing my friends
| over and over.
|
| When I stopped trying to make friends I let my ability to
| form meaningful connections rot. Being around people made
| me sad because I wouldn't let anyone know me and that
| made me feel misunderstood, like I didn't belong. And
| being alone all the time just would sap all colour from
| life.
|
| I made a conscious effort to be more forthcoming and open
| with people last year and its made a world of difference
| for me. I'm still pretty miserable, somedays can be
| pretty rough, but life is more than just sadness and
| emptiness now.
|
| I only realized this when I started smoking pot
| constantly outside of work. It helped me calm down and
| see things for what they really were. I wouldn't outright
| recommend becoming a pothead like me, especially if you
| have mental issues, since it can be dangerous but I'd
| strongly recommend talking to a professional.
|
| I was in such an awful state of mind that I couldn't
| think rationally even though I was convinced I was.
| You're more than your emotions, you're more than your
| thoughts, that's just a state of being. If you want to
| change those aspects of your life, as an Adult, it falls
| on you to seek treatment. Please seek treatment if you
| feel you need it. There are people who want to help.
| axxxo93 wrote:
| No, my friend. Suicide's main issue is that you will be
| dead. I urge you to talk to a professional. You don't
| have to feel this way.
| justathrowa wrote:
| Is it?
|
| The dead cannot feel joy, love, pain, or sadness. They
| cannot perceive anything, nor can the be aware of
| anything; one second in time is exactly the same as a
| billion years to the dead. And you cannot do anything to
| the dead that would change that.
|
| Barring the possibility of an afterlife, if nothing can
| affect the dead, and the dead are unaware of everything,
| what could possibly be the dead's problem?
|
| The living on the other hand? They would be the one that
| would perceive the dead's absence, and mourn it. They are
| the ones that have to deal with the uncertainty of what
| death is. Or the questions of why someone would prefer
| death.
|
| But there in lies the key point; someone has to perceive
| the death of a peer to mourn it. Let's say for a moment
| that there is only one person in the universe and he
| dies. Who mourns for him? Like wise, if someone exists,
| and no one else is aware, who mourns for him after he
| dies? In either case, he cannot mourn for himself.
|
| So really... is being dead a problem for the dead? Or is
| it more the concern of those still alive?
| jolmg wrote:
| > So really... is being dead a problem for the dead? Or
| is it more the concern of those still alive?
|
| I wouldn't weigh them. It could go either way.
|
| The problem for the dead is the loss of opportunity. The
| waste. If I have some amount of cash in my wallet, what
| I'm able to do with it will depend on the market that's
| available to me. Maybe I won't be able to afford the same
| things others do in other places, but I should be able to
| take _some_ advantage of it. Dying is dropping that cash
| down the gutter. It 's utterly wasteful.
|
| Doing the same with your time alive is even more so
| because you can't get it back.
|
| Even the most minimal use of your 5 senses is a good use.
| Even dreaming while sleep is a good use. Even just
| thinking is a good use. The opportunity to use that time
| for anything at all is lost when you die.
| tasuki wrote:
| Fully agree with everything you wrote here. It isn't a
| problem to be not-living. I was not-living long before I
| was born, and it was never a problem.
|
| I understand you feel your life isn't worth living. It is
| very much possible (though not easy) to change that. As
| the others have said, please talk to a professional. I
| don't know you, but you seem like a bright, thoughtful
| person. Humanity needs you.
| honkycat wrote:
| Hey: I'm sorry you are suffering so much you are thinking
| about taking your own life. I know your pain is real because
| I have felt it myself before.
|
| I do not want you to commit suicide, please stay with us.
|
| Please call the suicide prevention hotline and get help. Just
| try to talk to someone on this phone line at least once. It
| helped me: https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/
| esja wrote:
| Friend, please call the suicide prevention hotline in your
| country. It will only take a few minutes.
|
| If you do this now, and if you decide to trust in yourself
| and the many people who will help you from that moment
| onward, one day you can wake from this bad dream. You will
| have no more suicidal thoughts, and you will begin to love
| and appreciate yourself and your unique life, just as you
| deserve to.
|
| Please just commit to making contact and giving it a try.
| You've spent lots of time researching the alternatives -
| please just spend a few minutes and take one step along this
| path.
| mistersquid wrote:
| Because you've taken concrete steps to prepare for suicide,
| please take a few minutes to discuss this with a doctor or a
| mental health professional.
|
| One resource is the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline.
| https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org
| domano wrote:
| Change your employer, take a break if financially possible.
| Life can be better, please talk to someone. Your loved ones
| and a professional.
|
| Life can be fun and working more does not solve problems!
| chickenfries wrote:
| I don't know what has brought you to this point in life, but
| I'm sorry that it has you considering suicide.
|
| For me, being a workaholic left me feeling disconnected and
| isolated from the world. The antidepressants didn't help,
| they just numbed me to my own emotional pain enough that I
| could keep functioning.
|
| The holidays are a depressing time for a lot of people, and
| to a limited extent, I can see the harm reduction in working
| through them. But for me, finding a reason to live involved
| spending time outside of work to make new friends, revive old
| friendships, and improve my family life. I truly believe that
| work is no replacement for friends and family, the only
| things that I have found worth living for.
|
| I hope things start looking up for you, friend.
| aerosmile wrote:
| I found it interesting that you put a price tag on it. Also,
| $200k is about $150k more than most people make, but if you
| look at just the workaholic population and isolate for
| industries such as finance and law, many people in that group
| are going to be within the shooting range of that threshold.
| And there you have it - even within your own framework, it
| becomes understandable why we have so many workaholics.
|
| My point is - the moment you put a price tag on your work-life
| balance, it becomes very difficult to escape the rat race. You
| really have to be quite militant about it or otherwise it won't
| work.
| mrkstu wrote:
| The difference is if you can get enough distance between your
| expenses and your income, you can completely _escape_ the rat
| race in a significantly earlier timeframe.
|
| For many outside of the ultra high cost of living zones, 200k
| is about that cut off level where you can reach escape
| velocity.
| aerosmile wrote:
| I should have clarified that I am not passing judgment on
| being a workaholic or not. I spent the majority of my
| working career as a workaholic, although I did try to
| escape it on a few occasions. The first and only time it
| worked was when I made it a non-negotiable part of my work
| to carve out certain lifestyle demands. At the time, it
| seemed quite likely that this could trigger some negative
| consequences, and as someone who worked hard on building a
| career, it wasn't an easy decision to consciously take a
| few steps back. I only pulled through because of the
| conviction that it had to happen.
|
| In an alternate universe, I would have stayed a workaholic
| and would likely retire earlier than I will now. Both are
| good options IMO. The choices I made have to do with how I
| want to spend my free time - my favorite hobby requires top
| physical fitness, and I won't be able to pursue it semi-
| competitively for many more years.
| robbyking wrote:
| I'm lucky that before Covid I was able to walk to work so I was
| never bound by traffic or transportation schedules, but I
| definitely have friends and coworkers who "miss their bus" so
| they'll get home after their kids are down.
|
| (For those of you without kids, a lot of pre-schoolers go to
| bed at 7.)
| phanindra_veera wrote:
| I wish I knew this 3 years ago. Anyway things are good now.
| mancerayder wrote:
| I've been in situations where I was under a lot of stress and had
| trouble concentrating and being effective at work. Especially
| learning.
|
| I'm very jealous of those who are not less, but more performant
| under those conditions.
| aiava wrote:
| Who knew?
| huijzer wrote:
| The title is very misleading because it states a causation
| whereas the article talks about "links" and "associations". This
| is a serious error since correlation is not causation.
| ystad wrote:
| Difficult to disagree, especially when you are working on a job
| that is not satisying intellectually and emotionally. All the
| money in the world doesn't help
| billwear wrote:
| okay, can see that; what if your job is enjoyable like play, and
| you get lost doing it, and thus don't have mental and physical
| effects?
| philmcp wrote:
| In years to come we will look down on the 5 day working week in
| the same way we currently do with 15hr factory shifts during the
| industrial revolution.
|
| It absolutely blows my mind that 99% of office roles are still 5
| days / week, Monday to Friday - why is there basically no
| variation on this model? I'd be more than happy to work a job for
| 80% salary for 4 days per week...
|
| So much so, I'm about to launch a website listing remote software
| jobs with a 4 day work week:
|
| https://www.28hrworkweek.com/
| lrossi wrote:
| Interesting. How long until you launch?
| philmcp wrote:
| Hopefully next week, will email everyone on the list and post
| it on HN when it's live
| jostmey wrote:
| I get that Workaholism is a form of escapism for many people, but
| that's not necessarily the case for everyone. I personally become
| depressed if I cannot work on something important and potentially
| valuable, feeling that the days pass without meaning.
|
| I spend lots of time with my kid because I see that as important.
| I set aside time to get enough sleep so that I can remain
| productive. But I hate weekends (unless at the park with my kid),
| I hate shopping, and I hate vacations. I think I avoid burnout
| because I don't waste time on meaningless tasks. Life is too
| short, and I want to accomplish a lot
| tolbish wrote:
| Wouldn't the need to feel productive in order to avoid
| meaninglessness/depression be considered escapism?
| fairity wrote:
| Sure, OC's situation could be categorized as escapism,
| technically, but it doesn't sound like the unhealthy kind.
| Escapism is only unhealthy if you're participating in the
| activity at the detriment of your long term fulfillment.
|
| Similarly, addiction is generally bad, but if your addiction
| isn't detrimental to your long-term health, there's no
| problem.
| bob1029 wrote:
| This is more-or-less my position.
|
| I work at a very small company, and I have a lot of leverage
| relative to other opportunities. I can directly feel how my
| work converts into more business value & opportunity. This is
| not just about me though. It's also about being able to grow
| the company and provide amazing opportunities for _other_
| developers, project managers, executives, et. al. I view my
| company and team members almost as a big family. We offer all
| sorts of employee incentive packages, so my success also means
| that others on the team are reaping value.
|
| For me, this is enough. I can go through life with the purpose
| of holding together a technology company & vision. Especially,
| when I view it through the lens of all the opportunity and
| support I can provide for other humans. I feel I can do a lot
| more good in this world through technology & business than if I
| were to bunker down and start my own family and pour all my
| energy into that bucket.
|
| There is certainly a happy balance that a lot of people manage
| across both realms, but I have doubled-down a bunch of times on
| the technology paths, so I am fairly locked-in at this phase. I
| am truly happy with the choices I have made. Many times, the
| hardest part of this is ignoring some of the more toxic
| perspectives regarding your choices & contributions. I have to
| remind myself that a lot of people are really not happy with
| their jobs and just want to get in and out without too much
| drama.
| dheera wrote:
| To me workaholism is giving too much time to your main job.
|
| On the other hand I'd I have a LOT of side projects that I
| consider to have meaning. Most of my vacations are projects,
| e.g.
|
| https://petapixel.com/2019/07/13/shooting-high-res-thermal-p...
|
| https://www.businessinsider.com/chinas-drastic-changes-in-ur...
|
| Taking vacations like that makes me want to take vacations. I
| guess to rephrase what I want to say, I think looking for
| meaning is a fine thing to do, just don't put it all into your
| day job, look for meaning in other parts of your life too.
| duggable wrote:
| Man, this is me as well. I DREAD the weekends cause I don't
| know what to do with myself. I sit around feeling anxious and
| half-depressed, and my mind runs in circles. I'm typically
| excited for Monday so I can get back to work and distract
| myself from whatever is going on inside my head.
| dfilppi wrote:
| Are we expected to believe that there are workaholics in France?
| Now 'strikaholics' I can believe.
| poxwole wrote:
| In other news, water is wet.
| NalNezumi wrote:
| >"Workaholics are people who usually work seven and more hours
| more than others per week."
|
| >"Workaholism is also known as a behavioural disorder, which
| means the excessive involvement of the individual in work when an
| employer doesn't require or expect it."
|
| >"The results show that high job demands at work are strongly
| associated with work addiction risk but the job control level
| does not play the same role."
|
| In a first glance, the definition of Workaholism seems like
| something very culture/country dependent. In places such as Japan
| with pressure to stay longer than your boss, working longer to
| "show you're working hard", a lot of people might be categorized
| as workaholic without actually being one.
|
| What the model seems to _not_ include is, and I think contributes
| way more to work related mental health issue is _emotional_
| investment in work. Too much emotional investment seems to lead
| to unreasonable stress when things are not going accordingly,
| while not helping much when things are going well. (Which is
| natural ofc, emotionally we remember negative events /failure
| more. It being tied to our self-worth or something deeply
| emotional, is problematic though.)
|
| I left my previous company because of this reason; the project
| wasn't going anywhere, horribly mismanaged including unrealistic
| goal settings. But I've had this condition before on other jobs,
| but only on this one did I get so emotionally invested that I
| spent ridiculous over-time until burnout trying to make things
| (out of my control) work.
|
| In retrospective, what made it all worse was that I liked my
| coworker a lot at my previous work, and seeing them work hard on
| other project while my project were going nowhere, made me more
| invested. The company-culture that made reaching out to others
| for feedback/brain storm/help hard, was also strong contributing
| factor.
| vasco wrote:
| To think that you can somehow not be emotionally invested in
| the thing you spend 20% of your time on is a bit naive. Maybe
| you're a level 9000 stoic, but for the rest of us, I think it's
| fine and normal to be emotionally invested in our work, it
| allows for genuine motivation, team spirit and yes
| disappointments, but what the hell are you living for?
|
| You rather be a robot for 8 hours every day? I'd rather be sad
| every once in a while but be myself at work and care about it
| and the people in there with me.
| rimiform wrote:
| You're absolutely bang-on with the cultural dependence thing.
| Here, in Europe (although this seems to be changing), it's
| normal to work fewer hours than would be customary in North
| America. So, your threshold for 'workaholism' would be lower.
|
| I'm not sure if this is a Western thing or whatever it might
| be, but for some reason a lot of social science researchers
| neglect to mention that their research is done on a specific
| cultural group. You could say "... in the US" for this title,
| but I rarely see this done.
| Abishek_Muthian wrote:
| I nearly ended up becoming a quadriplegic[1] after ignoring my
| health issues(I literally didn't know I had a fracture in my
| neck) while running a startup for ~5 years as a single founder. I
| had to close my startup because of it.
|
| So I would certainly say it was not worth it, now even my compute
| time is limited, I had to even change my programming language of
| choice(Java to Go) to reduce the time before computer before my
| biological alarm(pain) goes off.
|
| Please do what ever it takes to maintain a healthy work-life
| balance. Especially the single founders out there, the bus factor
| is more real than the perceived light at the end of the tunnel.
|
| Also workaholics, get a damn big heath insurance coverage,
| largest coverage you can afford.
|
| [1]https://abishekmuthian.com/i-was-told-i-would-become-
| quadrip...
| may4m wrote:
| I classify workaholics into three categories, first is too much
| pride, second is "my colleagues are my friends" and there isn't
| much to do at home anyways, third is someone really needs the job
| and money
| dfee wrote:
| Because none of the comments (yet) reflect the content of the
| article, here is a useful excerpt that should help refocus us:
|
| > The results show that high job demands at work are strongly
| associated with work addiction risk but the job control level
| does not play the same role. The prevalence of work addiction
| risk is higher for active and high-strain workers than for
| passive and low-strain workers. These two groups of workers
| appeared to be more vulnerable and therefore can suffer more from
| the negative outcomes of work addiction risk, in terms of
| depression, sleep disorder, stress and other health issues.
|
| For a definition of the four types of working situations, they're
| in the article and marked with battery icons.
| TrackerFF wrote:
| One thing I've seen, time and time again, is that workaholics tie
| their identity to their employment. Everything revolves around
| work, and they pretty much become their work. Work is the place
| where they live. Co-workers, clients, associates, and what not
| are the majority of people they interact with. Work is what
| occupies their mind.
|
| When they then lose that - either through retirement,
| unemployment, or what not, it turns ugly. Especially if they're
| also the sole provider (in their household.).
|
| My only tips are to create rules for yourself, and try to follow
| them - as well as finding one or more hobbies. The more
| passionate you become with some hobbies, the less you only think
| about work.
| zaczekadam wrote:
| For me it was the combination of two factors: - my girlfriend
| leaving me - starting a company with my friends
|
| This led to a massive addition to work. While I don't regret
| starting a company at all, my sleep quality definitely suffered.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2021-01-13 23:01 UTC)