[HN Gopher] Scuttlebutt - A decentralized secure gossip platform
___________________________________________________________________
Scuttlebutt - A decentralized secure gossip platform
Author : dgellow
Score : 304 points
Date : 2021-01-10 11:59 UTC (11 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (scuttlebutt.nz)
(TXT) w3m dump (scuttlebutt.nz)
| 1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote:
| Is use of Javascript a requirement.
| grey_earthling wrote:
| IMO scuttlebutt's mood can be summed up by
| https://coolguy.website/the-future-will-be-technical/
| gdsdfe wrote:
| Haven't tried it yet but can someone clarify whether it's
| possible to discover sub-communities or you have to be explicitly
| 'invited' to those ?
| stunt wrote:
| "Tending and pruning are not a stranger's duty, it is through
| near moderation and free listening that we improve our
| surroundings" https://scuttlebutt.nz/docs/principles/
|
| What does "near moderation" mean?
| tao_oat wrote:
| I believe it means handling moderation yourself rather than
| relying on platform providers to do it for you. You have to
| choose your peers that you receive content from carefully
| rather than rely on platform moderators to filter content.
| bitwize wrote:
| I get it. Remember killfiles on USENET?
|
| About the only thing considered universally intolerable and
| subject to administrative removal, at least on USENET's alt.*
| hierarchy, was spam. But spammers could spam faster than
| cancellers could cancel, so it eventually overwhelmed the
| platform.
| grey_earthling wrote:
| Scuttlebutt inverts this idea of cancelling -- as a new
| user you're just shouting into the void until you persuade
| someone to follow you.
|
| Essentially, each user is just writing their own diary. If
| you follow someone, your client periodically asks around
| for a copy of that person's diary.
|
| No-one's gonna ask for the spammers' diaries.
| l33tman wrote:
| But then you could just subscribe to some peoples RSS
| feeds (or .plans for the archaic people ;). At some point
| you want to "listen" to a group/forum where you don't
| have personal control over every member and as soon as a
| spammer joins you'd get their spam.. how does this work
| in scuttlebutt, or maybe this is not a use-case it tries
| to supply, is it just a twitter-clone? (I don't know
| anything about it...)
|
| I guess you could design a group so at first only a few
| get hit with junk from a new member and as long as nobody
| stop listening, others would eventually accept the new
| member as well.
|
| Just thinking on this use case as USENET was discussed
| elsewhere here as an analogy, maybe it's not relevant at
| all.
| perlpimp wrote:
| on a tangent, alt.sysadmin.recovery was a great place.
| toyg wrote:
| Spam was not why I stopped using USENET, I expect the same
| techniques that worked to clean-up email would have worked
| with that if we'd hung around a bit longer. It's just that
| the overall maintenance required too much work (and legal
| risk) by ISPs and clients alike, in terms of disk space,
| synchronisation, integrity checks, backups, etc etc.
| konjin wrote:
| Proof of work makes this expensive.
| tachyonbeam wrote:
| I can see the appeal. I imagine this means that if none of my
| friends follow conspiracy theory content, I won't see any of
| that, and if one of them did, I could presumably block the
| conspiracy theory content feeds while still following my
| friends.
|
| The downside may be that, presumably, this puts everyone into
| a bubble even more than Facebook did? At least there is no
| algorithmic meddling or centralized content control.
| remexre wrote:
| On the other hand, having to take conscious action to
| enforce the bubble (rather than needing to take action to
| pop it) might be beneficial / lead to less of a bubble.
| black_puppydog wrote:
| The idea is that moderation will be based on who you trust.
|
| First and foremost, that is yourself, i.e. you can moderate
| your own timeline by choosing who to follow or block. Since
| this happens on your device, there's nobody who can interfere
| with this.
|
| Further, it also means that you can trust your peers when you
| want. One default behaviour is that if you do NOT follow a feed
| A, and feeds B and C, who you do follow, each block A, your
| client will not _by default_ replicate A 's messages and thus
| you won't see them. Of course, if you unfollow B and C, or if
| you choose to explicitly follow A, then you'd see their content
| again. That's what I would understand by "close moderation"
| anyhow.
| andai wrote:
| Censorship by osmosis?
| black_puppydog wrote:
| If you follow people you don't trust to understand these
| mechanisms, and wield them accordingly, then maybe. But IF
| you understand how this works, the client will never
| prevent you from reading something you would want. And it's
| hard-if-not-impossible to prevent the client from fetching
| a specific feed. So in that sense, no, not censorship.
|
| It is good practice on SSB though to make a comment on why
| you block a feed. There are many reasons, from NSFW content
| to actual harassment to simply spammyness being an issue
| when you replicate the entire feed onto a mobile device.
|
| Of course, that practice is not enforced by technical
| means. But it is still quite common. And in that case you
| actually get a notification.
| grey_earthling wrote:
| Depends what you mean by "censorship".
|
| It's free listening -- you have the right to choose whom
| you listen to.
| kitotik wrote:
| One of the cool features of SSB is making actual P2P a first-
| class feature. It works just as well on an isolated private adhoc
| network as it does over the web.
|
| I wish more dencentralized/federated services operated this way.
| vlmutolo wrote:
| Matrix is making p2p a first-class feature, and how they're
| doing it is pretty simple. They're just embedding a
| "homeserver" right onto the user device alongside the client.
|
| With the new fast homeserver efforts, like Dendrite and
| Conduit, this suddenly becomes feasible.
| jlkuester7 wrote:
| Just as a reference for anyone else like me who was not
| familiar with this effort:
| https://matrix.org/blog/2020/06/02/introducing-p-2-p-matrix
| VectorLock wrote:
| I always thought this would be really fun to run over ham radio.
| iuguy wrote:
| This really isn't a good space for most of the people here on HN.
| SSB is very much a work in progress. When I first started trying
| to use the Patchwork client, lots of SSB Pubs were down. It took
| 3 days to get to a point where I could see people.
|
| While censorship isn't directly possible, it's not really in the
| kind of state suitable for lots of people currently departing
| existing social networks and looking for something new.
|
| I'm not saying there isn't potential. Even for the average HN
| user it's possibly ready to try but not yet ready for mainstream
| use.
| dash2 wrote:
| It's kind of funny to think that decentralised apps, built by
| idealistic Silicon Valley hackers, now have a potential core
| audience among extreme MAGA types.
| gfodor wrote:
| I think a lot of the dweb people first got interested in this
| area because they were on BBSes and so on sharing stuff like
| the anarchist's cookbook at risk of getting a visit by the FBI
| and used to think information wanted to be free.
|
| Now they're adults, and have kept their interest in dweb
| technologies, but have come to see "dangerous speech" as a huge
| problem, and are waking up to the realization that their
| technical interests and goals would enable these kinds of
| things. And they're not happy about it, or at the very least
| are experiencing cognitive dissonance. But that was always the
| case, and for many, they were the unsavory people in their
| youth that the older folks were saying were participating in
| dangerous rhetoric and ought to be silenced or investigated,
| just like they are saying now about people who are saying
| things adjacent to things which are illegal.
|
| At the very least we should seek consistency. If you support
| decentralized technology for speech, you should be happy with
| the net benefits and net harms. The alternative is the status
| quo. Arguably the spirit of the internet was not to have what
| we have now.
| cameldrv wrote:
| I agree that the BBS tradition of G-files plays into this,
| but those were very different times. The people downloading
| this sort of stuff were almost exclusively kids who got a
| thrill out of possessing forbidden knowledge, but aside from
| setting off a smoke bomb at an abandoned quarry or something,
| nothing ever came of it. The near mainstream culture of
| prepping and guns and conspiracy is far different than it was
| back then.
|
| I still think that there is a positive place for DWeb
| technologies, but that place is specifically to enable more
| truly free speech. A lot of what got us into this mess is
| that speech on social media is not truly free. The only
| speech that is allowed/promoted on those platforms is that
| which appeals to base instincts, because it is that speech
| that drives revenue for the platforms. What we're allowed to
| say, and have heard, should not depend on what is most
| profitable for a few companies.
| gfodor wrote:
| The problem with your first point is that however true it
| may be, it doesn't provide a good mental framework for
| creating values that are universally applicable. The
| lessons of fearing an FBI visit for just sharing text files
| was correct: being free to speak and not fear oppression
| due to not what you say but what it _implies_ is what
| freedom of speech is. It's quite uncontroversial to say
| that people who explicitly advocate specific violence are
| breaking the just laws around that and should be
| suppressed. The controversy is around what speech adjacent
| to that is not just permissible, but if it's just to jump
| to conclusions about a person's motives or intentions and
| act on them in the absence of illegal speech.
| konjin wrote:
| You will find that the people who were on the unsavoury bbs
| are the people who are against censorship today.
|
| Out of the half dozen people I know from that period in my
| life (2000-2006) not one has had a kind thing to say about
| facebook, google or twitter since 2010. Those firms are the
| lame dinosaur stuck in a tar pit that we made fun of
| Microsoft for being in the 00s.
|
| It's the people who called us nerds and made high school hell
| for us that somehow ended up in hr at tech co and are now
| setting policy there.
| gfodor wrote:
| That may be a more valid perspective, but I don't think
| these are homogeneous groups. I will say it's been
| surprising and disappointing to see people who have been
| railing against tech company centralized power for years,
| it turns out their big issue is more when that power is not
| directed in a direction they like.
| konjin wrote:
| > I will say it's been surprising and disappointing to
| see people who have been railing against tech company
| centralized power for years, it turns out their big issue
| is more when that power is not directed in a direction
| they like.
|
| What else can you do?
|
| Saying that tech co is wrong today is as much career
| suicide as saying that the US deserved 9/11 was in 2002.
| I even had one guy tell me he is going full
| accelerationist on his main twitter because the http
| based internet is a dead end and the more unusable it
| becomes the sooner we will get something better.
| electriclove wrote:
| I agree with your first paragraph but not the rest. We still
| feel information should be free and decentralized technology
| is the future.
| gfodor wrote:
| I'm not saying all dweb people feel this way, I'm in the
| other camp myself. I'm saying part of the dynamic going on
| includes a subset of people who forgot that these aren't
| some global good, they will create both good and harm, like
| anything else.
| newacct583 wrote:
| You're making a false equivalence.[1] The "dweb" people were
| indeed merely anarchic and irresponsible. The deeper,
| conspiracy-minded parts of the MAGA community are verifiably
| dangerous. They said for weeks that a storm is coming, that
| they were going to take washington, that congress had to be
| stopped, that the vice president should be executed, etc...
|
| And then on Wednesday they made the attempt.
|
| Comments like yours are predicated on this idea that speech
| itself can only ever be merely "irresponsible". But... the
| world isn't like that. If you spend years making "jokes"
| about insurrection, you eventually find someone attacking
| congress.
|
| [1] Edit to answer the question below: you are falsely
| equating harmless anarchic geeks of the 80's and 90's with
| violent terrorists. It's not appropriate to manage these
| communities using the same tools.
| gfodor wrote:
| I have no idea what equivalence you're accusing me of, you
| seem to have made up a whole story about what I am saying
| that isn't there.
|
| Edit: OK, I'm not making that equivalence. My use of the
| word "adjacent" was deliberate and intentional. That's the
| point of this whole debate.
| IanDrake wrote:
| I think this is overplayed at this point. You must concede
| one of only two possibilities.
|
| 1) The capitol building has all along been an easy soft
| target that could have been infiltrated by a small
| contingent of terrorist.
|
| 2) The police purposefully stood down and allowed this to
| happen while doing the minimum to make it seem like they
| tried.
|
| Neither option is a good look for our country.
|
| Now compound that with using this event as a popular excuse
| to restrict free speech, when the correct reaction should
| be to improve security at the capitol for any enemy.
|
| If you think this goes away becuse big tech takes even
| moderate voices down, you don't understand what's going on.
| skinkestek wrote:
| Other explanation:
|
| Republicans have mostly posted online, rallied with Trump
| etc while BLM and friends has been torching cities,
| looting etc.
|
| Basically the police weren't expecting anything near this
| from this crowd and it took them by surprise.
|
| Disgusting anyways.
| vmh1928 wrote:
| The white supremacists and other violent right wing
| groups (Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, etc.,) had been
| planning for a while. In plain view of anyone paying
| attention. There was plenty of warning. So, the fact that
| no preparation beyond the waist high barriers was done is
| surprising, no?
| https://www.propublica.org/article/capitol-rioters-
| planned-f...
|
| https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/janelytvynenko/trump
| -ri...
| IanDrake wrote:
| Yes, it was clear security was needed. But this wasn't
| any of those groups.
| flippinburgers wrote:
| I dont see reason for people to downvote you: I find it
| exceptionally hard to believe that the capital building
| does not have a proper response to a small group of
| people trying to storm the building.
|
| Here is my theory: the "coup" was such an utter non-
| threat that those in charge did not want to give an ounce
| of evidence regarding how they could respond in order to
| prevent legitimately threatening bad actors from
| understanding the possibilities.
|
| The side effect of being able to move towards more
| restricted speech is just icing on the cake.
| woah wrote:
| After seeing thousands of soldiers with machine guns in
| full military gear with armored vehicles protecting the
| Capital from Black Lives Matter, your statement sounds
| ridiculous.
| IanDrake wrote:
| Perhaps a history of burning and looting might have had
| some influence in that difference.
|
| Sometimes I wonder, and serious question here, when the
| reporter on TV stands in front of a burning building and
| exclaims the protest is mostly peaceful, do you see the
| building in background on fire?
|
| I mean, I see the capitol building being broken into and
| think "that needs to stop, bring in the military if
| necessary".
| watwut wrote:
| Right wing millitias and groups have history of violence
| last years in USA. They also talked about their plans
| openly. It is not like the bombs they brought to capitol
| were shock this January. It was not first bomb plan.
|
| Also, in videos you see organized trained equipped men in
| uniforms. That is absolutely something agencies are
| expected to follow.
| newacct583 wrote:
| > Here is my theory: the "coup" was such an utter non-
| threat that those in charge did not want to give an ounce
| of evidence regarding how they could respond in order to
| prevent legitimately threatening bad actors from
| understanding the possibilities.
|
| Six people died! How is that an "utter non-threat"? The
| mental revisionism is out of control. How is it that
| people are so unwilling to condemn the most obvious kind
| of political violence imaginable?
| gfodor wrote:
| You can condemn it, be fearful of it, and be specific
| with regards to the threat it presents. It presents
| threats. I assume the specific threat the poster was
| refuting (which I won't throw my 2c on here) is that it
| posed a threat to materializing a new government in the
| United States, which is typically the top of mind threat
| when talking about coups. So citing the number of deaths
| is neither here nor there in assessing the validity that
| it was a legitimate threat to creating a new government
| and ending the previous one.
| IanDrake wrote:
| I hadn't thought of that, yet I see the sense in the
| thought.
|
| However, I don't think providing adequate police presence
| for a planned protest would have been showing your hand.
| eyeball wrote:
| "2) The police purposefully stood down and allowed this
| to happen while doing the minimum to make it seem like
| they tried."
|
| seems likely that the trumpers gave that order so their
| mob could get in
| newacct583 wrote:
| > big tech takes even moderate voices down
|
| Can you cite some "moderate voices" that have been taken
| down by big tech? They're all still up as far as I can
| see. Trump incited an attack on congress. He got banned.
| Parler deliberately cultivated an extreme community of
| violent rhetoric (they really did, have you looked at
| that site?). They got banned. Who else? Seems like only
| people reasonably identifiable as extremists are
| affected.
|
| I remain horrified at the right wing community's ability
| to rationalize violence. The President directed an attack
| on Congress last Wednesday to prevent his opponent's
| certification. And... what people really want to talk
| about is Parler losing their hosting?
|
| (Edit to note that you refused to answer the question and
| jumped off on a WHATABOUTBLM?! tangent instead. In fact,
| contra your hyperbole, no moderate right wing voices have
| been censored or silenced.)
| IanDrake wrote:
| "Trump incited an attack on congress."
|
| Evidence of Trump telling people to storm the capitol?
|
| "I remain horrified at the right wing community's ability
| to rationalize violence"
|
| We'll, I'm right of center and I condemn it. Just like
| I'm sure there is a history of you condemning this entire
| year of BML and Antifa burning and looting cities across
| the US.
|
| I remember what Como said on CNN. "who said protests need
| to be peaceful". Of course CNN is the bastion of right
| wing extremists... Oh wait....
|
| We have to condemn all political violence.
| Causality1 wrote:
| If you spend a whole year burning and looting a city and
| the city is still there you weren't very good at it.
| IanDrake wrote:
| I haven't tried, I make things, not destroy other
| people's things.
| Causality1 wrote:
| Don't get me wrong, there's definitely a double standard
| at work. I recall every news outlet spending bottles of
| ink explaining how massive BLM protests somehow weren't
| spreading covid but now the capitol protests are. However
| I think there's a fundamental difference between breaking
| into a Target and looting it and attacking the capitol of
| the United States. Of particular concern are all of the
| side details. The detail that a threat assessment was not
| done for this protest despite knowing about it weeks in
| advance. The fact the police responded less strongly to
| this attack than they did to a protest by disabled
| veterans in wheelchairs and later took selfies with the
| attackers. The fact that insurgents carrying blue lives
| matter flags beat a police officer to death with a fire
| extinguisher. The detail that the person speaking to this
| crowd just a few hours earlier was the president of the
| United States.
| pii wrote:
| These can both be true
| IanDrake wrote:
| Really? Can a weak man lose an arm wrestling match to a
| stronger opponent and truly say "I let you win?"
|
| Either the authorities were capable of repulsing an
| hundred unarmed civilians or they were not.
|
| I'm unclear how both can be true, but I'm open to ideas.
| dougmwne wrote:
| I worked on Capitol Hill for years. The Capitol is not a
| soft target. Its security measures are taken very
| seriously. Multiple agencies are responsible for its
| protection. Multiple strategies are in play from
| intelligence ops to deadly force. These agencies handle
| crowd control for dozens of very large protests every
| year. They are world experts in preventing violence,
| terrorism, and rioting. The Capitol is the very center of
| our government and the most powerful symbol of democracy
| in the world.
|
| Some things went very wrong. It should not have been
| possible for a loosely organized mob to breach the
| perimeter, let alone get inside. There must have been
| some complicity or even permission. On the other hand,
| some things went exactly as they should have. Lawmakers
| were rapidly taken to safety. No VIPs were injured.
| Bloodshed was kept to a minimum through careful
| deescalation.
|
| Overall I think we came to within inches of a major
| tragedy. It was avoided through a mix of competence and
| incompetence. We were lucky and we should consider
| ourselves warned.
| shp0ngle wrote:
| Gab (the basically Nazi version of Twitter) is the biggest
| Mastodon instance, for example.
| andai wrote:
| Why'd this guy get downvoted? Are either of these assertions
| incorrect?
| notassigned wrote:
| Twitter is the nazi version of twitter, gab is the freedom
| version.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| It's asserted upthread that gab isn't part of the wider
| network anymore, so that's objectively untrue, and "Nazi
| Twitter" is subjective, but a reasonable person could
| question it.
| olah_1 wrote:
| "Nazi" is a racial slur for a white person that doesn't
| hate themselves or their ancestors.
| shrimpx wrote:
| "Nazi" is literally short for NAtionalsoZIalistische
| Deutsche Arbeiterpartei.
| radus wrote:
| I can't believe I have to say this, but no, that is not
| what "nazi" means.
| toyg wrote:
| In some ways we've come full circle: SV was enabled by defence
| types, I bet a lot of the early work in advanced electronics
| and decentralized communications was carried out by "square"
| types who used "socialist" as an insult. There are still plenty
| of traditionalist right-wingers in STEM.
| loopback_device wrote:
| Scuttlebutt wasn't built by "Silicon Valley hackers", but
| people from New Zealand, Sweden etc.
|
| Unrelated to who builds it, decentralized or self-hosted
| platforms have been the go-to place for lots of extremist
| groups, even before MAGA, so not sure what this comment is
| supposed to bring to light?
| woah wrote:
| A lot of Silicon Valley hackers worked on it
| jhardy54 wrote:
| Who? I can't think of a single core contributor who lives
| in California.
|
| The vast majority don't even live in the US. I think I'm
| the closest to SV and I'm in Portland.
| mhd wrote:
| Kind of funny? The US branch of libertarianism ain't exactly
| left wing.
| shrimpx wrote:
| Tech libertarianism (not just US) has always leaned right,
| toward anarcho-capitalism.
| loceng wrote:
| The goal of decentralization isn't to give a voice to people
| inciting violence, however that is a consequence of such
| systems when you share technology with everyone - though we
| shouldn't fear this, we do need to actively and proactively
| counter it at a higher layer, educating people and helping them
| heal their closed heart and mind.
|
| The goal of decentralization is to take power away from
| companies who govern poorly or in a way we don't agree with, so
| our data and network is mobile, so we can "vote" by leaving
| their platform - and not buy their products or services or give
| them our attention to monetize with ads. And then once this
| fluid system exists with a hierarchy of good, good hearted,
| well meaning governors - we must then focus on educating and
| healing the population - where we won't reach them easily in
| the digital world due to self-perpetuating filter bubbles,
| anyone who tries to reason with them are ignored or simply
| ban/blocked to reenforce their echo chamber.
| neogodless wrote:
| You mention educating and healing twice. Could you elaborate
| on who "we" is, and also, _how_ we can go from where we are
| to a place where education and healing is taking place? What
| are the steps we should take?
| loceng wrote:
| I'm writing a slowly book on this, so there's a lot to
| share to answer such a question; I'm also slowly planning
| out a network of health-wellness differentiated online
| platforms to provide practical tools for people to develop
| their self-awareness, to gain and maintain their health.
|
| We is everyone who is conscious enough and on the path of
| good (practice of non-violence to other and self, whether
| specifically acknowledged or not) or of healing, those who
| are more self-aware than not, who have developed their
| critical thinking more and less indoctrinated. There's of
| course a huge spectrum of where people are in this
| evolution or growth stage. Part of the challenge is
| rallying good hearted people, rallying, organizing and
| directing them and resources in the most efficient way
| possible.
|
| The book will be a story of my healing journey including
| the incompetence I've encountered throughout our health
| systems, along with sharing my proposed solutions,
| explaining my own project plans to try to solve for those
| problems by providing practical tools to people. I will
| also be explaining a protocol I'm developing to help guide
| people to develop their self-awareness, to gain and
| maintain health, including everything from food
| sensitivities, fasting, yoga, acupuncture, entheogens like
| Ayahuasca, MDMA-assisted therapy, inner child regression
| therapy, stem cell treatments/regenerative medicine, etc.
|
| In short, it's all about organizing and directing resources
| efficiently, while eliminating the waste. There are deep
| flaws to the health systems: indoctrination, a lack of
| multidisciplinary approach, industrial complexes who've
| influenced the knowledge and current practices, and more.
| The how of getting to a place where education and healing
| is taking place is - every possible way, any entrance point
| to direct people onto the path that they're willing to open
| the door to. For many people they only begin to care about
| their health after an impetus occurs. The reality is most
| people on average aren't very awake, conscious yet, and so
| indoctrination is easy - and then those indoctrinated are
| "sheep" following the status quo - and so what has to
| happen is the culture needs to shift, so then by default
| you're following a path that's healthy and supporting
| critical thinking and self-awareness development - which
| will lead to gaining and maintaining health - individually,
| community wide and globally.
| tyfon wrote:
| Inciting violence is illegal in most countries, you can still
| prosecute people who participate in such actions with a
| decentralised system.
|
| You might not be able to remove their speech but it would
| still have consequences (again in most countries).
|
| This could even be worse for people who engage in such
| activities since you can't remove your words in hindsight!
| I've seen a lot of back-pedalling and removing of tweets from
| people.
| loceng wrote:
| If you can find out who they are then certainly they could
| be prosecuted, it's one reason I feel or think that in the
| future I mostly only want to engage on platforms -
| decentralized or not - that have an identity verification
| for the accounts so any bad or unacceptable behaviour can
| be addressed.
|
| I still juggle in my head as to what kinds of behaviour
| would be acceptable or not - things like racism, calls for
| violence would be obvious and go through a review and
| moderation protocol and start with temporary suspensions (a
| time out in the corner), and after X offences, then a block
| or limiting of function until some other remedy is met.
| Where I wonder how much of a caring hand to impose when
| necessary are things surrounding say bullying or perhaps
| someone being non-critical or arguably abusive by simply
| saying "you're stupid" or other name calling. Arguably I'd
| want people on the platforms I engage on to be trying to
| improve themselves, to grow, to improve their emotional
| regulation and manage that impulse or energy that leads
| them to calling someone stupid instead into developing a
| deeper understanding - responding instead of reacting; or
| realizing engaging with certain people is futile, and to
| put their energy and passion more into the physical world
| instead of their keyboard. I wonder how many people are
| ready for such an environment, for that level of a safe
| space.
| camdenlock wrote:
| > educating people and helping them heal their closed heart
| and mind
|
| > we must then focus on educating and healing the population
|
| Do you not see how wrong this sounds? Who gets to create this
| "healing" education curriculum which will "open hearts and
| minds"?
| loceng wrote:
| You're making an assumption - you're assuming my statement
| means there's force involved, which what I said doesn't
| insinuate that. You can educate society by putting ads on
| TV, as one example - which I am arguably against ads
| because of their shallow, cheap, manipulative aspect of
| them - but it's the status quo and perhaps an acceptable
| bridge to use. And indeed, who determines the curriculum
| will be the individual that wants to follow it. It has in
| fact been historically bad when a government body states
| something health wise as fact - such as the "Food Pyramids"
| of what your daily diet should consist of, which still is
| heavily influenced by food industrial complexes.
|
| Another assumption you've made is there would be a singular
| curriculum, which I never argued for either. Learning and
| healing will be decentralized and fluid to some degree, the
| effort must be in providing the resources for people to
| access the healing and education, while skillfully
| directing people through the nuances and also providing
| whatever tools they may need to succeed at the practices
| they will benefit from taking on, and access to diagnostics
| that can give insight and help guide someone to help them
| orient through problem solving.
|
| We're all at different points on our path, of our
| understanding, some further along in one area than another
| and then you can learn from them - or teach them something
| they're less familiar if they're interested in that moment
| of interaction with you or what you've put out in the
| world. In fact you want a huge amount of diversity - people
| who explain things differently, people who have different
| personalities - we need the diversity to be attractive to
| diverse people. There does need to be a core protocol that
| gets developed, evolves, and should be referenced and a
| research methodology followed for conflicts that may
| appear, where disagreement occurs say of one practitioner
| calling bullshit on some claim someone else is making. One
| of my previous family physicians, middle aged man - not
| very healthy himself, was skeptical and didn't believe stem
| cell treatments I had - the healing that had already
| occurred - he was skeptical, didn't believe that it
| actually helped and that any benefit I may be experience
| wouldn't last; stem cell treatments 100% work for
| regenerating/healing many tissues of the body if the doctor
| knows what they're doing, however this is an example of a
| disconnect between current knowledge (stem cells have been
| being used for treatment for 25-30 years now) vs.
| mainstream understanding; this also points to a broken,
| stagnant system of how most doctors aren't knowledgable in
| the latest (not talking about within the last year of
| knowledge but it seems to take decades in some cases for
| the knowledge to propagate to the front line).
|
| One of my goals is to create a system where community
| thrives, community which means relationship building and
| learning through communicating, and a system where the
| brightest stars are able to shine so more people are
| attracted to what they have to share - and hopefully learn
| from it - and then those students become teachers and so
| the process continues.
|
| I can see how someone can easily interpret what I said,
| fear being invoked that this "must educate" people could be
| akin to the CCP's "re-education camps" - however no, I'm
| solely talking about voluntary participation - but there
| are ways to lead people towards healing practices, ways to
| incentivizes it, ways to make it more available, more
| accessible.
| [deleted]
| VectorLock wrote:
| Remove "decentralized" and you largely described Twitter's
| trajectory.
| vmh1928 wrote:
| In Germany the government used census data tabulated on IBM
| punchcard equipment to find who to round up. Later, during the
| liquidation phase of the effort each camp had punch card
| equipment to help with maintaining the inventory of slave labor
| skills. That's what the number on the arm was for - the primary
| key. Copies of punched cards were sent to the central
| administrative HQ of the camp organization for additional
| processing and were used to identify specific skilled people
| who needed to be moved to other camps. Authoritarians rely on
| the stupid for the grunt work but they're not stupid themselves
| and can exploit technology to achieve their goals.
| AndrewUnmuted wrote:
| Given their past, I found it just a little rich, that IBM so
| publicly decried the recent "insurrection." [0]
|
| [0]
| https://twitter.com/ArvindKrishna/status/1346932293991079936
| spockz wrote:
| Well the IBM of today has little to do with the IBM of 80
| years ago. Just like the Germany of today has little to do
| with what happened 80 years ago and people living now are
| not and should not be held responsible for the misdeeds of
| previous generations.
| AndrewUnmuted wrote:
| > people living now are not and should not be held
| responsible for the misdeeds of previous generations.
|
| I'm sure we could all agree on this point.
|
| However, the aspects of IBM that led to their assisting
| the Third Reich are still very much alive at IBM today.
| It remains in the form of their core business model of
| assisting the world's most powerful regimes in automating
| oppression, autocracy, and authoritarianism at a global
| scale.
| spockz wrote:
| Okay fair point. But sadly that holds for most companies.
| There are remarkably few of them that do not sell or
| provide support on FOSS to big governments that in turn
| do all kinds of nasty things. How can we change this, if
| at all? Isn't it part of capitalism?
| dash2 wrote:
| How is this relevant to my point or the article?
| vmh1928 wrote:
| it was in response to the comment about decentralized apps
| built by idealistic silicon valley types being used by MAGA
| types. The point being that it might be funny to him but
| authoritarians do have a track record of exploiting
| technology.
| [deleted]
| ImprobableTruth wrote:
| I think it's actually rather sad. I think there is a good
| chance that these in my opinion very important technologies
| will get a bad reputation because of this.
| hobofan wrote:
| You mean like the bad reputation that has been established
| for ages that decentralized technologies are "only good for"
| piracy, CP, etc.?
| andai wrote:
| Same with encryption, no? Also, you forgot to mention
| terrorism.
| hobofan wrote:
| Of course this is highly subject, but I think that the
| view of the general public is generally favorable towards
| encryption (as it also provides privacy), and
| governments/law enforcement agencies have again more
| recently tried to paint it in a bad light. I think the
| jury is still out whether that is successful, and the
| public will adapt that opinion too.
| weavie wrote:
| I know very little about Scuttlebutt, but supposing, say an ex-
| president decided to start using it. Would it be able to handle
| the level of traffic this might generate?
|
| I realise it's decentralised, but would that, for example, at
| some point require every one who were to get on Scuttlebutt to
| download on 80gb file in order to get started?
| exo762 wrote:
| Segregation is what you get when you permanently remove people
| from platforms. Sounds almost like a truism.
| tyfon wrote:
| I see this is append only[1], so my biggest question is really if
| you are following someone that posts illegal content like child
| porn, is it stuck on your profile forever or can you somehow
| remove it?
|
| [1] https://ssbc.github.io/ssb-db/
| nanomonkey wrote:
| Blob storage (images and other binary media) is stored in your
| file-system utilizing it's content addressable hash as a
| filename. You can delete these at any time. The append only log
| is for json messages, which will make reference to the hashes
| of the blobs through markdown.
|
| So, the message referencing the illegal content can't be
| removed without removing the user's whole ledger, but the
| content can be removed at any time.
| tyfon wrote:
| Ah, but that's good enough.
|
| The system is interesting I was just afraid of people having
| the ability to "brick" your account so to speak by sending
| illegal stuff to it.
|
| If I can effectively delete the other user (ledger)
| completely from my system that would also be good :)
| toxik wrote:
| I got the app Manyverse, now what?
| hjacobs wrote:
| You need to connect with others. I think Manyverse is best used
| with SSB rooms where you can find others (to connect/follow),
| see https://github.com/staltz/ssb-room/blob/master/FAQ.md
|
| Alternative is a Pub, but joining a Pub is not so great with
| Manyverse as it will download a lot of content to your mobile
| phone.
| adkadskhj wrote:
| I absolutely love the simplicity of Scuttlebutt, but the APIs and
| (dev)user extensibility are anything but, imo. I hope for
| continued work there.
|
| As an example, i wanted to write an application on top of SSB. I
| found it difficult to determine _how_ to achieve this though.
| Conceptually the appendlog is stupid simple, but SSB still has
| meaningful complexity in the secure handshake implementation.
| While they do have libs, it mostly seemed JavaScript (NodeJS) was
| the only meaningfully complete lib to use (where as i am on
| Rust). I also found it difficult to determine what the network
| would accept. If i write an app and start pushing blobs onto the
| network, will they reject it because they're not of the same
| type? What if my data is too big? Am i abusing the net?
|
| I also had difficulty conceptualizing how to write app data in
| SSB. It felt like i needed to abandon SQL or common application
| interfaces for data. Having to reinvent wheels in the application
| code because SSB-data is mostly _(i think?)_ a JSON blob store
| felt bad.
|
| Shared identities also proved to be a bit of a blocker. Since the
| app i was writing wanted multiple devices to author data the
| notion of a device identity came up, and at the time that didn't
| seem well _(or at all)_ supported. I didn 't want to invent my
| own mechanism that would later seem invalid to the community.
|
| For now i decided to hold off and implement my own SSB friendly
| data storage mechanism. Since i know the data layer of SSB is
| simple, and SSB folks have proven it can handle Git fine (they
| distribute their source in SSB iirc). I imagine my own data later
| will plug into SSB without issue.
|
| These aren't critiques of SSB exactly, just highlighting some
| areas _(for anyone interested)_ where SSB is currently weak in my
| mind. I love SSB. Even if i end up using an entirely different
| p2p tech stack than SSB, it has changed my way of thinking on
| this. What SSB does right is everything that i dislike about
| IPFS. SSB is small, simple tooling. It feels like Git. Not some
| huge complex network of IPFS nodes, but 2 people, 3 people. It
| can work over P2P, email, floppy disk. It can be more, but it
| also can be less. And that 's something more projects could
| adopt.
| pmayrgundter wrote:
| Thanks for the analysis. Have you checked out Matrix? I'm
| looking for a p2p network layer and am most attracted to it so
| far but haven't used any of them yet
| adkadskhj wrote:
| I've been debating Matrix too! Though, i've not looked into
| it. My hope was to make (as i mentioned) a Git-like layer for
| my data that was in the way i wanted _(wheels reinvented
| hah)_ , which would work over SSH/Email/etc, and then plug it
| into a mature P2P setup. Matrix is definitely on the list of
| P2P impls i want to look into.
|
| Though so far i've never heard of anyone actually using
| Matrix for a generic P2P backend. I'm curious what you've
| found on Matrix for this use case?
| pmayrgundter wrote:
| Just been poking around the site really, and I dig their
| vision. This in particular is inspiring and exactly what
| I've been hoping for too for a long time:
|
| https://matrix.org/blog/2017/04/04/opening-up-cyberspace-
| wit...
| nanomonkey wrote:
| I agree that the nodejs implementation makes contributing and
| using the libraries difficult. There are rust libraries being
| worked on and incorporated into the project as we speak, so if
| you feel like contributing, now might be a good time to look
| back into the project.
|
| Alternatively, if you're interested in a replicated datatype
| that was written specifically for Rust, which is more compact
| than JSON, I'd suggest looking at RON:
|
| http://replicated.cc/ https://github.com/gritzko/ron
| jhardy54 wrote:
| I've wanted to write a longer blog post about this, but after a
| few years of working on SSB I appreciate you highlighting these
| pain points. I think everyone in the SSB maintainer community
| feels the same way.
|
| My hot take: Scuttlebutt should be something that you can
| implement yourself in an afternoon. I've done this a few times,
| using Python, Node.js, and Deno, but I've only implemented the
| message type. (Not Multiserver, MuxRPC, Secret-Handshake, Box-
| Strean, Private-Box, or any of the other protocols that are
| associated with SSB.)
|
| > It feels like Git.
|
| You got it. You could express an SSB chain with Git and a pre-
| commit hook (to verify messages), but using Git as your
| database is even harder than learning the toy database that SSB
| uses.
|
| Various links:
|
| - My SSB data expressed as a Git repository (outdated):
| https://github.com/christianbundy/ssb-git-data
|
| - My speedrun SSB implementation with SQLite, using HTTP for
| replication: https://github.com/christianbundy/http-ssb
| dgellow wrote:
| It's also available on mobile: https://www.manyver.se/
| type0 wrote:
| Last time I looked it was half baked and not easy to use, has it
| changed in recent years or months and can it be considered
| practical in a way that let's say Matrix is?
| cel wrote:
| Some updates:
|
| Oasis is a new frontend (alternative to the Patchwork desktop
| app): https://github.com/fraction/oasis/
|
| Manyverse continues development, including working on low-level
| database improvements, and gossip "rooms":
| https://www.manyver.se/blog/2021-01-update
|
| Planetary (iOS app) approaches public launch:
| https://planetary.social/
| https://viewer.scuttlebot.io/%25kXEXGmyNyo%2BuKkcySMwghVKpvR...
| olah_1 wrote:
| Manyverse's work on room servers version 2 will be huge.
|
| The rooms will function a lot more like real life buildings.
| Some will be private like homes, some will be public like
| libraries, others will be restricted like a club.
|
| Really cool development!
| jamil7 wrote:
| It also spun up my laptops fans for minutes when syncing, I
| don't know if thats still an issue. Cool project though and
| there are some interesting people involved and contributing.
| pluc wrote:
| That's like running a blockchain on your laptop - it first
| has to get the entire (in some cases, relevant) history so
| that it can act as a peer.
| hjacobs wrote:
| Yes, the initial syncing and indexing can take a moment. I
| would recommend joining a single Pub or SSB room [1] to find
| people and grow your network organically. The large Pubs [2]
| have a lot of content to download and also follow bots (which
| you would have to block).
|
| [1] https://github.com/staltz/ssb-room/blob/master/FAQ.md [2]
| https://github.com/ssbc/ssb-server/wiki/Pub-Servers
| newscracker wrote:
| I have similar questions too. It seemed as if it was tied to a
| single device and transferring information from one to another
| also seemed cumbersome.
| hobofan wrote:
| Yes[0]. AFAIK fully transferring an identity from one device
| to the next should not be a problem. The problem is more that
| updating the feed from multiple devices would create
| diverging feeds.
|
| [0]: https://github.com/ssbc/handbook.scuttlebutt.nz/blob/mas
| ter/...
| grey_earthling wrote:
| It's common for one person to have multiple
| feeds/identities, so this is less of a problem than you
| might expect.
|
| There's no structured way to indicate that 2 feeds are the
| same person (aka #sameAs), but you can easily link to the
| other feed and just say "this is also me" (because your
| audience is a bunch of humans that mostly pass the Turing
| test).
|
| Because of this, we get the bonus feature that you can
| easily follow a different set of feeds on different devices
| -- e.g. perhaps on your phone you want feeds you're less
| likely to reply to, because you prefer typing on a physical
| keyboard.
| crossroadsguy wrote:
| Every time I try it, it reminds me of Matrix. So near, yet so
| far.
| StavrosK wrote:
| How do I get started with SSB? I've downloaded Manyverse probably
| six times now, and then got blocked on "find something to join
| somewhere, good luck!".
|
| Does anyone have a community? Otherwise I'll make one for HN.
|
| EDIT: Join me:
|
| hnpub.stavros.io:38213:@PJtGRbz9IwtobscVq+i4a8y0zZBc2j220D5jsoyKg
| aw=.ed25519~OezW1tkZu9dX/x7uhDLL/7m5xUosz68NeoqfDjhnYXQ=
| Groxx wrote:
| Historically, I got sizable streams of posts by joining a
| couple pubs. None of which are _offered_ in Manyverse, for good
| or bad. (definitely un-ideal for first-time users, but it does
| at least avoid overloading or over-promoting some)
|
| The "get started" docs on the website do walk you through it
| though, e.g. https://scuttlebutt.nz/get-started/#step-3-get-
| connected -> this smallish list of pubs:
| https://github.com/ssbc/ssb-server/wiki/Pub-Servers
|
| ---
|
| I did join yours via Manyverse, but tbh I'm surprised that
| viewing your pub doesn't show member join/leaves, and I haven't
| seen any posts yet (I've made one). Have you made any? Could it
| be having problems perhaps?
|
| (edit: and shortly after posting this, now I see some stuff,
| after around 45m. So my initial minorish-complaint about
| Manyverse from a year or so ago is still around: it doesn't
| tell you what it's doing. Patchwork was much better about that,
| though it kinda looked like constant thrashing.)
| StavrosK wrote:
| I agree with you, I don't really understand what Manyverse is
| doing. I see posts, but I don't know if they come from the
| pub, or from following someone directly, or what. I see four
| posts that I think are from the pub, but if you don't see
| them they might not be. I also see someone's stream, and I'm
| not sure why...
|
| All in all, it's very confusing.
| Groxx wrote:
| Yep. It's intentionally a bit of a minimal client, to make
| things more mobile friendly, and... it sorta works out. If
| you want to see more detail and higher quality, definitely
| try Patchwork.
|
| For manyverse in particular: if it doesn't show something
| you think it should, or it says it's indexing, give it a
| while. Like, a lot of while. After the database got a bit
| large and something got confused and caused a rebuild, it
| took over 30 minutes to recover. But it does actually
| recover.
| StavrosK wrote:
| Thanks for the info, I'll try Patchwork for now to get a
| better sense of how it works.
| merricksb wrote:
| Past related discussions for those curious:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22915460 (2020)
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22909984 (2020)
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20828356 (2019)
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16877603 (2018)
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16273096 (2018)
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14050049 (2017)
|
| And other smaller ones over the years...
|
| https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
| that_guy_iain wrote:
| That landing page needs a text TL;DR; explaination and not just a
| video explaination.
| black_puppydog wrote:
| Luckily this is HN and someone wrote one already:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25715385
| pluc wrote:
| Make a goddamn effort
| johnnyfaehell wrote:
| Make a goddamn effort to figure out why someone's project is
| worth time investigating? Literally, that landing page has a
| video and links to articles. I don't want to spend minutes
| watching an ad. I went to the about page and read the info I
| should have read next to the video and understood what was
| what in 10 seconds.
|
| Expecting people to make an effort to find out if a
| product/project is useful to them is basically asking not to
| have as many users. Basically, you just wasted your time
| building the product.
| pluc wrote:
| If you're relying on Marketing to tell you what's worth
| your time then you must be one sad sad person.
|
| Read the documentation, if you're here you're pretending to
| be a technical person. Be a technical person.
| johnnyfaehell wrote:
| Some of us value our time. And this is not a techincal
| project it's an end user project. So as an end user I
| want to know quickly if it's worth my time. Even on a
| techincal project I want to know a rough overview within
| a minute or so of reading. Marketing is all about giving
| people the info they need fast. Marketing is about
| selling the benefits and telling of the pains it solves.
| If you're unable to do that for your project, why did you
| build it?
|
| And I think the person who spends their time reading
| techincal documentation to decide if a social network is
| worth using is probably sadder than the person who goes
| and reads the about page. Not got much else to do?
| joshuakelly wrote:
| SSB is such a wonderful idea. There's no global timeline -- just
| archipelagos. It assumes that network heterogeny is the default,
| and is transmission layer agnostic. Breakages will occur. Maybe
| you're living on a catamaran in the South Pacific and you only
| have connectivity once a month -- SSB will work even then.
|
| Your own timeline is a sigchain -- a sequenced list of signed
| messages. You replicate the content in your network (2 hops
| away). Bridges between communities can be built or burned. Many
| islands can exist without needing to erase the others from even
| existing -- mutual separation is possible. Consensus is not
| necessary.
|
| Is global network culture still possible? If it is, in the midst
| of the national internets we now live inside of, I suspect it
| will look something like this. A little different from what we
| were promised, but maybe a little better too.
| lgierth wrote:
| Founder actually lives on a boat in NZ
| joshuakelly wrote:
| That's where that reference comes from of course :)
| sytse wrote:
| And maybe also SSB, which also stands for Single Side Band
| and is a way to get data over marine radio.
| instakill wrote:
| Do you have links to expounded, introductory writing? I'd love
| to look into this type of architecture and play around with
| other domains.
| joshuakelly wrote:
| For a look at SSB in particular, I would strong recommend the
| protocol guide -- it explains the core ideas quite well,
| which I think are broadly applicable to future networks of
| this pattern: https://ssbc.github.io/scuttlebutt-protocol-
| guide/
| Scoundreller wrote:
| > Is global network culture still possible?
|
| I'm thinking the next constellation of LEO satellites will
| cover the planet with high-latency (e.g.: 90 minutes) and high-
| bandwidth connections. If someone can fulfill your request in
| your footprint, you'll have low-latency bandwidth for a few
| minutes. Otherwise, someone else in the shell will send it up
| later once the satellite is in your footprint and get it down
| to you later once you're back in the footprint.
|
| All you need to do is send a request to someone else in your
| shell and they'll upload it the next time the satellite passes.
|
| Probably some centralized or decentralized crypto payment to
| make it all happen. Still need cheaper phased-beam arrays
| though.
| jwalton wrote:
| I really like the idea of Scuttlebutt. I think there are a couple
| of things it needs on top of what it already has;
|
| Right now, your public key is who you are, which I think is a
| mistake. It's easy to imagine a world where we have a "web of
| trust" solution here, where you can scan someone's public key
| from a QR code straight off their phone, and then sign said key
| so other people who trust you know that the key is legit. Then
| you could use that key to sign future keys, allowing easy key
| rotation. It would also be easy to post a message signed with
| your private key that revokes a key and all messages it has
| authored/all keys it has signed.
|
| I also think there needs to be multiple transports for posting
| content - if I want to send a message to my buddy Dan, I should
| be able to send it directly to him if he's online. If he isn't,
| though, I should be able to let other users whom we both know
| grab a copy to pass on to him later, or maybe have a "deaddrop"
| server or a "pub" where I can stash messages and have them get
| picked up by someone else later.
|
| It needs a top-notch client, too. Something to compete with
| Facebook and Twitter.
|
| But it's a very promising start, and it's the way this needs to
| go if we're ever going to escape the surveillance players in this
| industry - we need a social network that's truly distributed,
| based on open standards that anyone can implement.
| Groxx wrote:
| > _I also think there needs to be multiple transports for
| posting content - if I want to send a message to my buddy Dan,
| I should be able to send it directly to him if he 's online. If
| he isn't, though, I should be able to let other users whom we
| both know grab a copy to pass on to him later, or maybe have a
| "deaddrop" server or a "pub" where I can stash messages and
| have them get picked up by someone else later._
|
| Scuttlebutt is built around enabling this as a (the?) primary
| feature. It's not just "supported", the entire ecosystem does
| this by design. It even calls that kind of server "pubs"
| (they're normal peers, they just auto-follow anyone who asks).
| robertlagrant wrote:
| I clicked get started and nothing happened. Pretty pictures on
| the website, though.
| IvanSologub wrote:
| This is an eternal problem for radical crypto enthusiasts.
| faeyanpiraat wrote:
| I would rather not download any executables to test this out.
|
| Is this a web app packaged into an app?
|
| Then why not simply allow me to open it in my browser?
| hjacobs wrote:
| The Oasis SSB client [1] is a webapp which you open in the
| browser. Oasis (like nearly all SSB clients) is a JavaScript
| package which you can install via npm.
|
| [1] https://github.com/fraction/oasis
| neartheplain wrote:
| On the topic of untrusted executables, is there a decent GUI to
| run arbitrary programs inside the MacOS app sandbox? Last I
| checked, users still had to fiddle with config files and
| command-line incantations, but at least it was possible:
|
| https://paolozaino.wordpress.com/2015/08/04/how-to-run-your-...
| kseistrup wrote:
| There is Feedless [?] https://feedless.social/
|
| However, it has some serious limitations compared to e.g.
| Oasis. One of them is that it limits messages to 140
| characters, where all other apps I know of accept up to 8192
| characters (including metadata).
| arj wrote:
| There is a browser based demo you can try out at:
| https://between-two-worlds.dk/.
|
| It's the latest build of https://github.com/arj03/ssb-browser-
| demo.
|
| If you need an id to follow to get some data, you can try
| following
| @6CAxOI3f+LUOVrbAl0IemqiS7ATpQvr9Mdw9LC4+Uv0=.ed25519. You need
| to manually add either a room or a pub under connections first.
| madushan1000 wrote:
| It's p2p, no webapps.
| black_puppydog wrote:
| I think this comment comes closest to the "correct" answer
| here:
|
| > It's p2p, no webapps.
|
| That is to say, this is not a "service" that you use, so there
| is no scuttlebutt.com where you just sign up. The software
| running the replication, and the storage backing it, will be
| local. Insofar you will always eventually _want_ to run this
| locally.
|
| Now, _of course_ some fine folks are working around that with
| modern web tech (see @arj 's sibling comment) but the whole
| idea of this project is that you will locally control your
| data.
| umvi wrote:
| So is this basically like YikYak?
| pantalaimon wrote:
| not at all - doesn't YikYak rely on a central server?
| sor1nmarkov wrote:
| @realdonaldtrump can install it on Hilary's mail servers
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