[HN Gopher] Brexit stops Brooks England sales of 'Made in Britai...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Brexit stops Brooks England sales of 'Made in Britain' saddles to
       UK shoppers
        
       Author : DanBC
       Score  : 85 points
       Date   : 2021-01-04 14:02 UTC (8 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (road.cc)
 (TXT) w3m dump (road.cc)
        
       | bserge wrote:
       | Does anyone know, do I have to pay customs duty or VAT on orders
       | from Amazon.co.uk shipped to EU?
       | 
       | Last time I bought some SSDs (pre-Brexit) on Amazon.co.uk, they
       | were shipped from France.
       | 
       | How is Amazon handling it now? Extra tax on Amazon.co.uk and no
       | tax on Amazon.de/fr/etc?
       | 
       | Thanks!
        
         | teh_klev wrote:
         | This might help:
         | 
         | https://tamebay.com/2020/07/amazon-fba-brexit-bombshell-efn-...
        
         | Hamuko wrote:
         | You should be paying VAT if you order from the UK to the EU.
         | 
         | I just tried out checking out an item on Amazon.co.uk with
         | Finland as the destination. On the checkout page I have four
         | different charges: items, postage & packaging, import fees
         | deposit, and exchange rate guarantee fee.
         | 
         | So looks like Amazon is removing the VAT from the item (it was
         | PS39.99 on the item page and it drops to PS33.32 on the
         | checkout page) and then charging your local VAT as an up-front
         | deposit. So if it's anything like my Amazon.co.jp orders, you
         | just throw money at Amazon and you get the item in your hands
         | without any customs hassle.
        
       | phjesusthatguy3 wrote:
       | If we're going to edit the title, can we at least change it to
       | the more honest "EU company temporarily suspends exports to UK
       | after Brexit"?
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | 908B64B197 wrote:
       | For a place that already has sky high income tax, I wonder why
       | place such an additional burden on businesses with complicated
       | and punitive taxes like these?
        
         | mkl wrote:
         | You may be misinformed:
         | https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=TABLE_I6
        
           | 908B64B197 wrote:
           | I realize I was mistaken.
           | 
           | Still, it feels Europe has, in general, huge tariffs, VAT and
           | sales tax for any items, often doubling the price for
           | seemingly no good reasons.
        
       | 2Gkashmiri wrote:
       | How I would suggest they do it. Costing wise VAT is already
       | included so pricing provably wont change unless tax rates are
       | same/similar. Then, set up a Britain operations which would mean
       | as the article said, registered with local tax office.
       | 
       | The next part would be, to "sell" goods to that British
       | subsidiary tax account which would then sell to local customers.
       | 
       | That or do how things work with aliepxress and assume you are
       | aliexpress and your customers want to buy from you. You just add
       | VAT as import duty at time of sale and that should do it.
        
         | pmontra wrote:
         | Not every business is large enough to sustain the overhead of a
         | subsidiary in the UK or in any other country. Probably there is
         | an opportunity window for middleman services that collect
         | orders and sell to UK customers, an Alibaba from the EU to the
         | UK.
        
           | rsynnott wrote:
           | > Probably there is an opportunity window for middleman
           | services that collect orders and sell to UK customers
           | 
           | There absolutely is, and such services are already showing
           | up. "Let's fund our middlemen instead" wasn't a great slogan
           | for a bus, of course, but this was always inevitable.
        
             | nottorp wrote:
             | I suppose someone up there thinks they're stimulating the
             | British economy this way, with opportunities for local
             | middle men to handle the UK VAT.
             | 
             | However, those middle men will be paid by ... the average
             | UK consumer.
             | 
             | I don't see how that's a plus for the UK economy. Or maybe
             | it inflates GDP while decreasing purchasing power...
        
               | rsynnott wrote:
               | Well, realistically, one of the biggest ones will
               | probably be Amazon, so, Foreign Middlemen.
        
           | toast0 wrote:
           | For Brooks, they clearly have a UK subsidiary already,
           | because they own and operate a manufacturing facility. It's
           | probably just a bit of time to digest the trade agreement and
           | figure out what the best thing is going forward, shich I
           | would guess is probably finding a way to ship UK destined
           | saddles within the UK to avoid customs.
           | 
           | For some of the other bicycle companies mentioned, it seems
           | they don't have UK operations, so they may not want to have
           | formal relations with the UK government. They'll need time to
           | figure it out too, but probably worst case is they'll end
           | direct mail order sales to the UK, and you'd have to buy
           | through a retailer. But, again after some time to understand
           | the new rules.
        
       | groundthrower wrote:
       | Brooks has been my saddle on my bicycle trips across the world.
       | It's now sort of a fingerprint of my butt.
        
         | analog31 wrote:
         | I believe that Brooks may be the oldest bike-related brand in
         | continuous use.
        
       | davidw wrote:
       | As a former resident of Italy, I'm a bit stumped by "logistics
       | center in Italy". Italy's a great place for many things - I could
       | talk about it at length - but shipping and logistics is not one
       | that comes immediately to mind.
        
         | busterarm wrote:
         | Italy has been mass-importing cheap manufacturing labor from
         | China and it has most-affected textiles businesses.
        
           | Mediterraneo10 wrote:
           | Not Brooks saddles, though. They are still made in the UK.
           | However, cheaper immigrant labor has been used, albeit not
           | Chinese. Brooks' own newsletter reveals that at least some
           | current workers in this British firm with a hundred-year-old
           | tradition are recently-arrived Poles.
           | 
           | One place where Brooks has really diminished its fine
           | reputation is handlebar tape: Brooks leather handlebar tape
           | is made in a Chinese factory with just the Brooks logo
           | stamped on it, and it is nowhere near the quality of the
           | famed saddles.
        
             | busterarm wrote:
             | That's not what I said.
             | 
             | We're talking about why Brooks' logistics might be handled
             | in Italy. Which they are.
             | 
             | Why do you think it might be cheaper to have their full
             | inventory sent to a company in Italy and then have
             | logistics handled there?
        
               | walshemj wrote:
               | Italy is a center for leather working
        
               | busterarm wrote:
               | Except the "working" part of it was already done in the
               | UK here. It's literally stated in the first part of the
               | article.
               | 
               | And again, Italy has mass-imported Chinese immigrants to
               | perform its textiles (and other industries') labor. Just
               | because Italy is the "center for X" doesn't mean Italians
               | are the ones doing X.
        
               | Hamuko wrote:
               | I imagine it's cheaper if you do most of your sales in
               | continental Europe and just sell some units in the UK.
               | Would make more sense to just have one logistics center
               | even if it results in some items being shipped back and
               | forth.
        
               | rjsw wrote:
               | If you want something shipped anywhere you don't start
               | from Italy.
        
               | busterarm wrote:
               | There's a lot of mental gymnastics people will do to not
               | admit the only reason why anyone ever outsources
               | anything: the labor is cheaper.
               | 
               | Postage & Logistics are already robust industries in the
               | UK.
        
               | busterarm wrote:
               | There's no why in what you said, just stating the same
               | premise that I did.
               | 
               | Selle Italia happens to be located in northern Italy,
               | where most of this immigration is concentrated. Granted
               | it's in Veneto and the highest concentration is in
               | Lombardia/Lombardy...but that region has half as many and
               | they're right next to each other.
        
         | mikey_p wrote:
         | Probably because their parent company is in Italy.
         | 
         | > Owned since 2002 by Italian bicycle saddles firm Selle Royale
        
         | abc03 wrote:
         | I thought so as well until I got shipped a product I ordered
         | from the Apple store from Italy. Then I remembered I got an
         | English book I ordered from Amazon.de shipped from Italy.
        
         | rob74 wrote:
         | Well, if you are a huge Italian bicycle saddle maker, and you
         | buy a small boutique British bicycle saddle maker, and you
         | decide to centralise your logistics, where are you going to do
         | it?
        
           | petre wrote:
           | Move EU production to Italy, keep a smaller boutique shop for
           | the UK market.
        
       | cultus wrote:
       | I'll just drop in here to say that as a massive cycling
       | enthusiast and former racer,
       | 
       | BUY A BROOKS SADDLE!
       | 
       | They are the best bike saddle I've ever ridden. I don't get sore
       | or chafe even on 5+ hour rids Sure, they weigh 2 lbs instead of
       | 10 ounces, but that just doesn't matter for 99.8% of cyclists.
       | Since it is leather, the saddle breaks in to your particular
       | nether regions just like a boot or baseball gloves.
        
         | creaturemachine wrote:
         | My Brooks was the first to ever give me saddle sores, and
         | that's after having used some pretty serious ass hatchets in
         | the past. It's definitely a quality product and it's better
         | now, but break-in is a bitch.
        
           | petre wrote:
           | Get a Brooks Cambium then.
        
           | Mediterraneo10 wrote:
           | Were you wearing padded cycling shorts? Those are said to
           | actually prevent the saddle from molding itself comfortably
           | to your sit bones.
           | 
           | Me, I spend half of every year cycle-touring the world,
           | wearing ordinary cotton underwear and Fjallraven expedition
           | trousers on the bike. My Brooks broke in after 500 km without
           | sores and only a modicum of discomfort, and after that it has
           | been like I'm sitting on air as I ride.
        
         | rjsw wrote:
         | Mine is 40 years old, it is just on an exercise bike right now
         | but I wouldn't change it.
        
         | JoeAltmaier wrote:
         | They are great. I rode one for a decade. Comfortable, classy.
         | 
         | But to tell the truth, the only seat that breaks in is the one
         | that's attached to you.
        
       | hirundo wrote:
       | "The company said that it had taken the decision due to the UK
       | government telling overseas firms that they must apply and
       | collect British taxes when selling to customers here, with the
       | point at which VAT is collected, for example, moved from the
       | point of importation to the point of sale."
       | 
       | It would be difficult for London policy makers to come up with
       | trade rules that are as damaging and onerous as the ones from
       | Brussels. But I have every confidence that they are up to the
       | task.
        
         | polar wrote:
         | The EU intends to introduce a similar system later this year.
         | 
         | https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/vat/modernisi...
        
           | Shoue wrote:
           | Also as I understand it, Norway already has as of April 2020
           | (VOEC), so not just EU.
        
           | threeseed wrote:
           | Australia has had this system in place for over a year now.
           | 
           | https://www.ato.gov.au/business/international-tax-for-
           | busine...
        
         | threeseed wrote:
         | > come up with trade rules that are as damaging and onerous as
         | the ones from Brussels
         | 
         | Simply not true.
         | 
         | EU has made trading free and effortless between the 27 member
         | states for the first time in history. And for companies
         | shipping to the EU it is only a one time regulatory hit and
         | then you benefit from a single, coherent market.
         | 
         | Also the world needs a trading bloc that actually believes in
         | climate change, worker rights, consumer rights, privacy etc.
        
           | mrslave wrote:
           | Shame it didn't just stay a trading bloc. This expansion of
           | power is really unpopular and enabled Brexit in the first
           | place.
           | 
           | It's also probably a proxy for immigration, mostly of the
           | illegal variety, but also legal within the Schengen area.
           | People don't take too kindly to having a supernational body
           | tell them who is allowed to enter their country, stay for
           | long periods of time, and their very loose definition of
           | refugee. I know that some nations are politically very much
           | in alignment with the EU's immigration push (Germany is
           | obvious) but clearly the UK isn't. The EU should not have
           | touched this issue.
           | 
           | The single area interest rate also creates a lot of economic
           | tension that perhaps the average joe can't articulate, but he
           | certainly is affected by it.
        
           | intricatedetail wrote:
           | This is one big surveillance super state. Companies e.g. have
           | to submit all their invoices, bank accounts to gov in real
           | time. Some member states even require separate bank accounts
           | to store VAT. Bureaucracy is just gargantuan. If you think it
           | is easy then likely you are doing something wrong.
        
       | noncoml wrote:
       | Brexit is the best modern argument against Democracy. It's
       | literally the beloved British saying of cutting off the nose to
       | spite the face.
       | 
       | Edit: I mean _if_ someone was arguing against Democracy, this
       | would be one of their best arguments to support their position.
       | 
       |  _I_ am _not_ arguing against Democracy. I hope I don't get
       | misunderstood.
        
         | busterarm wrote:
         | Brexit is equally an argument against giving up your national
         | sovereignty to a coalition government.
         | 
         | Regardless of opinions, this plays out like a bad marriage and
         | divorce. Joining the EU requires good will to get in, but
         | there's no amicable way to leave. Why would anyone join now
         | seeing these circumstances?
         | 
         | Once you're in, you're in for life. Ride or die. Might as well
         | join a gang.
        
           | threeseed wrote:
           | > Why would anyone join now seeing these circumstances?
           | 
           | Because the world is moving to being dominated by the big 3
           | trading blocs: US, EU and China. All in an environment where
           | the WTO is diminished and bilateral relationships become the
           | norm.
           | 
           | If you are outside one of these blocs increasingly you will
           | become weaker and more irrelevant for trade and services. And
           | far less able to defend your interests.
        
             | busterarm wrote:
             | If the trading bloc doesn't serve your interests either
             | though...
             | 
             | Again, when the trading interests of a country are pitted
             | against its other national interests, conflict is most
             | often what comes next.
        
           | twblalock wrote:
           | Except, the UK was allowed to leave, and the deal they got is
           | probably not that different from the kind of trade deal they
           | would have had with the EU if they had never joined.
           | 
           | The UK didn't revert to WTO rules in their trade with the EU.
           | Instead, they got a deal that gave them fewer trade barriers
           | with the EU than most countries have to deal with.
        
             | mnd999 wrote:
             | It's a good deal, but only for the EU. They have a goods
             | trade surplus with the UK and they retain their free trade
             | agreement. The UK has a services trade surplus with the EU
             | (particularly financial services) and that is not included
             | in the deal. It's not all that surprising that the UK lost
             | out in the negotiations - this is what tends to happen when
             | a smaller economy negotiates with a larger one.
        
               | busterarm wrote:
               | Don't forget that trade imbalance is the root cause for
               | nearly 100% of the world's military conflicts.
        
             | busterarm wrote:
             | I actually agree with you, but then Brexit isn't such a big
             | deal then, isn't it.
             | 
             | The complainers are trying to get all the upside with none
             | of the down.
        
               | JoeAltmaier wrote:
               | Well that would be called the ideal arrangement. Its
               | business, not a moral issue. Everybody wants what works
               | for them.
        
         | st1x7 wrote:
         | No, it's more complicated than that. It's an argument against
         | putting your long-term foreign policy up to a simple majority
         | vote on only one occasion and in a way that one of the outcomes
         | hasn't been clearly defined which allows for anyone to claim
         | anything they want about the potential benefits.
        
         | roamerz wrote:
         | Right or wrong how can one argue against Democracy (the will of
         | the people)? It's a basic tenant to freedom.
        
           | macintux wrote:
           | It's rarely a good idea for everyone's freedom to blindly
           | follow the will of the majority.
           | 
           | Too often minorities are suppressed.
           | 
           | Plus, voters are terrible at understanding the long-term
           | implications of what they think they want.
        
             | roamerz wrote:
             | The last sentence sounds like many politicians in my state
             | if Oregon. Voters are to dumb to be able to vote. Point in
             | case the voters of Oregon have multiple times voted
             | (overwhelmingly) to not issue driver's licenses to illegal
             | aliens. The legislature this year voted to give illegal
             | aliens driver's licenses. Is this not a prime example of
             | tyranny?
        
               | macintux wrote:
               | It's a prime example of a republic instead of a true
               | democracy.
               | 
               | Tyranny would be if you couldn't vote them out of office.
        
               | roamerz wrote:
               | I do agree with that however if you truly represent the
               | citizens why would you vote for something that is
               | demonstrably contrary to their will? Granted they
               | probably are counting on that by election time this
               | particular vote may be forgotten or outweighed by other
               | factors. Probably more disingenuous than tyrannical but
               | still..
        
               | macintux wrote:
               | This question has been discussed for hundreds of years.
               | 
               | "Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but
               | his judgment; and he betrays instead of serving you if he
               | sacrifices it to your opinion."--Edmund Burke
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | johnp314 wrote:
           | History is replete with pure democracy leading to tyranny.
           | Beyond just Brexit, it's not out of the realm of possibility
           | that the 'majority' could vote to nullify constitutional
           | checks to the power of a president, to term length, to
           | guarantees on the protection of individual rights and
           | freedoms, etc. Of course any such votes are deemed to be in
           | the interest of the 'people'. The ancients and the US at its
           | founding were wise enough to mix democracy, the at the moment
           | will of the people, with various checks, balances and
           | buffers. The US seems to be moving to more and more pure
           | democracy. In my humble opinion this is dangerous, a slippery
           | slope, a camel's nose under the tent, etc.
        
             | roamerz wrote:
             | The founders were indeed wise in requiring 2/3 to amend the
             | constitution as well as establishing the electoral college
             | in lieu of popular vote. What they failed at in my opinion
             | is not having any criminal penalties for anyone including
             | politicians and judges for violating the constitution.
        
               | thatguy0900 wrote:
               | I would think that would have just encouraged the
               | "creative" interpretations of the constitution in use now
               | to justify themselves
        
               | ascagnel_ wrote:
               | I disagree on the Electoral College -- it's a system
               | designed so that votes aren't equal in value. If you live
               | in California, your presidential vote is worth less than
               | a vote in Wyoming[0]. Similarly, the cap on the size of
               | the House of Representatives also means that larger
               | states will generally see less representation per capita
               | than smaller states. (Note: I'm leaving the Senate out,
               | given that it's designed to assign two votes per state
               | without regard to population).
               | 
               | A referendum is great at giving legislators or executives
               | a priority -- my home state of New Jersey has been
               | working on marijuana legalization for years, but it's
               | largely stalled in the statehouse. The 2020 election
               | featured a ballot question on legalization, and the
               | overwhelming "yes" (more than 2/3 of the electorate
               | supports the move) helped kick off another round of
               | legislation (that, in a sadly predictable pattern, seems
               | to be stuck once again).
               | 
               | [0] https://www.axios.com/electoral-college-by-vote-per-
               | capita-4...
        
               | jdmichal wrote:
               | Here in Florida, we got so tired of the stalling that we
               | wrote medical marijuana into a 2016 constitutional
               | amendment initiative, since that's the only way to get
               | something approaching a law without legislative
               | cooperation.
        
               | alasdair_ wrote:
               | The original system for the Electoral College (where some
               | electors from a state could vote differently than others)
               | made sense. So did having the vice president be the
               | runner up (before the 14th Amendment) - this is why the
               | VP getting the ability to break ties in the senate made
               | more sense too.
               | 
               | The current EC implementation is terrible however. Small
               | states already get massive overrepresentation in the
               | Senate, they don't need a second system to weigh in their
               | favor.
               | 
               | I very much want to see one person, one vote, with
               | approval voting (i.e. pick ALL the people you're happy to
               | see being president, the winner gets the job) being used
               | for presidential elections.
        
           | jimnotgym wrote:
           | I think it may be argued that holding referendums is not
           | necessarily democratic. Referendums are not historically part
           | of the UK electoral system. There have only ever been three
           | UK wide referendums, two on Europe and one on the electoral
           | system. We have none of the safeguards, of super-majorities
           | for instance, that some countries have.
           | 
           | It could be argued that having failed to get your own way in
           | the established electoral system, inventing a new unstoppable
           | electoral system is undemocratic.
        
           | oblio wrote:
           | Minor nitpick: tenet, not tenant.
           | 
           | Otherwise, agreed :-)
        
         | rsynnott wrote:
         | It's not an argument against democracy, it's an argument for
         | sensible government.
         | 
         | It's a very, very bad idea to hold a referendum along the lines
         | of "vote no for the status quo, vote yes for, erm, something,
         | we'll let the Yes side make up some stuff about unicorns and
         | cricket playing vicars for you". The vote should have been for
         | a realistic deal, with article 50 notification contingent on
         | having agreed said deal in principle. People had _no_ idea what
         | they were voting for, and that's entirely Cameron's
         | government's fault.
         | 
         | That doesn't mean that referendums are necessarily bad in
         | principle, though.
         | 
         | In Ireland we have quite a few of these, but generally the
         | government will say what it intends to do with a Yes result.
         | When people voted yes on the abortion referendum, say, they
         | weren't just voting for "more abortions, please" in the
         | abstract, they were told ahead of time what would happen if
         | they did vote yes.
        
           | ipqk wrote:
           | If people are generally upset about state of things for
           | possibly various different reasons, and you only give them
           | one lever to pull to "fix it", they're going to pull that
           | lever.
           | 
           | And that's how you get Brexit.
        
             | petre wrote:
             | It was Cameron bluffing and the lever was the nuclear
             | option. If it went the other way, he'd probably have more
             | leverage to negotiate. Well, surprise. Too bad. I already
             | miss the poor buggers. If Scotland holds another
             | referendum, they're pretty much screwed because Northern
             | Ireland is going to be next. I hope Nigel is happy now.
        
               | rsynnott wrote:
               | Well, also, Cameron would never have expected to be in a
               | position to hold the referendum. He made it as an
               | election promise in an election where pretty much no-one
               | expected a Tory majority; at best they were expected to
               | be part of a coalition. Then things changed, and here we
               | are...
        
             | tomxor wrote:
             | I have heard people explain (in person) this as the reason
             | they personally voted yes!
             | 
             | I think this is one of the three major factors that got it
             | anywhere near a 50/50 outcome: 1. Voting on something as
             | vauge as can be, 2. lies and manipulation, 3. single lever
             | problem
        
           | dageshi wrote:
           | The EU doesn't allow negotiation on withdrawal until article
           | 50 is invoked. There was no ability to negotiate any deal of
           | any kind until the UK confirmed it was leaving.
        
             | jimnotgym wrote:
             | The UK could have asked for several different deals and got
             | them. EEA would have taken zero negotiation, for instance.
        
               | dageshi wrote:
               | I don't believe there's any mechanism to go from full EU
               | membership to the EEA when you're already a member? That
               | is more or less the same thing as negotiating to leave
               | before article 50 is invoked.
               | 
               | I'm not entirely sure what you're referring too?
        
               | samsonradu wrote:
               | Why is it granted they would have gotten an EEA-like
               | deal?
        
           | [deleted]
        
         | cultus wrote:
         | To me it's an argument that there isn't enough democracy.
         | Brexit would never had happened if the British political class
         | (including Labour and libdems) were not totally hostile to the
         | interests of the British working class over a period of several
         | decades. When a government isn't responsive to the people, bad
         | stuff happens.
        
         | mhh__ wrote:
         | The thing with Brexit is that the referendum itself was
         | unbelievably stupid, not democracy as a concept.
         | 
         | If you are going to have a referendum it should require a
         | supermajority because the turnout is never going to be good
         | enough for a real consensus.
        
         | darth_avocado wrote:
         | It's not an argument against Democracy. It's an argument
         | against how much of the decision making for a country needs to
         | be a popularity contest.
         | 
         | If you left everything up to the public, there would be 0
         | taxes, free education, healthcare, housing and monthly
         | paychecks of a $1000 for everyone. But that's a terrible idea,
         | and it doesn't get implemented anywhere, because you literally
         | choose people to represent the population and to make sensible
         | decisions.
        
           | alasdair_ wrote:
           | The Saudis and a few other resource-rich countries
           | essentially have this for citizens.
           | 
           | I still wouldn't want to live there.
        
           | vagrantJin wrote:
           | > But that's a terrible idea, and it doesn't get implemented
           | anywhere, because you literally choose people to represent
           | the population and to make sensible decisions.
           | 
           | Haha. My beloved country has free healthcare, education and
           | government social grants for women mostly and a lot of free
           | actual legit housing for the poor. Don't get me wrong, the
           | whole thing is crashing in slowmo for a few decades now
           | because we really don't have anyone driving the vehicle but
           | Jesus. I'll never abondon ship though.
           | 
           | </RANT>
        
             | darth_avocado wrote:
             | None of that comes with 0 taxes and that was the whole
             | premise.
        
             | thesuitonym wrote:
             | You missed the 0 taxes though.
        
         | throwaway0a5e wrote:
         | One man's "cutting off your nose to spite your face" is another
         | man's "sticking to your ideological guns even when you make
         | less money that way".
         | 
         | If anything being able to occasionally execute on controversial
         | things like this seems like an argument in favor of democracy.
         | How often have we heard of X or Y is easier in a dictatorship
         | because the approximate half of the population that disagree
         | can just be steamrolled and progress can happen without them?
         | To me things like Brexit are proof that democracy can be just
         | as versatile when it wants to.
        
           | andrewflnr wrote:
           | Broadly, yes, but I don't see the ideology in play in Brexit.
        
             | throwaway0a5e wrote:
             | People wanted out (for a variety of reasons, some better
             | than others). They got out (with some find print). They're
             | gonna pay for it. But nothing is ever free. It might be
             | stupid, but the people get what they want even if it's
             | stupid. Welcome to democracy, the system that sucks less
             | than all the alternatives.
        
               | andrewflnr wrote:
               | That rather confirms my point.
        
             | [deleted]
        
             | gorgoiler wrote:
             | Ideology wasn't thin in the ground for either the leftist
             | Brexiteers, "Nationalists", paternalistic One Nation
             | stories or for the _Ever Closer Union_ lot.
             | 
             | The main complaint about the whole process was that it was
             | far too ideological instead of being benignly technocratic.
        
         | twblalock wrote:
         | It's an argument against referendums, especially when they only
         | require a simple majority required to pass. The Brexit
         | referendum passed with about 52% of votes in favor -- not
         | exactly a landslide.
         | 
         | Really big changes ought to have a higher bar than just a
         | simple majority. A 2/3 majority is a much higher bar to
         | overcome, and in the case of a referendum, it would mean the
         | result represents the consensus view of the people, not just
         | one side in a bitterly divided close fight.
        
           | vidarh wrote:
           | I've long argued referendums ought to require supermajorities
           | based on how easy the change voted on is to _undo_ and an
           | assessment of the extent of the change. It encourages the
           | side that wants change to aim to find ways to minimise the
           | change they ask for and maximise the viability of reversal to
           | lower the bar for the vote.
           | 
           | Achieving a reasonably objective assessment of what the
           | required majority should be would be very hard, though.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | Animats wrote:
       | They had two years to get ready. Of course a UK company should
       | not be shipping to Italy and back to the UK. The UK is now
       | outside the European Union. There are trade barriers now. That's
       | what Brexit was all about. Leaving the European Union.
        
         | acdha wrote:
         | This is technically true but remember that there was a long,
         | protracted period where Brexit proponents were dissembling
         | about what would happen. I'd expect this to happen for anyone
         | who either believed them or thought that the obvious risks
         | would cause people to stop playing politics and come up with a
         | better plan. It's not reasonable to expect every business,
         | large or small, to have developed a range of contingency plans.
        
         | Finnucane wrote:
         | But it's not really a UK company shipping to Italy, it's an
         | Italian company that owns UK factory shipping to Italy. With a
         | single market, it probably made sense to Selle to have
         | distribution flow from Italy. It's not their fault the UK is
         | being an arse.
        
           | johannes1234321 wrote:
           | Right, they have a large distribution center in Italy, where
           | they process all orders across Europe and beyond. Putting a
           | distribution center into UK wasn't useful pre-Brexist as
           | orders might contain items from different lines and a larger
           | center is more efficient. Post-Brexit the market could be too
           | small.
        
           | hibbelig wrote:
           | Well it has been up to everyone to prepare for the new rules.
           | I get that details have not been known until recently. But it
           | was clear from the start that moving goods around like this
           | will not work.
        
             | toast0 wrote:
             | There was lots of hopeful talk about UK contining to be in
             | the single market. I think I heard that up through spring
             | of 2020.
             | 
             | Even assuming it was clear that what they were doing
             | wouldn't work, I don't think it was necessarily clear what
             | would work. And it may not have been cost effective to
             | change until necessary.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | polar wrote:
         | Also, this is a barrier that the EU intends to introduce for
         | themselves as well (postponed to July 2021).
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | rsynnott wrote:
         | > They had two years to get ready
         | 
         | For the deal agreed on the 24th of December?
         | 
         | I mean, they had two years to get ready for something entirely
         | nebulous. It could have been some sort of Norway+ deal, where
         | they'd have had to do nothing, or it could have been no deal,
         | in which case they'd probably have had to close the British
         | factory, or anything in between. In both of those extremes, and
         | many of the in-betweens, any preparation for the current
         | situation would of course have been futile.
        
         | tw04 wrote:
         | >Of course a UK company should not be shipping to Italy and
         | back to the UK.
         | 
         | They aren't a UK company, they're an Italian company. Per the
         | article it was sold in 2002.
         | 
         | == Owned since 2002 by Italian bicycle saddles firm Selle
         | Royale, Brooks England's suspension of orders from UK customers
         | highlights one of the impacts of Brexit on trade between the UK
         | and the EU. ===
         | 
         | >The UK is now outside the European Union. There are trade
         | barriers now.
         | 
         | The agreement was signed on December 25th and is 1200 pages
         | long. It's ridiculous to assume that a business could be ready
         | in 6 days for a 1200 page agreement... this is just further
         | incompetence on the part of the politicians running the show in
         | the UK.
         | 
         | == But the fact that the EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement,
         | which runs to 1,200 pages, was only signed on Christmas Eve has
         | given businesses little time to assess the new rules and adapt
         | their practices and systems to them. ==
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | jacobr1 wrote:
           | > They aren't a UK company, they're an Italian company. Per
           | the article it was sold in 2002.
           | 
           | That isn't clear. I suspect they still are a UK company, with
           | 100% ownership from the parent Italian company. The
           | distinction is relevant (if true) in exactly cases just like
           | this. The alternative would be a sale of assets of the former
           | child company and filing a dissolution of the same company.
           | They likely didn't do that, but might have. This means that
           | probably can restructure their business so that UK orders
           | stay within the UK subsidiary.
        
         | ben_w wrote:
         | The Trade and Cooperation Agreement was _first_ published on
         | the 24th of December. That's 11 days, not two years, even if
         | they worked through the Christmas break (and why would their EU
         | counterparts care enough to help them with that? It's a problem
         | for the Brits, the Italians can sell to the rest of the Single
         | Market.)
         | 
         | And don't try to say they should've seen it coming, the UK
         | government has consistently claimed everything would be
         | amazing.
         | 
         | https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/agreements-reache...
        
       | Animats wrote:
       | (By the way, HN is taking about 20 seconds to process a posting
       | today.)
        
         | southeastern wrote:
         | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25635115
         | 
         | Here's a HN thread about this
        
       | lanevorockz wrote:
       | temporarily temporarily temporarily temporarily
        
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