[HN Gopher] Deep neck flexor exercises - Back and neck
___________________________________________________________________
Deep neck flexor exercises - Back and neck
Author : whereistimbo
Score : 165 points
Date : 2021-01-09 11:27 UTC (11 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.sprintphysio.co.uk)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.sprintphysio.co.uk)
| mancerayder wrote:
| Someone below wrote, " Doing these gives me a 100% guaranteed 3
| day long headache. "
|
| I have something like this and I've spent many years trying to
| figure it out. One MRI (which showed nada), three or four
| doctors, several years of physical therapy, and a personal
| trainer who studied the problem later, and I am concluding the
| following:
|
| - I have loosey goosey joints more than other people. It's not
| extreme but enough.
|
| - I have usage of computers that far exceeds 90% of the
| population (12+ hours a day).
|
| - When the joints are loose, things get inflamed. When tendons
| and the joint structures get inflamed, the bodies responds
| protectively by tightening (turning on) stabilizer muscles
|
| - Stabilizer muscles can be weak and thus get overworked, causing
| spasms and other issues
|
| - Tight muscles can cause imbalances, further causing a chain
| reaction of more inflammation and spasms
|
| I've been doing weightlifting (not bodybuilding which you should
| _not_ do if you value your body long-term! Strength Training and
| a bit of Olympic Weightlifting) for a number of years. I 've been
| analyzing and thinking about posture for years. I'm typing this
| on a standing desk at home that has a monitor with an
| articulating arm (similar setup at work). I use left and right
| mice alternating. I sit and stand, alternating. I do neck
| stretches every morning and some isometric neck stuff. I suspect
| part of my problem is shoulder mobility so I also do daily
| scapular work.
|
| Yet. I suffer from neck pain every few days with flare-ups that
| last days and sometimes go away for a week or two.
|
| Medicine: You Suck! We can send robots to Mars and make self-
| driving cars, but due to the incoherence of modern medicine, I
| spend hours watching Yoga and PT videos and end up memorizing the
| names of bones and joints and physiological movements. And I
| suffer. Fuck you, Medicine!
|
| Glad I got that off my chest.
| bpizzi wrote:
| Damn, I'm exactly on the same boat! I found that wearing a
| dental splint at night help a lot.
| cadence- wrote:
| I have exactly the same thing. Plus last year (2020 was truly
| shitty) I developed a frozen shoulder, which now prevents me
| from doing many exercises that used to help me. My other
| shoulder is starting to hurt too now, and I'm mentally
| preparing myself to having both shoulders frozen this year. I
| have been to many doctors, and had lots of tests (x-ray,
| MRI,ultrasound) but they cannot find anything. Doctors are
| mostly useless for things like this. They are only helpful when
| you have accidents with obvious broken or damaged bonuses and
| tissues etc.
| mancerayder wrote:
| What's frozen shoulder?
|
| Have you tried stretching (gently) the levator scapula
| stretch (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSoXPJRnR6E)? I've
| recently started doing this 1-2 a day. I hold my elbow more
| to the sky and out than she is doing (sometimes using a
| doorway to help keep my elbow up), and I hold it for 1m on
| each side.
|
| The levator scapula attaches to the cervical spine at one
| end, and the top of the scapula on the other. Shoulder and
| neck problems can occur in a chain and in a sort of domino
| effect.
| drpgq wrote:
| I had frozen shoulder last year and it really sucked. I was
| pretty despondent as it didn't seem to be getting better
| going to physio endlessly, but eventually it started getting
| better and is pretty good now. Seems like a condition that
| isn't very well understood. It can be pretty debilitating.
| gumby wrote:
| > Medicine: You Suck! [its complex and doesn't work]
|
| Having worked in drug development (and no longer do) I can tell
| you that everyone in the field knows it sucks and also that you
| should be (very favorably) astonished that it works at all.
|
| Biological systems are so insanely complex that they are barely
| understood; most medical treatments are attempts to perturb a
| single variable (of a system with billions of variables) in the
| hope that it has a big enough positive effect.
|
| Insanely complex mRNA vaccines are "trivial" by comparison.
|
| When you make a spacecraft as you describe you may have a
| million moving parts. Their operating domain is well known,
| they typically only do one or two things, and they can operate
| in a system that can be isolated (this is the crew capsule; it
| operates in a vacuum and gets power from the power module...).
| By comparison a human body is many many billions of parts
| (brain itself is 80 giganeurons) including many that are not
| even human, all interacting in parallel (those 80 GN brain
| cells each has a dendritic fan out of around 10^5, plus new
| means of connection are still being found); all flooding with
| various signalling (electrical, hormonal, etc) which is the
| result of object code being extensively modified over 400
| million years.
|
| And that's just for a single organism (which is how we
| erroneously consider a human being). Humans are themselves
| parts of complex interacting extracorpal systems of food,
| actions, and other environmental factors which cannot be
| controlled because unlike a piece of metal or a silicon die in
| a ceramic package we interact with the majority of them.
|
| There are a lot of very smart people in computer science but my
| qualitative impression is that while there a smaller proportion
| of smart people in the life sciences, the average IQ of those
| latter group is _significantly_ higher.
|
| Even though I still follow the literature, I have a "holy shit
| how did someone figure that out?" moment several times a week.
| kasperni wrote:
| > I suspect part of my problem is shoulder mobility so I also
| do daily scapular work.
|
| I've had some great results with:
|
| - Kettlebell work. TGU/Halos/Arm bar are all great exercises
| for shoulder health/strengt/mobility.
|
| - Dead hangs [1].
|
| - Some light stick mobility exercises such as [2].
|
| [1] https://www.t-nation.com/training/tip-two-surprising-
| exercis...
|
| [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dn1IBowxflw
| mancerayder wrote:
| I was doing deadhangs but I also suffer from elbow pain from
| a mix of pullups (which I've since not done for a while) and
| squats. I think deadhangs are great for "decompressing" the
| spine, though.
|
| I was doing TGU for a while, I should get back into it. Part
| of it is pandemic-lack-of-space, and part of it is, overhead
| movements cen trigger the headaches.
| solinent wrote:
| Another in addition to these excellent suggestions would be
| scapular pullups and scapular pushups.
| mtalantikite wrote:
| When I started my yoga asana practice I ended up uncovering
| some shoulder dyskinesis I hadn't been aware of from years
| and years of programming. That turned into a pretty bad
| shoulder injury that has on the plus side taught me a lot
| about my body.
|
| One thing I learned is that a lot of shoulder stuff comes
| from tightness of the pec minor, which now in retrospect is
| pretty obvious. Some things that I do that have really helped
| with shoulder stuff:
|
| 1) Shoulder dislocates with an aikido jo. Any rigid stick
| works, like a broom handle.
|
| 2) Camel pose (ustrasana), but coming into it a bit
| differently than is usually taught in yoga classes. Keep your
| knees hips width distance apart, with your toes tucked under
| (rather than pointed), and sit on your heels. Grab your heels
| with your fingers on the inside of your feet (if you were to
| open your hand your thumbs will be pointing directly
| backwards). Make sure you have good shoulder rotation here.
| Now lift your pelvis up while holding on to your feet, get
| your pelvis stacked over your knees, and think about lifting
| your chest to the sky. Send your breath into your upper chest
| for 5-7 breaths and then come out the way you came in. This
| really opened my pec minor.
|
| 3) Gomukhasana with arms clasped behind your back. Use a
| strap if you can't get the bind (it might take a while for
| this rotation to open).
|
| 4) Pull-ups. Lots of pull ups. Started with dead hangs, then
| would do 50% of max 6x times per day 3-4 days a week. Would
| retest max every 3 weeks. Got myself to about 15 per set
| before I decided I didn't need to do _that_ many pull ups.
|
| 5) cat cow with wrists flipped, fingers pointed backwards.
| Really focusing on the shoulder rotation and getting straight
| arm scapular engagement.
|
| 6) Infraspinatus strengthening a few times per week with
| light weight. Exercises were described in this article:
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3655748/
|
| 7) Lots of side planks (vasisthasana). Be careful with this
| one, it can do a lot of harm if you go too hard with it
| before you're ready.
|
| 8) Not for shoulder per-se, but what really strengthened my
| neck muscles over the years has been practicing headstand the
| way it's taught in ashtanga vinyasa yoga. (Sirsasana ->
| urdhva dandasana -> sirsasana -> childs pose).
|
| During quarantine I started supplementing my regular yoga
| asana practice with Dylan Werner's True Strength series and I
| highly recommend it if people are wanting an incremental body
| weight training series. Lots of mobility work in there too.
| prox wrote:
| I'd like to add one thing that is often overlooked and that
| is simply walking. It can help sort out a lot of problems
| by moving all joints in rhythmic manner.
| namaemuta wrote:
| Something really difficult to do nowadays with the COVID
| lockdowns...
| prox wrote:
| I hope you can still walk outside alone with distancing!
| mancerayder wrote:
| I love this list.
|
| Word about pull-ups. I was doing pullups 3X a week, and I
| tried not overtrain by a very very gradual increase over
| months in an Excel-sheet-level programming, since the
| pandemic and I got a pull-up bar at home. I was super
| careful. And yet it happened - it's called Golfer's Elbow
| and it's technically called medial epicondylitis, and it
| hella sucks. It lasts many months, it doesn't magically go
| away if you do nothing, because I think it's due to a
| muscle imbalance (impossible to confirm that via online
| research, just anecdotal), and it's very painful. In the
| mornings I get a stinging elbow pain just by lifting a
| piece of paper or scratching my head.
|
| So careful with the pullups.
|
| Your cat cow with wrists flipped sounds very intriguing,
| I'm going to explore that.
|
| It's interesting that Yoga fixed you up. Glad that helped
| and thank you for sharing.
| rsync wrote:
| "Shoulder dislocates with an aikido jo. Any rigid stick
| works, like a broom handle."
|
| Can you elaborate ? I believe you are saying you
| intentionally dislocate your shoulder but I am skeptical
| that that is actually a thing ... I think maybe you mean
| you are adjusting, or popping, your shoulder ?
|
| Genuinely curious ...
| kasperni wrote:
| You don't actually dislocate your shoulder. It is just a
| drill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02HdChcpyBs
| newsclues wrote:
| Got hit by a car and I've concluded doctors are largely a
| decade or more out of date on a lot of things, especially diet
| and non-obvious injuries.
| bbatha wrote:
| It's sort of built into the profession: medical practice is
| inherently little-c conservative. Doctors are trained
| throughly to practice the precautionary principle because
| it's easier to cause more harm. Often with good reason
| imagine you're a surgeon and a new procedure comes out that's
| 92% effective and the one you learned in school and have
| hundreds of hours of practice in is 89% effective. That boost
| is worth it in theory but are you going to risk a few
| patients while you learn it along the way? That benefit needs
| to be much larger in the aggregate. This is also assuming
| it's something reach FDA certification, etc. scientific
| research is often a decade ahead of the market any way in any
| field.
|
| Then there's also the reality that doctors at least in the US
| are incredibly over worked and keeping up with a wide variety
| of scientific literature is just not practical. This is
| coupled to an increased specialization in medicine may mean
| cross-over research from different specialities may not
| filter into your desk.
| jmnicolas wrote:
| > It's sort of built into the profession: medical practice
| is inherently little-c conservative. Doctors are trained
| throughly to practice the precautionary principle because
| it's easier to cause more harm. Often with good reason
| imagine you're a surgeon and a new procedure comes out
| that's 92% effective
|
| I wish they remembered that for COVID vaccines, because
| apparently it's the exception.
| magnusmundus wrote:
| A failed surgery is different to an ineffective
| vaccination.
|
| Surgeries also aren't commonly deployed against
| epidemics.
| newsclues wrote:
| It's a matter of failure to modernize curriculum during
| education, and the difficulty of staying on top of new
| research.
|
| The lag in education needs to be fixed ASAP.
| mancerayder wrote:
| I feel like medicine teaches you the facts - the hip bone is
| connected to the, leg bone - but in terms of 'troubleshooting
| skills', there is something deeply missing.
| newsclues wrote:
| It seems like it favours memorizing things and certain
| patterns.
|
| Humans aren't great when dealing with complex systems like
| human bodies.
|
| AI assistants for doctors (who learn to troubleshoot) can't
| come soon enough.
| Zancarius wrote:
| > It seems like it favours memorizing things and certain
| patterns.
|
| I think this is broadly true. Probably not for all of
| medicine but generally speaking it is.
|
| I recently started having a relapse of debilitating
| cluster headaches for a couple of weeks for the first
| time in about a half a decade (maybe longer). I tried
| avoiding all the typical triggers: Caffeine, chocolate,
| dust, smoke (difficult in winter when the neighbors love
| their fires), etc. Nothing worked.
|
| Then I remembered: Ah hah! Sinus infections. I'd
| forgotten that the underlying trigger for me almost 90%
| of the time is a sinus infection I didn't notice that got
| out of hand. About halfway through a course of
| antibiotics the headaches have largely subsided.
|
| Problem is that my sinus infections never seem to
| manifest typically, probably due to anatomical
| abnormalities. This typically means that a week or longer
| of back-and-forth "we don't see anything wrong" with the
| doctor worsens the problem until the pressure and pain
| builds up to a point that touching anywhere near the
| sinuses is very unpleasant. The best preventative measure
| I have, and probably the reason I avoided them for so
| long, is to do regular sinus irrigation. I lapsed about 6
| months ago and stopped doing it--whoops.
|
| Most practitioners are fine if you fit the majority of
| cases and the literature. If you deviate outside that,
| it's much more difficult to diagnose for the reasons you
| highlighted regarding complex systems. Humans just suck
| at it.
|
| I don't have much advice other than to learn and know
| your own body. You probably know it better than any
| doctor. But you also need to become your own advocate if
| you think something isn't quite right and you need some
| help!
| sleepydog wrote:
| Well, with humans it's a lot harder and ethically
| challenging to take them apart, insert a few print
| statements, and put them back together again :)
| Taylor_OD wrote:
| Changing my diet (cutting bread and booze) helped my terrible
| back and neck more than several years of PT and doctors did.
| dfsegoat wrote:
| > _"I have usage of computers that far exceeds 90% of the
| population (12+ hours a day)."_
|
| Pre-pandemic, I trained Brazilian jiu-jitsu 5-6x per week -
| where people are trying to crank on my neck constantly. Your
| neck gets incredibly thick and strong as a result.
|
| Even with that, I can say that NOTHING sets off my neck pain
| like 10+ hours at my computer.
| mancerayder wrote:
| Would you say a stronger neck reduces problems from the PC
| all day long?
| dilyevsky wrote:
| Same with climbing/deadlifting. Six months into pandemic with
| all the gyms closed i started getting sore neck and
| accompanied migraines like twice a week... grrreat
| mordymoop wrote:
| Holding still for long periods is almost the worst thing for
| muscles. Basically your putting strain on the same set of
| muscles without actually granting them the sort of natural
| movement that keeps blood and stuff circulating properly.
| [deleted]
| balfirevic wrote:
| > I've been doing weightlifting (not bodybuilding which you
| should not do if you value your body long-term! Strength
| Training and a bit of Olympic Weightligting)
|
| Much of what bodybuilders do _is_ strength training, especially
| at the non-professional levels.
|
| At amateur levels, effective strength training and effective
| body building are going to be pretty similar.
| mancerayder wrote:
| Yes and No. At least there are two big differentiators.
|
| Olympic Weightlifting is generally understood to refer to the
| movements of clean+jerk, snatch, and associated movements
| like deadlifting and squatting which are components of the
| complex lifts.
|
| Strength Training very broadly just means a rep range that
| makes you stronger, not bigger. But commonly one thinks of
| powerlifting movements: bench press, squats, deadlifts.
|
| Notice in none of the above did we talk about bicep curls,
| pulley exercises, leg curls, or any concentration exercises.
| We didn't even talk about leg press, because in the above two
| we only use barbells.
|
| So the two big differentiators are:
|
| 1. rep range is high with bodybuilding because bodybuilding
| cares about volume
|
| 2. This is the big one. The exercise range for bodybuilding
| includes many (perhaps mostly) single or few joint exercises.
|
| So when you say that at the amateur level it doesn't matter,
| that's only true in that any amateur will get stronger.
| That's true. But the similarity ends right there.
|
| I speak from experience when I say, starting off as an
| amateur by copying what bodybuilders are doing (bicep curls
| and other mirror exercises, high rep ranges and doing many
| single joint movements instead of functional movements) is a
| recipe for bad habits and movement patterns that you need to
| spend years to re-learn later. Not to mention machines are
| garbage and cause injury since they make you do unnatural
| things (unless you really know what you are doing, which
| amateurs do not).
| netizen-9748 wrote:
| If you're copying what the advanced (10+ years training) as
| a newcomer, that was your first mistake. Their training is
| specifically designed for someone who has the neural
| adaptation and muscle mass of a person with many years
| under their belt. You don't progress by doing the same
| thing for 10 years, that's antithetical to the ideas of
| adaptation concerning hypertrophy. Look up the lectures by
| Dr. Mike Israetel for good info.
| mancerayder wrote:
| Yeah, I know that copying what a 10 year bodybuilder is
| doing is no good and not the fault of bodybuilding as a
| sport. But I'm making an even bolder statement: that
| using concentration exercises like bicep curls, leg curls
| and (especially) 3-4 different angles of shoulder and
| chest work, espcially with machines and high reps, will
| very much increase your chances of injury.
|
| I'm telling you that whenever I walk into a commercial
| gym or my building gym (i.e. not a powerlifting or oly
| gym) I see easily 90% of the people doing stuff I know is
| in bad form at worst, and at best will give them the most
| mild of training regimens. I blame the culture of
| bodybuilding (in the U.S. at least. I read that in
| Eastern Europe there is a very different attitude and
| training culture starting from school).
|
| I argue that barbell training -- functional training more
| broadly, which includes calisthenics if you want -- is
| vastly safer and superior to bodybuilding and indeed yes,
| it does require a bit of personal training and
| instruction in the beginning.
| balfirevic wrote:
| > Strength Training very broadly just means a rep range
| that makes you stronger, not bigger.
|
| There is no such thing (edit: well, except maybe 1-2 reps,
| because it's hard to get much volume with those. But
| beginners shouldn't be doing those anyway). You get
| stronger in the rep range you practice. People often (in
| gym circles) mean "1-rep strength" when they say
| "strength", but such a narrow definition only makes sense
| if you are competing in powerlifting.
|
| As a beginner you want the rep range that maximizes
| gains/risk and also gains/unpleasantness ratio, which will
| usually be 5-10.
|
| > rep range is high with bodybuilding because bodybuilding
| cares about volume
|
| People who train for strength also care about volume
| because volume is a great way to get stronger. And also
| great way to get bigger. Which makes sense, because getting
| bigger is a great way to get stronger.
|
| > starting off as an amateur by copying what bodybuilders
| are doing
|
| I think this is where the most of the confusion comes from.
| It is bad to start amateurs on stuff that professional body
| builders do, but it would also be bad to start them on
| stuff professional powerlifters do (low bar one-rep max
| squats or speed deadlifts).
|
| On the other hand, as an amateur, whether your goal is
| strength or better physique - the best approach is going to
| be very similar.
|
| > Not to mention machines are garbage and cause injury
| since they make you do unnatural things (unless you really
| know what you are doing, which amateurs do not).
|
| Some types of machines are absolutely fine (cable
| machines), other types are also mostly fine - they get a
| bad reputation from few of the worst offenders such as leg
| press and leg extension machine.
| netizen-9748 wrote:
| Just to add to this comment, strength increased with
| cross-sectional muscle area. Neural adaptation is not
| entirely separate, but yes the stimuli for increasing
| each can be generally separated into the low or high rep
| schemes. For those doing any sort of strength training,
| as long as you progress in weight for the first 3-4 years
| gaining muscle mass is unavoidable and not a bad thing at
| all. Hypertrophy is a well studied area of sport science
| and as long as you maintain a healthy diet, building
| muscle is not a negative thing in the least. It even
| helps with longevity by counteracting the muscle loss
| associated with aging.
| mancerayder wrote:
| Hold on. I know what you're trying to say, reps at 5-10
| will give you strength benefits. But there's a nuance
| you're missing that's quite relevant to the discussion.
| There are different metabolic options for the muscle,
| since different muscle cell types behave differently and
| metabolize differently. There is power, strength and
| endurance, broadly speaking, with a lot of overlap of
| course depending on your movement speed, resistance and
| volume. Which is why that at above around the 5-10 range
| you mentioned, you begin to touch into the
| endurance/hypertrophy area.
|
| Your comment about 1-2 reps not being good for beginners
| is questionable, though. It depends what you're training
| for. 1-2 reps is good or bad, but it all depends on what
| percentage of your max output you're attempting. a 1-2
| rep range at something like an 85-90% of 1 RM isn't
| particularly offensive or dangerous, but it might not be
| optimal programming-wise if that is All you do. But it'll
| give you more strength increase faster than doing 8 reps.
|
| Your "there is no such thing" comment is wrong, though. I
| have in front of me Practical Programming for Strength
| Training by Mark Rippetoe, and there is a whole chapter
| that discusses the three muscle fiber types, twelve
| characteristics, and their relation to rep ranges. There
| is a continuum of strength v. hypertrophy, and the rep-
| range of 5 and below being optimally useful for strength
| training. Sure, any rep range really where you're not
| doing cardio will lead to both strength and hypertrophy,
| Especially for an amateur, but there is a rapid fall-off
| at either end of the scale (low rep = more strength
| increase / higher rep = endurance + muscle hypertrophy).
|
| In short: it's nuanced and I think your 5-10 number is
| again, a sort of "bodybuilding mentality" seeping into
| popular discourse, instead of a "good rule of thumb."
| [deleted]
| balfirevic wrote:
| > 1-2 rep range at something like an 85-90% of 1 RM [...]
| will give you more strength increase faster than doing 8
| reps.
|
| It will give you more strength if you measure how much
| you can lift in a 1-rep set. It will give you less
| strength if you measure how much you can lift in an 8-rep
| set.
|
| The key false dichotomy here is strength vs. hypertrophy.
| They are not in opposition, bigger muscle is a stronger
| muscle. To be as strong as you can, you need to do two
| things:
|
| 1) Get the biggest muscles you can.
|
| 2) Get practice in the rep range you are interested in
| being tested.
|
| As good as Mark's books are, a lot has been researched
| and discovered since. For rep ranges in particular, this
| is a good article (backed by research):
| https://www.strongerbyscience.com/hypertrophy-range-fact-
| fic...
| mancerayder wrote:
| No, it's not a false dichotomy at all, or the first two
| pages of Google results on the topic are all wrong,
| powerlifting competitors are wrong (they should be doing
| 5x12 instead of 5x3, 5x1, 5x5 and many other rep
| schemes), Starting Strength as well as Practical
| Progamming for Strength Training are wrong and Rippetoe
| is a hack, my trainer (an olympic weightlifting
| competitor) is wrong, Alan Thrall's entire YouTube
| channel is false, and someone can make millions of
| dollars by showing that hypertrophy and strength are
| really one in the same and that there aren't three types
| of muscle fibers. This would have a huge impact in the
| fitness world if you were right. I don't think that's the
| case.
| balfirevic wrote:
| To be clear, neither I nor Greg Nuckols (author of the
| article I linked) claim that muscle fiber types aren't
| real.
|
| In any case, if you or anyone else reading this are
| interested in learning more, here are some additional
| links:
|
| - Size vs. Strength: How Important is Muscle Growth For
| Strength Gains? - https://www.strongerbyscience.com/size-
| vs-strength/
|
| - Training Based On Muscle Fiber Type: Are You Missing
| Out? - https://www.strongerbyscience.com/muscle-fiber-
| type/
|
| - Eddie Hall doing 10-rep sets when training for his 500
| kg deadlift: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKPgu8JMY8k
| (which were explicitly called out as an important part of
| his training here: https://www.joe.co.uk/fitness-
| health/how-eddie-hall-trained-... )
| bproven wrote:
| IMO - just get the Starting Strength book by Mark Rippetoe
| and run with that for a year or two (or possibly forever
| depending on your goals). Quick gym sessions (45 min or
| less), strength focused exercises and IMO for those basic
| barbell movements it is the best.
|
| If after you a bit of time you stall in strength and wish to
| go farther add in more bodybuilding type exercises or switch
| to another program like Wendlers 5/3/1...etc
|
| But really if I had to recommend anything to most people to
| stay strong (esp as you age and live the lives we live
| today), the basic barbell exercises taught in Starting
| Strength are all you really need for a lifetime.
| dahart wrote:
| > Yet. I suffer from neck pain
|
| Have you tried cervical traction?
|
| > Medicine: You Suck! We can send robots to Mars [...]
|
| Seriously! Though maybe to be fair, the design of the spine
| isn't that great. I mean it's amazing. And simultaneously can't
| take the abuse we pile on it. Whoever invents the cure to
| deteriorating joints and deteriorating nerves is going to solve
| half the world's pain and also become very rich.
|
| > Someone below wrote
|
| Just curious - why not reply? Saying 'below' can be awkward
| when comments move around.
| wuwuno wrote:
| I'm sure that if we would 'relax' bioethics standards we could
| make faster progress.
| yrimaxi wrote:
| I'm sorry. It's terrible that people have to suffer from this
| kind of thing and get so little help from the supposed state of
| the art.
| dsego wrote:
| I also have neck issues, esp. when slouching over the laptop.
| Usually there is a point on the back of my neck that starts
| protruding. Then my neck and shoulder muscles get inflamed and
| I get pain, headaches, teary eyes and drowsiness. Usually
| things get better with an ibuprofen to calm the inflammation.
| But sometimes my wife needs to push really hard and massage
| until the protrusion goes back in. I can even feel it sort of
| click back into place and you can feel it skip while rubbing.
| It started years ago but it's sort of moved down closer to
| shoulder, it's not protruding in the same spot as before. One
| other thing I would do is take a rolling pin against the door
| frame to massage the neck or pull on the back of my head upward
| with a towel. Now I also do these neck exercises* and they
| really do help if I do them regularly, I also use a laptop
| stand whenever I can so I don't have to look down and slouch.
|
| *https://imgv2-2-f.scribdassets.com/img/document/236321754/or..
| . (I couldn't find it in english, sorry)
|
| PS A neurologist and an orthopaedist told me that my symptoms
| don't make sense and they couldn't find anything wrong with my
| spine.
| mancerayder wrote:
| Careful! I would get an MRI which can see if you have a disk
| bulge or a bone spur. A protruding point does not sound good,
| but it sounds like something that medicine might possible be
| useful for for once.
| dsego wrote:
| Probably a disk bulge in my opinion, but it hasn't happened
| in a while now.
| wvh wrote:
| You have pushed your body to do something it wasn't designed to
| do, and over time, you broke it. It's very hard to get back.
|
| You could have chosen another profession, but perhaps you'd
| have trouble with your knees then.
|
| I had perfect vision for years, but a few years ago, things
| started to get blurry. Now I have to stop working after some
| hours because I just can't see the screen anymore, which would
| have been unthinkable a few years back. It feels pretty absurd
| having to stop just because you can't physically see anymore
| what you're doing.
|
| I also do strength training and distance running - also to
| fight bad effects from prolonged computer use - which I guess
| keeps me pretty fit and healthy, but again, some part of the
| body might not be so happy and break down due to exercise.
|
| As an adult, one's surprisingly left mostly to one's own
| devices when it comes to long-term holistic health. Most things
| beyond medical or mental emergencies are a lot harder to figure
| out, with a lot of fads, quacks and charlatans along the way.
| namanyayg wrote:
| Might be unconventional, but I've noticed that _breath patterns_
| and correct posture while stretching (i.e. being in a rounded
| neck posture while stretching probably adds to harm...)
|
| For that, I've found this video guide to be one of the best and
| it feels significantly better than others.
| https://yogawithadriene.com/10-minute-yoga-quickie-neck-shou...
|
| I invite any HNer to try it out and _really focus on the mindset
| and breathing patterns_ recommended by the guide. It's excellent,
| especially the part where you put the opposite hand on the ear
| and stretch.
| aaronbrethorst wrote:
| I started a yoga practice just over a year ago after I
| recovered from a terrible, constant series of back spasms
| brought on by working on my laptop on my couch for too long.
|
| I probably did yoga for one hour 2-3 times per week on average
| last year, which helped me avoid a repeat of my back issues.
| It's helped me improve my flexibility, muscle tone, and my
| awareness of my body. What I mean by that last point is that I
| am more immediately aware when I experience back issues, now,
| and I also have a clearer sense of how to move and stretch my
| body to fix those issues before they become worse.
|
| Yoga is great, and really doesn't require any special
| equipment. You can try out a video and get pretty far without
| needing to buy mats, blocks, straps, Lululemon clothes, etc.
| amanaplanacanal wrote:
| Humans have only been sitting in chairs for the last two or three
| thousand years, and I think our bodies would thank us if we got
| rid of them completely. Our natural postures include sitting and
| lying on the ground, and standing, walking, running, and
| squatting. Our natural movements are moving between those natural
| positions.
|
| Chairs are probably hurting our posture in the same way running
| shoes are hurting our feet and knees.
| melling wrote:
| While we certainly need to take care of our bodies, it would be
| helpful if we reinvented computers enough so we aren't hunched
| over our computers all day.
|
| I sit relaxed with a tablet in my lap and use an Apple Pencil
| when possible.
|
| Of course, it's not a great productivity device but at least it's
| a slightly different position.
|
| Voice, cameras or radar for gestures, etc could be used to
| augment computing devices.
|
| 4 hours a day with a keyboard and the rest standing or sitting
| back using a different method of interface would be better.
|
| Soli everywhere?
|
| https://atap.google.com/soli/
| dahart wrote:
| If I could write code and attend meetings while I walk around,
| I'd be out walking and hiking all day. I'm imagining some
| fantasy where I could wear lightweight AR sunglasses and use
| gestures and/or voice control and somehow be able to do
| everything I do with my desktop. I'm not sure it's realistic
| even ten years from now, but I'm also not sure this kind of
| setup is out of reach either. I use standing & treadmill desks
| on and off. They're good for taking care of my body, but take
| effort to use consistently, and have some tradeoffs.
| melling wrote:
| Wolfram has his "walking desks"
|
| https://boingboing.net/2019/03/04/stephen-wolfram-
| explains-h...
|
| I like the one of him walking outside. The problem is he's
| still using a keyboard.
| vinceguidry wrote:
| My problem is that his neck has to crane very far down.
| dec0dedab0de wrote:
| One thing that really helped me with back, and neck pain, and
| then later with all kinds of pain, is the trigger point therapy
| workbook. I forget which edition I have but there are one or two
| newer ones since then. I used to hurt myself and be useless for a
| week or two, since I got the book it's been a day or two. It's
| basically a guide for effective self massage.
|
| Funny side note, I learned about it from a character in a
| fictional book called sex drugs and blueberries, which I randomly
| picked up from the local section of a book store while visiting
| Maine about 10 years ago.
| switch007 wrote:
| I have this one: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Trigger-Point-
| Therapy-Workbook-Self...
|
| ISBN 1608824942
| motyar wrote:
| Can we get videos of these?
| bolangi wrote:
| Usually neck problems are accompanied by stiffness in the upper
| ribs and spin. More flexibility in these structures that support
| the neck will lead to less demands on the neck and more
| comfortable movement overall.
| 01100011 wrote:
| One thing that helped was a standing desk with monitor arms. When
| my neck hurts I change the height of my monitors so the angle of
| my neck changes. It's not a cure, but it helps.
|
| Also, shrugging my shoulders up to my ears periodically helps. PT
| docs tell me it's the wrong thing to do. I think they figure I'm
| strengthening my traps, but really I think the movement just
| helps reset something in my neck. YMMV.
|
| If you're twenty something and don't have physical issues from
| sitting in front of a computer all day, just wait, you will.
| ahmedfromtunis wrote:
| I had sever neck and upper back pain for years. My solution? I
| used cardboard boxes and old books I found laying around at the
| office so that my laptop's screen is at eye level (around 20 cm
| up, which made me realize how bad my posture was).
|
| Coworkers were laughing at me but I didn't care; just few days
| later and the pain all but disappeared. I couldn't be happier.
| therealdrag0 wrote:
| You can get good monitor arms to a Achieve this. Make sure to
| measure though because, as someone who is 6', some have a max
| height lower than what I need. The nice thing about an arm is
| it's easy to adjust when switching between sitting and
| standing.
|
| But I agree I can't believe how far I had to scroll town to see
| someone mention monitor height.
| ahmedfromtunis wrote:
| I wish I could; but here (not USA) such equipment are hard to
| find and, when available they're generally way too expensive
| -- just link standing desks and even good, decent office
| chairs.
|
| Until this is no longer the case, my poor-man's platform will
| live on :,D
| toast0 wrote:
| Reams of paper are also good for raising monitors or laptops,
| and easily found in an office.
|
| Of course, if you use the screen and the keyboard of your
| laptop, you have to balance height of the screen (eye level
| should be about the middle of the screen) vs height of the
| keyboard (arms should be about level)
| mordymoop wrote:
| Doing these gives me a 100% guaranteed 3 day long headache.
| oh_sigh wrote:
| If people are giving out free pain advice in this thread, I have
| a mystery...
|
| I frequently wake up with pain in the left side of my neck, right
| under the base of my skull. When this happens, my right neck
| flexion is fine but my left neck flexion feels like something is
| misaligned and stops far sooner than flexing right. I also feel
| pain at the base of my neck near my SC joint, but a little
| towards the middle of my clavicle.
|
| The weirdest part is that when this happens, i spend all day
| stretching trying to undo the kink, and what fixes it is
| something that happens in my elbow - there's a loud clunk and a
| snap and then my neck feels better, my range of motion returns,
| and I feel like I have better feeling in my left hand.
|
| What gives? It literally feels like a structure(nerve or
| something) gets misaligned and is getting pulled in weird ways
| until at one point it snaps back into place.
| PaulHoule wrote:
| For neck pain take a look at your jaw. About 15% of people have a
| jaw that pops and many of them have pain from it.
|
| When i followed my dentists advice to get a bite guard for
| bruxism, diffuse neck and back pain i had for years was greatly
| reduced, focalized in one muscle, and responsive to ibuprofen. 6
| mo later it feels like the kind of injury that takes a year or so
| to heal. My dentist referred me to an orthodontist who referred
| me to another practitioner until i'd reached a university medical
| center a 2hr drive away and was told the doc would call me back
| in 7 days.
|
| Review articles on pubmed said imaging and other procedures are
| not worth pursuing, maybe 100 papers were reviewed, 90% were
| rejected by Cochraine, the only supported treatment is
| biofeedback -- that is something you can sometimes do w/o
| equipment by feeling the muscle yourself or with your finger.
| Which I am doing this week and right now i feel great. There is
| some chip you can hook up to an arduino that i might try.
|
| This condition is 100% physical, 100% mental, 100% spiritual.
| Stress causing teeth grinding, that damages the jaw, a very small
| lesion can cause big pain and distress, more tooth grinding, ...
| it is depressing and for some people disabling.
| bproven wrote:
| For neck/back pain I highly recommend strength training -
| specifically focused on posterior chain exercises like deadlifts,
| squats (if you do not have any serious preexisting injuries
| preventing you doing them). Even you are unable to do those a
| good solid barbell strenght training program can work wonders.
| Anecdontal for me, but I find whenever I stop training my
| back/neck pain comes back.
|
| Also important to move a few times a day if you are doing the
| kind of sitting work most of us do. I make sure that I take a
| 20-30 min walk before I start working and then at least 1 more
| time mid-day. This also helps a lot IMO
| howardr wrote:
| +1
|
| After doing moderate strength training in these areas along
| with core exercises as part of a cross training class (2x a
| week) my back pain that I've had for over a decade dissapeared.
| polishdude20 wrote:
| Same for me. I have this mindset now that whenever I get back
| pain I need to deadlift / squat it out albeit with a slightly
| lower weight than usual. It seems to go away every time after a
| few sets.
| varrock wrote:
| I'd throw walking lunges in there, to; an excellent posterior
| chain movement that also gets your heart rate going at a
| healthy pace.
| vidarh wrote:
| For squats the one thing people need to keep in mind is it
| requires decent hip and posterior chain flexibility before you
| get to anything more than moderate weights.
|
| Especially office workers often struggle with that. Simple
| test: squat all the way down without a weight without lifting
| your heels and without falling backwards... If you can, your
| mobility is pretty ok. If you can't.. Well, you should fix
| that.
|
| I did the mistake of squatting with poor mobility a while when
| I first started out, and hurt myself before figuring that out.
| Took just a few weeks of stretches to fix. Incidentally the
| same stretches (touching toes or floor, squatting and holding
| the position without a weight - if you can't do it at all start
| by holding on to something in front of you to keep you from
| falling) is great if sitting a lot too.
| yedava wrote:
| I don't think 'mobility' is a factor for squats. If you think
| you have bad mobility, try the low bar squat where the back
| is more horizontal at the bottom of the squat. I have a great
| deal of difficulty squatting with a vertical back, but I find
| squatting with a more horizontal back quite natural and easy.
| jacksonkmarley wrote:
| Same for me, deadlifts and squats (with good form) kept away my
| lower back pain. One caveat, when I first started there was a
| bit of a learning curve on how to get core bracing and posture
| right, and bad form made my back a bit sore.
|
| Unfortunately in the current virus situation the gym is out and
| my place isn't suitable for weight training. I'm starting some
| bodyweight exercises but they don't seem to help my back like
| the weight training did.
| PaulHoule wrote:
| The most efficient kind of exercise to relieve low back pain
| involve bending backwards, such as the Cobra pose in Yoga
|
| https://www.dummies.com/health/exercise/yoga/how-to-do-
| the-c...
|
| See also
|
| https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/treat-your-own-back-
| robin-a...
|
| Cobra and the exercises from that book are easy to do at home
| but I like the bioenergetic arch
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=225tAQzCVhs
|
| because it is standing and you can do it anywhere, just
| please wear better clothes than the guy in that video.
| jacksonkmarley wrote:
| Hmmm, I don't doubt that those exercises may be helpful for
| many people, but I have tried a lot of stretches for my
| back, including those, and have never felt much relief. For
| some reason lifting weights was much more effective for me.
| lottin wrote:
| Yes, the squat if not done correctly can be bad for you back.
| Strangely I've never had a problem doing deadlifts with a
| degree of lumbar flexion, but I keep pinching a nerve in my
| lower back while doing squats.
| j7ake wrote:
| Does doing sit-ups exercise these muscles? I find that my neck
| goes forward when trying to do sit-ups.
| renw0rp wrote:
| I started having problems with my elbow and two (when looking at
| my palm) innermost fingers (pinky and ring fingers). At the
| beginning I thought it's tennis elbow, but then started having
| problems with my neck as well and getting dizzy (vertigo,
| headache and sometimes nausea) when lying down and getting up
| from the bed. I've noticed that that happens most when my head is
| on flat surface and even more when it reclines back (when a
| physiotherapist lowered my head below the flat surface of the bed
| I was ling on). Did anyone experience something like this or has
| any advice?
|
| I did have an ultrasound and EMG (electromyography) done which
| did not show any problems in my elbow.
|
| I do exercise for my neck now and hope that will help... I might
| add some exercises from the OP to my routine.
|
| PS. Funnily my problems (at the beginning it was only elbow and
| fingers) started during lockdown, when I finally started doing
| yoga-type exercises and I felt like I'm getting better at it (I
| think it's just coincidence, not causation though).
| mike_h wrote:
| Elbow plus those two fingers implicates ulnar nerve, which
| passes from your lower neck (C8 and T1 vertebrae), through your
| clavicle and behind your elbow, into pinky and ring finger. If
| it gets entrapped by tight tissue anywhere on the way down
| (look up "thoracic outlet syndrome" for example), it can cause
| issues below, e.g. in elbow and those two fingers. For the neck
| and dizziness I forget how things work, e.g. if it means the
| the problem is rooted in your neck / spine area or if the neck
| symptoms could also be rooted lower further along the nerve. It
| could all be due to mobility problems along the same nerve, or
| if you've been hunching at a computer for a while, there could
| be additional issues in the neck with other nerves or
| circulation.
|
| This is the kind of thing physical therapists and chiropractors
| work on, but at least when I went through it a decade ago, it
| was really hard to find one who could troubleshoot the problem
| and reason about the body vs. going by a lookup table of
| symptoms and approved treatments.
|
| The things that helped me were tissue-loosening massage in the
| neck, shoulder, and upper rib area. It finally went away one
| day when the therapist loosened my top rib enough to stop
| impinging on the nerve. Just to give you an example of how
| counterintuitive it can be.
|
| As a general cheat sheet, be thinking about places nerves could
| get impinged from vertebrae through wrist. Tight muscles,
| tissue locking you into certain postures, vertebral
| misalignment.
|
| I bet there's more info on reddit and places like that now, but
| one book that used to be good for modeling the whole system was
| called "It's not carpal tunnel syndrome". Also look up trigger
| point therapy. During pandemic you may be more on your own so
| be aware of self-massage tools like Theracane. Posture work may
| also help, and walking / general cardio fitness.
| jacksonkmarley wrote:
| Curious about this, what was the issue with your fingers? Pain
| or numbness?
| renw0rp wrote:
| feeling weaker grip and sensations leading sometimes to
| clumsiness. I would describe it as slight numbness (in the
| sense of weaker sensations and a weird, kind of tingly
| feeling in the fingers). It was becoming a proper numbness
| when using phone/tablet for prolonged periods, but now I try
| to avoid doing that.
|
| I have similar tingly sensation in my elbow, and in the worst
| time I actually woke up at night with pain in the elbow.
|
| It's sometimes better, sometimes worse, and I'm trying what
| else (other than giving up my job and using computer) can I
| do to help relieve this issues. COVID pandemic is not helping
| either getting proper medical attention.
| jacksonkmarley wrote:
| If by "using phone/tablet" you mean the hand holding it up
| is getting these symptoms I actually also get this and my
| guess is that it is a general circulation problem (I am not
| a doctor!).
|
| FWIW I didn't find an exercise solution, but actually some
| common spices that apparently promote circulation did help
| me (not medical advice!): ginger, garlic, cayenne pepper.
| benibela wrote:
| I get something like that as well
|
| I just sit there normally and my arms start tingling. Or
| the leg falls asleep. It has been getting worse since I
| am 30
|
| Not so good to sit 14h/day at the PC
| PaulHoule wrote:
| Check your blood sugar
| renw0rp wrote:
| I actually had some fasting glucose tests done recently
| (different labs)
|
| 20.10.2020: 92 mg/dl 23.10.2020: 91.5 mg/dl
|
| Both labs give around 70-100 as a normal range.
|
| Would you suggest something more?
|
| I had glucose tolerance test done around 2 years ago
| (glucose&insuline tested before/after consuming 75g of
| glucose; sample taken at 0h, 1h, 2h). Looks like I have
| "insuline resistance" which prompted me to eat more
| vegetables and lose some weight, but I need to admit that
| it's hard for me to give up on fruits and sweets.
| Abishek_Muthian wrote:
| I had C1-C3 fusion[1], So the freedom of movement in my neck is
| severely limited. This aggravates neck/back pain when sitting
| before computer for > 30 mins. Obviously none of exercise
| mentioned in the article or most other neck exercises work for
| me.
|
| So I've built myself 'Butt Pomodoro'[2] which gets triggered when
| I sit, reminds me to move after 25 mins, to come back after 5
| mins and a larger break of 30 mins after 4 such sessions.
|
| I got motivated to build this after a user in problem validation
| platform wanted a solution to remind them to take break from work
| without any user action and it ended up solving my problem too.
|
| [1]https://abishekmuthian.com/i-was-told-i-would-become-
| quadrip...
|
| [2]https://abishekmuthian.com/butt-pomodoro-a-butt-triggered-
| po...
| mactavish88 wrote:
| These exercises are definitely not for everyone. I've been
| suffering with disequilibrium/vertigo for nearly a year now (no
| headaches, just a weird bobbing/floating/falling sensation that
| comes and goes). After brain/C-spine MRIs (all "normal"),
| countless blood tests, carotid ultrasound and vestibular testing,
| the only thing that's apparently wrong with me is that I have a
| "vestibular dysfunction". It's come and gone, which is apparently
| strange, and my family doctor still thinks I have "cervicogenic
| vertigo". After $2000 spent on physiotherapy, acupuncture and
| vestibular physiotherapy in 2020 I'm no better off.
|
| Some of the exercises recommended in this article were
| recommended to me too, and they made my disequilibrium
| significantly worse and gave me headaches.
|
| Then I found this article: https://mskneurology.com/vestibular-
| impairment-and-its-assoc...
|
| Organized a consultation with with the guy who wrote the article
| and he took another look at my MRI. Turns out the radiologists
| totally missed several things that could clearly be causing my
| symptoms:
|
| - I've got forward head posture and the top of my neck's
| straightened. Possibly from previous whiplash injuries several
| years ago combined with many years' computer use.
|
| - My C1 vertebra seems to be compressing one of my internal
| jugular veins (one of the primary outflow veins from my brain).
| Radiologists are trained to ignore this sign apparently because
| it's so common, but this clearly affects the blood flow dynamics
| in your head and can apparently trigger migraines and other
| problems. With my C1 just 4mm too far forward, it almost totally
| closes off that vein.
|
| - The increased blood pressure in my head from the decreased
| outflow of blood clearly shows one of the signs of increased
| cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) pressure: an "empty sella sign" (my
| pituitary gland is squashed against the bone because of the
| increased pressure). Apparently increased blood pressure in the
| head causes increased CSF pressure, because they're related to
| each other. No mention of this sign in my radiology report.
|
| - This increased blood pressure might be interfering with blood
| drainage from my vestibular apparatus, which could be the cause
| of my weird vestibular problem.
|
| Of course, the MRI was taken while I was lying down, and other
| tests I had imply that my CSF pressure is normal while upright,
| but I lie down for 6-8 hours a night. How much damage is that
| increased CSF pressure doing while I sleep? I'm not sure, but I
| definitely tend to feel like shit most mornings, even though I
| sleep on average 7.5 hours a night.
|
| What I've learned from this experience so far:
|
| 1. If these exercises cause you headaches, don't do them, you
| might actually be doing them incorrectly or you. may have
| structural issues that cause these exercises to hurt yourself.
| Like me, you may need exercises tailored to your specific
| problems, so consulting with someone who knows what they're doing
| is super important.
|
| 2. If you're symptomatic and your radiologist says your MRIs are
| "normal", try get a second opinion.
|
| 3. I really wish more physiotherapists were trained in
| interpreting MRIs and doppler ultrasounds, especially to pick up
| on more subtle issues.
| cnasc wrote:
| Related, as a full-time keyboard jockey I have to make sure to
| take good care of my moneymakers. I've found this video of novel
| wrist and hand movements absolutely invaluable:
| https://youtube.com/watch?v=-hlWgH3_0NU
| janmo wrote:
| I neglected my sitting position for years, now I pay the price
| for it. Every time I turn my head it makes unpleasant cracking
| noises (luckily no pain), I went to the doctor who was not able
| help me further. Those exercise allow me to have some relief and
| to lessen the noise, but it's still there.
|
| Anyone in the same situation here?
| qznc wrote:
| I was fine until Corona home office. Apparently I'm now too old
| to ignore these topics. Thanks to some inspiration from
| https://old.reddit.com/r/flexibility/ I'm ok again but not yet
| as good as a year ago.
| freedomben wrote:
| I am. Had the cracking noises for years now, sometimes with
| pain, but mostly it's just a discomfort that won't go away.
|
| I do neck rolls to help sometimes but too much will cause
| inflammation so I'm conservative with them. Turning my head
| side to side regularly also seems to help with the discomfort.
|
| I'm guessing my neck will continue to sound like breaking bones
| for the rest of my life though.
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